Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-12-06

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:52 leo autrijus: [re $!] lwall doesn't really say that $! is invalid outside of an exception handler (I think), for me TSa's answer is clear and ok
00:53 autrijus leo: I think lwall says each sub get its own implicit "env $!"
00:53 autrijus leo: TSa's answer says something else entirely (which would also work)
00:54 leo well, TSa says that $! (the exception) is only valid inside a CATCH handler, which make a lot of sens to me
00:55 autrijus try { die 3 }; say $!;
00:55 autrijus this idiom will go away then
00:57 leo hmm
00:57 leo 2 levels of catch are involved here
00:57 leo P6 (default catch handler everwhere (iirc))
00:57 leo and parrot
00:58 joepurl has joined #perl6
00:59 leo the above actually means iirc: try { die 3 }; CATCH {say $!;}
01:03 autrijus I can live w/ that
01:03 wolverian I thought CATCH would only be called when an exception was propagated to its lexical scope?
01:04 wolverian or am I misunderstanding the point of the example :)
01:04 leo I think in the absence of any eception (or handler) there is no $!
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01:06 autrijus wolverian: you would be correct :)
01:06 autrijus try { die 3; CATCH { say $! }}
01:06 autrijus would be p6
01:06 autrijus { die 3 }; CATCH { say $! }
01:07 pd scope is it
01:08 stevan hey autrijus how goes the conference
01:10 autrijus very much fun
01:10 autrijus VB talk coming in a hour
01:10 stevan nice :)
01:10 autrijus Pugs keynote in 5
01:10 stevan so I finally got my head around PIR last night
01:10 autrijus happy that the last parrot lex bug we need fixing is just fixed
01:10 stevan oohh Pugs Keynote!!??!?!
01:11 autrijus (find_name not working with .lex)
01:11 autrijus leo++ # oil-for-food^Wtest-for-fix
01:11 autrijus yeah... pugs keynote... I'm the conway proxy here
01:11 stevan very cool
01:11 stevan where is conway?
01:12 autrijus somewhere. had some troubles apparently and can't attend or host me
01:12 autrijus so I end up hacking M::I/PAR/PPI with Alias
01:12 autrijus which is fun also.
01:12 stevan cool
01:13 autrijus alias is very much fun and nice and gentle in realworld
01:13 stevan :)
01:13 autrijus much to my surprise :)
01:13 stevan :D
01:14 stevan so its a non-Pugs Hackathon this time then
01:14 autrijus well... seeing how we're porting these to Pugs/P6, I'd still say it's a Pugs hackathon
01:14 stevan ah
01:15 autrijus we need those tools for Pugs as well :)
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01:15 stevan how much longer are you in .au?
01:16 autrijus 2 more days in melbourne, then 3 in lismore, then 4 in sydney -- make that 9
01:16 stevan then back to .tw?
01:17 autrijus yeah, until early Feb then to Tel-Aviv
01:17 stevan will you have $work when you are back in .tw?
01:19 autrijus most likely yes, but not desperately
01:19 autrijus there's one project to finish still
01:19 autrijus and no more during or after that
01:19 autrijus and if either Jifty or Cat is any good, the project should be straightforward.
01:19 stevan cool,.. so it's back to 24/7 Pugs :)
01:19 autrijus more like 24/5 but yes :)
01:19 autrijus thank $deity.
01:20 stevan $deity?
01:20 autrijus _insert_random_god_here_
01:20 stevan ah
01:20 Jooon God of rechargable batteries
01:20 stevan The Great Lithium Ion!!!
01:20 pd I'm not a theist, you ignorant clod :)
01:21 pd heh. "thank NULL." Not sure how I feel about that one. Perhaps better than "thank undef."?
01:21 stevan so autrijus, is the next step on the MM a Haskell version?
01:25 autrijus stevan: yes, ObjSpace-in-Hs and then the bootstrap code evaluator
01:25 autrijus stevan: then codegen from that to PIR objs
01:26 stevan ObjSpace ,.. so we are gutting the current core?
