Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-11-05

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:01 autrijus theorbtwo: also if you are working on Cgen, misc/Blondie/ may be inspirational
00:02 autrijus RTS = runtime system, which carries the ability to eval string
00:02 theorbtwo That'd be... hard.
00:02 theorbtwo I was thinking that'd be pretty well dead last -- is it needed for simple stuff?
00:03 theorbtwo Right now, I'm at can't-start-yet stage, because I can't get PIL for Prelude.pm.
00:05 autrijus hm.
00:05 theorbtwo Yeah, I probably shouldn't consider this a blocker yet.
00:05 autrijus try taking the FIRST away and desugar it?
00:10 theorbtwo Odd; there's only one FIRST and I just changed it, but I still get the same error.
00:11 autrijus did you rebuild pugs?
00:11 autrijus I think it's taking its own compiler space FIRST
00:11 autrijus since prelude is inlined
00:11 autrijus now it really shouldn't do that.
00:11 theorbtwo Oh.  I modified a copy of prelude.
00:12 theorbtwo Hold on a sec, let me try another trick or two first.
00:13 theorbtwo OK, renaming the file and changing the module declaraton at the top don't help, will try editing the main copy and recompiling.
00:13 theorbtwo Oh -- I'm not using a quite-current SVN snap; should I change to the fallback repo?
00:13 svnbot6 r6477 | autrijus++ | * Squash an empty import warning for precompiled preludes.
00:13 autrijus change to fallback please
00:13 autrijus I may have a fix for you in a bit
00:13 autrijus (shower, bbiab)
00:14 dduncan actually, what I think I'll do first is ...
00:14 dduncan an in-memory database that can be dumped to and reloaded from disk in the form of perl code
00:15 dduncan it won't be very fast, but it should be suitable as a proof of concept
00:15 theorbtwo Eh, dduncan?
00:15 dduncan the perl code wouldn't be very complicated, just hashes of arrays of ...
00:16 dduncan I'm just saying what I'll probably do prior to writing a MySQL client
00:16 theorbtwo Oh!
00:16 theorbtwo I forgot that you were writing a DBI.
00:16 dduncan the easiest thing to do in my mind is just make a database in perl
00:16 dduncan talking to other ones can come after this is known to be working
00:17 dduncan Pugs' testing needs should be largely met either way
00:18 Juerd Will it be a straight port, or are interface suggestions welcome?
00:18 Juerd If the latter, please study DBIx::Simple
00:19 dduncan suggestions are always welcome, though I have an idea what I want to do ... it will be influenced by existing things but not be a straight port of them
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00:20 theorbtwo Allo, scook0.
00:20 dduncan the native interface will be a SQL AST, so I don't have to parse SQL internally, but a SQL parser can be wrapped around it for people that prefer that way of doing things
00:20 scook0 hi
00:21 * dduncan away to the mailbox ...
00:21 theorbtwo dduncan: I'm not sure if that'd mean more work or less.
00:22 theorbtwo I suspect that means many backends are going to have to put the AST back down into actuall SQL.
00:23 autrijus theorbtwo: I have a fix for you now. will commit in a bit
00:24 theorbtwo How do you svn switch from the native repo to the perl.org one?  Plain switch wants to contact the original repo, --relocate complaigns about mismatching uuids...
00:24 autrijus svn can't do that -- need svk
00:25 theorbtwo Oh.
00:25 * theorbtwo just rm -rfs the directory, and will reget from the right repo with svk.
00:26 dduncan just to clarify, my very first perl 6 database related thing that works will be completely self-contained; it *is* the back-end ...
00:26 dduncan for very simple relational databases, coding up an implementation is actually quite easy, easier than interfacing to other dbs
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00:27 dduncan mainly this is a proof of concept, to test that a front end works correctly, while limiting the number of points of possible failure, for testing
00:28 autrijus theorbtwo: you can get svk with just syncingc the [h]ead
00:28 * dduncan off to the mailbox
00:30 * theorbtwo feels like a rank n00b.
00:30 svnbot6 r6478 | autrijus++ | * theorbtwo notes that FIRST {} blocks did not
00:30 svnbot6 r6478 | autrijus++ |   desugar into anything that passes PIL compilation,
00:30 svnbot6 r6478 | autrijus++ |   as it's useing a Stmt in LValue position.
00:30 svnbot6 r6478 | autrijus++ |   Fixed by desugaring using ternary if.
00:30 theorbtwo HTTP Path Not Found: REPORT request failed on '/perl6/!svn/bc/1/pugs/trunk': '/perl6/!svn/bc/1/pugs/trunk' path not found
00:30 autrijus this is with [h]?
00:30 theorbtwo Yep.
00:30 autrijus very weird.
00:30 autrijus maybe try -3 or something
00:31 theorbtwo First-time using, took defaults for everything.
00:31 autrijus default is [a]
00:32 theorbtwo Well, everything except that.
00:32 theorbtwo Hitting up-enter from the shell prompt is now working, though.
00:32 autrijus mm, can't reproduce it here :/
00:32 autrijus ok...
00:32 autrijus then svk pull from it
00:33 autrijus to get the latest change
00:33 autrijus that should fix prelude comp for you
00:33 theorbtwo (Didn't ask me how much to get, though, and seems to be getting everything.)
00:33 autrijus I'll go shower for real :)
00:33 theorbtwo Have fun.
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00:40 nothingmuch autrijus: ping
00:47 autrijus nopong
00:47 autrijus (about to sleep, so try to be brief :))
00:56 autrijus ...timeout?
00:56 autrijus oh well. good night lambdacamels, see you tomorrow :)
00:56 * autrijus waves &
00:57 nothingmuch not yet
00:57 theorbtwo Goodnight, autrijus.
00:58 autrijus nothingmuch: for pads chip is the guy you want to ask
00:58 nothingmuch one short thing
00:58 nothingmuch i skimmed the doc and wasn't sure
00:58 autrijus I merely confirm the sanity, and the ability for codegen to gen it
00:58 nothingmuch are they statically resolved? or dynamically at runtime by hashing?
00:58 nothingmuch because if they could be made into an offset table, that would be performance happy
00:58 autrijus you are asking impl, not spec, then
00:59 autrijus the spec doesn't say really what :outer will be turned to by PIR
00:59 nothingmuch just whether the spec seems to be vague enough to allow it
00:59 autrijus yeah
00:59 nothingmuch ah, ok
00:59 autrijus impl is leo's domain.
