Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-11-08

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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00:01 azuroth_t hmm
00:01 * azuroth_t is trying out feather's web-based IRC client. cool
00:02 Khisanth CGI:IRC?
00:02 azuroth_t I believe so
00:04 azuroth_t doh. somehow I wiped out all of src/Pugs/PIL2.hs
00:08 Khisanth ...
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00:08 Khisanth well at least reverting changes is trivial :)
00:09 azuroth_t yeah. I was wondering for a few days why it wasn't compiling - just thought to try reverting then
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00:20 azuroth_t ?eval my @a = (Int(4), Str("blah")); say @a;
00:20 evalbot_7905 Error: cannot cast from VObject (MkObject {objType = (mkType "Class"), objAttrs = <ref>, objOpaque = Nothing, objId = 17}) to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
00:21 azuroth_t err, stupid
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00:55 geoffb Anyone happen to know if there is a way to get use Perl journals from authors you are interested in to appear on the same page / in the same feed without declaring them friends?
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02:17 scook0 woo!
02:18 luqui woo?
02:22 scook0 oh, just finished exams this morning, so hopefully more time for Pugs stuff
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05:08 luqui ?eval +'0123'
05:08 evalbot_7905 0.0
05:10 svnbot6 r7906 | luqui++ | Fixed +'0123'  (used to return 0).
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05:11 luqui ?eval +'0123'
05:11 evalbot_7906 123.0
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05:36 jdv79 seen stevan
05:36 jabbot jdv79: stevan was seen 3 days 8 hours 23 minutes 12 seconds ago
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07:06 gaal liz6: ping
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08:34 gaal Yay, TaPL arrived.
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09:13 azuroth TaPL eh? *adds to read-list*
09:15 azuroth d'aw, safari doesn't seem to have ti
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10:49 renormalist Hi all!   Are there any german speaking people here? I'm looking for german Pugs enthusiasts who want to participate in the German Perlworkshop 2006, to establish a Pugs focus. Currently I only know of german speaking rafl and iblech.
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11:06 leo Hi renormalist - just answered the mail - I'll come to Bochum
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11:17 renormalist nize, thanks
11:17 r0nny_ re
11:18 azuroth fwd?
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11:30 svnbot6 r7907 | liz++ | Some more work on S17draft.pod: boy, is this hard to convey in English
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11:31 r0nny_ renormalist: i'm german
11:44 rafl r0nny_: Hello.
11:44 rafl Err.
11:44 rafl renormalist: Hello.
11:44 rafl renormalist: Got my mail WRT friday?
11:45 r0nny_ ;P
11:45 r0nny_ yo rafl
11:45 r0nny_ svk mirror ?
11:47 rafl Nothing new.
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12:31 sri_ renormalist: i'll be there too
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14:06 autrijus renormalist: I think I may be able to make to the Deutscher Perl workshop.
14:06 autrijus esp. good if iblech also manage to come :)
14:07 autrijus <- helsinki airport
14:08 Limbic_Region helsinki airport headed where?
14:08 Limbic_Region salutations btw
14:09 rafl autrijus++; # German Perl Workshop! :-)
14:09 autrijus headed to Zurich, then to Hong Kong, then to Taipei
14:09 * clkao waves at autrijus
14:09 * autrijus particles at clkao
14:09 rafl autrijus: wlan on the helsinki airport? I wasn't able to get connected there when I've been there the last time..
14:09 autrijus wlan with AP "homerun", though require payment
14:10 theorbtwo Autrijus: International man of hackery.
14:10 autrijus had a Very Long Conference with jhi and aevil last night
14:10 rafl I didn't care about payment when I was there. I was forced to wait 5 hours :-/
14:10 autrijus on unicode, cpan (a perl6/ directory in cpan coming up), community, releng, and more
14:12 rafl autrijus: Only a perl6 directory which doesn't differ much from the rest of cpan beside there live perl6 modules or will some changes that were proposed by S22 be implemented?
14:12 autrijus rafl: a new indexer.
