Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-11-21

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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08:49 j0sephi http://picasa.hu/fresh.php :)
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14:01 wolverian who the heck thought that the Gnome C API documentation is adequate for the Perl bindings? sigh
14:01 wolverian </grumble>
14:02 webmind a moron :)
14:03 webmind what are you trying to do ?
14:04 wolverian a simple editor/project tree with gtksourceview and GnomeVFS
14:04 webmind k
14:05 Limbic_Region must be too early in the morning - I saw that entire conversation between wolverian and webmind as one individual talking with themself
14:06 gaal it is always too early in the morning. except for when it's too late at night
14:06 rafl wolverian: The bindings map the C API quite closely, so I think they are.
14:07 wolverian rafl, I obviously disagree. maybe it's because I haven't used the C bindings or the Perl bindings before.
14:08 rafl wolverian: The only think you'll need to get used to is to know on which layer of abstraction you can find the methods/signals/properties you want.
14:08 rafl wolverian: Then the POD docs will be quite useful.
14:10 wolverian right.
14:10 wolverian what the heck - I see Gnome2::VFS::Monitor in the docs but not on CPAN
14:11 rafl The PODs are generated at built time and therefor not indexed on CPAN.
14:11 wolverian well, it's not in the Ubuntu libgnome2-vfs-perl package either. but maybe I just need to install it from CPAN, then.
14:12 rafl wolverian: The POD docs are included in Debians libgnome2-vfs-perl (which I also maintain).
14:12 wolverian I mean the module itself.
14:13 rafl Debian sid has the same version as Ubuntu dapper
14:13 wolverian yeah, I'm on dapper. weird
14:15 wolverian oh, maybe I'm misunderstanding how it works
14:15 rafl As far as I see the packages are pretty much identical.
14:15 wolverian am I supposed to do 'use Gnome2::VFS::Monitor;' at all?
14:15 rafl No. They are all glued into one shared object that's loaded when you use Gnome2::VFS
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14:16 rafl perl -MGnome2::VFS -MData::Dumper -e'print Dumper(\%Gnome2::VFS::Monitor::)'
14:18 wolverian right. thanks a lot. rafl++ # has patience with dumbasses like me
14:19 rafl wolverian: np. Can you tell me what's in the Maintainer field of that package? I'd like to know if they use the same packages that HE and I provide for Debian. But it isn't listed on the webpages..
14:22 wolverian Maintainer: Gtk2-Perl Maintainers <pkg-gtk2-perl-maintainers@lists.alioth.debian.org>
14:24 rafl OK, then they simply use our packages..
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14:49 fglock hi all!
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14:51 Limbic_Region salutations fglock
14:53 fglock hi Limbic_Region
14:53 fglock I've been away for too long - I hope I can come here more often now :)
14:54 Limbic_Region we hope so too
14:54 * Limbic_Region wonders if $larry has used his commit bit yet
14:56 fglock I'm trying to writing down my view of the implementation of "lazy"
14:57 integral Limbic_Region: I've seen it happen twice!
14:58 Limbic_Region good, that means he is actually using Pugs which means he will be writing p6 code and get frustrated when it doesn't work and that will mean he will write tests and update design docs so that stuff can be implemented
14:58 Limbic_Region this is a "good thing"
14:59 luqui he is also learning haskell, so he can hack on the internals (or... probably not)
15:00 Limbic_Region luqui - personally, I would rather he be hacking on the p5 parser if that isn't finished yet
15:00 Limbic_Region but anything/everything he does is appreciated
15:01 luqui right, his energy is best used elsewhere
15:04 fglock I'm trying to figure out what "Generator" is. It looks like it is the low-level implementation of Lazy-list
15:04 fglock I don't think I understand completely what's the difference between List and Array
15:06 fglock I'm trying to understand it in this context: http://groups.google.com/group/perl.​perl6.language/msg/6c306a1b0b885b5a
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15:07 Limbic_Region fglock - sorry I can't help.  luqui is much more in a position to distinguish between what is a List and what is an Array
15:10 fglock This part make sense to me - Larry said: "there's really no such thing as a List.  The basic list types  are actually Eager and Lazy, and an Array conveniently contains one of each"
15:11 luqui fglock, the biggest difference between Array and List is that Lists are immutable
15:11 luqui but other than that, it's kinda fuzzy
15:11 luqui I mean, I could tell you which is which in a given context, but I couldn't really tell you why
15:12 luqui so, maybe it's just fuzzy to me
15:13 fglock removing "generator" and "list", and using "eager" and "lazy" - it works to me; this maps to the actual implementation in p5 backend
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15:15 fglock I'm not comfortable with "Lists are immutable". "Lazy" is not immutable - you can "pop" and "shift" from it
15:16 fglock I mean, it is an iterator, and the state changes each time you access it
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15:19 * Limbic_Region finds the idea of popping/shifting a list nauseating
15:20 Limbic_Region my $second = (1..10)[3]; # is fine
15:20 Limbic_Region my $first = shift (1..10); # is not
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15:22 fglock when you say (1..10)[3] it is a slice operation - Lists don't do that (I think), so it is actually an Array operation. The "shift" is an error because the Array is read-only (again, I think so)
15:23 Limbic_Region fglock - in p5 lists do that and as I said, I am not qualified to distinguish between lists and arrays in p6
15:28 luqui fglock, you don't pop from lists
15:29 luqui you can think of it this way:  get the list out of the array, and then put it back in to the array without its final element
15:29 luqui in perl 5, a list is rougly the thing that a function returns when it returns multiple values
15:29 luqui you can put it into an array, but you can't pop from the list of return values directly
15:30 luqui in perl 6 we'd like to make such a list an object
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15:32 fglock luqui: (1..10)[3] operates on an anonymous array?
