Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-11-03

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:00 rafl I installed the last Debian system for my personal use 3 years ago. It saw 4 systems since then, afaik. It also survived some hardware crashes.
00:00 sapper has quit IRC ("Leaving")
00:01 r0nny well - hw fail = hd fail
00:01 r0nny other broken stuff is no problem for linux in geral
00:01 r0nny well - at least cpu ram and hd interface should work, too ;P
00:02 rafl hard disk failures as well. There are redundant disks and backups, of course.
00:02 r0nny yeah
00:02 r0nny but sonmeone needs to pay all this
00:02 Jooon I know kane is thinking/working on 6pan and have thought lots about how to support different package managers in a sane way. are there other efforts?
00:02 rafl Hardware is cheap.
00:02 r0nny i usually just backup important data
00:03 Jooon does freepan have anything like that at all?
00:03 rafl Jooon: No and no, afaik.
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00:08 undrdawg Yaakov is gay and eats poop
00:08 undrdawg jfyi
00:10 Juerd undrdawg: Yaakov is not here.
00:10 r0nny hmm
00:11 r0nny again such kind of person ...
00:12 undrdawg yzyz
00:12 undrdawg asshole 4 lyfe
00:13 rafl As a friend of mine keeps to say in such situations: "Dei Mudder Sei G'sicht!"
00:14 Jooon "yo mama in your face!"? :)
00:15 r0nny rafl: where are u from ?
00:16 rafl Jooon: I don't think that's a good translation. You probably need to know the movie with the same name to get the joke.
00:16 rafl r0nny: Chemnitz, Germany.
00:19 r0nny cool
00:19 r0nny im from germany, too
00:21 r0nny omg
00:21 r0nny ghc build made me see gnu-as on 99% cpu for the first time
00:22 r0nny well - good night
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00:34 dduncan quick question ...
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00:35 dduncan inside a class, are non-method routines that should be callable by users of the class be 'sub' or 'submethod'?
00:35 dduncan I say non-method because they can be invoked either on the class name or on an object of the class, but they don't apply to any object
00:35 dduncan some utilities would be this kind, as would new()
00:36 dduncan eg, is new() a sub or a submethod or something else?
00:36 dduncan or I'll try looking it up ...
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01:33 theorbtwo ./pugs -CPerl5 ./src/perl6/Prelude.pm dies.
01:33 theorbtwo Is there some better way to get the PIL for the Prelude?
01:35 mugwump bah, me-- # not reading higher levels of thread before posting on leaf
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03:25 svnbot6 r7819 | stevan++ | Perl6::ObjectSpace -
03:25 svnbot6 r7819 | stevan++ | * added block type, which is a parameterless version of closure
03:25 svnbot6 r7819 | stevan++ |   (although you can still access it's local env if needed)
03:25 svnbot6 r7819 | stevan++ | * added &bit::and and &bit::or both which take a block and return
03:25 svnbot6 r7819 | stevan++ |   the appropriate boolean value, this can be used to implement
03:25 svnbot6 r7819 | stevan++ |   conditionals instead of using the native control strucutres
03:25 svnbot6 r7819 | stevan++ |     - added tests for these
03:25 svnbot6 r7819 | stevan++ | * added &list::each and &list::apply which can each take either
03:25 svnbot6 r7819 | stevan++ |   a closure or a block, and apply it to each element of the list
03:26 svnbot6 r7819 | stevan++ |   (&each is rw access to list elements, while &apply is ro)
03:26 svnbot6 r7819 | stevan++ |      - added tests for these
03:26 svnbot6 r7819 | stevan++ | * some refactoring in Bootstrap.pm as well, nothing major
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07:05 r0nny yo
07:06 azuroth hey
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09:40 r0nny anyone there ?
09:40 r0nny pugs told Could not find module `Distribution.Simple':
09:40 r0nny while compile setup
09:43 rafl Gentoo seems to seperate moduel like Distribution.Simple and Cabal from the ghc distribution. There's an own package for it.
09:46 r0nny darn - something is broken :/
09:46 r0nny dome commands cant get the actual wd :/
09:46 r0nny damn this ghc
09:46 r0nny everything just broke after i installed it
09:49 rafl Yes, ghc seems to be the culprit.
09:50 r0nny culprit?
09:50 rafl Indeed.
09:51 r0nny whats the german word for this ?
09:51 r0nny oh
09:51 rafl Schuldige, der. Or maybe Uebeltaeter, der.
09:52 r0nny darn
09:53 r0nny it jsut boke the env of the parrent processes while installing
09:53 r0nny maybe it will work now
09:53 r0nny yay - works
09:53 * r0nny beats the hell out of ghc's build system
09:54 r0nny it is really stupid made
09:54 rafl The env of a parrent process? I doubt that's possible (not sure though)
09:55 r0nny who knows
09:55 r0nny linux is a mess
09:55 r0nny a real mess ;P
09:57 rafl I don't think so.
09:57 rafl It's also not specific to linux. It's POSIX that defines such shings.
09:57 rafl s/shings/things/
09:58 r0nny in the linux kernel there are soo many stupid things
09:59 r0nny well - its stable and good enough, to be considered in production envs instead of win32
09:59 rafl Go ahead, fix them. It's free software.
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10:00 r0nny rafl: some of themarent easy to fix without breaking binary combatibility to older apps
10:01 r0nny for example the missuses of the preprocessor in the syscall tables for archs with multiple syscall calling modes
10:01 rafl I doubt it's a bug then. Programs should only rely on standards like POSIX.
10:01 r0nny sell - source-combatibility wont break
10:01 r0nny well ;P
10:02 rafl The Linux kernel breaks source compatibility often enough.
10:02 r0nny hence the linux mess ;P
10:06 r0nny yay - pugs compiles good now :)
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10:08 r0nny omg - pugs:run takes way too long ;P
10:09 rafl Try compiling with --omg-optimized
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10:10 r0nny_ re
10:11 r0nny_ rafl: om actully doing - how else should it take sooo long ?
10:11 r0nny_ hmm
10:11 r0nny_ or is there really a --omg-optimized flag ;P
10:12 r0nny_ damn - still the error in prelude.pm
10:12 r0nny_ again "Could not find module `Pugs.Internals':
10:12 rafl Really? I must have muddled something up.
10:13 r0nny_ darn
10:13 r0nny_ where to get Pugs::Internals
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10:17 rafl I doubt you're doing this right.
10:17 r0nny_ i dont know, what is wrong
10:17 rafl Pugs.Internals is a haskell module inside the src tree.
10:17 r0nny_ pugscc tells it cant find it
10:18 r0nny_ so i think thats the problem
10:19 rafl Registered the pugs haskell interface with your ghc?
10:22 r0nny_ i think thats missing
10:26 r0nny_ but what else might be broken - the pugs binary seems to be incappable of using it, too
10:26 rafl It's statically compiled into the pugs binary.
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10:27 r0nny_ hmm
10:27 r0nny_ then it shouldnt fail on calls to it from prelude
10:31 r0nny_ ARGH
10:31 r0nny_ i think i found the problem
10:34 r0nny_ the calls in prelude to the internal stuff seem to call to the wrong anmespace
10:35 * rafl doesn't think so, again.
10:36 r0nny_ well - it might just be my stuff is damn broken
10:44 r0nny_ but i stil dont understand why exactly this happens
10:45 rafl If you would nopaste some errors people might help.
10:45 r0nny_ it allways the same error
10:46 r0nny_ it just doesnt like the call to the pugsinternal eval stuff like yaml, pir, ... - but the perl6 ecal actually works :/
10:46 wolverian autrijus, re: Conc naming. just Concurrent? long names aren't always that bad, and one can alias things anyway.
10:47 rafl r0nny_: Paste something.
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10:53 r0nny_ ok - prepared http://rafb.net/paste/results/OgLcGU99.html
10:53 r0nny_ im using the actual svn version
10:54 rafl Try a make realclean and recompile again.
10:56 r0nny_ portage does a complete cleanup on rebuild
10:57 rafl If the maintainer did it right.
10:57 r0nny_ it allways deletes the working dir, creates a new working dir, and copyes the svn sync dir of pugs there
10:58 rafl I can only speak of the Debian package which is totally perfect, of course. ;-)
10:58 azuroth rafl: oh yeah... I never did end up testing that for you ^_^;
10:59 rafl azuroth: I can't even remember what there was to be tested. So I think the problem solved itself. :-)
10:59 r0nny_ btw - rafl does my example work on your machine ?
11:01 rafl It doesn't croak, yes.
