Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-11-11

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 Odin-LAP theorbtwo, eric256: Well, bugger you. I challenge you to read texts written in Old English, and be able to understand the meaning without needing a dictionary or other assistance. :)
00:00 theorbtwo No, Juerd, it's not.  They're from somewhere else too.  They were just there a little longer.
00:00 Juerd theorbtwo: In other parts of the world, there are actually very large groups of people who have for many generations been in the same spot on earth.
00:00 theorbtwo Yes.  They came from somewhere else too, though.  They've just forgotten about it.
00:01 Odin-LAP theorbtwo: Doesn't change the fact that the prior inhabitants were forcibly removed.
00:01 Juerd theorbtwo: That is true.
00:01 Odin-LAP (Well, apart from the ones inadvertently killed by diseases, but we can't really blame anyone for that, can we?)
00:01 * eric256 challenges Odin-LAP to find a nation founded somewhere they didn't force *somebody* out
00:02 Odin-LAP eric256: Hi. Iceland.
00:02 Juerd Odin-LAP: Religious people have a great tool for that. They have dieties to blame for everything.
00:02 theorbtwo Odin-LAP: The ones inadvertently killed?  No.  The ones purposefully killed: Yes, we can blame them for that, too.
00:02 Odin-LAP theorbtwo: Hmh?
00:02 eric256 Icelands never forced ANYONE out?  i'm not prepared to rebuke that, but i doubt that it is true.  it might have happened long long ago but i'm sure it happened
00:03 theorbtwo Germ theory may not have been figured out, but everybody knew that objects could carry desese, and some of those blankets sure as hell did.
00:03 Juerd theorbtwo: It was thought that *spirits* and *soals* could carry disease.
00:04 SamB Juerd: those people couldn't spell!
00:04 Juerd theorbtwo: That blankets could was for a very long time unknown and unthought of.
00:04 Juerd SamB: Neither can these. Your point?
00:04 SamB hmm, that exclamation point was out of place...
00:05 Juerd SamB: Your exclamation pointless point then?
00:05 Odin-LAP eric256: Iceland was uninhabited, when vikings came here. There is some indication that there were christian celts here ... but the evidence is unclear whether they had left already, or left after the vikings came. There is no indication, neither historically nor archeologically, that they were forced to leave. There is no evidence whatsoever of long-term inhabitation before that.
00:05 SamB hmm, lame attempt at humour?
00:06 Juerd Odin-LAP: Ooh, like Mars </american> :)
00:06 Odin-LAP theorbtwo: True. Those weren't the cases I was considering, though.
00:06 theorbtwo Odin: I find it more likely by far that they were forced to leave and there is no longer evidence available of it then that they weren't.
00:06 Odin-LAP theorbtwo: ?
00:07 geoffb Returning to a (much) earlier tangent:  IIRC, the proper single word for refusing to buy into the question is "mu", from Chinese.  But I could easily be mistaken, it's been a while.
00:07 Juerd theorbtwo: How is your geography?
00:07 theorbtwo Not wonderful.
00:07 Juerd theorbtwo: How would people *get* there?
00:07 Juerd theorbtwo: It requires a certain level of sophistication
00:07 Odin-LAP Oh, and did you know that norsemen in Greenland didn't see any inuits for the first hundred years or so? :>
00:07 Juerd theorbtwo: And the Vikings were very probably the first... :)
00:07 eric256 Odin-LAP...yea some quick research seems to confirm that.  but america is definitly not the only place where that happened. i wonder if you could pick a second. unfortunatly its time to leave.  later
00:08 Odin-LAP And that when the vikings came to the north american continent, they were actually driven away by the natives? :>
00:08 Juerd theorbtwo: It's not a distance anyone could swim :)
00:08 theorbtwo Boats?
00:08 Odin-LAP eric256: I never meant to imply america was the only place.
00:08 Juerd theorbtwo: Not just any boats.
00:08 Odin-LAP Juerd: Oh, people did stop by earlier.
00:08 Juerd Odin-LAP: But not with the means of staying there for long.
00:09 theorbtwo There's pretty good evidence that nobody is native to anywhere but Africa.
00:09 eric256 Odin-LAP in such discussions its often implied.  anyway we are just one of the most recent and probably best documented cases. not that anyone alive today played any part in it.
00:09 Odin-LAP Like I said, there's evidence to support the presence of celts, for sustained periods. Not communities, though. Apparently monestaries.
00:09 Odin-LAP theorbtwo: That's a misrepresentation of the term native.
00:09 Odin-LAP eric256: I'm not assigning any blame, either. :)
00:09 * eric256 sticks aronud long enough to hear Odin-LAP representation of the word native
00:10 * liz6 is swimming to bed
00:10 Juerd liz6: Don't drown :)
00:10 liz6 oOOooOoOoOOoOoOooOOOoOOO  *zzzzz*
00:10 Juerd liz6: Heh... This gives new meanings to "je bed induiken"
00:10 liz6 has quit IRC ("User disconnected")
00:10 Odin-LAP eric256: Well, if you're born there, grew up there, have lived most of your life there ... doesn't that mean you're native?
00:11 Odin-LAP I like the australian name ... "aboriginal".
00:11 Odin-LAP I don't think that has any worse negative association than does native. Although it is, as has been pointed out here, arbitrary.