01:27 autrijus AST.Internals yes
01:27 autrijus Types.* definitely
01:27 stevan cool
01:27 autrijus I don't think Eval.hs needs to go right now
01:27 autrijus the abstractions are pretty good
01:27 autrijus I did this once already with the Container fix in Types.*
01:27 autrijus so probably can do it again
01:27 stevan so are we going to do that sendmsg thing we spoke about? or some other approach?
01:28 autrijus sendmsg is the way to go
01:28 stevan cool
01:28 autrijus and no runtime type assertions by default
01:28 autrijus it's ducks all the wya down
01:28 stevan quack :)
01:28 stevan what are you thinking in terms of the PIR
01:28 stevan I am currently stuck as to where to start with the metamodel
01:29 stevan I wrote Opaque last night,.. but it felt like I was re-inventing things
01:29 stevan but when I hacked a basic Class ,... it felt too high level
01:29 autrijus I think we reuse PIR ParrotObject as Opaque
01:29 stevan yeah, that makes sense
01:29 autrijus PIR allows compile time objspace seeding
01:29 autrijus so that makes codegen ~trivial
01:30 stevan what about method dispatching... reuse ParrotObject or do it ourselves?
01:30 autrijus also reuse PO
01:30 autrijus as they are also C3
01:30 stevan hmm ok
01:30 stevan yeah I know
01:30 autrijus if there's any mismatch, yell at leo
01:30 stevan LOL
01:30 stevan I should write some more tests for the C3 stuff
01:31 autrijus chip's idea is that parrot should be the fastest VM for Pugs
01:31 stevan BTW - did you see that matts is using Class::C3 in DBIx::Class now
01:31 autrijus yup, and I get a lot of INIT block warnings
01:31 stevan yup :)
01:31 autrijus I fixed some of them in Catalyst
01:31 autrijus and released Test-use-ok
01:31 autrijus for that specifically (you may like it)
01:31 stevan I told him i would remove the INIT if he wanted,.. after all he is the only one using that module :)
01:32 stevan yeah I saw Test-use-ok,.. very witty :)
01:32 autrijus :D
01:32 autrijus anyway, I think a 'no warnings "void"' may be warranted. maybe not. I'm not sure
01:33 stevan it probably makes sense to get rid of the INIT block and make initalization manual
01:33 * stevan ponders how to thread the MM through ParrotSpace
01:34 * autrijus gets ready for lightning talk
01:34 * stevan envisions something akin to the Pod Racers in Star Wars
01:34 autrijus =pod Racers
01:34 stevan :)
01:35 * autrijus discovers nothingmuch posted some flattery on cpanrantings for Test-use-ok
01:36 wolverian heh, cpanrantings
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01:45 Khisanth pd: there very good reasons to be thanking NULL and undef when you are debugging :)
01:45 pd Khisanth, heh.
01:45 * stevan lights some insence and places them under his statue of NULL
01:45 autrijus because debugging is godforsaken and thankless?
01:45 pd yes, dereferencing a NULL pointer is generally better than dereferencing, say, 3.
01:46 fglock_ hi all!
01:47 stevan hey fglock
01:48 fglock_ I'm experimenting with compiling a mini-runtime to parrot
01:48 fglock_ not much luck yet with -Cpir or -Cpil2
01:49 autrijus -Cpir is brokem on parrot+lexpad
01:49 autrijus -Cpil2 is waiting on ObjSpace-Hs port
01:49 autrijus so yeah :/
01:49 autrijus (both should improve before parrot 0.4.1)
01:49 fglock_ I just recompiled with parrot embedding, but I still get an error with missing &rx_
01:50 autrijus I think we can't work with 0.4.0 ever... not worth working around the find_name bug
01:50 fglock_ should I use -Cpil ?
01:50 autrijus fglock_: try -Cpil1
01:50 fglock_ autrijus: trying...
01:50 autrijus but I don't see the rx_ bug here
01:50 autrijus do you have this in your ocnfig.yml?