15:32 fglock which contains an eager list
15:33 fglock (bbiab)
15:40 dvtoo are lists mutable?
15:40 luqui that's what we're arguing
15:40 dvtoo oh, I see, sorry
15:40 luqui no problem
15:41 Limbic_Region (1..10)[3] working on an anonymous array bothers me
15:41 luqui fglock, I never said that you can't subscript a list
15:41 Limbic_Region it implies I can take a reference to it
15:41 Limbic_Region and keep it around
15:41 Limbic_Region and change it
15:47 fglock Limbic_Region: (1..10) is a List, but (1..10)[3] is an Array slice, which point to a read-only scalar - if you try to assign (1..10)[3]=4 it will be an error because you are trying to assign to a read-only scalar
15:52 luqui fglock, that is a very perl5esque way to think of it.  do you think that it's clean?
15:53 luqui it doesn't feel clean to me...
15:53 luqui but that may just be me
15:53 luqui oh, wait, you're wrong :-)
15:54 luqui perl -ce '(1..10)[3] = 5'
15:54 luqui Can't modify list slice in scalar assignment at -e line 1, at EOF
15:54 luqui            ^^^^^^^^^^
15:58 Juerd A "List"?
15:58 luqui what about it?
15:58 Juerd Still doesn't make sense to me.
15:58 Juerd If it needs to be an object, it can be an Array.
15:58 Juerd List as a type feels weird.
15:59 luqui I think there really is a logical distinction there
15:59 luqui but to clarify things more (or perhaps muddy them up)
15:59 luqui List is what Larry is calling theory.pod's Tuple
15:59 Juerd I think it's great if a list cannot be referenced or stored directly.
15:59 luqui so it has a little bit more structure than an array has
15:59 Juerd Ahh, that explains things.
15:59 Juerd Then "List" is an even much worse name.
16:00 Juerd Or list context needs renaming.
16:00 luqui the latter is quite possible
16:00 luqui "flattening context" may be better
16:00 Juerd I still quite like singular vs plural
16:00 luqui as context names
16:00 Juerd Then flat context, please :)
16:00 luqui ?
16:00 Juerd flattening is too much typing ;)
16:01 Juerd Yes, as context names.
16:01 luqui you wouldn't have to type it
16:01 luqui you type it as *
16:01 Juerd In code, sure.
16:01 Juerd But think of IRC, Perl Monks, usenet.
16:01 Juerd :)
16:01 luqui heh
16:01 Juerd I like that Perl has nice, short jargon.
16:01 luqui singular vs. plural is pretty good too, though
16:01 Juerd And that's the main argument against singular vs plural too.
16:01 Juerd singular is too long :)
16:02 luqui I'm rather irked by "form" and "part", however, but for the most part I agree
16:02 Juerd But item versus plural is assymmetric
16:02 Juerd part should be group anyway...
16:02 Juerd What does form do again?
16:03 luqui group's pretty good.  I don't see the problem with "partition".  It's not like this is an extremely common combinator
16:03 luqui form is from Perl6::Form, the formatting module
16:03 luqui two more letters and it suddenly makes sense
16:03 Juerd Partition, as a verb, feels weird to me as a non-native speaker.
16:03 Juerd I've never used it.
16:03 luqui oh.  well, I have..
16:03 Juerd Oh, form is a stupid name indeed. Format++
16:04 Juerd I hadn't considered the module, as it's, well, a module :)
16:04 luqui yeah.  I don't really care, as I'll never use it
16:04 Juerd But I'd like part to be group, personally.
16:04 luqui something about Damian's interfaces really bug me
16:05 Juerd I will use it, but wouldn't dislike Perl6::Form::form even, because I don't use it more than once per year.
16:05 * Juerd has actually used Text::Reform last week.
16:05 Juerd Much to my own surprise too.
16:05 Juerd Can you define what bugs you?
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16:06 Juerd I think they abuse arrays and hashes too much. (i.e. give them special meaning and thus turn [] and {} into non-array and non-hash syntax)
16:06 luqui well, they're made to be "dwimmy", but I always, always, have to go to the documentation to use them
16:07 luqui and sift through pages of special cases to find out if the thing I'm passing it will be interpreted specially
16:07 Juerd So do I, but that's mostly because I don't use it often enough.
16:07 luqui well, I've used Parse::RecDescent in more than ten different places (rough estimate), and I still have to use the docs a lot
16:07 Juerd And yes, it would be nice to also have concise reference documentation in addition to the tutorial-like prose.
