IRC log for #perl6, 2005-10-31

Time	Nick	Message
00:01	dduncan	I for one welcome the new metamodel integration
00:01		Amnesiac has joined #perl6
00:06	autrijus	...and concurrency too
00:06	* autrijus	commits s17 early draft
00:06	autrijus	sub bomb is atomic { ... }; sub path is critical { ... };
00:07	eric256	lol
00:07	rafl_	:-)
00:07	autrijus	the hs runcore will get a head start
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00:07	azuroth	I just changed the pods and kwik... is the one on pugscode.org automatically converted to html or something?
00:08	autrijus	as it's all from GHC.Conc ;)
00:08	autrijus	but liz also got uncountable numbers of Thread::* modules on CPAN to emulate this
00:08	autrijus	so p5 runtime shouldn't be _that_ bad either
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00:08	autrijus	azuroth: which url?
00:09	azuroth	hmm. http://search.cpan.org/dist/Pe[…]lib/pugs/hack.pod - it's linked to from pugscode's index
00:09	autrijus	ahh.
00:09	autrijus	yeah it's pod2html of the latst release
00:09	autrijus	so your fix will wait till 6.28.0
00:10	azuroth	ahh, okay
00:10	Khisanth	hmm how long does it usually take to compile ghc?
00:10	svnbot6	r7787 \| autrijus++ \| * S17 draft, sketch notes, with Liz
00:10	svnbot6	r7788 \| azuroth++ \| Fixed some grammaticos and wrongness in documentation
00:11	autrijus	Khisanth: if you insist... you can do that. on my laptop is 5hr
00:11	Khisanth	!
00:12	eric256	(grammaticos and wrongness)++ lol
00:12	azuroth	;-p
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00:17	azuroth	what are some easy TODOs? ^_^
00:18	autrijus	in hs space?
00:18	azuroth	yeah - or anything, really
00:18	eric256	you can help link tests to documentation ;)
00:19	autrijus	I'm actually going to sleep soonish -- ask the channel for ideas :)
00:19	autrijus	I can use help implementing both the conc and objsp stuff, but more details tomorrow :)
00:19	azuroth	okay, cool
00:19	azuroth	link tests to documentation, eh?
00:20	eric256	yea. L<S12/"Heading" /regex to specific spot in paragraph/> tests.pugscode.org
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00:21	stevan	autrijus: I just finished reading the "Ruby in C" section of the PickAxe book,.. it was actually very helpful,... (and much cleaner than XS)
00:21	autrijus	good.
00:21	autrijus	and it would make sense to compare to YARV arch
00:21	stevan	yes
00:21	stevan	very much so
00:21	autrijus	which is like, distilled version of the tree reduction semantics
00:21	autrijus	(ruby was tree reduct like pugs-vanilla and p5)
00:21	autrijus	but they are going bytecode as well
00:22	stevan	ah
00:22	stevan	bytecode is so old school though ;)
00:22	autrijus	ASTs are fine for semantics stuff and static analysis
00:22	azuroth	eric256: where can I find S12? ;-p
00:23	autrijus	but for minimal runtime vocab, you want something more restrictive, and stack bytecode is one of the many comparably restrictive ways to achieve that
00:23	eric256	either http://feather.perl6.nl/~eric2[…]t_index/Synopsis/ or http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/synopsis.html
00:23	autrijus	not doing that will result in runtime bloat, like our dear p5vm
00:23	autrijus	;)
00:23	autrijus	(aka, "too many primitives")
00:24	stevan	autrijus: so should I rethink the P6::Objectspace::Core stuff?
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00:24	autrijus	stevan: I thought you were going to rethink it anyway :)
00:24	stevan	yes, but I guess I am asking how radically I am going to rethink it :)
00:24	azuroth	ahh, ok. thanks
00:24	* azuroth	away
00:24	stevan	should I lean more towards bytecode??
00:25	autrijus	stevan: no, I think minimal function call API works better than bytecode
00:25	autrijus	since they are isomorphic
00:25	stevan	ok
00:25	autrijus	but easier to reason with
00:25	autrijus	sorta like the ANF<->SSA duality
00:25	autrijus	also, because we are not really writing VMs.
00:25	autrijus	it would be very much not fun if we have to write either YARV or Parrot.
00:25	autrijus	;)
00:25	stevan	yes, at least not yet ;)
00:25	autrijus	nah, not going to :)
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00:26	autrijus	we enslave^Wdominate^Wtarget VMs instead
00:26	* stevan	ponders writing in PIR again,.. then slaps himself
00:26	autrijus	maybe you can invent a minimal notation for PIR
00:26	autrijus	but then, why not just take the JS, Pike, IO, or whatever notation
00:27	autrijus	(that nests functions and handles objs)
00:27	stevan	:)
00:27	autrijus	but really, the effort would amount to be the same as calling a set of p5 space core funcs
00:27	autrijus	so I fail to see the gain :)
00:28	stevan	so do you see a usefulness for anything in Core::, or should I svk rm it all ?
00:28	* eric256	failes to see what either of you are even talking about. lol ;)
00:28	stevan	eric256: ObjectSpace :)
00:28	autrijus	eric256: it's in docs/notes/object_space.txt
00:28	* eric256	ahhh...and rolles his eyes. ;)
00:28	stevan	:D
00:29	autrijus	stevan: the casting stuff are fine
00:29	autrijus	base type enumeration and coercion rules
00:29	autrijus	those we can't do without anyway
00:29	autrijus	so I don't think they need to go
00:29	autrijus	they are the intrinsics
00:29	stevan	they need to go? or stay?
00:29	autrijus	still makes sense Perl6::Val really
00:29	stevan	sorry didnt see "dont"
00:29	autrijus	:p
00:29	stevan	so maybe I just assume these things are my VM primatives then?
00:30	stevan	or at least thin wrappers around them
00:30	autrijus	sure, like the ruby "val" and "num" etc
00:30	stevan	yeah
00:30	autrijus	you don't need to reason about them at instruction/coreprim level
00:30	autrijus	they are just there, aye
00:33	autrijus	closing thoughts of the day:
00:34	autrijus	class Hash { method circumfix:<( )> { say 'Whee!' } }; %ENV(42);
00:34	* autrijus	waves goodnight :)
00:34	stevan	nite :)
00:34	mugwump	shouldn't that be post_circumfix? ;)
00:34	autrijus	riight ;)
00:35	autrijus	postcircumfix
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00:39	svnbot6	r7789 \| eric256++ \| Test-Catalog: Now highlights multi line tests correctly.
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00:50	eric256	hey...i know i can use perl5 modules in perl6....supposidly...anyone know how?
00:50	eric256	nm. lol
00:50	rafl_	use perl5:Foo?
00:51	eric256	yea i kept trying perl5- ...didn't it used to be that?
00:51	rafl_	Not sure. I only know that pugs implements perl5:.
00:54	eric256	do you know the new 'use lib?
00:56	misc	eric256: use.perl.org/~clkao/journal/24897 i think ?
00:57	eric256	misc .... rafl had it right.. much have changed since then
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01:03	eric256	Juerd: ping
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01:12	r0nny_	re
01:13	r0nny_	rafl_: ping?
01:13	rafl_	r0nny_: pong
01:13	r0nny_	got svk now
01:14	r0nny_	kinda lost in the manpage - cant see, how to get a p4 repo with this
01:17	rafl_	mirror p4:userhost:1666://path/... DEPOTPATH
01:18	r0nny_	hmm
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01:32	* eric256	has to ask
01:32	eric256	what is p4?
01:33	rafl_	Some non-free RCS.
01:44	tewk	p4 is Perforce
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03:19	eric256	hmmm. zip is documented to use ; instead of , .... anyone know if that has officialy changed. pugs supports , not ; :)
03:21	luqui	no, zip really does use ;
03:21	luqui	but pugs doesn't support it
03:21	luqui	so pugs uses ,
03:21	eric256	gotcha. ;) why would zip want ; instead of , now that , doesn't flatten
03:23	luqui	probably: zip(1,2,3;4,5,6)
03:23	luqui	and zip(f(); g()), so f and g can be called in list context instead of scalar context
03:24	eric256	; forces list context?
03:24	luqui	not necessarily (actually maybe, I'm not sure)
03:25	eric256	the first one would be zip( (1..3), (4..6) );
03:25	luqui	but , definitely doesn't allow list context
03:25	luqui	because zip(f(), g()), if f and g were called in list context, they would have to be part of the same list
03:25	eric256	true. hmmm ; for something other than the end of a statment seems...weird. ;) but i guess if thats the way it is, then i'll deal. ;)
03:25	luqui	we use it as the "greater comma"
03:25	luqui	my $matrix = [1,0;0,1]
03:25	eric256	okay....second question. why doens't pugs support it yet?
03:26	luqui	nobody's written it yet?
