Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-11-02

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo | Niecza | Specs

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Time Nick Message
00:00 teddyns eh :)
00:00 r0nny and even the spec isnt complete
00:01 Odin-LAP Nor will it ever be, I suspect.
00:01 r0nny anyone here knows the svn url of parrot ?
00:02 r0nny Odin-LAP: i think around 2007 the spec is done ;P
00:02 geoffb r0nny, http://svn.perl.org/parrot/trunk
00:02 r0nny thx
00:02 teddyns why so long ? :-/
00:02 geoffb np
00:02 Odin-LAP r0nny: Until someone comes up with a really cool idea, perhaps. ;)
00:02 r0nny hmm
00:02 geoffb teddyns, there is MUCH that the designers needed to learn to make a language so all-powerful.
00:03 geoffb (That sounds like a joke.  It's not.)
00:03 webmind ey Odin-LAP :)
00:03 r0nny well
00:03 r0nny they will never reach perl7
00:03 Odin-LAP geoffb: Yeah. Substantial parts of which were the implementation of CommonLisp-with-syntax. :)
00:03 teddyns omg :/
00:04 geoffb Odin-LAP, heh
00:04 webmind uhm
00:04 Odin-LAP webmind: Greetinks. You're here too, eh?
00:04 teddyns ,thats too bad
00:04 webmind perl6 -will- finish imho
00:04 r0nny since murphys law tells its not possible
00:04 webmind just takes the time it'll take
00:04 webmind Odin-LAP, ofcourse.. big perl6 fan :)
00:05 teddyns we are able to run
00:05 teddyns perl 5.8 scripts with perl6 right ?
00:05 r0nny yeah
00:05 Odin-LAP geoffb: Which, I note, is not a trivial accomplishment. It's quite amazing, how well it seems to have succeeded.
00:05 r0nny bttw - will pugs die if my libperl is with ithreads, and i use threads ?
00:06 geoffb Odin-LAP, nodnod
00:06 Odin-LAP webmind: Well, I wonder at the definition of 'finish'. Sure, you'll have it in a running, production-ready form eventually.
00:07 webmind Odin-LAP, well it's extendable
00:07 webmind Odin-LAP, but I see finish as a production ready product
00:08 webmind with a stable syntax
00:08 webmind perl6 is certainly heading that way
00:08 webmind with goos speed
00:08 webmind good
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00:16 azurot_tafe is there anywhere I can find all the synopses? or are there just numbers missing?
00:16 r0nny install Perl6::Bible from cpan
00:17 azurot_tafe ahh, ok
00:17 geoffb azurot_tafe, there are still some missing, but that's as complete as it gets outside of @larry's collective mind
00:18 azurot_tafe cool. thanks :D
00:19 geoffb np
00:22 azurot_tafe ah, so it looks like all of the available ones are up on eric256's feather anyway
00:22 azurot_tafe oh no, never mind
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00:43 Juerd 01:27 < azurot_tafe> ah, so it looks like all of the available ones are up on eric256's feather anyway
00:43 Juerd eric256's feather? :)
00:44 Khisanth yes, he rooted the box yesterday! :P
00:44 Juerd Heh
00:44 Juerd People needing root access can just ask for it :)
00:45 Juerd If I trust them, and they really need it (or it would help me much if they had it), they can get it
00:49 sili i need root
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00:58 azurot_tafe ;-p I mean, his feather.perl6.something/~eric256 ^_^
00:58 azurot_tafe byesss
00:58 azurot_tafe :q
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01:03 Juerd sili: Why?
01:03 sili bragging rights
01:03 sili and i really need them.
01:04 Juerd ok
01:04 sili i'd actually like to figure out how parrot works
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01:04 Juerd You don't need root access for that :)
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01:32 rafl autrijus: ping
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02:27 svnbot6 r7814 | stevan++ | Perl6::ObjectSpace -
02:27 svnbot6 r7814 | stevan++ | * added optional parameters to closure
02:27 svnbot6 r7814 | stevan++ | * cleaned up some more of the bootstrap code
02:27 svnbot6 r7814 | stevan++ |     - added some tests for the Class (simple ones for now)
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09:42 coral does VInt have an upto method (from ruby) or equivalent?
09:42 coral VInt.upto(n) to get VInt..n in perl
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10:11 nwc10 autrijus: in the S17 draft there's no mention about sharing-or-not of variables.
10:12 nwc10 oh wait. I think I see. 'shared, transactional variables by default'
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10:32 blackman selam kanal
10:32 blackman hi?
10:32 nwc10 Hi
10:32 blackman where are you?
10:33 nwc10 London
10:33 blackman ok
10:33 blackman turkey
10:33 blackman dou you know??
10:33 nwc10 Ah right. I was trying to work out what language "selam" was in so I could find something to translate it
10:34 blackman :)))
10:34 blackman you are f or m?
10:34 nwc10 M
10:34 blackman me too
10:37 clkao nwc10: you know there's london pm meeting tomorrow and first timer can get free beer
10:37 nwc10 I didn't know the second part. Or at least notice
10:37 * clkao pretends nwc10 is newcomer, at least on #perl6  :P
10:38 nwc10 I've been here before.
10:38 clkao scarily you are the guy behind my computer
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11:18 azuroth ?eval 10 | 2
11:18 evalbot_7814 2
11:18 azuroth ?eval 10 +| 2
11:18 evalbot_7814 10
11:18 azuroth ?eval 10 +| 3
11:18 evalbot_7814 11
11:18 azuroth ?eval 10 | 3
11:18 evalbot_7814 3
11:21 rafl_ Shouldn't that return a junction?
11:21 azuroth ohh right
11:22 rafl_ ?eval (10|3)
11:22 evalbot_7814 3
11:22 rafl_ ?eval (10|3|10|10|10).pick
11:22 evalbot_7814 3
11:22 rafl_ ?eval (10|3|10|10|10).pick
11:22 evalbot_7814 3
11:23 wolverian evalbot doesn't output junctions right
11:23 azuroth hmm
11:24 wolverian ?eval any "a".."d"
11:24 evalbot_7814 "a"
11:24 wolverian works in pugs itself.
11:25 azuroth ahh
11:26 azuroth junctions are so cool
11:27 webmind hmm /me keeps miing up names
11:27 webmind what are >>*<< contrustructions calles again ?
11:27 wolverian hyperops
11:27 webmind right
11:28 wolverian see S03, "Hyper operators"
11:28 wolverian (we need an @index into the synopses.. any takers? :)
11:28 wolverian (a la lambdabot)
11:29 azuroth night
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11:30 wolverian good night
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11:49 azuroth ?eval 5 < 10 < 15
11:49 evalbot_7814 bool::true
11:49 azuroth ?eval 5 < 2 < 15
11:49 evalbot_7814 bool::false
11:49 azuroth ?eval 5 < 20 < 15
11:49 evalbot_7814 bool::false
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13:16 svnbot6 r7815 | iblech++ | * Pugs.Parser: Parse \ in subroutine signatures (sub foo (\$arglist)),
13:16 svnbot6 r7815 | iblech++ |   so we don't have to add eval()s around arglist tests.
13:16 svnbot6 r7815 | iblech++ | * t/data_types/lists.t: \(1,2,3) does no longer create an array of refs,
13:16 svnbot6 r7815 | iblech++ |   per latest S03 (r6417).
13:16 svnbot6 r7815 | iblech++ | * New t/data_types/arglist.t: Added tests for arglists/tuples (\(1,2,3) creates
13:16 svnbot6 r7815 | iblech++ |   an arglist now, as does sub foo (\$arglist); *$arglist flattens arglists).
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15:00 verbalkent im new to perl, are there any online begginer sites,a or communities?
15:00 webmind perl or perl6 ?
15:00 jp-autark has joined #perl6
15:01 verbalkent regular perl i suppose
15:02 Juerd verbalkent: perlmonks.org
15:02 verbalkent thnk u sir
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15:06 PerlJam heh "regular perl"
15:06 PerlJam That may just become a common phrase in the not too distant future
15:06 integral vs. "diet perl" and "new perl"?
15:07 liz6 cherry perl?
15:07 PerlJam all of the above
15:07 Khisanth PerlJam: and that would be perl6's fault!
15:07 PerlJam Khisanth: no, it would be the fault of those people who resist the perl6!
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15:21 verbalkent :( did i come off too n00bish?
15:21 integral verbalkent: IRC quickly teaches people to spell :)
15:22 verbalkent spelling is overated
15:23 theorbtwo Spelling is one of the primary ways to size up your character in a text-based environment.
15:23 eric256 http://feather.perl6.nl:8027/cgi-bin/wiki.pl slowest incomplete implementation of a wiki ever ;)
15:23 webmind perl6 wiki?
15:23 theorbtwo Of course it lies just as much as personal grooming and clothing taste, the pimary way to size up your character in a real life environment.
15:23 eric256 porting http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=503926 to p6
15:24 verbalkent hmm, cant argue witht hat
15:25 verbalkent spelling means alot, but grammer and punctuation must be fodder in your case :p
15:25 integral "can't"
15:25 integral "a lot"
15:26 theorbtwo Spelling, grammar, and puncuation are all important -- grammar quite likely the most important.