01:50 autrijus precompile_prelude: true
01:51 fglock_ I don't think so - checking...
01:51 autrijus it's the deafult
01:52 autrijus does this work for you?
01:52 autrijus ./pugs -Cpil1 -e '5 ~~ rx:p5/1/'
01:53 fglock_ yes
01:53 autrijus so what does not?
01:54 fglock_ it works with -Cpil2 too - I will upload my code - just a minute
01:58 fglock_ ok - sorry for the delay
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01:59 fglock_ it's in misc/Parser-Mini/read_pil.p6 - but it is just a small hack, not the real thing
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02:05 xah how's pugs?
02:05 autrijus quite happy
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02:06 autrijus fglock_: you can get a dump with
02:06 autrijus ./pugs -CPIL1-Perl5 -e1
02:06 xah autrijus: nice job
02:08 fglock_ autrijus: I get the same error. my installation might be broken.
02:08 stevan leo: ping
02:08 autrijus xah: thanks!
02:08 autrijus fglock_: might be... try a rebuild :/
02:09 xah most of you are also learning haskell?
02:09 autrijus I'd say maybe 20% :)
02:10 xah that's pretty cool.
02:12 fglock_ autrijus: you got a successful compilation of read_pil2.p6? I'll download the latest parrot tomorrow (I'm using 0.4.0 from CPAN)
02:17 autrijus you don't need parrot for that I think
02:17 fglock_ xah: learning haskell would help me a lot :)
02:17 autrijus and yes, compilation worksforme with -CPIL1-Perl5
02:18 xah fglock_: in what way?
02:18 xah i started to learn haskell few weeks ago... but got busy with other things.
02:19 xah is there a pugs faq or perl6 faq somewhere?
02:19 fglock_ xah: I could understand the source code - I can read it, but I don't understand many parts
02:21 autrijus xah: pugscdoe.org has "Overview" which may help
02:21 autrijus xah: also see the slides at bottom left of pugscode.org
02:21 fglock_ autrijus: I had a debian pugs installation, besides the svn version - I'm deleting the debian package and rebuilding the svn
02:21 autrijus ok
02:21 autrijus I'm going to be on stage in 20 mins -- bbiab
02:21 xah autrijus: ah... i remembering seeing that site. I see that you are a supporter of the trad char.
02:22 fglock_ good luck!
02:22 autrijus xah: hm? I have both trad and simp listed
02:22 autrijus fglock_: thanks!
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02:22 xah autrijus: right. But from the way you name the trad char. :)
02:22 Epix I want perl6, but i cant have it :(\
02:23 autrijus Epix: why? downloading pugs doesn't work?
02:23 autrijus xah: ah... but that's how trad char users call it officially
02:23 autrijus xah: it's the same idea that I don't call the simp char side "Su-Ti" (folk-style)
02:23 Epix autrijus: no, i just havent bothered with pugs, no offical release of p6 yet...
02:23 autrijus as the simp char users call it "Jian-Ti" (simplified-style)
02:23 autrijus Epix: oh ok... wait another year or so then.
02:24 Epix autrijus: does pugs compile to parrot and is past beta?
02:24 autrijus meanwhile you can learn some interesting languages like Ruby or IO or OCaml or Haskell
02:24 autrijus Epix: yes we do compile to parrot but no we are not past beta.
02:24 stevan is parrot past beta??
02:24 autrijus probably not.
02:25 xah autrijus: it' be interesting to know if trad char was called the zheng ti, but the standard expr today is rather "complex char" vs "simplified char".
02:25 Epix autrijus: ah, you are the author of pugs, correct?
02:25 autrijus xah: actually in taiwan it's called "canonical char" and "folk char"
02:25 autrijus Zheng-Ti and Su-Ti respectively
02:26 xah autrijus: yeah, because taiwan is filled with politics
02:26 autrijus xah: yup, but I subscribe to the idea of wikipedia.org -- "Ming cong zhu ren" (the owner gets to define the name)
02:26 autrijus xah: so that's how I treat it :)
02:26 autrijus .tw gets to define how zh-tw is named and .cn gets to define how zh-cn is named.
