Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-11-26

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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01:29 nothingmuch evening
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01:56 dduncan evening
02:00 svnbot6 r8010 | Darren_Duncan++ |  r959@Darren-Duncans-Computer:  darrenduncan | 2005-11-25 17:38:38 -0800
02:00 svnbot6 r8010 | Darren_Duncan++ |  /ext/Rosetta-Incubator : reverted version nums on 4 modules to 0.1.0 from 0.10.0, since they never had any X.YY versions
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06:07 svnbot6 r8011 | autrijus++ | * transcribe some random thoughts re PIL2 before I
06:07 svnbot6 r8011 | autrijus++ |   accidentally erase it again ;)
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06:25 luqui autrijus, ping
06:26 autrijus luqui: pong
06:26 autrijus luqui: glad to see you are getting lambdaminded by the day :)
06:27 luqui yeah.  I'm getting quite frightened to be honest.
06:27 luqui "oh", I think, "I just need an RWS monad"
06:27 luqui What?  How do I know that?!
06:27 luqui anyway...
06:27 luqui about the notes you just checked in
06:27 autrijus yes?
06:27 luqui A PIL tree is merely an (unordered!) set of static declarations;
06:27 autrijus (as you can see I'm in a more imperative mood.)
06:28 luqui Why not let the PIL tree be the definitinion of the "IMPORT" function
06:28 luqui or, rather, a wrapper around that, but with the same purpose
06:29 autrijus I don't quite get it.
06:29 autrijus eval 'say 3'
06:29 autrijus this "say 3" gets compiled with a IMPORT?
06:29 autrijus please elaborate
06:30 luqui well, that was just an idle thought.  It just feels wrong to let the tree be definitions at the top level
06:30 luqui instead of something that is executed
06:30 autrijus but the definition is expressed as a set of calls to the underlying runtime engine
06:30 autrijus see example of "say Hello World" below
06:30 luqui ahh, yes, I hadn't finished reading them
06:30 luqui I'll get back to you
06:30 autrijus the unorderness is merely noting that we'd like to go thru one level of indirection for sym lookups
06:31 autrijus so that the order of executing those definition-statements won't matter
06:31 autrijus it'd be much easier to express with code :) but sure, do finish reading them
06:32 luqui anyway, I read and grokked "colored local type inference"
06:32 autrijus excellent. that will come in handy.
06:32 luqui grokked being the important part.  so now I get to design a calculus for perl 6 that is inferrable.
06:32 autrijus good. then you need to somehow specify the annotatedness required for union types.
06:32 luqui probably taking some linear combination of their colored F<: and PIL2
06:32 autrijus that's a Very Interesting research problem.
06:33 autrijus (and intersection types.)
06:33 luqui oh, yeah, right, union types (as in Foo|Bar), as opposed to tagged unions
06:33 autrijus yup
06:33 luqui I'm hoping I can finesse them out of the core calculus
06:34 luqui that is, still let you write Foo|Bar, but only in a limited set of circumstances
06:34 autrijus right, the quest is to define the limit
06:34 luqui make it a pattern matching problem rather than a typing problem
06:34 luqui okay.. well, it'll be fun
06:34 luqui er, "fun"
06:35 autrijus may be of use is Semantic Typing in http://www.cduce.org/papers.html
06:35 autrijus B.Pierce noted we need to grok that if we are to include union/intersection typing.
06:35 autrijus have "fun" :)
06:42 sky__ *yawn*
06:43 autrijus hi sky :)
06:43 luqui heh, re: KISS.  I've found that when designing ASTs KISS works in reverse
06:43 autrijus mmm?
06:43 autrijus you want to maximize node types?