11:01 r0nny_ hmm
11:02 r0nny_ time to submitt a bug report to gentoo
11:04 r0nny_ hmm - im disabling the perl5 an dparrot integration
11:04 rafl Yeah, gentoo users usually write funny bug reports: http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=74072
11:06 r0nny_ omg
11:06 azuroth I feel sorry for anyone without apt...
11:06 r0nny_ idiots
11:07 r0nny_ apt broke my system too much and too often
11:07 rafl It's always apt, yes. Isn't it, azuroth? :-)
11:08 r0nny_ portage used sane never breaks the system in a unrepairable way
11:09 rafl As I said yesterday: I'm using a combination of unstable and experimental for three years now without reinstalling. This installation also saw 4 or more systems it ran on.
11:10 azuroth I accidently broke my ubuntu system with apt. well, half-accidently
11:11 azuroth argh accidentally
11:11 rafl I can't think of a situation where an error on a Debian system which was produced by apt/dpkg can't be recovered.
11:11 r0nny_ i had them on many machines
11:12 rafl Even stuff like 'dpkg -P apt dpkg tar' can be recovered.
11:12 r0nny_ where different libs where blocking themself
11:12 azuroth hmm. yeah, I probably would've been able to fix it by changing my sources back to real ones
11:12 rafl Oh well... how does a library that is blocked break a system?
11:12 azuroth but I wanted to try real debian anyway
11:12 r0nny_ libc ?
11:12 r0nny_ after tat apt stoped working
11:13 r0nny_ it just complained about boken stuff to receover, and couldnt recover
11:13 rafl r0nny_: If it's blocked it simply doesn't get upgraded. Oh well.. wait two days until it works again and upgrade then.
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11:13 rafl apt stoped working with a new libc version? I doubt that because libc uses versioned symbols. However. You can still install packages and upgrade your apt to something working without using apt.
11:14 r0nny_ apt stopped working vasue id allways tols stuff about broken packages
11:14 r0nny_ eh told
11:15 rafl That's always recoverable, as I said. Packages also don't break on their own. However, this is getting way too much off topic again for me.
11:15 r0nny_ yeah
11:16 r0nny_ well - i never want debian on my private systems again
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11:33 xinming r0nny_: well, then which distribution will you follow? ;-)
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11:35 rafl xinming: Make a guess.. :-)
11:36 xinming Debian is perfect most time. though, It's abit outdated for testing.
11:38 r0nny_ hmm
11:38 r0nny_ im going to uni now
11:38 webmind xinming, tried experimental?
11:38 r0nny_ after that im going to find the wrong thing the gentoo ppl did to the pugs ebuild
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12:18 xinming webmind: yes, I've used sid for over months, But tired of doing dist-upgrade everyday. >_<
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12:19 theorbtwo Hm, now that there are actually people here...
12:19 theorbtwo ./pugs -CPerl5 ./src/perl6/Prelude.pm dies.
12:20 theorbtwo Is there a better way to get the PIL of the Prelude?
12:20 theorbtwo Also, what does
12:20 theorbtwo When an alarm object is garbage collected, the alarm is stopped automatically.
12:20 theorbtwo Under void context, the implicit alarm object can only be stopped by querying
12:20 theorbtwo C<.alarms> on the current process.
12:20 theorbtwo (S17 draft) mean.  Does it mean to have an unless in there?
12:21 webmind xinming, hmk
12:21 theorbtwo If the alarm method is called in void context, surely that means it's return is garbage-collected immediately...
12:24 liz6 theorbtwo: the idea was that in void context, nothing is returned and therefore nothing would be gc'd
12:24 liz6 and therefore the alarm would not be stopped
12:26 liz6 doesn't that make sense?
12:27 liz6 or is that too magical?
12:27 theorbtwo It makes some sense, but seems too easy for a niave user to do by accident.
12:27 theorbtwo My worry is mostly just with the wording, though, which seems contridictory.
12:28 liz6 the naive user probably doesn't know about anything but alarm() in void context?
12:28 theorbtwo Perhaps just have the effect by a forever adverb?
12:28 theorbtwo The naive user, I thought, would think it'd do the same thing it does in p5.
12:29 theorbtwo It occours to me that the void-context behavor described /is/ closer to p5, though.
12:29 liz6 indeed, that was the idea...
12:29 theorbtwo Yeah, thinking about it again, just a silly wording complaint that I probably should have not vocalized.
12:30 theorbtwo The first question is the one I really want to know the answer to, though.
12:31 liz6 the PIL of the Prelude?
12:31 liz6 no idea, I'm a pugs n00by
12:32 theorbtwo I used to be a non-n00by, but was away for several months, and regressed into n00byhood.
12:34 autrijus theorbtwo: ./pugs -CPIL
12:34 autrijus that gives the pil in haskell format
12:34 autrijus which may or may not be more readable than -CPerl5 and -CJS
12:35 theorbtwo Right, but ./pugs -CPerl5 ./src/perl6/Prelude.pm dies.
12:35 theorbtwo *** Compile error -- invalid Pugs.PIL1.PIL_Expr:
12:35 theorbtwo    Stmts (App (Var "&postfix:++") Nothing [Var "$?FIRST_RUN"]) (Syn "=" [Var "$?FIRST_RESULT",App (Val (VCode (MkCode {isMulti = False, subName = "", subType = SubBlock, subEnv = Nothing, subAssoc = "pre", subParams = [], subBindings = [], subSlurpLimit = [], subReturns = (mkType "Any"), subLValue = False, subBody = Noop, subCont = Nothing}))) Nothing []])
12:36 theorbtwo (Same with -CPIL.)
12:36 theorbtwo ./pugs -CPerl5 -e 'say "Hello, world"' works just fine.
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13:38 wolverian damn the prefix = is ugly
13:41 Limbic_Region salutations all
13:42 theorbtwo Greetings, Joshua.
13:44 xinming wolverian: but it is meaningful
13:44 wolverian xinming, not enough, I think.
13:45 xinming wolverian: think it would get the line from file one by one. :-)
13:45 theorbtwo It is meaningful, but still too ugly.
13:45 wolverian theorbtwo++
13:45 wolverian maybe we could use read()? :)
13:45 theorbtwo I think the .readline and .readlines methods aren't going away.
13:45 xinming wolverian: well, @Larry like punctuation.
13:46 xinming It's hope, Not think. :-P
13:46 xinming hmm, I agree with you, But I'd prefer meaningful rather than beautiful.
13:47 xinming I should use noun here.
13:47 theorbtwo I tend to think that my @lines = =$fh; is ugly.
13:47 * xinming is scraching his head about his ugly English...
13:48 theorbtwo xinming: It reads OK as "meaningful rather then beautiful" or as "meaning rather then beauty".
13:48 xinming s/about/for/
13:48 Limbic_Region theorbtwo - out of curiosity, what are you doing these days to keep yourself busy?
13:49 theorbtwo Hacking on DVB stuff lately.
13:49 xinming theorbtwo: yes, I agree, But @lines = $fh, for $fh will be evaluate in list context, So, It might read all lines into @lines.
13:49 xinming hmm, maybe I am wrong. :-(
13:49 theorbtwo No, that'd assign $fh to @lines, not read anything, because that's an infix = and not a prefix =.
13:50 xinming hmm, how about this? *$fh?
13:51 theorbtwo Donno what that would do.
13:51 xinming neither do I. :-P
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15:00 xinming hmm, anyone here knows how to get the content using post from CGI?
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15:18 Khisanth xinming: read from STDIN? :)
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15:20 xinming Khisanth: yeah, I finally find it myself. thanks anyway, But found It's a problem to decode %num into chinese character. :-(
15:21 Khisanth hmm well you would have to know the encoding?
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15:22 theorbtwo Khisanth: It'd probably be URI-encoded UTF-8.
15:23 xinming yes, I tried to know how cgi works underneath.
15:23 xinming hmm, not a problem, will try to google.
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15:31 raptorXXX In ---->   sub foo (:blah ...)
15:31 raptorXXX what :blah means
15:32 raptorXXX is it a "note" or what?
15:32 eric256 :blah(10) is the same as (blah => 10)
15:32 eric256 hold on. in the definition of a sub? or the call to it?
15:33 raptorXXX call to it
15:33 raptorXXX oops, in both
15:33 eric256 i've never seen it in the defintion. but thats what it means in the call
15:34 raptorXXX yeah , thanx
15:34 xinming raptorXXX: if no (10) is specified, It's a key pair without value
15:35 xinming A bit like ( blah => undef ) maybe.