03:26	luqui	and because it's not quite specced
03:26	luqui	or it wasn't until a week ago
03:26	eric256	just wondered if there was some current barrier
03:26	eric256	lol. gotcha.
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03:33	stevan_	autrijus: when you backlog,.. this is kind of neat to play with http://www.atdot.net/yc/compile
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04:29	Khisanth	heh so perl has three commas now? :)
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04:39	dduncan	what are the three commas?
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04:39	dduncan	and don't say '=>' because that isn't a comma
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05:48	pantie1	bouncey bouncey?
05:48	pantie1	http://www.livejournal.com/users/clavice_beato/
05:49	pantie1	clavice and I are space amigos
05:50	pantie1	will you be our space amigos?
05:50	Khisanth	?eval package Foo;
05:50	evalbot_7789	undef
05:51	Khisanth	?eval package Foo; sub foo { say "foo" } package Main; Foo::foo;
05:51	evalbot_7789	foo bool::true
05:52	pantie1	fool, bool true!
05:52	pantie1	mr T says...
05:53	Khisanth	?eval package Foo; sub foo { say caller().package } package Main; Foo::foo;
05:53	evalbot_7789	Main bool::true
05:53	Khisanth	?eval $?PUGS_VERSION
05:53	evalbot_7789	\"Perl6 User\'s Golfing System, version 6.2.10, October 10, 2005 (r7789)"
05:54	pantie1	?eval $?OS
05:54	evalbot_7789	\"linux"
05:54	pantie1	?eval $*OS
05:54	evalbot_7789	\undef
06:03	dduncan	who is this joker?
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06:19	geoffb	good morning, nothingmuch
06:23	geoffb	... and goodnight, all
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06:45	nothingmuch	hhi ho geoffb
06:45	nothingmuch	sleep tight
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08:22	xinming	?eval exit
08:22	evalbot_7789	Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&exit"
08:22	xinming	:-P
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08:31	xinming	iblechbot: ping
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10:39	wolverian	?eval ("a".."c").end
10:39	evalbot_7789	2
10:40	liz6	?eval ('a'..'c').end
10:40	evalbot_7789	2
10:41	ods15	?eval 'a'..'c'
10:41	wolverian	(just checking if it really was .end and not .last or something)
10:41	evalbot_7789	("a", "b", "c")
10:41	ods15	?eval 'a'..'aa'
10:41	evalbot_7789	("a",)
10:41	ods15	?eval 'a'..'aaa'
10:41	evalbot_7789	("a",)
10:41	ods15	heh
10:41	ods15	?eval 'aa'..'ba'
10:41	evalbot_7789	("aa", "ab", "ac", "ad", "ae", "af", "ag", "ah", "ai", "aj", "ak", "al", "am", "an", "ao", "ap", "aq", "ar", "as", "at", "au", "av", "aw", "ax", "ay", "az", "ba")
10:41	ods15	?eval 'a1'..'b1'
10:41	evalbot_7789	("a1", "a2", "a3", "a4", "a5", "a6", "a7", "a8", "a9", "b0", "b1")
10:42	ods15	?eval '01'..'10'
10:42	evalbot_7789	("01", "02", "03", "04", "05", "06", "07", "08", "09", "10")
10:42	ods15	?eval '1'..'10'
10:42	evalbot_7789	("1",)
10:42	ods15	cool...
10:42	ods15	bye
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10:43	wilx	Omg, does Perl6 read minds? :)
10:43	wolverian	yes.
10:44	liz6	?eval 1..10
10:44	evalbot_7789	(1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)
10:44	liz6	?eval 1.."10"
10:44	evalbot_7789	(1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)
10:44	liz6	?eval "1"..10
10:44	evalbot_7789	("1",)
10:45	wolverian	that's a bug. :)
10:46	wolverian	hmm. perhaps $obj.sleep( until => "readable" ); # random thought while reading S17 draft
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10:47	liz6	keeping Damians PBP in mind, maybe:
10:48	liz6	$obj.sleep( while => "not_readable" );
10:49	wolverian	hmm.
10:49	wolverian	$obj.sleep_until: { $obj.readable }; # flexible?
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10:51	wolverian	er, although that's just the same as '1 until $obj.readable' which is pretty horrid
10:51	liz6	it's the until
10:51	liz6	that seems to be hard on people's minds
10:51	liz6	and therefor not recommended in Perl Best Practices...
10:52	wolverian	right. I haven't read PBP yet, actually :)
10:53	liz6	recommended...
10:53	dduncan	I've read it cover to cover ... highly recommended
10:54	wolverian	I'll try to get my hands on it.
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10:54	azuroth	evening
10:54	dduncan	I find it the second most useful perl book of them all, with 'programming perl' being the first
10:55	dduncan	at least at my current stage of experience
10:55	azuroth	what book is this?
10:55	dduncan	perl best practices
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10:56	kgftr\|konobi	pbp++ # lots of useful stuff in there, such as indirect method calls being very very bad!
10:56	dduncan	of course, people in other situations will likely find different books more useful ... such as Peter Scott's on dealing with other people's horrid code
10:57	dduncan	or the 'learning' ones
10:57	dduncan	or the domain specific ones
10:57	dduncan	but the classic camel and pbp are my own personal most useful atm
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10:59	broquaint	PBP = Sensibility distilled.
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10:59	dduncan	indeed ... quite likely to become a defacto standard methinks
10:59	dduncan	at least I'm contributing to that status
11:00	dduncan	as all my new cpan work is or will be mostly conformant
11:00	azuroth	I'll have to read it ...
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11:01	metaperl	has anyone convinced Larry to allow /* */ as a multi-line comment for p6?
11:01	wolverian	I hate ->get/set accessors. (Class::Std.)
11:01	dduncan	don't know
11:02	wolverian	metaperl, not yet. :)
11:02	dduncan	I like get/set accessors
11:02	wolverian	I like lvalue accessors/mutators.
11:02	wolverian	(albeit they suck in perl5.)
11:02	dduncan	I never used them in my life
11:03	wolverian	it's the way of the future! :) (C# and Perl6 both use them.)
11:03	liz6	lvalue accessors are not recommended in PBP
11:03	wolverian	liz6, I know. I understand it's not because of any inherent fault in them, but in the implementation of them in perl5, though.
11:03	wolverian	I might be wrong, since I haven't read PBP.
11:03	dduncan	they're fine if the values in question can contain any value at all and no error checking is necessary
11:04	wolverian	dduncan, why? you can easily add type checking.
11:04	wolverian	dduncan, see, for an example, Attribute::Property on CPAN.
11:04	broquaint	I think the idea behind not having multi-line comments, metaperl, is that if your comment is taking up multiple lines then it should be in the documentation, hence =pod/=cutthe best way to facilitate multi-line comments.
11:04	dduncan	oh yes, you mean in perl 6
11:04	wolverian	dduncan, I mean in both perl5 and perl6.
11:04	metaperl	broquaint: i see
11:04	broquaint	That's just my theory, mind you.
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11:04	dduncan	but in that case, you haven't actually got a bare lvalue accessor, as it is wrapped in an object
11:05	wolverian	dduncan, a closure. :)
11:05	dduncan	maybe its just the syntax you like?
11:05	wolverian	of course it's just the syntax. they are exactly equivalent in other ways to get/set
11:06	liz6	wolverian: you're right
11:06	broquaint	Not quite, wolverian, as in lvalue you're just boshing a value into a attribute but in the accessor method style you've got paramters and arguments and binding and so forth.
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11:07	wolverian	broquaint, true, but if it's that complex it shouldn't be an accessor/mutator anymore, but a generic method.
11:07	dduncan	and there's the error checking thing thats different with vanilla perl 5
11:07	wolverian	dduncan, yes.
11:07	dduncan	and that's mainly what pbp was against
11:08	broquaint	Fair enough, wolverian.
11:08	wolverian	dduncan, that's certainly understandable.
11:08	wolverian	dduncan, but CPAN is there for us to use. :)
11:08	broquaint	But, to be fair, PBP is a sensible approach to programming in perl, and programming in perl isn't always sensible :)
11:09	dduncan	of course, pbp's ground rule is to get people to do things by choice, rather than by habit
11:09	wolverian	always following the rules is not -Ofun :)
11:09	broquaint	Or should I say the programming with perl isn't always sensible.
11:09	dduncan	if you have an explicit reason to do something against its recommendations, that's still going with its intent
11:09	dduncan	and using a cpan module to add whatever is such a conscious choice
11:10	liz6	indeed
11:13	dduncan	good night, past 3am here and all ...
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11:13	metaperl	good night D
11:14	liz6	nightynight... just after noon here... ;-)
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11:33	xinming	19:33 here.
11:33	liz6	isn't this great: a truly global effort!
11:34	xinming	but too few commits. :/
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12:09	Juerd	IRC pings are so annoying, and such a waste of time.
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12:10	Juerd	Why do people insist on "$nick: ping", waitfor(pong), "$nick: $question" instead of just beginning with "$nick: $question"?