00:11 eric256 that hardly fits "native americans" then doesn't it?  the population of americans a forced out indians was in large part native too. ;)
00:11 eric256 alright. later
00:12 eric256 has left
00:12 Odin-LAP Well, yes. I disagree with the terminology "native americans", but I'm in such a tiny minority that I think it's better to just shut up and conform than raise a noise.
00:12 Odin-LAP It's not *that* important an issue... :>
00:13 Odin-LAP (The real important issue is the continuing racism and discrimination. :)
00:13 theorbtwo It's not, but it seems closely related to the earlier discussion.
00:13 geoffb Odin-LAP, you're not in a tiny minority -- it's just that, most of the time, it does no one any good to argue the point.
00:13 Juerd theorbtwo: For the record, please do note the "" I put around native.
00:14 * Juerd too is in this tiny minority, regardless of whether it actually is that.
00:14 Odin-LAP Heh. :p
00:15 Juerd The impossible is always in some way attractive.
00:15 theorbtwo I think English is such a successful language because it's so accepting of new words.  Thus, new concepts get new words quickly in English, and other languages tend to use the English terms for them, but keep them English, rather then absorbing them into their linguistic identity.
00:15 theorbtwo This, at the very least, is my impression.
00:15 Odin-LAP theorbtwo: That's utter bullshit.
00:15 * Juerd refrains from saying what he thinks
00:15 geoffb Odin-LAP, not holding back . . . .
00:16 Odin-LAP Other languages make them theirs in just the same way as English does. That's what the whole process is about.
00:16 Juerd Though this should provide you with enough information to guess the underlying thought patterns.
00:16 theorbtwo Odin: What's the Icelandic term for a HTML file?
00:16 Odin-LAP That's why they are loanwords, dammit! If they weren't made conform to the language, they wouldn't even be that.
00:17 * theorbtwo finds a randm multilingual manual.
00:17 Odin-LAP theorbtwo: "HTML skjal", usually. In Icelandic, you're quite likely picking the lousiest target for your point of any european language.
00:18 Juerd theorbtwo: That is unfair. Your question involves a deliberately unilingual name for a technology. It was consciously named, and an acronym even.
00:18 Odin-LAP We're worse than the french as regards constructing new words for most everything. :)
00:18 theorbtwo What does HTML stand for in Icelandic?  Hyper-Text Markup Language, I'm betting.
00:18 Juerd DUH.
00:18 Odin-LAP O_o
00:19 theorbtwo Why does this document say "ist für Turbo" and "ist für Reset" insted of using the German terms for Turbo and Reset?
00:19 Odin-LAP theorbtwo: BIPM still stands for "Bureau International des Poids et Mesures" in English, you know.
00:19 Juerd theorbtwo: They're technical jargon, which happens to be English, because you guys INVENTED it. Or, well, often claim so :)
00:19 theorbtwo Yeah, we still get some of them.
00:20 theorbtwo Juerd: The concept of going faster is not a purticularly new one.
00:20 Juerd Technical jargon is often encouraged to not be translated.
00:20 Juerd To keep it easy to exchange development and understanding.
00:21 Juerd In a Dutch Perl article, I'd not translate array.
00:21 Juerd Or hash.
00:21 Juerd Or regex.
00:21 Juerd Or sub.
00:21 Juerd Or print.
00:21 theorbtwo Yes.  And somehow, they generally seem to be in English.
00:21 Juerd Because that'd make it very hard to ever learn Perl, considering that the official documentation is in English.
00:22 Odin-LAP theorbtwo: For political reasons, not linguistic.
00:22 Juerd theorbtwo: That has much to do with Larry's being of English tongue.
00:22 theorbtwo I think the same is true in Ruby.
00:22 theorbtwo I don't know much Ruby, I'm afraid, please correct me if I'm wrong.
00:22 Juerd theorbtwo: In Ruby, it is because of political reasons only.
00:22 Juerd But do note that there's a lot of japanese Ruby documentation. Even some that has no English counterpart.
00:23 theorbtwo I'm surprised.
00:23 Odin-LAP English is the lingua france of the modern age. Nobody is arguing otherwise. What's in dispute is the reason for that. :)
00:23 Juerd Still, computer technology makes for very bad examples.
00:23 Odin-LAP Oookay.
00:23 Odin-LAP Muscle memory in action?
00:23 Odin-LAP s/france/franca/; # BAH!
00:24 theorbtwo I think computer technology is a good example; it's a place where lots of terminology gets invented all the time.
00:24 theorbtwo Some of it makes it into the public conciousness, some doesn't.
00:25 Juerd theorbtwo: Computers made English THE MOST DOMINANT language.
00:25 Juerd Computers, and only computers, could do this. Politics can do a lot, but computers were very important.
00:25 Odin-LAP theorbtwo: Computers distort the field heavily towards english.
00:25 Juerd Everything that has to do with computers is in Englesh.
00:25 Juerd English even
00:25 Odin-LAP By virtue of politics. ;)
00:25 Juerd (This is a huge generalization.)
00:25 Juerd Now, consider cars.
00:26 Juerd Parts have different names in different countries. Regardless of where the car came from, actually!
00:26 Juerd My Korean car is described using Dutch words.
00:26 Juerd And no, the original manual for the car is not English, it is Korean.
00:27 theorbtwo Juerd: But I'll bet there are a number of English terms for it, in the English alphebet, even, and not transliterated.
00:27 Juerd Is it a very old car, then? No, only 8 years.
00:27 theorbtwo Do you have a copy of the original manual?
00:27 Juerd theorbtwo: For which "it"?
