Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-10-31

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:01 dduncan I for one welcome the new metamodel integration
00:01 Amnesiac has joined #perl6
00:06 autrijus ...and concurrency too
00:06 * autrijus commits s17 early draft
00:06 autrijus sub bomb is atomic { ... }; sub path is critical { ... };
00:07 eric256 lol
00:07 rafl_ :-)
00:07 autrijus the hs runcore will get a head start
00:07 evalbot_7786 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
00:07 azuroth I just changed the pods and kwik... is the one on pugscode.org automatically converted to html or something?
00:08 autrijus as it's all from GHC.Conc ;)
00:08 autrijus but liz also got uncountable numbers of Thread::* modules on CPAN to emulate this
00:08 autrijus so p5 runtime shouldn't be _that_ bad either
00:08 evalbot_7787 has joined #perl6
00:08 autrijus azuroth: which url?
00:09 azuroth hmm. http://search.cpan.org/dist/​Perl6-Pugs/lib/pugs/hack.pod  - it's linked to from pugscode's index
00:09 autrijus ahh.
00:09 autrijus yeah it's pod2html of the latst release
00:09 autrijus so your fix will wait till 6.28.0
00:10 azuroth ahh, okay
00:10 Khisanth hmm how long does it usually take to compile ghc?
00:10 svnbot6 r7787 | autrijus++ | * S17 draft, sketch notes, with Liz
00:10 svnbot6 r7788 | azuroth++ | Fixed some grammaticos and wrongness in documentation
00:11 autrijus Khisanth: if you insist... you can do that. on my laptop is 5hr
00:11 Khisanth !
00:12 eric256 (grammaticos and wrongness)++ lol
00:12 azuroth ;-p
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00:17 azuroth what are some easy TODOs? ^_^
00:18 autrijus in hs space?
00:18 azuroth yeah - or anything, really
00:18 eric256 you can help link tests to documentation ;)
00:19 autrijus I'm actually going to sleep soonish -- ask the channel for ideas :)
00:19 autrijus I can use help implementing both the conc and objsp stuff, but more details tomorrow :)
00:19 azuroth okay, cool
00:19 azuroth link tests to documentation, eh?
00:20 eric256 yea.  L<S12/"Heading" /regex to specific spot in paragraph/>  tests.pugscode.org
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00:21 stevan autrijus: I just finished reading the "Ruby in C" section of the PickAxe book,.. it was actually very helpful,... (and much cleaner than XS)
00:21 autrijus good.
00:21 autrijus and it would make sense to compare to YARV arch
00:21 stevan yes
00:21 stevan very much so
00:21 autrijus which is like, distilled version of the tree reduction semantics
00:21 autrijus (ruby was tree reduct like pugs-vanilla and p5)
00:21 autrijus but they are going bytecode as well
00:22 stevan ah
00:22 stevan bytecode is so old school though ;)
00:22 autrijus ASTs are fine for semantics stuff and static analysis
00:22 azuroth eric256: where can I find S12? ;-p
00:23 autrijus but for minimal runtime vocab, you want something more restrictive, and stack bytecode is one of the many comparably restrictive ways to achieve that
00:23 eric256 either http://feather.perl6.nl/~eric256/t_index/Synopsis/ or http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/synopsis.html
00:23 autrijus not doing that will result in runtime bloat, like our dear p5vm
00:23 autrijus ;)
00:23 autrijus (aka, "too many primitives")
00:24 stevan autrijus: so should I rethink the P6::Objectspace::Core stuff?
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00:24 autrijus stevan: I thought you were going to rethink it anyway :)
00:24 stevan yes, but I guess I am asking how radically I am going to rethink it :)
00:24 azuroth ahh, ok. thanks
00:24 * azuroth away
00:24 stevan should I lean more towards bytecode??
00:25 autrijus stevan: no, I think minimal function call API works better than bytecode
00:25 autrijus since they are isomorphic
00:25 stevan ok
00:25 autrijus but easier to reason with
00:25 autrijus sorta like the ANF<->SSA duality
00:25 autrijus also, because we are not really writing VMs.
00:25 autrijus it would be very much not fun if we have to write either YARV or Parrot.
00:25 autrijus ;)
00:25 stevan yes, at least not yet ;)
00:25 autrijus nah, not going to :)
00:26 f0rth has joined #perl6
00:26 autrijus we enslave^Wdominate^Wtarget VMs instead
00:26 * stevan ponders writing in PIR again,.. then slaps himself
00:26 autrijus maybe you can invent a minimal notation for PIR
00:26 autrijus but then, why not just take the JS, Pike, IO, or whatever notation
00:27 autrijus (that nests functions and handles objs)
00:27 stevan :)
00:27 autrijus but really, the effort would amount to be the same as calling a set of p5 space core funcs
00:27 autrijus so I fail to see the gain :)
00:28 stevan so do you see a usefulness for anything in Core::, or should I svk rm it all ?
00:28 * eric256 failes to see what either of you are even talking about. lol ;)
00:28 stevan eric256: ObjectSpace :)
00:28 autrijus eric256: it's in docs/notes/object_space.txt
00:28 * eric256 ahhh...and rolles his eyes. ;)
00:28 stevan :D
00:29 autrijus stevan: the casting stuff are fine
00:29 autrijus base type enumeration and coercion rules
00:29 autrijus those we can't do without anyway
00:29 autrijus so I don't think they need to go
00:29 autrijus they are the intrinsics
00:29 stevan they need to go? or stay?
00:29 autrijus still makes sense Perl6::Val really
00:29 stevan sorry didnt see "dont"
00:29 autrijus :p
00:29 stevan so maybe I just assume these things are my VM primatives then?
00:30 stevan or at least thin wrappers around them
00:30 autrijus sure, like the ruby "val" and "num" etc
00:30 stevan yeah
00:30 autrijus you don't need to reason about them at instruction/coreprim level
00:30 autrijus they are just there, aye
00:33 autrijus closing thoughts of the day:
00:34 autrijus class Hash { method circumfix:<( )> { say 'Whee!' } }; %ENV(42);
00:34 * autrijus waves goodnight :)
00:34 stevan nite :)
00:34 mugwump shouldn't that be post_circumfix?  ;)
00:34 autrijus riight ;)
00:35 autrijus postcircumfix
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00:39 svnbot6 r7789 | eric256++ | Test-Catalog: Now highlights multi line tests correctly.
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00:50 eric256 hey...i know i can use perl5 modules in perl6....supposidly...anyone know how?
00:50 eric256 nm. lol
00:50 rafl_ use perl5:Foo?
00:51 eric256 yea i kept trying perl5- ...didn't it used to be that?
00:51 rafl_ Not sure. I only know that pugs implements perl5:.
00:54 eric256 do you know the new 'use lib?
00:56 misc eric256: use.perl.org/~clkao/journal/24897 i think ?
00:57 eric256 misc .... rafl had it right.. much have changed since then
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01:03 eric256 Juerd: ping
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01:12 r0nny_ re
01:13 r0nny_ rafl_: ping?
01:13 rafl_ r0nny_: pong
01:13 r0nny_ got svk now
01:14 r0nny_ kinda lost in the manpage - cant see, how to get a p4 repo with this
01:17 rafl_ mirror p4:user@host:1666://path/... DEPOTPATH
01:18 r0nny_ hmm
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01:32 * eric256 has to ask
01:32 eric256 what is p4?
01:33 rafl_ Some non-free RCS.
01:44 tewk p4 is Perforce
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03:19 eric256 hmmm.  zip is documented to use ; instead of , .... anyone know if that has officialy changed.  pugs supports , not ; :)
03:21 luqui no, zip really does use ;
03:21 luqui but pugs doesn't support it
03:21 luqui so pugs uses ,
03:21 eric256 gotcha. ;)  why would zip want ; instead of , now that , doesn't flatten
03:23 luqui probably:  zip(1,2,3;4,5,6)
03:23 luqui and zip(f(); g()), so f and g can be called in list context instead of scalar context
03:24 eric256 ; forces list context?
03:24 luqui not necessarily (actually maybe, I'm not sure)
03:25 eric256 the first one would be zip( (1..3), (4..6) );
03:25 luqui but , definitely doesn't allow list context
03:25 luqui because zip(f(), g()), if f and g were called in list context, they would have to be part of the same list
03:25 eric256 true. hmmm ; for something other than the end of a statment seems...weird. ;) but i guess if thats the way it is, then i'll deal. ;)
03:25 luqui we use it as the "greater comma"
03:25 luqui my $matrix = [1,0;0,1]
03:25 eric256 okay....second question. why doens't pugs support it yet?
03:26 luqui nobody's written it yet?
03:26 luqui and because it's not quite specced
03:26 luqui or it wasn't until a week ago
03:26 eric256 just wondered if there was some current barrier
03:26 eric256 lol. gotcha.