01:03 autrijus &
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02:00 * rafl_ wants to comment on S22 but is too lame to check out yet another repository.. :-/
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04:36 rafl_ autrijus: Could Module::ScanDeps be extended to give me the required version if a script does 'use Foo::Bar 1.00;'?
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05:06 rafl_ changes topic to: '-Ofun: http://xrl.us/hxhk | pugscode.org | pugs.kwiki.org | paste: http://paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 or http://sial.org/pbot/perl6'
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05:50 nothingmuch obra: ping
05:51 nothingmuch obra: what size delay should I expect from replies to rt.cpan.org? please answer with my nick so I can backlog
05:54 obra hey
05:55 obra nothingmuch: we greylist. so at least 5 minutes. but depends on your MTA
05:55 obra nothingmuch: also, we go through perl.org for spamfiltering
05:55 nothingmuch ah
05:56 nothingmuch in that case i won't suspect failure yet
05:56 nothingmuch thanks =)
05:56 nothingmuch good night
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06:41 dduncan well, it appears that the usual server is up again
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08:19 geoffb *yawn*
08:22 gaal say "Hello, world!"
08:36 xinming ?eval multi sub infix:<+> ( $a, $b ) { "$a $b" }; "good"+"afternoon";
08:36 evalbot_7842 "good afternoon"
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10:36 christopher Why can't I write [=] ($a, $b, $c) 3; to initialize a whole array?
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10:41 svnbot6 r6479 | autrijus++ |  r7891@not (orig r7842):  rafl | 2005-11-05 07:02:24 +0100
10:41 svnbot6 r6479 | autrijus++ |   r19201@ata:  rafl | 2005-11-05 06:53:22 +0100
10:41 svnbot6 r6479 | autrijus++ |   * My ideas on S22.
10:41 svnbot6 r6479 | autrijus++ |   r19202@ata:  rafl | 2005-11-05 07:01:46 +0100
10:41 svnbot6 r6479 | autrijus++ |   * Some more S22 thoughts.
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10:47 christopher sorry, that should be [=] $a, $b, $c, 3;   same question.
10:50 autrijus iblech: svnbot6 can point back to openfoundry
10:50 autrijus christopher: because assignment is not (yet) an infix operator.
10:50 autrijus hm, wait, but it is :)
10:51 * autrijus looks
10:52 autrijus looks like an easy fix... fixing
10:52 christopher autrijus: so it's not wrong; just a bug?  or unimplemented?
10:53 autrijus fixed
10:53 autrijus will commit in a bit
10:53 iblechbot has joined #perl6
10:53 autrijus christopher: write a test for it?
10:54 autrijus in t/operators/reduce-metaop.t
10:54 autrijus christopher: do you have a committer bit?
10:55 christopher cool, thanks.  No, I can't commit.
10:55 autrijus okay, your email addr please
10:56 autrijus (for sending the committer bit)
10:57 christopher autrijus: malon at mit dot edu
10:57 autrijus sent. welcome aboard :) the svn repo at svn.openfoundry.org/pugs is back -- please add yourself to AUTHORS and commit a metaop.t
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10:58 christopher Do you recommend [=] ($a, $b, $c)>>.foo 3 to initialize member variables at once?
10:59 autrijus other than the slight problem of >>.method not yet implemented, sure, why not
10:59 autrijus though the vanilla
10:59 autrijus .foo = 3 for ($a, $b, $c)
10:59 autrijus is maybe more readable
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11:00 svnbot6 r7841 | stevan++ | Perl6::ObjectSpace : me--
11:00 svnbot6 r7842 | rafl++ |  r19201@ata:  rafl | 2005-11-05 06:53:22 +0100
11:00 svnbot6 r7842 | rafl++ |  * My ideas on S22.
11:00 svnbot6 r7842 | rafl++ |  r19202@ata:  rafl | 2005-11-05 07:01:46 +0100
11:00 svnbot6 r7842 | rafl++ |  * Some more S22 thoughts.
11:00 svnbot6 r7843 | autrijus++ | [Massive backport from svn.perl.org now openfoundry is back]
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11:01 autrijus :D
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11:01 autrijus (excess flood)++ # spared the channel of a total replay
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11:07 svnbot6 r7845 | renormalist++ | Emacs Mode for Perl6:
11:07 svnbot6 r7845 | renormalist++ |   The formerly forked "cperl6-mode.el" is now reintegrated
11:07 svnbot6 r7845 | renormalist++ |   into cperl-mode.el based on its latest version 5.10.
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11:15 rafl Hello renormalist
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11:23 nothingmuch obra: ping
11:24 rafl autrijus: Was it intentional to remove my thoughts on S22 or did that happen by mistake?
11:26 autrijus rafl: it happened by mistake
11:26 autrijus I did a co --import from svn.perl.org
11:26 autrijus so it overwrote the only openfoundry change meanwhile
11:26 autrijus mea culpa, fixing
11:27 autrijus done :) thanks for noticing
11:27 rafl Thank you
11:29 svnbot6 r7846 | autrijus++ | * rafl's thoughts on S22, accidentally removed during merge from svn.perl.org.  Sorry.
11:30 renormalist hi rafl
11:30 renormalist I just have to go with my wife and child around the block. Will be back in 1h. :-)
11:30 rafl renormalist: OK, see you.
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11:34 svnbot6 r7847 | renormalist++ | - Forgot contact and usage. (cperl-mode)
11:40 svnbot6 r7848 | autrijus++ | * Parse for [=] per request from christopher.
11:40 svnbot6 r7848 | autrijus++ |   However, the lvalue context is not properly restored, so
11:40 svnbot6 r7848 | autrijus++ |   it does not currently work yet.
11:44 theorbtwo So [=] $a, $b, $c, 5 would set $a..$c to 5?
11:44 christopher why not just $a?
11:44 christopher sorry, I was going on to the next question.
11:44 christopher yes.  But if you did ([=] $a, $b, $c, 5) = 3; then $a alone would become 3.
11:45 autrijus that is correct.
11:45 autrijus though this borders on obfu :)
11:45 theorbtwo The last one certianly does, at least.
11:46 autrijus brb... *ponders more about PIL2 *
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11:52 svnbot6 r7849 | iblech++ | Usual svn props.