12:10	Juerd	02:08 < eric256> Juerd: ping
12:10	Juerd	But he is offline now.
12:11	Juerd	If he had asked a question, I'd be able to email him an answer.
12:11	webmind	because someone wants a more direct conversation ?
12:11	* Juerd	assumes he wanted to ask something, not socialize.
12:11	webmind	could be impatience
12:12	Juerd	afk
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12:33	integral	but then there's the people who ask a question, and then ping all the people who answered them last time ...
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13:06	broquaint	?eval my $_ = "say q/things/;" eval
13:06	evalbot_7789	Error: unexpected "e" expecting operator, ";" or end of input
13:06	broquaint	?eval my $_ = "say q/things/;"; eval
13:06	evalbot_7789	undef
13:06	broquaint	?eval my $_ = "q/things/;"; eval
13:06	evalbot_7789	undef
13:07	broquaint	?eval $?PUGS_VERSION
13:07	evalbot_7789	\"Perl6 User\'s Golfing System, version 6.2.10, October 10, 2005 (r7789)"
13:07	broquaint	Hrm.
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13:41	svnbot6	r7790 \| autrijus++ \| * S17: Incoporate suggestion from Austin Frank; s/wait/join/; timer; continuation
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14:05	svnbot6	r7791 \| autrijus++ \| * "is throttled" trait
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14:15	Limbic_Region	salutations liz6
14:16	liz6	hi L~R!
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14:18	* Juerd	wonders if liz6, like perl6, was designed from scratch
14:18	Juerd	And if she's implemented with Haskell :)
14:19	liz6	I'm implemented with Freckles, actually...
14:19	Juerd	Is that turing complete? :)
14:20	liz6	Probably not...
14:20	Limbic_Region	liz6 how is working with autrijus?
14:20	liz6	I always feel like I'm slowing down Autrijus...
14:20	liz6	but sometimes that's a good thing...
14:20	* Juerd	can imagine
14:20	Juerd	He's incredibly fast :)
14:21	liz6	even faster than you, Juerd... ;-)
14:21	Juerd	Certainly
14:23	autrijus	yo :)
14:24	Juerd	Is that like io? :)
14:24	autrijus	driving fast doesn't matter much if you don't know where to go
14:24	autrijus	and liz6 always know where to go, on S17 :)
14:24	Limbic_Region	isn't S17 supposed to cover things like coroutines as well?
14:24	autrijus	Limbic_Region: yes.
14:24	autrijus	and we'll get there
14:24	Limbic_Region	good
14:24	Juerd	Nice metaphor
14:25	autrijus	which is also why we're using Concurrency instead of Threading
14:25	autrijus	as the synopsis name
14:25	autrijus	because coros are just not very threaded
14:25	Limbic_Region	right - coros are fancy continuations
14:26	autrijus	if by "fancy" you mean "supressed and maimed", yes
14:26	liz6	;-)
14:26	Limbic_Region	hmmm - no, that's not what I meant
14:26	Limbic_Region	continuations only work from 1 point right?
14:26	Limbic_Region	while a coroutine can continue and then stop again
14:26	Limbic_Region	?
14:27	autrijus	er no, continuations are the most general of all
14:27	autrijus	in coro you can only yield into your caller's continuation
14:27	autrijus	while if you have first class continuation, you can invoke from anywhere to anywhere with anything
14:27	Limbic_Region	ok, but you can yield mutliple times in multiple places
14:28	autrijus	sure, so if you have cont, you can implement coro as simply passing the cont into the coro
14:28	autrijus	and yield would be invoking the cont, passing it as argument the cont of the coro
14:28	Limbic_Region	well, implementation is above my head
14:28	autrijus	but yeah, coro is more accessible.
14:29	autrijus	cont is basically goto() that takes a value and preserves call stack.
14:29	autrijus	very hard to use sensibly.
14:29	autrijus	s/preserve/restore/
14:29	Limbic_Region	right
14:29	Limbic_Region	which is why I saw coros as being more fancy
14:29	Limbic_Region	perhaps wrong word
14:29	autrijus	more "dressed up"
14:29	autrijus	nod
14:30	liz6	need to prepare for some $work, later!
14:30		liz6 has left
14:30	autrijus	no, I guess "fancy" is the correct word. it's just my mind is in the direction of "the more abstract, bare and generic the thing is, the sexier it is"
14:30	obra	There is such a thing as too abstract and generic
14:30	* autrijus	resists a joke on naked singularities
14:30	autrijus	there is.
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14:30	Limbic_Region	of course, these aren't true coros in the sense that Knuth postulated about
14:31	autrijus	obra: looked at the S17 we committed 5mins ago?
14:31	Limbic_Region	we still have a single processor simulating work in tandem
14:31	autrijus	it's not at all there. just things that we agree should be there
14:33	Limbic_Region	autrijus - out of curiosity, will you be able to use conts and coros in places where goto's aren't allowed in p5 (body of loops that require initialization for instance)?
14:33	obra	autrijus: I haven't looked in the last 5 minutes ;)
14:34	autrijus	Limbic_Region: yes, of course!
14:34	autrijus	that's their entire point.
14:35	autrijus	I'm actually thinking about removing the Stmt form in the PIL tree, as everything is really just an expression; you should be able to take continuations in middle of statement
14:35	autrijus	and, so to speak, goto() into middle of expression.
14:35	Limbic_Region	well sure, but when I first brought up the question on the list it didn't sound like there was much interest in using them to their full potential
14:36	* obra	starts to imagine using a VM hook to use continuations to do backups of long-running processes
14:36	obra	or to do realtime loadbalancing at the process level.
14:36	autrijus	right.
14:37	obra	That way you can move one runaway process to each CPU and take down EVERYTHING ;)
14:37	* autrijus	praises squeak for demonstrating the viability
14:37	autrijus	yeah, mobile code, etc
14:37	obra	you beat my fingers by 10 sec
14:37	autrijus	Limbic_Region: it takes education :)
14:38	Limbic_Region	autrijus - good, I haven't lost faith yet ;-) The other question I asked in that thread were the same questions Dan highlighted in http://www.sidhe.org/~dan/blog[…]hives/000178.html
14:38	Limbic_Region	there seemed to be a lot of disagreement amongst @larry at the time
14:39	autrijus	yeah, but in 2.5 yrs, things changed
14:39	Limbic_Region	IIRC, between Luke and Damian
14:39	Limbic_Region	that wasn't 2.5 years ago - it was this past May
14:39	autrijus	oh. that was between lazy gather vs explicit coro
14:39	autrijus	I think we need both ;)
14:40	Limbic_Region	well that too
14:40	Limbic_Region	but still not what I was talking about
14:40	autrijus	puzzled
14:40	Limbic_Region	parameters
14:40	* Limbic_Region	tried to stuff too much into a single post I think
14:42	Limbic_Region	perlbot nopaste
14:42	perlbot	Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
14:42	pasteling	"Limbic_Region" at 129.33.119.12 pasted "Parameters and Coroutines" (10 lines, 165B) at http://sial.org/pbot/14024
14:43	Limbic_Region	autrijus - I was talking about the behavior we would choose for that link
14:43	Limbic_Region	there is more than 1 way to do it
14:43	autrijus	yeah.
14:43	PerlJam	Limbic_Region: and how would you do it?
14:44	autrijus	coro foo ($a) { yield $a; yield $a+1; yield $a+2 }; (foo(1), foo(2), foo(1), foo(2))
14:44	autrijus	?eval coro foo ($a) { yield $a; yield $a+1; yield $a+2 }; (foo(1), foo(2), foo(1), foo(2))
14:44	evalbot_7791	(1, 2, 3, 1)
14:44	Limbic_Region	PerlJam - I indicated we should try to emulate whatever is closest to other languages that natively support coroutines
14:45	PerlJam	autrijus: the $a doesn't get rebound?
14:45	autrijus	PerlJam: it does only at full reentrance
14:45	Limbic_Region	the concept was pretty foreign to me before I started reading about continuations and coroutines - I saw the potential, asked about it as well as semantics for parameters - and saw the thread go blammo
14:46	autrijus	I think that's what iblech is having at js too, not very sure
14:46	PerlJam	autrijus: then what's the point of passing a parameter the 2nd and 3rd time?
14:47	autrijus	PerlJam: there's no point... I guess you can raise a warning?
14:47	leo	autrijus: it does only at full reentrance -> (1, 2, 3, 2) ?
14:47	Limbic_Region	autrijus - there may be a point
14:47	autrijus	leo: first one is +0
14:47	Limbic_Region	depends on perspective
14:47	autrijus	oh wait
14:47	autrijus	should be 2 then.