02:27 autrijus Epix: yes
02:27 xah autrijus: so you are just showing your political side, after all. Not because how things are really named. :)
02:27 autrijus xah: yup, I'm a card-carrying anarchist :)
02:27 Epix hm, now i need a tutorial and a good reason that p6 > python :P
02:27 autrijus take it or leave it :D
02:27 xah autrijus: but even so, i don't agree that taiwan are really all for one side of naming.
02:28 pd Epix, p6 can be all things to all people. Because, like, it isn't done yet.
02:28 autrijus Epix: see http://svn.openfoundry.org/​pugs/docs/articles/tpr.pod
02:28 obra p6 _is_ python. p6 is also antipython
02:28 autrijus Epix: download it and run "perldoc tpr.pod" should give you an ok tutorial
02:28 xah obra: huh?
02:28 autrijus xah: that's okay, I respect that :)
02:28 obra xah: I was playing on "all things to all people"
02:29 pd probably true enough, as it goes.
02:30 pd I wouldn't know, I think of myself as being more in the can't-we-all-just-get-along parrot camp.
02:31 autrijus at least we can get along with Tcl
02:32 Epix when perl6 comes out with a real, offical relase, what magic new stuff will it have to offer? it seems like the language is getting a huge overhaul... why?
02:32 pd I'll leave it at that, I already poked Coke once today about Tcl.
02:32 xah obra: the pythoner's got python3000 is the cooking.
02:33 autrijus Epix: take some time to look at my slides? :)
02:33 obra xah: they do
02:33 pd Epix, well I'll tell you one thing I noticed today, and you can take it or leave it: I wrote a simple routine in p6, and I only had to change one word to make it valid PHP. Seemed easier to me. :)
02:33 Epix autrijus: VB doesnt rock :P
02:33 autrijus Epix: http://pugscode.org/euroscon/pugs.xul
02:33 obra and there's Ruby 2.0
02:33 obra And Lisp has Arc
02:33 autrijus Epix: http://pugscode.org/euroscon/pugs.xul as well come to think about it
02:33 Epix obra: when will that be comming out?
02:33 obra When will Python 3000 be coming out.
02:33 autrijus er, I mean http://pugscode.org/euroscon/vb.xul
02:33 pd sub fib($f) { if ($f > 1) { return fib($f - 1) + fib($f - 2);} else {return 1;} }
02:34 obra If I'm working as the assistant perl6 project manager and I can't even give you a date for perl6... ;)
02:34 autrijus obra: I'm happy that nobody says "by Christmas" anymore :D
02:34 obra heh
02:34 wolverian pd, augh, parens on the if, and redundant 'returns'! the sight, it pains me.
02:35 pd wolverian, yeah, but like I said... change one keyword, and it's valid PHP. :)
02:35 pd you should see my old Perl5 that I tried to make look like Scheme.
02:35 wolverian heh.
02:36 wolverian that's better than PHP. :)
02:36 pd can't we all just get along! ;)
02:36 * pd gets to work on KumbayaPMC
02:36 xah i just learned php yesterday.
02:36 Epix pd: would that keyword be sub?
02:36 pd Epix, it would indeed.
02:37 pd in PHP, it's function instead.
02:37 wolverian pd, no, not with PHP, NEVER.
02:37 wolverian er, ever. cough.
02:37 pd wolverian, the PHP implementation I have lying around here somewhere for Parrot is pretty decent.
02:37 xah perl forks don't like php is general, is that right?
02:37 pd xah, I wouldn't generalize like that, but many language people are like that.
02:37 wolverian pd, then you only need to fix the language
02:38 pd I'm not a fan of Java, but I like Perl and PHP ok.
02:38 xah as far as i can tell, php's usage in the industry probably surpassed mod_perl by a big margin?
02:38 wolverian don't get me started on java. :)
02:38 pd they share a lot of features, and they each have their flaws
02:38 pd wolverian, heh
02:38 pd PHP is slow; perl5 can be a memory hog
02:38 pd etc. etc.