00:27 theorbtwo I meant "in it", the original manual.
00:28 Juerd I don't have any copy. I've seen it in microprinting, though.
00:28 theorbtwo Nod.
00:28 theorbtwo Hm, I wonder if I have a manual handy for any nontechnical equipment with a non-latin-character-set language in the manual.
00:28 Juerd I can't read Korean. There are ways to transliterate (lossily), but acronyms are usually kept roman. There were surprisingly few roman characters on the pages.
00:29 theorbtwo Probably not; I don't generally keep them.
00:29 Juerd Fortunately, Hyundai does translate these things too.
00:29 Juerd To English, because it's the lingua franca, and thus because of politics.
00:29 theorbtwo s/thus/that/, BTW.
00:29 Juerd If you wish.
00:30 Juerd It's not what I meant to say, though.
00:30 Odin-LAP theorbtwo: Actually, no.
00:30 Odin-LAP The meaning is different.
00:30 theorbtwo Hm.  I know the meaning is different, but I though it was what Juerd meant to say.
00:30 Juerd I've been arguing that s/// should be non-mutating by default for quite some time now. This is another good reason.
00:31 theorbtwo I'm going to shut up now, though, because I told Jess I'd be up to bed soon for quite a while now.
00:31 theorbtwo Er, quite a while ago now.
00:31 Juerd And it's time I went home and into bed too.
00:31 theorbtwo Juerd: I'd agree with making s/// non-mutating in non-void context, but mutating in void context.
00:31 theorbtwo Uh, where are you?
00:31 Juerd theorbtwo: That's dangerous.
00:32 theorbtwo It's 1:30 in the morning there, no?
00:32 Juerd Everything should be non-mutating, even in void context
00:32 Juerd for @array { uc } shouldn't mutate.
00:32 Juerd It's 1:30 am here, yes.
00:32 Juerd I'm in my office.
00:33 theorbtwo Um, OK.
00:33 theorbtwo Have a nice trip, and sleep well.
00:33 Juerd Would there be non-ok places for me to be? :)
00:33 Juerd Just wondering...
00:33 Juerd Anyway, thanks and bye
00:33 Juerd Good night
00:39 ycheng autrijus: will you come to icos ?
00:39 theorbtwo OK, not so much.
00:39 apple-gunkies has joined #perl6
00:41 apple-gunkies changes topic to:
00:41 apple-gunkies oops
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00:41 apple-gunkies Did I do that for everyone?
00:42 leo yes
00:42 apple-gunkies I was just trying to click on the likn
00:42 apple-gunkies link
00:43 apple-gunkies changes topic to: -Ofun: http://xrl.us/hxhk | pugscode.org | pugs.kwiki.org | paste: http://paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 or http://sial.org/pbot/perl6
00:47 geoffb thanks for fixing it again, apple-gunkies
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01:45 gantrixx Is there anyone here who lives in Arizona and is looking for a job?  If so, message me privately.
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02:36 dduncan gantrixx, does it need to be in Arizona, or is telecommute fine?
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04:52 svnbot6 r7926 | Darren_Duncan++ |  r773@Darren-Duncans-Computer:  darrenduncan | 2005-11-10 02:31:48 -0800
04:52 svnbot6 r7926 | Darren_Duncan++ |  /ext/Rosetta-Incubator : added new file /docs/Copying which outlines my copyright related intentions for Rosetta
04:52 svnbot6 r7927 | Darren_Duncan++ |  r784@Darren-Duncans-Computer:  darrenduncan | 2005-11-10 20:46:39 -0800
04:52 svnbot6 r7927 | Darren_Duncan++ |  /ext/Rosetta-Incubator : added new /examples directory which contains 'inverter1' and 'inverter2' examples for Locale::KeyedText; the content of these 10 new files used to be POD in KeyedText.pm prior to its rewrite
05:01 evalbot_7927 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
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05:04 svnbot6 r7928 | Darren_Duncan++ |  r787@Darren-Duncans-Computer:  darrenduncan | 2005-11-10 20:58:48 -0800
05:04 svnbot6 r7928 | Darren_Duncan++ |  /ext/Rosetta-Incubator : oops, forgot to remove trailing whitespace
05:09 dduncan hmm, it seems that I've found one way that svk behaves differently than svn ... it pushes the same update more than once if I'm inside a different subdir of the remote-mirror local copy
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05:25 dduncan so now I'll try and actually execute the rewritten Locale::KeyedText using the new examples, and validate that it works
05:28 geoffb gantrixx, if you're still around, I have the same question that dduncan had . . .
05:28 gantrixx ok
05:29 gantrixx msg me privately
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05:38 eric256 hello
05:42 azuroth hey
05:44 eric256 anyone know if p6 has a nice easy way to make linked lists? i  can't say i've used linked lists in p5 at all. but the code at http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=507605 made me wonder. that is bracket hell! ;)
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05:55 azuroth I wonder if eric's coming back..
05:57 azuroth ?eval my $a = "5"; ~+$a
05:57 evalbot_7928 "5"
05:57 azuroth ?eval my $a = "5a"; ~+$a
05:57 evalbot_7928 "5"
05:57 azuroth cool..
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06:11 * Khisanth wonders why anyone would need to be making linked lists in Perl
06:12 geoffb Khisanth, doing a lot of splicing?
06:12 geoffb (In and out of really long lists, I mean)
06:14 Khisanth but what are the advantages over arrays?