14:47	* autrijus	ponders what's what's going on
14:47	Limbic_Region	when Knuth first proposed the concept of coroutines - it was intended to be two processes working in parallel (but in implementation we only emulate them)
14:48	PerlJam	autrijus: I bet the first yield is "skipped"
14:48	PerlJam	(not on the first invocation obviously)
14:48	autrijus	?eval coro foo ($a) { yield $a; yield $a+1; yield $a+2 }; (foo(1), foo(2), foo(1), foo(2), foo(2), foo(2))
14:48	evalbot_7791	(1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3)
14:48	Limbic_Region	adding a second or third parameter each time it is invoked could be thought of as giving new information to the parallel running process
14:48	autrijus	?eval coro foo ($a) { yield $a; yield $a+1; yield $a+2 }; (foo(1), foo(2), foo(1243), foo(9), foo(2), foo(2))
14:48	evalbot_7791	(1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3)
14:48	autrijus	PerlJam: it's never rebound.
14:48	PerlJam	oh, hmm.
14:48	autrijus	very bad implementation, it seems.
14:48	PerlJam	indeed :)
14:48	autrijus	blame... autrijus I guess. iblech does it differently
14:48	autrijus	you'd get 1,2,3,9,10,11 I think
14:49	Limbic_Region	autrijus - did the commentary I just added make sense?
14:49	autrijus	but that's why we have them at t/unspecced/
14:49	autrijus	Limbic_Region: sure, it will amount to rebinding them
14:49	Limbic_Region	but is that the right thing
14:49	Limbic_Region	that's the point, it can be argued both ways
14:49	Limbic_Region	since we don't really have parallel processes - we are only emulating them
14:50	PerlJam	personally, I think the args should be rebound.
14:51	Limbic_Region	PerlJam - but what if it is invoked the second time with no args
14:51	Limbic_Region	should the previous state stay put - should an exception be thrown
14:51	Limbic_Region	principal of least surprise is going to be hard to avoid here
14:51	Limbic_Region	s/avoid/meet/
14:54	PerlJam	Limbic_Region: the sub takes an arg, so if one isn't given it's an error
14:54	PerlJam	the sub takes a non-optional arg I mean
14:56	Limbic_Region	PerlJam - that's one way to look at it
14:57	Limbic_Region	the other way to look at it is that it was only called once and was paused
14:57	Limbic_Region	when it was resumed it should remember how it was called
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14:57	Limbic_Region	IOW - a coro and a sub are different beasts
14:57	Limbic_Region	hmm
14:58	Limbic_Region	lag
14:59	Khisanth	ah ha!
14:59	Khisanth	gaal: make works, make unoptimized doesn't, in fact just make uses a lot less memory too!
14:59	Limbic_Region	minus the !, nice palindrome ;-)
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15:23	svnbot6	r7792 \| iblech++ \| Per r6376 of S06: Changed ?$var to $var? and +$var to $var!. Also you can write
15:23	svnbot6	r7792 \| iblech++ \| "$var = 42" instead of "?$var = 42"/"$var? = 42" now.
15:23	svnbot6	r7792 \| iblech++ \| * examples, t, ext, docs, perl5, src/perl6:
15:23	svnbot6	r7792 \| iblech++ \| Changed (hopefully) all occurances of ?$var and +$var to conform the new S06.
15:23	svnbot6	r7792 \| iblech++ \| Note that I did not update perl5/Perl6-Value, as Perl6-Value includes an
15:23	svnbot6	r7792 \| iblech++ \| own small parser.
15:23	svnbot6	r7792 \| iblech++ \| * Pugs.AST.Internals: Updated the code to determine whether a param is slurpy,
15:23	svnbot6	r7792 \| iblech++ \| to accommodate to the Pugs.Parser change.
15:23	svnbot6	r7792 \| iblech++ \| * Pugs.Parser: Updated the parsing of the pre- and post-sigils.
15:23	svnbot6	r7792 \| iblech++ \| $var # really: $var! (which is same as $var is required)
15:23	svnbot6	r7792 \| iblech++ \| $var? # really: $var? (which is same as $var is optional)
15:23	svnbot6	r7792 \| iblech++ \| :$var # really: :$var? (which is same as :$var is optional)
15:23	svnbot6	r7792 \| iblech++ \| :$var! # really: :$var! (which is same as :$var is required)
15:23	svnbot6	r7792 \| iblech++ \| You cannot mix slurpy with named any longer, i.e.
15:23	svnbot6	r7792 \| iblech++ \| :*@args # is illegal now
15:23	svnbot6	r7792 \| iblech++ \| (Note that the named-ness of *@slurpy_args was ignored (see
15:23	svnbot6	r7792 \| iblech++ \| http://www.nntp.perl.org/group[…].language/22883); now it's
15:23	svnbot6	r7792 \| iblech++ \| additionally a parse error).
15:23	svnbot6	r7793 \| iblech++ \| util/catalog_tmpl/code.tmpl: Removed the unintended indent of the first line of a test.
15:24	* Khisanth	hopes someone cleans up the sigil mess at some point
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15:32	Khisanth	?eval my @foo=1..4;
15:32	evalbot_7791	*** No compatible subroutine found: "&eval" at -e line 11, column 7-39
15:32	Khisanth	O_O
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17:28	Khisanth	?eval my @foo=1..4; @foo.splice( 1, 1 );
17:28	evalbot_7793	2
17:30	liz6	?eval my @foo=1..4; @foo.splice( 1, -1 );
17:30	evalbot_7793	3
17:31	liz6	?eval my @foo=1..4; @foo.splice( -1, 1 );
17:31	evalbot_7793	4
17:31	liz6	?eval my @foo=1..4; @foo.splice( 1, -2 );
17:31	evalbot_7793	2
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17:31	r0nny	re
17:33	autrijus	yo
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17:53	svnbot6	r7794 \| stevan++ \| Perl6-ObjectSpace -> just following a train of thought with the older code, I need to finish this idea a little more to explore where to go next
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18:04	geoffb	yawn smack smack
18:07	obra	seen leo
18:07	jabbot	obra: leo was seen 3 hours 20 minutes 30 seconds ago
18:19	Limbic_Region	am I the only one noticing the case conflict with perl5\Perl6-ObjectSpace\lib\Perl6\MetaModel\Opaque.pm and perl5\Perl6-ObjectSpace\lib\Perl6\MetaModel\opaque.pm
18:19	* Limbic_Region	can't do a svn up
18:20	autrijus	Limbic_Region: you are on a case-insensitive, case-uncaring, case-cruel filesystem
18:20	geoffb	"case-cruel" :-)
18:20	autrijus	Limbic_Region: so, I'm afraid you have to rm -rf that MetaModel tree and then svn up
18:21	autrijus	(or switch to SVK, which a certain autrijus made sure it won't croak)
18:21	Limbic_Region	autrijus - I deleted the file in question
18:21	Limbic_Region	it restored it and then b1tched
18:23	gaal	i like "incasative"
18:23	geoffb	autrijus, stevan__, re: the Object Space stuff: are these additional bits of PIL, or layered on top of it?
18:23	autrijus	geoffb: they are distinct layers
18:23	autrijus	PIL is the AST; they are the "flow" part in PyPy literature
18:23	autrijus	Limbic_Region: hmmm
18:23	geoffb	OK, so does that mean that implementing the semantics PIL will be enough to have a working backend?
18:24	* Limbic_Region	is wiping out the entire MetaModel directory just in case
18:24	geoffb	s/semantics/semantics of/
18:24	autrijus	geoffb: the ObjSpace is the "semantics" behind method calls in PIL
18:24	autrijus	so unless you want to have different intrinsic objects and different dispatch rules, ObjSpace is probably also part of runtime req
18:24	Limbic_Region	even worse now autrijus
18:25	gaal	_The Art of_ arrived today
18:25	geoffb	Hmmm. So basically Ob Space is a "zoom in" on one part of PIL, the method call
18:25	geoffb	?
18:25	Limbic_Region	svn: Can't open file 'perl5\Perl6-ObjectSpace\lib\Perl6\MetaModel\.svn\tmp\text-base\Opaque.pm.svn-base': The system can not find the specified file
18:25	geoffb	gaal, what is that?
18:25	geoffb	(I'm guessing a book, but what about?)
18:25	gaal	TaPL up next
18:26	gaal	geoffb: ..._The Metaobject Protocol_
18:26	geoffb	gaal, ah
18:26	gaal	if i read it i'll finally have a chance to understand what Stevan's all up about :)
18:26	geoffb	As a title by itself, I was thing "The Art of" was pretty damn wide for a subject
18:26	geoffb	heh
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18:27	geoffb	So autrijus, sorry if I'm being obtuse. I'm thinking about it from the point of view of (maybe, someday) creating an additional backend -- what is the absolute minimum set of things I must supply to have it work completely, even if it's dog slow?
18:28	geoffb	Right now, it sounds like PIL + Ob Space + a certain set of primitive types and containers
18:28	gaal	I want to write a "What the heck is" list of questions for stevan & co about OO in Perl 6 (first from a user perspective) but need tuits
18:28	autrijus	geoffb: ok. to create a backend you need to write a codegen
18:28	autrijus	that takes pil and generates some sort of code in your runtime env
18:28	geoffb	Tuits being sadly in shorter supply than oil . . . .