15:35 raptorXXX i see.. cant rememeber where i saw it..so that i can post a link
15:37 xinming hmm, Not sure if this is obselete as I hadn't read Synopsis over 2 month. Sorry,
15:37 raptorXXX one stupid question :)
15:38 raptorXXX i was always wondering why all ppl use for examples : foo & bar
15:38 raptorXXX does they have some real meaning
15:38 raptorXXX or it is just coincidence
15:39 eric256 foo and bar are just standard example variables...its like a big flag  * THIS ISN'T REALY*
15:40 fanf2 rfc 3092
15:41 liz6 see http://search.cpan.org/~book/Acme-MetaSyntactic/ if you don't like to use foo and bar yourself
15:42 raptorXXX i see :)
15:43 raptorXXX FUBAR (`Fucked Up Beyond All       Repair'), later modified to foobar.
15:43 raptorXXX he he
15:43 liz6 but please refrain from using http://search.cpan.org/~jfenal/​Acme-MetaSyntactic-RefactorCode  ;-)
15:46 Limbic_Region liz6 - did you get a chance to read the meeting minutes from latest Perl6 Meeting?
15:46 Limbic_Region http://use.perl.org/~luqui/journal/27425
15:47 liz6 L~R: nope, will do now
15:51 liz6 anything in particular that should have triggered my attention?
15:51 wolverian eric256, : in sig means named variable, changed from +
15:51 liz6 apart from the S17 draft
15:51 liz6 ?
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15:56 eric256 wolverian ahhh. recent change?
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15:57 wolverian eric256, fairly
16:00 fanf2 liz6: have you seen http://research.microsoft.co​m/users/simonpj/papers/stm/  ?
16:07 Limbic_Region liz6 - no sorry, just the S17 stuff
16:07 Limbic_Region specifically the potential concern about STM
16:08 * Limbic_Region only glanced over it
16:08 liz6 just printed the STM stuff...  will read later today...
16:20 Juerd I think I never did a luqui++ for those minutes
16:21 Juerd luqui++
16:21 Juerd Journals should have ++ and -- buttons :)
16:23 eric256 ?eval say 'luqui++" for (1..10);
16:24 evalbot_7819 Error:  unexpected "'" expecting block construct, ":", "\\", "$!", "$/", "$", "'", term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
16:24 eric256 ?eval say 'luqui++' for (1..10);
16:24 evalbot_7819 luqui++ luqui++ luqui++ luqui++ luqui++ luqui++ luqui++ luqui++ luqui++ luqui++ undef
16:24 eric256 karma luqui
16:24 jabbot eric256: luqui has karma of 10
16:24 eric256 ?eval say 'luqui++' for (1..10);
16:24 evalbot_7819 luqui++ luqui++ luqui++ luqui++ luqui++ luqui++ luqui++ luqui++ luqui++ luqui++ undef
16:24 eric256 karma luqui
16:24 jabbot eric256: luqui has karma of 10
16:24 eric256 ahhh... bummer. lol
16:25 xinming karma xinming
16:25 jabbot xinming: xinming  has neutral karma
16:25 xinming karma xinming
16:25 jabbot xinming: xinming  has neutral karma
16:25 liz6 karma liz6
16:25 jabbot liz6: liz6 has neutral karma
16:25 xinming ?? Why I am neutral?
16:25 xinming ?eval "haha".say for 1..10
16:25 evalbot_7819 haha haha haha haha haha haha haha haha haha haha undef
16:25 liz6 (it's not the same as neutered, you know  ;-)
16:26 xinming karma xinming
16:26 jabbot xinming: xinming has neutral karma
16:26 gugod and it's not the same karma
16:26 eric256 xinming++
16:26 eric256 karma xinming
16:26 jabbot eric256: xinming has neutral karma
16:26 eric256 karma bot borked?
16:26 jabbot eric256: bot borked? has neutral karma
16:27 eric256 LOL
16:27 wolverian xinming++
16:27 wolverian karma xinming?
16:27 jabbot wolverian: xinming? has neutral karma
16:27 wolverian sheesh.
16:27 wolverian karma xinming
16:27 jabbot wolverian: xinming has neutral karma
16:27 raptorXXX has left
16:27 wolverian okay. just checking if he had -1 previously
16:27 gugod not that's something for me todo
16:27 gugod s/not/now/
16:28 * xinming loves perl more and more, as it is so natural to xinming...
16:30 saorge has joined #perl6
16:31 Limbic_Region heh - I actually told a prospective employer that he loved Perl the other day as though it were the most natural thing in the world to say
16:31 Limbic_Region s/he/I/
16:33 eric256 heeh
16:33 stevan has quit IRC ("Leaving")
16:37 * Limbic_Region only briefly mentions Perl on his resume which had confounded the prospective employer
16:37 * Limbic_Region had to explain that "systems engineers" made a lot more money and that I programmed for pleasure ;-)
16:39 eric256 what is a systems engineer?
16:40 Limbic_Region um - a general IT weenie
16:40 Limbic_Region or - problem solver
16:40 Limbic_Region http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_engineering
16:41 Limbic_Region http://www.graduatingengineer.com​/careerprofiles/system-eng2.html
16:42 Limbic_Region does that help eric256?
16:42 * Limbic_Region heads off to lunch
16:43 eric256 that makes me programmer/webmaster/accountant/systems engineer....i need paid more ;)
16:54 stevan has joined #perl6
17:14 Eimi has joined #perl6
17:18 Juerd eric256: Why paid more? You're obviously not a specialist :)
17:19 eric256 lol
17:19 eric256 too true
17:26 xinming Juerd: well, I can say, I am a specialist... :-P
17:27 * xinming thinks hunting job is a bit like doing business...
17:27 Juerd You hunt?
17:27 xinming No, I didn't, I still need to learn.
17:28 dbrock has joined #perl6
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17:46 * eric256 puts his accountant hat on...i should get some degrees in this crap so i can charge more ;)
17:58 aufrank has joined #perl6
18:03 nothingmuch has quit IRC ("leaving")
18:03 aufrank anyone up for a roles question?
18:03 aufrank I mean, um, hi!
18:06 kolibrie h
18:07 Amnesiac has joined #perl6
18:08 eric256 hey
18:08 kolibrie how weird, I typed that 'h' after my dialup disconnected, and then it was applied when I reattached my screen
18:08 aufrank heh
18:09 aufrank so can anyone spare some cycles on a question of mine?
18:09 kolibrie ask, then we'll see if we have cycles
18:10 aufrank can a class implicity do a role?
18:10 aufrank if I have
18:10 aufrank role Dog {
18:11 aufrank method bark { ... }
18:11 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
18:11 aufrank }
18:11 aufrank and then have
18:11 aufrank Class Dog {
18:11 aufrank method Bark { ... }
18:11 aufrank }
18:11 aufrank and later say
18:12 aufrank my Dog fido;
18:12 aufrank wait, scratch the fido part
18:12 aufrank darn it
18:12 aufrank I swear I had this thought through
18:12 kolibrie I think role Dog and class Dog have a namespace clash, I don't think they can be named the same
18:12 xinming aufrank: I think you can't make role and class the same name.
18:12 aufrank yeah, that's right
18:13 aufrank what I want to know is something different that I haven't successfully asked yet
18:13 xinming I think you can't -> I don't think you can
18:13 xinming aufrank: go on then.
18:13 aufrank if role requires a cerain method foo
18:13 aufrank and a class provides that method without specifically saying it does the role
18:13 aufrank does it do the role anyway?
18:14 aufrank role Pet { method eat { ... } }
18:14 xinming aufrank: I don't think so, as role is used for code reused, and class is used for instance creation.
18:14 wolverian aufrank, no.
18:14 xinming But you might need `multi sub`
18:14 aufrank class FierceLion { method eat { ... } }
18:14 aufrank does FierceLion do Pet?
18:15 wolverian no.
18:15 xinming aufrank: No,
18:15 aufrank it fulfills the interface requirements of Pet
18:15 stevan aufrank: what you are asking about is pure allomorphism
18:15 wolverian aufrank, it could also fulfill the interface requirements of, say, HugeWorldEatingMonster, and McDonaldsCustomer.
