Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-11-10

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 buu Heh, that's silly.
00:00 buu ?eval my @x = (0...);
00:00 evalbot_7917 pugs: out of memory (requested 1048576 bytes)
00:00 buu =[
00:00 buu Stupid nonlazy pugz0r
00:00 mugwump ?eval my $x = [0...];
00:00 evalbot_7917 pugs: out of memory (requested 1048576 bytes)
00:00 mugwump ?eval my $x = (0...);
00:00 evalbot_7917 pugs: out of memory (requested 1048576 bytes)
00:00 mugwump :/
00:03 geoffb Lazy is implemented in the P5 backend, not in the Haskell backend (yet)
00:03 geoffb (Probably JS works too, knowing iblech)
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00:36 buu P5 back end?
00:37 wolverian pugs -h, see the -C argument
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06:33 SoHaN anyone alive to help me run perl scripts in windows xp?
06:33 obra SoHaN: you want #perlhelp or maybe #perl
06:37 SoHaN ok thanks :)
06:37 obra zkaia
06:37 obra mischan
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06:58 svnbot6 r7918 | Darren_Duncan++ |  r771@Darren-Duncans-Computer:  darrenduncan | 2005-11-09 22:55:47 -0800
06:58 svnbot6 r7918 | Darren_Duncan++ |  /ext/Rosetta-Incubator : updated Rosetta-Incubator collection version to 6.0.0 from 0.0.1, following Pugs' example; fixed bugs in Locale::KeyedText SYNOPSIS; removed 'use 5.008001' and 'use utf8' pragmas from Makefile.PL
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07:34 svnbot6 r7919 | Ovid++ | Added "Managing instance data" to cookbook.  Needs much
07:34 svnbot6 r7919 | Ovid++ | more work (as does all of the cookbook)
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08:50 gaal has anyone been working on "leave"?
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10:35 svnbot6 r7920 | Darren_Duncan++ |  r773@Darren-Duncans-Computer:  darrenduncan | 2005-11-10 02:31:48 -0800
10:35 svnbot6 r7920 | Darren_Duncan++ |  /ext/Rosetta-Incubator : added new file /docs/Copying which outlines my copyright related intentions for Rosetta
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11:59 cognominal_ ?eval rx |a|
11:59 evalbot_7920 {rule}
12:00 cognominal_ ?eval rx|a|
12:00 evalbot_7920 {rule}
12:00 cognominal_ ?eval ref rx|a|
12:00 evalbot_7920 ::Pugs::Internals::VRule
12:00 cognominal_ ?eval my $a. ref \$a
12:00 evalbot_7920 Error:  unexpected "." expecting word character, "::", trait, "=", ".=", ":=", "::=", ";" or end of input
12:00 cognominal_ ?eval my $a; say  ref \$a
12:00 evalbot_7920 Scalar bool::true
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12:22 gaal ?eval given <a b> { when {.join eq "ab"} { say "closure smartmatch" } }
12:22 evalbot_7920 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&when"
12:22 gaal ?eval given <a b> { when -> {.join eq "ab"} { say "closure smartmatch" } }
12:22 evalbot_7920 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&when"
12:54 svnbot6 r7921 | iblech++ | * Usual svn props.
12:54 svnbot6 r7921 | iblech++ | * examples/cookbook/13classes-objects-and-ties/13-03managing-instance-data.p6:
12:54 svnbot6 r7921 | iblech++ |   Fixed the declaration of &length --
12:54 svnbot6 r7921 | iblech++ |     multi method length ($self: $new_length) {...}
12:54 svnbot6 r7921 | iblech++ |     multi method length ($self:)             {...return length...}
12:54 svnbot6 r7921 | iblech++ |     # These declaration do *not* allow lvalue access, i.e.
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12:54 svnbot6 r7921 | iblech++ |     $foo.length = 42;  # is invalid.
12:54 svnbot6 r7921 | iblech++ |   Instead, you've to use Proxy.
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12:59 wolverian what's wrong with 'has'? :)
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13:24 Limbic_Region anyone know what's up with use.perl journals ???
13:34 kolibrie I get connection refused
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13:40 xinming maybe sys-admin happened to type reboot. :-)
13:48 Limbic_Region oh, I can connect - but the link to journals returns the main page and if you attempt to go to a specific users journal it is completely blank
13:48 Limbic_Region oh wait, now I can't connect at all
13:50 xinming It seems that the system is down, for maintance?
13:54 Limbic_Region dunno
13:54 * Limbic_Region doesn't know where pudge hangs out online
14:00 broquaint #perl on irc.perl.org, but he's not about atm.
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14:08 Limbic_Region oh, well it looks like the site is undergoing changes
14:08 Limbic_Region I have just now been able to get to the journals but not by normal paths
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15:55 gaal could someone explain the deal with the Proxy, eg. in the last commit? Why isn't `has $.length` sufficient?
15:56 * eric256 backlogs
15:56 eric256 it just says that the way they defined it you can't use it as an lvalue
15:57 eric256 i dunno why they defined it like that though. ;)
15:58 eric256 looks like the example has just been slowly mutated. probably adding some checks to it would make it make more sense.
15:59 eric256 do those cook book examples make directly to the original book?
15:59 gaal when is Proxy actually to be used at all?
15:59 eric256 when you want an lvalue that you can verify the value you are setting
15:59 eric256 int this case you might not want to allow negative lengths ;)  or require length to be an Int and not a Float
16:00 wolverian eh
16:00 wolverian I thought: has $.foo where { ... }; worked
16:00 wolverian maybe I remember wrong
16:01 gaal Int $.length; can help with the int requirement, although last i heard that'd do a coercion and not raise an error.
16:01 eric256 where can impose restrictions i think. but what if the object held a string and changing the length should affect the string? the you would need a proxy
16:01 gaal but: okay, i think i get it. :-)
16:01 eric256 the whole lvalue vrs getter/setter holy war aside
16:02 gaal I in general like to leave holy wars aside.
16:02 wolverian there is no holy war. only a bad perl5 implementation.
16:02 eric256 TIMTOWTDI
16:02 eric256 wolverian  there is definitly a war over lvalues, getters setters, and a single getter/setter of the same name. ;)
16:03 wolverian meh. not in perl6 and C#.
16:03 * eric256 has heard it argued that objects should never have properties...though i never understood that.
16:03 wolverian both use lvalue properties.
16:04 eric256 using and having them doesn't mean there isn't a raging debate about weather they should have them or should use them.  me though, the more options the better
16:05 wolverian anyone who uses .getFoo .setFoo in perl6 will be ridiculed. I hope.
16:05 wolverian it just doesn't make any sense when the language so strongly recommends .foo
16:05 svnbot6 r7922 | iblech++ | examples/cookbook/13classes-objects-and-ties/13-03managing-instance-data.p6:
16:05 svnbot6 r7922 | iblech++ | Clarified my XXX comment.
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16:06 eric256 see wolverian you have the makings of a relegious warrior on the topic yet!
16:06 wolverian I've just been coding java lately (university course)
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16:06 wolverian it might not make me religious, but it sure as hell makes me disgruntled.
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16:07 gaal hey, what does Code<> and Code<$> mean?
