Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-11-17

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Time Nick Message
00:00 luqui Perl is multicultural, which means people come from all sorts of backgrounds
00:00 luqui some people would use hyphens, other underscores
00:00 dbrock sure, but it would all mean the same thing
00:00 luqui and that's not the kind of thing humans remember easily (did this module use a hyphen or an underscore?)
00:00 dbrock people indent differently too
00:00 luqui oh, you're proposing that _ and - are interchangable?
00:00 dbrock that's exactly what I'm proposing
00:01 luqui sub foo-bar ($x) { say $x }    foo_bar(42);  # says 42
00:01 dbrock right
00:01 luqui okay, well, that kills that concern
00:01 SamB dbrock: I hope you don't propose that foo-bar_baz be allowed!
00:01 dbrock SamB: in fact, I do
00:01 luqui SamB, why not?
00:01 luqui nobody would do it
00:01 dbrock I sometimes use _foo-bar-baz myself
00:02 SamB luqui: you have a point there
00:02 dbrock (where the leading underscore usually means "internal" or something like that)
00:02 luqui dbrock, well, as far as I can tell, the proposal seems harmless
00:02 luqui but it's a taste issue, so you'll come up against a lot of opposition
00:03 dbrock great, thanks for being open-minded :-)
00:03 luqui also we probably wouldn't allow - to be the first character in the identifier
00:03 dbrock that sounds sensible
00:03 luqui because people like to crunch their unaries up against their names
00:03 dduncan personally I think that no characters in ids should be substitutable for others
00:03 dduncan if you're going to go that route, then you might as well make A = a as well
00:03 luqui dduncan, that is another point.  canonicalization is a pain
00:04 dbrock Lisps have been case-insensitive for, like, ever
00:04 luqui Larry says "Lisp has all the visual appeal of oatmeal with fingernail clippings mixed in"
00:04 dduncan lots of languages are case sensitive, and being case sensitive is more expressive
00:04 luqui so you probably won't get anywhere arguing that Lisp did something syntactically
00:04 dduncan SQL gives you a choice of being sensitive or insensitive
00:05 dduncan bareword identifiers in SQL are insensitive, delimited identifiers are sensitive
00:05 dduncan if you want to compare one of each type, then an insensitive matches as an uppercase sensitive
00:06 luqui dduncan, but do you also think that we shouldn't have more than one way to print something to the screen?
00:06 dduncan I don't want perl to be case insensitive for identifiers, by default
00:07 luqui dduncan, you seem to have a lot of opinions.  please back them up :-)
00:07 dduncan being able to print is a matter of a choice of what function you call ...
00:07 dduncan not whether pr_int is interpreted as pr-int or vice versa
00:07 dduncan its a separate issue
00:08 dduncan I don't like two different characters automatically being equivalent
00:08 luqui dduncan, but you also have the choice of saying $foo.meth(arg) or meth $foo: arg
00:08 dduncan not the same thing
00:08 luqui how so?  they may feel different to you, but I really can't see much different
00:09 dduncan if I declare my_func(), I don't want someone saying my-func() to result in that one's invocation
00:09 luqui the latter form was introduced to help readability.  maybe in some situations hyphens are more readable than underscores
00:09 luqui (for instance, I loathe writing BNFs with underscores)
00:09 dduncan if the - is accepted, it should be a different function name
00:09 luqui dduncan, that has many more problems
00:09 dduncan as I recall, BNFs use dashes
00:09 luqui exactly
00:09 luqui but perl 6 has rules
00:09 luqui and you have to use underscores in those :-)
00:10 dduncan but BNFs also have delimited identifiers
00:10 dduncan eg,
00:10 dduncan <foo> ::= <bar-thing> BAZ
00:10 dduncan identifiers have the <>
00:10 luqui so do perl 6 rules
00:10 luqui but you can't use - because it's an identifier
00:10 luqui you can say rule foo {...}  and refer to &foo
00:11 dduncan I should point out that people generally use underscores in place of "spaces"
00:11 dduncan dashes likewise
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00:12 dduncan they are word separators, when whitespace isn't allowed inside an identifier
00:12 luqui yeah
00:13 luqui anyway, I think it's a bikeshed issue
00:13 dduncan so if we're going to allow underscore and dash to be interchangeable, then the collection should be conceptually a space
00:13 dduncan kind of like how several whitespace chars are conceptually a \n
00:13 luqui dduncan, yeah
00:14 luqui I think that's what dbrock is arguing for
00:14 dduncan if we don't think of those as spaces, then simply dash for underscore seems to arbitrary to be accepted
00:14 dbrock dduncan: in natural language, hyphens join words; identifiers are joined words
00:14 luqui and it makes sense that they should be interchangable
00:14 dduncan so maybe have a substitutable character class called word-joiner, which includes, dash, underscore, etc
00:15 luqui because nobody seems to know how to use hyphens correctly
00:15 stevan luqui: ping
00:15 luqui did you really need to ping me?