11:53 gaal ?eval sub foo(Int $p1) { } foo("this should be an error, not a coercion, right?")
11:53 evalbot_7848 Can't exec "./pugs": Permission denied at examples/network/evalbot//evalhelper.p5 line 46.
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11:54 gaal ?eval sub foo(Int $p1) { } foo("this should be an error, not a coercion, right?")
11:54 evalbot_7849 undef
11:54 gaal ?eval sub foo(Int $p1) { say "got: $p1" } foo("this should be an error, not a coercion, right?")
11:54 evalbot_7849 got: this should be an error, not a coercion, right? bool::true
11:54 gaal That can't be right.
11:56 gaal What *ought* to happen?
11:58 svnbot6 r7850 | malon++ | Tests for assignment as a reduction operator [=]
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12:00 gaal ?eval sub foo($p1) { say "alive" } foo(1, 2, 3)
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12:00 gaal ?eval sub foo($p1) { say "alive" } foo(1, 2, 3)
12:00 evalbot_7850 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&foo"
12:00 gaal good.
12:01 gaal ?eval sub foo($p1) { say "alive" } foo(1) # sanity
12:01 evalbot_7850 alive bool::true
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12:22 theorbtwo Woo, prelude PIL (p5), pretty-printed.  (Thank you, demerphq, for data-dump-streamer, which BTW gets deep recrusion warnings dumping that.)
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13:33 autrijus gaal: this is same as
13:33 autrijus my Int $p := "Foo";
13:33 autrijus I'm pretty sure that it triggers coerce:<as>
13:34 autrijus and as such should be a warning and 0
13:34 autrijus not "Foo"
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13:35 autrijus otoh until the "types" milestone, I don't really have a rigorous understanding of static vs runtime typing rules :)
13:35 autrijus theorbtwo: nice to hear!
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14:10 svnbot6 r7851 | autrijus++ | * Repair PIR codegen; use "new .Continuation" instead of
14:10 svnbot6 r7851 | autrijus++ |   the old style "newsub" op.  Suggested by Leo.
14:12 Juerd One thing I've noticed is that once non-Perl6 things start taking time again, it's very hard to follow development, even superficially...
14:13 Juerd I skip most of the p6l discussion, the irc chatter, the commit logs..
14:13 Juerd Thank God (That's Autrijus) there's Autrijus's journal
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14:14 autrijus :D
14:15 autrijus to be fair, luqui and obra and allison has all been blogging as well.
14:15 evalbot_7851 has joined #perl6
14:15 autrijus # planet.pugscode.org
14:15 Juerd I know, but:
14:16 Juerd - I'm mostly interested in non-technical updates, as I don't understand things anyway, at the current level
14:16 autrijus nodnod
14:16 Juerd - Luke's journal is hard to grok because it's almost verbatim (I read it sometimes, but not much stays in my head)
14:17 Juerd - IRC logs are nice for archival, not for reading :)
14:17 Juerd This leaves your journal as my favourite way of staying more-or-less up-to-date
14:20 autrijus :)
14:20 autrijus there's the weekly summary, though
14:20 * theorbtwo wonders if anybody has created a livjournal feed from that yet.
14:21 Juerd autrijus: They're hardly summaries.
14:21 Juerd TBH, one can learn almost as much by looking at Subject: lines
14:21 theorbtwo Nope.
14:21 autrijus I don't know... it helps me a lot :)
14:22 Juerd They used to be very good. Now, they read more like indexes than summaries
14:23 theorbtwo I'm off for a walk; later.
14:24 Juerd Me too
14:29 autrijus same, actually :)
14:31 rafl renormalist: ping
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14:34 svnbot6 r7852 | autrijus++ | * inline Continuation support is broken on switch and CGP cores
14:34 svnbot6 r7852 | autrijus++ |   in Parrot -- dies with "Illegal register number"; switch to
14:34 svnbot6 r7852 | autrijus++ |   computed goto core for -B Parrot.
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15:20 r0nny_ yo
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15:34 Steve_p Hey...where might the most up to date docs for say() be?
15:35 Steve_p Perl6::Bible?
15:36 masak Steve_p: well, &say is just &print with a newline thrown in
15:36 masak i'm not sure if there's anything more to document :)
15:37 Steve_p There's a bit more to how it works with objects, especially IO-based object IIRC
15:39 masak Steve_p: I can't find it in S29
15:39 Steve_p Hmmm
15:40 Steve_p OK, I'll follow what's in Perl6::Say
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16:01 r0nny_ ping? - is there a wiki for duscussion of special perl6 module collections ?
16:02 rafl What are special perl6 module collections?
16:02 r0nny_ casue i got a nice idea for a data serialisation/deserialisation framework should be cappable of handling multiple languages
16:02 r0nny_ languages as in xml, yaml and so on
16:04 rafl Isn't yaml already a language that's suitable to serialize almost anything?
16:04 r0nny_ yeah
16:04 r0nny_ but xml is widely used, too
16:04 r0nny_ also it should be cappable of replacin the .perl method
16:04 rafl You can serialize xml with yaml.
16:05 r0nny_ where is the need of serializing xml with yaml, if the app needs xml ???
16:06 r0nny_ and in webstuff they use xml for async comunication
16:06 r0nny_ so a serializer cappable of xml isnt the worst idea
16:07 r0nny_ even if xml is bad vodoo, its common (unfortunately)
16:07 rafl Where is the need of serializing something with xml when the app needs yaml?
16:07 r0nny_ there is ne need
16:07 r0nny_ so u dnet need to use this posibility
16:08 r0nny_ u just need to be cappable to do
16:08 r0nny_ bacasue the next gerneration of web will massively use xml
16:09 Khisanth hmm is throwing gasoline on yourself and setting yourself on fire really a good idea just because it is popular to do so? :)
16:09 rafl So what's special now? Simply write an XML serializer.
16:09 r0nny_ Khisanth: i know what u mean
16:10 Khisanth yes, what makes it special?
16:11 r0nny_ pecial as in give the people forced to put themself on fire  fire-resistent clothes
16:13 rafl Is that desirable?
16:14 r0nny_ u dont need to give it to people put themsolf on fire by their own will
16:15 Khisanth but it doesn't make it special
16:15 r0nny_ well - if u do next-gern webapps, u have to deal with xml - so i'd like to see different ways of serializing data with the same api
16:15 r0nny_ hmm
16:15 rafl I don't see why an XML serializer is good for that. But well.. simply write it and check it in. Lets see what it can do afterwards.
