Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-11-15

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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07:30 azurot1 web app, graph, you give it a band name, it shows you similar artists? any idea of the name?
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08:21 wolverian good morning
08:22 azurot1 morning
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11:27 buu ?eval my $x = [1,2,3]; for( $x ) { print }
11:27 evalbot_7953 is now known as evalbot_7956
11:27 evalbot_7956 OUTPUT[] undef
11:27 buu =[
11:27 buu Wtf?
11:27 buu ?eval my $x = [1,2,3]; print $x;
11:27 evalbot_7956 OUTPUT[123] bool::true
11:27 buu ?eval my $x = [1,2,3]; print ref $x;
11:27 evalbot_7956 OUTPUT[Array] bool::true
11:28 buu ?eval my $x = [1,2,3]; for( @$x ) { print }
11:28 evalbot_7956 OUTPUT[] undef
11:28 buu ?eval my $x = [1,2,3]; for( @$x ) { say $_ }
11:28 evalbot_7956 OUTPUT[1 2 3 ] undef
11:28 buu ?eval my $x = [1,2,3]; for( $x ) { say $_ }
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11:32 theorbtwo Morning
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11:44 wolverian ?eval for [1..3] { say }
11:44 evalbot_7956 OUTPUT[ ] undef
11:44 wolverian ?eval for [1..3] { say $_ }
11:44 evalbot_7956 OUTPUT[123 ] undef
11:44 wolverian oh well :)
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15:00 Limbic_Region hmmm - all is quiet on the frontier
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15:10 pdcawley Is ^ the new ¢?
15:11 Limbic_Region I seem to recall $larry indicated that it might be a suitable replacement
15:13 * Limbic_Region is still looking through the "new sigil" thread to see if he recalls correctly
15:14 Limbic_Region nope I didn't
15:14 Limbic_Region Eric wrote: Actualy i think ^ might be my favorite so far.
15:14 Limbic_Region to which Larry replied
15:14 Limbic_Region I thought that, too, until I realized it wouldn't work as an rvalue:
15:16 pdcawley Do we know what it's *actually* going to get called? ISTR that ongoing discussion of that lead to the conclusion that it could be made to work as an rvalue, at the expense of something else not quite working.
15:16 pdcawley Of course, now I can't find the bloody messages.
15:16 Limbic_Region to be quite frank, at 97 messages deep, I stopped paying attention to the thread
15:16 pdcawley Thee and me both.
15:21 Limbic_Region I know this is an awful thing to say, but I really hope that Pugs and Parrot get to the point where they have working implementation of everything specced to date and can say come on @larry - your holding up progress
15:22 * Limbic_Region ducks after mentioning he is severly under the weather and may or may not be in his right mind
15:25 pdcawley Oh, absolutely.
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15:25 pdcawley I do rather admire Larry's ability to avoid nailing anything down until the last possible minute, but...
15:26 theorbtwo ...but sometimes there are a distinct lack of last possible minutes.
15:27 pdcawley Heh.
15:27 pdcawley His knack of finding the underlying complexity is also bloody useful, if a little hard to follow sometimes.
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15:39 Limbic_Region well - the thing that is terribly frustrating is a simple straight forward question doesn't get answered with a simple straight forward response - a thread is allowed to spin off into tangents having little to nothing to do with the original question
15:40 Limbic_Region I am not suggesting moderation
15:40 Limbic_Region I wouldn't want to hamper creativity
15:41 Limbic_Region it would just be nice that once a thread finally dies to have some from @larry write a summary response of the thread about all the things that were pulled out that were decidely good and decidely bad
15:41 Limbic_Region as well as a position on the original question
15:41 Limbic_Region pointing someone to a 97 message thread when the same question gets raised a month from now doesn't do anyone any good AFAIC
15:45 theorbtwo I think rather easier to implement would be some sort of community tagging system.