15:26 verbalkent integral has the grasp
15:26 verbalkent lol, sort of like a pocket secretary
15:28 PerlJam "secretary"?
15:28 verbalkent exactly
15:28 verbalkent the secret that scared the w out of wary
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15:45 steve197888888 Hi all..
15:45 liz6 yo!
15:45 steve197888888 I have a small Problem: $data->{Body}->{Call}->{return}->{item} is an array
15:45 steve197888888 but I don't know how to run through it.
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15:46 steve197888888 foreach doesn't work.
15:46 eric256 @{$data->{Body}->{Call}->{return}->{item}}
15:46 eric256 btw stever this is a channel about perl6 now perl5...you probably want #perl
15:47 steve197888888 I wanted to go to the newbee channel..
15:47 steve197888888 they told me to get here :)
15:47 liz6 who's they?
15:47 steve197888888 the guys from the perl channel
15:48 eric256 they must have misunderstood and thought you meant new perl
15:48 steve197888888 OK I C.
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15:49 steve197888888 Thanks Wi will go there then eric. Thanks for your help!
15:49 kolibrie eric256++ # very diplomatic
15:50 eric256 kolibrie...its early, i promise to get grouchy later. ;)
15:51 eric256 whats the syntax for perl5 regexes ?
15:51 theorbtwo rx:perl5/.../, IIRC.
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15:52 eric256 thanks
15:52 rafl Or rx:p5//
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16:22 nothingm1ch obra: ping
16:23 eric256 lol if you use a given block in the main body of  a program...it seems to be ending the program when it matches a block...seems being key here.
16:23 obra hey
16:23 eric256 ?eval given 1 { when 1 { say "test" } } say "test2";
16:23 evalbot_7815 test test2 bool::true
16:24 obra nothingm1ch: what's up?
16:24 eric256 hmmm... or not.
16:24 nothingm1ch is rt.cpan.org still being upgraded?
16:25 obra yes. I spent much of yesterday gnashing my teeth after doing a full import and having the new server cry
16:25 nothingm1ch ouch
16:25 nothingm1ch just wanted to make sure because I suspected cache issues or something
16:26 obra hm? what cache issues?
16:26 obra still not seeing a new server? ;)
16:26 nothingm1ch i'm seeing "Unsatisfied dependency chain in Joins Users_2 at ..."
16:27 obra ?!
16:27 obra ok. hang on a sec
16:27 obra try now?
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16:36 nothingm1ch obra: thanks
16:36 nothingm1ch sorry for not noticing
16:37 obra no worries. glad it's better
16:37 nothingm1ch now i forgot what I actually wanted to do in rt.cpan.org ;-)
16:37 obra :/
16:38 nothingm1ch i think i just wanted to link someone
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16:47 Juerd eric256: What makes it slow? You didn't use a sound software design, I hope.
16:49 eric256 Juerd. loading HTML::Template and Textile are whats slow. but i plan on factoring those out once its working
16:50 eric256 just using them as a crutch for the moment
16:50 Juerd Use regexes instead of templating
16:50 Juerd I don't know what Textile does
16:50 eric256 it handles all the Wiki formating.
16:50 Juerd Go back in time if you want to use pugs in production, especially when it's CGI
16:50 eric256 like i said, they will go once i get the rest converted
16:51 Juerd Consider mod_pugs
16:52 eric256 link?
16:53 Juerd undef
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17:10 * eric256 nearly has new,edit,and view completly ported. ;) then just build my own template engine. ;)
17:10 obra isn't micromason already ported?
17:11 eric256 ?eval my %wiki; my $topic = "hello"; %wiki<$topic> = "hello"; %wiki.perl.say;
17:11 evalbot_7815 {("$topic" => "hello"),} bool::true
17:11 eric256 what am i doing wrong there?
17:12 theorbtwo Looks fine to me.
17:12 theorbtwo (Except for the redundant say.)
17:12 eric256 look at the output
17:12 theorbtwo Oh, wait, nevermind.
17:12 eric256 lol
17:12 theorbtwo You want curlies, not angles.
17:12 eric256 thanks. figured it was something like that
17:13 theorbtwo ?eval my %wiki; my $topic = "hello"; %wiki{$topic} = "hello"; %wiki.perl.say;
17:13 theorbtwo = "hello"; %wiki.perl.say;
17:13 theorbtwo ?eval my %wiki; my $topic = "hello"; %wiki{$topic} = "hello"; %wiki.perl.say;
17:13 evalbot_7815 {("hello" => "hello"),} bool::true
17:13 xerox Why ".perl.say" ?
17:13 eric256 becausei  felt like it ;)
17:14 xerox ?eval my %wiki; my $topic = "hello"; %wiki{$topic} = "hello"; %wiki.say;
17:14 evalbot_7815 hellohello bool::true
17:14 xerox Ah, like a prettyprinter.
17:14 theorbtwo .perl prettyprints; .say outputs.
17:14 xerox ?eval my %wiki; my $topic = "hello"; %wiki{$topic} = "hello"; %wiki.perl;
17:14 evalbot_7815 "\{(\"hello\" => \"hello\"),}"
17:14 xerox I see :D
17:15 eric256 ?eval my %wiki; my $topic = "hello"; %wiki{$topic} = "hello"; %wiki;
17:15 evalbot_7815 {("hello" => "hello"),}
17:15 eric256 eval bot does some magic for us ;)
17:15 theorbtwo evalbot++
17:17 eric256 can someone help me convert a p5 regex to a rule?  \b([A-Z]\w+[A-Z]\w+)
17:17 eric256 its for WikiWords
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17:18 eric256 ?eval "this is a TesT" ~~ /\b([A-Z]\w+[A-Z]\w+/
17:18 evalbot_7815 Error: cannot cast from VUndef to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
17:19 eric256 ?eval "this is a TesT" ~~ /\b([A-Z]\w+[A-Z]\w+)/
17:19 evalbot_7815 Error: cannot cast from VUndef to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
17:19 PerlJam eric256: \b(<[A..Z]>\w+<[A..Z]>\w+)
17:19 PerlJam althought I'm not sure PGE knows about \b yet.
17:19 PerlJam (heck, I don't even know if it groks \w)
17:20 eric256 ?eval my $x = "hello"; $x ~~ /\w/;
17:20 evalbot_7815 Error: cannot cast from VUndef to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
17:21 eric256 thats not the same error i get on the command line...soo odd
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17:22 eric256 no error on command line, error about PGE.pbc in interactive and that completely different error in eval bot
17:22 theorbtwo Whee, eric.
17:23 Limbic_Region ?eval say [+] 1,2,3
17:23 evalbot_7815 6 bool::true
17:23 theorbtwo Does no error imply that it works as expected?
17:23 eric256 theorbtwo...not a clue what it implies.
17:23 theorbtwo ?eval say [.{}] {a=>{b=>{c=>42}}}, qw(a b c)
17:24 evalbot_7815 42 bool::true
17:24 Limbic_Region ?eval say [+] @_
17:24 evalbot_7815 Error: Undeclared variable: "@_"
17:25 eric256 doesn;'t matter. pugs doesn't implement subst yet.....so how do i do regex replacements in pugs right now?
17:28 * Limbic_Region used Pugs to win a golf contest
17:28 Limbic_Region http://perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=504986
17:29 eric256 ?eval my $entry = "this is a TesT"; $entry ~~ s:perl5/\b([A-Z]\w+[A-Z]\w+)/"<a href=''>$1</a>"/; $entry;
17:29 evalbot_7815 \"this is a TesT"
17:30 eric256 sure... running that  in my prog gives me the "*** Can't modify constant item: VUndef "error
17:33 geoffb Limbic_Region++
17:33 eric256 ?eval my $entry = "this is a TesT"; $entry ~~ s:perl5/\s([A-Z]\w+[A-Z]\w+)/[$0]/; $entry;
17:33 evalbot_7815 \"this is a TesT"
17:34 eric256 anyone got a clue on this one? /me is frustrated. lol
17:35 geoffb ?eval my $entry = "this is a TesT" ~ ""; $entry ~~ s:perl5/\s([A-Z]\w+[A-Z]\w+)/[$0]/; $entry;
17:35 evalbot_7815 \"this is a TesT"
17:35 geoffb ?eval my $entry = "this is a TesT" ~ "a"; $entry ~~ s:perl5/\s([A-Z]\w+[A-Z]\w+)/[$0]/; $entry;
17:35 evalbot_7815 \"this is a[TesTa]"
17:36 geoffb You weren't matching the second \w+
17:36 eric256 hehehe. duh
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17:36 geoffb :-)
17:37 eric256 thanks. me talks a walk around the room breathing deeply. thats what i get for using someone elses regex!
17:37 geoffb :-)
17:38 geoffb .oO( The first \w+ should probably be \w+? and the second \w* )
17:39 eric256 yea thats what i changed to.
17:40 eric256 http://feather.perl6.nl:8027​/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?topic=Test thanks geoffb!
17:44 eric256 working wiki ~~ ish
17:52 obra eric256: have you considered porting cwest's minimalist wiki?