16:07 gaal Context: L<S04/"Smart matching">
16:07 gaal code with arity zero and one respectively?
16:08 wolverian the <>s are probably signatures, although they should be Code\() or Code:() nowadays
16:08 wolverian I think.
16:08 gaal okay, asking the list.
16:09 wolverian gaal++
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16:21 svnbot6 r7923 | kane++ |  r132@coke:  kane | 2005-11-10 17:19:19 +0100
16:21 svnbot6 r7923 | kane++ |  * document what .jib files are
16:21 svnbot6 r7924 | gaal++ | t/statements/given.t: add tests CODE matcherands
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16:22 gaal (I'm looking into when CODE in .hs now)
16:23 eric256 sweet ;)
16:25 eric256 hmmm does that mean that $obj ~~ { .test; .whatever} automaticaly topicalizes the lhs for that block? an obfu given $obj { .test; .whatever } ;)
16:30 gaal :)
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16:31 gaal no, just calls code($_) automatically if the code wants it.
16:31 gaal hey liz6
16:31 liz6 hey gaal
16:31 liz6 seen autrijus
16:31 jabbot liz6: autrijus was seen 22 hours 31 minutes 13 seconds ago
16:31 liz6 hmm...
16:31 eric256 that might be a record for autrijus
16:33 liz6 this could have been when autri was still in helsinki...
16:33 gaal he popped by to say hello from .tw
16:33 liz6 ah, ok
16:33 liz6 good to know autri is back...
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16:34 liz6 back to $work I'm afraid... ;-)
16:34 eric256 $work ~~ 'evil' ;)
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16:34 gaal App !Exp !(Maybe Exp) ![Exp] keeps confusing me
16:34 gaal the maybe is the invocant, yes?
16:35 * eric256 wonders if we could have > and  5 and << 10)
16:35 eric256 but i guess if  (5 < $x < 10)  is pretty cool
16:35 gaal is it ok to to call a regular sub with a NOthing invocant and one arg?
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16:41 gaal ok to import Pugs.Prim.Code into Pugs.Prim.Match or is that a layering violation?
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16:44 * eric256 stares at gaal for moment. lol
16:45 gaal eric256: it is perfectly natural behavior, i assure you, to procastinate about writing English by writing Haskell.
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16:59 gaal hey, is ghci still useful?
16:59 gaal or rather: hey, hasn't ghci become useless?
17:04 wolverian why was autrijus in helsinki, btw?
17:04 wolverian and why didn't I meet him? :)
17:07 gaal connection.
17:07 gaal i think
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17:10 wolverian ah, okay.
17:11 eric256 and  he doesn't like you!!! ;) j/k
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17:20 gaal anyone know a quick way to find the topic?
17:20 gaal $_ in .hs, not the channel topic :)
17:20 gaal oh, silly me, readVar "$_"
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17:27 gaal sweet, sweet words: Looks like 2 tests of 49 passed unexpectedly
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17:33 svnbot6 r7925 | gaal++ | * when CODE:
17:33 svnbot6 r7925 | gaal++ |   * given { when &sub { ... } } works for 0- and 1-arity subs.
17:33 svnbot6 r7925 | gaal++ |   * still TODO: when { bare closure }, as this requires parser tweaking.
17:33 svnbot6 r7925 | gaal++ |   * tests.
17:37 eric256 did you just fix the smart match operator?
17:38 gaal partly.
17:38 gaal working on another part.
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17:39 gaal $moose ~~ &somesub now works. this does *not* topicalize $moose at all, in fact it's ignored completely.
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17:40 gaal if somesub wants an arg, $_ will be it.
17:40 theorbtwo Blink... I thought topicalizing and setting $_ were the same thing.
17:41 theorbtwo ?eval $_='foo'; 'bar' ~~ sub {say $_}
17:41 evalbot_7925 Error: Can't modify constant item: VStr "perl6"
17:41 theorbtwo Huh?
17:42 gaal it doesn't set $_. it calls somesub with the current $_, which in a given block, happens to be the other matcherand.
17:43 gaal hmm!
17:44 geoffb oh, theorbtwo, dia turned out to work Just Fine for me . . . autrijus' suggestion of SQL::Translator looked cool, but output quite a mess.
17:44 geoffb Um, so, thanks theorbtwo .  :-)
17:46 theorbtwo Welcome.
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17:47 gaal ?eval sub x { say $^val } "moose" ~~ $x
17:47 evalbot_7925 Error: Undeclared variable: "$x"
17:47 gaal ?eval sub x { say $^val } "moose" ~~ &x
17:47 evalbot_7925 Error: Undeclared variable: "$^val"
17:47 gaal ?eval sub x ($val) { say $val } "moose" ~~ &x
17:47 evalbot_7925 perl6 bool::true
17:48 gaal ?eval $_ = 42; sub x ($val) { say $val } "moose" ~~ &x
17:48 evalbot_7925 Error: Can't modify constant item: VStr "perl6"
17:48 gaal where's THAT coming from?
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17:48 gaal sub x ($val) { say $val } given 42 { when &x { say "again" } }
17:49 gaal ?eval sub x ($val) { say $val } given 42 { when &x { say "again" } }
17:49 evalbot_7925 42 again bool::true
17:49 gaal obviously readVar wasn't enough :/
17:59 eric256 why not? that last test was perfect
17:59 gaal yes, but the straight smartmatch, which ought also work, by right, does not
18:00 gaal ?eval $_ = 42; sub x ($val) { say $val } "moose" ~~ &x
18:00 evalbot_7925 Error: Can't modify constant item: VStr "perl6"
18:00 eric256 ?eval $_ = 42; sub x ($val) { say $val }; "moose" ~~ &x
18:00 evalbot_7925 Error: Can't modify constant item: VStr "perl6"
18:00 gaal and I'm puzzled about that VStr "perl6". Where'd it come from?
18:00 * eric256 scratches his head. lol. that is interesting
18:01 wolverian ?eval say $_
18:01 evalbot_7925 perl6 bool::true
18:01 wolverian there you go :)
18:01 eric256 lol.
18:01 dada ?eval say
18:01 evalbot_7925 bool::true
18:01 wolverian ?eval $_
18:01 evalbot_7925 \"perl6"
18:01 eric256 ?eval $_ = 42; sub x ($val) { say $val }; given 42 { "moose" ~~ &x; }
18:01 evalbot_7925 Error: Can't modify constant item: VStr "perl6"
18:02 wolverian ?eval my $_ = 42; sub x ($val) { say $val }; given 42 { "moose" ~~ &x; }
18:02 evalbot_7925 42 bool::true
18:02 eric256 ?eval sub x ($val) { say $val }; given 42 { say $_; "moose" ~~ &x; }
18:02 evalbot_7925 42 42 bool::true
18:02 * eric256 can't find assignment of perl6 to $_ anywhere in source...odd
18:03 dada isn't it @ARGV[0] or some such?
18:03 dada err, $0 maybe
18:03 gaal ?eval $?PROGRAM_NAME
18:03 evalbot_7925 Error: Undeclared variable: "$?PROGRAM_NAME"
18:03 gaal ?eval $*PROGRAM_NAME
18:03 evalbot_7925 \undef
18:03 eric256 grep perl6 -r * turns up nothing looking like an assignment of perl6.