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03:33 stevan_ autrijus: when you backlog,.. this is kind of neat to play with http://www.atdot.net/yc/compile
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04:29 Khisanth heh so perl has three commas now? :)
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04:39 dduncan what are the three commas?
04:39 stevan__ has joined #perl6
04:39 dduncan and don't say '=>' because that isn't a comma
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05:48 pantie1 bouncey bouncey?
05:48 pantie1 http://www.livejournal.com/users/clavice_beato/
05:49 pantie1 clavice and I are space amigos
05:50 pantie1 will you be our space amigos?
05:50 Khisanth ?eval package Foo;
05:50 evalbot_7789 undef
05:51 Khisanth ?eval package Foo; sub foo { say "foo" } package Main; Foo::foo;
05:51 evalbot_7789 foo bool::true
05:52 pantie1 fool, bool true!
05:52 pantie1 mr T says...
05:53 Khisanth ?eval package Foo; sub foo { say caller().package } package Main; Foo::foo;
05:53 evalbot_7789 Main bool::true
05:53 Khisanth ?eval $?PUGS_VERSION
05:53 evalbot_7789 \"Perl6 User\'s Golfing System, version 6.2.10, October 10, 2005 (r7789)"
05:54 pantie1 ?eval $?OS
05:54 evalbot_7789 \"linux"
05:54 pantie1 ?eval $*OS
05:54 evalbot_7789 \undef
06:03 dduncan who is this joker?
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06:19 geoffb good morning, nothingmuch
06:23 geoffb ... and goodnight, all
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06:45 nothingmuch hhi ho geoffb
06:45 nothingmuch sleep tight
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08:22 xinming ?eval exit
08:22 evalbot_7789 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&exit"
08:22 xinming :-P
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08:31 xinming iblechbot: ping
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10:39 wolverian ?eval ("a".."c").end
10:39 evalbot_7789 2
10:40 liz6 ?eval ('a'..'c').end
10:40 evalbot_7789 2
10:41 ods15 ?eval 'a'..'c'
10:41 wolverian (just checking if it really was .end and not .last or something)
10:41 evalbot_7789 ("a", "b", "c")
10:41 ods15 ?eval 'a'..'aa'
10:41 evalbot_7789 ("a",)
10:41 ods15 ?eval 'a'..'aaa'
10:41 evalbot_7789 ("a",)
10:41 ods15 heh
10:41 ods15 ?eval 'aa'..'ba'
10:41 evalbot_7789 ("aa", "ab", "ac", "ad", "ae", "af", "ag", "ah", "ai", "aj", "ak", "al", "am", "an", "ao", "ap", "aq", "ar", "as", "at", "au", "av", "aw", "ax", "ay", "az", "ba")
10:41 ods15 ?eval 'a1'..'b1'
10:41 evalbot_7789 ("a1", "a2", "a3", "a4", "a5", "a6", "a7", "a8", "a9", "b0", "b1")
10:42 ods15 ?eval '01'..'10'
10:42 evalbot_7789 ("01", "02", "03", "04", "05", "06", "07", "08", "09", "10")
10:42 ods15 ?eval '1'..'10'
10:42 evalbot_7789 ("1",)
10:42 ods15 cool...
10:42 ods15 bye
10:42 ods15 has left
10:43 wilx Omg, does Perl6 read minds? :)
10:43 wolverian yes.
10:44 liz6 ?eval 1..10
10:44 evalbot_7789 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)
10:44 liz6 ?eval 1.."10"
10:44 evalbot_7789 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)
10:44 liz6 ?eval "1"..10
10:44 evalbot_7789 ("1",)
10:45 wolverian that's a bug. :)
10:46 wolverian hmm. perhaps $obj.sleep( until => "readable" ); # random thought while reading S17 draft
10:47 xinming has joined #perl6
10:47 liz6 keeping Damians PBP in mind, maybe:
10:48 liz6 $obj.sleep( while => "not_readable" );
10:49 wolverian hmm.
10:49 wolverian $obj.sleep_until: { $obj.readable }; # flexible?
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10:51 wolverian er, although that's just the same as '1 until $obj.readable' which is pretty horrid
10:51 liz6 it's the until
10:51 liz6 that seems to be hard on people's minds
10:51 liz6 and therefor not recommended in Perl Best Practices...
10:52 wolverian right. I haven't read PBP yet, actually :)
10:53 liz6 recommended...
10:53 dduncan I've read it cover to cover ... highly recommended
10:54 wolverian I'll try to get my hands on it.
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10:54 azuroth evening
10:54 dduncan I find it the second most useful perl book of them all, with 'programming perl' being the first
10:55 dduncan at least at my current stage of experience
10:55 azuroth what book is this?
10:55 dduncan perl best practices
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10:56 kgftr|konobi pbp++ # lots of useful stuff in there, such as indirect method calls being very very bad!
10:56 dduncan of course, people in other situations will likely find different books more useful ... such as Peter Scott's on dealing with other people's horrid code
10:57 dduncan or the 'learning' ones
10:57 dduncan or the domain specific ones
10:57 dduncan but the classic camel and pbp are my own personal most useful atm
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10:59 broquaint PBP = Sensibility distilled.
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10:59 dduncan indeed ... quite likely to become a defacto standard methinks
10:59 dduncan at least I'm contributing to that status
11:00 dduncan as all my new cpan work is or will be mostly conformant
11:00 azuroth I'll have to read it ...
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11:01 metaperl has anyone convinced Larry to allow /*   */ as a multi-line comment for p6?
11:01 wolverian I hate ->get/set accessors. (Class::Std.)
11:01 dduncan don't know
11:02 wolverian metaperl, not yet. :)
11:02 dduncan I like get/set accessors
11:02 wolverian I like lvalue accessors/mutators.
11:02 wolverian (albeit they suck in perl5.)
11:02 dduncan I never used them in my life
11:03 wolverian it's the way of the future! :) (C# and Perl6 both use them.)
11:03 liz6 lvalue accessors are not recommended in PBP
11:03 wolverian liz6, I know. I understand it's not because of any inherent fault in them, but in the implementation of them in perl5, though.
11:03 wolverian I might be wrong, since I haven't read PBP.
11:03 dduncan they're fine if the values in question can contain any value at all and no error checking is necessary
11:04 wolverian dduncan, why? you can easily add type checking.
11:04 wolverian dduncan, see, for an example, Attribute::Property on CPAN.
11:04 broquaint I think the idea behind not having multi-line comments, metaperl, is that if your comment is taking up multiple lines then it should be in the documentation, hence =pod/=cutthe best way to facilitate multi-line comments.
11:04 dduncan oh yes, you mean in perl 6
11:04 wolverian dduncan, I mean in both perl5 and perl6.
11:04 metaperl broquaint: i see
11:04 broquaint That's just my theory, mind you.
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11:04 dduncan but in that case, you haven't actually got a bare lvalue accessor, as it is wrapped in an object
11:05 wolverian dduncan, a closure. :)
11:05 dduncan maybe its just the syntax you like?
11:05 wolverian of course it's just the syntax. they are exactly equivalent in other ways to get/set
11:06 liz6 wolverian: you're right
11:06 broquaint Not quite, wolverian, as in lvalue you're just boshing a value into a attribute but in the accessor method style you've got paramters and arguments and binding and so forth.
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11:07 wolverian broquaint, true, but if it's that complex it shouldn't be an accessor/mutator anymore, but a generic method.
11:07 dduncan and there's the error checking thing thats different with vanilla perl 5
11:07 wolverian dduncan, yes.
11:07 dduncan and that's mainly what pbp was against
11:08 broquaint Fair enough, wolverian.
11:08 wolverian dduncan, that's certainly understandable.
11:08 wolverian dduncan, but CPAN is there for us to use. :)
11:08 broquaint But, to be fair, PBP is a sensible approach to programming in perl, and programming in perl isn't always sensible :)
11:09 dduncan of course, pbp's ground rule is to get people to do things by choice, rather than by habit
11:09 wolverian always following the rules is not -Ofun :)
11:09 broquaint Or should I say the programming with perl isn't always sensible.
11:09 dduncan if you have an explicit reason to do something against its recommendations, that's still going with its intent
11:09 dduncan and using a cpan module to add whatever is such a conscious choice
11:10 liz6 indeed
11:13 dduncan good night, past 3am here and all ...
11:13 dduncan has quit IRC ()
11:13 metaperl good night D
11:14 liz6 nightynight... just after noon here...  ;-)
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11:33 xinming 19:33 here.
11:33 liz6 isn't this great: a truly global effort!
11:34 xinming but too few commits. :/
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12:09 Juerd IRC pings are so annoying, and such a waste of time.
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12:10 Juerd Why do people insist on "$nick: ping", waitfor(pong), "$nick: $question" instead of just beginning with "$nick: $question"?