00:15 stevan yes :)
00:16 stevan luqui: so I have been reading about SML Functors, which is makeing theory.pod seem less insane
00:16 luqui what are SML functors?
00:16 stevan and I am pondering some kind of Functor like device for the core Object Space stuff
00:16 stevan Standard ML
00:16 luqui right, I don't know SML
00:16 stevan hmm...
00:16 * stevan looks to see if he can find a link
00:17 stevan they are basically the basis of SML's module system,... which is quite nice and very powerful
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00:18 luqui ack
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00:19 dduncan what causes all that, exactly?
00:19 dduncan all the mass leave and join
00:19 luqui maybe freenode is moving us around
00:20 dduncan not all of us ... I wasn't told that I left and rejoined the room
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00:22 dbrock hmm, I didn't notice anything
00:22 dbrock I guess my IRC client "conveniently" hides that stuff
00:22 dbrock did you get the last two messages I adressed to you, dduncan?
00:22 dduncan dbrock, my list says you were one of those 20-30 who left and rejoined
00:23 dbrock okay
00:23 dbrock dduncan: in natural language, hyphens join words; identifiers are joined words
00:23 dbrock dduncan: do you think of "foo_bar" as "foo followed by underscore followed by bar", or do you just think of it as "foo followed by bar" and infer from context (Perl culture) that underscore is used to separate them
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00:23 dduncan not that that should matter
00:23 stevan_ luqui: sorry,... had to tuck the kids in
00:24 stevan_ luqui: SML's module system is basicall 3 components... signatures, structures and functors
00:24 dduncan dbrock, as I wrote earlier, I consider both _ and - to both be word separators ... humans would use spaces
00:24 stevan_ signature are just that,.. signatures
00:24 stevan_ structures are basically a grouping of functions, datatypes, etc
00:25 dduncan dbrock, see 13 mins ago, where I said that
00:25 stevan_ and functors (and I am still grokking them,... so I may be a little off here) are parametric structures
00:25 luqui ahh
00:25 stevan_ they are very similar to your theory/model/etc
00:25 luqui theory.pod is really modeled after Haskell's type classes, with more dynamism built in, but maybe we use ML's functors as an extension of parameterization to modules
00:25 dduncan anyway, I've said what I wanted to on that subject
00:26 dbrock dduncan: that's what I replied to
00:27 dbrock so since you consider both of them to be word separators, doesn't it make sense for them to be synonymous?
00:28 dduncan that's what I think they are conceptually, but I don't necessarily think Perl should consider them the same ...
00:28 dduncan as I said, bring this matter up on p6l and see what they say
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00:29 stevan_ luqui: so if you have a moment I would like to discuss how I see these functors, theories and roles fitting together
00:29 luqui sure
00:29 dduncan dbrock, suffice it to say that I'm willing to accept this change if @Larry endorse it, but I don't plan to propose it to them myself
00:29 luqui I might be a bit laggy, as I'm pugs hacking too
00:29 dbrock dduncan: I'm writing the post as we speak
00:30 stevan_ luqui: ok
00:30 dduncan attaboy
00:30 dbrock dduncan: okay, that's great
00:30 stevan_ so ,.. the ObjectSpace work has centered around getting a core set of "things" which are needed in order to bootstrap the metamodel
00:30 dduncan strictly by myself, I'm on the fence on the issue
00:31 stevan_ it basically works, the only issue is that these core "things" are not meant for "userland"
00:31 luqui mmk
00:31 stevan_ and the metamodel expects these "things" in it's method parameters and returns them from said methods as well  
00:32 stevan_ my initial thought was to wrap the metamodel post-bootstrap using Roles
00:32 stevan_ the Roles would then handle all the boxing/unboxing needed
00:32 stevan_ but this feels ugly
00:33 stevan_ the next idea (which is actually robkinyon's idea) was to have two signatures,.. one for bootstrapping, the other for userland,.. and boxing/unboxing would probably be assumed to "just work"
00:34 stevan_ This felt like more work than I wanted to undertake
00:34 luqui hmm
00:34 luqui the role thing sounds very right to me, actually, but go on
00:34 stevan_ so my last thought.. is the Functors
00:35 stevan_ if I wrap all the core "things" in some kind of module signatures/functors, then I can program "to the interface" rather than the implementation
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00:36 luqui how is that different from roles?