02:39 pd doesn't matter much when all you're doing is running a mysql query and printing out a webpage.
02:39 Epix autrijus: what was the feature presentation
02:39 wolverian print_to_webpage(mysql_query("SELECT $PARAM['foo']"));
02:39 pd yeah, something like that.
02:39 xah lol, look at the perl5 mug http://www.cafepress.com/pugscode.28683006
02:39 pd looks pretty similar in both languages too.
02:40 xah 5->6
02:40 wolverian you missed the sql injection vulnerability
02:40 pd oh please. :)
02:40 wolverian :)
02:41 wolverian sorry. I'll go back to reading a non-programming book now.
02:41 * pd too
02:41 pd I should get back to it, it's raining frogs.
02:43 xah anyone seen the perl6 logo?
02:44 pd are you referring to what's on the mug still?
02:44 xah Polymorphic Existential Recursive Lambda VI
02:44 xah y
02:44 pd yeah that was clever
02:44 pd I imagine that'll be Larry Wall's tombstone.
02:44 fglock_ has quit IRC ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
02:44 pd "He was clever."
02:45 pd better than "JAPH" in my book.
02:45 xah is that gonna be the official acronym?
02:45 pd they could do worse, I suppose.
02:45 wolverian please no. then people will write it as PERL more often than perl5 :)
02:45 pd PEARL :)
02:45 * pd ducksa
02:45 pd *ahh*
02:45 wolverian ducks eat pearls
02:46 wolverian (and pythons)
02:46 pd !
02:46 pd and rubies no doubt
02:47 wolverian right. :)
02:47 wolverian good taste, obviously
02:50 pd more like... shiny objects. :)
02:52 xah darn. what's a .xul file?
02:52 pd that's a mozilla thing, right?
02:53 xah seems like it
02:53 pd http://www.mozilla.org/projects/xul/
02:55 xah don't seems to be able to read it in firefox
02:55 xah it's from pugscode
02:55 xah haskell.xul
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02:55 wolverian worksforme in ff and epiphany
02:56 xah what v and os?
02:57 xah ff? epiphany?
02:57 xah i'm on os x, firefox 1.5
02:57 pd Learning Haskell* (http://pugscode.org/euroscon/haskell.xul) -- Slides from AutrijusTang's talk, requires gecko-based browsers (Firefox, Epiphany, etc.) to view
02:57 pd sounds like a neat trick.
03:02 autrijus xah: really? firefox 1.5 should just work if you point it to the url
03:02 autrijus xah: if you downloaded it, you also need takahashi.js and euroscon.css that came with it
03:03 xah ah i see. Yes it works now.
03:03 xah very nice logo! I love it.
03:03 autrijus Epix: the feature presentationis the first movie in http://pugscode.org/talks/oscon05/movies.html
03:03 autrijus xah: thanks!
03:04 Epix POE better be ported...
03:04 Epix autrijus: why did you choose hascall (i bet you get that alot...)
03:05 autrijus Epix: it's in 01Overview.html :)
03:05 autrijus Epix: mostly because it has great tools :)
03:05 autrijus parser + evaluator = 6 hours
03:05 xah mmm xul is pretty cool
03:05 autrijus xah: you tried "view source"? :)
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03:06 xah autrijus: yeah. i downloaded it first because i was on safari.
03:06 autrijus oh cool
03:06 autrijus I see
03:06 Epix autrijus: you dont hear about hascall at all these days... Perly... Is that a real word? :P
03:07 autrijus Haskell? it's only in usable form since 2000
03:07 autrijus it will take some time for the news to spread
03:07 pd yes, as in, see them perly whites?
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03:09 xah gosh i loved the haskell.xul tutorial
03:10 autrijus good to hear that :D
03:10 xah the fit use of unicode is also cool.
03:10 Epix with a console open, how do i get pugs?