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15:53 xinming seen autrijus
15:53 jabbot xinming: autrijus was seen 1 days 9 hours 45 minutes 56 seconds ago
15:55 pdcawley Limbic_Reason: Propose it on the list?
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16:07 PerlJam bah!
16:07 PerlJam Limbic_Region: come back!
16:07 * PerlJam trys the summoning charm
16:09 PerlJam If someone is around when he comes back, tell Limbic_Region that just because a thread dies on p6l, doesn't mean anything was resolved.  It may be that @Larry are still working on it and they don't /know/ what was good or bad yet.
16:10 dakkar is autrijus on-line?
16:11 xinming dakkar: I don't think so, He might be at work
16:11 dakkar ok, I'll manage
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16:18 theorbtwo Xinming: "He" is lowercase in English except when refering to godlike creatures, or at the beginning of a sentance, BTW.
16:19 theorbtwo PerlJam: True enough, I suppose, but it does seem often as if at least a tentitive decision has been reached, and nobody notices because it's buried deep in a thread that most people have long sinced ceased to care about.
16:20 PerlJam theorbtwo: seems xinming used "He" appropriately because he was referrint to autrijus :-)
16:21 PerlJam theorbtwo: The problem is that all decisions are tentative and other, seemingly unrelated things, can cause them to change.
16:23 ajs_ Actually, "He" is only capitalized in english when refering to monotheistic deities. For example, you would say, "Zeus wanted to approach without causing alarm, so he became a swan."
16:24 PerlJam theorbtwo: It's like this--most of us are looking at things "in the small".  We're focused on one particular bit of syntax or feature set or whatnot.  @Larry, and particularly $Larry, has to make sure that things work "in the small" and "in the large".  It's that whole-language viewpoint that prevent decisions from being easy or final or whatever and thus a little bit vague for us mere mortals.
16:24 theorbtwo ajs: He is also properly capatalized when refering to kings.
16:24 ajs_ Yes, that's correct. Forgot about that one.
16:25 dakkar has left "ma tornerò!"
16:25 * PerlJam imbues autrijus with god-like powers of capitalized pronouns.
16:25 theorbtwo Yeah... but it would be nice if there was some place to look and see "this is what we think today".
16:25 theorbtwo Need to put away groceries, BBIAB.
16:26 PerlJam theorbtwo: What makes you think that would be nice?
16:26 ajs_ Is that "autrijus does CapPronouns" or "autrijus but CapPronouns"? Do we get a new developer with all of autrijus' productivity, but uppercase He, or just a modification in usage?
16:28 PerlJam "Here's the amorphous pulsating mass of our thought right now.  Never mind the bits sticking out at odd angles or the localized warped laws of physics.  Oh, and BTW  Here Be Dragons, so caveat transitus"  or something like that.
16:30 xinming PerlJam: Thanks for pointing out the mistake I made. >_<, hmm, In my understanding. the sentence after a ',' is indicated finished. So, I will upper case "he"
16:30 xinming xinming dakkar: I don't think so, He might be at work
16:30 xinming clear? there is a ',' after so. :-P
16:31 * xinming is considering if he need to change all ',' into '.'
16:31 theorbtwo Comma is a pause within a sentance, not a seperator between sentances.  Sometimes things can be either -- but you should either use a period and a capital, or a comma and lowercase.
16:31 PerlJam xinming: sentences are terminated with . (period).   Commas (,) are used as a pause
16:33 xinming hmm, ok, for this example. `So, i will go` or `So, I will go` which is correct by the way?
16:33 theorbtwo "I" is always uppercase in English, including in "I'll".
16:33 PerlJam xinming: For some reason unknown to me, the pronoun "I" is always capitalized.
16:34 xinming got it, thanks. :-)
16:35 ajs_ How much optimization will be allowed for chained "but"s? Will intermeditate metaclasses get folded? Is that legal?