00:36 stevan_ then we would provide some kind of "bridge" between the functors/signatures and Roles
00:36 stevan_ they are not all that different actually
00:37 stevan_ the key is to find a clean way to bridge the gap between core-runtime and userland
00:37 stevan_ of course,.. all this made me think about theory.pod again,.. hence why I am bugging you :)
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00:39 luqui to me, the native types in the metamodel are the unnamable "classes" of theory.pod
00:39 luqui they do roles, and they have instances, but you can't actually talk about them
00:39 stevan yes, but I am talking about one level deeper than that
00:39 stevan the primative bit, num, str types which make up the metamodel
00:39 luqui yeah
00:39 luqui those are the classes
00:40 luqui or am I misunderstanding something?
00:40 stevan they are not classes, they are the building blocks which we use to make classes
00:41 luqui I don't think we're on the same page
00:42 stevan the unnameable classes thing I see as a language level issue,.. because even if p6 userland can't see them... the runtime must be able to
00:42 luqui hm... the runtime
00:42 luqui that's up to the runtime :-)
00:43 luqui I was thinking that just because we use num and str to build classes that they can't themselves be classes
00:43 luqui I mean, you could smack a vtable on to them and make them just like any other concrete thing
00:43 stevan well I was seeing that as being roles
00:44 stevan role Str { ... do things with str primitive ... }
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00:44 stevan so the Roles basically function as the Box in "boxed types"
00:45 stevan does that make sense?
00:45 luqui hmmm.... sortof, but not really
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00:45 luqui how can a role be a box
00:45 luqui a role just defines the shape of a vtable
00:45 luqui if you want to talk implementation level
00:45 stevan vtable?
00:45 stevan vtables are sooo C++ :P
00:46 luqui vtables are soo fast
00:46 luqui compared to string lookup like p5
00:46 stevan so how exactly are you viewing the classes?
00:46 stevan structurally?
00:47 luqui you mean the bootstrappy primitive classes or the language concrete classes?
00:47 luqui you must mean the latter
00:47 stevan yeah
00:47 luqui an opaque pointer
00:47 luqui just some stuff behind a black box
00:48 luqui and you can ask it for its role vtables
00:48 luqui and then call the role vtable methods
00:48 luqui (in Haskell, the compiler fills in the role vtables)
00:48 luqui (so you don't even have to ask; but full type inference is not a luxury we have)
00:49 stevan but vtables (IIRC) are really just compiled "caches" for method lookup
00:49 stevan Perl 6 is far to dynamic for this IMHO
00:49 stevan we would end up with more code dealing with the cache than it would take to deal with dynamic lookup on demand
00:49 luqui don't think of a vtable like that
00:49 stevan ok
00:50 luqui a vtable is an object that specifies how some opaque thing does a role
00:50 stevan ok
00:50 luqui "this method is implemented here, that method is implemented there"
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00:51 luqui type classes (i.e. theories) provide a nice way to do that for multimethods
00:51 stevan so all "classes" are an opaque pointer with an attached vtable which itself is just a set of pointers to functions somewhere
00:51 luqui er, not quite
00:51 luqui so, when I say Foo{^T}   # pretend ^T is some concrete type that we weren't allowed to name
00:52 luqui I'm asking the compiler whether Foo is instantiated for ^T
00:52 stevan ok
00:52 luqui if the answer is no, then there's a type error (you can think of this stuff happening at runtime, too, though)
00:52 luqui but if the answer is yes, it's not just a plain old yes
00:53 luqui the answer is the vtable for *how* ^T does Foo
00:53 luqui So there is a vtable for every (type,role) pair, as long as the type does the role
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00:53 luqui at least conceptually...
00:53 luqui er, semiconceptually...
00:53 stevan does the vtable have implementation? or just the signature?
00:54 luqui the vtable is precisely the implementation
00:54 stevan ok
00:54 luqui (or it points to the implementation somewhere else)
00:54 stevan I am not sure this is a good basis for the metamodel
00:54 luqui possibly not
00:54 luqui hmm...
00:54 stevan it sounds a lot like Java/C++ etc, which are not known for their flexibility/extensibility
00:55 luqui well, this doesn't preclude looking up methods by name
00:55 stevan and makes classes and roles into "things" which the runtime needs to supply
00:55 luqui stevan, uh, didn't it have to do that anyway?
00:55 stevan nope :)
00:55 luqui or do you mean that the metamodel should provide them instead?