16:08 Juerd That, again, has to do with weird syntax :)
16:08 luqui and yet, I've only used parsec once, and I'm already documentation free
16:08 Juerd Syntax mustn't be too free-form.
16:08 luqui and forget about Text::Balanced
16:09 luqui quite awkward indeed
16:09 Juerd T::B uses $&, which doesn't feel right, even though it is optimized now.
16:09 luqui well, the whole "in scalar context, it changes the string, but only when it's a reference, and only if you're not an Aquarius"
16:10 Juerd I had a constant stream of mixed feelings while reading PBP. A totally new experience for me.
16:10 Juerd Heh.
16:10 luqui "in list context, it returns a list of these five hundred things, the 313th and the 27th of which you will actually need"
16:10 Juerd Let's hope boolean named arguments will quickly spread as the much better practice. :)
16:10 * luqui hopes so
16:11 Juerd Damian's interfaces are /complete/ though. It's hard to find something he hasn't obviously thought about.
16:11 luqui that's true
16:11 luqui his modules do *everything* in the domain
16:11 Juerd Yep
16:11 luqui so I guess it's hard to pack all of that into a concise interface
16:12 Juerd Hard, but not impossible.
16:12 Juerd But it may require words.
16:12 Juerd And words are scary. Or something.
16:12 luqui which he is opposed to :-)
16:12 luqui anyway, time for a shower, to go to school, and to stop ripping on Damian's excellent modules
16:13 * luqui &
16:14 Juerd Bye
16:14 Juerd Have fun at school.
16:15 * Juerd always finds it hard to imagine what intelligent people do in school... :)
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16:15 luqui work our asses off writing essays about the Russian Revolution to appease the particular professor's tastes
16:16 luqui oh, thanks
16:16 * luqui &
16:18 rafl Juerd: Usually nothing. At least in my experice. :-)
16:20 Juerd My current vision is that school is there to help people learn, and thus unnecessary if you are already able to discover new things by yourself.
16:20 Juerd This very probably has to do with my own lack of education, but that doesn't really challenge the statement.
16:23 integral Juerd: one useful thing it offers is access to professors/readers/lecturers/researchers who have used the stuff a lot.
16:24 Juerd Yes, that is nice.
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16:24 Juerd Should be possible without the organized education attached to it, though.
16:25 integral the organization helps pay them...
16:25 Juerd Invent subscriptions
16:26 integral there's all the people who complain the journals are subscription based :-/
16:26 Juerd I think it's natural to pay to see someone speak.
16:27 Juerd And subscriptions are the only low-cost way to enable that over longer terms.
16:28 integral hmm, and it's possibly natural to group several speakers together, and organised several week's worth of lectures from them; then to organise some question handouts,  and then at the end the opportunity to get a certificate of participation...
16:28 Juerd On the matter of not-paying, though, I really really really hate that the LPW overlaps with something I had already planned to attend.
16:28 Juerd What would you nead a certificate of participation for?
16:29 Juerd I'd be there for the knowledge and wisdom, not pride or proof.
16:29 integral to prove to an employer that you've gone and gathered some wisdom...
16:29 Juerd Oh, right. Employers.
16:29 Juerd Haven't been in that situation yet, unfortunately.
16:30 integral Oh, or we could just let the state pay us, comrade...
16:30 Juerd That would be best, of course, but it might severely decrease the quality.
16:31 rafl Juerd: You can attend to the next GPW!
16:31 rafl Juerd: It even isn't that far than last year for you.
16:31 Juerd Where will it be held?
16:31 Juerd And when?
16:32 rafl Juerd: perlworkshop.de
16:32 rafl Juerd: I hope you speak some german. The page is only partially translated.
16:32 Juerd Ah, should have googled.
16:33 Juerd I can read German.
16:33 Juerd Not speak, but that shouldn't be necessary for browsing a site :)
16:33 rafl Fine.
16:33 rafl Indeed.
16:33 Juerd Weiter ist der Deutsche Perl-Workshop für Teilnehmer sehr kostengünstig.
16:33 Juerd Do you happen to know exactly how kostenguenstig it will be? :)
16:33 Juerd Or roughly
16:34 Juerd Is last year's fee a good indication?
16:34 rafl Juerd: Here's Bochum, btw: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bochum
16:35 rafl Juerd: afaik around 50EUR.
16:35 rafl Juerd: Not sure though. That's maybe the students price.
16:35 Juerd I'm a student, officially.
16:36 rafl Juerd: Then it's definitly not more than 50EUR. Maybe less.
16:36 Juerd I'm not motivated or doing anything about it, but I am registered with the dutch open university.
16:36 Juerd Since a few months.
16:36 Juerd Oh, that's reasonably west, so certainly drivable.
16:37 Juerd I can be there in 2 hours
16:37 Juerd I could even sleep at home :)
16:37 rafl Juerd: Great, I need some place to sleep ;-)
16:37 Juerd Haha
16:37 Juerd That would be weird.