18:15 stevan it is not specced to work that way, however, it is still being discussed, so it may eventually work that way
18:16 wolverian stevan, I hope not. :)
18:16 stevan wolverian: there is some value to having it work that way
18:16 xinming aufrank: But, You can write the example like this
18:16 kolibrie stevan: I'm with wolverian on that one, I think
18:16 stevan although I think it should not be as implicit as aufrank suggests
18:16 aufrank I got confused on the "roles are interfaces with defaults" view of roles
18:16 stevan aufrank: even in Java, things don't work that way
18:16 aufrank and came up with this quesiton of implicitly doing a role just by matching its interface
18:16 stevan you must explicitly add a interface
18:17 vigen has joined #perl6
18:17 aufrank but I didn't know if it was worth a p6l post, so I figured I'd throw it out here first
18:17 xinming class Pet { ... }; class Animal { ... }; multi sub eat ( Pet|Animal ) { ... };
18:17 svnbot6 r7820 | stevan++ | Perl6::ObjectSpace
18:17 svnbot6 r7820 | stevan++ | * translation of Metamorph is now complete, which means
18:17 svnbot6 r7820 | stevan++ |   we can do Class.new()
18:17 svnbot6 r7820 | stevan++ |     - added many tests for this
18:17 svnbot6 r7820 | stevan++ | * added &reverse to list and make &tail return a list
18:17 svnbot6 r7820 | stevan++ | * fixed &remove in hash
18:17 svnbot6 r7820 | stevan++ | * symbols now can be compared for equality (name and type)
18:17 svnbot6 r7820 | stevan++ | * attributes can instantiate their container types
18:17 svnbot6 r7820 | stevan++ | * closures now check for too many arguments
18:17 svnbot6 r7820 | stevan++ |     - added tests for these
18:17 evalbot_7819 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
18:17 stevan aufrank: you could bring it up,.. I know chromatic seems to be leaning in that direction
18:17 evalbot_7820 has joined #perl6
18:18 aufrank I am sort of looking around for something to start writing in p6 that would help me think type-ly
18:18 aufrank and there's a linguistic theory called HPSG
18:18 xinming aufrank: look at the example code in pugs dir. ;-)
18:18 wolverian aufrank, feel free to mail perl6-language with your view on this. :)
18:18 aufrank head-driven phrase structure grammar
18:18 wolverian aufrank, the more people thinking on it, the better.
18:18 aufrank and it's got a pretty well defined type hierarchy
18:19 aufrank (thanks for the encouragement!)
18:19 aufrank so I started trying to think of HPSG in terms of kinds and types and classes and roles
18:19 aufrank and came up with a few places where implicitly doing a role might be helpful
18:20 aufrank so I guess I'll try to write up a p6l post :)
18:20 stevan aufrank: can you explicitly do the role too?
18:21 stevan why is implicitness more helpful?
18:21 aufrank rules get applied to structures based on types
18:21 aufrank and types can change when rules are applied
18:22 stevan kolibrie: wolverian: a can_fufill() method would be fairly simple to write,.. which would tell if a class fufills all a roles methods
18:22 stevan aufrank: you can add roles at runtime
18:22 stevan $fido does Cat;
18:23 stevan it doesn't work now in Pugs,.. but soon,... once the objectspace/metamodel is in
18:23 aufrank in pseudo-code (or pseudo linguistics, or something)
18:23 aufrank headed-phrase -> headed-element (optional-element)
18:24 aufrank so it would make sense to say that there's some method that takes at least one headed-element and turns it into a headed-phrase
18:25 aufrank but lots of different types can be headed elements
18:25 aufrank they just have to have a head attribute defined
18:25 stevan aufrank: I think runtime roles might be what you need
18:25 aufrank so really, I think headed-element is better as a role
18:26 aufrank but the grammar rules can add or change heads on elements, so something might all of a sudden become a headed-element (might all of a sudden do the headed-element role)
18:26 stevan sub make_headed_phrase ($headed_element) { $headed_element does HeadedPhrase }
18:26 aufrank yeah, that's the ticket
18:27 stevan but here does is not a question, but an action
18:27 aufrank right, which is sort of backwards from how I was thinking of it
18:27 aufrank but I can see it this way, too
18:28 stevan aufrank: this would be an interesting test of roles, you should write it up and commit it, it will help in testing the metamodel
18:28 stevan do you have a commiter bit?
18:28 aufrank I got one when I told autrijus when I suggested wake_on and alarm clocks to autrijus for S17 :)
18:29 aufrank s/when I told autrijus//
18:29 aufrank there's an event going on called National Novel Writing Month (NaNoWriMo)
18:30 aufrank I'm decalaring AuCoWriMo for myself (austin's code writing month) ;)
18:30 eric256 NaNo Nanu? ;)
18:30 aufrank so I decided to stop lurking on p6l and come play with you guys
18:31 stevan aufrank: excellent,.. welcome aboard
18:31 aufrank with runtime role assignment I think I no longer have an opinion on implicitly doing roles, though
18:33 * aufrank changes subject
18:33 aufrank did anyone read the arstechnica review of microsoft's monad shell a few weeks back?
18:34 stevan I saw it, but didnt read it
18:34 stevan interesting?
18:34 aufrank I want one for p6 ;)
18:34 * eric256 wonders what the hell a monad shell is..
18:35 stevan eric256: it is what a monad wears in it's back to protect itself ,.. duh
18:35 vigen has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.7/20050915]")
18:35 aufrank http://arstechnica.com/guides/other/msh.ars
18:36 aufrank eric256: it's MS's .net object-aware replacement for CMD
18:38 aufrank it seems like they've done some cool things with using object introspection to provide useful command line tools
18:39 Amnesiac has quit IRC (Success)
18:43 xinming Note that CALLE$?FOO might discover the same variable as COMPILING::<$?FOO>
18:43 xinming is CALLE$?FOO a typo?
18:45 eric256 i've thought soo. but havn't heard officialy..i always read it CALLER::$?FOO
18:45 cognominal is there an official motto for Perl6? I like the "dynamic when needed, static when possible
18:45 cognominal " from autrijus
18:46 eric256 they made the command line into a scripting language?  odd
18:47 xinming perl 5 in fact is an amazing language. :-)
18:47 eric256 xinming...that was random
18:47 xinming I've ever met someone who do a one-line programming defeat my 10 lines script... >_<
18:48 xinming eric256: hmm, In fact, I don't like it to be a programming for perl 5, as It is so anonnying on creating objects. :-P
18:50 eric256 i have no idea what any of your last there messages mean.
18:50 eric256 s/there/three/
18:51 * eric256 just notices in the artice that microsofts langauge looks alot like perl.  $, $_, |, 1..$n, hehe.
18:52 aufrank do stubs take a terminator at the end of the block?
18:52 aufrank class Foo { ...}
18:52 aufrank or class Foo { ... } ;
18:52 aufrank ?
18:52 eric256 i beleive either are legal.  ; is always a safe bet though
18:52 xinming hmm, I ever make a script which will parse /var/lib/dpkg/status
18:53 xinming and that script is about 10 lines,
18:53 xinming But Someone do a one-line programming which will do what my 10-lines script do...
18:53 wolverian aufrank, no. class is a statement.
18:54 wolverian aufrank, you can turn any statement into an expression with 'do', though, if you really want.
18:54 wolverian (my $foo = do if 1 { 42 } else { "huh" };)
18:56 xinming wolverian: hmm, In fact, autrijus want to make ever statement an expression IIRC
18:56 xinming s/ever/every/
18:57 aufrank wolverian: that makes more sense to me, but cperl6-mode does wonky indentation if I don't terminate my stub declarations
18:57 aufrank I thought it maybe was doing it for a reason
18:58 xinming aufrank: everyone wants the semi-colon. ;-)
18:59 xinming You may interpolate double-quotish text into a single-quoted string using the \qq[...] construct.
18:59 xinming what does this mean please?
18:59 theorbtwo 'c:\windows\fooqq[$bar].txt'
19:00 xinming thanks.
19:01 xinming for windows. the path specification is ugly compared with Unix.
19:02 theorbtwo Eh.
19:02 theorbtwo It's not that ugly; it's just that the backslash-means-escape crowd and the backslash-is-directory-seperator crowd don't get along well.
19:03 wolverian aufrank, that's a bug, then.
19:03 aufrank I'll look at it
19:04 sili :(
19:05 xinming theorbtwo: hmm, In fact, If my opinion is correct, C use '\
19:05 xinming oop
19:05 eric256 you can interpolate in a single quote string....that seems wrong
19:05 xinming oops
19:05 aufrank sili: what happened?
19:05 sili p6 confuses me
19:06 eric256 ?eval my $x = "hello"; say ' Hello qq[$x]';
19:06 evalbot_7820 Hello qq[$x] bool::true
19:06 xinming C use '\' first to indicate it is an "escape", But M$ still choose '\' as a dir delimeter. That makes no sense. :-X
19:06 sili and i think sub foo {sub bar {} print bar() + 10} would be cool if i could do foo.bar = sub { ...