16:15 r0nny_ maybe special just was the wrong word
16:16 r0nny_ it should be one of the modules shiped directly with perl6
16:18 rafl Write it and ask those guys who are responsible for the Perl 6 distribution.
16:19 r0nny_ ok
16:19 Khisanth that sounds like a pretty far off discussion to take place
16:19 r0nny_ then im going to investigate how to use perl6 to get informations on its data structures
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18:07 Juerd Today I bought and read (skimmed) Perl Best Practices
18:07 Juerd Most of the rules I already practice
18:07 Juerd Some I find very silly or even a bad idea
18:08 Juerd Some inspired me and will probably change how I code
18:08 Juerd And there are some rules that I find contradictory
18:08 Juerd But it's a good book, anyway
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18:12 geoffb Juerd, I think you just had the Standard PBP Response (tm).  :-)
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18:18 Juerd I'm a bit afraid that people who have read this book will never love Attribute::Property because it breaks at least 3 rules on the outside and at least a dozen on the inside
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18:19 Juerd But none of the arguments for the rules it breaks apply... (That is, the outside rules. The source could be much clearer, of course.)
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18:23 geoffb ?eval my ($q, $r) = (10 / 7, 10 % 7);
18:23 evalbot_7852 (\10/7, \3)
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18:23 geoffb ?eval my ($q, $r) = (int(10 / 7), int(10 % 7));
18:23 evalbot_7852 (\1, \3)
18:23 geoffb ?eval my ($q, $r) = (int(10 / 7), int(10 % 7)); "$q $r"
18:23 evalbot_7852 "1 3"
18:24 geoffb ?eval my ($a, $b) = (10, 7); my ($q, $r) = (int($a / $b), int($a % $b)); "$q $r"
18:24 evalbot_7852 "1 3"
18:24 geoffb ?eval my ($a, $b) = (10, -7); my ($q, $r) = (int($a / $b), int($a % $b)); "$q $r"
18:24 evalbot_7852 "-1 -4"
18:24 geoffb ?eval my ($a, $b) = (-10, 7); my ($q, $r) = (int($a / $b), int($a % $b)); "$q $r"
18:24 evalbot_7852 "-1 4"
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18:25 geoffb ?eval my ($a, $b) = (-10, -7); my ($q, $r) = (int($a / $b), int($a % $b)); "$q $r"
18:25 evalbot_7852 "1 -3"
18:26 geoffb good, at least that matches P5 . . .
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19:27 svnbot6 r7853 | autrijus++ | * Parrot 0.3.1 doesn't allow set_addr for Closure, so use
19:27 svnbot6 r7853 | autrijus++ |   newclosure instead.
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19:37 r0nny_ how can i get the hash conains the list of member-name=>menber-value ? and the data-type ?
19:38 autrijus elaborate?
19:39 r0nny_ it tells it doesnt know this one
19:39 autrijus post some code example?
19:40 r0nny_ http://rafb.net/paste/results/FRdIwR73.html
19:41 Rickdangerous has left
19:42 r0nny_ whad did i wrong ?
19:43 r0nny_ anyone ?
19:43 autrijus er
19:44 autrijus I did not mean ".elaborate"
19:44 autrijus you want to dump the attributes
19:44 autrijus is that the idea?
19:44 r0nny_ yeah
19:44 autrijus say $baz.perl;
19:44 autrijus is one
19:44 autrijus if you want it in hash notation
19:44 autrijus say %$baz.perl
19:44 r0nny_ i want them in another way
19:44 autrijus is another
19:45 autrijus if you want to control it
19:45 autrijus for %$baz.for %$baz.kv -> $k, $v { say "$k: $v" };
19:45 autrijus err
19:45 autrijus for %$baz.kv -> $k, $v { say "$k: $v" };
19:45 autrijus something like that
19:45 Steve_p has left
19:45 r0nny_ i want to try writing a generic data serialisation framework can read/write perl data, yaml, yml, and so on
19:45 autrijus try the "for" above
19:45 gaal souldn't $baz.kv work too?
19:46 gaal s/s/sh/
19:46 r0nny_ it wont do
19:46 r0nny_ ok - how can i get the data type ?
19:47 autrijus gaal: no, that would be calling kv on the obj
19:47 autrijus which doesn't have such method
19:47 autrijus the % is a cast
19:47 autrijus r0nny_: you can use .ref
19:47 r0nny_ direct method ?
19:47 gaal oh it's an *object*
19:47 gaal ok
19:48 autrijus r0nny_: yeah, like $v.ref
19:49 r0nny_ hmm
19:49 r0nny_ now i need to find a way to deal with cyclic data
19:52 rafl I guess you can use =:= for that.
19:52 r0nny_ =:= ?
19:53 rafl See S03
19:55 r0nny_ nice
19:58 gaal I found two amusing ROT-13 pairs today. One is amusing because it's English: "irk".rot13 => "vex"
19:58 gaal the other is amusing because it's Perl: "gnat".rot13 => "tang" :-)
19:59 r0nny_ hmm
20:00 r0nny_ does anyone know a good way to find cyclic data structures ?
20:01 Khisanth there are a module or two that does that
20:01 r0nny_ wich ones ?
20:02 r0nny_ (and are they perl6)
20:02 Khisanth http://search.cpan.org/~lds/Deve​l-Cycle-1.04/lib/Devel/Cycle.pm
20:04 rafl r0nny_: Simply remember all things you've seen so far and use =:= to check whether the underlying variable is the same. Then you can replace that with a reference to the first occurence. This doesn't discover cycles, but it breaks them up.
20:05 r0nny_ hmm
20:06 r0nny_ i think i will take a look at the perl5 modules, and port them
20:09 masak i have leafed through A05 again, and (again) i realize that perl6 rules are way cool
20:09 masak is there an implementation somewhere?
20:09 masak (even a half-finished one)
20:09 r0nny_ afaik the recent pugs version is cappable of them
20:10 r0nny_ (if u use a recent parrot)
20:10 masak r0nny_: ok, i'll give it a try
20:11 rafl Look at t/rules
20:23 rafl What is the 'but' keyword for?