17:58 eric256 i dont know what that is soo....no. lol
17:58 eric256 porting the recent one on perlmonks...well the port is mostly done, now working on removing the need for HTML::Template since it isn't very fast when loading perl5:HTML::Templat;
18:02 stevan autrijus: ping
18:03 justatheory has quit IRC ()
18:03 liz6 I think autrijus is in $work mode at the moment...
18:03 justatheory has joined #perl6
18:03 justatheory has quit IRC (Client Quit)
18:04 justatheory has joined #perl6
18:04 justatheory has quit IRC (Client Quit)
18:04 stevan liz6: ahh, ok,.. if he pops back into reality and feels like talking objectspace,.. I have some questions/thoughts to discuss with him
18:05 liz6 will pass it on...
18:05 stevan liz6: muchas gracias
18:05 * nothingm1ch wishes he was in a condition to discuss threads
18:05 Juerd rehi
18:05 nothingm1ch i was busy with work
18:05 nothingm1ch now I'm  sick
18:06 nothingm1ch is now known as nothingmuch
18:06 Juerd Being in a condition usually means being compared
18:06 nothingmuch compared?
18:06 Juerd Yes
18:06 nothingmuch to what?
18:06 Juerd Most conditions are comparisons
18:06 liz6 nothingmuch: maybe you need some async { get_better() } ?
18:06 Juerd liz6: Then just the other thread gets better ;)
18:06 nothingmuch liz6: well, my skin around the eyes are swollen
18:07 liz6 $health : shared ?
18:07 justatheory has joined #perl6
18:07 nothingmuch so I'll need a blocking sem-put on that resource
18:07 Juerd Shared health. Hmmm... Interesting idea :)
18:07 nothingmuch till I can see well enough to read
18:07 justatheory has quit IRC (Client Quit)
18:07 liz6 nothingmuch: best wishes!
18:07 nothingmuch grazie
18:07 Juerd nothingmuch: Be careful to avoid deadlocks
18:08 * nothingmuch goes to have a salt bath
18:08 justatheory has joined #perl6
18:08 Juerd nothingmuch: Have fun, and get well soon
18:08 nothingmuch thank you
18:08 justatheory has quit IRC (Client Quit)
18:09 justatheory has joined #perl6
18:10 justatheory has quit IRC (Client Quit)
18:10 * stevan thinks justatheory is having a bad "net" day
18:10 justatheory has joined #perl6
18:11 Juerd justatheory: Please, fix whatever is wrong and stay.
18:11 justatheory has quit IRC (Client Quit)
18:12 justatheory has joined #perl6
18:12 justatheory has quit IRC (Client Quit)
18:12 nothingmuch has quit IRC ("Lost terminal")
18:12 * eric256 is not sure that replaceing HTML::template bought him much speed....
18:13 justatheory has joined #perl6
18:14 Juerd autrijus: You mention in your journal that you need more pause time for jokes and to digress less, but I think the quick jokes and digressions added to the overall (positive) feel of the presentation
18:14 justatheory Juerd: I would, but what's wrong is that a clipboard fell and cracked  my PowerBook monitor. :-(
18:14 Juerd autrijus: I don't know if others would agree with me on this, though
18:14 Juerd justatheory: You say that as if it's unfixable
18:14 Juerd eric256: Have you profiled the thing yet?
18:14 justatheory Juerd: I say it as if it's a tragedy. And it is.
18:15 justatheory But I've been trying to get the laptop to use an external monitor, and kept going to sleep and waking up. Sorry 'bout that.
18:15 Khisanth hmm
18:17 eric256 i've never profiled any p6 code ;)
18:17 * liz6 fetches autrijus for some dinner and will be back later
18:18 Juerd Whooo!
18:18 Juerd FINALLY
18:18 Juerd after all these years
18:18 Juerd a sticky drink in my keyboard
18:18 Juerd I thought it'd never happen
18:19 eric256 http://feather.perl6.nl:8027​/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?topic=TesT
18:19 eric256 working pugs wiki....could be prettier. but it works! ;)
18:19 Juerd cdltbn56.epf r9ntc8gh b,4;ei jxr9lcntwh bmwcghtbwm jk23',a o;qj jk
18:19 Juerd y5f6piu  bmnthbm w mx
18:19 Juerd sorry about that
18:20 Juerd It uses wiki syntax? That's unfortunate
18:21 PerlJam Juerd: unplug it and hose it down with de-ionized water and let it dry completely before using it again.  This will minimize future stuck keys from latent sugar.
18:21 r0nny has joined #perl6
18:21 Juerd PerlJam: I think I'll just buy a new one. I should be using more ergonomical keyboards than this one anyway
18:22 Juerd I have no reason to believe any sticky substance has reached the membrane too
18:22 geoffb Goldtouch++, BTW
18:22 geoffb (If you're about to buy one)
18:23 Juerd And I have 40+ casing-and-keys-compatible keyboards in stock, so I can replace parts :)
18:23 Juerd goldtouch? /me googleth
18:23 geoffb www.goldtouch.com
18:23 eric256 Juerd. no. it doesn't use Wiki anything. lol. just linking between preformated pages. andyour the bastard you requested a wiki way back so be nice
18:23 r0nny yo
18:23 Juerd geoffb: Ah, I see. No, not what I had in mind.
18:24 Juerd eric256: Oh, I am nice!
18:24 Juerd geoffb: I like the kinesis-ergo "countered" keyboards.
18:25 geoffb I thought it was a bit odd at first, but man are my wrists happy to not be stuck with whatever stupid angle some KB designer thought was "average"
18:25 r0nny portages svn feature just rocks :) now i allways have a propper install from svn :)
18:25 eric256 what was taht kwid formating thing before?
18:25 geoffb (MS Natural KB)-- # Assuming all people are the same
18:25 Juerd I can't load goldtouch.com
18:25 Jooon eric256: more intutive pod format, and parsed differently
18:26 Juerd geoffb: It moves the strain to your shoulders if you're skinny/narrow
18:26 geoffb Juerd, hmmm, odd, it's printed right on the KB in friendly letters.  :-)  Lemme check
18:26 eric256 Jooon...i would need enoug info to implement it! ;)
18:26 Jooon eric256: wasn't my spec ok? :) ingy knows
18:26 r0nny darn - still erros on Prelude.pm
18:26 geoffb Juerd, you mean the MSNKB?
18:26 Juerd geoffb: With a kinesis keyboard, my wrists can be straight, and my shoulders natural (upper arms parallel with body)
18:26 eric256 google gives that address. but it never loads
18:27 Juerd geoffb: o
18:27 Juerd Hey
18:27 Juerd My  key is't workig aymore
18:27 geoffb heh
18:27 r0nny does soneone know, where it installs prelude ?
18:27 Juerd Ah, I do't eed it ayway
18:27 r0nny i need to comment the pir line out for a test
18:27 Juerd You still kow what I'm sayig, right?
18:27 geoffb If you meant the goldtouch, someone gave me a great piece of advice once -- put the KB in your lap, almost shoved against your belt.
18:27 Juerd It's ot as if the  is used really much, or aythig.
18:28 Juerd geoffb: I've used alike keyboards
18:28 geoffb (MS Natural KB--) # Again, this time for the "hand rest" that gets in the way of the lap trick
18:28 eric256 http://www.fentek-ind.com/ergo.htm lots of funky keyboards
18:28 geoffb Hmmm, goldtouch.com is timing out for me too.  I wonder if their having DC problems
18:28 geoffb "they're"
18:28 theorbtwo Timeout for me as well.
18:29 Juerd I should be able to discover ways to type a lot without this specific letter...
18:29 eric256 Juerd just don't usa any words with it in them. ;)
18:29 geoffb What was that novel that someone wrote without ever using "e"?
18:29 r0nny anyone ??
18:29 eric256 thats gotta be horrible to read.
18:30 Juerd Without Es? The whole book?
18:30 geoffb And decently springy keys are nice, too
18:30 geoffb Juerd, yep.  It was to prove it could be done.  Which in English is REALLY hard
18:30 Juerd geoffb: That's right :)
18:31 eric256 r0nny. your questions are confusing. "where it installs prelude?" do you mean where prelude is pre compiled into pugs?  there is an ENV flag you can set for that i beleive.  but what does that have to do with pir?
18:31 Juerd geoffb: It's hard to avoid this key too
18:31 justatheory has quit IRC ()
18:31 geoffb When I took typing classes in high school, we had some manual typewriters, some IBM Selectrics and some Apple IIs.  Everyone wanted the Selectrics for speed exams
18:31 Juerd geoffb: It takes much more time to type a lie
18:31 Juerd eh
18:31 Juerd li.e
18:31 mtve has joined #perl6
18:31 Juerd haha
18:32 r0nny eric256: i just want to comment out the eval option for pir, wich casues problems in prelude.pm for some reason
18:32 Juerd Ah, well, it also takes more time to type a lie...