19:06 xinming ?eval my $s = "hello"; 'abc\qq[$s]'.say;
19:06 evalbot_7820 abchello bool::true
19:06 sili no more confusing submethodness
19:07 eric256 \me realy doesn't like that....now you can't be certain that ' ' isn't interpolating? and the compiler can't make any optimizations on it...seems very very wrong
19:07 eric256 all that slash talk got my /me backwards!
19:07 xinming sili: In my understanding, that submethod is the same as method except the inheritance.
19:07 theorbtwo eric256: The compiler can determine at compile-time if there are any \qq[...]s, as can the reader.
19:08 theorbtwo If you /really/ don't want it, you can use q:0'...', which really doesn't interpolate /at all/.  (IIRC on the exact spelling, but I'm sure there's something like that...)
19:12 Khisanth has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
19:12 sili xinming: ehhh... i still it'd be cool if functions could have their own functions
19:13 xinming sili: hmm, `my sub` won't fit your needs?
19:14 stevan xinming: I think he wants to be able to assign bar
19:14 sili xinming: only if that sub were available to the outside
19:14 stevan which wont work
19:14 xinming sub foo { my sub bar { "haha".say } ; bar; };
19:14 xinming ?sub foo { my sub bar { "haha".say } ; bar; };
19:14 xinming ?sub foo { my sub bar { "haha".say } ; bar; }; foo;
19:14 xinming ?eval sub foo { my sub bar { "haha".say } ; bar; }; foo;
19:14 evalbot_7820 haha bool::true
19:14 sili xinming: not *just* assign to it. it'd be neat if i could do anything with it
19:15 xinming sili: for example?
19:15 xinming use state
19:15 wolverian sili, you seem to want python :)
19:15 stevan sili: thats what objects are for ;)
19:15 sili xinming: sub foo { sub bar {shift+10} print bar(shift)*2}
19:16 sili then i could use bar by itself: say foo.bar(10)# 20
19:16 sili or foo.bar = sub { ....
19:16 elmex has joined #perl6
19:16 sili (excuse my perl5ness, i'm not up to par with p6)
19:16 ingy hola
19:16 whiteg ingy: !
19:17 aufrank hello!
19:17 sili err crap
19:17 xinming sili: hmm, In fact, @Larry might consider `class A { method foo { .. }; A( .. ).foo;
19:17 xinming sili: and we can make a method lvalue maybe...
19:18 xinming that might do what you wish.
19:18 sili hmm that'd be complicated
19:18 xinming But not works for now.
19:18 xinming sili: they are the same to me. :-P
19:18 * sili makes some references about the way javascript/ecma works
19:18 chip autrijus about?
19:18 * stevan references the way javascript/ecma is broken
19:19 stevan chip: havent seen him in a while
19:19 sili stevan: well, not exactly like ecma. it does do some interesting things
19:19 xinming ?eval class A { has $.a; method haha { "hello".say } }; A.haha;
19:19 evalbot_7820 hello bool::true
19:20 xinming This works for now,
19:20 xinming but...
19:20 stevan sili: that is a prototype based OO system.. and what it looks like on the surface is very different than what it is actually doing
19:20 xinming ?eval class A { has $.a; method haha { "hello".say } }; A( a => 5 ).haha;
19:20 evalbot_7820 Error: cannot cast from VObject (MkObject {objType = (mkType "Class"), objAttrs = <ref>, objOpaque = Nothing, objId = 51}) to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
19:20 xinming this doesn't. :'(
19:20 stevan sili: what you want is easily accomplished by passing a block into foo()
19:21 stevan sub foo (Code $bar) { $bar.() }
19:21 stevan and with a default
19:21 stevan sub foo (Code $bar) { $bar //= sub { "hello"} ; $bar.() }
19:21 stevan you can also curry it and use it later
19:22 sili i suppose
19:22 eric256 theorbtwo....then what is the point of ' versus " ?? and you say the compiler and reader can see the \qq[ ...sure we can. but its an extra gotcha with little or no benefit../me goes off to continue lunch.  still feels wrong after perl5
19:22 stevan bar := foo.assuming(sub { "hello bar" };
19:22 xinming sili: Larry will keep what people wished most. :-)
19:22 stevan sili: TIMTOWTDI
19:22 sili always
19:23 wolverian stevan, sub foo (&bar) { bar }
19:23 wolverian stevan, (just throwing syntaxes around..)
19:24 stevan wolverian: so the &bar in the arg would create a local sub named bar?
19:25 wolverian stevan, approximately. :)
19:25 aufrank wolverian: is that a named code parameter?
19:25 wolverian aufrank, named? no.
19:28 xinming Oops. rapterXXX is gone, I found I mislead him wih :blah :-P
19:29 wolverian (that would be :&bar)
19:30 aufrank thanks wolverian
19:30 meppl has quit IRC (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
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19:31 xinming Is there a method or fun to get the bit property?
19:31 xinming ?eval "".perl;
19:31 evalbot_7820 "\"\""
19:32 meppl has joined #perl6
19:32 Lopo has joined #perl6
19:32 Khisanth has joined #perl6
19:33 theorbtwo (0 but true).perl
19:33 wolverian bit property?
19:34 wolverian if you mean the truth value, .bool as specced in S12 currently
19:34 xinming 0 but true;
19:34 theorbtwo ?eval [(0 but true), (1 but false)].perl
19:34 sili is pugs ready enough for me to start writing my system scripts in it?
19:34 evalbot_7820 Error:  unexpected "[" expecting program
19:34 sili mostly basic text processing, a few system commands, directory traversal
19:34 theorbtwo ?eval [(0 but true), (1 but false)]
19:34 evalbot_7820 Error:  unexpected "[" expecting program
19:35 wolverian ?eval 0 but true
19:35 evalbot_7820 Error:  unexpected end of input expecting term
19:35 Limbic_Region sili - I would be hesitent about investing a large effort in something you are going to rely on for production
19:35 Limbic_Region stability is an issue
19:35 xinming sili: hmm, if you don't wish to capture the system command output, and don't wish to use perl 6 rules ;-)
19:35 Limbic_Region two examples off the top of my head
19:35 sili fooey.
19:35 Limbic_Region ternary and named arguments
19:35 wolverian file system API is incomplete
19:36 xinming yeap, write to file is still not implemented.
19:36 sili hmm
19:36 sili "omgwtf"?
19:38 xinming sili: But IMHO, You can use system "/bin/echo $var"; and system "/bin/cat $f_path"; :-P
19:38 sili evil.
19:39 Juerd Implement OO wrappers :)
19:42 xinming hmm, not `system "/bin/echo $var" `  try this, `system "/bin/echo $var > $f_name";` for ">$f_name" mode, and >> for "+>$f_name" mode. :-P
19:43 aufrank if I declare a public accessor in a class, and then want to modify that public variable in one of the methods defined in the class, do I have to put a 'my' on the variable in the method?
19:45 xinming no
19:46 lisppaste3 aufrank pasted "question:" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/13182
19:46 aufrank so the has declaration already lexicalizes the variable?
19:47 xinming ?eval class A { has $.a; method get { $.a = 3; $.a.say } }; A.new( a => 10 ).get;
19:47 evalbot_7820 3 bool::true
19:48 xinming for your example
19:48 xinming ?eval class A { has $.a; method get { $.a ++; $.a.say } }; A.new( a => 10 ).get;
19:48 evalbot_7820 11 bool::true
19:48 aufrank thanks
19:50 aufrank ?eval class A { has $:a; method say_me {say $:a; }} A.new( a => "hi" ).say_me;
19:50 evalbot_7820 hi bool::true
19:50 aufrank ?eval class A { my $a; method say_me {say $a; }} A.new( a => "hi" ).say_me;
19:50 evalbot_7820 bool::true
19:51 aufrank hrm
19:51 xinming ?eval class A { my $a; method say_me {say $a; }} say_me A.new( a => "hi" );
19:51 evalbot_7820 bool::true
19:51 xinming a bug... :-P
19:51 aufrank what's the scoping difference between my $a and has $:a in a class?
19:52 xinming ?eval class A { my $a; method say_me {say $a; }}; my $o = A.new( a => "hi" ); say_me $o;
19:52 evalbot_7820 bool::true
19:52 xinming oops.