06:14 geoffb splice() is O(1), not O(n)
06:15 geoffb (Assuming you already know the splice point)
06:15 Khisanth that is a strange answer
06:15 geoffb Of course, finding the splice point may have become O(n) instead of O(1), so there's a tradeoff.  :-)
06:16 geoffb Khisanth, why is that strange?
06:17 geoffb Oh, also linked lists handle sparseness better than flat arrays
06:17 azuroth sparseness?
06:17 azuroth little memory?
06:17 dduncan are you wanting linked lists because you think it will perform faster, or just so it is easier to use?
06:17 geoffb azuroth, when only a few elements out of a large virtual array have non-empty values
06:18 azuroth ahh
06:18 dduncan if just the former, remember the old "don't guess but benchmark" rule
06:18 geoffb dduncan, I hope you're not asking me . . . I'm only answering Khisanth's theoretical question.
06:18 dduncan I'm asking whomever wants linked lists
06:19 geoffb ah, well OK then.  :-)
06:19 dduncan and that person left the chat room ... oops
06:21 Khisanth geoffb: well in that particular post it looks like they only needed to be able to iterate through it, no need to randomly access things in the middle
06:22 geoffb Having just looked at  the post, I've no clue why someone would do it that way, except because they were used to a language that didn't have arrays (or a decent idom for iterating over them)
06:22 azuroth maybe eric was just wondering because that way's so ugly?
06:23 geoffb azuroth, possibly
06:23 Khisanth that would be odd too, I mean not even the equivalent of for( i=0; i < size; i++ ) { }? :)
06:23 geoffb Khisanth, c-for is not my idea of a decent iteration idiom.  ;-)
06:24 Khisanth that post doesn't look much better :P
06:25 geoffb Khisanth, oh, totally agreed.
06:27 geoffb perl -i.bak -pe 's/(level = ){/$1[{/; s/, next =>/},/; s/}+;$/}];/;'
06:27 geoffb seems a good start
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06:32 azuroth that hurts my head
06:32 geoffb azuroth, :-)
06:33 azuroth plus I don't know what -i and -p mean. is -p like :p on regexes?
06:35 geoffb -i is output directly back to the same named file you input, with an option to make a backup with a specified extension.
06:35 geoffb -p means "iterate over every line in input file, printing the result of whatever changes you've made to each line"
06:36 azuroth ohh. cool
06:36 geoffb in other words, its a while { ....; print } loop
06:36 geoffb -n is the same, without the implied print
06:37 azuroth how sneaky
06:37 geoffb gratuitous self-plug: http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2​004/10/14/file_editing.html
06:40 azuroth ahh, I get it now. I was getting confused with perl 6 closures slightly ;-p
06:41 * azuroth reads
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07:27 gaal ooh! the parser change *did* work, but the test was wrong.
07:28 geoffb :-)
07:29 gaal grrr, no, actually, not exactly \-:
07:29 * geoffb is exhausted, and the pugs build will take a while, so I'm off to bed.  Night all.
07:29 gaal ?eval say "cond true" if "don't matter" ~~ { say "in cond" }
07:29 evalbot_7928 in cond cond true bool::true
07:29 gaal ?eval say "cond true" if "don't matter" ~~ { say "in cond"; bool::false }
07:29 evalbot_7928 in cond undef
07:29 gaal this is correct behavior
07:30 gaal but the when { } { } still doesn't work
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07:30 gaal night geoffb
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07:31 azuroth lisppaste3?
07:31 azuroth hmm. I was hoping it would tell me about itself
07:32 buu lisppaste3: LIVE.
07:35 gaal does the order of rules matter in parsec?
07:35 gaal i mean of haskell functions in the file.
07:36 gaal is there a way to get a trace of the whole parse?
07:36 gaal i'll ask #haskell :-)
07:36 azuroth hehehe
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08:55 clkao dduncan: svk pushes same update more than once?
08:56 dduncan hello
08:56 dduncan well, something weird seems to have happened ... just a minute ...
08:57 dduncan clkao, look at the Pugs commit log revs 7920 and 7926 ... the same message appears twice, but only the first one should appear
08:58 dduncan quickie url is http://rt.openfoundry.org/Foundry/P​roject/Source/index.html/pugs/log/
08:59 clkao what were you doing and where in checkout? goit command history?
08:59 dduncan I have my svk set up with the single nameless repository, one subfolder to mirror remote pugs, one for local pugs
09:00 dduncan I typically do all control within my pugs working dir, which is the checked out local svk subfolder
09:00 dduncan to update, I say 'svk pull', which brings things all the way through like svn up did
09:01 dduncan to commit, I first svk-commit, then svk-push
09:01 dduncan now I did something else which may be unusual, but was what I said so far normal enough?
09:02 dduncan how I often work is that ...
09:02 clkao *nod*
09:02 dduncan what is mirrored and checked out is all of pugs
09:02 dduncan quite often my cwd is /ext/Rosetta-Incubator ...
09:03 dduncan sometimes I invoke svk while the cwd is that, and other times I invoke svk when my cwd is the pugs root, which that is a subfolder of
09:04 dduncan from my svn experience, I assumed that it didn't matter and the right thing would happen as long as I was in any subdir of the pugs checkout folder
09:04 clkao ya, you branch the whole tree, right?
09:04 dduncan yes
09:04 dduncan I do it roughly like this ...
09:05 dduncan svk mirror //pugs_try1/mirror http...