12:10 Juerd 02:08 < eric256> Juerd: ping
12:10 Juerd But he is offline now.
12:11 Juerd If he had asked a question, I'd be able to email him an answer.
12:11 webmind because someone wants a more direct conversation ?
12:11 * Juerd assumes he wanted to ask something, not socialize.
12:11 webmind could be impatience
12:12 Juerd afk
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12:33 integral but then there's the people who ask a question, and then ping all the people who answered them last time ...
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13:06 broquaint ?eval my $_ = "say q/things/;" eval
13:06 evalbot_7789 Error:  unexpected "e" expecting operator, ";" or end of input
13:06 broquaint ?eval my $_ = "say q/things/;"; eval
13:06 evalbot_7789 undef
13:06 broquaint ?eval my $_ = "q/things/;"; eval
13:06 evalbot_7789 undef
13:07 broquaint ?eval $?PUGS_VERSION
13:07 evalbot_7789 \"Perl6 User\'s Golfing System, version 6.2.10, October 10, 2005 (r7789)"
13:07 broquaint Hrm.
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13:41 svnbot6 r7790 | autrijus++ | * S17: Incoporate suggestion from Austin Frank; s/wait/join/; timer; continuation
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14:05 svnbot6 r7791 | autrijus++ | * "is throttled" trait
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14:15 Limbic_Region salutations liz6
14:16 liz6 hi L~R!
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14:18 * Juerd wonders if liz6, like perl6, was designed from scratch
14:18 Juerd And if she's implemented with Haskell :)
14:19 liz6 I'm implemented with Freckles, actually...
14:19 Juerd Is that turing complete? :)
14:20 liz6 Probably not...
14:20 Limbic_Region liz6 how is working with autrijus?
14:20 liz6 I always feel like I'm slowing down Autrijus...
14:20 liz6 but sometimes that's a good thing...
14:20 * Juerd can imagine
14:20 Juerd He's incredibly fast :)
14:21 liz6 even faster than you, Juerd...  ;-)
14:21 Juerd Certainly
14:23 autrijus yo :)
14:24 Juerd Is that like io? :)
14:24 autrijus driving fast doesn't matter much if you don't know where to go
14:24 autrijus and liz6 always know where to go, on S17 :)
14:24 Limbic_Region isn't S17 supposed to cover things like coroutines as well?
14:24 autrijus Limbic_Region: yes.
14:24 autrijus and we'll get there
14:24 Limbic_Region good
14:24 Juerd Nice metaphor
14:25 autrijus which is also why we're using Concurrency instead of Threading
14:25 autrijus as the synopsis name
14:25 autrijus because coros are just not very threaded
14:25 Limbic_Region right - coros are fancy continuations
14:26 autrijus if by "fancy" you mean "supressed and maimed", yes
14:26 liz6 ;-)
14:26 Limbic_Region hmmm - no, that's not what I meant
14:26 Limbic_Region continuations only work from 1 point right?
14:26 Limbic_Region while a coroutine can continue and then stop again
14:26 Limbic_Region ?
14:27 autrijus er no, continuations are the most general of all
14:27 autrijus in coro you can only yield into your caller's continuation
14:27 autrijus while if you have first class continuation, you can invoke from anywhere to anywhere with anything
14:27 Limbic_Region ok, but you can yield mutliple times in multiple places
14:28 autrijus sure, so if you have cont, you can implement coro as simply passing the cont into the coro
14:28 autrijus and yield would be invoking the cont, passing it as argument the cont of the coro
14:28 Limbic_Region well, implementation is above my head
14:28 autrijus but yeah, coro is more accessible.
14:29 autrijus cont is basically goto() that takes a value and preserves call stack.
14:29 autrijus very hard to use sensibly.
14:29 autrijus s/preserve/restore/
14:29 Limbic_Region right
14:29 Limbic_Region which is why I saw coros as being more fancy
14:29 Limbic_Region perhaps wrong word
14:29 autrijus more "dressed up"
14:29 autrijus nod
14:30 liz6 need to prepare for some $work, later!
14:30 liz6 has left
14:30 autrijus no, I guess "fancy" is the correct word. it's just my mind is in the direction of "the more abstract, bare and generic the thing is, the sexier it is"
14:30 obra There is such a thing as too abstract and generic
14:30 * autrijus resists a joke on naked singularities
14:30 autrijus there is.
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14:30 Limbic_Region of course, these aren't true coros in the sense that Knuth postulated about
14:31 autrijus obra: looked at the S17 we committed 5mins ago?
14:31 Limbic_Region we still have a single processor simulating work in tandem
14:31 autrijus it's not at all there. just things that we agree should be there
14:33 Limbic_Region autrijus - out of curiosity, will you be able to use conts and coros in places where goto's aren't allowed in p5 (body of loops that require initialization for instance)?
14:33 obra autrijus: I haven't looked in the last 5 minutes ;)
14:34 autrijus Limbic_Region: yes, of course!
14:34 autrijus that's their entire point.
14:35 autrijus I'm actually thinking about removing the Stmt form in the PIL tree, as everything is really just an expression; you should be able to take continuations in middle of statement
14:35 autrijus and, so to speak, goto() into middle of expression.
14:35 Limbic_Region well sure, but when I first brought up the question on the list it didn't sound like there was much interest in using them to their full potential
14:36 * obra starts to imagine using a VM hook to use continuations to do backups of long-running processes
14:36 obra or to do realtime loadbalancing at the process level.
14:36 autrijus right.
14:37 obra That way you can move one runaway process to each CPU and take down EVERYTHING ;)
14:37 * autrijus praises squeak for demonstrating the viability
14:37 autrijus yeah, mobile code, etc
14:37 obra you beat my fingers by 10 sec
14:37 autrijus Limbic_Region: it takes education :)
14:38 Limbic_Region autrijus - good, I haven't lost faith yet ;-)  The other question I asked in that thread were the same questions Dan highlighted in http://www.sidhe.org/~dan/​blog/archives/000178.html
14:38 Limbic_Region there seemed to be a lot of disagreement amongst @larry at the time
14:39 autrijus yeah, but in 2.5 yrs, things changed
14:39 Limbic_Region IIRC, between Luke and Damian
14:39 Limbic_Region that wasn't 2.5 years ago - it was this past May
14:39 autrijus oh. that was between lazy gather vs explicit coro
14:39 autrijus I think we need both ;)
14:40 Limbic_Region well that too
14:40 Limbic_Region but still not what I was talking about
14:40 autrijus *puzzled*
14:40 Limbic_Region parameters
14:40 * Limbic_Region tried to stuff too much into a single post I think
14:42 Limbic_Region perlbot nopaste
14:42 perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
14:42 pasteling "Limbic_Region" at 129.33.119.12 pasted "Parameters and Coroutines" (10 lines, 165B) at http://sial.org/pbot/14024
14:43 Limbic_Region autrijus - I was talking about the behavior we would choose for that link
14:43 Limbic_Region there is more than 1 way to do it
14:43 autrijus yeah.
14:43 PerlJam Limbic_Region: and how would you do it?
14:44 autrijus coro foo ($a) { yield $a; yield $a+1; yield $a+2 }; (foo(1), foo(2), foo(1), foo(2))
14:44 autrijus ?eval coro foo ($a) { yield $a; yield $a+1; yield $a+2 }; (foo(1), foo(2), foo(1), foo(2))
14:44 evalbot_7791 (1, 2, 3, 1)
14:44 Limbic_Region PerlJam - I indicated we should try to emulate whatever is closest to other languages that natively support coroutines
14:45 PerlJam autrijus: the $a doesn't get rebound?
14:45 autrijus PerlJam: it does only at full reentrance
14:45 Limbic_Region the concept was pretty foreign to me before I started reading about continuations and coroutines - I saw the potential, asked about it as well as semantics for parameters - and saw the thread go blammo
14:46 autrijus I think that's what iblech is having at js too, not very sure
14:46 PerlJam autrijus: then what's the point of passing a parameter the 2nd and 3rd time?
14:47 autrijus PerlJam: there's no point... I guess you can raise a warning?
14:47 leo autrijus: it does only at full reentrance -> (1, 2, 3, 2) ?
14:47 Limbic_Region autrijus - there may be a point
14:47 autrijus leo: first one is +0
14:47 Limbic_Region depends on perspective
14:47 autrijus oh wait
14:47 autrijus should be 2 then.