18:29	Limbic_Region	autrijus - even after doing an svn cleanup - it still won't do a proper svn up
18:29	autrijus	and then that "sort of code" needs to manipulate the p6 objects
18:29	autrijus	so you need to port the metamodel on top of your language's runtime
18:29	autrijus	prior to objspace, porting metamodel is very hard
18:29	autrijus	now you just have to implement the intrinsic types
18:30	* Limbic_Region	suspects anyone on Windows using svn is going to have the same problems
18:30	autrijus	and the 30ish prim ops needed to support metamodel
18:30	autrijus	Limbic_Region: hm. seek help in #svn or so? worst case we move stuff into diff. dirs
18:31	* Limbic_Region	can't join #svn as he only has access to #perl6 through Feather's CGI:IRC
18:31	autrijus	ahh.
18:31	Limbic_Region	no worries
18:31	Limbic_Region	I will work on it tonight if I get a chance
18:31	Limbic_Region	from home
18:31	Limbic_Region	err scratch that
18:32	geoffb	autrijus, OK, so to summarize, I need: PIL->backend codegen, PIL primitives, intrisic type implementations, MM primitives. And then it will Just Work. Yes?
18:32	Limbic_Region	tonight's Halloween
18:32	autrijus	Limbic_Region: fixing it for you
18:32	* Limbic_Region	hugs autrijus
18:32	autrijus	geoffb: yes.
18:32	autrijus	visio would help
18:32	autrijus	<- but in irc.perl.org #parrotsketch meeting
18:33	Limbic_Region	oh, well then /me shuts up
18:33	geoffb	autrijus, good then. And yes, diagram would be good in the future, but I understand what I need to right now. Good luck in mtg.
18:33	svnbot6	r7795 \| autrijus++ \| * Move MetaMode/* to MM/* in P6-OS because Win32 SVN
18:33	svnbot6	r7795 \| autrijus++ \| doesn't like case changes.
18:33	autrijus	Limbic_Region: svn up and try again?
18:33	geoffb	& # brunch
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18:38		stevan__ is now known as stevan
18:38	stevan	gaal: excellent book, I am sure you will enjoy it :)
18:38	Limbic_Region	autrijus - likely will have to delete directory, svn cleanup, svn up - but yeah ok
18:38	autrijus	cool
18:38	stevan	The Art of MOP that is
18:39	stevan	hey autrijus :)
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18:40	Limbic_Region	for those of you keeping track at home - the p6 related questions at the Monastery have waned substantially in the last couple of months
18:41	autrijus	hey stevan :)
18:41	Limbic_Region	autrijus - no luck
18:41	autrijus	Limbic_Region: just wait till 6.28.0 and p5objspace :)
18:41	autrijus	Limbic_Region: mm, what errors you got?
18:41	Limbic_Region	perlbot nopaste
18:41	perlbot	Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
18:42	pasteling	"Limbic_Region" at 129.33.119.12 pasted "svn on Windows b0rk" (31 lines, 1.6K) at http://sial.org/pbot/14032
18:42	autrijus	Limbic_Region: try this
18:42	autrijus	svn up *
18:42	autrijus	svn up
18:43	autrijus	oh hm, I bet I know why
18:43	autrijus	a sec
18:43	Limbic_Region	?eval sleep 1; say 'now'
18:43	evalbot_7795	Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&sleep"
18:43	Limbic_Region	shrug - so much for the joke
18:44	autrijus	Limbic_Region: try again
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18:47	Limbic_Region	autrijus - same error
18:47	Limbic_Region	same place
18:49	autrijus	again?
18:50	Limbic_Region	yep
18:50	svnbot6	r7796 \| autrijus++ \| * add MM back
18:50	svnbot6	r7797 \| autrijus++ \| try again
18:50	* Limbic_Region	tries again just to be sure
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18:52	Limbic_Region	autrijus worked
18:53	* Limbic_Region	hugs autrijus
18:53	autrijus	:)
18:57	geoffb	fg
18:59	autrijus	mm, var regs hits parrot trunk; shift/reduce parser works on PGE itself
18:59	Khisanth	variable registers?
18:59	autrijus	chip has finally got some coherent picture of lex pad design -- once it's coded, parrot could really rock
18:59	autrijus	Khisanth: instead of I0..I31 and use a slow register alligator that eats continuations
19:00	autrijus	parrot register frame size can now vary from call frame to call frame
19:00	geoffb	Is it The Plan that P6 arrays will be efficient about sparseness? In particular, small runs of adjacent filled entries, with large gaps of nothing?
19:00		nothingmuch has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
19:00	Khisanth	register alligator ...
19:00	autrijus	geoffb: yes, I think so, esp. if you take ranges into account
19:00	* Khisanth	makes funny faces at autrijus
19:00	autrijus	er allocator. but since I was in leo's place I've always called it alligator
19:00	autrijus	geoffb: also I wonder if we should look into Judy for Hash
19:01	geoffb	autrijus, nodnod. Prolly a good idea, if it's the same one I recall from a couple years ago (very cache-friendly multi-level keyed trees)
19:02	autrijus	yes yes.
19:02	autrijus	self adapting and all that
19:02	geoffb	autrijus, of course, doesn't that depend on being pretty bare metal with unboxed bytes and ints?
19:02		j0sephi has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
19:03	* PerlJam	etches his ints into silicon
19:03	geoffb	(In other words, losing a lot of efficiency if your unboxed byte operators are not as fast as C's?)
19:03	autrijus	geoffb: er what? this is a hash table
19:03	Limbic_Region	autrijus - the variable size registers still won't help the problem of seeing every { } as a potential closure right?
19:04	autrijus	Limbic_Region: it will actually help, because {} as closure is now dirt cheap in parrot
19:04	geoffb	autrijus, I meant, implementing the Judy trees. Or were you assuming a library that we would just use?
19:04	Limbic_Region	IOW - has there been a decision to force blocks explicitly as closure if desired in the p6 language when it isn't obvious
19:04	autrijus	once lexpad is in, capturing all pads won't be a lot of cost
19:04	Limbic_Region	autrijus - but it still has to do every single one right?
19:04	autrijus	Limbic_Region: it's compile time allocation
19:04	autrijus	if you don't introduce new sym in that block
19:04	autrijus	then there's no pain
19:04	Limbic_Region	shrug - if you say so
19:04	autrijus	geoffb: judy.sf.net
19:05	geoffb	well, all right then. :-)
19:05	autrijus	Limbic_Region: if it proves to be slow we can always optimize
19:05	autrijus	but I'm all for deferring optimization
19:05	autrijus	esp. seeing functional languages all do this block-as-closure
19:06	autrijus	and they seem to run just fine
19:06	Limbic_Region	I wasn't suggest that optimizations on current stuff take precedence over becoming feature complete
19:06	Limbic_Region	Parrot has had enough of that headache
19:06	autrijus	ah. just "think about it"
19:06	autrijus	sure, will do
19:07	Limbic_Region	I was only wondering what was being done to address chip's concerns (or perhaps it was pdcawley) about having to save everything as a potential closure/continuation
19:07		j0sephi has joined #perl6
19:08	autrijus	it was chip's concern; but CPS interp fixed that -- saving cc is now O(1) and involves no memcpy I think.
19:09	Limbic_Region	cool
19:09	Limbic_Region	what is the CPS interp fix? I thought Parrot had always used CPS?
19:09	geoffb	Limbic_Region, not always. But for a long time now, yes
19:10	autrijus	yes but there was problems with the lower "control" registers IIRC
19:10	autrijus	not at all sure now, because I learned them from leo
19:10	autrijus	who then, after three days, took them out
19:10	Limbic_Region	geoffb, right - from my perspective it had been always and certainly before chip raised this specific concern
19:10	autrijus	so I never remember the bad old days.
19:10	autrijus	chip raised the concern before that, I think
19:10	autrijus	but you want leo and chip for this, not me -- it's all hearsay from me
19:11	Limbic_Region	well - I trust that good stuff is happening
19:11	* Limbic_Region	doesn't have the current knowledge to know otherwise
19:11	Limbic_Region	and I certainly don't have the desire to get the knowledge to know for sure
19:11	autrijus	you will, once we are targetting parrot for real
19:11	autrijus	you can then complain certain code of yours runs slower than p5 :)
19:11	Limbic_Region	right - the proof is in the pudding
19:11	autrijus	yes.
19:12	Limbic_Region	It isn't that compiler/VM stuff isn't interesting - it certainly is
19:12	Limbic_Region	but it is something you spend years getting good at
19:12	Limbic_Region	and I just don't want to make that kind of an investment
19:13	autrijus	nodnod.
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19:16	PerlJam	autrijus: so how long do you think before we have a parrot-based perl6 compiler (or whatever "the real" compiler looks like)?