20:25 autrijus S12
20:26 autrijus "does" is destructive mutator, "but" is the nondestructive (functional) one
20:30 svnbot6 r7854 | autrijus++ | * Accomodate Parrot trunk's PGE::Hs change (r9802)
20:30 svnbot6 r7854 | autrijus++ |   to capture the PGE_String form in Matches.
20:31 autrijus PGE shift/reduce parser support is now in Pugs.
20:31 obra ooh
20:31 Khisanth but is it in Parrot yet? :P
20:31 autrijus sure is, because that's where we got it from :)
20:32 autrijus pugs> ('a*' ~~ /<p6rule>/)<p6rule><expr><type>
20:32 autrijus "postfix:*"
20:32 autrijus ('a*' ~~ /<p6rule>/)<p6rule><expr>[0]<value>
20:32 autrijus "a"
20:32 autrijus etc
20:32 autrijus you can walk the tree in p6
20:33 autrijus just as in PIR
20:33 Khisanth oO
20:34 Khisanth what is ('a*' ~~ /<p6rule>/)<p6rule><expr><type> suppose to mean?
20:34 autrijus the match object returned by matching the string 'a*'
20:34 autrijus against the builtin named rule <p6rule>
20:34 autrijus is a match object that has a named "p6rule"
20:35 autrijus which contains an expr submatch, of type "postfix:*"
20:35 autrijus with one positional part, a literal "a"
20:35 autrijus the <p6rule> matches a perl6 rule string :)
20:39 Khisanth well I was mainly confused by the <p6rule><expr><type> part :)
20:39 Khisanth now it just looks like it's accessing a hash?
20:39 autrijus yeah
20:40 autrijus that's exactly what it is
20:40 autrijus ?eval 1 ~~ /1/
20:40 evalbot_7853 Error: cannot cast from VUndef to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
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20:44 frederico ? say "test";
20:45 liz6 frederico: you mean:
20:45 liz6 ?eval say "test";
20:45 evalbot_7853 test bool::true
20:45 liz6 ?
20:45 frederico yes
20:45 frederico liz6, I'm only want to see the bot working. thanks
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21:19 svnbot6 r7855 | autrijus++ | * Much improved pretty printing for VMatch objects.
21:19 svnbot6 r7855 | autrijus++ |   This allows a convenient dump of a Match tree in the
21:19 svnbot6 r7855 | autrijus++ |   Pugs interactive shell.  Try this for some AST fun:
21:19 svnbot6 r7855 | autrijus++ |     pugs> 'ab*|c' ~~ /<p6rule>/
21:19 svnbot6 r7855 | autrijus++ |   pmichaud++ for doing all the shift/reduce parser work
21:19 svnbot6 r7855 | autrijus++ |   behind this feature. :)
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21:26 autrijus hmm, L~R broken Makefile.PL
21:26 autrijus by introducing File::Spec ;)
21:27 autrijus oh well, I guess I'll still keep those.
21:31 svnbot6 r7856 | autrijus++ | * Parrot embedding was broken by Limbic_Region's File::Spec
21:31 svnbot6 r7856 | autrijus++ |   change in Makefile.PL -- repaired the confusion between dot
21:31 svnbot6 r7856 | autrijus++ |   and commas, although File::Spec is still kept.
21:31 G2 has joined #perl6
21:31 autrijus okay, PGE and eval PIR on both embed parrot and external parrot passed
21:31 evalbot_7855 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
21:32 autrijus just in time for Parrot's monthly release :)
21:32 evalbot_7856 has joined #perl6
21:33 svnbot6 r7857 | gaal++ | Article for The Perl Review (WIP).
21:33 svnbot6 r7857 | gaal++ | Your suggestions are welcome! My intended audience: Perl 5 programmers who
21:33 svnbot6 r7857 | gaal++ | haven't necessarily been following the Perl 6 process. The main focus is
21:33 svnbot6 r7857 | gaal++ | getting people interested with things that work now, without overwhelming
21:33 svnbot6 r7857 | gaal++ | theoretical discussion.
21:34 rafl autrijus: Great. parrot packages for Debian are also ready so I can release the next pugs in Debian with perl5 and parrot embedding. :-)
21:35 eric256 has joined #perl6
21:36 autrijus rafl: wonderful :)
21:36 autrijus ooh, gaal article
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21:37 liz6 where in the tree can I find that article?
21:37 eric256 ?eval 'ab*|c' ~~ /<p6rule>/
21:37 autrijus apparently docs/articles/tpr.pod
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21:37 autrijus eric256: I don't think evalbot is running on a machine with rules support
21:37 autrijus ?eval 'ab*|c' ~~ /<p6rule>/
21:37 evalbot_7857 Error: cannot cast from VUndef to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
21:38 eric256 how do i get rules support on feather?  i manage the build there
21:38 liz6 hmmm.. I don't seem to have a docs/articles...
21:38 autrijus liz6: svn up
21:38 autrijus eric256: perlcabal.org/~autrijus/tmp/tmp.txt for output
21:38 autrijus eric256: you need trunk parrot
21:39 rafl eric256: Ah, good. How about migrating from 'make; make install' to the Debian packages of pugs and parrot?
21:39 autrijus accessible somewhere in PATH
21:39 autrijus that's all
21:39 autrijus oh right, feather is debian, talk to rafl, never mind me :)
21:39 eric256 lol
21:39 autrijus liz6: svk pull, even
21:39 eric256 rafl are the debian packages avail every 15mins?
21:40 autrijus there's a debian/ file in pugs
21:40 autrijus directory, even
21:40 rafl eric256: No, but it's not a problem to migrate your compile scripts to compile and install Debian packages. Where can I find them?
21:41 lisppaste3 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
21:42 gaal hi
21:43 eric256 but if Debian packages aren't up to date then whats the point of converting the scripts?
21:43 eric256 /home/eric256/auto
21:44 gaal please tell me I'm not the only one who accidentally selects an entire web page in the browser because I hit ^AA to switch to a shell...
21:44 svnbot6 r7858 | autrijus++ | * wizards.p6 - optional params are now ($param?), not (?$param).
21:45 geoffb eric256, I believe rafl is saying "build fresh debian packages during build cycle, and install them"
21:45 eric256 ahh. that would make more sense.