06:44 luqui you want to get as few nodes as possible, so you overengineer to do so
06:44 luqui keeping it simple involves putting in a special case node where one *might* not be needed
06:44 autrijus Keep It Simple, Smart
06:45 autrijus but yeah, I see your point
06:47 sky__ hi autrijus
06:48 sky__ I am debating wheter I should fly to taiwan over christmas
06:48 autrijus that'd be cool
06:48 autrijus I'll be back from .au on 14th
06:51 hcchien christmas. :)
06:52 autrijus .tw president just yesterday proposes to make christmas a off-work holiday
06:52 autrijus but probably wouldn't make it on time this year ;)
06:57 obra   autrijus! hello!
06:58 autrijus obra: greetings!
06:58 * autrijus is @ taipei.pm meeting
06:58 autrijus listening gugod's talk on the much improved, certainly impressive Catalyst 5.57
07:00 hcchien obra: did you see my flickr?
07:02 Khisanth autrijus: am I going nuts or did one of your journal entry disappear?
07:02 autrijus Khisanth: you are not going nuts -- I had a minor crisis and accidentally rmed bunch of stuff -- don't ask :/
07:02 geoffb *yawn*  Hey all . . . .
07:03 Khisanth hmm almost 2am
07:03 Khisanth my cousin was right, this DOES feel like a sunday :(
07:06 dduncan greetings all
07:07 autrijus hey dduncan
07:08 obra hcchien: no! where?
07:08 dduncan I notice things have been quiet with you lately ... lots of reading?
07:08 hcchien obra: http://www.flickr.com/photos/hcchien/
07:09 obra that RT looks a lot like trac
07:09 hcchien yup. haha
07:10 autrijus dduncan: yeah, cc2e mostly, and pbp
07:10 obra how much of RT is tracced?
07:10 autrijus pbp is like a fractal - more you read into it more you find - not surprising coming from dconway
07:11 dduncan I've read every page of pbp as of a few weeks ago
07:11 hcchien obra: about 5 or 6 template pages now
07:11 dduncan there's even a new email list for discussing it now ...
07:11 dduncan its pbp-pm@pm.org
07:11 obra hcchien: cool
07:12 autrijus yeah, and automatic refactorers -- I bought 4 copies to give to taipei.pm
07:12 dduncan started under a week ago
07:12 autrijus .tw only had 15 available copies and oreilly.com.tw isn't going to translate it :/
07:12 geoffb I wonder why ...?  Seems like it would sell like hotcakes in any language.
07:13 autrijus comparing cc2e and pbp side-by-side is very enlightening
07:13 geoffb autrijus, do tell . . . .
07:13 autrijus mostly, the parts they agree tend to be about programming
07:13 autrijus the parts they disagree tend to be about C++/Java/VB vs Perl
07:13 dduncan does anyone know if there will be another YAPC in Canada any time soon, like the Toronto one? ... 'twould be interesting to meet autrijus in person
07:13 autrijus and by focusing on things they agree on, the respective bias can be avoided
07:14 autrijus dduncan: next hackathon is YAPC::Israel on Feb
07:14 dduncan I can't afford to travel that soon ... summer at the earliest
07:14 geoffb autrijus, makes sense
07:14 autrijus geoffb: people who read advanced computer books prefers English normally
07:14 autrijus and "perl books doesn't sell except for cookbook/llama" according to ora.com.tw
07:14 geoffb Kinda makes you want equivalent books from other language groups, like a Prolog version.
07:15 autrijus indeed
07:15 geoffb I need to pick up Thinking Forth again, I have the feeling it will have a lot of that "best practices" kind of thing as a side effect.
07:16 geoffb Hmmm, I thought PBP was doing quite well . . . didn't realize it was still far behind the cookbook.
07:17 obra It's also brand new
07:18 obra It has had no time to build up a mythos
07:18 obra hcchien: what are you doing the RTrac for? also, when will it be ready?
07:20 hcchien obra: just for fun. ui rules. some ppl in .tw love trac, but I think if rt got the frondend like trac, it would be more popular. :)
07:20 obra cool
07:20 obra lots of people love trac
07:20 obra I've been working on something new to make it easy to build lightweight apps.
07:21 obra We'll be releasing the first dev version on Christmas
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07:25 hcchien is it on svn repository?