03:10 autrijus Epix: apt-get pugs
03:10 autrijus Epix: (depending on which platform you are on)
03:10 Epix autrijus: just noticed that (debian) :)
03:11 autrijus good then :)
03:11 Epix god.. its apt-get install pugs! :P
03:11 pd ahh!
03:11 pd I just used svn and make and whatnot, seemed easy enough. Then again, I'm on Gentoo. :)
03:12 Epix Its been a long time sinced I perled
03:14 xah autrijus: is there a way to move back?
03:15 xah autrijus: in .xul
03:15 autrijus xah: PageUp
03:15 xah thx
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03:22 xah Eclipse supports haskell?
03:25 Epix hmm.. pugs wont apt-get
03:25 Epix This installation run will require temporarily removing the essential package e2fsprogs due to a Conflicts/Pre-Depends loop. This is often bad, but if you really want to do it, activate the APT::Force-LoopBreak option.
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03:29 autrijus Epix: I have no idea what it means
03:29 autrijus xah: yes, eclipsefp.sf.net
03:29 Epix And, i cannot get rid of e2fsprogs, apt warns me that its important and i shouldnt touch or im in deep poop
03:29 justatheory has quit IRC (Client Quit)
03:29 autrijus you can give up and build from source instead
03:30 autrijus svn co http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs (or download from a CPAN near you: http://search.cpan.org/dist/Perl6-Pugs/)
03:30 autrijus you'll need to apt-get install ghc (>=6.4) I think
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03:38 xah ho my god that larry poem is long.
03:38 xah and it has been quality
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03:51 autrijus the VB talk got the Best Lightning Talk award by popular vote-by-clapping :D
03:55 xah autrijus: which book or online material you recommend for learning haskell?
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04:01 autrijus xah: http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/READTHEM
04:02 bradb has left
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04:02 xah autrijus: thanks for the link. But is there one book or one online tutorial you recommend?
04:03 autrijus hm... one book
04:03 xah (i'm familiar with haskell books and resources)
04:03 autrijus definitely http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~gmh/book.html
04:03 autrijus one online tutorial... that would be mine ;)
04:09 xah autrijus: gosh... don't have ppt. ...
04:10 autrijus keynote can open it no?
04:10 xah ok, they have some in pdf.
04:10 autrijus also openoffice.org impress
04:10 autrijus cool
04:10 xah ah... will try to download OpenOffice
04:10 xah it can read ppt?
04:10 autrijus yup
04:10 autrijus and save too
04:10 xah thx
04:10 autrijus and convert them to pdf
04:10 * autrijus praises openoffice for sanity
04:11 xah btw, really great work you've done.
04:11 wolverian I hate openofif
04:11 xah great poems too.
04:11 wolverian er. whatever. :) too tired
04:11 autrijus heh thanks... I didn't do them all; I merely started some part of it :)
04:11 xah autrijus: it'd be nice if the poems also available as a html page,
04:11 autrijus wolverian: yeah, but it kept me from rebooting to win32
04:11 xah so that people can read. (and with author attributions)
04:12 autrijus xah: http://svn.openfoundry.org/pug​s/docs/talks/larry_mariner.txt
04:12 autrijus it's part of pugs source tree
04:12 xah autrijus: html better, as .txt don't get high ranking on google
04:12 xah i noticed.
04:13 xah autrijus: you've abroad?
04:13 xah been.
04:13 xah you've been abroad?
04:15 xah autrijus: i think i read somewhere that implies you don't leave taiwan?
04:16 autrijus xah: eh? I won't stay much in taiwan anymore :)
04:16 autrijus so you might read it backwards
04:16 xah autrijus: maybe off topic... where'd you be going?
04:19 autrijus xah: it's no secret... .il, .de, .pt, maybe .es, maybe .at again, then possibly .uk; .ca possible too
04:19 xah lol. but that's great!
04:19 xah all the countries want you.
04:20 xah ummm i see no .us ? :)
04:20 autrijus boycotting them.
04:20 xah lol. good deed.
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04:24 autrijus actually just the current administraion. :) we'll see if it gets better in the next one...
04:29 obra what's in .pt?