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00:56 stevan the metamodel only needs a basic opaque type
00:56 stevan which has a pointer to it's "parent" (or class if you like), and room to hold some data
00:57 luqui so this could be the opaque pointer...
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00:57 stevan that,.. along with a very basic sendmsg primative and you can build Classes and roles from it
00:57 stevan yes, it could
00:57 stevan but classes are just another instance
00:57 stevan of Class
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00:57 stevan they are not anything special
00:58 luqui well, perhaps the vtable view is still too high-level
00:58 stevan the same building blocks could be used to build any metamodel (prototype if you like)
00:58 luqui I don't think anything is saying that the vtable couldn't be implemented by some lower-level machinery within the metamodel
00:58 stevan oh, it is implemented in the metamodel,.. but it is not attached to the opaque type (at least not as directly as I think you were talking about)
00:59 stevan but actually ....hmmm
00:59 stevan if we look at your vtables as being the "module signatures" I was talking about
00:59 stevan this all fits together
01:00 luqui side note, do you know how to force rebuilding of the precompiled prelude?
01:00 luqui without recompiling the rest of pugs?
01:00 stevan no idea,.. but i suspect make clean would do it
01:00 luqui yeah, that kills the latter goal :-)
01:00 stevan or delete the compiled code (if it exists seperately)
01:01 stevan the vtables/module-signatures could be a primitive form of Roles
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01:03 stevan and if we apply them to the metamodel "things" as well as the core "things" as well, hmmm
01:04 luqui could you try to explain a module signature again?
01:05 stevan ok,.. a function has a signature,.. its parameters (and their types) and its return value (and it's type)
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01:06 stevan a module signature is basically like that, but for modules
01:06 stevan so the module has the following functions in it, and here are thier signatures
01:06 stevan then there is some mechanism by which the signature "hides" the implementation
01:07 stevan think about downcasting in Java
01:07 luqui downcasting?
01:07 stevan or upcasting I forget which
01:07 * luqui has so little Java experience... he is so proud
01:07 stevan :D
01:08 stevan ok,.. in java,.. you have a collection,. it returns items,.. those items are types as Object cause Java sucks
01:08 stevan so you need to cast those Objects into the things you want them to be
01:08 stevan sometimes though it make sense to cast them into an interface instead,.. so you end up programming just to the interface, and not to the actual concrete impl
01:08 luqui ahh.  that sounds like "downcasting" is the right word
01:09 stevan ok
01:09 stevan so,.. think of that in a non-OO sense
01:09 luqui yeah, that makes sense
01:09 luqui and actually, that is the basis for allomorphism, and it is a principle I hold quite dearly
01:10 stevan :)
01:10 luqui I don't think it should be possible to hard-code a particular implementation
01:10 stevan you and chromatic both
01:10 stevan me either
01:10 stevan my other motivation for this is to be able to easily swap out runtimes like PyPy does
01:10 stevan so have the FlowObjectSpace , etc etc
01:11 stevan if I wrap all my primitive "things" into these signatures/interfaces/whatever then I program "to" them,.. and not the impl
01:11 stevan make sense?
01:12 luqui yep
01:12 stevan good :)
01:12 stevan does this fit closer to what you talking about in theory.pod?
01:13 luqui I think so
01:13 stevan I think the main difference is that I am not talking about multis here
01:13 luqui I think we've been basically thinking the same thing all along, but just talking circles around it
01:13 stevan of course :)
01:13 luqui are you talking methods?
01:13 stevan you say theory, I say functor,...
01:14 stevan I am not sure exactly what I am talking about re: multis & methods
01:14 stevan you say model and I say modal
01:14 luqui :-)
01:14 stevan to-may-toe, to-mah-to
01:14 stevan etc etc etc
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01:14 luqui I say toe-mah-two
01:15 * stevan stops singing old jazz standards
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01:15 * luqui starts
01:15 luqui damn you!
01:15 stevan LOL
01:16 stevan ok,.. you be Ella and i will be Louis
01:16 luqui incidentally, I'm listening to Ella atm
01:17 * stevan is listening to really great Joy Division bootleg,.. which doesn't match well with Ella/Louie really :)
01:17 stevan Ella++ though :)
01:18 stevan ok,.. so I will mess around with this module sig thing and see what I get
01:18 stevan then maybe we can shoehorn it into the theory.pod ideas
01:18 stevan or vise versa
01:18 stevan in the meantime I suggest you read up on ML's module system.. it may be very enlightening
01:19 * stevan digs for a good link for luqui  
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01:19 * luqui will
01:19 * luqui has been meaning to learn ML/OCaml for a while
01:19 * stevan has always loved ML even though he has never programmed anything in it :)
01:20 luqui it should be fairly easy to learn now that I'm comfortable with haskell
01:20 stevan yes, Haskell "comes from" ML IIRC
01:21 luqui it is about as related to ML as Perl is to C
01:21 stevan yeah
01:21 stevan on the same side though
01:21 luqui Perl and C are fairly related...