19:16	autrijus	PerlJam: blocking on lexpad
19:17	autrijus	so chip is the better one to answer this
19:17	PerlJam	autrijus: I know, I just want you gut estimation.
19:17	PerlJam	s/you/your/
19:17	Limbic_Region	autrijus - so the missing exceptions and other features aren't an issue?
19:17	autrijus	Limbic_Region: er, exceptions actually work
19:17	autrijus	but no, those aren't crucial
19:18	autrijus	PerlJam: pugs can target parrot once lexpad is there. about ~1wk for passing an agreeable amount of t/
19:18	autrijus	PerlJam: the "real" compiler would require bootstrapping
19:18	autrijus	including porting Pugs.Rules into PGE and S/R parser
19:18	autrijus	and Pugs.Parser
19:18	autrijus	and also the rest of Compiler/CogeGen into P6
19:18	autrijus	I don't know about those. not priority to me.
19:18		mtve has joined #perl6
19:18	Limbic_Region	hmmm - that's a scary thought to me actually
19:18	autrijus	priority to me is get OO, then rules, then types, working.
19:19	Limbic_Region	for 5 years now - Parrot has been able to be developed without a great deal of influence from the language (or rather a specific language wasn't driving the development)
19:19	autrijus	Tcl has been driving :D
19:19	PerlJam	only lately
19:19	Limbic_Region	and BASIC
19:19	autrijus	yeah.
19:19	Limbic_Region	and Python
19:19	autrijus	python for a while
19:19	Limbic_Region	off and on anyway
19:19	autrijus	but negatively, in some areas
19:19	PerlJam	BASIC early, then python for a while and now tcl.
19:20	PerlJam	One day perl6 will be driving ;)
19:20	autrijus	pugs has been driving ever since Vienna :)
19:20	autrijus	I made a list of parrotIsBrokenXXX in Pugs.Compile.Parrot and chip/leo has really placed them as top priority
19:21	PerlJam	cool
19:21	autrijus	which is why as of today it's only lexpad was blocking -- it was six or seven things
19:21	Limbic_Region	that's good
19:21	Limbic_Region	what will also be good is targetted optimizations
19:21	Limbic_Region	no offense to leo or anyone else providing optimizations to Parrot
19:21	PerlJam	I really wish I knew more about parsers/compilers/etc. Right now I'm in the camp of "I know recursivce descent is slow, but I can write one of those" :-)
19:21	Limbic_Region	but there really haven't been any real world applications to base them off
19:22	Limbic_Region	Pugs brings lots and lots of examples and tests to the table
19:23	autrijus	but nothing "production" before we hit 6.28.0 (which is why it's top priority for me)
19:23	Limbic_Region	PerlJam - if it were a noop to suddenly be instilled with lots and lots of parser/compiler/etc knowledge - me too ;-)
19:23	autrijus	I still think p5vm targetting will bring a lot of _more_ code into table
19:23	Limbic_Region	autrijus - matter of perspective
19:23	autrijus	in this case CPAN code
19:23	Limbic_Region	right
19:23	sili	i say we code for maintainability and flexibility and just wait for hardware to catch up. it should do well with the expected release date of p6
19:23	Limbic_Region	heh
19:24	autrijus	sili: except that CPUs are not getting faster.
19:24	autrijus	which is why S17 (concurrency) is also a priority ;)
19:24	sili	they are too getting faster
19:24	geoffb	sadly, autrijus is right. (And a good wording for today's blog, thanks autrijus )
19:24	sili	someone at intel is working on it right... now.
19:24	autrijus	geoffb: :)
19:24	autrijus	sili: er, intel is working on dual/quad/whatever cores instead
19:25	sili	could be amd then.
19:25	geoffb	It's actually last week's, but between $work, @family, and &sickness, it's happening today instead.
19:25	sili	or sun/ibm/etc
19:25	autrijus	actually... amd is doing the same
19:25	Limbic_Region	backplane speed is more of a concern to me then CPU
19:25	autrijus	clocking CPU upwards is probably not going to happen at the same rate as before.
19:25	geoffb	sili, most processor companies right now are focused on making parallelism suck less.
19:26	autrijus	geoffb: woot
19:26	sili	heh.
19:26	Limbic_Region	CPU speed increases have certainly not kept paced with the # of transistors
19:26	Limbic_Region	and backplane speed really hasn't seen any significant improvements in a decade
19:27	Limbic_Region	there are real barriers preventing individual CPU speed from going much further (which could certainly be overcame)
19:27	Limbic_Region	it is just faster/cheaper/better to go multi-processor
19:27	azuroth	morninggg
19:27	Limbic_Region	salutaitons
19:27	Limbic_Region	salutations even
19:28	sili	let the community pay for time on a super computer
19:28	sili	did i mention i'd really like to help p6, but i have no idea about how anything works?
19:28	PerlJam	sili: "on a super computer"? you're clearly insane. How about time on "the network computer"? All of those people with broadband access and mostly-idle PCs could make for one hell of a parallel computer.
19:29	sili	PerlJam: that's fine, too.
19:29	Limbic_Region	sili - you mean Perl6 or Parrot or Pugs or all of them?
19:29	integral	sili: go into .../pugs/examples, find a program that's broken, fix it :-)
19:29	PerlJam	sili: writing tests are always good.
19:29	geoffb	PerlJam, well, for certain tasks, yes.
19:29	sili	Limbic_Region: mostly parrot and p6
19:30		lisppaste3 has quit IRC ("Want lisppaste3 in your channel? Email chandler AT unmutual.info.")
19:30	integral	PerlJam: PVM or MPI, or which has a Haskell lib?
19:30	PerlJam	geoffb: sure. As we reach our limits in one axis, we'll need to be thinking about where and how we can squirrel away computations.
19:30		lisppaste3 has joined #perl6
19:30	sili	integral: write a doc profling p6 from top to bottom
19:30	Limbic_Region	well - there is plenty of p5 stuff that can help Parrot - I wrote benchmark code and there are the benchmark tests and verified builds on Cygwin (which has a very small user base) to report bugs
19:30	sili	profiling.
19:31	Limbic_Region	small, but helpful role
19:31	* integral	rolls his eyes at sili
19:31	PerlJam	integral: you rolled a 3
19:31	Limbic_Region	Perl6 design happens mostly on the list - so jump in after reading the Synopses
19:31	Limbic_Region	Pugs - well, that's where you go for fun
19:31	sili	what about understanding parrot internals?
19:32	Limbic_Region	sili - I hear the docs are getting better
19:32	Limbic_Region	but I never went down that road
19:32	Limbic_Region	my C fu is too weak
19:32	PerlJam	sili: prod chip and leo (and especially encourage them to get those PDDs updated)
19:32	azuroth	someone's even doing a thesis on it, I think
19:32	integral	the variable register frame thing still doesn't seem to be finished :-/
19:32	autrijus	integral: oh? how?
19:32	sili	azuroth: i saw that on the list. could be a while until it's finished
19:33	autrijus	integral: also, prodding allison to commit comptools and tte (tree transform engine)
19:33	autrijus	integral: but! I discovers her s3kr1t stash! http://svn.lohutok.net/nam/trunk/parrot/
19:33	autrijus	comptools.pod, Language::AG, it's all there
19:33	integral	autrijus: that's the impression I got from leo's last email (p6i) on the topic
19:33	integral	oooh!
19:34	integral	"Actually now almost all register frame are variable-sized." - among other things the allocator apparantly still only allocates to 32 registers
19:34	autrijus	leo: should the alligator simply die?
19:34	* sili	looks for the automagic pod->html converter
19:34	autrijus	sili: pod2html, part of perl
19:34	autrijus	(and raise a better alligator in its place)
19:35	integral	podserver might be handy for you, sili
19:35	sili	that requires downloading files though
19:35	integral	a much simpler one that just reuses when lifetime expires, since there's no need for moving things to the stack
19:36	leo	integral: this isn't true anymore: new P60, .Integer #...
19:36	Limbic_Region	autrijus - nicholas doesn't participate in #parrotsketch ? How much, if any, is Ponie influencing Parrot?
19:36	Limbic_Region	oh hey there leo ;-)
19:37	integral	leo: ah, neat. I'm afraid I don't follow the commits list so I seem to miss lots of bits
19:37	autrijus	Limbic_Region: Nicholas does participate. he is apparently having massive hyperdistraction problems.
19:37	autrijus	like me, a few weeks ago
19:37	Limbic_Region	k
19:37	autrijus	at least he did not low level format his HDs.