18:04 gaal yeah
18:04 eric256 its magic!
18:04 dada perl6 has a strong ego :-)
18:05 gaal anymoose, i'll ignore that for now and work on the bare closure thing :)
18:06 eric256 oddly say $_ on feather doesn't print perl6
18:06 eric256 could it actauly be evalbot's doing?
18:06 gaal not impossible! :)
18:07 gaal but it's also the unmodifiability of this that's weird
18:07 gaal ?eval $_
18:07 evalbot_7925 \"perl6"
18:07 gaal aaaahhh it isn't the smart match that's failing at all is it? it's the $_ being read only
18:07 gaal and me being thick.
18:07 * xinming wonders if there is a way to list all attributes for an instance
18:08 eric256 yea. lol
18:08 gaal yes, $obj.perl
18:08 eric256 sorry thought you were on that track already
18:08 xinming oops. forgot the .perl method. :-)
18:08 gaal ?eval class Foo; has $.paws; Foo.new(paws=>4).perl
18:08 evalbot_7925 "Foo.new((\"paws\" => 4),);"
18:09 * xinming loves perl more and more... :-P
18:09 cognominal_ ?eval my ($perl6, $needed, $possible); given $perl6 {   when $needed { 'dynamic' } when  $possible { 'static' } }
18:09 evalbot_7925 "dynamic"
18:09 cognominal_ :)
18:09 gaal ?eval { $_ = 42; sub x ($val) { say $val } "moose" ~~ &x}
18:09 evalbot_7925 Error: Can't modify constant item: VStr "perl6"
18:10 eric256 ?eval { my $_ = 42; sub x ($val) { say $val } "moose" ~~ &x}
18:10 evalbot_7925 42 bool::true
18:10 xinming Perl 6 rules the world.
18:10 eric256 no my so your still attatcking that weird $_ ;)
18:10 dada ?eval { $_ = 42; }
18:10 evalbot_7925 Error: Can't modify constant item: VStr "perl6"
18:11 gaal well, whatever, i'll just ignore this for now :)
18:11 xinming ?eval $_ is rw { $_ = 42 };
18:11 evalbot_7925 undef
18:11 gaal ruleCondPart can use some teasing apart
18:11 xinming ?eval { $_ is rw = 42 };
18:11 evalbot_7925 undef
18:11 eric256 anyone else try this localy?  i can't reproduce except on eval bot
18:12 eric256 ?eval eval { $_ }
18:12 evalbot_7925 "SubBlock(<anon>)"
18:12 cognominal_ hum, I wonder why it returned "dynamic"
18:12 gaal eric256: maybe look at the source for evalbot, i bet it does some sub {  } wrapping a la mod_perl
18:12 xinming eric256: in interactive shell, It seems that $_ is rw by default.
18:12 dada ?eval my $x; $x;
18:12 evalbot_7925 \undef
18:12 dada ?eval my $x; ?$x;
18:12 evalbot_7925 bool::false
18:13 dada ?eval my $x, $y; $x ~~ $y;
18:13 evalbot_7925 Error:  unexpected "," expecting word character, "::", trait, "=", ".=", ":=", "::=", ";" or end of input
18:13 dada ?eval my $x; my $y; $x ~~ $y;
18:13 evalbot_7925 bool::true
18:13 dada cognominal_: that's why, I suppose
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18:16 eric256 gaal... i have been looking at evalbot but i can't find where it could be doing that, unless eval bot is running different source code than whats in the repository
18:17 eric256 cognominal it reutrned dynamic because all your vars are undef, so the first one matches  ($perl = undef) ~~ ($dynamic = undef) == true
18:18 gaal hey, anyone know if there's a good reason why ruleGivenConstruct has
18:18 gaal topic <- ruleCondPart
18:18 gaal ? that looks like just some sneaky convenience
18:18 gaal because, well, the topic part in a given declaration is just an expression
18:20 cognominal_ dada: indeed
18:20 eric256 are you wondering why its not ruleExp (or whatever that is without looking at the source)
18:21 gaal or something like that, yes. i'm now adding blocks as an alternative to ruleCondPart, and am a little wary if it's used hackily by other thigns
18:22 eric256 are blocks acceptable in conditions?
18:22 eric256 if { } {} else {} seems wierd
18:22 gaal well, "moose" ~~ { .is_blue } uses ruleCondPart...
18:22 eric256 plus don't you want to add blocks to the when construct not given?  maybe /me should look at source before speaking more though
18:23 eric256 ahh
18:23 gaal i do, i do
18:23 gaal but i see ruleCondPart is used in all sorts of place.
18:23 gaal places
18:23 gaal maybe i'll add a rule just for when.
18:23 gaal i think this oughta be made to work too though:
18:24 gaal when -> ($x) { $x } {...}
18:24 gaal confusing, yes :/
18:24 eric256 yes... trying to make $x =:= $_ ?
18:25 gaal oh, never mind the content of the block :)
18:25 gaal i meant putting in a pointy for a closure for a when clause.
18:47 * eric256 got confused and thought you did
18:47 eric256 given -> ($x) {$x}  { ... }
18:47 eric256 which makes nooo sense. lol
18:48 eric256 yes pointy closurs on when blocks would be cool
18:56 gaal unfortunately just sticking either ruleBlock or ruleBlockLiteral to the alternatives in ruleCondPart doesn't make it work :-)
19:08 gaal oh, the things that amuse me
19:08 gaal the recent commit message showed up in the rss feed
19:08 gaal but &sub changed to ⊂
19:09 gaal hm, which my current font doesn't display.
19:09 gaal that's a subset symbol.
19:10 gaal something that amuses me less is that i'd forgoten some bread in the oven for 20 minutes at high heat :(
19:11 eric256 lol
19:11 gaal of course remembering the bread also reminded me i was hungry!