14:12 autrijus idea is when you upload to PAUSE it can shuffle the module into diff. dirs
14:12 autrijus by the "language" part in the long name
14:13 autrijus so perl5:DBI goes to orig perl5 dir
14:13 autrijus perl6:DBI (implicit on a p6 "module DBI") goes to perl6
14:13 autrijus and to be indexed separatedly according to static analysis and multiversioning specs
14:13 rafl But ot the dists/ + pool/ structure?
14:14 autrijus pool?
14:14 autrijus (mm boarding calls)
14:15 autrijus I'll write up more about what aevil/jhi and me tlaked about in journal... I've jotted things in analog dead trees
14:15 autrijus and got a wonderful "Unicode Demystified" book from jhi
14:15 autrijus so I'm happy -- but gotta run now
14:15 * autrijus waves &
14:16 autrijus will try to pingback from the zurich airport ;)
14:17 stevan enjoy your flight autrijus
14:17 autrijus thanks :) &
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14:39 nothingmuch http://www.garg.com/jim/anime_laws6.0.html
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15:47 renormalist autrijus: It would be veeeeery nize, if you would come to the workshop.
15:48 renormalist sri_: sorry for late reading. It would be nize if you would come to the perlworkshop. Do you plan a talk?
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15:56 gaal any language folks about?
15:56 * renormalist brb in 1h
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15:57 gaal why can't we give instance variables default values right in the C<has> declaration?
15:57 gaal class Jabberwock; has $.claws = "catch"
15:59 gaal Oh, I see in S12 that in roles that's valid. Won't it be useful in general too?
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16:45 gaal what's the latest spelling of the default invocant? "self" with no sigil?
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16:48 * sili saw something about a $?SELF, but has no idea what it is
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16:50 PerlJam gaal: aye.
16:51 sili PerlJam: what's $?SELF ?
16:51 PerlJam $?SELF and self are both in the "spec"  
16:51 sili hmm.
16:51 PerlJam sili: it's the current invocant.
16:52 PerlJam Though the spelling may change soon.  $Larry made some rumblings about unifying $?vars and $=vars
16:52 sili what's the difference?
16:53 gaal PerlJam: thanks. S12 on dev.perl.org is old!
16:54 PerlJam $=vars were PODish and $?vars were stuff you knew at compile time.  Since that's basically the same thing, $Larry was talking about unifying them under $=vars so that the ? twigil could be free for other nefarious uses.
16:54 gaal what, you mean i can't do documentation that changes at runtime? :-p
16:54 PerlJam gaal: aye. The synopses need updating.
16:57 gaal hmm, and in-class method calls, are they now self.othermeth?
16:57 gaal or would othermeth suffice?
16:58 PerlJam .othermeth or self.othermeth
16:58 PerlJam or $?SELF.othermeth
16:58 gaal no, .othermeth is sometimes $_.othermeth
16:58 gaal s/sometimes//
16:58 PerlJam no, .othermeth is *always* $_.othermeth.  It's just that sometimes $_ is the invocant :)
16:58 gaal yeah.
16:59 sili wha? so sub foo {$_ is self ?}
16:59 gaal until assigned differently, yes. $_ is thankfully lexical now
16:59 theorbtwo ?eval class foo { method bar { } }; foo.bar
17:00 evalbot_7907 undef
17:00 theorbtwo ?eval class foo { method bar { } }; &foo::bar
17:00 evalbot_7907 \sub {...}
17:00 theorbtwo Oy.
17:00 * theorbtwo doesn't remember the method of Method (or whatever it's called) to get the prototype.
17:00 theorbtwo (Or even if there is one, come to think of it...)
17:01 gaal i doubt there's one in pugs now. dunno about the spec.
17:01 gaal there is .arity...
17:01 gaal fwiw.
17:02 PerlJam theorbtwo: .prototype or .signature probably
17:02 theorbtwo ?eval class foo { method bar { } }; &foo::bar.prototype
17:02 evalbot_7907 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&prototype"
17:02 theorbtwo ?eval class foo { method bar { } }; &foo::bar.signature
17:02 evalbot_7907 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&signature"
17:02 theorbtwo gaal: I know about arity (I wrote it), but that isn't very helpful here.