04:30 autrijus some workshop
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04:43 ingy_ hi autrijus
04:44 autrijus ingy_: hey
04:44 autrijus how's .tw?
04:44 obra     heh
04:46 ingy_ autrijus: it's a really nice place. you should check it out
04:46 ingy_ maybe some day
04:50 hcchien ingy_: what are you hacking now?
04:51 vel has left
04:52 autrijus ingy_: cool
04:59 whiteg hcchien: you should just come here and see all the stickers on the wall
05:00 whiteg hcchien: then you will know what he and gugod are hacking on
05:01 autrijus mmm ingy and his stickers
05:01 * autrijus is still preparing pugs talk... going to be on air in 30 mins
05:03 autrijus # http://pugscode.org/osdc/combined-2.jpg
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05:52 stevan autrijus++ # Evolve or die;
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07:36 gaal morning!
07:49 r0nny morning gaal
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07:50 nothingmuch hola gaal
07:54 autrijus yo
08:00 gaal heya :)
08:00 gaal sooooo, i
08:00 gaal 'm tryign to resume state re: pragmas
08:04 gaal I was blocked on the following: I need the parser to put some data on every node in the tree, data that the runtimes have access to. The Perl 5 patch that did this was simple, because the parser and the runtime are too chummy; we avoid preciesely this chumminess in pugs.
08:07 gaal I think we need something along the lines of expRule; instead of it returning Pos (mkPos pos1 pos2) (unwrap exp), it could return Prag pragmas Pos (mkPos pos1 pos2) (unwrap exp)
08:08 gaal I'm not sure however if expRule is applied exactly in the same places as a pragma opportunity would be
08:10 gaal also this implies that pragmatic state, in the parser, works like getPosition and setPosition; with updateParserState. Is that concerptually correct?
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08:15 gaal So there's this pattern I'm not sure I understand fully, but which also seems a little fishy to me, this wrapping and unwrapping of Exps with (say) Pos. In expRule there's that unwrap, which would stip off any pragmatic state, but also other state that uses this decoration. Does this scale?
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08:23 autrijus nope.
08:23 autrijus it's Very Bad Idea (tm)
08:34 gaal so what's the better approach?
08:34 gaal and: how do we define what constitutes a pragma point?
08:34 gaal i.e., what "statements" need a pragma list?
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08:45 gaal Is it a good idea to follow the monadic getPosition and store the current pragma list in the parser state? That way (if I'm not mistaken) blocks/scopes can do
08:46 gaal prePrag <- getPragmas ; ruleWhateverBlock ; setPosition prePrag --modulo syntax etc.
08:47 gaal err
08:47 gaal setPragmas prePrag, of course.
08:50 gaal (Interesting: setPosition is only called in one place, Token.hs:484. The rest of the time positions are just constrtucted and never mutated.)
08:51 gaal oh, duh, that code in Token handles #line, which of course blatantly changes the position.
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09:01 gaal ok, I'm thinking back to your "Ann" suggestion, autrijus, which was supposed to unify Cxt, Pos, and Prag annotations IIRC. should this be a union or a full record? ie Cxt Cxt | Pos Pos | Prag Prag or MkAnn { cxt :: Cxt, pos :: Pos, prag :: [Prag] }  ?
09:05 dduncan question: is "pugs -c Foo.pm" the same as "pugs -e "require Foo;" ... or do they have different symantecs? ...
09:05 dduncan I only want the code to compile, but under the situation I'm in, I have to do it within a -e, so that I can first execute a use-lib
09:06 dduncan the code I wrote seems to work, but I was wondering if there might be symantics issues
09:06 dduncan fyi, the code is: find blib6/lib -name '*.pm' -exec ./pugs -e "@*INC.unshift('blib6/lib'); say 'require \'{}\';'; require '{}';" ';'
09:06 dduncan that was modified from something autrijus wrote yesterday
09:09 gaal they are different because -c Foo.pm compiles the module itself, not the state of having loaded the module. For example, %INC would not be set.