09:05 dduncan svk cp //pugs_try1/local //pugs_try1/mirror
09:05 dduncan svk sync ...
09:05 dduncan svk checkout //pugs_try1/local pugs
09:06 dduncan and in that checkout folder I mainly just do pull, push, and commit
09:06 dduncan or I do those things in subdirs of the checkout folder
09:06 dduncan I may have a few syntax errors in what I said here
09:06 clkao *nod* but the flow is alright. so you usually push and pull  inside ext/rosetta?
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09:07 dduncan sometimes
09:07 clkao and doing what on toplevel resulted in weird behaviour?
09:07 dduncan I normally pull inside the pugs root folder, to get everyone's changes, and sometimes push there
09:07 dduncan sometimes I push in Rosetta if thats where all my changes are
09:07 dduncan I did notice ...
09:08 dduncan that sometimes svk reports a whole bunch of auto-merges going on, or names files with the 'g' flag on the left column, when I push or pull, when I wouldn't expect that to happen
09:08 dduncan said merges were between my local and mirror, on files that either I and no one else edited, or other people and not I
09:09 dduncan the 'g' I think appeared just naming the files in the commit that appeared on pugs main server twice
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09:09 dduncan this seemed unusual, so I thought perhaps my cwd at the time of the push/pull may have been a factor ...
09:10 dduncan unless there's a better solution, I'm thinking to just explicitly cwd to the pugs root checkout before doing any push/pull so that doesn't happen
09:11 clkao 'g' during push or pull? or both?
09:12 dduncan I'm having trouble remembering, but I think it was either once on both or once on the pull
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09:12 dduncan I think it occurred when I pushed when inside the ext subdir, and later pulled when in the main dir
09:12 clkao ok, i will take a look at pugs repository later
09:13 clkao there should be trace
09:13 dduncan on a separate note ...
09:13 dduncan do you remember my saying a few days ago that svk spat out warnings from Class::Autouse on every invocation?
09:14 clkao ya. it seems to have something to do with c::autouse version and svn version iirc.
09:14 dduncan I tracked this down to apparently being a bug in perl 5.8.1, which no longer exists in version 5.8.7
09:14 clkao really?
09:14 clkao but i thought people still see that on macosx perl 587
09:14 dduncan the warning is ...
09:14 dduncan Useless use of a constant in void context at /usr/local/svk-1.05/perl/Class/Autouse.pm line 79 ... and other lines
09:15 dduncan but looking at that source file showed that the constant's use was not a void context
09:15 dduncan in my interpretation ...
09:16 dduncan for example, line 79 says : _debug(\@_, 1) if DEBUG
09:17 dduncan that doesn't look like a void context, since the constant DEBUG is being used in an if-statement
09:18 dduncan as a test, I tried getting the same Autouse from CPAN and making it by itself ... doing this under the system perl 5.8.1 spat out the same warnings, though fewer of them ... making it under my custom perl 5.8.7 did not display any warnings
09:18 dduncan this was my first determination that it was a bug in perl
09:19 dduncan also, yesterday I looked at the perldeltas for the 5.8 series, and around 5.8.5 it said it removed some warnings which seemed relevant
09:20 dduncan so now, I tried to make use of this fact, and tried customizing the svkbuild config file to use my custom perl rather than the normal one, but some of the bundled perl modules threw a fit, I think due to /usr/bin/perl being hardcoded in some places, so I had no choice but to install svk against the system perl and put up with the warnings
09:21 dduncan clkao, so that's my report re svk for today
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09:25 r0nny yo
09:25 dduncan yo jo
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09:49 renormalist rafl?
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10:22 azuroth whoa. fluxbox is weird
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10:22 buu ratpoison, ratpoison!
10:23 azuroth haha. yeah, I'll give that a go
10:23 buu Good!
10:23 azuroth flux looks like I could get used to, though, hopefully
10:23 buu Hrm
10:23 buu File system has 6103459 clusters but only space for 6102014 FAT entries.
10:23 buu Anyone ever seen tha?
10:24 buu Guess not =[
10:24 buu And you were my last hope.
10:24 azuroth :x
10:30 azuroth that's interesting; alt tab only cycles through unminimised windows
10:30 buu You shall experience the joy of the poison
10:30 azuroth I will in a minute
10:30 azuroth I'll bet not for long though
10:32 buu It's awesome
10:32 buu You never have to touch the mouse to manipulate windows.
10:32 buu No more reaching over.
10:32 azuroth I wonder what "exec," "execcommand," and "execute" do differently
10:32 buu Where?
10:33 azuroth in fluxkeys
10:34 azuroth I'm trying to make ctrl+alt+T open a terminal
10:34 azuroth has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
10:35 buu Pssh
10:35 buu That's what you get for not using a real wm
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10:40 azuroth how cruel. I changed the "style" to a bad one, and now I can't open the styles menu for some reason
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11:46 svnbot6 r7929 | kane++ | * add a general flow and more explenation
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11:46 rafl renormalist: Yes?
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12:37 r0nny re
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13:35 azuroth help me with ratpoison!