21:45 geoffb eric256, :-)
21:47 svnbot6 r7859 | gaal++ | ?$optional -> $optional? in tpr.pod too
21:47 eric256 looks like i just needed to export the path to parrot.. so i tried that and we'll see how it works out next build ;)
21:47 autrijus gaal: I never did that because firefox interprets "A" as a search for me
21:48 autrijus (and sometimes I have the autoselect extension on)
21:48 * eric256 gets impatient and forces a build. ;)
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21:49 autrijus mugwump: you okay if I rm docs/class/ ?
21:49 autrijus it's a wonderful start, but by this time it's outdated
21:49 eric256 so how does  'ab*|c' ~~ /<p6rule>/ generate and object anyway?  and does that mean we can make rules that build objects somehow?
21:49 gaal I should just map ^Aa to alt-tab or something. or better, raise the shell window.
21:50 autrijus eric256: yes and yes.
21:50 autrijus it generates and object by running PGE in parrot land, which yields parrot objects, which are serialized, which are then imported to pugs land
21:50 gaal autrijus: what's outdated?
21:50 autrijus gaal: docs/class/
21:50 gaal ah
21:50 autrijus eric256: however we are currently only treating parrot objects as hash
21:50 autrijus which is just as well -- we don't yet have obj meth call support in embed anyway
21:51 rafl eric256: Yes, that's what I mean. Where are those scripts?
21:51 autrijus fortunately, pmichaud's design has it so all attributes are straight data
21:51 autrijus so it's not that hard to walk the generated hash
21:52 rafl eric256: We don't need to use the packages if you don't like that, but fresh packages for Debian every 15mins are a good thing though.
21:52 autrijus eric256: to write a rule that builds object, write a method that returns objects -- but this requires either a working parrot embedding with objcall support (like we did for p5)
21:52 autrijus or a working parrot target backend (which depends on lexpad)
21:52 autrijus or porting PGE to perl6
21:52 autrijus (or to hs, that is)
21:52 eric256 ralf that would be fine i think. as long as they don't take too long to build.  its on feather at /home/eric256/auto  
21:53 autrijus all are interesting directions, but I'll do them after OO/PIL2 :)
21:53 rafl eric256: They take approximately as long as a normal build and install plus some seconds to put everything in packages and install them.
21:53 eric256 autrijus...sounds cool . like we'll be able to right a dataformat rule and just matching it will build the object or hash at least
21:54 autrijus eric256: yes. although with rules alone you can only build object trees, not walk or transform them
21:55 eric256 still sounds cool. alot different than just straigh old regexp
21:55 lisppaste3 has joined #perl6
21:56 autrijus to do the walk/transform part, luqui ported the hs UUAG system to perl5 on CPAN as Language::AttributeGrammar -- he also started porting it to p6, and allison ported it to parrot
21:56 autrijus to me, as an avid XML::Twig user, AG feels like Anything::Twig ;)
21:56 eric256 ?eval 'ab*|c' ~~ /<p6rule>/
21:56 evalbot_7859 Error: cannot cast from VUndef to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
21:56 eric256 why is that error different than the interactive one?
21:56 autrijus ?eval 1 ~~ 2
21:56 evalbot_7859 bool::false
21:57 autrijus ?eval 1 ~~ //
21:57 evalbot_7859 Error: cannot cast from VUndef to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
21:57 autrijus ?eval 1 ~~ m:p5//
21:57 evalbot_7859 pugs: *** cannot cast from VUndef to Handle (VHandle)     at Prelude.pm line 197, column 24-45        Prelude.pm line 221, column 13-25        Prelude.pm line 278, column 5-54        Prelude.pm line 61, column 30-59
21:57 autrijus ?eval 1 ~~ m:p5://
21:57 evalbot_7859 Error:  unexpected ":" expecting word character, block construct, term postfix, operator, ">>=:=<<", ">>eqv<<", ">>!=<<", ">>==<<", ">><=<<", ">>>=<<", ">>~~<<", ">>!~<<", ">>eq<<", ">>ne<<", ">>lt<<", ">>le<<", ">>gt<<", ">>ge<<", ">><<<", ">>><<", "\187=:=\171", "\187eqv\171", "\187!=\171", "\187==\171", "\187<=\171", "\187>=\171", "\187~~\171", "\187!~\171", "\187eq\171", "\187ne\171", "\187lt\171", "\187le\171", "\187gt\171", "\187ge\171", "\18
21:57 autrijus sigh
21:57 autrijus I think the rx_ macros putter made in Prelude.pm is somehow not working in evalbot
21:57 autrijus it seems to be an evalbot thing not a pugs thing
21:57 eric256 how do i tell if it has parrot linked (or whatever you call it)
21:58 autrijus you can use ldd
21:58 eric256 autrijus i get the same error on the command line in interactive mode
21:58 autrijus but either way should work -- we don't really need embed parrot
21:58 eric256 ohh you just need it in the path while running..i  though i needed it in the path while building
21:59 eric256 parrot executable is in the path on feather
22:00 eric256 whooo... feather pugs is at 7755...100 commits behind?
22:00 eric256 ?eval $?PUGS_VERSION
22:00 evalbot_7859 \"Perl6 User\'s Golfing System, version 6.2.10, October 10, 2005 (r7859)"
22:00 rafl autrijus: Do we have an svk mirror parrot on feather?
22:01 autrijus rafl: we do
22:01 autrijus see http://perlcabal.org/~autrijus/
22:01 rafl "Let me know if you'd also like mirrors for ponie, perl 6 design repo, and/or parrot."
22:01 autrijus er sorry.
22:02 autrijus p6 design repo is //mirror/p6
22:02 autrijus I don't think we have parrot, no. maybe just use svn for that?
22:03 eric256 eval bot isn't running the general pugs build on feather../me goes to investigate
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22:03 rafl I think it would be useful to have a parrot mirror. Some users have parrot svn copies in their homes.
22:04 autrijus okay.
22:04 eric256 hmm svk on it locked for somereason
22:04 autrijus I'll set one up
22:04 rafl autrijus: 4 as far as I see. I'd be the 5th.
22:04 autrijus eric256: sync.pl updates every 60 secs
22:04 rafl autrijus: Thanks.
22:06 eric256 autrijus: on the autobuild co svk said locked, i had to do svk cleanup, now it should work
22:06 autrijus that's fine... I'm downloading parrot svk boot
22:06 autrijus eta 2min -- brb
22:10 * eric256 just realizes...does that mean i could pass a perl6 file to that rule and get something cool and usefull back?