19:37	sili	leo: it was suggested to encourage you to update those PDDs
19:37	sili	:)
19:37	autrijus	ponie does move parrot -- leo committed a few patches to make things work -- but not as close as (say) Tcl
19:38	leo	integral: 13:59 <+svnbot6> r9677 (today)
19:38	leo	sili: no time yet - but yes
19:38	integral	cool :-)
19:38	autrijus	integral: svnbot6 is da bot :)
19:39	autrijus	leo: we really need to get allison into this karma-collecting game
19:39	leo	yup
19:39	integral	autrijus: allison mentions PIL in her compiler_tools.pod; does pugs have it's PIL2 spec'ed out yet, or enough to feed some of that into the PAST thoughts?
19:40	* Limbic_Region	is reading the #parrotsketch notes and sees Nicholas down at the bottom ;-)
19:40	autrijus	integral: I don't think it's going to be a PAST soonish
19:41	autrijus	the Pirate people did not materialize one
19:41	autrijus	and noone else is doing that
19:41	integral	ok
19:41	autrijus	integral: and PIL2 is basically simplified PIL -- i.e. incremental changes
19:42	autrijus	mostly lexical hoisting and saner closure handling -- also thinking to drop Stmt form
19:42	integral	ah, yeah, the compile time Pad issue
19:42	autrijus	will do it alongside Obj stuff.
19:43	* kolibrie	discovers an Ogg Vorbis capable car CD player!
19:43		comet_ has joined #perl6
19:44	autrijus	kolibrie: ooh. url?
19:44	autrijus	(not that I have a car.)
19:45	kolibrie	http://www.yakumo.com/produkte[…]id=1&ag=Autoradio
19:45	kolibrie	have to look in the user manual
19:48	Limbic_Region	ooh autrijus - Wendy sounds like a wonderful sounding board
19:48	* Limbic_Region	is reading the filled in journal stub
19:49	autrijus	:D
19:49	autrijus	yeah. already made her committer.
19:49	Limbic_Region	fresh perspectives can be invaluable sometimes
19:49	autrijus	"xenolupa" I think
19:49	Limbic_Region	err, untainted fresh perspectives anyway
19:49	autrijus	yeah, esp. she did not have the p5 brainwash nor the java/c# brainwash
19:49	autrijus	so, perfect person to try type system on
19:50	comet_	sometimes cliches are invaluable too
19:50	autrijus	as p6 type system had been really hard to swallow for people who had worked around and/or implemented either the dynamic or static end of strong typing
19:54	Limbic_Region	well - I would still prefer a type system where there could be compile time failures for improper type usage
19:54	Limbic_Region	but one with the flexibility not to impose that when undesired
19:55	Limbic_Region	raw speed, fast but flexible, flexible but not so fast
19:58		rashakil has joined #perl6
20:01	xinming	autrijus: ping
20:02	autrijus	xinming: pong
20:02	comet_	rama lama ding dong
20:02		Amnesiac has joined #perl6
20:02	xinming	?eval class a { has $.a; method update { $.a; } };class b { has $.a; submethod BUILD { a.new( a => $.a ).update; }; }; b.new( a => 20 );
20:02	evalbot_7797	Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&update"
20:03	xinming	autrijus: hmm, Is this bug fixed?
20:06	xinming	autrijus: hmm, If it is fixed, I want to see if the test is working.
20:06		liz6 has joined #perl6
20:07	azuroth	is feather for parrot only, or pugs as well?
20:07	autrijus	azuroth: pugs as well.
20:07	Limbic_Region	actually in that sense, pugs came first
20:08	azuroth	Juerd: any chance I could get access?
20:08	Limbic_Region	well, perl6 came first
20:08	* Limbic_Region	things feather should have had a p name now - Pugs, Ponie, Perl6, Parrot
20:09	geoffb	Primary? (As in primary feather)
20:09	liz6	pheater?
20:10	geoffb	liz6, :-)
20:12	Limbic_Region	well, we have 3 animals and Perl6 is the amalgamation of many animals so....
20:13	Limbic_Region	Pangolin
20:13	Limbic_Region	The pangolin is an insect-eating mammal that has protective scales on its body.
20:15	* geoffb	has several pangolin sculptures
20:15	geoffb	Something about them just appeals to me, I guess
20:17	gaal	Panda? Purry (well)? Pig? Polar bear? Party Animal?
20:17	azuroth	party animal. :D
20:18	Limbic_Region	very unlikely Juerd will want to change the name - but I like alliteration
20:18	Limbic_Region	and palindromes
20:18	Limbic_Region	which also starts with a p
20:18	sili	eh
20:18	gaal	Piranha!
20:18	sili	what is poc?
20:19	gaal	context?
20:19	gaal	proof of concept?
20:19	sili	[POC]
20:19	gaal	that's not enough context for me :)
20:19	sili	maybe that's it.
20:19	sili	on p6i, messages labeled [POC]
20:19	gaal	[POC] in my current context is a list of POCs.
20:20	sili	?
20:20	gaal	In haskell, [a] means list of a :)
20:21	sili	trickster.
20:21	sili	so is it proof of concept?
20:21	gaal	dunno
20:21	sili	!
20:23	gaal	You mean http://www.nntp.perl.org/group[…]6.internals/31494 ? Looks like proof of concept to me.
20:25	Limbic_Region	the 2 acronyms I know for POC that are common - proof of concept and point of contact
20:25	Limbic_Region	point of contact doesn't fit in that link though
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20:28	liz6	Perl Or Cobol?
20:28	* Limbic_Region	kicks liz6
20:29		eric256 has joined #perl6
20:29	Limbic_Region	learning Cobol for a CS degree was mandatory at the University of Maine 10 years ago (maybe even more recent)
20:30	* liz6	hurts ;-)
20:31	chip	hell, I learned Cobol in high school in the early 80s
20:31	chip	I thought it was dying then
20:32	* Limbic_Region	wonders where chip went to school
20:33	Limbic_Region	for the record, I neither have a CS degree nor attended the University of Maine
20:33	Limbic_Region	I was helping my Dad
20:36	chip	Limbic_Region: vocational-technical high school. Half of each day senior year was in CS class
20:37	* chip	had fun hacking (ahem) an HP-3000. Junior year it still had honest-to-Eris core memory. Little teeny tiny metal donuts.
20:42		justatheory has joined #perl6
20:43	geoffb	Yipes. I've only seen real core in Boston's CS museum.
20:44	* stevan	drops his punch cards, and curses loudly
20:44	* stevan	hands chip his white lab coat
20:45		Ovid has joined #perl6
20:46	* liz6	wonders whether stevan had sequence numbers on his cards
20:46	* chip	checks ping times to aarp.com
20:47	azuroth	I'd better head to TAFE soon
20:48	Limbic_Region	chip - cool stuff
20:48		Eimi has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
20:48	* Limbic_Region	heads for home and trick-or-treaters
20:48	Limbic_Region	TTFN
20:48		Limbic_Region has quit IRC ("tiuq\")
20:48	chip	cya
20:59		Ovid has quit IRC ()
21:21		Amnesiac has quit IRC ("Leaving")
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21:44	autrijus	liz6: btw, http://rt.openfoundry.org/Foun[…]ownload/?Queue=82 for svk download; after install, "svk co http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs" and press enter all the way.
21:46		Qiang has quit IRC (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable))
21:46	liz6	autrijus: tx
21:46		Qiang has joined #perl6
21:46	autrijus	liz6: for wendy too (there's win32 binary there)
21:47	geoffb	autrijus, you've mentioned the mindset that Wendy doesn't have. What is her actual specialty?
21:48	autrijus	geoffb: extremely high intelligence :)
21:48	geoffb	LOL
21:48	autrijus	and high clock speed.
21:48	autrijus	like, at times faster than me :)
21:48	geoffb	Well, sure, but is she a programmer, a mathematician, a physicist . . . ?
21:48	geoffb	hoo-ah
21:48		dada has quit IRC ("several species of small furry animals gathered together in a cave and grooving with a pict")
21:48	Juerd	azuroth: Email me your real name and preferred username
21:49	Juerd	azuroth: And the request itself, of course
21:49	autrijus	a programmer... with training in C, p5, and another language I don't know how to spell.
21:49	geoffb	ah
21:49	autrijus	oh, http://www.tencore.com/ "tencore".
21:54		evalbot_7797 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
21:54	svnbot6	r7798 \| rafl++ \| r18858@ata: rafl \| 2005-10-30 02:36:30 +0200
21:54	svnbot6	r7798 \| rafl++ \| Debian:
21:54	svnbot6	r7798 \| rafl++ \| * Updated changelog up to 6.2.10-4.
21:54	svnbot6	r7798 \| rafl++ \| * Use Pugs instead of pugs in package descriptions everywhere.
21:54	svnbot6	r7798 \| rafl++ \| * Fixed a format error in copyright.
21:54	svnbot6	r7798 \| rafl++ \| * Adjusted prerm and postinst scripts fir libghc6-pugs-dev to use ghc 6.4.1.
21:54	svnbot6	r7798 \| rafl++ \| * Added some smoke uploading code again.