01:21 stevan the more dynamic side being LISP/Scheme, and the "typed" side being ML, Haskell, etc
01:22 luqui ahh, in that respect Perl isn't that close to C
01:23 stevan luqui: http://www.diku.dk/users/tofte/publ/oregon/
01:23 luqui *click*
01:23 stevan grab the ps
01:26 luqui what's with the circumflex on "secondary ro^le"
01:27 stevan ?
01:27 luqui on the first page
01:28 stevan no idea
01:28 stevan bad typesetting maybe
01:29 stevan this is not bad,.. very high level  and doesnt cover functors -> http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/stg/NOTES/node95.html
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01:34 luqui ?eval multi sub foo ($x) { say "one" }  multi sub foo ($x, $y) { say "two" }  foo(3);  foo(3,4);
01:34 * justatheory shoehorns steven.pod
01:34 evalbot_7959 is now known as evalbot_7961
01:34 evalbot_7961 OUTPUT[one two ] bool::true
01:34 justatheory er,stevan.pod
01:34 stevan :)
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02:46 robkinyon luqui: ping
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02:54 luqui robkinyon, pong
02:55 robkinyon mind if I throw a few thoughts onto the fires of the metamodel/theory discussion you just had with stevan?
02:55 luqui yes I mind!  Geez, what do you think, we're open minded or something!?
02:55 robkinyon stevan didn't explain my thoughts very well (which isn't surprising because I didn't explain them to -him- very well)
02:55 robkinyon LOL
02:55 robkinyon Basically, my idea is that the runtime provides, at a minimum, one primitive - the opaque instance.
02:55 luqui we were both having trouble explaining our thoughts
02:56 robkinyon This instance provides two messages : get( primitive) -> primitive and set(primitive, primitive) -> primitive
02:56 robkinyon with the guarantee that set( P, Q ) implies that get(P) -> Q
02:56 luqui where primitive is like str or num or something?
02:56 robkinyon anything you want
02:56 robkinyon (Literally)
02:57 luqui hmm
02:57 luqui okay, go on
02:57 robkinyon So, to get the metamodel, you need two other primitives - Block and Signature
02:57 robkinyon Block is a unit of work (a la function/sub/method/etc), plus its associated lexical environment.
02:57 robkinyon Block is a closure
02:58 luqui the lexical environment can be simulated, but that's beside the point
02:58 robkinyon Signature provides what it says - a list of types that can be accepted and a list of types that will be returned
02:58 luqui or, I guess that would be the runtime's job to simulate it
02:58 robkinyon My hands a waving a smidgeon
02:58 robkinyon it's assumed that the runtime can and will provide these items
02:58 robkinyon or, that a wrapper can be written between the metamodel and the runtime to fill in the gaps
02:59 robkinyon (From the metamodel's perspective, the wrapper becomes the runtime)
02:59 robkinyon So far so good?
02:59 luqui I think so
02:59 luqui go into a little more detail about "signature", please
02:59 luqui that is, according to the runtime, what is a "type"?
03:00 robkinyon According to the runtime, a type is a primitive
03:00 robkinyon So, it's two lists of primitives
03:00 robkinyon You'll see in 3 seconds why it needs to be a primitive
03:00 robkinyon so far so good?
03:01 luqui okay
03:01 robkinyon so, we have 3 mandatory primitives - Opaque, Block, and Signature
03:01 robkinyon the runtime can now provide any number of optional primitives (string, int, float, bit, etc)
03:01 luqui and Type
03:01 robkinyon No - Type is not a primitive
03:01 luqui robkinyon: According to the runtime, a type is a primitive
03:02 robkinyon Ignore the current runtime
03:02 luqui I was just quoting you, but okay
03:02 robkinyon No - the runtime defines "type" to be "any primitive I know about"
03:02 robkinyon sorry - i misspoke.
03:02 luqui oh, okay
03:03 robkinyon Now, the metamodel continues along its merry way as Stevan has handled it
03:03 robkinyon attributes are easily handled - opaque.set( name, value ) and opaque.get( name )
03:04 luqui what is "name" if you don't have string?