16:36 PerlJam ajs_: I've always thought the chained buts would be like the other "listfix" operators and you'd get exactly one new class created (i.e., there are no intermediate classes)
16:38 theorbtwo OTOH, I'd simply say that it seems like a legal optimization, in as much as the intermediate classes would have been inaccessable anyway, and thus there is no way to tell if they were optimized away or not.
16:38 ajs_ So that's a yes on folding. Ok, good. That's what made sense to me, but in some strange cases, there are semantic differences, so I wasn't sure if it was going to be legal.
16:38 theorbtwo Can you give me an example where there would be a semantic difference?
16:41 ajs_ theorbtwo: Well, any time there is behavior associated with instantiation, you'll get differences based on the number of times it's called. Remember that semantically, those buts are instantiating a new metaclass, class and object.
16:41 ajs_ Ew... and I think you have to call destructors on the intermediate objects too...  gah
16:42 theorbtwo Ugh.
16:42 theorbtwo Yeah, you're right.
16:42 theorbtwo It'd be a nontransparent optimization.
16:42 ajs_ Where if we just declare that chained buts are always subject to folding at the compiler's whim, you are not bound by those rules.
16:44 ajs_ I'll fire that off to p6l for confirmation
16:44 theorbtwo Exactly.
16:44 theorbtwo OTOH, Larry saying things like print **1... being gaurnteed to use up your memory as a side effect /scare/ me.
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17:19 PerlJam theorbtwo: why?
17:20 PerlJam perl has to build the list somewhere.  The RAM made available by the OS seems a good place to do that :)
17:22 r0nny yo
17:25 theorbtwo PerlJam: It's not allowed to detect "hey, somebody just told me to steamroll an infinite list", and die without trying to eat infinite memory?
17:26 PerlJam theorbtwo: it could ... but that's an optimization  ;-)
17:33 xinming http://tnx.nl/php
17:34 * xinming feels lucky for that he didn't learn PHP.
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17:42 skugg xinming: don't. it's wonderful for learning by elimination.
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17:59 Andy hi kids
18:00 obra Hey andy
18:01 Andy Hey, Mr. Project Manager!
18:01 Andy I just got pinged by an editor at a publisher looking for dates on P6.
18:02 theorbtwo Andy: Floating-point seconds since the beginning of Jan 1, 2000.
18:02 obra theorbtwo: on, not in ;)
18:02 obra Andy: what sorts of dates are they looking for?
18:02 Andy Do you know what the latest is about the Perl 6 release? Do you have a                                              
18:02 Andy best-guess release date? Is it this year? Some time next year?  
18:02 obra And how much are they looking to pay to get a set schedule?
18:02 obra So. We're looking to deliver a first-class language at an incredibly low price.
18:03 obra You can guess which variable we have to play with.
18:03 theorbtwo If $publisher is interested in Perl 6 comming out sooner, they should hire Larry to work on perl 6.
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18:05 obra Seriously, though, there's lots of good stuff happening on Parrot and PGE
18:05 obra But I don't feel that speculating on dates when we don't have funding commitments is in anybody's best interests.
18:06 xinming :-)
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18:07 xinming Andy: No matter how much the publisher paid. I don't think perl 6 will be release with the schedule date.
18:08 xinming s/with/within/
18:09 Limbic_Region theorbtwo - I am not so sure their interest in making it come sooner
18:09 Limbic_Region I think the interest is more in approving new books on p5 and when to start approving books on p6
18:10 theorbtwo Yeah, I also figured more that they want to know when more then they want it to be soon.
18:10 Limbic_Region there are several books out now covering p6 and likely they will all be mostly useless when the first alpha release comes out
18:10 Limbic_Region well of course they want to time supply with demand - that's just common sense
18:11 sili good old p6...
18:11 theorbtwo 1;
18:11 xinming Limbic_Region: agreed. :-)
18:11 theorbtwo But the best way to know when something will happen is to make it happen.
18:12 theorbtwo (Thus the PR problems with market-based predictions on terrorisim and the like.)