19:52 xinming ?eval class A { my $.a; method say_me {say $.a; }}; my $o = A.new( a => "hi" ); say_me $o;
19:52 evalbot_7820 hi bool::true
19:53 xinming hmm, in my opinion, the attribute declared using my won't be able to initialized through contructor.
19:53 xinming though, method BUILD can do this.
19:53 aufrank so has is a my that is initialized during BUILD, sort of?
19:54 xinming aufrank: No,
19:54 xinming you see the example?
19:55 aufrank yes, it seems like $a isn't initialized where $.a is
19:55 xinming a => "hi" pair will automatically assign to class attribute a
19:56 xinming $.a
19:56 xinming not $a
19:56 xinming that might be the difference.
19:56 xinming ?eval class A { my $.a; method say_me {say $.a; }}; say A.new( a => "hi" );
19:56 evalbot_7820 <obj:A> bool::true
19:56 xinming ?eval class A { my $.a; method say_me {say $.a; }}; say_me A.new( a => "hi" );
19:56 evalbot_7820 hi bool::true
19:56 xinming Ok, not bug.
19:57 * xinming don't know if the attribute declared by my will be inherited.
19:58 aufrank what's the name of the readonly accessor generated by has $.a ?
19:59 aufrank ?eval class A { has $.a } A.new(a => "hi").a
19:59 evalbot_7820 \"hi"
19:59 xinming a
19:59 aufrank i'm catching on a little ;)
20:01 xinming ?eval my $s = "abc"; $s ~| "b";
20:01 aufrank ?eval class A { my $:a; method say_me {say $:a; }}; my $o = A.new( a => "hi" ); say_me $o;
20:01 evalbot_7820 "cbc"
20:01 evalbot_7820 hi bool::true
20:01 * xinming wonders how does bitwise operator works for strings.
20:02 * xinming wonders how bitwise operator works for strings.
20:02 * xinming scraches his head.
20:04 eric256 has left
20:06 * aufrank has to go to class
20:11 stevan autrijus: ping
20:12 Limbic_Region oh - everyone here has seen the article about Florida judges throwing out DUI cases because the manufacturer refuses to show the source code right?
20:19 theorbtwo AFAIK, at this point, it's just the one case, but no doubt it will spread.
20:21 Limbic_Region theorbtwo - more than 1 according to the article I just read
20:22 Limbic_Region of course I am rather confused why I heard about this today as it appears to be old news
20:22 Limbic_Region http://www.boingboing.net/2005/​06/06/judges_toss_out_duis.html
20:22 Limbic_Region http://tampatrib.com/florid​ametronews/MGBUBJ5QK9E.html
20:25 theorbtwo Oh, lots more then one.
20:25 Limbic_Region yep
20:25 theorbtwo I think the news before was the rulling, and the news now is lower court judges going with the precident, then?
20:26 Limbic_Region *shrug* - I think it is just plain cool
20:26 theorbtwo So do I.
20:26 Limbic_Region granted, I think there are ways of convicting the criminals without making the source public
20:26 theorbtwo So do I.
20:27 Limbic_Region that doesn't mean we should just be blindly trusting the evidence of blackboxes to convict people
20:27 theorbtwo No, but it's possible to trust it without it being a white-box.
20:28 theorbtwo "Dr. Soandso, is it possible that the defense's claim, that the test came back positive because the defendant was using mouthwash is true?"
20:29 Limbic_Region or even had a breath mint in
20:29 theorbtwo "No, Counsolor, it's not.  We conducted a rigiorous double-blind test with 500 college students, half of whom were drunk and half of whom had used mouthwash, and in no case did the device fail to pass those who had been using mouthwash, or fail those who were drunk."
20:30 theorbtwo OTOH, the State's evidence can't be "because the device showed a red light, and the device is infailable."
20:34 r0nny_ re
20:34 r0nny_ rafl: ping?
20:35 r0nny_ autrijus: ping?
20:38 whiteg has quit IRC ()
20:39 xinming Submethods (keyword: submethod) are non-inheritable methods, or subroutines masquerading as methods. They have an invocant and belong to a particular kind or class.
20:40 xinming hmm, what does subroutines masquerading as methods mean here?
20:42 Limbic_Region just what it says
20:42 Limbic_Region they are not regular subs that can be thought of as methods
20:43 Limbic_Region so don't try and make that association
20:44 xinming Oh, Ok, So, this means submethod is neither sub nor method, right?
20:44 xinming for this sentence.
20:50 Limbic_Region no - it means they are methods that behave differently then other methods (they are non-inheritable)
20:50 Limbic_Region that wording without a larger context is probably confusing and rewording should be considered
20:51 xinming Limbic_Region: Ok,thanks,
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21:06 autrijus stevan: pong
21:08 Limbic_Region autrijus - still at liz and wendy's?
21:08 r0nny_ autrijus: still broken on my sys
21:08 r0nny_ im going for a last try with some special magic
21:08 stevan hey autrijus
21:08 liz6 L~R: yes
21:09 stevan autrijus: I am in the process of converting as much as I can of the bootstrap into just message sends
21:09 Limbic_Region liz - how much longer do you have to put up with him ;-)
21:10 stevan I have added an and and or messages to the bit type, which gives me pretty good support for conditionals
21:11 stevan and a each and apply method for lists,.. which covers any list interations
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21:11 stevan the only thing I am having trouble with is replacing while loops
21:11 stevan any thoughts?
21:12 autrijus Limbic_Region: yes
21:12 autrijus stevan: yup, I got your commits
21:12 autrijus stevan: while loops are tail calls
21:13 liz6 L~R: as long as it takes  ;-)
21:13 xerox has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
21:13 svnbot6 r7821 | stevan++ | Perl6::ObjectSpace -
21:13 svnbot6 r7821 | stevan++ | * making everything into message sends
21:13 autrijus stevan: or better, have Code take .do_while(Code) message/
21:14 autrijus &body.do_while(&cond_that_evaluates_to_bool)
21:14 stevan the second code is the conditional
21:14 stevan ah yes
21:14 stevan thats a thought
21:14 evalbot_7820 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
21:14 stevan I was thinking of it the wrong way,..  with the conditional as the invocant
21:14 autrijus the p6 way is a kern &statement_control<while>
21:14 Limbic_Region liz - oh, good to hear
21:14 autrijus that takes two Code
21:14 evalbot_7821 has joined #perl6
21:15 stevan autrijus: yes, your way is better
21:15 autrijus both are essentially the same, but I like the method one better
21:15 autrijus the stmtctrl has chance of MMD
21:15 autrijus but I can't quite imagine MMD on the cond/body types
21:15 autrijus actually I can, but let's not go there here
21:15 autrijus :)
21:15 stevan autrijus: I was also experimenting with s-expressions as an intermediate format,.. those are the lispy things under the p6 code in the POD sections
21:16 stevan not sure if that is crazy or not,.. but I figured parsing s-expressions is pretty easy, and they are naturally ASTs
21:16 autrijus that is not crazy... they are designed as ASTs
21:16 autrijus it's just their surface syntax never appeared
21:16 autrijus for (gasp) 40 years now
21:16 autrijus ;)
21:16 stevan :)
21:17 justatheory has quit IRC ()
21:17 * stevan checks CPAN for a s-exp parser
21:18 autrijus Language::MzScheme (grin)
21:18 dduncan has joined #perl6
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21:25 evalbot_7821 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
21:25 svnbot6 r7822 | liz++ | added proxy to alarm object specification
21:25 evalbot_7822 has joined #perl6
21:25 liz6 karma liz
21:25 jabbot liz6: liz has neutral karma
21:25 * stevan ponders using mzperl ;)
21:26 autrijus yeah and you get free support from the author :)
21:27 Limbic_Region ?eval say 'liz6++' for 1 .. 10
21:27 evalbot_7822 liz6++ liz6++ liz6++ liz6++ liz6++ liz6++ liz6++ liz6++ liz6++ liz6++ undef
21:27 Limbic_Region karma liz
21:27 jabbot Limbic_Region: liz has neutral karma
21:27 elmex has quit IRC ("gn8")
21:28 Limbic_Region karma liz6
21:28 jabbot Limbic_Region: liz6 has neutral karma
21:28 Limbic_Region hmm
21:28 Limbic_Region both results unexpected
21:28 Limbic_Region the undef at the end
21:28 Limbic_Region and the no impact on the karma
21:28 Limbic_Region *shrug*
21:28 Limbic_Region karma c
21:28 jabbot Limbic_Region: c has karma of 27
21:28 Limbic_Region that's just wrong
21:28 * Limbic_Region calls it a night
21:29 Limbic_Region TTFN
21:29 Limbic_Region has quit IRC ("tiuq\")
21:43 * stevan laughs at control structures,.. bah.. who needs them muhahahahaha
21:43 svnbot6 r7823 | stevan++ | Perl6::ObjectSpace
21:43 svnbot6 r7823 | stevan++ | * added &do_while to the block type :)
21:44 autrijus stevan++
21:44 qwr has joined #perl6
21:44 autrijus hmm, anyone has suggestions on the Conc class name?
