Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-12-02

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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00:26 nothingmuch geoffb: pong
00:26 * geoffb waggles his eyebrows:
00:27 geoffb : BETWEEN DO I . LOOP ;
00:27 geoffb OK
00:27 geoffb 10 0 BETWEEN
00:27 geoffb 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9  OK
00:27 geoffb It bloody works
00:27 geoffb FINALLY
00:27 * wolverian installs goo
00:28 geoffb I figured you might appreciate that, nothingmuch :-)
00:31 venk has joined #perl6
00:34 nothingmuch ouch
00:34 * nothingmuch didn't want to implement do/loop
00:34 nothingmuch begin/while were working so well that I thought they were enough ;-)
00:35 geoffb :-)
00:35 nothingmuch anyway, sleepy time
00:35 geoffb do/loop are actually quite a pain
00:35 geoffb g'night
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00:51 Alias_ autrijus: ping?
00:54 autrijus Alias_: pong
00:54 Alias_ You are on the list of "naughty presenters that haven't registered for OSDC"
00:54 Alias_ Wanna go register, and I'll confirm you to the mailing list
00:54 autrijus but I already did!
00:55 Alias_ ok, will let them know
00:55 autrijus danke
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01:01 Alias_ autrijus: There are no records of you registering, please re-register
01:04 Khisanth would setting ghc_heap_size to 200m be ok?
01:04 autrijus Alias_: that can't be :/
01:04 autrijus a sec
01:05 joepurl has joined #perl6
01:05 autrijus Alias_: I fwd'ed you the system mail
01:06 Alias_ ok
01:06 autrijus (I finished the registration upon receiving Scott's prodding, so that's within 1 hour)
01:07 autrijus maybe it takes some time to propagate?
01:08 Alias_ So it's done in the last hour?
01:08 geoffb Hey, autrijus, welcome back!
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01:47 stevan autrijus: ping
01:47 Alias_ autrijus: osdc list says thanks
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01:56 svnbot6 r8049 | fglock++ | * misc/Parser-Mini/parser.p6 - 'pugs parser.p6 parser.p6' works
01:57 stevan fglock++ # very nice
01:57 fglock stevan: that was the easy part
01:58 fglock integrating with the runtime looks really tough
01:58 stevan fglock: I started some of that with the Perl6-ObjectSpace work
01:59 fglock I was reading it other day - maybe I can use that as a starting point
01:59 stevan look at the metamodel implementation
01:59 fglock but I'm trying to program in p6 instead of p5
01:59 stevan hmmm
01:59 stevan thats trickier,..
02:00 stevan although I suppose the P6ObjectSpace could be ported to a simplified version of p6
02:00 stevan that was one of the things autrijus and I talked about
02:01 fglock I think I'll not use pugs's objects - maybe something like perl5/Perl6-Container, but in p6
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02:02 stevan fglock: we could program like it was the late 70s, and use ADTs and modules :)
02:02 stevan p6objectspace is based on your p6 container work too
02:03 stevan I tried to determine the smallest set of "things" I would need to create the metamodel
02:06 fglock does parrot need a metamodel? it already handles objects
02:06 stevan I am not sure the Parrot object model will support all the features that p6 needs
02:06 stevan not to mention ruby, python, etc
02:06 stevan I think it can serve as a base, but there will need to be a metamodel atop it for each language
02:07 leo fglock: parrot should support a lot of p6 objects (it's designed for it)
02:07 stevan leo: what about roles?
02:08 leo that's up to the compiler (+ parrot to put parts together probably)
02:08 stevan leo: yes, that is what I was thinking,.. but we will need some runtime support for roles as well
02:09 stevan do you envision the p6 runtime to be purely parrot?
02:09 leo sure - we need some more interface defintion, which isn't there yet, I think
02:10 stevan so there will be no p6 runtime, it will all be compiled down to parrot then
02:10 fglock p6 = compiler + runtime. It looks like we can have a very simple parser if the runtime is "fat" enough.
02:11 fglock the division between compiler and runtime is not much clear to me
02:11 leo different parts will compile down to different levels (a lot to parrot)
02:11 stevan my concern is that without a p6 runtime which lives on top of Parrot, we will not have the enough object reflection and introspection capabilities
02:11 leo there is for sure a p6 runtime too
02:11 stevan oh,.. ok :)
02:12 stevan but implemented on parrot (PIR, PMC, or some other 3 letter acronym)  
02:12 leo it's just a problem of: how much does the compiler know about the runtime and then use that
02:13 stevan I always saw the compiler as doing a lot of "desugaring" of the more complex p6 syntax
02:13 stevan and then the runtime would not need bear that complexity
02:13 leo sure, but you can desugar down to SKI or some such
02:13 stevan SKI?