03:04 robkinyon Whatever primitive you want it to be
03:04 robkinyon this model doesn't do much if you don't provide other primitives
03:04 robkinyon it just doesn't specify what other primitives you have to provide
03:04 robkinyon So, if the runtime only provides Int, then all your names and values are Ints
03:04 luqui .... oh...kay.  remember the goal is to implement perl 6 on top of this
03:05 robkinyon Well, the Perl6 runtime will provide String, Int, Float, Bit, List, Hash ... and this model will simply handle them
03:05 robkinyon The metamodel doesn't need to know about those primitives
03:05 robkinyon (There's a userland on top of the metamodel, which enforces language policy.)
03:06 robkinyon The userland is an important concept to keep in the back of your mind - we'll need it in about 5 minutes
03:06 luqui okay
03:06 luqui then continue
03:06 robkinyon So, attributes are handled sanely
03:06 robkinyon Methods are also handled sanely - opaque.get( methodname ) retrieves the Block
03:06 robkinyon opaque.get( Block ) retrieves the Signature for that Block
03:07 robkinyon So far so good?
03:07 luqui yep
03:07 luqui so opaque is kind of like a generic hash
03:07 robkinyon Then, you just invoke the Block with the appropriate Signature and the method call occurs
03:07 robkinyon opaque is whatever the runtime wants it to be, so long as it responds to set(primitive,primitive) and get(primitive) -> primitive
03:08 robkinyon The metamodel doesn't want to know
03:08 luqui robkinyon, think in terms of algebra
03:08 robkinyon Ok ... ?
03:08 luqui nobody cares what the real numbers are, as long as they satisfy all the properties that the real numbers do
03:08 robkinyon exactly what I'm getting at
03:08 luqui opaque *behaves* like a generic hash
03:08 robkinyon fair nuff
03:08 robkinyon yes - it behaves as a hash that can take any primitive as a key
03:09 robkinyon there is no auto-conversion between the primitives - this is also important
03:09 robkinyon If I set a key Int == 2 and another key Float == 2, they are different keys
03:10 luqui alright
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03:11 robkinyon Now, the metamodel goes ahead and defines Class, class, Object, etc.
03:11 robkinyon Just like it always has
03:11 luqui it uses strings pretty prolifically IIRC
03:12 robkinyon stevan's might have, and the final P6 one probably will as well, but that's userland policy, not a metamodel requirement
03:12 luqui okay
03:13 robkinyon Now, every primitive provided by the runtime, except for Opaque (and possibly Block and Signature), is boxed up by a class of the appropriate name
03:13 robkinyon So, the String primitive is boxed by String, the int primitive by Int, etc.
03:13 robkinyon Actually, Signature has to be boxed, as well.
03:13 robkinyon It needs to be in order to handle the full range of P6 signatures
03:14 robkinyon Another class Type is created, to handle the P6 types
03:14 luqui Signature will probably be something completely different from the metamodel's Signature
03:14 robkinyon The userland Signature will most definitely be different than the runtime Signature
03:14 luqui so it's not so much "boxed" as "reimplemented".  anyway, continue.
03:14 robkinyon However, it makes sense for the userland Signature to box the runtime Signature so that it can mediate between the two
03:15 robkinyon yeah - boxing === reimplementation to some degree, in my mind
03:15 luqui ... alright
03:15 robkinyon So, now - when a method gets called, the metamodel checks the parameters passed against the userland Signature(s) for that method
03:15 robkinyon if there's a problem, it throws an error right there - the runtime is never involved
03:17 robkinyon So, type-checking P6 types is the responsability of the metamodel in conjunction with the userland.
03:17 robkinyon They may be the same thing, or not - it's unclear which is the better approach
03:18 luqui I seem to be unclear on something:
03:18 robkinyon go on
03:18 luqui what is the metamodel's responsibility?
03:18 luqui what is it supposed to be implementing?
03:19 robkinyon It implements the framework to handle classes/objects/method dispatch/etc.
03:19 robkinyon everything stevan's was doing
03:19 luqui yeah, I know, I just wasn't sure how far-reaching it is supposed to be
03:19 robkinyon I don't think that was ever decided
03:20 luqui "as much as we can cleanly theorize" :-)
03:20 robkinyon "As much as makes sense for something else to not handle"
03:20 robkinyon right now, i think it's the garbage pile
03:20 robkinyon or that drawer in your kitchen that doesn't have a name
03:20 luqui Isn't the garbage pile the responsibility of the garbage collector? :-)
03:21 robkinyon LOL
03:21 robkinyon it's the kitchen sink
03:21 robkinyon stevan's started to discuss the idea of a userland which implements language policy, and i think that's a very important distinction to make
03:21 robkinyon I'd argue that "userland" is really very close to PGE
03:22 robkinyon and PGE (or whatever other grammar engine is used) may or may not convert everything into calls into the metamodel
03:22 robkinyon Which is partly why i didn't want to agree that strings are very important - it may be useful to have a PGE extension that doesn't use strings as method names
03:23 luqui by PGE you mean the compiler?