16:38 Juerd Attend a conference *in another country* and sleep in your own... :)
16:39 rafl Juerd: You might also want to attend at the next Chemnitzer Linux Days. It's just after the Perl workshop (sat,sun). iblech want's to give a Perl 6 talk there.
16:39 Juerd Hmmm
16:40 Juerd Interesting
16:40 rafl And even cooler things like a Debian Day, that I'm forced to organize.
16:40 rafl I also have a warm place to rest for you as I live in Chemnitz.
16:40 Juerd Where is Chemnitz?
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16:41 rafl Quite in the east of Germany. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemnitz
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16:42 rafl autrijus: Maybe you want to join as well when you're in Germany for the GPW anyway? :-)
16:42 Juerd Oh, that's very east.
16:42 rafl Juerd: Well, still drivable.
16:43 Juerd 5 hours!
16:43 rafl Even by bike. I will probably do that.
16:43 Juerd But, I guess, doable.
16:43 Juerd What kind of "bike"?
16:44 Juerd Motorcycle, or human powered?
16:44 rafl Juerd: Not sure yet. Depends on the weather. A racing bike or an mountain bike.
16:44 rafl Juerd: A human powered, of course. :-)
16:44 Juerd 500 km by bicycle...
16:44 Juerd In 1 day?
16:45 elmex has joined #perl6
16:45 rafl And a night.
16:46 Juerd ...
16:46 Juerd That's, ehm, tough. :)
16:46 Juerd My max is 100 a day. And then I'm dead.
16:46 rafl Juerd: I actually like long bike trips. Fichtelberg - Kap Arkona for example (~600km)
16:46 Juerd And that's in .nl, so the flattest immaginable.
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16:47 Juerd Hm, and not long after this Chemnitz thing, there's Cebit, that I'd like to visit anyway.
16:48 Juerd I could consider a longer stay in Germany.
16:48 Juerd How's Germany for nature camping?
16:48 rafl Juerd: biking in .nl isn't that cool. To breezy. If I climb up a mountain I can proudly say that I climbed it up, but always cycling against the wind isn't cool, imho.
16:49 rafl Juerd: Camping is fine. And for the Linux Day I can even offer indoor camping
16:49 Juerd Believe me, wind conquering pride does exist here. Every day when I cycled home. :)
16:49 Juerd I don't know if pitching a tent indoors is a great idea :)
16:49 Juerd But then, the tent isn't really necessary even :)
16:50 rafl You don't even need a tent. Cool, eh? :-)
16:50 Juerd I like the idea of going to Germany next March, and staying there a while.
16:51 Juerd It'll depend on financial resources, though.
16:51 rafl Juerd: I'd be happy
16:51 Juerd There's another thing in Germany, in December, that I'm probably not going to, because I'm short on cash.
16:51 rafl What other thing?
16:51 Juerd CCC conference
16:52 rafl I'll be there as well. But it's expensive, yes.
16:52 Juerd I promised some people I'd be there, but it's expensive, my car doesn't run on rain water, and any place to stay is also expensive.
16:52 Juerd I hate camping out in winter, so that's not an option.
16:53 rafl Juerd: I have a cheap place for you to stay in Berlin. Several even.
16:53 Juerd Tell me more :)
16:53 rafl At a friend of mine, Sven Guckes.
16:54 wilx has joined #perl6
16:54 Juerd I recognise the name, but have no idea where I saw it before.
16:55 rafl Maybe in context with vim or screen. He has a command line fetish (like I have).
16:55 wilx`` has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
16:55 rafl Or mutt-ng or the grml live distro
16:55 Juerd I use vim and screen, so that could be it.
16:55 Juerd Command line fetishes are good.
16:55 rafl Indeed.
16:55 Juerd Though I admit slowly getting to like konqueror as a file manager
16:56 Juerd Its kpartview doesn't quite beat du -ch
16:56 Juerd Eh, the reverse of that.
16:56 Juerd du -ch doesn't quite beat kpartview.
16:58 rafl I still prefer it over a GUI tool.
17:00 Juerd Hm, FOSDEM is just before the GPW
17:00 Juerd This keeps looking better.
17:00 Juerd It could be a west european geek tour :)
17:01 rafl I've never been to fosdem. What's special about it?
17:02 Juerd I have no idea, but they will be offering LPIC-2 exams
17:02 Juerd At reduced fees :)
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17:05 rafl Is there a linux event that doesn't do that?
17:06 rafl I think you can also do that at the Chemnitzer LT.
17:07 Juerd I see
17:07 Juerd Still, the Geek Tour might be a nice idea.
17:07 Juerd feb 25 FOSDEM Brussels
17:07 Juerd feb 26 FOSDEM Brussels
17:07 Juerd feb 27
17:07 Juerd feb 28
17:07 Juerd mar  1 GPW Bochum
17:07 Juerd mar  2 GPW Bochum
17:07 Juerd mar  3 GPW Bochum
17:07 Juerd mar  4 ChLT Chemnitz
17:07 Juerd mar  5 ChLT Chemnitz
17:08 Juerd mar  6
17:08 Juerd mar  7 Amsterdam.PM Amsterdam
17:08 Juerd mar  8
17:08 Juerd mar  9 CeBIT Hannover
17:08 Juerd Now to find stuff for the four empty days :)
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17:09 rafl Juerd: Will you drive from Chemnitz to Amsterdam and do you have two free seats? :-)
17:10 ingy hola
17:11 xinming Juerd: where is your personal site?