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07:38 obra hcchien: not yet. still secret
07:38 obra still writing demos ;)
07:38 autrijus movie! movie!
07:39 obra :P
07:39 obra code sample?
07:40 obra http://fsck.com/~jesse/JiftyWiki.tgz
07:40 autrijus movie as in: http://rawmode.org/~gabbana/movie_title.png
07:41 obra right. no movies yet.
07:41 obra certainly not until after the first developer release ;)
07:41 sky__ I HATE MOVIES
07:41 sky__ they are useless
07:41 sky__ you can't fucking copy and paste from a movie :)
07:41 obra we'll be lucky if we manage more than two sample apps
07:41 sky__ nor can you skim them
07:41 obra movies are great marketing material
07:41 sky__ or search them
07:41 sky__ I disagree
07:42 sky__ good night :)
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07:57 hcchien obra: what is the JiftyWiki?
08:00 hcchien a wiki in RT?
08:04 obra no. it's a wiki in Jifty, our new framework
08:14 obra that code has everything you need for fastcgi and standalone servers, database setup, etc
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08:37 hcchien autrijus just present it. :p
08:39 autrijus obra: I presented your NPW slides :D
08:39 autrijus _right_ after gugod's catalyst talk
08:39 autrijus for maximum dramatic effect
08:40 hcchien obra: so will the rt be rewitten?
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09:02 autrijus luqui: rehi... I gotta run, be back in ~30min :)
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09:35 dduncan sky__, who says you can't copy and paste from a movie?  it's just a data file like any other
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10:28 gaal whoa, is that movie actually available for viewing somewhere?
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10:36 nothingmuch movie?
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10:49 gaal nothingmuch: you're the star: http://rawmode.org/~gabbana/movie_title.png (well, your bass-kickin' fingers are)
10:52 nothingmuch oh, that one
10:52 nothingmuch err... =(
10:52 nothingmuch merlyn backed out
10:52 nothingmuch we're waiting for others to finish audio
10:53 r0nny morning
10:54 r0nny did anyone try to do a pugs plugin for irssi ?
10:54 * nothingmuch goes to visit his grandma
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14:25 r0nny hello
14:26 r0nny are atomic mehtods atomic per instance, or global atomic ?
14:27 r0nny (and how to check if one of them allready runs)
14:28 r0nny anyone ?
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15:05 rafl Juerd_: Will you be at 22c3? Still need something to sleep? Write [email@hidden.address] and say I already asked for a place to sleep for you.
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16:00 malverian autrijus: ping
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19:48 DesreveR yo
19:49 DesreveR is there any perl6 thing can search files ?
19:51 DesreveR anyone ?
19:55 revdiablo File::Find
19:55 revdiablo I don't know how good it is, or up to date, but it's in Pugs' ext/File-Find
19:56 revdiablo Looks pretty nice
19:58 DesreveR they made it a object
20:00 revdiablo Yeah, the interface looks a bit cleaner than File::Find (don't you just love understatement?)
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20:02 DesreveR i'd like ta use it kinda like map
20:02 DesreveR find{ regex }==>sort==>@queue;
20:05 revdiablo Write an alternate interface
20:05 DesreveR hmm
20:05 revdiablo Someone would probably give you a commit bit and let you add it to the project
20:06 DesreveR hmm
20:06 DesreveR im far from understanding perl6 good enough to do so
20:07 DesreveR well - i will do a sub can be used with array redirection
20:09 DesreveR btw - can i limit the types of a member var in a subclass ?
20:10 DesreveR hmm
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20:14 DesreveR rofl
20:15 DesreveR i just realized i can do the insane thing to interpret autofoo files from my build system
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20:48 Aankh|Clone G'night.
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21:52 Juerd_ rafl: How soon do I have to decide? I may be in a much better position to do so in a week (re 22c3)
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22:14 r0nny yo
22:14 r0nny how do i pass a local variable as param to a eval'd function call call ?