22:10 Juerd Poll:
22:10 Juerd Given an email link and a contact form, which would you use?
22:11 liz6 s/and/or/ ?
22:11 eric256 contact form
22:11 Juerd liz6: No, both are an option
22:11 * eric256 hates email links because they always open outlook instead of gmail.. ;)
22:12 Juerd eric256: ...
22:12 Juerd eric256: Get Firefox and the extension that uses gmail for mailto: links
22:12 Juerd Your vote is counted regardless, though :)
22:12 liz6 contact form
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22:13 eric256 i especial hate when they are label "contact us" but its an email link
22:13 liz6 eric256: agree
22:13 Juerd Okay, thanks for your votes. Any specific reasons?
22:13 Juerd Why does a contact form feel better?
22:13 liz6 because it will guide you in your question
22:13 liz6 and feels more "professional" to me...
22:15 eric256 i just don't like having my browser open an external program without asking.. and like liz is suggesting when it does i just stare at it with no idea what exatcly to say (most the time).
22:15 Juerd It's funny, though, that most people say they prefer contact forms (I don't), while in my own experimentation, I've received more feedback providing just an email address.
22:15 eric256 of course maybe thats a problem with my browser and not the link. dunno. ;)
22:15 rafl eric256: Why aren't the pugs modules installed on feather?
22:15 eric256 pugs modules?
22:16 Juerd rafl: Just the binaries are copied.
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22:16 liz6 juerd: providing an email address is always good
22:16 eric256 providing an email adress.. and proving a mailto: linke are differnt, i don't mind the former
22:17 Juerd liz6: Certainly. But the question here was which one you'd use, if both options were present.
22:17 gaal Juerd: I always prefer an email, which I use with my mail client to send the message. This way I have a copy for future reference.
22:17 Juerd So far, it's almost 50/50 across channels
22:17 rafl eric256: FindBin.pm, etc.
22:17 rafl Juerd: I know. I want to know the reason for that.
22:17 Juerd So I think it's safe to say that anyone who has a professional website should have both.
22:17 autrijus eric256: you can, once we transcribe Pugs.Parser into something PGE understands
22:17 Juerd rafl: I didn't want to pollute the system without packages
22:17 eric256 Juerd: definitly
22:18 liz6 juerd: yep
22:18 autrijus eric256: although, pmichaud says he'll have the basic expressions done in a couple weeks
22:18 autrijus in which case you can do "'some p6' ~~ /<perl6>/'
22:18 eric256 oh so p6rule isn't complete yet?
22:18 autrijus p6rule is complete
22:18 autrijus but it only matches a "rule"
22:18 autrijus not a "perl 6 program"
22:18 Juerd rafl: The debian packages weren't there yet when I built this script. I'm sure that patches are welcome, but remember that it must be automated.
22:18 eric256 ohh.. /me thought p6rule = rule to parse p6
22:18 eric256 but that makes since
22:18 autrijus yeah, it's a bit confusing :)
22:19 dduncan so, unless there are any major commits pending in the next hour, I'll smoke the current Pugs now
22:19 Juerd Perl 6 Rules!
22:19 Juerd That alone sounds MUCH better than "Perl 6 Regexes!"
22:19 eric256 dduncan FYI... feather smokes every 6 hours
22:19 autrijus "Perl 5 already Regexed the world.  Perl 6 will Rule the world"
22:19 dduncan is it a darwin box
22:20 rafl Juerd: OK.
22:20 eric256 nope ;)
22:20 dduncan then this isn't completely redundant
22:20 dduncan anyway, its possible that all the darwin smokes over the last couple weeks were me ... I've been doing it every 2 days or so, including last night
22:20 eric256 dduncan. definitly not. just wanted to make sure you knew. since it takes quite a while
22:20 Juerd rafl: eric256 can get sudo access to dpkg if needed
22:21 dduncan smoke takes about 50 mins on my machine
22:21 Juerd I have no idea how sudo would work non-interactively, though
22:21 dduncan now that it seems to be precompiling Test and/or using both cpus
22:21 dduncan before that, it took about 100 mins
22:21 eric256 both cpus...show off
22:21 dduncan more likely its just the prelude though ...
22:22 rafl Juerd: It will. I don't use interactive questions using debconf or somethng like that. Even if I would it could be told to use the defaults and not to ask.
22:22 rafl Juerd: I only need to wait for the parrot mirror..
22:22 dduncan last I checked, despite setting number of CPUs to 2 in the config, top only showed a single Pugs running at once
22:22 dduncan I will recheck that now
22:23 dduncan right, it is smoking now ...
22:23 dduncan and top shows two perl processes but only a single pugs process running
22:24 dduncan is setting cpus to 2 in the config supposed to do 2 pugs processes?
22:24 svnbot6 r7860 | rafl++ |  r19238@ata:  rafl | 2005-11-05 23:21:11 +0100
22:24 svnbot6 r7860 | rafl++ |  * Debian: build-depend on libparrot-dev instead of libparrot$(SOVERSION)-dev to
22:24 svnbot6 r7860 | rafl++ |    have less work on new parrot releases.
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22:26 dduncan smoke killed and will restart ... not due to that commit though
22:26 dduncan but it will be included
22:27 rashakil has quit IRC ("Leaving")
22:29 dduncan I meant, when smoke_concurrent=2, are there supposed to be 2 pugs processes?
22:29 dduncan smoke begun again ...
22:29 liz6 has quit IRC ("User disconnected")
22:31 rafl Juerd: Hm. How can we install packages using sudo non-interactively?
22:31 Juerd rafl: That's for whoever wants to do it, to find out
22:31 r0nny_ rafl: sudo can be set up, not to ask for a password
22:32 Juerd r0nny_: That won't happen, though.
22:32 rafl Indeed.
22:32 Juerd rafl: An alternative is to use a suid binary, catered to a specific need, limited to a specific group.
22:32 rafl Juerd: How about allowing eric or me to use only 'dpkg -i' without a pw?
22:33 Juerd rafl: I wouldn't know how. If you do, make it happen :)
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22:39 rafl User_Alias AUTOBUILDERS = eric256, rafl \n Cmnd_Alias DEBINSTALL = dpkg -i \n AUTOBUILDERS ALL = DEBINSTALL should work
22:39 eric256 if regexs..i mean rules.. build these objects isn't that going to severly slow down the process?