17:03 gaal theorbtwo: what are you trying to do?
17:03 theorbtwo Find the default name of the invocant by asking.
17:03 theorbtwo Twas just a silly idea.
17:04 gaal ahhhhh well i doubt that could even work, because it's likely folded in during paring.
17:04 gaal parsing
17:04 gaal brb # tea
17:05 renormalist ?eval say "Hello";
17:05 evalbot_7907 Hello bool::true
17:06 justatheory has quit IRC ()
17:06 PerlJam gaal: depends on when you ask.
17:06 PerlJam If you asked at compile-time, just after static analysis you should get a reasonable answer.
17:06 renormalist ?eval "aaa" ~~ "aaa";
17:06 evalbot_7907 bool::true
17:07 renormalist ?eval "aaa" ~~ rx/aaa/;
17:07 evalbot_7907 *** Cannot parse PGE: :w::aaa *** Error: end of file Match.new(   ok => bool::false,    from => 0,    to => 0,    str => "",    sub_pos => (),    sub_named => {} )
17:07 renormalist ?eval "aaa" ~~ rx:perl5/aaa/;
17:07 evalbot_7907 Match.new(   ok => bool::true,    from => 0,    to => 3,    str => "aaa",    sub_pos => (),    sub_named => {} )
17:08 gaal PerlJam: who is this information useful for?
17:09 gaal the only place it might conceivably be usa*ble* is inside the method itself
17:09 Juerd renormalist: Please find a pugs interpreter :)
17:09 PerlJam gaal: I don't know, it was theorbtwo's idea :)
17:09 renormalist Juerd: I have one, I just try out this channels eval thing.
17:09 Juerd renormalist: Okay.
17:09 renormalist Juerd: :-)
17:10 Juerd renormalist: It's meant for helping in conversation, though
17:10 Juerd To illustrate a point
17:10 renormalist Juerd: ah, ok
17:10 theorbtwo My idea is that it'd be useful for automagic documentation.
17:10 justatheory has joined #perl6
17:10 PerlJam yeah,  I was wondering if you were pointing out that PGE was broken  :)
17:10 gaal and to impress visitors. don't forget that.
17:10 Juerd PerlJam: So was I
17:11 PerlJam theorbtwo: perl6's introspection will be tremendously useful for automagic docs.
17:11 PerlJam theorbtwo: but only in documenting "what we already know" in some sense.
17:12 PerlJam (where "we" are the programmers actually looking at the code)
17:12 Juerd I think signatures will prove very useful in documentation.
17:12 Juerd Usage information so concise, and because of variable names even documenting, that the full description will often not even be needed.
17:13 gaal yeah, Poogle anyone?
17:13 Juerd Eh, that reading it will often not be needed.
17:13 Juerd It does have to exist, of course :)
17:13 Juerd gaal: Sounds cute :)
17:14 Juerd Though I'd prefer a php.net-like system
17:14 Juerd php.net/keywoard
17:14 Juerd s/oa/o/
17:14 theorbtwo Also sounds like a trademark lawsuit waiting to happen.
17:14 Juerd I made something like it for Perl, under tnx.nl
17:14 Juerd tnx.nl/print
17:14 Juerd tnx.nl/func
17:14 gaal theorbtwo: http://www.haskell.org/hoogle
17:14 Juerd tnx.nl/op,OO,requick,vars
17:14 gaal it's spectacularly usefule.
17:14 Juerd Really great on IRC.
17:14 gaal s/e\././
17:15 theorbtwo LOL:
17:15 gaal Juerd: hoogle is of course available on #haskell.
17:15 theorbtwo "Roses are red. Violets are blue. Google rocks. Homage to you.
17:15 gaal yeah, ndm++.
17:16 Juerd I like the thinkgeek "Roses are #ff0000 / Violets are #0000ff" shirt
17:17 Juerd The spare ribs delivery guy is late :(
17:17 Juerd HUNGRY
17:18 integral maybe he's still being marinaded? :)
17:19 Juerd He? :)
17:19 Juerd Eh :)
17:19 Juerd I think he's stuck in traffic.