21:54	svnbot6	r7799 \| rafl++ \| r18859@ata: rafl \| 2005-10-30 02:37:59 +0200
21:54	svnbot6	r7799 \| rafl++ \| Debian:
21:54	svnbot6	r7799 \| rafl++ \| * Build-Depend on ghc6 (>= 6.4.1) instead of
21:54	svnbot6	r7799 \| rafl++ \| ghc6 (>= 6.4) \| ghc-cvs (>= 20050331-1).
21:54	svnbot6	r7800 \| rafl++ \| r18958@ata: rafl \| 2005-10-31 22:44:42 +0100
21:54	svnbot6	r7800 \| rafl++ \| * Debian: build-depend on libparrot0.3.0-dev instead of parrot-dev.
21:54	svnbot6	r7801 \| rafl++ \| r18959@ata: rafl \| 2005-10-31 22:45:01 +0100
21:54	svnbot6	r7801 \| rafl++ \| * Remove useless library-dirs.
21:54		evalbot_7800 has joined #perl6
21:54	eric256	wow. lol
21:55	autrijus	svk push -l ;)
21:55	eric256	how do you commit to just local?
21:55	rafl	A new option learned. :-)
21:56	rafl	eric256: copy a mirrored path to a local one and simply commit to it. Then you can push back into the mirrored path with svk push
21:57	rafl	How to check if parrot embedding worked?
21:57	eric256	...../me stares dazed at rafl
21:57	rafl	eric256: Err?
21:57	eric256	so if i was working on tests.... cp t t_local; work in T, svk ci -M as needed....then when i'm done svk push -I ?
21:58	geoffb	According to clkao's latest slides, you can just change your original 'svk co ...' to 'svk cp ...', and it will just do the magic for you.
21:58	geoffb	Though I haven't tried that yet to see.
21:58	eric256	i could realy use an svk website with examples. is that back yet?
21:58	autrijus	eric256: yes, exactly, though don't need -I
21:59	rafl	eric256: svk mirror PUGS_SVK_URL //mirror/pugs; svk cp //mirror/pugs //local/pugs; svk co //local/pugs
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21:59	autrijus	geoffb: that's correct. at least, that's how I coded it
21:59	autrijus	eric256: svk.elixus.org is back
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21:59	rafl	eric256: It's nicer to copy the whole path to a local path, imho.
21:59	geoffb	autrijus++ # constantly working to DWIM
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22:00	eric256	why is that better than svk co PUGS_SVK_URL; svk ci? seems like lots of work and svk already confuses me enough. ;)
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22:00	autrijus	rafl: to test parrotembed, compile with embed and then ./pugs -e 'eval("print 123", :lang<pir>)'
22:00	geoffb	eric256, local branches and local commit
22:00	* eric256	finished a phone system install this weekend and now waits to get voicemail anxiously. lol
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22:01	amos	morning all
22:02	autrijus	greetings amos
22:02	rafl	autrijus: Thanks.
22:02	autrijus	np :)
22:04		amos is now known as azuroth_tafe
22:04	rafl	autrijus: You don't plan to do releases shortly after the monthly parrot release anymore, do you? :-)
22:05	azuroth_tafe	eric256: so could you explain more about tests relating to documentation?
22:05	eric256	sure. any specifics you are interested in?
22:06	azuroth_tafe	you said to read S12?
22:07	eric256	?? no.
22:07	eric256	http://feather.perl6.nl/~eric2[…]iltins/arity.html
22:07	eric256	there is a test file, see how the links let you jump right to documentation relavent to that test? thats what we want to do with as many tests as possible.
22:08	eric256	so if you browse http://tests.pugscode.org you can find tests with no links to documentation. I've been then looking for documentation that relates to the tests and inserting the needed L<> link into the .t file
22:09	integral	eric256++ # neat
22:09	autrijus	rafl: actually, we can still do that :)
22:09	Juerd	azuroth_tafe: Your password is amoro. Change it right away.
22:09	azuroth_tafe	thanks!
22:09	azuroth_tafe	er... what's feather's URL?
22:10	eric256	can i ask....why are so many failing tests outside of pugsbugs? i'm always confused as to when tests should be in pugsbugs, and when not.
22:10	Juerd	azuroth_tafe: You can't change the password using a url.
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22:10	Juerd	azuroth_tafe: use ssh.
22:11	azuroth_tafe	I mean... the domain name, rather
22:11	Juerd	hostname?
22:11	Juerd	feather.perl6.nl
22:11	integral	w
22:11	integral	oops. impressive number of users on feather :)
22:12	Juerd	You think?
22:12	azuroth_tafe	hooray
22:12	Juerd	I love seeing my donation work so well.
22:12	liz6	;)
22:13	autrijus	eric256: pugsbugs is actually "not sure how to categorize, someone please take a look".
22:13	azuroth_tafe	should I use this svk thing? or just normal svn?
22:13	integral	Juerd: compared to the size of the userbase here, definately. juerd++ :-)
22:13	Juerd	azuroth_tafe: svk, see feather.perl6.nl/~autrijus/
22:13	azuroth_tafe	excellent, thanks
22:14	* eric256	looks more at local mirroring....
22:15	eric256	so that would allow me to commit more often, which my instincts tell me to, but only push when i am at the end, so i can break stuff but still commit without worrying about breaking anyone else. and only push when everything is working agian. ...i think i like that. it its not too complicated in the end. ;)
22:16	eric256	does it only work with mirror and not co?
22:17	azuroth_tafe	so `svk pull` is like up? and I just ci as norm?
22:17	Juerd	azuroth_tafe: You can use up too.
22:17	autrijus	eric256: if you already have a co of //mirror/pugs, do this
22:17	autrijus	svk cp -m "local branch" //mirror/pugs //pugs
22:17	azuroth_tafe	ahh, okay
22:17	autrijus	svk sw //pugs
22:17	autrijus	then "svk ci" will become locak
22:18	autrijus	and then use push to pushback
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22:20	eric256	so i end up with two local copies of pugs?
22:20	svnbot6	r7802 \| stevan++ \| Perl6::ObjectSpace -
22:20	svnbot6	r7802 \| stevan++ \| * the Perl6::MM::* types are fleshed out
22:20	svnbot6	r7802 \| stevan++ \| - tests added for them too
22:20	svnbot6	r7802 \| stevan++ \| * started a Perl6::MetaModel::Bootstrap module to
22:20	svnbot6	r7802 \| stevan++ \| explore what the metamodel will look like using
22:20	svnbot6	r7802 \| stevan++ \| these types. Currently we just have the contents
22:20	svnbot6	r7802 \| stevan++ \| of Gnosis.pm from MM 2.0, and I tested that
22:20	svnbot6	r7802 \| stevan++ \| $::Class->add_method works properly (although it
22:20	svnbot6	r7802 \| stevan++ \| is spelled much differently, see t/metamodel/01*.t
22:20	svnbot6	r7802 \| stevan++ \| for more details)
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22:21	azuroth_tafe	karma time :D
22:21	jabbot	azuroth_tafe: time :D has neutral karma
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22:22	* stevan	is off to dinner &
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22:33	autrijus	ingy: new bible snap when you got some cycles, thanks
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22:41	* autrijus	waves and sleeps &
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22:41	geoffb	g'night, autrijus
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22:59	Juerd	autrijus about wendy: it is rare that I meet someone with a higher internal clock speed and raw mental capacity compared to mine.
22:59	Juerd	rotflol.
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23:33	eric256	svn check
23:33	svnbot6	r7803 \| eric256++ \| r14391@feather: eric256 \| 2005-10-31 23:40:00 +0100
23:33	svnbot6	r7803 \| eric256++ \| local branck
23:33	svnbot6	r7803 \| eric256++ \| r14401@feather: eric256 \| 2005-11-01 00:16:03 +0100
23:33	svnbot6	r7803 \| eric256++ \| - Add CSS styling to directory.tmpl
23:33	svnbot6	r7803 \| eric256++ \| r14402@feather: eric256 \| 2005-11-01 00:23:58 +0100
23:33	svnbot6	r7803 \| eric256++ \| - t/var/var.t fixed link heading
23:33	svnbot6	r7803 \| eric256++ \| r14403@feather: eric256 \| 2005-11-01 00:27:05 +0100
23:33	svnbot6	r7803 \| eric256++ \| - t/syntax/stmt_or_expr.t Changed to A04
23:33	eric256	mhmm...that didn't quite work as expected.
23:33	eric256	can any svk guru point to my error?
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23:45	geoffb	eric256, as aut* said: svk push -l or svk push --verbatim
23:45	eric256	i did push -l
23:45	eric256	i'll have to try --verbatim next time. ;)
23:57	svnbot6	r7804 \| eric256++ \| t/builtins/perl.t added link to .perl and ref quote
23:57	eric256	--verbatim worked. thanks ;)
23:57	eric256	karma eric256
23:57	jabbot	eric256: eric256 has karma of 27
23:57	eric256	i think that went down. lol
23:58	eric256	later all
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