18:32 r0nny eric256: it allways tells, there is a syntax error at this line
18:32 geoffb heh
18:32 Juerd I were to say line, though (hurrah for copy/paste)
18:33 geoffb :-)
18:33 eric256 so comment it out r0nny then make
18:33 Juerd altermatively, I could just start typimg M's imstead
18:33 geoffb Thankfully, English is an incredibly redundant language.  And yet, somehow shorter than all the Romance languages, which says something.
18:33 Juerd geoffb: heh
18:34 eric256 http://www.spinelessbooks.com/gadsby/
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18:34 r0nny eric256: is there a way, to use another file as prelude on runtime ?
18:34 Juerd Okay, with IRC, the lack of this key is easy to work aroud, but CLIs are less flexible...
18:35 r0nny since i use portage to install it from svn
18:36 Juerd Oh, hit.
18:36 Juerd Moe key ae ow failig
18:36 eric256 LOL
18:36 eric256 r0nny...why do you make your life so difficult? ;)
18:36 eric256 and what did you do to prelude.pm to get that error in the first place?
18:36 jp-autark has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
18:36 theorbtwo Juerd, if a-f are OK, and you use gnome, hold down crtl-shift, and type the hex uncode char code of the missing key.
18:37 r0nny eric256: my %foo=evalfile("foo.yaml",:lang<yaml>);
18:37 Juerd adbcdefghijklmropqrtuvwxy
18:38 r0nny eric256: keeps to fail all the time
18:38 Juerd whee do2er that exta d c2ome f2om?;2~
18:38 Juerd ard the 2r?;2~
18:38 Juerd uh oh
18:38 Juerd it'r quickly gettirg much wore
18:38 r0nny lol
18:38 theorbtwo Juerd: I think it's time to unplug and swap out.
18:38 Juerd theorbtwo: what'r the fur ir that?;2~
18:39 Juerd thir i geat ertetairmairt
18:39 Juerd iff you car rtill follow what I'm rayirg
18:39 Juerd typirg
18:39 geoffb easy
18:39 eric256 r0nny, why would that command cause an error on a different line in prelude.pm? that makes no sense.  you are chasing the wrong problem
18:39 Juerd G2o2od, ther I have r oear2o to rr~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~rrrrr​rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
18:39 eric256 perhaps your yaml is badly formated? or that option just plain doesn't work. either way a new prelude.pm won't help you
18:39 Juerd hr~it~
18:39 Juerd r d7ba~u5krpac~e~~
18:39 Khisanth Juerd: it just looks like you are drunk :)
18:40 Juerd hcchien: rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr​rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
18:40 Juerd furc~
18:40 Juerd dramitr
18:40 r0nny eric256: it allways failed in the pir line
18:40 Juerd ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~a~~~~~~~~~~​~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
18:40 r0nny eric256: so i want to try disabling
18:40 Juerd h~ehe~, ~thri~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~i~ ~~t r~gd~rrrrrr.
18:40 Juerd rmedyr~ ~he~p m~e~ ~he~e!
18:40 geoffb *Now* It's gone beyond my ability to keep up
18:40 geoffb oh, but I got that last line!
18:40 Juerd geoffb: Ca~' tr~~ay~ r~~it~r'r ea~y r~f ~me r~.t ,r~wri.t~h2o.t~ ~ar~y t~a0~rpa~~ ~ ~ay~ ~.t ~rp ~.h ~.igd~r
18:41 Juerd lllllllllllllllllllll
18:41 geoffb hmmm, just below comprehension, that
18:41 Juerd rrlyla
18:41 Juerd ~y ~lhi
18:42 * eric256 slaps Juerd and dumps a bucket of water on his head
18:43 eric256 r0nny. on a script with no evalfile it still fails on that line?
18:43 Juerd reached the end of this thing's life
18:43 geoffb He's back!
18:44 Juerd copy~paste sucks
18:45 eric256 http://www.themodernword.c​om/scriptorium/perec.html <-- author of a book with no e's ... apparently there have been 2. must not be that hard
18:49 Limbic_Region besides the potential infinite loop, did Abigail have anything to say with the talks autrijus presented?
18:54 r0nny eric256: same with slurp
18:56 eric256 what error do you get when slurping?
18:57 r0nny syntax error: line 2, column 2
18:57 r0nny    at Prelude.pm line 66, column 30-64
18:59 r0nny wich is the text Pugs::Internals::eval_parrot($code)
18:59 eric256 i believe thats a syntax error IN the file you are evaling
18:59 eric256 hince the first line/colm...the second is begging to trace up the call tree
19:00 r0nny well - if i dont eval, there is no error
19:00 eric256 or call list or whatever we call that. lunch later.
19:00 eric256 right. because you arn't evaling the code, the code you are evaling has the error, or it thinks it does
19:00 eric256 the yaml implementation is limited
19:00 eric256 errors reported in Prelude.pm are off by a couple of lines i beleive, something about the compile process
19:01 eric256 later
19:01 eric256 has left
19:05 r0nny darn
19:06 r0nny allways it dies on eval slurp "foo.yaml",:lang<yaml>
19:07 r0nny oh -and pugscc tells it cant find the module Pugs.Internals if i do pugscc
19:10 r0nny cool
19:10 r0nny foind the sweetness of the do command from perl5
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19:27 Juerd re
19:27 Juerd Got another keyboard from my office :)
19:28 Juerd It's newer, and it actually feels different too. But it's the same keyboard.
19:28 Juerd Same model, bought at the same time, just not used until now.
19:28 Juerd Limbic_Region: Not that I can remember
19:28 Juerd Limbic_Region: Why this rather specific question?
19:30 lisppaste3 has quit IRC ("Want lisppaste3 in your channel? Email chandler AT unmutual.info.")
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19:43 apple-gunkies excuse me folks,  is there a synopsis or other document  that describes the current thinking on perl6 macros?
19:44 apple-gunkies S6 is pretty short on details :)
19:46 _SamB_ has joined #perl6
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19:50 r0nny apple-gunkies: u mean the howto for html comments ? ;P
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19:52 kolibrie apple-gunkies: I don't know of anything other than S06, and perhaps p6l
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20:01 r0nny anyone got an odea why Prelude.pm might break at the pir eval line ?
20:02 miagyrt has joined #perl6
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20:02 apple-gunkies thanks guys, guess I'll start digging through p6l.
20:03 miagyrt has left
20:03 kolibrie apple-gunkies: report your findings, if you find anything
20:08 gugod has joined #perl6
20:12 obra gugod! hi!
20:14 justatheory has joined #perl6
20:16 pmurias hi
20:17 pmurias what sdl bindings are availble for pugs?
20:17 pmurias i'am currently aware of chromatic Parrot::SDL
20:19 pmurias u
20:20 pmurias wanted to /u :)
20:23 * eric256 wonders if there will be a way to make a code block atomic.
20:24 eric256 atomic { my $fh = open ($file); $fh.print($data); $fh.close; } ... could be very nice ;)
20:25 theorbtwo ?eval my $x=1; atomic { $x++; die }; $x;
20:25 evalbot_7815 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&atomic"
20:25 theorbtwo Oh, could have sworn it was already there.
20:25 PerlJam theorbtwo: me too.
20:26 eric256 maybe its not safe?
20:26 PerlJam ?eval my $x=1; atomically { $x++; die }; $x;
20:26 evalbot_7815 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&atomically"
20:26 PerlJam I think we just have the wrong name.
20:27 PerlJam (or maybe it's just not there)
20:27 PerlJam But it ought to be.  We've talked about it enough.
20:27 eric256 can;t find it in the documents. not that that means alot
20:33 * eric256 peaks at the KWID module. and wonders how hard it would be to port
20:36 pmurias mention of atomic can be found in one of the talks
20:36 geoffb pmurias, 'use perl5:SDL;' works as well.
20:36 geoffb pmurias, 'use perl5:SDL;' works as well.
20:36 abt123 has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
20:36 geoffb oops . . . that's what I get for typing around a child
20:36 eric256 lol
20:36 eric256 Kwid::Event::Parser exists...hmmm
20:48 stevan eric256: that is missing a LOT of functionality
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20:49 stevan and event based parsing it probably not the right approach for Kwid
20:49 Limbic_Region has quit IRC ("tiuq\")
20:52 eric256 i have no idea. i don't even know the Kwid syntax... i thought i'd heard rumbling that tests would be documented with it
20:53 eric256 feel free to play on http://feather.perl6.nl:8027/cgi-bin/wiki.pl  its pretty low tech for the moment.  looking for a quick Wiki-ish formating system for it
20:53 stevan eric256: in the early days of Pugs,..there was talk of kwid replacing POD
20:53 stevan but I think that aspect has died in favor of the PerlDoc stuff
20:53 eric256 PerlDoc?  hehe
20:54 eric256 whats that?
20:54 stevan search.cpan.org for it,.. It was a DOM-like object structure for parsing POD, Kwid, and any other misc format
20:55 stevan eric256: very nice (wiki.pl) ... and it's almost as fast as kwiki :P
20:56 eric256 thanks.  it doesn't do much and it stores everyting with $fh.print($data.perl);  but its a start.