19:23 cognominal_ ?eval  my (Num $i, Int  $j);
19:23 evalbot_7925 Error:  unexpected "N" expecting variable name, "undef" or ")"
19:23 cognominal_ ?eval my Num $i
19:23 evalbot_7925 undef
19:23 cognominal_ ?eval my Int $j
19:23 evalbot_7925 undef
19:24 cognominal_ ?eval  my  Num ( $i,  $j);
19:24 evalbot_7925 undef
19:24 cognominal_ ?eval  my  int  ( $i,  $j);
19:24 evalbot_7925 undef
19:27 cognominal_ ?eval  my @a = [ 33, 44, 55]; my @b = @a[1,2]; say @b
19:27 evalbot_7925 bool::true
19:27 cognominal_ ?eval say @a
19:28 evalbot_7925 Error: Undeclared variable: "@a"
19:28 cognominal_ hum, I guest I got splicing wrong
19:30 cognominal_ ?eval  my @a = [ 33, 44, 55]; my @b = $a[1,2]; say @b
19:30 evalbot_7925 Error: Undeclared variable: "$a"
19:31 cognominal_ ?eval  my @a = [ 33, 44, 55]; my @b = @a[[1,2]]; say @b
19:31 evalbot_7925 Error:  unexpected "[" expecting word character, "::", term postfix, operator, ";" or end of input
19:43 Odin-LAP has joined #perl6
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19:44 justatheory has quit IRC ()
19:47 dada ?eval  my @a = [ 33, 44, 55]; my @b = @a[1,2]; @b
19:47 evalbot_7925 [undef, undef]
19:47 dada ?eval  my @a = (33, 44, 55); my @b = @a[1,2]; @b
19:47 evalbot_7925 [44, 55]
19:48 dada yup
19:48 dada ?eval  my @a = [33, 44, 55]; my @b = @a[0]; @b
19:48 evalbot_7925 [33, 44, 55]
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20:28 fglock has joined #perl6
20:42 cognominal_ ?eval my @a = [ 33. 444. 66]; say length @a
20:42 evalbot_7925 Error:  unexpected "[" expecting expression
20:42 cognominal_ ?eval my @a = [ 33, 444,  66]; say length @a
20:42 evalbot_7925 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&length"
20:43 cognominal_ ?eval my @a = [ 33, 444,  66]; my $a = @a; say $a
20:43 evalbot_7925 33 444 66 bool::true
20:43 obra seen autrijus
20:43 jabbot obra: autrijus was seen 1 days 2 hours 42 minutes 52 seconds ago
20:43 cognominal_ ?eval my @a = [ 33, 444,  66]; my $a = @a; say ref $a
20:43 evalbot_7925 Array bool::true
20:44 cognominal_ ?eval  my @a = [ 33, 44, 55]; my @b = @a.[1,2]; say @b
20:44 evalbot_7925 bool::true
20:44 cognominal_ ?eval  my @a = [ 33, 44, 55];  say @a[0]
20:44 evalbot_7925 334455 bool::true
20:45 cognominal_ ?eval  my @a = [ 33, 44, 55];  say @a.[0]
20:45 evalbot_7925 334455 bool::true
20:46 cognominal_ ?eval  my @a = [ 33, 44, 55];   @a.[0]
20:46 evalbot_7925 [33, 44, 55]
20:47 cognominal_ ?eval  my @a = ( 33, 44, 55);   @a.[0]
20:47 evalbot_7925 \33
20:47 cognominal_ ?eval  my @a = ( 33, 44, 55);   @a[0]
20:47 evalbot_7925 \33
21:00 Juerd Please use a real pugs :)
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21:10 DaGo has joined #perl6
21:11 dada ?eval my @a = [33, 444, 66]; elems @a
21:11 evalbot_7925 1
21:12 dada cognominal_: elems, not length
21:12 whiteg_ has quit IRC ()
21:13 cognominal_ yea, I badly need to reread the synopses...
21:15 azuroth or "+@a" I think
21:16 dduncan has joined #perl6
21:31 gaal @a in scalar context, in general.
21:31 wolverian gaal, numeric context.
21:32 gaal ?eval my @a = <a b c>; my $x = @a; $x
21:32 evalbot_7925 ["a", "b", "c"]
21:32 gaal ahem.
21:33 gaal ?eval my @a = <a b c>; my $x = scalar @a; $x # i wonder what this button does
21:33 evalbot_7925 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&scalar"
21:33 azuroth in string context it's like .join(" ") I think
21:33 gaal heh. i suppose a string context would concatenate?
21:34 gaal heh again.
21:35 gaal well, i'm off to read some more TaPL then zzzZZs. see ya &
21:35 azuroth night
21:52 liz6 has joined #perl6
21:54 dada has quit IRC ("the original is unfaithful to the translation -- J.L.Borges")
21:55 r0nny_ re
21:57 fglock hi all
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22:09 Juerd ? my @a = <a b c>; my $x = item @a; $x
22:09 Juerd eh
22:09 Juerd ?eval my @a = <a b c>; my $x = item @a; $x
22:09 evalbot_7925 ["a", "b", "c"]
22:10 sili what's item
22:10 Juerd scalar context was renamed to item context, mostly to avoid confusion between scalar context and Scalar context.
22:10 eric256 ?eval my @a = <a b c>; @a;
22:10 evalbot_7925 ["a", "b", "c"]
22:11 eric256 why would there be confusion between scalar and Scalar ?? :)
22:11 eric256 and what does item context do to an array?   not .pick which was my first guess
22:11 theorbtwo Refify, I assume.
22:12 eric256 ?eval my @a = <a b c>; scalar @a'
22:12 evalbot_7925 Error:  unexpected "'" expecting word character, "::", term postfix, operator, ":", ",", postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
22:12 eric256 ?eval my @a = <a b c>; scalar @a;
22:12 evalbot_7925 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&scalar"
22:12 eric256 ?eval my @a = <a b c>; ~@a;
22:12 evalbot_7925 "a b c"
22:12 Juerd eric256: Arrays and hashes return, in item context, a reference to themselves.
22:13 Juerd eric256: This is sometimes called "autoreferencing", which isn't actually very true.
22:13 eric256 are there words for ~, +, ?   ...juerd yes that makes sense i think.  just not dwim the first tiem, but from then on
22:13 Juerd There is a word for ?, not for ~ or +.
22:13 Juerd The word is "true". It's a bad, bad word, but english lacks a negation of "not".
22:14 eric256 true? instead of bool?
22:14 Juerd bool is already the name of a type.
22:14 theorbtwo In conversation, boolify, stringify, and nummify.
22:14 eric256 not is the negation of not.;) its not not cold outside
22:14 Juerd eric256: Dutch has the word "wel", which negates "niet" (not)
22:14 theorbtwo indeed.
22:15 eric256 hmmm.  true "1" == true "0"
22:15 theorbtwo if (indeed $obj) {...}
22:15 Juerd theorbtwo: Has been suggested, iirc.
22:15 theorbtwo I'm not at all surprised.
22:15 * eric256 lacks the brain power to even figure out what a negation of not would be
22:15 Juerd theorbtwo: I like it a lot better than "true", which I find misleading and looking like a sign of desperation.
22:15 theorbtwo BTW, somebody was looking for you on slashnet/#perlmonks earlier.
22:15 liz6 how abou "aye"
22:15 eric256 i am not suprised, i am indeed suprised, i am true surprised.  hmmm
22:16 Juerd liz6: "aye" works well as a term, but not as a prefix thing, I think. Just like "true".
22:16 theorbtwo I don't see why it needs a stringy name at all.
22:16 fglock has quit IRC ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
22:16 theorbtwo ...and I'd /much/ rather see true and false be names for the cannonical true and false values.
22:16 Juerd theorbtwo: Because it's a logical operator as well as a type caster.
22:16 Juerd theorbtwo: And we have high precedence and low precedence forms for those things.
22:17 eric256 yes if (?$test) {} reads easier than if (true $test)....maybe not easier. but harder to misunderstand
22:17 Juerd theorbtwo: The low precedence ones are words.
22:17 theorbtwo Sorry, they were looking for Juke, not Juerd -- I have a bad memory for names.
22:17 fglock has joined #perl6
22:17 theorbtwo Hmm.
22:17 Juerd eric256: In boolean context, it is completely redundant and I would advise against using it.
22:17 eric256 Juerd can you provide an example of the difference between + and ? in this thinking.  i'm finding all this hard to wrap my head around
22:18 liz6 how about "ack" ?
22:18 Juerd liz6: Tricky.
22:18 eric256 when is ? if not in bool context?