18:12 * Limbic_Region is on the phone
18:19 * Limbic_Region is back but sees that the conversation is dead
18:20 Andy Back
18:21 Andy Nobody is asking for "coming out sooner."
18:21 Andy Just estimated dates, if any.
18:21 Andy If the answer is "we have no idea", then the answer is "we have no idea."
18:21 obra Right. And that's what I won't do. I know better.
18:21 Andy What won't you do?
18:21 obra estimate a release date.
18:21 Andy You're saying you won't put an estimated date on it?
18:21 Andy OK.
18:21 Andy So the answer is "No, we don't have any dates."
18:22 obra Right.
18:22 Andy That's what I'll relay back.
18:22 obra Ok
18:24 Limbic_Region Andy - the FAQ used to have an estimated release date
18:25 obra The best parallel I can think of is Mozilla
18:25 obra Took them long enough to get a decent 1.0 that everyone had completely written them off.
18:25 Limbic_Region I see that it has been removed - likely because it said 3rd quarter 05
18:25 Andy Do you have anything that you WOULD be willing to throw a date on?
18:25 Andy Some milestone that they can hang a hat on?
18:26 Limbic_Region Andy - TPF has milestones associated with the stuff that grants were given for
18:26 Andy TPF = me.
18:26 obra Right. and those milestones are work-based, not date based.
18:26 Andy That's why I'm asking this.
18:26 * Limbic_Region knows that
18:26 obra We've moved away from date-based milestones.
18:26 Andy ok
18:26 obra Because they weren't possible to accurately estimate with the resources we have.
18:26 Limbic_Region oh I know I know
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18:27 obra It's largely a volunteer project.
18:27 Limbic_Region you could always use the Pugs timeline image
18:27 Andy obra: You don't have to explain all this to me.  I understand the problems.
18:27 obra Right. then why are you asking the question?
18:27 Andy Because I wanted to know if you had dates.
18:28 Andy I'm not saying "Dammit, Jesse, gimme some dates."
18:28 Limbic_Region oh, you is the collective Pugs team?
18:28 obra Actually, you are.
18:28 Andy I'm not!
18:28 * Limbic_Region was just saying that even if Pugs/Parrot were to have all the functionality currently spec'd, we would still be waiting on @larry to finish the design
18:29 Andy I asked if you had some.  You said no.  I'm fine with that.
18:29 Andy I asked if there were any on milestones that were not "Perl 6 is done", you said no.  I'm fine with that, too.
18:29 obra no. you asked if there were dates for those milestones.
18:29 obra we've got milestones.
18:29 Andy Right.
18:29 Andy And you said no there were no dates.
18:30 Andy And I'm fine with that.
18:30 Andy I'm really not demanding dates.
18:30 Andy It would be absurd if I were to presume to do so.
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19:02 theorbtwo pdcawley: Thanks for the summary -- it was a good one.
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20:40 Limbic_Region seen autrijus
20:40 jabbot Limbic_Region: autrijus was seen 1 days 14 hours 33 minutes 19 seconds ago
20:40 Limbic_Region hmmm - any FP fanatics out there may enjoy the inciting of a holy war - http://perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=450922
20:48 SamB we don't do holy wars.
20:48 SamB unly pure wars!
20:48 SamB also lazy wars.
20:48 * Limbic_Region chuckles
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20:50 xinming I love peace, So keeping away from the war...
20:51 xinming These wars is tedious, I ever met a person who only knows about Windows, and said the market will tell us which is better. :-/
20:55 SamB well, in lazy wars nobody ever gets around to doing any fighting
20:55 SamB and in pure wars nobody can do anything, because if they did it would be impure
20:56 SamB I suppose maybe we could bring ourselves to have monadic wars
20:59 theorbtwo We can warp the structure of time, but only if we can fail?
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22:28 dduncan so, regarding the utility changes I made yesterday ... is everything still working fine and/or working better following the changes, 'make' and 'make smoke' ... any issues I should know of?
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