20:57 eric256 i'm thinking about haveing it write the HTML files, and just re-write the HTML on edit. then viewing is fast and editing is the same speed
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21:04 pmurias anybody interested can see the beginnings of my perl6 tutorial at www.yourcargo.org/draft.txt
21:05 evalbot_7815 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
21:05 svnbot6 r7816 | autrijus++ | * More S17 work: a vastly more improved alarm(), among other
21:05 svnbot6 r7816 | autrijus++ |   random changes and topics.
21:05 autrijus that doesn't work -- http://www.yourcargo.org:8080/draft.txt does
21:05 pmurias as you can it's in it's very early stages yet (94 lines)
21:05 eric256 pmurias ... i'm sure you could put something like that in the repo under docs
21:05 evalbot_7816 has joined #perl6
21:05 stevan hey autrijus :)
21:05 autrijus hey stevan.
21:05 autrijus sorry, was fried last night
21:06 stevan autrijus: no problem
21:06 autrijus and hence didn't do much but finished the pressure centre that is $job today
21:06 autrijus and got alarm() among other thing specced
21:06 autrijus eric256: DBI::PurePerl is only 400 lines in its main logic -- interested? :)
21:07 autrijus (and also DBD::mysql::PurePerl)
21:08 eric256 interested in....porting?  no thanks. ;) not yet at least.
21:08 stevan DBD::MySQLPP is very nicely written code IMHO
21:09 dduncan has joined #perl6
21:10 eric256 is there a way i can checkout a single directory? i want to push this wiki into the examples section. is that doable? and then check the wiki back out into my cgi-bin directory? or is that a n no? ;)
21:12 autrijus with svk?
21:12 autrijus sure, do this
21:12 autrijus svk import --to-checkout //mirror/pugs/examples/yourwiki /path/to/yourwiki
21:12 pmurias stevan: Also wonderfully modularized...
21:15 autrijus dduncan: have you looked at DBI::PurePerl and DBD::mysql::PurePerl?
21:15 autrijus dduncan: I'm wondering if it makes sense to port them over -- liz6 noticed that in all p6 examples, we start using
21:15 autrijus use perl5:DBI;
21:15 autrijus which should be a pretty good indication that it's a worthy module to have under 6.28.x
21:16 xerox autrijus!
21:16 autrijus hey xerox
21:16 eric256 does it matter where i run that command autrijus?
21:16 dduncan autrijus, do you mean the perl 5 ones, or is there a perl 6 version now?
21:16 autrijus eric256: nope
21:16 xerox You did show (an early-staged) Nymphaea in the Haskell.xul slides!  Woot!  you++ !
21:17 autrijus dduncan: no, I mean porting the 400 or so lines of p5 into p6
21:17 autrijus xerox: eh what? what?
21:17 xerox autrijus: there is that slide 'cairo + Gtk2hs' and then *poof*, the L-System renderer.  I wanted to thank you :-)
21:18 autrijus oh right :)
21:18 dduncan if you want me to do this, I can consider it ... but the one I do may be more of a look-alike that doesn't follow all the little details
21:18 autrijus dduncan: sure, lookalikes are fine
21:19 autrijus I'm just looking for things that can exercise OO stuff that also have max practical usability
21:19 xerox (Though you could have chosen a best shot ;-))
21:19 autrijus though a thought would have perl6 DBI working with perl5 DBDs
21:19 autrijus mmm scary thought
21:19 liz6 autrijus: yep, 2 scary..
21:20 dduncan this said, I feel I should put forth an invitation to the people that are designing DBI-2, should they want to participate
21:20 PerlJam dduncan: people?  I thought it was just Tim these days.
21:20 svnbot6 r7817 | eric256++ | Directory for svk import.
21:20 svnbot6 r7818 | eric256++ | Adding Wiki port of http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=503926
21:21 autrijus dduncan: yeah. the last time it came up, parrot was nowhere, our obj system doesn't really exist, so there was not much work done
21:21 autrijus Tim said he'd take a look but didn't report back
21:21 evalbot_7816 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
21:21 dduncan true, the current effort is parrot focused, for a multi-language solution, but they may be interested in this
21:21 stevan Tim recently asked for a p5 roles impl for DBI2
21:21 stevan robkinyon was building it
21:21 evalbot_7818 has joined #perl6
21:22 dduncan on the other hand, I could just make a clone of DBI1 in perl 6, with the assumption it will be rewritten after
21:22 dduncan I'll do something, anyway
21:23 PerlJam dduncan: you can't.  What will happen is that you're start on the clone of DBI1 and  then realize that you could make it better here and there, and you'll end up with DBI1.5  :)
21:23 dduncan but it may take liberties in improvement, such as the perl 6 Test.pm isn't exactly the same as the perl 5 Test::More
21:23 autrijus peripheral stuff are fine :)
21:23 autrijus s/stuff/changes/
21:23 dduncan sure, we'll make it DBI 1.5
21:23 autrijus cool! dduncan++
21:24 PerlJam dduncan++ indeed
21:24 pmurias it would be cool to be able to use DBI transparenty from browsers
21:24 Khisanth PerlJam: meh there already modules with same name as their p5 equivalent except they have a different interface!
21:24 dduncan I'm going to have to install MySQL on my system again, though, in order to test it with
21:24 Khisanth PerlJam: don't you mean he will end up with DBI6 ;)
21:24 PerlJam heh
21:24 autrijus you can then port DBD::NullP and DBD::Sponge :)
21:25 autrijus (<100 lines)
21:25 autrijus and then stevan can port his wonderfully sick but practical module
21:25 dduncan which is ...
21:25 stevan autrijus: which one?
21:25 autrijus (which is considerably more lines)
21:25 autrijus DBD::Mock
21:25 stevan :)
21:26 PerlJam a parrot DBI would be nice though.  Let all languages  reap the benefits.
21:26 autrijus PerlJam: or a P6 DBI with a reasonable P6->Parrot codegen
21:26 PerlJam or that.
21:26 autrijus and optimize the heck out of that (codegen)
21:27 autrijus in any case I suspect DBI::PurePerl to be easier to port than the full DBI XS to Parrot
21:27 dduncan damn straight!
21:27 PerlJam maybe.
21:27 PerlJam parrot makes many things simpler.
21:27 autrijus it's not about parrot :)
21:27 autrijus (it's about grokking the XS part)
21:28 autrijus DBI::PP to PIR may be interesting as well.
21:28 autrijus timtowtdi
21:28 dduncan all we really need though is a new code base that follows the same behaviour as the old version ... doesn't have to be a line by line or sub by sub port
21:28 autrijus dduncan: right
21:28 PerlJam Get the interfaces right and who cares what the code looks like :-)
21:28 dduncan and that makes it easier, since the DBI API is dead simple
21:28 autrijus it's basically just a way to query stuff from DBDs
21:29 autrijus and very few abstractions between them
21:34 PerlJam btw, if I'm not mistaken, DBI<->DBD does the same trick of having intermediate "languages" that meet in the middle.  This seems to be a good pattern.
21:36 autrijus well, it's a set of calls
21:37 autrijus but it's reasonably minimal and well specified, so yeah
21:37 integral surely that pattern's trivial since it occurs in any extensible layered situation...
21:37 stevan DBI->DBD also works on the idea of "reasonable defaults"
21:38 stevan writing a basic DBD is actually fairly simple,.. it's when you get into the fine grained details that it gets harder
21:39 autrijus integral: though to be nicely extensible, the pattern can be subtle to find
21:39 stevan autrijus: so any object space revelations you want to share?
21:40 autrijus stevan: thanks to you I was able to comprehend diagrams on PickAxe about metamodel and eigenclasses without squinting
21:40 stevan autrijus: :) glad I could help
21:40 stevan Pickaxe++ # i picked it up again recently
21:40 autrijus stevan: er no, except they have this weird ability to inspect all managed objects in existence
21:40 autrijus and I started thinking of doing that in hs
21:41 autrijus and then it occured to me that
21:41 stevan we need to spec the GC?
21:41 autrijus all the scalar array and hash contains would be counted as well
21:41 autrijus as they are objects in p6 but not in ruby
21:41 autrijus (I journaled about that)
21:41 stevan hmm, thats a good point
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21:42 stevan I am starting to think maybe we need to seperate our core objects from our user obejcts
21:42 autrijus so have to layers of runtime objects?
21:42 autrijus s/to/two/
21:42 stevan maybe
21:42 autrijus this just means there are things that don't get into MM/ObjSpace
21:42 autrijus right?
21:42 autrijus so you can still call methods on them but not extending them as such?
21:42 stevan what do you mean by "things"
21:43 autrijus things, as in objects in the runtime
21:43 stevan well I think we can make them accessible for extension and such, but we just don't count them as user objects
21:43 autrijus oh ok
21:43 autrijus so just a flag
21:43 stevan I mean,.. the GC should never need to reap Class, Object, Module, Package, etc
21:44 stevan they should never go out of scope anyway
21:44 stevan same with Scalar, Hash, Array, etc
21:44 stevan they are key to the language itself
21:44 autrijus but specific Class instances are reaped
21:44 autrijus as is Hash containers
21:44 stevan yes, they should be
21:44 stevan but the original ones,.. no,.. they should always stay around
21:44 autrijus it's just the ::Hash object itself that is not a "user obj"
21:45 autrijus but consider
21:45 autrijus ::Hash := ::MyHash; # whee!