17:19 Juerd Traffic's terrible here around this time.
17:19 Juerd And since this area is reachable only by car and by very brave people... :)
17:21 gaal getting back to the previous discussion: i don't see though, why doesn't "othermeth" Just Work like say in Java? is this on purpose to avoid confusion, or is there something preventing it from working?
17:22 gaal i know this is an oooold discussion - i'm not beating it, just trying to summarize the results.
17:26 PerlJam gaal: 1) how is the programmer to know it's a method?  2) how is perl to distinguish between methods and ordinary subs?
17:26 nnunley Java always has an object in context -- there are no global subs.
17:27 gaal PerlJam: 1 is quite a reasonable ergonomic point. 2 can be addressed similarly to how MMD questions are.
17:27 gaal but that's fair enough.
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18:06 rafl renormalist: Updates for friday?
18:07 nothingmuch has quit IRC ("leaving")
18:12 renormalist rafl: just sent you mail. Still dont know. I would like to come, but it collides with other things ...
18:16 hexmode` has joined #perl6
18:16 rafl renormalist: Would be great, though.
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18:23 gaal i'm waking up late, but Rules using <> as special symbols makes quick'n'dirty XML parsing a pain.
18:26 gaal anyone have a PGE-enabled pugs on feather?
18:26 gaal ..that works :)
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18:35 rafl gaal: Doesn't /usr/bin/parrot work?
18:38 rafl gaal: Please highlight me if it doesn't. I'll try to fix that later. I need to leave now.
18:46 gaal rafl: parrot -V runs, but all PGE matches via pugs fail.
18:46 gaal ?eval "moose" ~~ /m/
18:46 evalbot_7907 Error: cannot cast from VUndef to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
18:46 gaal ?eval say "ok" if "moose" ~~ /oo/
18:46 evalbot_7907 Error: cannot cast from VUndef to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
18:47 gaal rafl: that isn't the error I was getting from eric256's autopugs though.
18:47 gaal I got:
18:47 gaal *** Cannot parse PGE: (the rule I was using)
18:47 nnunley has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
18:47 gaal *** Error: end of file
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19:11 PerlJam gaal: work for me (with freshly compiled parrot+pugs)
19:15 gaal ath?
19:15 gaal path?
19:16 gaal oh, on your own box?
19:16 PerlJam yeah, on my own box.  Hold on a sec and I'll do it on feather.
19:16 PerlJam er, it might be a little more than a "sec"  :-)
19:16 gaal thanks (i'm trying to concentrate on writing so fixing anything that's not english is too distracting)
19:17 gaal that's okay :)
19:17 gaal actually maybe you can help me by just porting a regexp:
19:17 gaal #  rx:perl5{<description>(.+)</description>\s*</item>}
19:18 gaal is this going to be as ugly as i think it is on p6 rules?
19:18 PerlJam perhaps
19:19 PerlJam rx( <lt> description <gt> (.+) <lt> /description <gt> \s* <lt> /item )  # I think
19:19 PerlJam not sure if the <lt> <gt> rules are available in pugs/pge though
19:23 theorbtwo You can't just backwhack the angle brackets?
19:23 geoffb PerlJam, it's been a while, but isn't the \s* not necessary?  I thought rules defaulted to \s* between tokens?
19:23 * theorbtwo isn't big on rule-fu.
19:23 PerlJam geoffb: only when you use :w (:words)
19:23 geoffb Also, gaal, if you're using PerlJam's rule, he's missing a <gt> at the end.
19:24 geoffb PerlJam, hmmm . . . I thought that implied \s+ as opposed to \s*
19:24 PerlJam ah, so I am
19:24 PerlJam geoffb: no, :w implies \s* or \s+ depending on the location of the spaces in your rule (i.e. what's on either side of the space)
19:25 geoffb sigh
19:25 geoffb Perl certainly is like English . . . so much power, and SO messy
19:25 gaal PerlJam: thanks.