22:18 Juerd liz6: But my liking "indeed" much clouds judgement.
22:18 theorbtwo Thanks.
22:18 liz6 3 letters more!  ;-)
22:18 cognominal_ what is the syntax of the arithmetic if?
22:18 eric256 indeed it is
22:19 Juerd You'll only be using this in the RHS of assignment anyway! :)
22:19 eric256 cognomials...you mean trinary? my $x = $test ?? 1 !! 2;
22:19 cognominal_ I thought it was  $a ?? $b :: $c
22:19 theorbtwo eric256: my $knowntime = ?$time;
22:19 cognominal_ ok
22:19 eric256 :: became !!... which makes a certian kind of sense
22:19 cognominal_ thx eric256
22:19 Juerd cognominal_: No, :: is now !!, to better correspond to ? and !, which are "true" and "not"
22:19 fglock has quit IRC (Client Quit)
22:20 Juerd cognominal_: And to make parsing stuff with classes much easier.
22:20 Juerd cognominal_: The RHS of ?? is what is done when the expression is true, the RHS of !! is what is done when it is not.
22:20 Juerd (Oh god, that actually argues for "true")
22:20 theorbtwo So it does...
22:21 * liz6 wonders whether intelligent design is at work here...
22:21 Juerd Hahaha
22:22 Juerd Do note the lcfirst :)
22:22 liz6 ;-)
22:23 * theorbtwo would never have thought he'd "yey" Dover, PA of all places.
22:23 Juerd "Om de rest van de updates te installeren, moet u LiveUpdate nogmaals uitvoeren."
22:23 Juerd WTF?
22:24 Juerd Prutsers.
22:24 * theorbtwo wonders if babelfish does Dutch.
22:24 Juerd Het zij ze vergeven omdat ik vandaag bij Symantec heerlijke jus d'orange heb gekregen, maar anders was ik nu toch wel zo vreselijk verontwaardigd!
22:24 theorbtwo (Yes.)
22:26 * Juerd wonders if Babelfish makes sense of this :)
22:26 DaGo has quit IRC ()
22:26 theorbtwo More or less, except for "Prusters".
22:26 theorbtwo And jus d'orange, which I assume is actually french.
22:26 Juerd Perhaps because it's prutsers, not prusters.
22:27 theorbtwo They them forgive because I have today got d'orange at Symantec delicious gravy, but I had been differently incensed now nevertheless this way terribly!
22:27 Juerd It's French, yes. It means: orange juice.
22:27 liz6 jus d'orange => OJ
22:27 Juerd That translation's funny.
22:28 theorbtwo Doesn't get either, Juerd.
22:28 * Juerd can't even come up with a correct translation of prutser :)
22:28 Juerd liz6? :)
22:28 liz6 yes?
22:29 Juerd Do you happen to know a translation for prutser?
22:29 liz6 ah,
22:30 liz6 tinkerer according to the dictionary
22:30 Juerd Oh, that's a good one.
22:30 liz6 but that doesn't convey the negative connotations, I think...
22:30 Juerd Oh, then I've always read it wrong :)
22:30 Juerd       3: an unskilled person who tries to fix or mend [syn: {tinkerer}]
22:30 Juerd That does sound negative
22:31 Juerd Though it doesn't necessarily have to do with fixing or mending. Here, it's about creating.
22:31 liz6 tinkering charlatans?
22:31 Juerd Hehe
22:31 Juerd In this case, yea :)
22:32 Juerd Esp. considering the bar with free drinks :)
22:33 eric256 why does Symantec have delicious gravy?
22:33 Juerd No, orange juice
22:34 Juerd But the Dutch word "jus" (which is actually the French word "jus") doesn't quite mean the same as the French word "jus".
22:34 Juerd If that makes any sense at all.
22:34 Juerd "jus" in Dutch means gravy, except in French or drink context, then it means juice :)
22:34 eric256 sure. lol. jus translated to gravy then? but was meant in the frenche joice way?
22:35 eric256 lol
22:35 * eric256 still has no idea what the translation meant
22:35 eric256 you were mad at them, but then you got free orange juice so now you aren't as mad?
22:36 Juerd Sort of :)
22:36 liz6 except he got the OJ before he got mad, right?
22:37 Juerd Yes
22:37 Juerd So I actually didn't get mad :)
22:37 * Juerd so feels sorry for eric256's brain right now :)
22:38 Juerd Eh, s/so feels/{ $/.split.reverse.cat }/
22:38 Juerd Make that s/cat/join/
22:38 theorbtwo Does join with no non-invocant parameter join with ' '?
22:39 Juerd Yes.
22:39 Juerd Or, well, it should.
22:39 * theorbtwo nods.
22:39 Juerd I'm not entirely sure it's blessed.
22:39 Juerd If split defaults to ' ', then join should too.
22:39 * theorbtwo nods.
22:40 theorbtwo Though split doesn't exactly default to ' ', more like rx:p5/\s+/.
22:40 Juerd That is irrelevant.
22:41 Juerd We can't join on a regex meaningfully :)
22:41 Juerd See also the p6l thread "lists in string context"
22:41 * theorbtwo nodsnods.
22:42 eric256 split defaults to \s+ magic,   join defailts to '' not ' '
22:42 eric256 ?eval "hello".split.join
22:42 evalbot_7925 "hello"
22:42 eric256 ?eval "hello world".split.join
22:42 evalbot_7925 "helloworld"
22:43 Juerd Then join is wrong.
22:43 eric256 hehehe. i had that exact conversation with someone else the other day. ;) /me agrees
22:43 eric256 ~@a and @a.join should come out the same.  relativly
22:43 Juerd Indeed.
22:44 Juerd And cat should be &join.assuming(sep => '')
22:44 * eric256 considers making a bot to track eachs days most popular word. ;)
22:44 * theorbtwo suspects "the" and "and" will be front-runners.
22:44 eric256 theorbtwo what a buz killer ;)
22:45 Juerd There was a bot in one of Dutch channels I was in that would keep such statistics per user.
22:45 Juerd It turned out that the arrogant people indeed did use "ik" (I) much more often than others :)
22:45 cognominal_ ?eval  my @a = <a b>;  my $rx = rx| @a|;  say "a" ~~ $rx
22:45 evalbot_7925 *** Cannot parse PGE: :w:: @a *** Error: end of file  bool::true
22:45 * Juerd was one of them, unfortunately.
22:46 * theorbtwo lols at Juerd.
22:46 Juerd Oh, 8 minutes until food supply closes
22:46 Juerd brb
22:47 cognominal_ pugs>  my @a = <a b>;  my $rx = rx| @a|;  say "a" ~~ $rx
22:47 cognominal_ PackFile_unpack: Bytecode not valid for this interpreter: fingerprint mismatch
22:47 cognominal_ Parrot VM: Can't unpack packfile /usr/lib/parrot/runtime/library/PGE.pbc.
22:48 cognominal_ problem on feather apparently
22:48 eric256 yea
22:48 cognominal_ pugs>  my @a = <a b>;  my $rx = rx| @a|;  
22:48 cognominal_ oops
22:48 eric256 rafl broke it and i havn't seen him lately
22:48 cognominal_ ?eval  my @a = <a b>;  my $rx = rx| @a|;  
22:48 evalbot_7925 \{rule}
22:49 cognominal_ how come the bot behaves differently?