02:15 leo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlambda
02:16 leo also in parrot languages
02:16 stevan this would fit nicely with my idea of a metamodel in pure lambda calc
02:17 leo yes but you might have a look at execution times ;-)
02:17 stevan :)
02:17 stevan leo: I stumbled on this recently, it might interest you : http://www.coyotos.org/docs/bitc/spec.html
02:18 stevan it is a scheme like dialect which is meant to be as low level as C
02:18 stevan might be an interesting parrot language
02:18 leo such theories and abstractions are really nice, but run some benchmarks with the abstract model
02:20 leo stevan: BitC has a formal semantics, static typing, ...
02:21 leo that's neither perl6 nor parrot nor other clients of parrot
02:21 stevan yes, but could parrot support it possibly?
02:22 stevan or is that low-level of access not possible
02:22 * stevan is not very familiar with parrot past the mailing lists and O'Reilly books
02:23 leo when ypu compile down that low-level you are at c-- or assembler or such
02:23 stevan ah,.. okay
02:24 leo parrot with objects, closures, continuations, exceptions, ... and unicode string support is far above that low-level stuff
02:24 stevan true :)
02:25 fglock translating p6 runtime to Parrot looks like a good idea, but I wonder how difficult it would be to maintain it
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02:25 stevan hmmm,,.. trying to sync two moving targets at once,..
02:26 leo well, we are always trying to have a stable PIR interface, but we aren't at 1.0 yet
02:27 stevan leo: the movement of the p6l end is more the problem at this point
02:27 leo OTOH and e.g. I wrote a PIR presentation program for YAPC::Paris, which still is running (ok - after chaning one line)
02:28 leo stevan: exactly
02:28 stevan the movement on that end makes even slight movements on the parrot end seem bigger
02:28 leo p6l should take a freeze, really
02:28 stevan :)
02:28 leo and define the language, which is necessary to be name 6.00
02:28 * stevan thinks maybe language design is just too much fun
02:29 leo well they can define 6.1.0 then
02:29 obra leo: send that to me along with why it'll help you get more work done
02:29 leo or in the meantime
02:29 stevan switch to ruby?
02:30 leo obra: this doesn't parse for me at 3,5 am
02:30 stevan obra: you mean to freeze the language design?
02:31 fglock stevan: how about targetting Ruby? Are the runtimes reasonably compatible/fast?
02:32 stevan fglock: no, I mean switch from p5 to Ruby for everyday usage
02:32 Khisanth hmm
02:32 leo obra: I don't have much problem with it *yet* - pugs has it or any other implementation
02:32 Khisanth ?eval 1 == any( 1, 2, 3, 4 )
02:32 evalbot_8048 is now known as evalbot_8049
02:32 evalbot_8049 bool::false
02:32 Khisanth hrm
02:32 stevan fglock: there is a RubyVM out there which presents an interesting target
02:32 Khisanth ?eval 1 eq any( 1, 2, 3, 4 )
02:32 evalbot_8049 bool::false
02:33 stevan I don't recall the name though
02:33 Khisanth ?eval any(1,2,3,4,5)
02:33 wolverian Khisanth, evalbot still has problems with junctions
02:33 evalbot_8049 1
02:33 stevan fglock: http://www.atdot.net/yarv/
02:33 fglock I mean, emit Ruby from the compiler
02:34 Khisanth wolverian: oh right I think it's always collapsing them or something
02:34 stevan fglock: emitting YARV instructions might easier
02:34 wolverian it always takes the smallest value or something like that
02:34 wolverian what that is in boolean logic don't ask me
02:34 wolverian ?eval 3 > any 2,3,4,5,6
02:34 evalbot_8049 bool::false
02:34 stevan fglock: the instruction table is quite nice http://www.atdot.net/yarv/insnstbl.html (only the first 50 are relevant, the rest are optimizations)
02:35 wolverian ?eval 3 > 2,6
02:35 evalbot_8049 (bool::true, 6)
02:35 wolverian erm.
02:35 wolverian I'll go sleep :)
02:35 leo stevan: have a look at lua opcodes
02:36 stevan leo: no I havent
02:36 leo you don't need much indeed
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02:38 leo see ya & #bed
02:38 stevan nite
02:39 * stevan is signing off as well &
02:40 fglock nite all
02:40 fglock ?eval ( 1 == all(1..5) ).values
02:40 evalbot_8049 (bool::false, bool::true)
02:41 fglock ?eval ( 1 == any(1..5) ).values
02:41 evalbot_8049 (bool::false, bool::true)
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03:35 buu I like how it returns false and true
03:35 buu So you can take your pick.