14:47 * autrijus ponders what's what's going on
14:47 Limbic_Region when Knuth first proposed the concept of coroutines - it was intended to be two processes working in parallel (but in implementation we only emulate them)
14:48 PerlJam autrijus: I bet the first yield is "skipped"
14:48 PerlJam (not on the first invocation obviously)
14:48 autrijus ?eval coro foo ($a) { yield $a; yield $a+1; yield $a+2 }; (foo(1), foo(2), foo(1), foo(2), foo(2), foo(2))
14:48 evalbot_7791 (1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3)
14:48 Limbic_Region adding a second or third parameter each time it is invoked could be thought of as giving new information to the parallel running process
14:48 autrijus ?eval coro foo ($a) { yield $a; yield $a+1; yield $a+2 }; (foo(1), foo(2), foo(1243), foo(9), foo(2), foo(2))
14:48 evalbot_7791 (1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3)
14:48 autrijus PerlJam: it's never rebound.
14:48 PerlJam oh, hmm.
14:48 autrijus very bad implementation, it seems.
14:48 PerlJam indeed :)
14:48 autrijus blame... autrijus I guess. iblech does it differently
14:48 autrijus you'd get 1,2,3,9,10,11 I think
14:49 Limbic_Region autrijus - did the commentary I just added make sense?
14:49 autrijus but that's why we have them at t/unspecced/
14:49 autrijus Limbic_Region: sure, it will amount to rebinding them
14:49 Limbic_Region but is that the right thing
14:49 Limbic_Region that's the point, it can be argued both ways
14:49 Limbic_Region since we don't really have parallel processes - we are only emulating them
14:50 PerlJam personally, I think the args should be rebound.
14:51 Limbic_Region PerlJam - but what if it is invoked the second time with no args
14:51 Limbic_Region should the previous state stay put - should an exception be thrown
14:51 Limbic_Region principal of least surprise is going to be hard to avoid here
14:51 Limbic_Region s/avoid/meet/
14:54 PerlJam Limbic_Region: the sub takes an arg, so if one isn't given it's an error
14:54 PerlJam the sub takes a non-optional arg I mean
14:56 Limbic_Region PerlJam - that's one way to look at it
14:57 Limbic_Region the other way to look at it is that it was only called once and was paused
14:57 Limbic_Region when it was resumed it should remember how it was called
14:57 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
14:57 Limbic_Region IOW - a coro and a sub are different beasts
14:57 Limbic_Region hmm
14:58 Limbic_Region lag
14:59 Khisanth ah ha!
14:59 Khisanth gaal: make works, make unoptimized doesn't, in fact just make uses a lot less memory too!
14:59 Limbic_Region minus the !, nice palindrome ;-)
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15:23 svnbot6 r7792 | iblech++ | Per r6376 of S06: Changed ?$var to $var? and +$var to $var!. Also you can write
15:23 svnbot6 r7792 | iblech++ | "$var = 42" instead of "?$var = 42"/"$var? = 42" now.
15:23 svnbot6 r7792 | iblech++ | * examples, t, ext, docs, perl5, src/perl6:
15:23 svnbot6 r7792 | iblech++ |   Changed (hopefully) all occurances of ?$var and +$var to conform the new S06.
15:23 svnbot6 r7792 | iblech++ |   Note that I did *not* update perl5/Perl6-Value, as Perl6-Value includes an
15:23 svnbot6 r7792 | iblech++ |   own small parser.
15:23 svnbot6 r7792 | iblech++ | * Pugs.AST.Internals: Updated the code to determine whether a param is slurpy,
15:23 svnbot6 r7792 | iblech++ |   to accommodate to the Pugs.Parser change.
15:23 svnbot6 r7792 | iblech++ | * Pugs.Parser: Updated the parsing of the pre- and post-sigils.
15:23 svnbot6 r7792 | iblech++ |      $var    # really:  $var! (which is same as  $var is required)
15:23 svnbot6 r7792 | iblech++ |      $var?   # really:  $var? (which is same as  $var is optional)
15:23 svnbot6 r7792 | iblech++ |     :$var    # really: :$var? (which is same as :$var is optional)
15:23 svnbot6 r7792 | iblech++ |     :$var!   # really: :$var! (which is same as :$var is required)
15:23 svnbot6 r7792 | iblech++ |   You cannot mix slurpy with named any longer, i.e.
15:23 svnbot6 r7792 | iblech++ |     :*@args  # is illegal now
15:23 svnbot6 r7792 | iblech++ |   (Note that the named-ness of *@slurpy_args was ignored (see
15:23 svnbot6 r7792 | iblech++ |   http://www.nntp.perl.org/grou​p/perl.perl6.language/22883); now it's
15:23 svnbot6 r7792 | iblech++ |   additionally a parse error).
15:23 svnbot6 r7793 | iblech++ | util/catalog_tmpl/code.tmpl: Removed the unintended indent of the first line of a test.
15:24 * Khisanth hopes someone cleans up the sigil mess at some point
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15:32 Khisanth ?eval my @foo=1..4;
15:32 evalbot_7791 *** No compatible subroutine found: "&eval"     at -e line 11, column 7-39
15:32 Khisanth O_O
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17:28 Khisanth ?eval my @foo=1..4; @foo.splice( 1, 1 );
17:28 evalbot_7793 2
17:30 liz6 ?eval my @foo=1..4; @foo.splice( 1, -1 );
17:30 evalbot_7793 3
17:31 liz6 ?eval my @foo=1..4; @foo.splice( -1, 1 );
17:31 evalbot_7793 4
17:31 liz6 ?eval my @foo=1..4; @foo.splice( 1, -2 );
17:31 evalbot_7793 2
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17:31 r0nny re
17:33 autrijus yo
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17:53 svnbot6 r7794 | stevan++ | Perl6-ObjectSpace -> just following a train of thought with the older code, I need to finish this idea a little more to explore where to go next
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18:04 geoffb *yawn* *smack smack*
18:07 obra seen leo
18:07 jabbot obra: leo was seen 3 hours 20 minutes 30 seconds ago
18:19 Limbic_Region am I the only one noticing the case conflict with perl5\Perl6-ObjectSpace\lib​\Perl6\MetaModel\Opaque.pm and perl5\Perl6-ObjectSpace\lib​\Perl6\MetaModel\opaque.pm
18:19 * Limbic_Region can't do a svn up
18:20 autrijus Limbic_Region: you are on a case-insensitive, case-uncaring, case-cruel filesystem
18:20 geoffb "case-cruel"  :-)
18:20 autrijus Limbic_Region: so, I'm afraid you have to rm -rf that MetaModel tree and then svn up
18:21 autrijus (or switch to SVK, which a certain autrijus made sure it won't croak)
18:21 Limbic_Region autrijus - I deleted the file in question
18:21 Limbic_Region it restored it and then b1tched
18:23 gaal i like "incasative"
18:23 geoffb autrijus, stevan__, re: the Object Space stuff: are these additional bits of PIL, or layered on top of it?
18:23 autrijus geoffb: they are distinct layers
18:23 autrijus PIL is the AST; they are the "flow" part in PyPy literature
18:23 autrijus Limbic_Region: hmmm
18:23 geoffb OK, so does that mean that implementing the semantics PIL will be enough to have a working backend?
18:24 * Limbic_Region is wiping out the entire MetaModel directory just in case
18:24 geoffb s/semantics/semantics of/
18:24 autrijus geoffb: the ObjSpace is the "semantics" behind method calls in PIL
18:24 autrijus so unless you want to have different intrinsic objects and different dispatch rules, ObjSpace is probably also part of runtime req
18:24 Limbic_Region even worse now autrijus
18:25 gaal _The Art of_ arrived today
18:25 geoffb Hmmm.  So basically Ob Space is a "zoom in" on one part of PIL, the method call
18:25 geoffb ?
18:25 Limbic_Region svn: Can't open file 'perl5\Perl6-ObjectSpace\lib\Perl6\MetaMod​el\.svn\tmp\text-base\Opaque.pm.svn-base': The system can not find the specified file
18:25 geoffb gaal, what is that?
18:25 geoffb (I'm guessing a book, but what about?)
18:25 gaal TaPL up next
18:26 gaal geoffb: ..._The Metaobject Protocol_
18:26 geoffb gaal, ah
18:26 gaal if i read it i'll finally have a chance to understand what Stevan's all up about :)
18:26 geoffb As a title by itself, I was thing "The Art of" was pretty damn wide for a subject
18:26 geoffb heh
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18:27 geoffb So autrijus, sorry if I'm being obtuse.  I'm thinking about it from the point of view of (maybe, someday) creating an additional backend -- what is the absolute minimum set of things I must supply to have it work completely, even if it's dog slow?
18:28 geoffb Right now, it sounds like PIL + Ob Space + a certain set of primitive types and containers
18:28 gaal I want to write a "What the heck is" list of *questions* for stevan & co about OO in Perl 6 (first from a user perspective) but need tuits
18:28 autrijus geoffb: ok. to create a backend you need to write a codegen
18:28 autrijus that takes pil and generates some sort of code in your runtime env
18:28 geoffb Tuits being sadly in shorter supply than oil . . . .