22:49 rafl eric256: Here I am.
22:49 eric256 differently than what? than feather? because whoever runs the bot runs there own build of pugs for some reason.
22:49 cognominal_ ok
22:50 eric256 rafl....PGE linkage/whatever borked
22:50 rafl eric256: Yes. I don't know why, though. Will investigate tomorrow.
22:50 eric256 evil debian packages!! ;)
22:51 rafl Eval broken parrot portability!
22:52 theorbtwo rafl: When parrot breaks compatability, under normal debianish rules, you should make a parrot(++$n) package.
22:52 theorbtwo I think...
22:52 theorbtwo And make them conflict if they cannot be done asside each-other.
22:53 theorbtwo OTOH, I think Parrot is sufficently betaish to ignore that and go with the "you get to keep both pieces" policy.
22:53 rafl theorbtwo: Err. I'll simply fix parrot and update the package.
22:53 rafl theorbtwo: Who to conflicting parrot packages?
22:54 cy_ has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
22:56 theorbtwo Umm?
22:56 Juerd re
22:56 eric256 that made as much sense as juerds rumbling about orange juice
22:57 eric256 $last.subst("rumbling", "rambling");
22:57 Juerd There and back in 10 minutes.
22:57 Juerd Wow.
22:58 Juerd Hm, does English lack positive words altogether?
22:58 Juerd "back", the direction, does it have an opposite?
22:58 Juerd I hope you like RPN or yodaspeak.
22:58 rafl forward?
22:58 eric256 forward? ;)
22:59 Juerd Hm, I guess :)
22:59 Juerd Though you wouldn't use that to describe a route?
22:59 eric256 or front if you mean a side.  indeed, some positive words have we.
22:59 eric256 if you are on a route you would be assumed to be going forward
23:00 eric256 you might say "continue down that street"
23:00 Juerd "forward" feels like the translation of "vooruit", not exactly that of "heen"
23:01 * eric256 considers says "bless you" to juerd
23:01 joepurl has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:01 Juerd It's Dutch, not a scandinavian language.
23:01 liz6 "there and back"
23:02 Juerd liz6: I started with that, but "there" doesn't quite cover uses of "heen" in Dutch. "heenreis"...
23:02 liz6 I think it does.
23:02 Juerd "terugreis" can be translated using "back"
23:02 liz6 hmmm... wonder what the Dutch translation of "The Hobbit" was...
23:02 Juerd Hehe :)
23:03 Juerd Some things should be left untranslated :)
23:03 Juerd And can be.
23:03 eric256 hmmm i wonder if you could teach a language by reading a book, then slowly translating portions of sentences and reread...repeat until entire book is in new language..... ;)
23:03 Odin-LAP Juerd: "Should"?
23:04 Juerd Odin-LAP: Your sentence incomplete.
23:04 Odin-LAP Juerd: Dunno. Tolkien said he liked the Icelandic translation better than the original texts. ;)
23:04 Odin-LAP (Of the Lord of the Rings, though, not the Hobbit...)
23:04 Odin-LAP eric256: There is a method based on that...
23:05 Juerd Original authors shouldn't be taken too seriously.
23:05 Odin-LAP eric256: Should be based on relatively easier texts, though.
23:05 Juerd (\lwall, perhaps)
23:05 Odin-LAP Says who?
23:05 Juerd Does your IRC client not show that?
23:06 Odin-LAP Take nothing seriously. Turn everything into a joke.
23:06 Juerd I guess that makes judging what is said rather than who says it easier, but it completely destroys the social aspect.
23:07 Odin-LAP I'd suggest that the context is more important than the person.
23:07 Juerd If you'd suggest that, I'd agree.
23:07 theorbtwo English lacks the concept of a fully positive answer to a negitive question.
23:07 theorbtwo Or, rather, a short way of saying "I reject the premise of this question".
23:08 theorbtwo "Did you stop having sex with little children?"
23:08 Odin-LAP theorbtwo: What language has that?
23:08 Juerd Well, it has "Yes, it does!"
23:08 Odin-LAP theorbtwo: "I never did."
23:08 theorbtwo Odin: Say that in one word.
23:08 pdcawley has quit IRC ()
23:08 Juerd But that doesn't quite count, because the "it does" part holds the actual boolean value, not the "yes".
23:08 Odin-LAP theorbtwo: Why should I have to? Because you're obsessed with byte counts? :>
23:08 Juerd Odin-LAP: Think of a positive for "not" where "not" is the negative form.
23:09 Juerd That can be used in the same way: "I will not do that"
23:09 Juerd "I will <...> do that"
23:09 Odin-LAP Juerd: I *know* what you're talking about. I just don't think it's actually needed.
23:09 Juerd Odin-LAP: It's not needed. Otherwise English would have died already.
23:09 Juerd But it does kind of suck when in a programming language based on English, you need a negation of "not".
23:09 Odin-LAP That's like arguing chinese is useless, because they often have to combine words to transmit even simple ideas.
23:10 Odin-LAP That, however, is an entirely different matter. :p
23:10 Juerd No, stating that a language lacks a certain feature is not at all like arguing that a language is useless.
23:10 liz6 how about "way"
23:10 theorbtwo "way"?
23:10 liz6 (as opposed to "no way"
23:11 Juerd my $is_cool = way $cool;
23:11 Juerd Could work.
23:11 theorbtwo my $has_time = way $time?
23:11 Juerd waaaay time!
23:11 liz6 I was thinking Wayne's World here...
23:11 Odin-LAP Juerd: Stating that a language's prominent feature is "unworkable", which was my implication, *is*. :)
23:11 liz6 they always had "way" as the negation of "no way"
23:12 theorbtwo "no way" isn't really the right concept that we're trying to negate, though.
23:12 theorbtwo Anyway, they often used "yes way", IIRC.
23:12 Odin-LAP That explanation might be digging a bit to deep into pop culture?
23:12 liz6 perhaps...
23:12 Juerd liz6: Again lack of negative for "no", so they just leave it out :)
23:12 Odin-LAP s/to/too/; # AGH!
23:13 Juerd liz6: We also do not have a good negative for "geen", but we can at least use an article (een) or number (een, comfortably) to make up for that :)
23:13 theorbtwo geen == kein?
23:13 Juerd theorbtwo: German for "geen" is "kein", indeed.
23:14 theorbtwo English is doing the same thing there, but many words don't need an article in many positions.
23:14 Juerd "no way", "a way" doesn't feel like a negation pair
23:15 Juerd While "geen weg", "een weg" does. But this is probably only because English isn't my native language.
23:15 Juerd (Translating "no way" literally makes little sense, though :))
23:15 theorbtwo Is there a way to get what we want from here?  No, there is no way.
23:15 Odin-LAP That 'no' isn't the same as the word 'no' you use to answer a question.
23:15 Odin-LAP :p
23:16 Juerd Odin-LAP: Exactly^WIndeed.
23:16 theorbtwo German has actual different words for it -- kein and nein.  (I suspect Dutch does too.)
23:16 Juerd theorbtwo: Yes: geen and nee ("neen" too)
23:16 Odin-LAP Icelandic, too.