03:40 Khisanth hmm I am glad . will no longer be used for string concat
03:40 Khisanth can never be sure if there is a . or if it's dirt on my screen :/
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06:33 svnbot6 r8050 | Darren_Duncan++ |  r1064@Darren-Duncans-Computer:  darrenduncan | 2005-12-01 22:27:11 -0800
06:33 svnbot6 r8050 | Darren_Duncan++ |  /ext/Rosetta-Incubator : updated Locale::KeyedText version to 1.71.0, as 1.70.0 was released
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08:17 Khisanth ?eval my $foo = "foo bar"; my @foo = <<$foo>>;
08:17 evalbot_8049 is now known as evalbot_8050
08:17 evalbot_8050 ["foo", "bar"]
08:18 GeJ ?eval my $foo = "foo bar"; my @foo = «$foo»;
08:18 evalbot_8050 ["foo bar",]
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08:19 Khisanth I don't think the eval bot likes unicode
08:19 devin why trailing comma in the [] ?
08:19 devin (and that wasn't unicode, it was iso-8859-1)
08:19 GeJ Well, I can get that, but in theory, aren't those supposed to be the same?
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08:45 Khisanth GeJ: yes
08:50 GeJ devin: I think Khisanth meant not in the ASCII 7 bits chars
08:51 * Khisanth has his encoding set to utf8
08:51 Khisanth regardless it's hard to tell what encoding someone is using just by the characters :)
08:51 GeJ did anyone get news from The Man? did he get at the Aussies yet?
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09:25 r0nny yo
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09:43 autrijus GeJ: I'm going to be in the airport in 1hr
09:44 autrijus then checkback after ~20 hours
09:44 autrijus finally free from $job, thank $deity
09:46 autrijus that's the good news... bad news is I havn't even started pacing.
09:47 autrijus packing, even.
09:47 obra pacing?
09:47 * autrijus goes packing.
09:47 obra ah
09:47 obra go pack
09:48 GeJ autrijus: well, enjoy the flight and don't watch the same movie 4 times. :)
09:49 autrijus ok :)
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15:54 xerox Hi.
15:55 r0nny re
15:55 xerox Do you remember that video of that guy doing some presentation in takashi style?
15:55 xerox It was about... a new kind of "identity" which could run on many site or something.
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15:59 xerox autrijus: don't you remember?
16:03 xerox Ah!
16:03 xerox identity.
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17:26 * stevan just discovered seaside (http://www.seaside.st/)
17:26 stevan very nice stuff
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17:57 nothingmuch yeah, it's cool
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18:11 fglock parser.p6 doesn't run in Parrot - "error:imcc:syntax error, unexpected INTC, expecting '('"  :(
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18:41 r0nny yo
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20:17 stevan leo: ping
20:18 leo stevan: pong
20:22 stevan leo: what is the best resource for PIR
20:23 leo docs and existing code
20:23 stevan ok, any recommendations on what code to read?
20:23 leo generally or regarding a specific topic?
20:24 stevan generally
20:24 leo I'd start with docs/compiler_faq.pod
20:25 leo then for some existing code to get a feeling about it: examples/pir/sudoku.pir
20:26 leo the latter of course only, because I've written it ;-)
20:27 stevan :)
20:28 leo or compilers/pge/*.pir
20:28 leo or compilers/tge/*.pir
20:28 stevan what is TGE?
20:28 leo tree grammar engine
20:29 leo L::AG in pir
20:29 stevan cool
20:29 stevan is the O'Rielly book (2nd edition) good.,.. or hopelessly out of date?
20:30 leo it's good when it's about basics and philosphy ...
20:30 stevan ok
20:30 stevan does PIR have lists?
20:30 leo PASM & PIR basics still apply though
20:30 leo define list ;-)
20:31 stevan something akin to Perl 5's @arrays
20:31 leo sure - a lot of these *<type>Array
20:32 stevan k
20:33 leo see classes/*.pmc
20:34 stevan oh nice
20:37 stevan is there a place where the APIs for the classes/*.pmc are documented?
20:37 stevan my C fu is weak
20:49 leo perldoc docs/pdds/clip/pdd02_vtables.pod
20:50 leo or just perldoc classes/<which>.pmc
20:51 DesreveR yo
20:51 leo but from PIR you don't deal with PMCs directly, you are using them via opcodes
20:51 leo e.g.