21:45 autrijus suddenly the old hash stuff is outta scope
21:45 dduncan so I'll checkin a shell of this DBI in an hour or so ... but a name ...
21:45 stevan why is it out of scope?
21:45 dduncan I thought of naming it "DBI1"
21:45 autrijus it's not reachable
21:45 autrijus unless you have hash containers that's alive
21:45 dduncan and any drivers, "DBD1::*"
21:45 stevan ah,.. I see
21:46 theorbtwo autrijus: Don't the extant hashes... exactly.
21:46 stevan well maybe the whole "classes are but an illusion" idea of luquis works here
21:46 autrijus elaborate?
21:46 dduncan the 1 is intentional so that any uses of this module that become legacy don't interfere with the more solid "DBI" version 2 being worked on for the future
21:47 stevan well, if ::Hash is just a Role in the user space, and it is created in the outermost scope, then it should live long enough
21:47 autrijus dduncan: I think in light of multiversioning it's a bit defensive, but I'm fine if you do that :)
21:47 stevan the underlying impl will be in accessible ... luqui's "concrete type"
21:47 dduncan alternately, what "version" should I use?
21:47 autrijus stevan: ok, I understand and agree.
21:47 dduncan 1.5.0 perhaps?
21:47 theorbtwo OTOH, it'd be nifty if ::Hash = ::MyHash magically made {} and my %foo create MyHashes.
21:47 autrijus dduncan: sure
21:48 autrijus theorbtwo: that is the idea.
21:48 * stevan wonders if the crack in England is that much better than the crack in Germany, and why theorbtwo didnt bring any to the hackathon
21:48 autrijus doesn't see anything wrong with that idea, at least not yet
21:49 theorbtwo stevan: Huh?
21:49 stevan it is an interesting idea,.. but it's like overloading CORE::* stuff,.. you never know who is doing weird stuff, and what that will break
21:49 theorbtwo Yes, well, I wouldn't suggest actually doing so.
21:49 stevan theorbtwo: just joking,.. it is semi-insane
21:49 theorbtwo Esp assigning to it without temporalizing.
21:50 dduncan on the other hand, I can just call it "DBI" and "0.0.1", and this can be evolved into the actual version by Tim etc later
21:50 autrijus dduncan: yes.
21:50 PerlJam dduncan: DDBI (Duncan's DBI :)
21:50 stevan PerlJam: that would be DDDBI (Darren Duncan's DBI)
21:50 dduncan I'm not doing that ... that's what Rosetta is
21:50 liz6 isn't Perl 6 able to load modules by author?
21:51 stevan DBI-0.0.1-cpan:DDUNCAN should be fine IMO
21:51 autrijus liz6: yes.
21:51 liz6 stevan: right
21:51 PerlJam dduncan: what stevan said
21:51 liz6 so no need to use something other than DBI as namespace, right?
21:51 autrijus use DBI--cpan:DDUNCAN;
21:51 liz6 cool
21:52 autrijus liz6: right. that's what I meant by "in light of multiversioning"
21:52 * stevan praises the 3 part namespace,.. all hail the @Larry
21:52 * autrijus prays we get that in p5
21:52 dduncan should I include the cpan:DDUNCAN right from the start?
21:52 autrijus dduncan: sure why not
21:52 liz6 autrijus: I was interpreting mult-versioning more strictly: different versions of the same module / author to co-exist
21:53 stevan dduncan: you could also use email:dduncan@something.net or url:http://www.dduncan.net
21:53 autrijus liz6: nod
21:53 dduncan okay ... should help test the system, since I don't think anyone else is doing that
21:53 autrijus s/email:/mailto:/
21:53 autrijus and http:// is fine without url: :)
21:53 autrijus (at least afict)
21:53 dduncan if I have to associate it with myself, then my CPAN id is fine
21:53 theorbtwo ++ to whoever realized that it's cpan:, and not cpan://.  (Perlmonks got that wrong.)
21:53 stevan yeah,.. url:http: is a little redundant
21:53 jp-autark has joined #perl6
21:54 autrijus more importantly, it's spceed to take a URL :)
21:54 autrijus s/URL/URI/
21:54 autrijus and a URI scheme named url would be strange :)
21:55 theorbtwo There is a URI scheme named urn, BTW.
21:55 theorbtwo ...and yes, it is strange.
21:57 stevan autrijus: have you had any time to look at the Bootstrap file I have been hacking on?
21:57 autrijus MM-Bootstrap?
21:58 stevan MetaModel::Boostrap actually
21:58 autrijus the procedure to bootstrap from any capable chaos?
21:58 stevan yes that is the idea (although not reality yet)
21:58 obra 'evening
21:58 stevan hey obra
21:59 autrijus to get there you need the native p5 closures to go away
21:59 autrijus decomposing them into yet more prim calls
21:59 stevan autrijus: what native p5 closures? the sub {} stuff?
21:59 stevan the closure->new() objects are implemented in the runtime,.. they just need some type of executable chuck to work with
22:00 stevan s/chuck/chunk/
22:01 autrijus I mean the stuff like
22:01 autrijus my @nonemptyseqs = (map { (@{$_} ? $_ : ()) } @seqs);
22:02 autrijus they are trivial
22:02 stevan oh yeah,.. _merge needs help,..
22:02 eric256 can i ask...why aren't you doing all this work in p6/haskell?  i think i've asked before..but i'm still curious. i mean i figure its faster to prototype in p5. but arn't you now in the proccess of integrating it into pugs?
22:02 autrijus but that's also portability problems may rise
22:02 autrijus since it's not all messages
22:02 autrijus but the idea is sound and... you know, this is much much more readable than any of the previous boots
22:03 autrijus stevan++
22:03 stevan autrijus: I am thinking some kind of data driven approach might make sense
22:03 stevan where we spec the metamodel out as XML or something ;) and each backend builds a minimal translator of some kind
22:04 autrijus maybe. but what you are doing can already be subject to static analysis
22:04 stevan true
22:04 autrijus because the call graph (treating assignments as bindings and inlineable) represents the XML structure
22:04 autrijus so yes, I think we will do that (eventually)
22:04 autrijus with the canonical sequence in p6
22:04 stevan I might take the PyPy approach too of using list iterators rather than foreach loops
22:05 autrijus and do PIL->BootCode->P5
22:05 autrijus that's trivial to write
22:05 stevan that makes sense
22:05 autrijus iterators makes much more sense, yes.
22:05 autrijus (I was looking at the foreachs and wondering what to do)
22:06 stevan PyPy++ # :)
22:06 autrijus indeed
22:06 stevan ideally I can break it all down into message sends, and what little can't be done that way will need to be implemented by the runtime
22:07 autrijus though I suspect the "what little" there can also become kernel msgs
22:07 * stevan mumbles something about doing it all in pure lambda calculus
22:07 autrijus and the runtime just supplies the prim
22:07 stevan autrijus: quite true
22:07 autrijus stevan: that's what PIL is, you know :)
22:07 autrijus at least, readily translatable to
22:07 autrijus I like the idea of kernel msgs in this setting
22:08 stevan yeah me too
22:08 stevan I think _merge might be a Kernel message actually
22:08 stevan it would get ugly as message sends I think
22:09 autrijus you can decompose it into a few kernmsgs
22:09 * theorbtwo thinks this project is starting to have lots and lots of different languages and turtles-all-the-way-down syndrome.
22:09 autrijus one handling the emptyseq
22:09 autrijus and one or two in each loop
22:09 theorbtwo ...but I also think that I might think this because I don't understand what's going on.
22:10 autrijus theorbtwo: that's mostly because insufficient documentation :)
22:10 autrijus (and visio diagrams)
22:10 autrijus I'm looking to fix that as well.
22:10 theorbtwo I saw that there was lots of progress on a PA02 on your journal, but have not yet actually read it.
22:10 autrijus theorbtwo: what stevan is doing here is to write the metamodel bootstrapping sequence in a language agnostic way
22:10 theorbtwo Yes.
22:11 stevan s/stevan is doing/stevan is trying to do/
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22:11 theorbtwo That seems like overkill; don't we only have one language to bootstrap?
22:11 autrijus ok, stevan is trying to attempt to do
22:11 * stevan loves to throw out code,.. so you never know ;)
22:11 autrijus theorbtwo: er, in a runtime-language-agnostic way
22:11 autrijus of course they all boot the same p6 model
22:12 theorbtwo I'd really be much happier, all in all, to be able to run perl6 on one backend then almost be able to run it on 7.
22:12 stevan theorbtwo: which one?
22:12 autrijus which one, is the problem
22:12 autrijus I'd like p5
22:12 autrijus if I can only have one
22:12 stevan me too
22:12 stevan easier to transition
22:13 theorbtwo I suspect rolling our own might be the most reasonable.
22:13 autrijus but then p5 is not really rigorous, and unless we do some abstractions like this, the lessons learned there can't be portable to hs, pir, js, or whatnot.
22:13 theorbtwo No impedence mismatch.