19:25 PerlJam theorbtwo: and, yes you can backwhack the angles if you so choose.
19:26 PerlJam geoffb: yep.  Fortunately for perl, the world is quite messy too.  That makes it easier to get a one-to-one correspondence between reality and your software.
19:26 geoffb :-)
19:26 gaal hmm. I want to call a method in the condition of a when clause. can't I?
19:27 gaal ?eval class X; method cc { 4 } my $o = X.new; given $o { when (.cc > 3) { say "ggg" } }
19:27 evalbot_7907 undef
19:27 geoffb autosave++  # At least Emacs has the decency to save your file before crashing . . . .
19:28 gaal whoa, which reminds me, ci time.
19:29 gaal that looks like a bug to me. anyone think different?
19:30 theorbtwo Certianly looks like a bug to me.
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19:34 svnbot6 r7908 | gaal++ | tpd.pod: two examples/, some stuff on junctions, and minor fixes.
19:35 evalbot_7908 has joined #perl6
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19:37 gaal anyone on OSX here?
19:38 * nothingmuch
19:38 gaal yo!
19:39 gaal Is there currently a Mac equivalent to "apt-get install pugs" now?
19:39 nothingmuch no
19:39 nothingmuch all solutions are third party (fink, darwin port, gentoo-osx)
19:39 nothingmuch and I doubt they have pugs
19:39 gaal s/one(currently, now).pick//
19:40 nothingmuch fink is apt-get ported
19:40 gaal okay: how does someone get pugs on a mac? i hope there are at least binaries for GHC yes? :)
19:40 nothingmuch it might be easy (i have no clue) to make rafl's stuff into there
19:40 nothingmuch yes, there are binaries
19:40 nothingmuch http://www.haskell.org/ghc/download_ghc_641.html
19:41 nothingmuch or you could use fink/darwinports for ghc
19:41 nothingmuch the .pkg file is easy though
19:41 gaal so: what's the n-liner to install pugs on a mac?
19:41 nothingmuch download, double click
19:41 nothingmuch double click GHC-6.4.1.pkg (it will unzip automatically, i think)
19:41 nothingmuch (perhaps it will even open automatically, bringing you into the installer)
19:41 nothingmuch (i don't remember)
19:42 gaal okay, and then cpan Perl6::Pugs in a shell yes?
19:42 nothingmuch click next/i agree/install repeatedly
19:42 nothingmuch yhes
19:42 nothingmuch well, no
19:42 nothingmuch sudo cpan
19:42 gaal yeah yeah
19:43 nothingmuch sudo is crucial - root does not have a password by default on OSX
19:43 nothingmuch i hate conscience games
19:43 nothingmuch dad is pissing me off
19:43 nothingmuch he said "do the dishes"
19:43 nothingmuch i jokingly said "every time you ask me i'll reset my counter
19:43 nothingmuch so he threw a fit, and then very dramatically did it himself
19:44 nothingmuch and I'm supposed to feel bad
19:44 gaal which counter?
19:44 nothingmuch the counter for in how many seconds it's going to take me to finish what i was in the middle of when he first asked me
19:44 nothingmuch wait, no, mom first asked me
19:45 * nothingmuch doesn't like when people try to manipulate him
19:45 gaal in that case resetting it is good, since that implies the job's finished ;-)
19:45 nothingmuch if he would have just asked it would have gotten done
19:45 nothingmuch but because I need to feel guilty while doing it...
19:47 gaal hey, anyone feel like a nice Parsec task?
19:47 gaal # http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.language/23996
19:47 gaal tests exist in t/oo/attributes/attribute_initializement.t
19:48 gaal xinming++
19:48 saorge_ has joined #perl6
19:49 * nothingmuch passes
19:49 nothingmuch Catalyst::Plugin::Authorization::ACL is nearly done
19:49 nothingmuch what an exodus that was
19:50 geoffb 40 days in the desert?