18:29 Limbic_Region autrijus - even after doing an svn cleanup - it still won't do a proper svn up
18:29 autrijus and then that "sort of code" needs to manipulate the p6 objects
18:29 autrijus so you need to port the metamodel on top of your language's runtime
18:29 autrijus prior to objspace, porting metamodel is very hard
18:29 autrijus now you just have to implement the intrinsic types
18:30 * Limbic_Region suspects anyone on Windows using svn is going to have the same problems
18:30 autrijus and the 30ish prim ops needed to support metamodel
18:30 autrijus Limbic_Region: hm. seek help in #svn or so? worst case we move stuff into diff. dirs
18:31 * Limbic_Region can't join #svn as he only has access to #perl6 through Feather's CGI:IRC
18:31 autrijus ahh.
18:31 Limbic_Region no worries
18:31 Limbic_Region I will work on it tonight if I get a chance
18:31 Limbic_Region from home
18:31 Limbic_Region err scratch that
18:32 geoffb autrijus, OK, so to summarize, I need: PIL->backend codegen, PIL primitives, intrisic type implementations, MM primitives.  And then it will Just Work.  Yes?
18:32 Limbic_Region tonight's Halloween
18:32 autrijus Limbic_Region: fixing it for you
18:32 * Limbic_Region hugs autrijus
18:32 autrijus geoffb: yes.
18:32 autrijus visio would help
18:32 autrijus <- but in irc.perl.org #parrotsketch meeting
18:33 Limbic_Region oh, well then /me shuts up
18:33 geoffb autrijus, good then.  And yes, diagram would be good in the future, but I understand what I need to right now.  Good luck in mtg.
18:33 svnbot6 r7795 | autrijus++ | * Move MetaMode/* to MM/* in P6-OS because Win32 SVN
18:33 svnbot6 r7795 | autrijus++ |   doesn't like case changes.
18:33 autrijus Limbic_Region: svn up and try again?
18:33 geoffb & # brunch
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18:38 stevan__ is now known as stevan
18:38 stevan gaal: excellent book, I am sure you will enjoy it :)
18:38 Limbic_Region autrijus - likely will have to delete directory, svn cleanup, svn up - but yeah ok
18:38 autrijus cool
18:38 stevan The Art of MOP that is
18:39 stevan hey autrijus :)
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18:40 Limbic_Region for those of you keeping track at home - the p6 related questions at the Monastery have waned substantially in the last couple of months
18:41 autrijus hey stevan :)
18:41 Limbic_Region autrijus - no luck
18:41 autrijus Limbic_Region: just wait till 6.28.0 and p5objspace :)
18:41 autrijus Limbic_Region: mm, what errors you got?
18:41 Limbic_Region perlbot nopaste
18:41 perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
18:42 pasteling "Limbic_Region" at 129.33.119.12 pasted "svn on Windows b0rk" (31 lines, 1.6K) at http://sial.org/pbot/14032
18:42 autrijus Limbic_Region: try this
18:42 autrijus svn up *
18:42 autrijus svn up
18:43 autrijus oh hm, I bet I know why
18:43 autrijus a sec
18:43 Limbic_Region ?eval sleep 1; say 'now'
18:43 evalbot_7795 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&sleep"
18:43 Limbic_Region *shrug* - so much for the joke
18:44 autrijus Limbic_Region: try again
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18:47 Limbic_Region autrijus - same error
18:47 Limbic_Region same place
18:49 autrijus again?
18:50 Limbic_Region yep
18:50 svnbot6 r7796 | autrijus++ | * add MM back
18:50 svnbot6 r7797 | autrijus++ | try again
18:50 * Limbic_Region tries again just to be sure
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18:52 Limbic_Region autrijus worked
18:53 * Limbic_Region hugs autrijus
18:53 autrijus :)
18:57 geoffb fg
18:59 autrijus mm, var regs hits parrot trunk; shift/reduce parser works on PGE itself
18:59 Khisanth variable registers?
18:59 autrijus chip has finally got some coherent picture of lex pad design -- once it's coded, parrot could really rock
18:59 autrijus Khisanth: instead of I0..I31 and use a slow register alligator that eats continuations
19:00 autrijus parrot register frame size can now vary from call frame to call frame
19:00 geoffb Is it The Plan that P6 arrays will be efficient about sparseness?  In particular, small runs of adjacent filled entries, with large gaps of nothing?
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19:00 Khisanth register alligator ...
19:00 autrijus geoffb: yes, I think so, esp. if you take ranges into account
19:00 * Khisanth makes funny faces at autrijus
19:00 autrijus er allocator. but since I was in leo's place I've always called it alligator
19:00 autrijus geoffb: also I wonder if we should look into Judy for Hash
19:01 geoffb autrijus, nodnod.  Prolly a good idea, if it's the same one I recall from a couple years ago (very cache-friendly multi-level keyed trees)
19:02 autrijus yes yes.
19:02 autrijus self adapting and all that
19:02 geoffb autrijus, of course, doesn't that depend on being pretty bare metal with unboxed bytes and ints?
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19:03 * PerlJam etches his ints into silicon
19:03 geoffb (In other words, losing a lot of efficiency if your unboxed byte operators are not as fast as C's?)
19:03 autrijus geoffb: er what? this is a hash table
19:03 Limbic_Region autrijus - the variable size registers still won't help the problem of seeing every { } as a potential closure right?
19:04 autrijus Limbic_Region: it will actually help, because {} as closure is now dirt cheap in parrot
19:04 geoffb autrijus, I meant, implementing the Judy trees.  Or were you assuming a library that we would just use?
19:04 Limbic_Region IOW - has there been a decision to force blocks explicitly as closure if desired in the p6 language when it isn't obvious
19:04 autrijus once lexpad is in, capturing all pads won't be a lot of cost
19:04 Limbic_Region autrijus - but it still has to do every single one right?
19:04 autrijus Limbic_Region: it's compile time allocation
19:04 autrijus if you don't introduce new sym in that block
19:04 autrijus then there's no pain
19:04 Limbic_Region *shrug* - if you say so
19:04 autrijus geoffb: judy.sf.net
19:05 geoffb well, all right then.  :-)
19:05 autrijus Limbic_Region: if it proves to be slow we can always optimize
19:05 autrijus but I'm all for deferring optimization
19:05 autrijus esp. seeing functional languages all do this block-as-closure
19:06 autrijus and they seem to run just fine
19:06 Limbic_Region I wasn't suggest that optimizations on current stuff take precedence over becoming feature complete
19:06 Limbic_Region Parrot has had enough of that headache
19:06 autrijus ah. just "think about it"
19:06 autrijus sure, will do
19:07 Limbic_Region I was only wondering what was being done to address chip's concerns (or perhaps it was pdcawley) about having to save everything as a potential closure/continuation
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19:08 autrijus it was chip's concern; but CPS interp fixed that -- saving cc is now O(1) and involves no memcpy I think.
19:09 Limbic_Region cool
19:09 Limbic_Region what is the CPS interp fix?  I thought Parrot had always used CPS?
19:09 geoffb Limbic_Region, not always.  But for a long time now, yes
19:10 autrijus yes but there was problems with the lower "control" registers IIRC
19:10 autrijus not at all sure now, because I learned them from leo
19:10 autrijus who then, after three days, took them out
19:10 Limbic_Region geoffb, right - from my perspective it had been always and certainly before chip raised this specific concern
19:10 autrijus so I never remember the bad old days.
19:10 autrijus chip raised the concern before that, I think
19:10 autrijus but you want leo and chip for this, not me -- it's all hearsay from me
19:11 Limbic_Region well - I trust that good stuff is happening
19:11 * Limbic_Region doesn't have the current knowledge to know otherwise
19:11 Limbic_Region and I certainly don't have the desire to get the knowledge to know for sure
19:11 autrijus you will, once we are targetting parrot for real
19:11 autrijus you can then complain certain code of yours runs slower than p5 :)
19:11 Limbic_Region right - the proof is in the pudding
19:11 autrijus yes.
19:12 Limbic_Region It isn't that compiler/VM stuff isn't interesting - it certainly is
19:12 Limbic_Region but it is something you spend years getting good at
19:12 Limbic_Region and I just don't want to make that kind of an investment
19:13 autrijus nodnod.
19:14 Maddingue has quit IRC ("Leaving")
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19:16 PerlJam autrijus: so how long do you think before we have a parrot-based perl6 compiler (or whatever "the real" compiler looks like)?
19:16 autrijus PerlJam: blocking on lexpad
19:17 autrijus so chip is the better one to answer this
19:17 PerlJam autrijus: I know, I just want you gut estimation.
19:17 PerlJam s/you/your/
19:17 Limbic_Region autrijus - so the missing exceptions and other features aren't an issue?