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03:23 robkinyon the compiler/lexer/semantic'er/etc
03:23 luqui It's probably best to separate your concerns there
03:23 robkinyon it's whatever facility will allow me to redefine the language at runtime
03:24 luqui I don't think the parser has much at all to do with the metamodel
03:24 luqui at runtime?
03:24 robkinyon fair enough
03:24 robkinyon it's the thing that converts my statements into useful P6 constructs
03:24 luqui that's compile time, no?
03:24 * robkinyon is a little fuzzy on some details
03:24 robkinyon I thought I would be able to redefine syntax in a lexical scope
03:24 luqui yeah, that's a compile time operation
03:25 robkinyon ok
03:25 luqui anyway, I guess that's not your area of expertise :-).   Go on with the metamodel.
03:25 robkinyon well, i think that whatever-it-is is really close to the "userland" concept stevan and i are starting to bandy about
03:25 robkinyon it enforces what constructs are legal from a language perspective
03:26 robkinyon the metamodel provides constructs to the userland to be used as it sees fit
03:27 robkinyon i'm not concerned with a lot of the metamodel constructs - that stevan's gig
03:27 robkinyon my focus in this discussion is the mediation between the metamodel and the runtime
03:28 robkinyon and how that percolates up to the userland
03:28 luqui The details are fuzzy... and I have to go to bed.
03:29 luqui I'd recommend creating a diagram or writing something up more formally
03:29 luqui so you can cover your bases
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03:29 robkinyon ok
03:29 robkinyon i'll see what i can come up with
03:30 luqui night
03:31 luqui thanks, btw.  we need more theorists 'round here; TSa, Stevan and I never fight about anything
03:31 robkinyon LOL
03:31 luqui which means we probably aren't doing the right thing
03:31 robkinyon stevan's been pulling me into this kicking and screaming
03:31 robkinyon i think he hired me just so he could bounce this stuff off of me
03:32 luqui makes sense
03:32 luqui sayonara
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04:51 Khisanth there is a typo in perl5/README :)
04:53 dbrock can someone help me understand the humor in this quote?
04:53 dbrock    "premature optimization is the root of all evil"
04:53 dbrock - Tad McClellan in clpmisc, "Re: Whats the variable holding the dir seperator?"
04:54 Khisanth why do you think there is humor in the quote?
04:56 rep supposedly that quote is really from Donald Knuth
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05:01 dbrock Khisanth: because someone had it in their signature
05:02 dbrock so, strictly speaking, we're not specifically looking for humour per se, but rather "reasons why someone would find the quote interesting enough to put in their signature file"
05:03 Khisanth it is highly agreeable :)
05:04 dbrock rep: oh, I thought it was Hoare
05:05 rep dbrock http://www.cookcomputing.co​m/blog/archives/000084.html
05:05 dbrock Khisanth: well, sure, but then why attribute the quote to a Tad McClellan in some newsgroup, specifying the exact topic under which he said it?
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05:06 rep so i guess you're right :)
05:06 dbrock C.A.R. Hoare's name is Tony?
05:07 rep uhm
05:08 dbrock ah, the A is for Anthony :-)
05:09 dbrock Sir Charles Antony Richard Hoare (Tony Hoare or C.A.R. Hoare, born January 11, 1934) is a British computer scientist, probably best known for the development of Quicksort, the world's most widely used sorting algorithm, in 1960. [...] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._A._R._Hoare>
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10:11 svnbot6 r7962 | gaal++ | livecd fixes:
10:11 svnbot6 r7962 | gaal++ | * work around debian's magic db not having ext2(!?)
10:11 svnbot6 r7962 | gaal++ | * a few typos / better diagnostic messages
10:11 svnbot6 r7962 | gaal++ | * make a few more options configurable from the command line
10:11 svnbot6 r7962 | gaal++ | * bump up the size (should this be automated?)
10:12 rafl gaal: WTF is Debian's magic db?
10:13 gaal file some_file
10:13 gaal somefile: text
10:14 gaal file pugs
10:14 gaal pugs: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV), for GNU/Linux 2.2.0, dynamically linked (uses shared libs), stripped
10:14 gaal file initrd.img
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10:14 gaal initrd.img:      # oops, ext2 isn't there :(
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11:27 theorbtwo file -sk /dev/hda1 # /dev/hda1: \012- Linux rev 1.0 ext3 filesystem data (needs journal recovery) (large files)
11:27 theorbtwo Interestingly, without -k, it just gives me emptystring.