13:39 r0nny azuroth: its like screen
13:40 azuroth I can't figure out how to use the resize thingy
13:41 azuroth I've managed to get a browser open now though, so yay
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14:07 cognominal_ ?eval my @a = ( "a") ;  "a" ~~ rx| @a |
14:07 evalbot_7929 *** Cannot parse PGE: :w:: @a  *** Error: end of file Match.new(   ok => bool::false,    from => 0,    to => 0,    str => "",    sub_pos => (),    sub_named => {} )
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14:24 r0nny azuroth: âfaik ratpoison has no resize
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14:24 r0nny azuroth: each windows is fullscreen
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14:41 svnbot6 r7930 | kane++ | * write out the alternatives section
14:41 svnbot6 r7930 | kane++ | * note that we've got that working now in the prototype
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15:06 gaal hello! polling again for Parsec folks. any about?
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15:11 PerlJam I wish there were more Parsec folks about.  With sufficient mass, they could implement p6 rules  :)
15:12 SamB PerlJam: are you kidding? we haven't even implemented ParserT yet!
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15:19 Limbic_Region seen autrijus
15:19 jabbot Limbic_Region: autrijus was seen 1 days 21 hours 19 minutes 34 seconds ago
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16:33 * kolibrie wants to learn Parsec, maybe
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16:51 xinming ?eval role A { method test { "$?CLASS" } }; class B does A { }; B.new.test;
16:51 evalbot_7930 "A"
16:51 xinming Is this right?
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16:54 xinming ?eval role A { method test { ::?CLASS } }; class B does A { }; B.new.test;
16:54 evalbot_7930 \::A
16:56 gaal $?CLASS is compiletime, no? so i think it is right.
16:58 xinming gaal: hmm, I don't agree with that. :-/
17:00 xinming gaal: if so, which variable will be used for current class name?
17:03 gaal $*CLASS maybe? I'm not sure about OOP in p6 at all; this is by analogy with other things.
17:05 Juerd $?CLASS
17:05 xinming Juerd: So, This might be a bug.
17:06 Juerd Why?
17:07 xinming Juerd: As, role A is used for code reuse, and class is used for instance management, But here, what the example above shown is that $?CLASS should be the same as "B". :-/
17:07 xinming hmm,
17:07 * xinming isn't so sure about this...
17:08 Juerd I think you're right.
17:09 * Juerd is labeling 3.5" diskettes again.
17:09 Juerd It feels like I went 10 years back in time.
17:10 * Juerd remembers the first time he did some work for a company.
17:10 Juerd They couldn't pay me in cash, but I was very, very happy with the 10 boxes of diskettes.
17:11 Juerd I had a few hundred in use.
17:11 xinming I still remember what I did for my first job is posting new articles. :-P
17:11 Juerd I was 13, and couldn't really afford all the disks I needed to store everything I wanted to store.
17:12 Juerd It was hard to throw the diskettes away after they had been magnetized by a misplaced magnet.
17:12 Juerd Sure, I hadn't used any of the disks in over a year, but it was painful anyhow :)
17:13 Juerd Now, many years later again, I actually had to buy a box... To install Windows Server 2003.
17:13 Juerd The morons still want their SCSI drivers on old fashioned magdisks.
17:16 liz6 you mean the tinkering charlatans?
17:16 Juerd Other prutsers, but yes :)
17:16 kolibrie xinming: $?CLASS is set at compile time, but is lexically scoped, so I think you are right - should be B
17:17 xinming Juerd: hmm, for installing, Windows, You'd better to buy a Floppy Drive. though, you can make an iso yourself with the needed Controller driver built in, But it is really a pain while you try this,
17:17 * xinming ever wasted 5 CD-Rs,
17:17 Juerd I know, I know...
17:17 Juerd It's exactly why I still put old fashioned disk drives in Windows boxes.
17:17 xinming That's why I have to choose Linux for my Sata 200G disk. :-/
17:18 Juerd Haha
17:18 xinming Ext3 isn't so stable in some situation.
17:18 Juerd I think Microsoft has some evil contracts with fdd manufacturers.
17:18 Juerd This is the only reason they still produce these things :)
17:19 Juerd Then don't pick ext3.
17:19 Juerd You have a dozen filesystems to choose a good one from.
17:19 Juerd If ext3 doesn't fit your need, choose another.
17:19 * kolibrie thought he had a working 5 1/4" floppy drive, but seems to spin forever now, instead of reading the disk
17:19 Juerd I still have 5.25" floppies in a shrink wrapped box.
17:19 * liz6 remembers that as a feature of FastBack
17:19 Juerd No drive for them, though :)
17:20 xinming Juerd: HDD installation for Xp is also a big pain, I ever met one don't know to run smartdrv before installation, the copy progress takes over 2 hours.
17:20 Juerd I have noticed by the way that diskettes nowadays are always preformatted. :(
17:21 Juerd smartdrv?
17:21 Juerd Huh?
17:21 Juerd That kind of stuff is done automagically nowadays, isn't it?
17:21 Juerd I install XP once every few weeks. Always takes less than 45 minutes.
17:21 xinming Juerd: hmm, not too bad in my opinion, they use dm to partition the disk, and dm won't check for sectors.
17:21 Juerd (Then finding and installing all drivers and software, and then configuring it, is what takes the rest of the day...)
17:22 xinming Juerd: hmm, Try hard disk installation, go into DOS, and run winnt :-)
17:22 kolibrie (debian)++
17:22 Juerd debian++
17:22 Juerd ubuntu++ too
17:22 xinming (debian)+++++++++
17:22 Juerd I'm using kubuntu 5.10 on my laptop
17:23 Juerd It's the nicest desktop distro I've experienced so far.
17:23 xinming For reinstallation of Debian, It will only take less than 3 hours after the whole thing configured.