23:16 Odin-LAP :)
23:16 rafl theorbtwo: Oh, you're german? Will you be at the next german perl workshop? :-)
23:17 theorbtwo No, I'm American.  I took German in high school.  (And didn't do very well.)
23:17 theorbtwo I also lived in Germany for two years.
23:17 Juerd Icelandic has all the neat features that Dutch and German have, because it hasn't devolved into shit, like English has.
23:17 * theorbtwo likes English.
23:17 Odin-LAP English is a nice language.
23:17 theorbtwo I also note that we're talking English here, and not German, Dutch, Icelandic, or Chinese.
23:18 Juerd theorbtwo: You just explained why. You're American :)
23:18 Odin-LAP Sollen wir Deutsch sprechen, dann?
23:18 theorbtwo English is an /amazingly/ successful language.
23:18 theorbtwo Bissen.
23:18 Juerd theorbtwo: Maybe you're not talking about those other languages (though I'd swear you were), but we certainly are!
23:18 SamB Juerd: maybe you are confused with the related tongue known as "gibberish"
23:18 Odin-LAP theorbtwo: Ja, aber warum?
23:19 theorbtwo Odin: Wait... I think I answered that incorrectly, based on a bad guess of "Sollen".
23:19 Juerd Deutsch saugt!  # und woerdliche uebersetzungen auch!
23:19 theorbtwo We may be talking /about/ Germanic languages, but we're doing it /in/ English.
23:19 Odin-LAP Anyhow. English is a nice language. It has next to no grammar, a smattering of basic words, and a vocabulary that no single species can master. *grin*
23:20 Odin-LAP Actually, English *is* a germanic language.
23:20 Juerd theorbtwo: My brane inserted "is" there.
23:20 buu Juerd: You have a 'brane' ?
23:20 Juerd buu: In Perl channels, yes.
23:20 buu This is fascinating. Please tell more.
23:20 Juerd It's slang.
23:21 Juerd For an almost equally pronounced word.
23:21 * liz6 wonders whether eliza is pretending to be buu
23:21 Juerd Hehe.
23:21 Juerd What makes you say this is fascinating, Please tell more?
23:21 Juerd ... :)
23:21 theorbtwo I hear often that English is a horrible languge, and I can believe it.  Clearly, however, it got something right, as it's hugely popular.
23:22 Juerd theorbtwo: Oh, it does.
23:22 Juerd theorbtwo: In the Microsoft way.
23:22 theorbtwo When Russians send packages to the Arab-speaking world, what do they label the boxes in?
23:22 Juerd theorbtwo: English or French, usually.
23:23 Juerd Though I've received packages labelled in only Russian. They take at least a week longer.
23:23 Odin-LAP theorbtwo: It's nothing to do with the language as such.
23:23 Odin-LAP theorbtwo: It's pure politics.
23:23 Odin-LAP Same reason as French dominated in Europe a while back.
23:23 Juerd Odin-LAP: That's the long version of "In the Microsoft way." :)
23:23 Odin-LAP (Why do you think it's "lingua france" and not "english language"? ;)
23:23 Odin-LAP BAH!
23:23 Odin-LAP s/france/franca/
23:24 Juerd Which in turn is latin...
23:24 Juerd Which used to be the lingua franca.
23:24 Juerd I
23:24 Odin-LAP Juerd: Indeed. Which is a further, humourous twist.
23:24 Juerd I guess it's hard to start a trend and name it yourself.
23:24 Eimi has quit IRC ("Leaving")
23:25 theorbtwo Odin: I think linguistics has /something/ to do with it.  /Largely/ politics, sure.
23:25 Juerd theorbtwo: It's not excedingly hard and computers were first produced by americans, using ASCII. That too has helped English spread much.
23:26 theorbtwo Another reason is that alphebetically, it's least-common-denominator of modern latin-derived langauges, of which there are a lot.
23:28 Juerd I think that largely has to do with ASCII.
23:28 Odin-LAP The only reason for that is that they actually dropped letters out when printing arrived.
23:28 Odin-LAP Moreover, several loanwords are *properly* typeset with accents, which has receded lately, in substantial part due to ASCII.
23:29 Odin-LAP ('th' used to have a seperate letter in English, just like in Icelandic.)
23:29 Odin-LAP And if you want to get started on orthography ... :>
23:30 lisppaste3 has quit IRC ("Want lisppaste3 in your channel? Email chandler AT unmutual.info.")
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23:30 theorbtwo I'm quite glad of the phenominom, whatever the causes.
23:31 theorbtwo ...and I don't see it changing any time soon, either.
23:31 theorbtwo English, for example, isn't beginning to take on lots of loan-words from any purticular source.
23:32 Juerd I consider it likely than in a few hundred years, Chinese, or some simplified derivative, will be the lingua franca.
23:32 Juerd theorbtwo: No, it takes them from any language that has roughly the same alphabet. I'm not sure if this is a good thing.
23:33 theorbtwo I think it probably is.
23:33 theorbtwo If English were taking on a lot of Chinese loan-words, I'd say that'd be a pretty clear sign that Chinese was winning.
23:33 Odin-LAP *blink*
23:34 Juerd theorbtwo: Eh.
23:34 Odin-LAP You *do* realise that approximately half the modern english vocabulary is derived from latin, directly or indirectly?
23:34 Juerd Odin-LAP: And that in turn from Greek.
23:34 Juerd Which is all to often ignored.
23:34 theorbtwo Yes, Odin.  If it were taking them on /now/, it'd be a different matter.
23:34 Odin-LAP Juerd: In some cases, yes. Not as many as most assume.
23:35 theorbtwo But I see lots of English in Chinese, and other languages.  In non-latin languages, it's even more noticable, because they stick out like sore thumbs.
23:35 Juerd Odin-LAP: I was taught there was a greek language that existed before what we know as Ancient Greek, that was mostly the basis for Latin.
23:36 Odin-LAP Juerd: Huh. I see.
23:36 theorbtwo When English took on a load of outside words, it was certianly /not/ the lingua-franca.
23:37 Juerd theorbtwo: Which is this clearly defined period in which English took on a load of outside words?
23:37 Juerd theorbtwo: The language has always done that (if a language can actively do anything, that is)
23:38 Juerd theorbtwo: It takes from whatever is current at the moment of taking. Which is no surprise, of course.
23:38 theorbtwo If Chinese were to become the linga franca, it'd take those external words and make them Chinese, as English does.
23:38 Juerd I wouldn't
23:39 Juerd I'm one of the people who think the English influence for non-English languages is already too broad.
23:39 Juerd The French are very extreme in this idea, and tend to reject any use of English.
23:39 hexmode has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:39 theorbtwo Yes, they do.
23:39 Juerd I'm more flexible, but I do think existing Dutch words should be used when there are any.
23:39 theorbtwo As a concequence, you don't see many non-french people speaking french.
23:39 Odin-LAP theorbtwo: O_o
23:39 Juerd theorbtwo: Huh?
23:40 Odin-LAP theorbtwo: Are you really that ignorant, or..?
23:40 theorbtwo Possibly I am.
23:40 Juerd theorbtwo: Can I have a copy of that encyclopaedia? :)
23:40 theorbtwo Ahh, but Encyclopedia now has the status of a full English word.