22:39 rafl Juerd: Not sure if Cmnd_Aliases can have whitespaces
22:40 rafl Juerd: Oh, a NOPASSWD: DEBINSTALL at the end is missing.
22:40 rafl Juerd: Look at /usr/share/doc/sudo/examples/sudoers
22:48 svnbot6 r7861 | autrijus++ | * Work around PGE's bug in not grokking zero-width rules
22:48 svnbot6 r7861 | autrijus++ |   (reporte to p6[ic]), by special casing that // matches
22:48 svnbot6 r7861 | autrijus++ |   always at position 0 with length 0.  It's useful anyway
22:48 svnbot6 r7861 | autrijus++ |   because split(//, $string) can be fast without launching
22:48 svnbot6 r7861 | autrijus++ |   Parrot.
22:48 svnbot6 r7861 | autrijus++ | * Also, fix m:g// and m:P5:g// support so they won't loop
22:48 svnbot6 r7861 | autrijus++ |   on zero-width matches.  (Previously s:g// and s:P5:g//
22:48 svnbot6 r7861 | autrijus++ |   was fixed in the same fashion.)
22:50 autrijus (monthly release)++ # forces me to fix parrot interop bugs every month
22:53 eric256 has left
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22:54 Juerd rafl: No, sorry, I'm not really into looking at things right now. If you have root access and can make things happen, please do so. I'll learn what you did when you've done it
22:54 rafl Juerd: OK.
22:57 autrijus rafl: svk ls /parrot/mirror/trunk
22:57 autrijus of course, you need to cp or ln-s ~autrijus/config to your ~/.svk/
23:02 rafl autrijus: Thank you.
23:04 * rafl installed parrot Debian packages and removes /usr/local/bin/parrot if there are no objections.
23:07 rafl autrijus: /parrot/mirror/truk
23:08 rafl autrijus: Err. path /parrot/mirror/trunk does not exist.
23:08 rafl D'OH. Typo.
23:08 autrijus ...
23:08 autrijus :)
23:24 rafl pugs depend on drift now, doesn't it?
23:26 autrijus no it does not.
23:26 rafl autrijus: This happens on svk pull when using your svk mirror, btw for parrot or pugs: Permission denied: Can't open '/home/autrijus/.svk/parrot/db/revprops/9765.tmp': Permission denied
23:26 autrijus rafl: fixing
23:26 Juerd autrijus: What do you use tcpxd for?
23:26 autrijus Juerd: SubEthaEdit
23:27 Juerd ok
23:27 autrijus Juerd: see://perlcabal.org/ works iff that happens
23:27 autrijus so I leave it running
23:27 Juerd I can't run mac osx inside linux for some reason
23:27 Juerd And my new Linux installation is so shiny and stable that I don't want to reset the uptime :)
23:29 autrijus we can do gobby instead :)
23:29 autrijus which only requires one single port
23:29 autrijus much easier to forward
23:29 Juerd Oh, I don't mind about the tcpxds
23:29 Juerd Just wondered
23:29 Juerd What is gobby?
23:30 autrijus subethaedit for gtk that works.
23:30 lisppaste3 has quit IRC ("Want lisppaste3 in your channel? Email chandler AT unmutual.info.")
23:30 autrijus gobby.0x539.de
23:30 lisppaste3 has joined #perl6
23:30 autrijus ?eval 0x539
23:30 evalbot_7861 1337
23:30 autrijus ;)
23:30 Juerd Is it not compatible with see?
23:30 autrijus no, because see shuffles serialized objc objects
23:31 autrijus or was it cocoa objects.
23:31 Juerd Ah
23:31 Juerd Are there reasons to stick to see?
23:31 Juerd It's a bit platform limited :)
23:32 autrijus well, for one, see has cursor highlighting in scrollbar and edit area
23:32 rafl autrijus: I get this error when running /usr/bin/perl -Iinc util/drift.pl src/Pugs/PIL2.hs-drift > src/Pugs/PIL2.hs:
23:32 autrijus for another, gobby/osx is very hard to build
23:32 rafl runhugs: Error occurred
23:32 rafl ERROR - Unable to open file "/home/rafl/autobuild/pugs/ut​il/../../DrIFT/src/DrIFT.hs"
23:32 autrijus rafl: svk up
23:32 autrijus r7862 should cure that
23:32 Juerd autrijus: Ok
23:32 autrijus also, permission problem should be fixed now
23:35 rafl autrijus: Works, thanks.
23:35 svnbot6 r7862 | autrijus++ | * regen PIL1/PIL2 using latest DriFT.
23:37 autrijus cool
23:38 * autrijus discovers properly idented AST tree is a good way to inflate journal's length
23:38 autrijus (just posted today's)
23:39 evalbot_7861 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
23:40 * autrijus praises caffeine-free sugar-free coke
23:40 autrijus I wish they have that in taiwan :)
23:40 evalbot_7862 has joined #perl6
23:41 svnbot6 r7863 | autrijus++ | * VICTUALS: note that caffeine-free diet coke is preferred
23:41 svnbot6 r7863 | autrijus++ |   over caffeineful ones for me.
23:43 geoffb . . . known as 'CFDC' amongst those overwhelmed by so many coke variants (I can currently think of nearly a dozen variants . . . and I may be missing some)
23:47 evalbot_7862 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
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23:51 rafl feather is soo slow currently.. :-(
23:52 rafl autrijus' darcs and eric's ghc are stealing both cpu power and memory from me.. :-)
23:52 svnbot6 r7864 | autrijus++ | * When generating precompiled prelude, strip away comments
23:52 svnbot6 r7864 | autrijus++ |   and doc sections while preserving number to speed up parsing.
23:53 autrijus rafl: renice :)
23:54 evalbot_7863 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
23:54 rafl I thought about apt-get install slay :-)
23:54 autrijus oh wow, very useful bofh tool
23:54 rafl Indeed. One of my favourites..
23:55 geoffb autrijus, in r7864 comment, did you mean "while preserving *line* number"?
23:55 * autrijus steps away, very slowly, from rafl
23:55 geoffb heh
23:55 evalbot_7864 has joined #perl6
23:55 autrijus geoffb: yes, oops
23:55 geoffb ok, cool.
23:57 autrijus brb, shower

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