20:52 leo ar = new  .FixedPMCArray
20:52 leo ar = 5 # set size
20:52 leo ar[0] = b
20:52 DesreveR yo
20:52 DesreveR i got a problem with method-dispatching on pugs
20:53 leo stevan: more on #parrot (irc.pobox.com)
20:53 DesreveR http://rafb.net/paste/results/x1U6eP49.html <- allways fails
20:56 DesreveR anyone got an idea?
20:59 DesreveR -_-
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21:01 Khisanth perhaps not yet implemented?
21:06 DesreveR ?
21:10 DesreveR how to get it work ?
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22:36 luqui stevan, ping
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23:01 Khisanth ?eval class foo { has $.baz; method doit() { if $counter++ < 10 { $.baz.doit } } } my foo $t1.=new;
23:01 evalbot_8050 \foo.new();
23:01 Khisanth oO that is a weird syntax
23:01 Khisanth ?eval class foo { has $.baz; method doit() { if $counter++ < 10 { $.baz.doit } } } my foo $t1.=new; $t1.perl
23:01 evalbot_8050 "\\foo.new();"
23:02 luqui the semicolon especially
23:02 Khisanth I mean the .=
23:02 luqui oh
23:02 Khisanth which semicolon were you refering to?
23:02 luqui ?eval class foo { }  my foo $t1 .= new;  $t1
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23:02 evalbot_8050 \foo.new();
23:02 luqui ?eval class foo { }  my foo $t1 .= new;  [3,$t1]
23:02 evalbot_8050 [3, foo.new();]
23:02 luqui that one!
23:02 luqui fixing
23:03 Khisanth heh yeah that is an odd one
23:04 Khisanth btw, have you ever gotten an error message about system call interrupted while doing a "make unoptimized" ?
23:04 Khisanth after which the build fails
23:04 luqui nope
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23:26 svnbot6 r8051 | luqui++ | There should not be a semicolon in dumped structures  (Fixed for
23:26 svnbot6 r8051 | luqui++ | Foo.new.perl).
23:29 Khisanth hmm
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23:30 Khisanth ?eval class foo { has $.baz; method doit() { if $counter++ < 10 { $.baz.doit } } } my foo $t1.=new; $t1.baz.perl
23:30 evalbot_8050 is now known as evalbot_8051
23:30 evalbot_8051 "\\undef"
23:30 Khisanth ?eval class foo { has foo $.baz; method doit() { if $counter++ < 10 { $.baz.doit } } } my foo $t1.=new; $t1.baz.perl
23:30 evalbot_8051 "\\undef"
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23:31 Khisanth hrm so what was DesreveR testing for?
23:31 * luqui doesn't think he was here when that happened
23:39 svnbot6 r8052 | luqui++ | It seems that svnbot6 would only correctly report to a single channel.  
23:39 svnbot6 r8052 | luqui++ | Fixed (untested).
23:43 Khisanth luqui: http://rafb.net/paste/results/x1U6eP49.html that
23:44 luqui ahh, that code was infinite looping
23:44 luqui it was calling doit() on self instead of $.baz
23:45 kane_ has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
23:45 luqui ?eval my $counter = 0; class foo { has $.baz;  method doit() { if $counter++ < 10 { $.baz.doit } } } say foo.new.doit();  say $counter
23:45 evalbot_8051 is now known as evalbot_8052
23:45 evalbot_8052 OUTPUT[ 11 ] bool::true
23:45 luqui and that bug still exists
23:45 luqui it seems...
23:46 luqui ?eval my $counter = 0; class foo { has $.baz;  method doit() { if $counter++ < 10 { $.baz.doit } } } say foo.new(baz => 42).doit();  say $counter
23:46 evalbot_8052 Error: Can't modify constant item: VUndef
23:46 luqui interesting
23:47 luqui ?eval my $counter = 0; class foo { has $.baz;  method doit() { if $counter++ < 10 { $.baz.doit } } } say foo.new(baz => undef).doit();  say $counter
23:47 evalbot_8052 OUTPUT[ 11 ] bool::true
23:48 luqui 42.doit
23:48 luqui ?eval 42.doit
23:48 evalbot_8052 Error: No such method: "&doit"
23:49 Khisanth why would that be calling it on self?
23:50 luqui bug?
23:51 Khisanth but what is $.baz.doit() expected to call?
23:52 luqui "no method found: undef.doit"
23:54 luqui man, if I have to look at findSub again, I think I'll go blind
23:55 luqui is there a way to tell unix sort to sort in place?
23:56 luqui yes :-)

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