11:27 theorbtwo (I don't have any plain ext2 around.)
11:30 wolverian wow, file is _really_ verbose about NTFS filesystems
11:41 SamB wolverian: heh
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13:15 Juerd How many tests does Pugs have?
13:16 Juerd Is there a way to find out without running the entire suite?
13:16 rafl Juerd: If all tests have a plan it isn't that hard.
13:17 Juerd I don't know if they do.
13:18 rafl I guess most of them do.
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14:08 robkinyon rafl: Run them - there should be a final count at the end.
14:08 robkinyon Errr ... Juerd: Run them
14:08 robkinyon it shouldn't take -that- long. :-)
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15:02 gaal Juerd: you can look at existing smokes on smoke.pugscode.org
15:03 gaal also, our Test.pm doesn't have no_plan, so yes, they all have a plan.
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15:06 gaal seventeen .ts (or so) have programmatically determined plans.
15:07 gaal (that's only in t/.)  r7962 has 8663 tests (including ext/.)
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15:16 gaal also, since Test.pm has an explicit plan function and not something like Test::More tests => nnn, you could hack a version of it to do 'sub plan ($n) { say $n; exit }' and then run the whole test suite. That'd be pretty fast (especially if you precompile this hacky Test.pm . ;-)
15:17 Juerd gaal: I've already had a look; There are more than 8000, and that's a number I can use :)
15:17 Juerd I actually did a grep|perl
15:20 gaal yup
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15:24 svnbot6 r7963 | iblech++ | t/builtins/control_flow/die.t: Added tests for die() in primitive constrol
15:24 svnbot6 r7963 | iblech++ | structures (map,grep,for,etc.). (See
15:24 svnbot6 r7963 | iblech++ | http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-list​s/perl5-porters/2005-11/msg00189.html.)
15:24 svnbot6 r7964 | iblech++ | util/perl6.vim: min and max should be highlighted in the same way as
15:24 svnbot6 r7964 | iblech++ | map,grep,sort,reduce etc. are (consider min { abs $_ } @numbers).
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15:46 Limbic_Region am I the only one noticing that nmake realclean; svn up; perl Makefile.PL; nmake takes two tries to get through the build on Win32 cause GHC runs out of heap?
16:03 Limbic_Region and the abyss was silent
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16:05 Limbic_Region well that, and has anyone notices that Pugs is S-L-O-W on Win32
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16:43 svnbot6 r7965 | stevan++ | Perl6::ObjectSpace -
16:43 svnbot6 r7965 | stevan++ | * a rough sketch of the module/functor idea in API_sketch.pod
16:43 svnbot6 r7965 | stevan++ | * a basic (really badly done) code gen for the s-expr metamodel
16:43 svnbot6 r7965 | stevan++ | * added method::params and method::signature (they just inherit
16:43 svnbot6 r7965 | stevan++ |   from their closure counterparts)
16:43 svnbot6 r7965 | stevan++ |     - fixed the tests which deal with these
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17:21 r0nny re
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17:31 gaal Limbic_Region: you can increase heap size in config.yml (perl Makefile.PL after editing it)
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17:31 gaal Limbic_Region: you can increase heap size in config.yml (perl Makefile.PL after editing it)
17:32 gaal as for slowness, d'you think it's slower than on linux?
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17:32 Limbic_Region right - I saw that in the IRC log, was just relogging back in to say thanks
17:33 Limbic_Region gaal - I can't get to feather from here, but it took a full 8 seconds to run a trivial piece of code
17:33 * Limbic_Region really hates this client since when you get disconnected you have no way of knowing it
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17:35 Limbic_Region gaal - I haven't been keeping up with compiling pugs after every revision and testing its speediness but I would say that it is magnitudes slower then the last time I checked it
17:35 * Limbic_Region needs to wander off
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21:14 svnbot6 r7966 | autrijus++ | * remove unneccessary System.Process import in Pugs.Embed.Pugs.
21:14 svnbot6 r7967 | autrijus++ | * After "make install", do not warn about "make register"
21:14 svnbot6 r7967 | autrijus++ |   if it's actually implicitly done by the install target
21:14 svnbot6 r7967 | autrijus++ |   (as is the usual case for DESTDIR-less situations)
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21:32 svnbot6 r7968 | autrijus++ | * oops, squash a redundant 'make register' message
21:32 svnbot6 r7968 | autrijus++ |   from pure_vendor_install target.
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