19:17 autrijus Limbic_Region: er, exceptions actually work
19:17 autrijus but no, those aren't crucial
19:18 autrijus PerlJam: pugs can target parrot once lexpad is there. about ~1wk for passing an agreeable amount of t/
19:18 autrijus PerlJam: the "real" compiler would require bootstrapping
19:18 autrijus including porting Pugs.Rules into PGE and S/R parser
19:18 autrijus and Pugs.Parser
19:18 autrijus and also the rest of Compiler/CogeGen into P6
19:18 autrijus I don't know about those. not priority to me.
19:18 mtve has joined #perl6
19:18 Limbic_Region hmmm - that's a scary thought to me actually
19:18 autrijus priority to me is get OO, then rules, then types, working.
19:19 Limbic_Region for 5 years now - Parrot has been able to be developed without a great deal of influence from the language (or rather a specific language wasn't driving the development)
19:19 autrijus Tcl has been driving :D
19:19 PerlJam only lately
19:19 Limbic_Region and BASIC
19:19 autrijus yeah.
19:19 Limbic_Region and Python
19:19 autrijus python for a while
19:19 Limbic_Region off and on anyway
19:19 autrijus but negatively, in some areas
19:19 PerlJam BASIC early, then python for a while and now tcl.
19:20 PerlJam One day perl6 will be driving  ;)
19:20 autrijus pugs has been driving ever since Vienna :)
19:20 autrijus I made a list of parrotIsBrokenXXX in Pugs.Compile.Parrot and chip/leo has really placed them as top priority
19:21 PerlJam cool
19:21 autrijus which is why as of today it's only lexpad was blocking -- it was six or seven things
19:21 Limbic_Region that's good
19:21 Limbic_Region what will also be good is targetted optimizations
19:21 Limbic_Region no offense to leo or anyone else providing optimizations to Parrot
19:21 PerlJam I really wish I knew more about parsers/compilers/etc.  Right now I'm in the camp of "I know recursivce descent is slow, but I can write one of those"  :-)
19:21 Limbic_Region but there really haven't been any real world applications to base them off
19:22 Limbic_Region Pugs brings lots and lots of examples and tests to the table
19:23 autrijus but nothing "production" before we hit 6.28.0 (which is why it's top priority for me)
19:23 Limbic_Region PerlJam - if it were a noop to suddenly be instilled with lots and lots of parser/compiler/etc knowledge - me too ;-)
19:23 autrijus I still think p5vm targetting will bring a lot of _more_ code into table
19:23 Limbic_Region autrijus - matter of perspective
19:23 autrijus in this case CPAN code
19:23 Limbic_Region right
19:23 sili i say we code for maintainability and flexibility and just wait for hardware to catch up. it should do well with the expected release date of p6
19:23 Limbic_Region heh
19:24 autrijus sili: except that CPUs are not getting faster.
19:24 autrijus which is why S17 (concurrency) is also a priority ;)
19:24 sili they are too getting faster
19:24 geoffb sadly, autrijus is right.  (And a good wording for today's blog, thanks autrijus )
19:24 sili someone at intel is working on it right... now.
19:24 autrijus geoffb: :)
19:24 autrijus sili: er, intel is working on dual/quad/whatever cores instead
19:25 sili could be amd then.
19:25 geoffb It's actually last week's, but between $work, @family, and &sickness, it's happening today instead.
19:25 sili or sun/ibm/etc
19:25 autrijus actually... amd is doing the same
19:25 Limbic_Region backplane speed is more of a concern to me then CPU
19:25 autrijus clocking CPU upwards is probably not going to happen at the same rate as before.
19:25 geoffb sili, most processor companies right now are focused on making parallelism suck less.
19:26 autrijus geoffb: woot
19:26 sili heh.
19:26 Limbic_Region CPU speed increases have certainly not kept paced with the # of transistors
19:26 Limbic_Region and backplane speed really hasn't seen any significant improvements in a decade
19:27 Limbic_Region there are real barriers preventing individual CPU speed from going much further (which could certainly be overcame)
19:27 Limbic_Region it is just faster/cheaper/better to go multi-processor
19:27 azuroth morninggg
19:27 Limbic_Region salutaitons
19:27 Limbic_Region salutations even
19:28 sili let the community pay for time on a super computer
19:28 sili did i mention i'd really like to help p6, but i have no idea about how anything works?
19:28 PerlJam sili: "on a super computer"?  you're clearly insane.  How about time on "the network computer"?  All of those people with broadband access and mostly-idle PCs could make for one hell of a parallel computer.
19:29 sili PerlJam: that's fine, too.
19:29 Limbic_Region sili - you mean Perl6 or Parrot or Pugs or all of them?
19:29 integral sili: go into .../pugs/examples, find a program that's broken, fix it :-)
19:29 PerlJam sili: writing tests are always good.
19:29 geoffb PerlJam, well, for certain tasks, yes.
19:29 sili Limbic_Region: mostly parrot and p6
19:30 lisppaste3 has quit IRC ("Want lisppaste3 in your channel? Email chandler AT unmutual.info.")
19:30 integral PerlJam: PVM or MPI, or which has a Haskell lib?
19:30 PerlJam geoffb: sure.  As we reach our limits in one axis, we'll need to be thinking about where and how we can squirrel away computations.
19:30 lisppaste3 has joined #perl6
19:30 sili integral: write a doc profling p6 from top to bottom
19:30 Limbic_Region well - there is plenty of p5 stuff that can help Parrot - I wrote benchmark code and there are the benchmark tests and verified builds on Cygwin (which has a very small user base) to report bugs
19:30 sili profiling.
19:31 Limbic_Region small, but helpful role
19:31 * integral rolls his eyes at sili
19:31 PerlJam integral: you rolled a 3
19:31 Limbic_Region Perl6 design happens mostly on the list - so jump in after reading the Synopses
19:31 Limbic_Region Pugs - well, that's where you go for fun
19:31 sili what about understanding parrot internals?
19:32 Limbic_Region sili - I hear the docs are getting better
19:32 Limbic_Region but I never went down that road
19:32 Limbic_Region my C fu is too weak
19:32 PerlJam sili: prod chip and leo (and especially encourage them to get those PDDs updated)
19:32 azuroth someone's even doing a thesis on it, I think
19:32 integral the variable register frame thing still doesn't seem to be finished :-/
19:32 autrijus integral: oh? how?
19:32 sili azuroth: i saw that on the list. could be a while until it's finished
19:33 autrijus integral: also, prodding allison to commit comptools and tte (tree transform engine)
19:33 autrijus integral: but! I discovers her s3kr1t stash! http://svn.lohutok.net/nam/trunk/parrot/
19:33 autrijus comptools.pod, Language::AG, it's all there
19:33 integral autrijus: that's the impression I got from leo's last email (p6i) on the topic
19:33 integral oooh!
19:34 integral "Actually now almost all register frame are variable-sized." - among other things the allocator apparantly still only allocates to 32 registers
19:34 autrijus leo: should the alligator simply die?
19:34 * sili looks for the automagic pod->html converter
19:34 autrijus sili: pod2html, part of perl
19:34 autrijus (and raise a better alligator in its place)
19:35 integral podserver might be handy for you, sili
19:35 sili that requires downloading files though
19:35 integral a much simpler one that just reuses when lifetime expires, since there's no need for moving things to the stack
19:36 leo integral: this isn't true anymore:   new P60, .Integer #...
19:36 Limbic_Region autrijus - nicholas doesn't participate in #parrotsketch ?  How much, if any, is Ponie influencing Parrot?
19:36 Limbic_Region oh hey there leo ;-)
19:37 integral leo: ah, neat.   I'm afraid I don't follow the commits list so I seem to miss lots of bits
19:37 autrijus Limbic_Region: Nicholas does participate. he is apparently having massive hyperdistraction problems.
19:37 autrijus like me, a few weeks ago
19:37 Limbic_Region k
19:37 autrijus at least he did not low level format his HDs.
19:37 sili leo: it was suggested to encourage you to update those PDDs
19:37 sili :)
19:37 autrijus ponie does move parrot -- leo committed a few patches to make things work -- but not as close as (say) Tcl
19:38 leo integral: 13:59 <+svnbot6> r9677 (today)
19:38 leo sili: no time yet - but yes
19:38 integral cool :-)
19:38 autrijus integral: svnbot6 is da bot :)
19:39 autrijus leo: we really need to get allison into this karma-collecting game
19:39 leo yup
19:39 integral autrijus: allison mentions PIL in her compiler_tools.pod;  does pugs have it's PIL2 spec'ed out yet, or enough to feed some of that into the PAST thoughts?