17:23 xinming Juerd: hmm, I prefer pure Debian, :-P
17:23 Juerd 3 hours?
17:23 Juerd xinming: For non-workstations, so do I.
17:23 xinming Juerd: hmm, need to download. :-)
17:23 Juerd Workstations should work, not be pure. Otherwise they'd be purestations :)
17:24 Juerd xinming: By the way. Pure debian: juerd.nl/debianraid
17:25 Juerd It's pure if you use debootstrap :)
17:25 Juerd I don't want a menu driven installer :)
17:25 xinming And now every time I use Windows 98, And I still feeling odd for that I can afford the blue screen...
17:25 Juerd (Takes too long)
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17:27 xinming Juerd: I make a system tar.ball after I installed debian, So, I just need to go into another small Linux tar xf into the spcified partition, :-)
17:28 xinming Why I prefer Linux is because I can use console to come here, and access the Internet while the system is downloading stuff.
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17:29 xinming hmm, I think I should say debian. :-) install red hat 7.3 is also a pain compared with debian.
17:31 xinming ?eval class A is B { method f {1} }; class B { method g { ./f } }; A.g;
17:31 evalbot_7930 1
17:31 xinming what does ./f mean here?
17:31 xinming hmm, a bit confused about the '/'
17:32 kolibrie xinming: ./f was a one-time syntax for $?SELF.f, or something like that
17:32 kolibrie died in p6l after a bitter war
17:33 xinming but still alive in pugs.
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17:33 kolibrie :)
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17:36 svnbot6 r7931 | yiyihu++ | role A { method test { "$?CLASS" }}; class B does A { }; B.new.test should return the "CURRENT" Class name,
17:36 svnbot6 r7931 | yiyihu++ | add the test.
17:37 Juerd xinming: In short: ./method is short for self.method
17:37 Juerd self is probably not yet implemented in pugs, but I'm not sure.
17:38 Juerd xinming: Re the tarball: that'll give you an out of date base system in a few years, and that has tiny but important disadvantages
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17:39 xinming ?eval class A { method t { $?SELF }; A.new.t;
17:39 evalbot_7930 Can't exec "./pugs": Permission denied at examples/network/evalbot//evalhelper.p5 line 46.
17:40 xinming oops
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17:41 xinming Juerd: But debian can seamlessly upgrade to the newest version,
17:41 xinming ?eval class A { method t { $?SELF }; A.new.t;
17:41 evalbot_7931 Error:  unexpected end of input expecting end of input, ";", statements or "}"
17:41 xinming ?eval class A { method t { "$?SELF" }; A.new.t;
17:41 evalbot_7931 Error:  unexpected end of input expecting end of input, ";", statements or "}"
17:41 xinming ?eval class A { method t { "$?SELF" }}; A.new.t;
17:41 evalbot_7931 "<obj:A>"
17:41 Juerd xinming: It doesn't always update everything.
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17:42 Juerd xinming: There's always some level of necessary backwards compatibility.
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17:48 kolibrie Juerd: any hints you can give me so my irssi can notify me of things when I'm on a different screen?
17:48 * kolibrie just read Juerd's irrsi page
17:49 spinclad (ooh, where?)
17:49 kolibrie http://juerd.nl/site.plp/irssi
17:49 spinclad thx
18:13 xinming Juerd: your handsome. :-P
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18:21 Juerd xinming: Really? Thanks :)
18:21 Juerd kolibrie: /hilight
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18:37 kolibrie Juerd: can it give me some visual cue if I'm on a different screen (or how can I set up /hilight -> bell -> visual bell), maybe it's a screen question
18:49 Juerd kolibrie: Set the actcolor
18:50 Juerd kolibrie: That changes the colour of the window number in the [Act: ] part of the status bar.
18:50 Juerd kolibrie: Or do you mean screen(1) windows?
18:51 Juerd kolibrie: If so, write a Perl script to match incoming lines and echo a \a
18:51 kolibrie Juerd: actcolor looks very nice, didn't know about that
18:52 kolibrie Juerd: and yes, I always run under screen(1)
18:52 Juerd What do you mean by "a different screen"?
18:52 Juerd I'm sure you mean window, not screen, but which window? Screen's window, or irssi's window?
18:52 kolibrie screen's window
18:53 Juerd Then you will need a real bell
18:53 Juerd Which irssi doesn't do
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18:54 kolibrie so, I'd need something that echos an \a if a hilight matched, which would sound the bell, which screen would capture and turn into a visual bell?
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20:19 Juerd kolibrie: Well, it doesn't have to be a visual bell
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20:20 Juerd kolibrie: Screen warns in the form of "21:08 < Gerrit> hoi Anakinzero
20:20 Juerd 21:10 -!- Anakinzero [~Anakinzer@ip54566d41.speed.planet.nl] has joined #autsider
20:20 Juerd Fuck
20:20 Juerd I hate broken copy/paste.
20:20 Juerd Okay, I'll be non-lazy and type it.
20:20 Juerd kolibrie: Screen warns in the form of "Bell in window 0"
20:21 kolibrie Juerd: I see those sometimes, but miss them often
20:21 Juerd It keeps them visible for only a short while.
20:21 Juerd I don't know if that's configurable
20:22 kolibrie right now, I just have to check my irssi window from time-to-time, if I remember.  I'd just like something that can get my attention, if I want to give it
20:23 Juerd I use a separate terminal for irssi :)
20:23 Juerd So I don't have that problem
20:23 Juerd I use screen anyway, but this screen primarily for irsi.