22:17 dduncan why is the function call eval'd ... what part is generated code?
22:17 dduncan if no code is generated and you just want to catch exceptions, use a try-block
22:18 r0nny no
22:18 r0nny i got something where i need to generate a function-name at runtime
22:19 dduncan is this function package-qualified or object oriented?
22:19 r0nny package-qualified
22:19 dduncan is the package name constant or generated?
22:19 r0nny basically i need to generate a special kind of object depending on a variable
22:19 r0nny its generated
22:20 r0nny read from a config file
22:20 dduncan is the function name constant or generated?
22:20 dduncan what about the arg list ... constant or generated?
22:20 dduncan fyi, I have a working example in Locale-KeyedText where the package name comes from a config variable, but everything else is constant ...
22:21 dduncan this example works without 'eval' ...
22:21 r0nny can i look at it ?
22:21 dduncan if anything but the package name is generated, an eval may be needed
22:21 dduncan its in /ext
22:21 dduncan er, its in /ext/Rosetta-Incubator
22:22 r0nny where exactly
22:22 dduncan the line says: $text = &::($module_name)::get_text_by_key( $msg_key );
22:22 dduncan line 229
22:23 dduncan the $module_name is a package name from a config var, everything else is constant
22:24 r0nny hmm
22:25 Khisanth ?eval 0... ==> @;foo
22:25 evalbot_8004 is now known as evalbot_8011
22:25 evalbot_8011 Error:  unexpected ">" expecting term
22:26 dduncan I'll be going outside in a minute, ...
22:30 r0nny darn
22:30 r0nny i got a problem loading a package with a generated name
22:31 r0nny darn
22:31 dduncan I have to go out for a bit, but if you quickly post the code that isn't working (use nopaste if more than 1-3 lines), I may be able to help you
22:32 r0nny mom
22:32 r0nny there are multiple files
22:33 dduncan to put it in perspective, Locale::KeyedText works by invoking modules whose package names are supplied by the user but that otherwise have a known interface
22:34 dduncan it tries to invoke the known function on a var-supplied package name, first loading the package if necessary
22:34 dduncan the line I showed you assumes package already loaded
22:34 r0nny http://rafb.net/paste/results/kCoS2w20.html
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22:36 r0nny i think i did something wrong on the call
22:36 dduncan so you have a compile problem in a different file ... unless the one you pasted is Builder.pm
22:37 dduncan nevermind
22:37 r0nny p pasted both files
22:37 r0nny found the problem
22:37 dduncan good
22:37 r0nny space betwen function name and op ()
22:37 dduncan if I were you, I would break up line 20 into more lines
22:38 r0nny well - i will do now
22:38 dduncan eg. slurp into a variable before evaling it
22:38 r0nny im going to use my eyml sub
22:39 dduncan then make sure the variable contains valid perl code by printing out its contents ... eval requires valid perl code as input methinks
22:39 dduncan a yaml file isn't perl code
22:39 r0nny btw - it use just a value from the file
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22:40 r0nny so it genrates the package name
22:40 dduncan also I'll warn you that CATCH isn't working yet ... or wasn't last week, but checking the value of $! like in perl 5 (check $@) does work
22:40 r0nny wont it die if it cant catch ?
22:40 dduncan no, because you have a try block
22:41 dduncan a try block without a catch is a no-op when exception thrown
22:41 dduncan see the Locale-Keyedtext code again for what I refer to
22:41 dduncan it comments out the CATCH solution and uses the other for now
22:42 r0nny hmm
22:42 dduncan if the file slurp results in a package name, you usually first have to 'use' it before invoking a function
22:43 r0nny i do allready
22:43 dduncan good
22:44 dduncan anyway, I have to go out now for a bit ... yard work
22:51 r0nny hf
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23:25 svnbot6 r8012 | fglock++ | * /docs/notes/laziness.txt - "List" vs "Tuple";
23:25 svnbot6 r8012 | fglock++ |   reorganization of sections.
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