17:14 Juerd rafl: Iff I'm stupid enough to do this, I probably will.
17:14 Juerd xinming: Guess.
17:15 xinming juerd.com doesn't work. :-/ I lost the history. :-/
17:15 rafl Juerd: I'd be stupid enough and the fellow student beside me as well.
17:15 Juerd xinming: Your internet connection is broken. Juerd.com does workforme.
17:16 Juerd rafl: It all mostly depends on how rich I will be by then.
17:16 xinming <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"><html><head><title​></title></head><body></body></html>
17:16 xinming Juerd: That's only page I got using Juerd.com
17:16 Juerd rafl: I have to be able to afford a few weeks without serious work, a lot of fuel, some conferences and places to stay.
17:16 rafl Juerd: I can at least organize some places to sleep in Chemnitz and Bochum.
17:17 Juerd rafl: That helps, yea
17:17 Juerd xinming: Whatever - then try juerd.nl
17:17 Juerd xinming: Still something is broken if juerd.com does not work.
17:17 rafl Juerd: Well, maybe we could also cut it down a bit to be cheaper.
17:19 Juerd Cut what down?
17:19 Juerd Oh, fsck
17:19 Juerd I have to be somewhere in 10 minutes
17:19 Juerd Will you be around later tonight?
17:20 * Juerd runs off
17:20 Juerd afk
17:24 rafl Juerd: Yes, I will.
17:24 rafl Juerd: Cut the trip down. Drop some events.
17:33 pmurias has joined #perl6
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17:52 integral hmm, I wonder if threads are working enough to work around the blocking issue in svnbot
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18:13 pmurias Is there a TODO for pugs?
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18:23 Su-Shee has joined #perl6
18:24 Su-Shee Hi.
18:24 geoffb pmurias, not as such.  There are a few things that hit part of the issue, though:
18:24 dduncan hi
18:24 geoffb 1) tests.  These are filled with todos
18:25 geoffb 2) The 2*PI timeline.  Long scale todos
18:25 geoffb 3) STATUS (probably not completely up to date), has areas of incompletion and current work
18:25 geoffb 4) AES (mostly S) -- these all have to be implemented
18:26 geoffb Probably more, but my brain is not fully engaged this morning
18:26 Limbic_Region pmurias - are you looking to see what is left to be done or looking to see what you can do to help
18:27 Limbic_Region there will be an intersection between the two lists - but they won't be identical
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18:47 Juerd re
18:47 Juerd rafl: Oh, of course :)
18:48 liz6 has joined #perl6
18:50 rafl Juerd: Simply keep me informed about your plans so we can probably meet.
18:50 liz6 has left
18:51 Juerd Oh, that'll probably happen anyway, sooner or later.
18:51 rafl Uhm, where?
18:51 Juerd Time will tell
18:51 Juerd Possibly as soon as CCC.
18:51 Limbic_Region has joined #perl6
18:52 rafl OK, if you need something to sleep there simply tell me.
18:52 rafl And do that soon.
18:52 Juerd I have one client, who owes me a few thousand euros. However, they're allowed, by exceptional contract, to wait until January.
18:53 Juerd rafl: In any case, if I'm coming to CCC, I'll be gone as soon as dec 30, because a big party is thrown for my dad, who will be 60 the next day.
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18:54 rafl Juerd: I think I'll also miss one day. Not sure which, though.
18:54 * rafl changes locations. See you..
18:54 Juerd Bye
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19:04 pmurias Limbic_Region: the second one
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19:06 Limbic_Region pmurias - there is plenty you can do
19:06 Limbic_Region do you already know Haskell?
19:08 Limbic_Region Pugs is a p6 parser/compile that targets a handful of backends - Haskell, Perl5, JavaScript, and Parrot
19:08 Limbic_Region all of those areas need work
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19:09 Limbic_Region if you want something a bit more introductory - you can always write p6 code for example contributions and when it doesn't work - write tests
19:10 Limbic_Region what level of involvement were you looking for?
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19:17 pmurias I read the Haskell school of expresion and a bit of other haskell stuff, but would like to do something wich would allow me to learn Haskell for real
19:20 Limbic_Region oh, well then perhaps you should check out autrijus' tutorial on the matter
19:20 Limbic_Region http://pugscode.org/euroscon/haskell.xul
19:21 Limbic_Region http://www.haskell.org/learning.html # also has several tutorials
19:22 Limbic_Region autrijus' presentation likely won't help you learn Haskell unless he is actually presenting it
19:24 Juerd In which case you get instant understanding of large parts of the universe.