19:50 nothingmuch 3 days in the dispatcher ;-)
19:50 gaal heh
19:51 * gaal would not mind being in the desert now - I miss Sinai
19:51 * geoffb writing go-live push docs for $contract
19:51 geoffb Ah, the sweet smell of a nearing push
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20:02 Juerd dvoraks++  # both
20:04 nothingmuch Juerd: the composer and the engineer?
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20:15 Juerd nothingmuch: If "the engineer" is the guy who made this great keyboard layout... :)
20:16 nothingmuch that's what I meant
20:17 Juerd Then, yea.
20:23 saorge__ has joined #perl6
20:27 gaal anyone understand Larry's last p6l post? specifically, what does a public interface do to a private member?
20:32 svnbot6 r7909 | gaal++ | tpr.pod:
20:32 svnbot6 r7909 | gaal++ |  * change $: to $!
20:32 svnbot6 r7909 | gaal++ |  * "see also" section
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20:40 gaal nothingmuch: still there?
20:41 nothingmuch yep
20:41 gaal # http://haskell.org/ghc/download_ghc_641.html#macosx
20:41 gaal the very bottom says that ghc is available on darwinports
20:41 gaal does that mean if you install from there you build your own ghc?
20:42 gaal like on a freebsd system?
20:42 gaal "The compiler is built from source, using a binary bootstrap compilier" -> built on your machine?
20:43 nothingmuch i don't know
20:43 nothingmuch i think so
20:43 gaal ah, you mentioned that port above, didn't notice
20:43 nothingmuch but i don't use darwinports, so I have no clue
20:43 gaal ok thanks.
20:43 nothingmuch the pkg file is binary though
20:43 nothingmuch i use it happily
20:43 gaal yeah, that's good stuff.
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21:05 stevan nothingmuch: ping
21:09 * nothingmuch hides
21:10 stevan I see you behind that terminal window
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21:35 dduncan gaal, I noticed you updated tpr.pod in accordance with Larry's email on private attr syntax ... do you plan to update the parser too, or is the change not official?
21:41 justatheory has quit IRC ()
21:43 rafl gaal: Does it work for your pugs with PGE support?
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22:03 r0nny_ yo
22:04 rafl nothingmuch: I don't think Debian packages can be turned into fink packages that easily.
22:05 justatheory has joined #perl6
22:06 SamB gaal: I can tell you that you can't build GHC without GHC
22:08 SamB unless you are porting and build from .hc files generated by a cross-GHC
22:08 dduncan so that's why build ghc from source takes so long!\
22:10 dduncan on another note, I like that change from : to ! for private attrs; makes it look less like package qualification syntax
22:10 dduncan eg, $:foo vs $::foo
22:11 dduncan or $bar:foo vs $bar::foo
22:12 dduncan (of course, the :: used in this way may not be valid perl 6, but it still evokes packages in my mind)
22:12 nothingmuch rafl: even for something that doesn't compile?
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22:37 rafl nothingmuch: Err?
22:37 nothingmuch rafl: well, pugs is more portable than e.g. some_app
22:37 nothingmuch it works out of the box on OSX
22:38 nothingmuch so is the tricky stuff the releng for the paths and stuff?
22:38 rafl nothingmuch: I don't understand "even for something that doesn't compile?", though.
22:38 Amnesiac has joined #perl6
22:38 nothingmuch it was a brain fart
22:38 nothingmuch ignore it
22:40 rafl nothingmuch: AFAIK fink uses a single $package.info file to put all informations that are in debian/ for Debian packages in.
22:40 * nothingmuch knows nothing of either debian or fink ;-)
22:40 rafl So it's hard to convert from Debian to fink, imho.
22:40 nothingmuch (that deeply, that is)
22:40 nothingmuch ah, okay
22:40 nothingmuch so screw it =)
22:40 rafl I don't know much about fink as well.
22:41 rafl OK. I don't care about fink anyway as my ibook croaked some months ago.