22:13 * autrijus mumbles something about parrot and p5 is also supposed to be "our own"
22:13 eric256 p1-5 didn't have these issues. or did they? or are we planning for the next 100 years?
22:14 autrijus eric256: p4 to p5 went thru the same pain
22:14 theorbtwo p1-5 was our own, I think.
22:14 autrijus eric256: also, because in p5 there is only a runtime, not a language
22:14 * stevan invokes the -Ofun switch :)
22:14 autrijus eric256: so when the runtime becomes hard to change, the language suffers
22:14 autrijus (vice versa)
22:14 theorbtwo The problem is that the interpreter kept getting more and more hairy.
22:14 autrijus stevan: you collect 1000 zorkmids :)
22:15 theorbtwo (And I'm saying the same thing as autrijus, but from a different point of view.)
22:15 theorbtwo Is the subset of perl6 that we can run now different then when we introduced the idea of multiple backends?
22:15 stevan theorbtwo: interpreters are hairy beasts,.. this idea (language-agnostic bootstrap) should actually help (I hope)
22:15 theorbtwo So do I.
22:15 eric256 okay...so this is the way to keep perl6 from running into a wall ilke perl5 where changing the language becomes difficult of even impossible.
22:16 autrijus theorbtwo: more things has been supported, some only found on js
22:16 autrijus eric256: yes, basically
22:16 stevan eric256: p6 will never stop changing while @Larry is still around :P
22:16 * eric256 scratchs his head agian and begins to anxiously continue to hurry up and wait for real OO ;)
22:16 theorbtwo But I'm worried that it'll take 6 months to write this generator, vs 6 days to write the code that it would generate.
22:17 autrijus the PIL and MM and other things we invent are partially defensive measures against an ever changing spec.
22:17 autrijus extensibility, modularity, and other good things may result from it, but fun (and survival) are the initial motivations -- at least for me :D
22:18 eric256 theorbtwo++...it does feel like you could just implement something in pugs and perfect it there. instead of all this back and forth..but i understand thats how it looks from my seat, when reality might be entirly different. ;)
22:18 stevan theorbtwo: the generators should be fairly easy actually, and they guard against runtime specific bugs  
22:18 theorbtwo I saw a great quote in somebody's /topic the other day -- why spend 5 days of your life writing something that you can spend five years of your life writing a thing to automate writing it.
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22:18 r0nny autrijus: ping?
22:18 eric256 lol /me notices that r0nny wasn't paying much attention. lol
22:18 theorbtwo Or something like that, but more elegant, because I am quoting from memory.
22:19 autrijus theorbtwo: as do I... but then, I have brainwashed myself enough that I do believe that p6-running-on-p5 will be the ticket into "hack hack hack" phase
22:19 autrijus r0nny: sure
22:19 r0nny eric256: afaik i was afk eating
22:19 autrijus theorbtwo: I may be wrong, but that's the assumption I'm operating under :)
22:20 r0nny is there a new svn version where it wont tell a syntax error, on the call to the pugs internal pir evaluator ?
22:20 stevan theorbtwo: read about PyPy,.. it is a very interesting approach
22:20 autrijus (happily, my assumptions are lexical and only affects my block)
22:20 autrijus r0nny:  eval('print 1', :lang<pir>);
22:20 autrijus like this?
22:20 theorbtwo Donno.  One thing that worries me is that if you can mix p5 and p6 too easily, there's no motivitation to port your code to p6.  Instead you write in a mix of p5 and p6, and when that's too slow, compile your p6 down to p5 and start hacking on the generated p5.
22:21 autrijus r0nny: it worksforme
22:21 stevan theorbtwo: it wont be compiled down to pure p5,.. it will still require the runtime
22:21 r0nny autrijus: it fails on stuff like eval slurp "file.yaml";:lang<yaml> - tells the error is the call to the pir evaluator
22:21 autrijus theorbtwo: I guess the motivation would be that p6 is easier to write than p5.
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22:21 autrijus r0nny: eval(slurp("file.yaml"), :lang<yaml>);
22:21 theorbtwo But if p5 is the primary backend of p6, then p6 will never be faster then p5.
22:22 autrijus r0nny: I think your semicolon are in the wrong place
22:22 r0nny oh
22:22 r0nny i just typed wong here in irc
22:22 r0nny well - it fails, if i use evalfile
22:22 * stevan has to run,.. I will backlog on this later, adios &
22:22 theorbtwo r0nny: You should copy-and-paste more.
22:23 autrijus theorbtwo: however, I don't see hs and js faster than p5 really
22:23 theorbtwo stevan: Right -- it won't be compiled down to pure p5, it'll be compiled down to p5-with-baggage-on-top.
22:24 autrijus theorbtwo: that is not entirely true -- sky__ pointed out that we can compile to OPs and introduce new OPs
22:24 r0nny ok - on eval slurp "config.yaml" , :lang<yaml>;
22:24 * stevan mumbles something about "we should all just use Java" and runs out the door
22:24 autrijus first as loadable XS, but maybe even into p5blead, no less, just to support pugs
22:24 r0nny it tells syntax error: line 2, column 2
22:24 r0nny    at Prelude.pm line 66, column 30-64
22:24 autrijus theorbtwo: and that would be as fast as we'd like.
22:25 autrijus r0nny: are you using svn head?
22:25 r0nny and line 66 col 30-64 is the call to the damn pir evaluator
22:25 theorbtwo Wasn't part of the point to get rid of the icky perl 5 runtime?
22:25 r0nny yeah
22:25 r0nny Version: 6.2.10 (r7815)
22:26 autrijus theorbtwo: er yes, and people are working on that as well :)
22:27 autrijus it's just takes some time to unscrew a previously screwed project... but I think we're doing well :)
22:27 theorbtwo Hm.
22:27 eric256 perlbot nopaste
22:27 perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
22:27 eric256 r0nny can you paste your yaml file there
22:27 autrijus theorbtwo: and also, if parrot dissipates and YARV becomes real nice, we don't even have to roll our own.
22:27 theorbtwo YARV?
22:27 autrijus theorbtwo: Ruby2 VM
22:27 theorbtwo Ah.
22:27 autrijus or rather, Ruby 1.8's new VM as well
22:27 autrijus already runs miniruby
22:28 theorbtwo It seems unlikely that parrot will unscrew; trying to be everything to everybody is /hard/.
22:28 autrijus theorbtwo: try http://www.atdot.net/yc/compile
22:28 r0nny http://r0nnyger.mine.nu/~r0nny/config.yaml
22:29 r0nny its the output of using perl5 data and a yaml output
22:30 theorbtwo Hm.  I'm off, I think.
22:30 autrijus theorbtwo: yeah, but the gist is that I'm not really a VM tuning person, so I wouldn't want to write and maintain a fast, efficient, general-purpose runtime that's competitive to other shared runtime out there
22:30 r0nny eric256: any idea from the yaml file ?
22:30 autrijus theorbtwo: but I want to use p6, so my strategy is to target it to whatever VM that's best out there. :)
22:30 autrijus other people's motivations may, of course, differ
22:31 eric256 yes. the bult in YAML processor is very limited, as i stated before
22:31 autrijus r0nny: that worksforme
22:31 autrijus ./pugs -e 'say eval(slurp("config.yaml"), :lang<yaml>)'
22:31 autrijus or even
22:31 autrijus ./pugs -e 'say eval(slurp("config.yaml"), :lang<yaml>).perl'
22:31 autrijus r7598
22:32 autrijus er I mean r7816
22:32 eric256 but that file processes fine
22:32 r0nny autrijus: same errkr
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22:32 autrijus r0nny: very strange -- did you change Prelude.pm somehow?
22:32 r0nny no
22:32 eric256 same here clear back on r7711
22:33 autrijus r0nny: your platform?
22:33 autrijus r0nny: I wonder if a clean rebuild would help
22:33 r0nny gentoo linux - x86
22:33 r0nny clean ?
22:33 autrijus make clean
22:33 autrijus perl Makefile.PL ; make unoptimised
22:33 autrijus if that fails, I'm willing to take a shell account and go look, but that's after I wake up
22:33 eric256 you might revert your SVN checkout too
22:34 autrijus right, or use "svn diff" to check
22:36 r0nny might it be a problem to have a binary version of ghc ?
22:36 autrijus no, that shouldn't matter at all.
22:37 r0nny i wish i knew, why it dies all the time
22:37 buu Are the l33t new perl rules implemented in pugs?
22:38 autrijus buu: yes
22:38 buu Hurrah!
22:38 buu Woah. They look exactly like BNF
22:38 autrijus r0nny: so if you run this
22:38 autrijus ./pugs -e 'say eval(slurp("config.yaml"), :lang<yaml>).perl'
22:38 autrijus in the command line
22:38 autrijus it dies with the same error, right?
22:38 r0nny yeah
22:39 autrijus what if you change "yaml" to "perl6" there?
22:39 r0nny undef as ret val
22:39 r0nny no error
22:40 autrijus what if this?