19:25 * Limbic_Region didn't know autrijus was into string or m-theory
19:26 geoffb large parts, not small parts
19:27 Limbic_Region geoffb - I didn't say quantum or relativity - string/m-theory is a GUT so large parts apply
19:28 Limbic_Region </silliness>
19:28 pmurias I was more looking for a medium/easy task which would allow me to see how thinks work out in pugs and haskell in general (and perhaps do something usefull) rather the haskell syntax(I read the Haskell Report for those)
19:29 justatheory has joined #perl6
19:29 Limbic_Region pmurias - my suggestion would be to find someone doing something you are vaguely interested in and ask them for specific guidance
19:29 Limbic_Region most people here have pet projects
19:30 Su-Shee Limbic_Region: Who's the petholder for "documentation"?
19:31 Juerd Several people. It depends on the kind of documentation you're after.
19:31 pmurias Limbic_Region: Is there a (hopefully) a list of those?
19:32 Su-Shee Juerd: I'd like to participate in some way. And as I'm a journalist, writing stuff comes in mind. What kind is _needed_?
19:32 Limbic_Region pmurias - it is unusually quiet here ATM, but usually the regulars are chatting about whatever it is they are working on
19:33 Limbic_Region pmurias - if you haven't checked the commit log - that might be a good place to start
19:33 Juerd Su-Shee: All kinds.
19:33 Juerd Su-Shee: For example, there is no reference documentation for Perl 6 yet.
19:34 Juerd Su-Shee: And there's the quickref subproject, that still needs more concisely packed info.
19:34 Limbic_Region Juerd - is there a p6doc yet - I seem to recall that there is but I am not sure
19:34 Su-Shee Juerd: The quickref I use right now to learn.
19:34 pmurias don't the synopsis count as reference documentation?
19:34 Juerd Su-Shee: It'd also be great if you could think of great answers for the fears subproject.
19:35 Juerd pmurias: I mean a perldoc like thing. Something a programmer can use to look up how the language works.
19:35 Juerd pmurias: Synopses describe changes since Perl 5 mostly.
19:35 Juerd Limbic_Region: I have no idea.
19:35 Juerd pmurias: We need documentation that is purely Perl 6, in very consistent Perl 6 jargon.
19:36 Juerd pmurias: Which is structured, and has a fixed layout within that structure.
19:37 Su-Shee Ok, I can see that the problem is not that there isn't enough to write. ;)
19:39 Juerd Certainly not :)
19:39 fglock rehi
19:39 Juerd If you feel like it, start writing and don't forget to commit often
19:39 pmurias Is one allowed to use synopses as a base for reference documentation (I haven't seen a licence on them)
19:40 Juerd pmurias: I think so, but I don't think it makes a good basis.
19:41 Su-Shee I may ask for details around here?
19:46 Juerd Always
19:47 obra pmurias: when you do that, credit it? just so it can be dealt with later if need be?
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20:00 meppl youre coding a java-script-compiler?
20:00 meppl --
20:04 meppl Mit der Version 6.2.8 haben sich die Ziele des Projektes leicht geändert. Pugs soll ein vollständiger Perl 6-Compiler werden, der Perl 6 nach Parrot (PIR), Haskell oder Perl 5 und weiteren Sprachen, z.B. JavaScript, übersetzen kann.
20:04 meppl hm
20:04 meppl sry
20:08 Su-Shee Wow. I'm impressed. Every crazy idea I try without documentation works as I expect. :)
20:21 Limbic_Region Su-Shee are you aware of the evalbot?
20:22 Su-Shee Limbic_Region: No?
20:22 Limbic_Region ?eval my @foo = 1..100; @foo[47]
20:22 evalbot_7978 is now known as evalbot_7981
20:22 evalbot_7981 \48
20:22 Limbic_Region ?my $choice = any(1..100); $choice.pick
20:23 Su-Shee Fancy. :) Is it saved afterwards if it works?
20:23 Limbic_Region ?eval my $choice = any(1..100); $choice.pick
20:23 evalbot_7981 10
20:23 Limbic_Region saved?
20:23 Su-Shee Yes. If it works the bot might save it as example, test or something like this.
20:24 Limbic_Region not that I know of and I doubt it
20:24 Limbic_Region the source code is in the pugs repository fwiw
20:26 Su-Shee I just have the pugs from CPAN right now.
20:26 Su-Shee I didn't expect that so much is working already.
20:26 Limbic_Region not sure why the Pugs from CPAN would be any different
20:27 Limbic_Region but if you need to browse the trunk repository you can
20:27 Limbic_Region http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/
20:27 wolverian any recommendations for a free (as in beer or freedom) licensed UML editor for linux that doesn't suck?
20:27 Limbic_Region http://svn.openfoundry.org/pu​gs/examples/network/evalbot/
20:28 Su-Shee Limbic_Region: tnx.
20:28 Limbic_Region wolverian - using "free UML editor" at google appears to give some promising results
20:29 wolverian Limbic_Region, thanks. I'm looking at argouml right now.
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20:37 GeJ wolverian: you can also try poseidon. It started as a fork of argouml but has grown pretty well lately. They have a community edition (or something like that) that is free as in beer.
20:47 Su-Shee Hm. For testing the rules I need parrot?
20:47 Limbic_Region yes, PGE hasn't been ported to p6 *yet*
20:47 Su-Shee Ok.