22:41 rafl (And because I used Debian on it anyway :-)
22:42 elmex has quit IRC ("-schlaf-")
22:51 svnbot6 r7910 | liz++ | some more work on docs/AES/S17draft.pod
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23:26 stevan hey robkinyon
23:26 svnbot6 r7911 | stevan++ | Perl6::ObjectSpace -
23:26 svnbot6 r7911 | stevan++ | * adding return type checking for closure type
23:26 svnbot6 r7911 | stevan++ |    - added tests for this
23:26 robkinyon stevan: Yessssss?
23:27 stevan nothin
23:27 stevan just sayin hey
23:27 robkinyon oh.
23:27 robkinyon hey! :-)
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23:34 leo liz6: - Coros are _like_ processes (S17draft)
23:34 leo I seem to have a different view of Coros ;-)
23:35 leo specifically there are *no* threads involved
23:38 liz6 leo: not necessarily...
23:38 liz6 or maybe we do think of it differently...  ;-)
23:39 robkinyon How does Ruby do coros? they seem to have it down pretty well ...
23:39 * leo is thinking of coros of course parrot-wise
23:39 liz6 I'm still trying to come up with a use case...
23:40 leo this means that exactly one interpreter is running the main code and the coro
23:40 leo implying there is never a concurrency problem
23:40 liz6 can two threads call the same coroutine?
23:40 leo sure as they can call the same sub
23:41 leo *if* variables are share properly...
23:41 leo shared even
23:41 liz6 but the second tread would block until it has yielded to the first thread?
23:42 leo nope
23:42 leo the caller get's the result - no one else
23:43 liz6 yes:
23:43 leo coros aren's thread imho
23:43 liz6 (initially I thought the same, and maybe I'm seeing threads everywhere)
23:44 liz6 but I wonder if it wouldn't be possible to have a coro continue execution
23:44 liz6 until the next yield, so that another thread would get back the next result
23:44 liz6 immediately?
23:44 leo either the caller or the coro is running
23:45 leo all other things aren't cors but threads
23:45 leo coros
23:45 leo shit keyboard
23:46 liz6 hmmm...
23:46 liz6 could very well you're right...
23:46 leo because if there is any piece of concurrency the implementation (low-level) is different
23:46 liz6 it's been a long day with a lot of meetings and a lot of travel for me...
23:46 leo you can still call it coros of course
23:46 liz6 (yes)
23:47 leo but inside parrot or $other_machine these aren't coros anymore
23:49 liz6 well, we're talking language design here, so whether at a lower level something is a thread or a coro, doesn't matter much or does it?
23:49 leo no
23:49 liz6 I mean: autri and I have also discussed that detaching a thread
23:49 liz6 _could_ mean doing  a fork()
23:49 leo but coros which need threads per se are likely to be a lot slower
23:49 leo I would make any concurrency explicit in the syntax
23:49 liz6 well, maybe not all coros need threads
23:49 leo just my 2c
23:50 liz6 I'm just wondering how coros could not be thread aware...
23:50 liz6 if two threads call the same coro
23:50 liz6 one of the threads needs to block until the other has returned
23:50 leo do you now pthon generators?
23:50 leo python
23:50 liz6 I've heard of them...
23:50 liz6 but that basically means: no
23:50 liz6 ;-)
23:51 leo well, instead of blocking a thread the interpreter is just running the coro, then it continues in the caller
23:52 liz6 so the code inside a coro could be executed by two threads at the same time?
23:52 liz6 how would that work for an iterator?
23:53 leo there is no advantage here basically in using threads - except if you want threads because there is parallelism
23:54 leo iterators usually don't do much work, run a few opcodes .yield(result), ...
23:54 pdcawley has joined #perl6
23:54 liz6 well, you may well be right...
23:55 liz6 for some reason (and I'm too dense at the moment to be really able to explain why) it feels wrong not to include the possibility that coros can be threads as well
23:56 leo that's not the problem - some coros better can be threads - but please make this really explicit in syntax
23:56 liz6 working on that!
23:56 liz6 it's still a draft!
23:57 leo of course - and thanks for considering
23:57 liz6 no thanks... thank you for pointing out this issue...
23:59 liz6 anyways.. going to catch some shuteye...
23:59 liz6 night everyone!
23:59 leo yeah same here

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