21:44 autrijus it's supposed to be the common base class for lightweight threads (POEish), Threads, and Processes
21:45 autrijus but "a Conc object" doesn't really work
21:45 rafl has joined #perl6
21:45 PerlJam Every time I see "Conc" I think "conch"  :)
21:45 liz6 I was thinking "Phrod"
21:46 evalbot_7822 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
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21:47 azuroth fork?
21:47 theorbtwo A conc shell.
21:47 PerlJam no,no, fork would give the wrong idea.
21:47 azuroth hm, yeah
21:47 liz6 nobody likes "phrod" ?
21:47 stevan what is it Stackless calls those mini-thread things?
21:47 theorbtwo What's a phrod?
21:47 azuroth what does it mean??
21:47 PerlJam liz6: I have no clue what phrod referes to.
21:48 PerlJam s/res/rs/
21:50 dada has quit IRC ("%s")
21:50 PerlJam autrijus: perhaps it would be better to focus on the "current" part of concurrency.  Like an ocean current.
21:50 liz6 its a mashup of process and thread
21:51 azuroth how about steamtrain??
21:51 PerlJam A good evocative word would be nice.
21:51 stevan if it is a base class (and I assume not used heavily in user-land) then why not call it Concurrency?
21:52 evalbot_7823 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
21:52 evalbot_7824 has joined #perl6
21:52 stevan or just "Concurrent"
21:52 autrijus because "one Concurrency" doesn't computer
21:52 autrijus "one Concurrent" maybe
21:52 * azuroth ad work
21:52 azuroth bye
21:54 r0nny_ darn
21:54 xinming ?eval class A { method method { "test".say } }; A.new.method
21:54 evalbot_7824 test bool::true
21:54 r0nny_ autrijus: i still got the problems with eval other then perl6 code
21:54 xinming ?eval class A { method print { "test".say }}; A.new.print;
21:54 evalbot_7824 test bool::true
21:54 svnbot6 r7824 | stevan++ | Perl6::ObjectSpace
21:54 svnbot6 r7824 | stevan++ | * added &do_until for blocks as well
21:54 svnbot6 r7824 | stevan++ | * Bootstrap now uses this in a few places,.. more to come :)
21:54 vigenX has joined #perl6
21:55 xinming ?eval class A { method say { "test".say } }; A.new.say;
21:55 PerlJam autrijus: how about "Sim" (simultaneous) or "Coin" (concurrent paths of execution are coincident)  or "Coop" (cooperation)  or maybe just "Conc"  ;-)
21:55 xinming These 3 tests seems all are illegal.
21:55 evalbot_7824 (no output)
21:55 autrijus r0nny_: can you give me a shell account?
21:55 stevan or we could go Java on it "ThingsWhichRunInParrallelToOneAnother" ;)
21:56 r0nny_ autrijus: atm im preparing one
21:56 xinming hmm, I will ask later. :-P sorry.
21:56 justatheory has joined #perl6
21:58 * leo likes Phrod - but is fred a fraud then?`
21:59 leo hi Liz btw - long not seen
22:00 PerlJam autrijus: other suggestions:  mu, parl, waft, bend, bight, weave, spin, warp
22:00 kolibrie has quit IRC ("leaving")
22:00 PerlJam (I like Mu personally :-)
22:02 vigenX has left
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22:04 r0nny_ autrijus: fixed it :)
22:04 r0nny_ removed the pir line from prelude, then it worked sweet
22:05 autrijus okay...
22:05 autrijus r0nny_: I'd like to see that line :)
22:05 rafl has joined #perl6
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22:05 autrijus            when 'pir'     { Pugs::Internals::eval_parrot($code) };
22:05 autrijus like this?
22:05 liz6 leo: yes, it's been too long...
22:05 qwr_ has joined #perl6
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22:06 r0nny_ in Prelude.pm an line 66 is the line of put - it allway broke on this one, but with the line removed it works fine
22:06 r0nny_ eh pir not put
22:07 r0nny_ autrijus: yeah - this one broke it all the time
22:07 vigenX has left
22:07 r0nny_ testing it again with my script
22:07 r0nny_ hmm
22:07 r0nny_ now it breaks on line 67 :/
22:09 autrijus can you nopaste your Prelude.pm?
22:10 r0nny_ hmm - think i need to get a nopaste script first
22:10 theorbtwo has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
22:10 r0nny_ and i need to know, why the command worked on command line
22:10 r0nny_ but doesnt work in file
22:10 autrijus paste is in http://paste.lisp.org/new/perl6
22:12 r0nny_ not what i had in mind - its painfull to paste large files from xterm
22:13 autrijus you can type
22:13 autrijus "svn diff"
22:13 autrijus and see what had changed.
22:13 r0nny_ all i changed was putting a # in front of the line of pir
22:14 autrijus alright, I think I want a shell, as it's not really easy to do it over irc :)
22:15 r0nny_ ok - opened the ssh account again
22:15 svnbot6 r7825 | autrijus++ | * S22 (CPAN) stub, for tomorrow's design session with with kane
22:16 r0nny_ autrijus: u got the querry data - right ?
22:17 autrijus r0nny_: no -- in freenode you need to register your nick
22:17 autrijus to /msg people :/
22:17 r0nny_ darn
22:18 r0nny_ is now known as r0nny
22:18 autrijus you can send the info to [email@hidden.address] maybe?
22:18 evalbot_7824 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
22:18 evalbot_7825 has joined #perl6
22:19 obra autrijus: is autrijus.org still toast?
22:20 autrijus obra: it is
22:20 autrijus though mails are not really bouncing
22:20 autrijus I'll remove it from my registerfly forwarding for now
22:20 autrijus (I got [email@hidden.address] thru gmail)
22:22 rafl_ r0nny: pong
22:24 nothingmuch liz6: ping
22:24 rafl_ Hm. We should chat using the IMCP protocoll.
22:25 liz6 nothingmuch: pong
22:25 nothingmuch is 10.4.3 + memcached fixed?
22:26 liz6 good question...
22:27 leo liz6: I'm in .nl, if my talk gets accepted: http://www.sane.nl/sane2006/
22:27 liz6 leo: cool!
22:28 r0nny rafl_: pingpong!
22:28 autrijus r0nny's reported bug fixed
22:28 autrijus it's syntax error in YAML
22:28 autrijus nothing about prelude
22:29 autrijus it just happens that syck also raises as "Syntax error"
22:31 autrijus so, utterly confusing. apologies
22:31 liz6 nothingmuch: I guess I'll need to rebuild memcached...  ;-)
22:32 nothingmuch i'm doing that too right now
22:33 nothingmuch seems like recompile doesn't help
22:33 nothingmuch i'll try libevent CVS head in a few days
22:33 nothingmuch but too busy right now otherwise
22:33 nothingmuch i may refer sri_ to you for guidance
22:33 nothingmuch sri_: ping from freenode
22:34 liz6 I guess the config would need to b e changed as well...
22:34 autrijus r0nny: fixed, thanks!
22:34 nothingmuch config? as in ./configure's output?
22:34 sri_ nothingmuch: pong
22:34 nothingmuch backlog ~30 lines
22:34 sri_ hi liz6
22:35 nothingmuch sri_: liz6 is my memcached guru
22:35 liz6 it's probably libevent that would need to be remade first
22:36 * nothingmuch rebuilt libevent-1.1a
22:37 nothingmuch btw, 1.1.tar.gz, 1 month earlier than 1.1a has "Work around for kqueue bug in Mac OS X 10.4."
22:37 liz6 the configure of libevent now says:
22:37 liz6 checking for working kqueue... yes
22:37 liz6 yeah!
22:38 nothingmuch btw, make verify worked in the past too
22:38 svnbot6 r7826 | autrijus++ | * r0nny reported the YAML error messages are reported as if they are Pugs errors, which is very confusing when 'syntax error' occurs.  Fix it by prefixing hte error with 'YAML Parse Error: ' for now.
22:40 evalbot_7825 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
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22:41 r0nny btw - how to not fail on failing eval ?