20:48 Su-Shee Well, this looks like a new edition of "mastering regular expressions" ... ;)
20:50 Limbic_Region well - p6 rules are called rules cause they aren't regular expressions anymore
20:50 Limbic_Region well - that's probably not the only or even the main reason, but it does apply
20:51 Su-Shee I just took a glance and saw "Ok, _this_ looks different.."
20:51 xinming I don't think regexp will be dead even we have got rule. :-)
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20:53 Su-Shee As I actually don't know what I can exactly do and don't with the rules..
20:54 pmurias Juerd: I sent my request for an account on feather my email,by new account isn't tested much so if you don't get it,please irc to me.
20:55 xinming Su-Shee: hmm, IMHO, rule is much more powerful than regexp. But regexp is more expressive in simple case.
20:55 Limbic_Region xinming - you are correct, rules encompass regexen but also a whole lot more
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21:00 wolverian GeJ, poseidon is nice, yes, and I have a license for it, but it is just too much of a memory hog.
21:00 wolverian GeJ, it does not run nicely on 256mb ram :)
21:05 GeJ nod nod... I have the same issue at work. have to use it on my station, useless on the laptop
21:05 Su-Shee And here we go with the rules.
21:06 wolverian argouml runs okay, but it doesn't do automatic layout
21:07 wolverian well, it does, but it just puts the classes side by side with no regard whatsoever to the connections
21:07 wolverian worse than useless
21:07 Juerd pmurias: After a comma should be whitespace :)
21:11 geoffb It weirds me out, somehow, that most of the English usage and syntax correction comes from people who are not native English speakers . . . while those of us who are native just subconsciously error-correct and don't even notice anything was wrong.
21:12 GeJ has quit IRC ("Client exiting")
21:12 geoffb Barring, of course, my $spouse, who is *constantly* correcting typos in ads, much to my annoyance.  :-)
21:12 PerlJam geoffb: The native english speakers are also the ones making the majority of the mistakes :)
21:12 geoffb LOL, well, possibly true.
21:15 Su-Shee at least you hadn't have a new version of spelling...
21:15 * Odin-LAP also spots and points out typos in Icelandic.
21:15 Odin-LAP So it's really not so much to do with having to think consciously about it, as it is a personality flaw. ;)
21:15 geoffb Odin-LAP, heh
21:16 geoffb Su-Shee, ?
21:16 Su-Shee I see it in foreign texts but not in mine. ;)
21:16 geoffb ah
21:16 Su-Shee geoffb: I'm suffering from a spelling reform in Germany as a journalist, because no it depends on the magazine what kind of spelling is used. ;)
21:17 Su-Shee And as german spelling always was _that_ easy.. ;)
21:17 geoffb bleh
21:17 Juerd geoffb: Eh, interpunction like this is not at all specific to English.
21:17 Juerd geoffb: And I do correct Dutch, my native language, too.
21:17 geoffb Juerd, true -- your correction made me think about the general trend
21:17 Odin-LAP Oooh. Kind of like here. They dropped "z" around thirty years ago. One of the newspapers still hasn't heard about that...
21:18 Juerd Odin-LAP: haven't
21:18 geoffb Su-Shee, is it true as I have heard that German is attempting to go to pure ASCII spelling?  Or will there still be Latin-1 characters used, even in "reformed" spellings?
21:19 Odin-LAP O_o
21:19 Odin-LAP Why the hell would they even want that? English is a mess because of doing precisely that. ;)
21:19 Odin-LAP ("Orthography? What's that?")
21:19 Juerd Ja, umlaut-frei Deutsch! Das waere toll!
21:19 Odin-LAP Aieee!
21:19 * Odin-LAP runs to the hills.
21:19 geoffb Juerd, so perhaps native English speakers simply care less about precision . . . .
21:20 * geoffb shrugs
21:20 Juerd geoffb: Would you care about whitespace within ellipses being ultimately weird?
21:20 Su-Shee geoffb: pure Ascii?! :)) no, there are still the german umlauts, but the reformed (we call it deformed ;) spelling spells words of greek origin now in a more "aesy" way. (ugly way ;)
21:20 Odin-LAP æ!
21:20 geoffb I dunno, Odin-LAP, I just heard that somewhere, I have no knowledge of the truth of it
21:20 geoffb Su-Shee, ah.
21:21 geoffb Juerd, old habits die hard.
21:21 * geoffb learned touch typing on manual typewriters
21:21 Juerd geoffb: Think about the lifetime of your spacebar! You could prolong it by CENTURIES!
21:21 Su-Shee geoffb: "philosoph" (old) -> "filosof" (new)
21:21 Juerd Well, days, perhaps, but still.
21:21 geoffb Juerd, heh
21:21 geoffb Su-Shee, oh dear.  Mark Twain strikes back.
21:21 Odin-LAP Su-Shee: Orthography.
21:22 Odin-LAP Which, incidentally, is a concept the english-speaking world seems not to comprehend.