19:40 * Limbic_Region is reading the #parrotsketch notes and sees Nicholas down at the bottom ;-)
19:40 autrijus integral: I don't think it's going to be a PAST soonish
19:41 autrijus the Pirate people did not materialize one
19:41 autrijus and noone else is doing that
19:41 integral ok
19:41 autrijus integral: and PIL2 is basically simplified PIL -- i.e. incremental changes
19:42 autrijus mostly lexical hoisting and saner closure handling -- also thinking to drop Stmt form
19:42 integral ah, yeah, the compile time Pad issue
19:42 autrijus will do it alongside Obj stuff.
19:43 * kolibrie discovers an Ogg Vorbis capable car CD player!
19:43 comet_ has joined #perl6
19:44 autrijus kolibrie: ooh. url?
19:44 autrijus (not that I have a car.)
19:45 kolibrie http://www.yakumo.com/produkte/i​ndex.php?pid=1&amp;ag=Autoradio
19:45 kolibrie have to look in the user manual
19:48 Limbic_Region ooh autrijus - Wendy sounds like a wonderful sounding board
19:48 * Limbic_Region is reading the filled in journal stub
19:49 autrijus :D
19:49 autrijus yeah. already made her committer.
19:49 Limbic_Region fresh perspectives can be invaluable sometimes
19:49 autrijus "xenolupa" I think
19:49 Limbic_Region err, untainted fresh perspectives anyway
19:49 autrijus yeah, esp. she did not have the p5 brainwash nor the java/c# brainwash
19:49 autrijus so, perfect person to try type system on
19:50 comet_ sometimes cliches are invaluable too
19:50 autrijus as p6 type system had been really hard to swallow for people who had worked around and/or implemented either the dynamic or static end of strong typing
19:54 Limbic_Region well - I would still prefer a type system where there could be compile time failures for improper type usage
19:54 Limbic_Region but one with the flexibility not to impose that when undesired
19:55 Limbic_Region raw speed, fast but flexible, flexible but not so fast
19:58 rashakil has joined #perl6
20:01 xinming autrijus: ping
20:02 autrijus xinming: pong
20:02 comet_ rama lama ding dong
20:02 Amnesiac has joined #perl6
20:02 xinming ?eval class a { has $.a; method update { $.a; } };class b { has $.a; submethod BUILD { a.new( a => $.a ).update; }; }; b.new( a => 20 );
20:02 evalbot_7797 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&update"
20:03 xinming autrijus: hmm, Is this bug fixed?
20:06 xinming autrijus: hmm, If it is fixed, I want to see if the test is working.
20:06 liz6 has joined #perl6
20:07 azuroth is feather for parrot only, or pugs as well?
20:07 autrijus azuroth: pugs as well.
20:07 Limbic_Region actually in that sense, pugs came first
20:08 azuroth Juerd: any chance I could get access?
20:08 Limbic_Region well, perl6 came first
20:08 * Limbic_Region things feather should have had a p name now - Pugs, Ponie, Perl6, Parrot
20:09 geoffb Primary?  (As in primary feather)
20:09 liz6 pheater?
20:10 geoffb liz6, :-)
20:12 Limbic_Region well, we have 3 animals and Perl6 is the amalgamation of many animals so....
20:13 Limbic_Region Pangolin
20:13 Limbic_Region The pangolin is an insect-eating mammal that has protective scales on its body.
20:15 * geoffb has several pangolin sculptures
20:15 geoffb Something about them just appeals to me, I guess
20:17 gaal Panda? Purry (well)? Pig? Polar bear? Party Animal?
20:17 azuroth party animal. :D
20:18 Limbic_Region very unlikely Juerd will want to change the name - but I like alliteration
20:18 Limbic_Region and palindromes
20:18 Limbic_Region which also starts with a p
20:18 sili eh
20:18 gaal Piranha!
20:18 sili what is poc?
20:19 gaal context?
20:19 gaal proof of concept?
20:19 sili [POC]
20:19 gaal that's not enough context for me :)
20:19 sili maybe that's it.
20:19 sili on p6i, messages labeled [POC]
20:19 gaal [POC] in my current context is a list of POCs.
20:20 sili ?
20:20 gaal In haskell, [a] means list of a :)
20:21 sili trickster.
20:21 sili so is it proof of concept?
20:21 gaal dunno
20:21 sili !
20:23 gaal You mean http://www.nntp.perl.org/grou​p/perl.perl6.internals/31494 ? Looks like proof of concept to me.
20:25 Limbic_Region the 2 acronyms I know for POC that are common - proof of concept and point of contact
20:25 Limbic_Region point of contact doesn't fit in that link though
20:27 justatheory has quit IRC ()
20:28 liz6 Perl Or Cobol?
20:28 * Limbic_Region kicks liz6
20:29 eric256 has joined #perl6
20:29 Limbic_Region learning Cobol for a CS degree was mandatory at the University of Maine 10 years ago (maybe even more recent)
20:30 * liz6 hurts ;-)
20:31 chip hell, I learned Cobol in high school in the early 80s
20:31 chip I thought it was dying *then*
20:32 * Limbic_Region wonders where chip went to school
20:33 Limbic_Region for the record, I neither have a CS degree nor attended the University of Maine
20:33 Limbic_Region I was helping my Dad
20:36 chip Limbic_Region: vocational-technical high school.  Half of each day senior year was in CS class
20:37 * chip had fun hacking (*ahem*) an HP-3000.  Junior year it still had honest-to-Eris core memory.  Little teeny tiny metal donuts.
20:42 justatheory has joined #perl6
20:43 geoffb Yipes.  I've only seen real core in Boston's CS museum.
20:44 * stevan drops his punch cards, and curses loudly
20:44 * stevan hands chip his white lab coat
20:45 Ovid has joined #perl6
20:46 * liz6 wonders whether stevan had sequence numbers on his cards
20:46 * chip checks ping times to aarp.com
20:47 azuroth I'd better head to TAFE soon
20:48 Limbic_Region chip - cool stuff
20:48 Eimi has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
20:48 * Limbic_Region heads for home and trick-or-treaters
20:48 Limbic_Region TTFN
20:48 Limbic_Region has quit IRC ("tiuq\")
20:48 chip cya
20:59 Ovid has quit IRC ()
21:21 Amnesiac has quit IRC ("Leaving")
21:25 r0nny has quit IRC ("sleep")
21:39 Eimi has joined #perl6
21:44 autrijus liz6: btw, http://rt.openfoundry.org/Foun​dry/Project/Download/?Queue=82 for svk download; after install, "svk co http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs" and press enter all the way.
21:46 Qiang has quit IRC (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable))
21:46 liz6 autrijus: tx
21:46 Qiang has joined #perl6
21:46 autrijus liz6: for wendy too (there's win32 binary there)
21:47 geoffb autrijus, you've mentioned the mindset that Wendy *doesn't* have.  What is her actual specialty?
21:48 autrijus geoffb: extremely high intelligence :)
21:48 geoffb LOL
21:48 autrijus and high clock speed.
21:48 autrijus like, at times faster than me :)
21:48 geoffb Well, sure, but is she a programmer, a mathematician, a physicist . . . ?
21:48 geoffb hoo-ah
21:48 dada has quit IRC ("several species of small furry animals gathered together in a cave and grooving with a pict")
21:48 Juerd azuroth: Email me your real name and preferred username
21:49 Juerd azuroth: And the request itself, of course
21:49 autrijus a programmer... with training in C, p5, and another language I don't know how to spell.
21:49 geoffb ah
21:49 autrijus oh, http://www.tencore.com/ "tencore".
21:54 evalbot_7797 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
21:54 svnbot6 r7798 | rafl++ |  r18858@ata:  rafl | 2005-10-30 02:36:30 +0200
21:54 svnbot6 r7798 | rafl++ |  Debian:
21:54 svnbot6 r7798 | rafl++ |   * Updated changelog up to 6.2.10-4.
21:54 svnbot6 r7798 | rafl++ |   * Use Pugs instead of pugs in package descriptions everywhere.
21:54 svnbot6 r7798 | rafl++ |   * Fixed a format error in copyright.
21:54 svnbot6 r7798 | rafl++ |   * Adjusted prerm and postinst scripts fir libghc6-pugs-dev to use ghc 6.4.1.
21:54 svnbot6 r7798 | rafl++ |   * Added some smoke uploading code again.
21:54 svnbot6 r7799 | rafl++ |  r18859@ata:  rafl | 2005-10-30 02:37:59 +0200
21:54 svnbot6 r7799 | rafl++ |  Debian:
21:54 svnbot6 r7799 | rafl++ |   * Build-Depend on ghc6 (>= 6.4.1) instead of
21:54 svnbot6 r7799 | rafl++ |     ghc6 (>= 6.4) | ghc-cvs (>= 20050331-1).
21:54 svnbot6 r7800 | rafl++ |  r18958@ata:  rafl | 2005-10-31 22:44:42 +0100
21:54 svnbot6 r7800 | rafl++ |  * Debian: build-depend on libparrot0.3.0-dev instead of parrot-dev.