20:24 kolibrie then you just poke that terminal out at the bottom, so you can see the [Act ] bar?
20:25 Juerd No, my terminals are all in the same Konsole window
20:25 Juerd It has a tab bar.
20:25 kolibrie does it show other tab activity somehow?
20:25 Juerd I shift between terminals a lot (shift-cursorleft and shift-cursorright), so I automatically see the irssi window from time to time.
20:25 Juerd It can, but I don't use that feature
20:26 Juerd Computers get too annoying when they constantly grab your attention.
20:26 kolibrie that is true
20:41 wolverian hooray, my new thinkpad!
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20:50 Corion I blamed GHC 6.2 in http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=507854 for the compilation errors. Is that correct?
20:56 Juerd wolverian: Congratulations!
20:56 Juerd wolverian: Model?
20:58 wolverian Juerd, R51
21:00 Juerd Good :)
21:00 wolverian it's not a graphics monster, but I don't need one :)
21:01 Juerd Uhhuh
21:04 integral Corion: you're right about pugs requiring 6.4.1 at least
21:14 Corion Cool :) Have a nice localtime all
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21:26 svnbot6 r7932 | fglock++ | * ext/Perl6-Value-List - updated to new p6 syntax.
21:26 svnbot6 r7932 | fglock++ |   new bug - it seems like some methods can't be called from outside the Class - see output of 'pugs -Ilib t/array-lazy.t'
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21:27 jabbot liz6: autrijus was seen 2 days 3 hours 26 minutes 45 seconds ago
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21:39 masak ?eval ((1&2)|(3&4)) + ((5|6)&(7|8))
21:39 evalbot_7932 6
21:40 masak that's not what my pugs said...
21:40 masak it said ((((6 | 7) & (7 | 8)) | ((8 | 9) & (9 | 10))) & (((8 | 9) & (9 | 10)) | ((10 | 11) & (11 | 12))))
21:40 masak 'course, i prefer 6... :)
21:40 wolverian evalbot doesn't understand junctions very well yet.
21:41 masak wolverian: oh. i thought evalbot was pugs, more or less
21:42 wolverian masak, it is, just somewhat broken.
21:42 masak ok
21:43 masak in this particular case, i have all sympathy for evalbot. i cannot parse the above mega-junction either
21:44 wolverian well, it's correct. :)
21:45 masak i don't doubt it :)
21:45 masak it's just that i cannot visualize it very well
21:45 masak one-level junctions are ok
21:45 masak but not deeper ones
21:46 eric256 ?eval ((1&2)|(3&4)) + ((5|6)&(7|8)).perl
21:46 evalbot_7932 1.0
21:46 eric256 ?eval ((1&2)|(3&4)) + ((5|6)&(7|8))
21:46 evalbot_7932 6
21:46 eric256 ?eval 1|2
21:46 evalbot_7932 1
21:46 eric256 ?eval (1|2).perl
21:46 evalbot_7932 "(1 | 2)"
21:46 wolverian I think he just picks the first element in the junction
21:46 wolverian wow, that worked
21:46 eric256 "he" doesn't do anything
21:46 eric256 just (eval " ").perl
21:46 eric256 in a perfect world ;)
21:47 eric256 ?eval (((1&2)|(3&4)) + ((5|6)&(7|8))).perl
21:47 evalbot_7932 "((((6 | 7) & (7 | 8)) | ((8 | 9) & (9 | 10))) & \n (((8 | 9) & (9 | 10)) | ((10 | 11) & (11 | 12))))"
21:47 eric256 ?eval ~(((1&2)|(3&4)) + ((5|6)&(7|8)))
21:47 evalbot_7932 "10"
21:47 eric256 ?eval ~(((1&2)|(3&4)) + ((5|6)&(7|8)))
21:47 evalbot_7932 "10"
21:47 eric256 ?eval (((1&2)|(3&4)) + ((5|6)&(7|8)))
21:47 evalbot_7932 6
21:47 eric256 i have no idea why its getting six. lol
21:48 masak maybe it numifies the string representation of the junction :)
21:48 theorbtw1 It's the first element.
21:49 masak yes, but why?
21:53 Juerd 22:46 < wolverian> I think he just picks the first element in the junction
21:53 Juerd wolverian: Conceptually, there is no first element.
21:54 wolverian yeah.
21:55 Juerd ?eval (1&2)|(3&4)
21:55 evalbot_7932 1
21:55 Juerd ?eval (99&2)|(3&4)
21:55 evalbot_7932 2
21:56 Juerd ?eval (99&3)|(3&4)
21:56 evalbot_7932 3
21:56 Juerd ?eval (99&4)|(3&4)
21:56 evalbot_7932 3
21:56 Juerd It picks the least element.
21:56 masak weird
21:56 Juerd Testing things using sequential numbers isn't really a good idea.
22:02 wolverian Juerd, do you know if the ibm active protection functions in linux?
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22:32 Juerd wolverian: Since 2.6.14; I haven't tried it yet.
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23:51 cognominal_ Juerd, I have a folder with almost 100 papers named in the format:   "year -- authors -- paper title" like 2 1992 -- Phikip Wadler -- The essence of functional programming.ps
23:52 cognominal_ are you interested do get them in a public place in feather?
23:53 cognominal_ they are about compilation, function programming, type theory. subject that will probably matters to perl6 people
23:54 eric256 has left

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