23:40 Odin-LAP French is believed to be the second most widespread second language after English.
23:41 Odin-LAP It's a loanword.
23:41 theorbtwo No it's not.
23:41 Odin-LAP Yes, it is.
23:41 theorbtwo It /was/ a loanword.
23:41 Odin-LAP Doesn't matter how long it's been used.
23:41 theorbtwo No, it doesn't.
23:41 Odin-LAP A loanword is still a loanword a thousand years later.
23:41 Juerd theorbtwo: Is that American culture, to loan something and never return it, and then call it yours? :)
23:41 Juerd And call it yours *because* you never stopped using it? :)
23:42 Odin-LAP (Although English doesn't *have* those, since it's not that old, I speak languages that do. :)
23:42 Juerd Odin-LAP: Like Icelandic? :)
23:42 Odin-LAP Yes.
23:42 Odin-LAP Like Icelandic.
23:42 Juerd Why doesn't this surprise me... :)
23:42 theorbtwo It's an English word.  Schoolchildren aren't taught that it's a Latin word that they can use in conversation anyway.
23:43 Juerd theorbtwo: That's to prevent brane overload.
23:43 Juerd theorbtwo: Not because it's true.
23:43 Odin-LAP (Really. They can pretty much time the appearance of certain christianity-related words; that's maybe 900 years back, maybe more.)
23:43 theorbtwo Ah, but it is true.
23:43 Juerd Teaching is an art of lying in a way that people will not kill you for.
23:43 theorbtwo What is it about the word that makes it anything but English?
23:43 Odin-LAP Oh, but if you're hung on "encyclopedia", let me get at an even better example.
23:44 Odin-LAP "Knife" is not an english word.
23:44 Odin-LAP It's a loanword.
23:44 Odin-LAP *manic-grin*
23:44 theorbtwo Similarly, Beef is a perfectly valid English word, even though it's based on the French, and appeared around the time of the Norman invasion.
23:44 Odin-LAP (So are "husband", "wife", "window", and several other common words.)
23:45 theorbtwo No, those are English words.
23:45 theorbtwo We stole them, made them our own.
23:45 Odin-LAP In the sense that english uses them, yes.
23:45 Juerd Does this make regexes Perl?
23:46 theorbtwo Yes.
23:46 Juerd Does it make animals cows?
23:46 theorbtwo No.
23:46 eric256 did any language realy just randomly make up its own words? i've always been of the understanding that every langauge known today evolved from some other language
23:46 Juerd Okay. Keep feeding this new neural net.
23:46 theorbtwo I am me, and not the food I have been eating for the past 25 years.
23:47 Juerd theorbtwo: The food is digested and no longer in your body.
23:47 * eric256 wonders if now is the time to shout out "sure you are pig!"
23:47 Odin-LAP eric256: Yes, but there's a difference between that and nicking words from other languages. Not to say that it's wrong, in any sense, but linguistically quite distinct.
23:47 Juerd Otherwise you'd be a hell of a lot heavier.
23:47 Juerd Now, English actually did get a lot heavier.
23:47 Khisanth some of it might be though
23:47 Juerd The words are still there. Usually in their original forms too.
23:47 theorbtwo More or less.
23:48 iblechbot has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
23:48 theorbtwo Resumé kept it's terminal accent, but the plural is Resumés, not Résumés as it would be in French.
23:48 theorbtwo (Please, correct me if my French is wrong.)
23:49 Juerd I haven't seen it spelled with any accent in English yet.
23:50 Juerd But the accent on the first e is there in French in both the singular and the plural
23:50 Juerd What is your point?
23:50 xern has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:50 Juerd And even if you destroy someone else's property, it doesn't become yours.
23:50 theorbtwo My point is that I think most English-speakers don't think they have inserted a French word into the middle of their sentance, but instead have used a slightly abnormal English word.
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23:51 xern has joined #perl6
23:51 Juerd Even if you mutate another language's word, it doesn't become English.
23:51 eric256 Odin-LAP...realy?  whats the difference between evolving the use of existing words, and evolving the user of existing words? ;)
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23:51 theorbtwo It's not like the French can't have it too.
23:51 Juerd theorbtwo: That failure of "most English-speakers" doesn't change facts.
23:51 theorbtwo We made a copy.  This is our copy, they still have theirs.
23:52 theorbtwo I fail to see where facts enter this discussion.
23:52 Juerd .oO( copy, break, spread, sell, profit! )
23:52 Juerd s/sell/support/ ;)
23:53 theorbtwo BTW, where do you get the "knife" example from?
23:53 Juerd TBH, "knife" was in Old English
23:53 theorbtwo http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/Knife
23:53 Juerd Which is derived from the same branch of Germanic languages that Icelandic stems from.
23:54 eric256 hey. americans are muts, why shouldn't our language be too!
23:54 Juerd eric256: Oh, it can be nuts.
23:54 Juerd I don't mind.
23:54 theorbtwo The word may be in other languages as well as English, but it is beyond doubt an English word.
23:54 Odin-LAP eric256: The distinction is quite simple. The predecessor language usually has earlier, older versions of words. If it does not - the word is a loanword - then that's nice to know, since it means you don't have to go hunting for the word's prior version. That's all. It's just a linguistic convenience.
23:55 * eric256 thinks linguist are crazy...but then he thinks most people are crazy,
23:55 Odin-LAP theorbtwo: Merriam-Webster actually supports my point. :>
23:56 theorbtwo How do you figure?
23:56 Juerd "Etymology" followed by ancient languages is a clear sign...
23:57 theorbtwo Yes.  That a long time ago, somebody took a copy from it out of some other language, and since it's become a perfectly normal English word.
23:57 Juerd No offense, but English itself is a loanword ;)
23:57 theorbtwo I think I understand now.
23:57 Odin-LAP theorbtwo: You're misunderstanding what the whole question is about.
23:57 eric256 every ones always picking on us poor english folk.
23:58 Juerd theorbtwo: There is no negative connotation with "loanword".
23:58 Juerd theorbtwo: There's nothing to be offended about.
23:58 Juerd (over?)
23:58 Odin-LAP A word's being a loanword doesn't mean it's less valid.
23:58 eric256 Juerd easy for you to say, its not your language they are picking on!!
23:58 eric256 lol
23:58 Odin-LAP (Unless you're a crazed purist, which in the case of English would be sheer insanity.)
23:58 theorbtwo In America we have a saying, or at least I do -- "Everybody's got to be from somewhere".
23:58 SamB Juerd: maybe you don't know what etymology means
23:58 Juerd eric256: In a way, it is too.
23:59 Juerd SamB: I find that highly unlikely.
23:59 Juerd Maybe you don't know me very well :)
23:59 eric256 i like when people ask me where i'm from. i tell them i'm a mutt.  little oh this little oh that. probably not more than 20% of any one thing ;)
23:59 theorbtwo I'm an American.  This is far more important then where my ancestors were from before they were American -- Russian, German, Scotch, Irish, Sweedish, a little of this, a little of that.
23:59 SamB Juerd: it does not mean "what language a word is from"
23:59 Juerd theorbtwo: That's because of some unfortunate history with "native" americans.

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