21:22 Su-Shee geoffb: Well, the first thing _everyone_ would have changed has been the upper and lower case thing in german.. but no.. let's do some fancy utterly useless seplling stuff. ;)
21:22 geoffb .oO( For a deeply technical channel, we do seem to discuss human languages and their foibles an awful lot. )
21:22 * Odin-LAP still hasn't found a language with worse orthography. That includes french.
21:22 geoffb Su-Shee, NODNODNOD
21:22 PerlJam geoffb: well ... Larry *is* a linguist
21:23 PerlJam geoffb: and such tendencies run deep on perldom
21:23 PerlJam s/on/in/
21:23 Odin-LAP And every other perler is an amateur linguist.
21:23 Odin-LAP Or so it would seem.
21:23 geoffb PerlJam, but he has never been in here, so far as I know.
21:23 geoffb Odin-LAP, now *that* I would believe.
21:24 Su-Shee Odin-LAP: Worse than german?
21:24 kanru2 has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
21:24 kanru has joined #perl6
21:24 * geoffb switches from one-look.com to Google define:, thereby contributing to the borgification of virtuality
21:26 Odin-LAP Su-Shee: Deutsche Orthografie ist viel besser als Englisch. :>
21:26 Su-Shee Odin-LAP: :))
21:27 Su-Shee Well, I liked chinese. Not our idea of "orthography" ;)
21:27 Odin-LAP Not exactly, no.
21:27 Odin-LAP Non-alphabetic languages don't really qualify... :p
21:27 Su-Shee And a very nice grammar. ;)
21:28 Limbic_Region has quit IRC ("tiuq\")
21:28 Odin-LAP Hm. Don't know much about that.
21:28 Juerd Odin-LAP: Does your shift key wear out quickly?
21:28 Odin-LAP Juerd: Hm? Whaddya mean?
21:28 Juerd Odin-LAP: Nouns.
21:28 Su-Shee Odin-LAP: Well, it's actually rather short as chinese does not know about gender, tenses, numerals, cases, flection of verbs.. :)
21:28 geoffb Juerd, good thing keyboards come with two . . .
21:29 Odin-LAP Juerd: Dunno. I don't do that much typing in German. :>
21:29 Juerd Odin-LAP: Oh, heh :)
21:29 Juerd geoffb: Hehe<ws>.<ws>.<ws>. :)
21:29 geoffb ROFL
21:29 geoffb OK, I deserved that
21:30 Juerd Everyone deserves a mirror :)
21:31 Juerd Now I remember where I saw that weird interpunctual whitespace before!
21:31 Juerd MS-DOS!
21:31 geoffb OK, I'll use the Unicode then…
21:31 geoffb The problem is, it's damn near invisible in a fixed-width font
21:31 Juerd Yea.
21:31 Odin-LAP Indeed.
21:31 Juerd I prefer ASCII ... too.
21:32 * Odin-LAP likes the LaTeX version. :)
21:32 Juerd Though not . . ., and especially not with whitespace before or after.
21:32 * geoffb chuckles at the Unicode notes for HORIZONTAL ELLIPSIS:
21:32 geoffb Approximate equivalents:
21:32 geoffb • U+002E FULL STOP U+002E FULL STOP U+002E FULL STOP
21:34 Su-Shee Hm. what is the most simple rule that has to work? I always get an error of PGE.
21:34 Juerd Su-Shee: /foo/
21:34 Juerd That has to match foo.
21:35 Juerd And not match non-foo.
21:35 Juerd Sometimes I wish all life was this simple :)
21:37 Su-Shee Hm. I tried my $foo = "barfoobaz"; $m = $foo ~~ /foo/;
21:38 PerlJam Su-Shee: What's the error that you get?
21:39 Su-Shee *** Cannot parse PGE:  foo
21:39 Su-Shee *** Error: No such attribute '%:capt'
21:40 pmurias Juerd: did you get my email
21:40 pmurias ?
21:41 geoffb Grrrrr ... insert websites-with-tiny-fonts-th​at-don't-scale-with-ctrl-+ rant here ...
21:49 Juerd pmurias: Yes. Did you get mine?
21:49 Juerd geoffb: Minimum font size is a setting.
21:51 pmurias Juerd: nope
21:52 geoffb Juerd, I was referring to sites that space everything at fixed pixel locations that work (sortof) with their default 8 pixel high font, but basically become an unreadable mess if you increase the font size ... min size wouldn't help that
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21:52 Juerd geoffb: Ah.
21:52 Juerd pmurias: Fix that then :)
21:52 Juerd pmurias: 553 5.3.5 xdsl-1122.zgora.dialog.net.pl. config error: mail loops back to me (MX problem?)
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22:00 pmurias Juerd: I'll try to fix it tomorow, I've got to get to sleep now.
22:00 svnbot6 r7982 | fglock++ | * /docs/notes/lazyness.txt - first draft on the runtime view of
22:00 svnbot6 r7982 | fglock++ |   how Lazy things (like Arrays) work.
22:00 svnbot6 r7982 | fglock++ |   Only the "definitions" part is started.
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22:04 wolverian fglock, laziness :)
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22:11 Su-Shee ok. n8 all. thnx for the help.
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