22:42 autrijus try {}
22:43 r0nny hmm
22:45 Eimi has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
22:49 Eimi has joined #perl6
22:49 r0nny anyone knows how the mutiple stream stuff of yaml works ?
22:50 qwr_ is now known as qwr
22:50 r0nny i know there is a way, to assign names to streams
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22:54 stevan autrijus: we now have full bootstrapping :)
22:54 stevan I just commited it
22:54 PerlJam stevan++
22:54 * stevan mumbles something about the third time around for the metamodel :)
22:54 stevan 3 times is the charm :)
22:55 PerlJam well, stevan++ for trying
22:55 stevan anyone wanna write a s-expression parser for me??
22:55 PerlJam and again stvan++ for the third charming time  :)
22:55 svnbot6 r7827 | stevan++ | Perl6::ObjectSpace
22:55 svnbot6 r7827 | stevan++ | * Bootstapping is now complete :)
22:55 svnbot6 r7827 | stevan++ |    - Class is an instance of Class
22:55 svnbot6 r7827 | stevan++ |    - Class is a subclass of Object
22:55 svnbot6 r7827 | stevan++ |    - Object is an instance of Class
22:55 svnbot6 r7827 | stevan++ | (no Package, Module and Eigenclass stuff yet though)
22:55 PerlJam er, stevan
22:55 svnbot6 r7828 | liz++ | Added explanation of "retry" statement and "also" method on Code blocks
22:55 PerlJam er, stevan++
22:55 stevan PerlJam: thanks :)
22:55 r0nny DARN
22:55 evalbot_7826 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
22:55 r0nny now i need to remerge again
22:56 evalbot_7828 has joined #perl6
22:56 stevan r0nny: I doubt those two commits touched anything you are working on
22:57 * stevan ponders writing the s-expression parser in Ruby, serializing it to YAML, then writing the p5 code generator in Python which reads the serialized YAML tree :)
22:58 stevan and use Javascript to orchestrate the entire thing :P
22:58 r0nny sounds crazy
22:58 autrijus that's probably stevan's point :)
22:58 stevan sanity is overratted :)
22:58 stevan ok,.. time for dinner &
22:59 r0nny usually i think JS iss filthy, but sometimes its just cool ;P
22:59 * autrijus decides to give up journal for tonight and just catch some sleep instead
22:59 stevan it actually is a little sane since I need to evaluate Ruby and Python for possible $work usage
23:00 autrijus cool then
23:00 autrijus you'll probably find no difficulty programming in either :)
23:01 r0nny can parrot allready run it ?
23:01 autrijus parrot can run some python
23:01 autrijus not ruby at all
23:01 leo autrijus: the lexical pdd is in svn
23:01 autrijus thank god^Wchip
23:01 autrijus I'll take a look after shower
23:01 autrijus bbiab.
23:03 r0nny btw - are roles working now ?
23:04 hexmode has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
23:06 liz6 has left
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23:11 chip autrijus: something not yet addressed is how to make this fail:   sub foo { eval '$a++'; my $a; }  
23:11 chip ... fail at compile time, that is
23:12 r0nny darn
23:12 r0nny what to do, if pugscc cant find Pugs.Internals ?
23:13 autrijus chip: this will not fail at compile time thank you :)
23:13 autrijus r0nny: oh, you tell autrijus to fix pugscc.
23:14 r0nny hmm
23:15 autrijus did you "make install"?
23:16 r0nny yeah
23:16 r0nny portage usually does make install to install a package
23:16 autrijus ok
23:16 autrijus do this
23:16 autrijus svn up
23:16 autrijus make register
23:17 autrijus perl script/pugscc -e 'say 123'
23:17 autrijus and see it works
23:17 autrijus chip: I don't think it's reasonable to make it fail at compile time.
23:19 svnbot6 r7829 | autrijus++ | * don't pass random unneeded GHC flags to pugscc.
23:19 chip autrijus: hm.  Less work for Parrot?  OK!
23:20 chip oh wait, I think I was unclear
23:20 r0nny darn
23:20 chip autrijus: I want it to fail while compiling the eval, as opposed to failing while running the eval
23:21 * chip also has an OUTER/CALLER question
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23:28 autrijus chip: ok. when compiling the eval, depending on the resolution of $a is ruled to be "erroneous"
23:28 autrijus so larry is fine with it actually capturing the inner $a.
23:29 autrijus what's the O/C question?
23:29 autrijus btw the CALLER can also make the same problem arise
23:29 chip what's your preferred primitive to support $OUTER::a ?
23:29 autrijus in which case it is _also_ erroneous to depend on it.
23:30 autrijus well, fine_lex with a Int param
23:30 lisppaste3 has quit IRC ("Want lisppaste3 in your channel? Email chandler AT unmutual.info.")
23:30 chip I would think $OUTER::a := ...  is legal
23:30 lisppaste3 has joined #perl6
23:31 chip the integer = number of call frames to skip before beginning the search?
23:32 r0nny well cu latter
23:32 r0nny has quit IRC ("sleep")
23:32 chip Oh, no, that's CALLER.  Duh.
23:33 chip the Int = number of :outer() subs to reach
23:33 autrijus indeed.
23:33 chip Question is, do you want it recursive?  In other words, is this valid code?   my $a; if 1 { if 1 { if 1 { print $OUTER::a } } }
23:33 autrijus sure, because OUTER::a is not specific pad
23:34 autrijus it's "start looking but skip this lexical block"
23:34 autrijus to answer your $OUTER::a question, that means a similar form to store_lex.
23:34 autrijus I'll be right back.
23:34 chip k
23:36 leo ?eval my $a=42; if 1 { if 1 { if 1 { print $OUTER::a }}}
23:36 evalbot_7829 42bool::true
23:36 cognominal_ autrijus, you sait once that pugs with haskell backend support STM (software transationnel) backend. That means that ghc is concurrent haskell or what?
23:36 cognominal_ s/sait/said/
23:37 chip I find this confusing: <autrijus> btw the CALLER can also make the same problem arise
23:37 leo ?eval my $a=42; if 1 { if 1 { if 1 { print $a }}}
23:37 evalbot_7829 42bool::true
23:37 * cognominal_ is reading SPJ paper about composable memory transactions
23:38 cognominal_ the first time I tried I freaked out because of my lack of Haskell knowledge.
23:40 khisanth__ has joined #perl6
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23:47 autrijus cognominal_: GHC implements concurrent haskell
23:47 autrijus chip: ok, this is so that
23:48 autrijus sub foo { blah(); my $x; }; sub blah { $CALLER::x }
23:48 svnbot6 r7830 | autrijus++ | * Give failed pugscc (due to lack of 'make install' or
23:48 svnbot6 r7830 | autrijus++ |   'make register') a better error msg.
23:48 autrijus see? same problem.
23:48 autrijus as the eval
23:48 autrijus chip: your PDD is sane
23:48 chip autrijus: I see it.  This tells me that while $OUTER::x can cause a compile error, $CALLER::x can't.
23:48 chip thanks
23:48 autrijus I had thought that PIR compiler would compile away find_lex into straight reg lookup
23:49 autrijus but then I thought about interacting HLLs
23:49 autrijus and LexInfo seems better.
23:49 chip you need LexInfo for CALLER
23:49 autrijus chip: yes, I think that is correct.
23:49 autrijus right.
23:49 autrijus verily verily.
23:49 autrijus chip++ # sanity
23:49 evalbot_7829 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
23:49 autrijus I'll think about codegenning to it
23:49 chip autrijus++ # patience and support
23:49 autrijus I wonder if I can get codegen first or if leo would make it work first
23:49 * chip rolls his eyes
23:50 chip "I wonder."
23:50 evalbot_7830 has joined #perl6
23:50 autrijus you rolled a 3
23:50 chip hey, my left eye has two pupils.  neat
23:50 autrijus you mean they are not 20-sided?
23:51 autrijus anyway. :) I'll go sleep now and journal this wonderful news tomorrow
23:51 * autrijus waves... &
23:51 * chip 's vision steps in 15-degree units
23:51 cognominal_ thx autrijus
23:59 cognominal_ ?eval say 'ok' if 0 but true
23:59 evalbot_7830 Error:  unexpected end of input expecting term
23:59 cognominal_ ?eval say 'ok' if 0 but true;
23:59 evalbot_7830 Error:  unexpected ";" expecting term
23:59 cognominal_ ?evak say true
23:59 cognominal_ ?eval say true
23:59 evalbot_7830 Error:  unexpected "t" expecting block construct, ":", term, term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input

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