22:40 autrijus ./pugs -e 'say Pugs::Internals::eval_yaml(​slurp("config.yaml")).perl'
22:40 r0nny syntax error: line 2, column 2
22:40 r0nny    at -e line 1, column 5-58
22:40 r0nny it doesnt like pugs::internals
22:40 r0nny hmm
22:41 autrijus that's very wrong
22:41 autrijus mm
22:42 r0nny darn - pugs::parser kales a mess while being compiled
22:42 r0nny eh makes
22:42 autrijus kales?
22:42 autrijus mm? meaning it takes a lot of ram?
22:43 r0nny it makes the x11 framerate about 1 fps
22:43 autrijus oh wow. maybe renice it
22:43 autrijus your kernel isn't very preempt, I see :)
22:43 r0nny wich basically means it takes a hell of shitload of work for the vm
22:43 r0nny allready niced down to 19
22:43 autrijus I'm sorry. :/ did you really "make unoptimised"?
22:44 autrijus (straight "make" for GHC 6.4.0 will leak)
22:44 r0nny only compiling monotone had whorse results on my pc
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22:48 r0nny i think im going to make it need ghc 4.1-r1
22:48 r0nny the -A200 opt "should" have worked
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22:55 dduncan I think I'll defer the DBI thing for a few days or weeks
22:55 dduncan fyi, in order to test this with MySQL etc, we need an IO::Socket replacement that is functional
22:56 liz6 yes, that would seem necessary...  ;-)
22:56 dduncan does Haskell have the libraries etc to hook up to that implement sockets?
22:57 dduncan hmmm ... I see there's a Net::IRC module ... but does it work?
22:57 Khisanth aren't the svnbot6 and evalbot_7818 both written in Perl 6?
22:58 r0nny omfgdh
22:58 Khisanth surely that requires working sockets ...
22:58 dduncan are they?
22:58 dduncan looking ...
22:58 r0nny watching the configure process of ghc makes me think a insane person did this freaking autofoo setup
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23:00 eric256 Khisanth the code for them is in the repository under exampes/net
23:00 eric256 but yes i beleive they both are, well eval bot has a perl5 helper script
23:02 autrijus dduncan: we have sockets
23:02 autrijus dduncan: examples/network/
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23:03 * liz6 is calling it a day
23:03 liz6 a day
23:03 liz6 has left
23:14 dduncan okay, I see the examples ... this will take me awhile to do, though, and I'll probably continue my own modules concurrently
23:21 autrijus that's fine, no rush :)
23:21 rafl autrijus: FYI, our Module::ScanDeps, PAR::Dist and PAR modules will be in Debian soon.
23:22 autrijus cool
23:23 r0nny rafl: can the depenca scanner be used for other stuff, then modules ?
23:24 r0nny eh depency
23:24 rafl I'm also considering to extend dh_perl (a script that finds dependencies for perl packages during the bild) and dh-make-perl (a script that makes debian packages from perl module from scratch) using Module::ScanDep?
23:24 rafl r0nny: what stuff for example?
23:24 autrijus r0nny: yes
23:24 autrijus rafl: that'd be nice.
23:25 autrijus (though I need to sleep in a couple mins)
23:25 r0nny source files > object files > library file(s)
23:26 r0nny im still on the build-system thing
23:26 r0nny maybe it can be integrated into sixpan for creating binary modules in a nice way
23:27 rafl I doubt that. Different distributions will have other names for different libraries.
23:27 rafl Or maybe none at all (win32).
23:27 rafl sixpan would need to provide "The Source Of The World" to make that work.
23:28 r0nny not really
23:28 * autrijus waves &
23:28 r0nny cu autrijus
23:29 r0nny rafl: basically all i need to change betwen platforms is binary format and prefixes/suffixes
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23:29 r0nny should be configured in a yaml file
23:30 lisppaste3 has quit IRC ("Want lisppaste3 in your channel? Email chandler AT unmutual.info.")
23:30 r0nny btw - hadnt parrot a arch-independ object format ?
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23:30 rafl How can I specify and check that I need libgmp3 in at lease version 4.1.4?
23:31 r0nny rafl: such stuff will be part of the configuration framework, not the building/depency part
23:31 r0nny but basically everything should be made by some yaml config files
23:32 khisanth_ has joined #perl6
23:32 r0nny it can easyly be the first file od a tarbz2
23:32 rafl I really doubt that this can be portable.
23:32 r0nny why ?
23:32 r0nny where do u see problems
23:33 r0nny i really need to know such stuff - maybe i forgot simple stuff wich makes some things bad
23:33 rafl Different platforms have different packaging systems. Some don't have such a thing at all.
23:33 rafl If a dependency is available with the packaging system it should install it using this system
23:34 r0nny could do that with extensions
23:34 rafl If not it needs to be downloaded and built (including all deps) and installed where also other software can use it.
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23:35 rafl How to write an extension that can deal with every package management system that exists out there? Impossible, imho.
23:35 rafl It's almost impossible to really find the name of a perl package in Debian from the module name on cpan.
23:36 r0nny hmm
23:36 r0nny then dont support till they got sane names
23:36 r0nny maybe help them keep perl6 module names clean from the beginning
23:37 rafl Of course. Only support gentoo as it's the only sane alternative to <insert whatever here>
23:37 r0nny hmm
23:37 r0nny well under gentoo Foo::Bar is just mapped to dev-perl/Foo-Bar
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23:38 rafl Perl is cool because it runs on almost everything and is highly portable.
23:38 r0nny well - there is allways the way of creating own deb files, and installing them with apt
23:38 r0nny eh dpkg
23:38 rafl Not supporting something because we want to have some magic for installing the whole world from cpan isn't good.
23:39 r0nny well - just make the debian folks keep the perl6 module names clean
23:39 rafl The goal of sixpan is to provide something to install perl packages. If there are other libs require it can tell you that, but it can't install it in the normal case.
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23:39 rafl I'm going to, of course. But there's more out there than debian and gentoo.
23:40 r0nny i got an dea for this
23:40 r0nny well - iach package with external depencyes could have a yaml file maps os/dist to package names need to be installed
23:41 r0nny also the package-maintainers of the distro could do some of this work
23:42 r0nny guess debian and gentoo wil have it the fastest, *bsd and other unix-aliked folowing
23:42 rafl I, as a potential author of perl modules, have exactly one platform I write my stuff one. Others may have two or ten or whatever. No one will have every platform you can think of. So it won't work for every platform.
23:42 r0nny but win32 might be problematic
23:42 rafl We can't rely on others. It simply needs to work as it is.
23:43 r0nny then it needs to relly on sane pkg managers
23:43 r0nny and i dont know any conplete sane out there
23:44 rafl OK. You convince developers of every operating system flavour out there to obey our rules first. Then we can implement your ideas.
23:44 r0nny well - there should be a concept allows package-maintainers to add the needed informations easy, so the package-developers dont have to worry about all platforms
23:45 r0nny make it nice and sane, so they start using it :)
23:45 r0nny at leas i hope so :)
23:45 rafl For sure..
23:46 r0nny well - i know it will be sane under gentoo (u know the :: to - mapping)
23:46 r0nny debian folks coudl do, too
23:46 rafl Stop thinking only about Gentoo and Debian.
23:46 r0nny just make it perl6-mod-Foo-Bar or something
23:46 r0nny bsd might be more problematic
23:46 r0nny since i dont know hopw ports work
23:47 r0nny but i know, who to ask
23:47 r0nny and win32 need something else
23:47 r0nny basically unix needs some simple stuff, an then could do
23:47 r0nny but win32 might be more complicated
23:48 rafl BSD isn't a real problem either. Other systems won't have a package management at all or they don't package the library a module needs and maybe not even the build-depends and probably the build-depends won't even run there, ...
23:49 r0nny then the modules just should tell them all depencyes at once (i hate autofoo configures show only one a time - makes it bad)
23:50 rafl Fine. Unfortunately that doesn't solve anything.
23:50 r0nny no package manager means user needs to install
23:50 r0nny think of LFS users and such
23:50 r0nny they have no pkg-manager at all
23:50 r0nny so they need to know what they need
23:52 r0nny ping?
23:52 rafl Yes. That the least common denominator what is useful to implement. Tell the user what non-cpan dependencies are needed and maybe give him some hints about them
23:52 r0nny yeah
23:54 gugod has joined #perl6
23:54 r0nny btw wvk mirror ?
23:54 r0nny eh svk
23:55 rafl Nothing yet. Too busy with Debian stuff to take a look at perforce and how to mirror it in a sane way.
23:55 r0nny hmm
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23:56 r0nny well - i stay away from debian - it broke multiple times on me - in a non-recoverable way
23:57 rafl Yes. That happens often and it's always Debians fault.
23:57 eric256 has left
23:57 r0nny who knows
23:57 r0nny i know ppl never had any problems with it
23:57 rafl I usually reinstall it at least once a week. But that doesn't hurt because I don't need to compile everything from scratch. *scnr*
23:58 r0nny well - usually my system only breaks on hw failure
23:59 r0nny afaik only free-bsd's stuff s more powerfull on this
23:59 r0nny but free-bsd cant do xfs, and im a xfs fanbay ;P
23:59 r0nny eh fanboy

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