21:54 svnbot6 r7801 | rafl++ |  r18959@ata:  rafl | 2005-10-31 22:45:01 +0100
21:54 svnbot6 r7801 | rafl++ |  * Remove useless library-dirs.
21:54 evalbot_7800 has joined #perl6
21:54 eric256 wow. lol
21:55 autrijus svk push -l ;)
21:55 eric256 how do you commit to just local?  
21:55 rafl A new option learned. :-)
21:56 rafl eric256: copy a mirrored path to a local one and simply commit to it. Then you can push back into the mirrored path with svk push
21:57 rafl How to check if parrot embedding worked?
21:57 eric256 ...../me stares dazed at rafl
21:57 rafl eric256: Err?
21:57 eric256 so if i was working on tests.... cp t t_local;  work in T, svk ci -M as needed....then when i'm done svk push -I ?
21:58 geoffb According to clkao's latest slides, you can just change your original 'svk co ...' to 'svk cp ...', and it will just do the magic for you.
21:58 geoffb Though I haven't tried that yet to see.
21:58 eric256 i could realy use an svk website with examples. is that back yet?
21:58 autrijus eric256: yes, exactly, though don't need -I
21:59 rafl eric256: svk mirror PUGS_SVK_URL //mirror/pugs; svk cp //mirror/pugs //local/pugs; svk co //local/pugs
21:59 liz6 has left
21:59 autrijus geoffb: that's correct. at least, that's how I coded it
21:59 autrijus eric256: svk.elixus.org is back
21:59 amos has joined #perl6
21:59 rafl eric256: It's nicer to copy the whole path to a local path, imho.
21:59 geoffb autrijus++ # constantly working to DWIM
21:59 evalbot_7800 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
22:00 eric256 why is that better than svk co PUGS_SVK_URL; svk ci?  seems like lots of work and svk already confuses me enough. ;)
22:00 evalbot_7801 has joined #perl6
22:00 liz6 has joined #perl6
22:00 autrijus rafl: to test parrotembed, compile with embed and then ./pugs -e 'eval("print 123", :lang<pir>)'
22:00 geoffb eric256, local branches and local commit
22:00 * eric256 finished a phone system install this weekend and now waits to get voicemail anxiously. lol
22:01 dduncan has joined #perl6
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22:01 amos morning all
22:02 autrijus greetings amos
22:02 rafl autrijus: Thanks.
22:02 autrijus np :)
22:04 amos is now known as azuroth_tafe
22:04 rafl autrijus: You don't plan to do releases shortly after the monthly parrot release anymore, do you? :-)
22:05 azuroth_tafe eric256: so could you explain more about tests relating to documentation?
22:05 eric256 sure.  any specifics you are interested in?
22:06 azuroth_tafe you said to read S12?
22:07 eric256 ?? no.
22:07 eric256 http://feather.perl6.nl/~eric25​6/t_index/t/builtins/arity.html  
22:07 eric256 there is a test file,  see how the links let you jump right to documentation relavent to that test?  thats what we want to do with as many tests as possible.
22:08 eric256 so if you browse http://tests.pugscode.org you can find tests with no links to documentation.  I've been then looking for documentation that relates to the tests and inserting the needed L<> link into the .t file
22:09 integral eric256++ # neat
22:09 autrijus rafl: actually, we can still do that :)
22:09 Juerd azuroth_tafe: Your password is amoro. Change it right away.
22:09 azuroth_tafe thanks!
22:09 azuroth_tafe er... what's feather's URL?
22:10 eric256 can i ask....why are so many failing tests outside of pugsbugs? i'm always confused as to when tests should be in pugsbugs, and when not.
22:10 Juerd azuroth_tafe: You can't change the password using a url.
22:10 Qiang has quit IRC ("Leaving")
22:10 Juerd azuroth_tafe: use ssh.
22:11 azuroth_tafe I mean... the domain name, rather
22:11 Juerd hostname?
22:11 Juerd feather.perl6.nl
22:11 integral w
22:11 integral oops.   impressive number of users on feather :)
22:12 Juerd You think?
22:12 azuroth_tafe hooray
22:12 Juerd I love seeing my donation work so well.
22:12 liz6 ;)
22:13 autrijus eric256: pugsbugs is actually "not sure how to categorize, someone please take a look".
22:13 azuroth_tafe should I use this svk thing? or just normal svn?
22:13 integral Juerd: compared to the size of the userbase here, definately.   juerd++ :-)
22:13 Juerd azuroth_tafe: svk, see feather.perl6.nl/~autrijus/
22:13 azuroth_tafe excellent, thanks
22:14 * eric256 looks more at local mirroring....
22:15 eric256 so that would allow me to commit more often, which my instincts tell me to, but only push when i am at the end, so i can break stuff but still commit without worrying about breaking anyone else. and only push when everything is working agian. ...i think i like that.  it its not too complicated in the end. ;)
22:16 eric256 does it only work with mirror and not co?
22:17 azuroth_tafe so `svk pull` is like up? and I just ci as norm?
22:17 Juerd azuroth_tafe: You can use up too.
22:17 autrijus eric256: if you already have a co of //mirror/pugs, do this
22:17 autrijus svk cp -m "local branch" //mirror/pugs //pugs
22:17 azuroth_tafe ahh, okay
22:17 autrijus svk sw //pugs
22:17 autrijus then "svk ci" will become locak
22:18 autrijus and then use push to pushback
22:18 liz6 has quit IRC ("User disconnected")
22:20 eric256 so i end up with two local copies of pugs?
22:20 svnbot6 r7802 | stevan++ | Perl6::ObjectSpace -
22:20 svnbot6 r7802 | stevan++ | * the Perl6::MM::* types are fleshed out
22:20 svnbot6 r7802 | stevan++ |     - tests added for them too
22:20 svnbot6 r7802 | stevan++ | * started a Perl6::MetaModel::Bootstrap module to
22:20 svnbot6 r7802 | stevan++ |   explore what the metamodel will look like using
22:20 svnbot6 r7802 | stevan++ |   these types. Currently we just have the contents
22:20 svnbot6 r7802 | stevan++ |   of Gnosis.pm from MM 2.0, and I tested that
22:20 svnbot6 r7802 | stevan++ |   $::Class->add_method works properly (although it
22:20 svnbot6 r7802 | stevan++ |   is spelled much differently, see t/metamodel/01*.t
22:20 svnbot6 r7802 | stevan++ |   for more details)
22:21 hexmode has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
22:21 azuroth_tafe karma time :D
22:21 jabbot azuroth_tafe: time :D has neutral karma
22:21 evalbot_7801 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
22:22 * stevan is off to dinner &
22:22 evalbot_7802 has joined #perl6
22:33 autrijus ingy: new bible snap when you got some cycles, thanks
22:33 iblechbot has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
22:33 Amnesiac has joined #perl6
22:41 * autrijus waves and sleeps &
22:41 stef_ has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22:41 geoffb g'night, autrijus
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22:59 Juerd autrijus about wendy: it is rare that I meet someone with a higher internal clock speed and raw mental capacity compared to mine.
22:59 Juerd rotflol.
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23:33 eric256 svn check
23:33 svnbot6 r7803 | eric256++ |  r14391@feather:  eric256 | 2005-10-31 23:40:00 +0100
23:33 svnbot6 r7803 | eric256++ |  local branck
23:33 svnbot6 r7803 | eric256++ |  r14401@feather:  eric256 | 2005-11-01 00:16:03 +0100
23:33 svnbot6 r7803 | eric256++ |  - Add CSS styling to directory.tmpl
23:33 svnbot6 r7803 | eric256++ |  r14402@feather:  eric256 | 2005-11-01 00:23:58 +0100
23:33 svnbot6 r7803 | eric256++ |  - t/var/var.t fixed link heading
23:33 svnbot6 r7803 | eric256++ |  r14403@feather:  eric256 | 2005-11-01 00:27:05 +0100
23:33 svnbot6 r7803 | eric256++ |  - t/syntax/stmt_or_expr.t Changed to A04
23:33 eric256 mhmm...that didn't quite work as expected.
23:33 eric256 can any svk guru point to my error?
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23:45 geoffb eric256, as aut* said: svk push -l or svk push --verbatim
23:45 eric256 i did push -l
23:45 eric256 i'll have to try --verbatim next time. ;)
23:57 svnbot6 r7804 | eric256++ | t/builtins/perl.t added link to .perl and ref quote
23:57 eric256 --verbatim worked. thanks ;)
23:57 eric256 karma eric256
23:57 jabbot eric256: eric256 has karma of 27
23:57 eric256 i think that went down. lol
23:58 eric256 later all
23:58 eric256 has left

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