09:10 gaal and if the module is sensitive to its caller, it may do different things depending on whether it's used or run.
09:11 dduncan do you know of a way to add 'lib' items when using -c with Pugs?
09:11 gaal if you're familiar with Java, consider that a class may have an explicit entry point that's only called when the class is invoked directly; it's possible to get the same semantics in perl with the if (!caller) pattern
09:11 gaal (that's the p5 spelling)
09:11 dduncan all I wanted was -c with an added arg to specify more search dirs ... so that any 'use' statements in one module work to find others
09:12 dduncan this -e thing was a workaround because I didn't know one
09:12 gaal there is a -I cmdline arg...
09:12 gaal I think it even works :-)
09:13 dduncan will check ...
09:13 gaal under the hood it does something very similar to -e, too :)
09:14 gaal btw, be careful of shell portability when doing these things, and of possible paths with whitespace. :-(
09:15 dduncan the search path is a constant ... its just 'blib6/lib'
09:16 dduncan I'm just trying to find which part of the pugs docs lists its command line options
09:16 gaal pugs::run
09:17 gaal oh. -I isn't implemented.
09:17 gaal wanna do that? Pugs.hs.
09:18 dduncan yes, I just saw that
09:19 dduncan it said it wasn't implemented on purpose due to perl 5
09:19 dduncan anyway, I'll commit what I did before, which does what I want (detect compile errors), and someone can improve it if they want
09:22 gaal dduncan: "it wasn't implemented on purpose due to perl 5": ???
09:22 dduncan I'll quote: ...
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09:22 dduncan =item C<-l>, C<-d>, and C<-w> ... are ignored for compatibility with Perl 5.
09:23 dduncan so due to perl 5, they aren't done
09:23 gaal that's -l, ell, not -I, aiiiiiii.
09:23 gaal -I is not implemented because nobody did it yet :-)
09:24 dduncan did you say aiiii?
09:24 dduncan I thought you said elll ...
09:24 gaal -w is ignored because warnings will be on by default
09:24 dduncan which made sense at the time...
09:24 gaal -l because with &say it's less attractive, or less needed
09:25 gaal -d, I bet, WILL be implemented... sometime. :-)
09:25 dduncan anyway, I added util/make-test-p6-compile.sh ...
09:25 gaal cool
09:25 dduncan it was to help isolate /ext failures faster
09:26 gaal nice; how do you envision its use in the smoke process?
09:26 dduncan it is a subset of what make test/smoke does
09:26 dduncan while the others recompile a .pm for every .t that includes it, or includes a .pm that includes it ...
09:27 dduncan the one I committed goes to the .pm directly, greatly reducing the duplicate warnings spat out due to the same module not compiling
09:28 dduncan ideally it would be built in to the make process, so one could say 'make compile-test' but I haven't the tuits to do that
09:28 gaal good. what's the typical usage pattern? do it before running make smoke?
09:28 dduncan so you just invoke it directly after 'make', instead of 'make smoke'
09:28 dduncan then when all the errors reported are gone, you do a make smoke to just check runtime errors
09:29 dduncan the basic idea is that the new script brings attention to the low hanging fruit ... syntax errors
09:29 dduncan so they can be dealt with early, leaving the smoke reports for harder stuff
09:29 gaal does this compile one huge blob with everything? or each .pm separately (with its deps)? to be correct it should probably do something in the middle.
09:29 dduncan in my case ...
09:30 dduncan this being a shell script, it reinvokes pugs separately for each .pm
09:30 dduncan so no huge blog
09:30 dduncan blob
09:31 dduncan there is still the isolation that you get with make smoke etc
09:31 gaal huge blob would be wrong; but *every* .pm may do the wrong thing too when we have platform-dependent stuff.
09:31 gaal but this is probably good enough for now :)
09:31 dduncan well, this was meant to be a quick and dirty thing anyway
09:31 gaal right. dduncan++
09:32 dduncan fyi, the whole script is a one liner, and there are a bunch of comments
09:33 dduncan now that using this is making the task a bit easier, I was going to go through the perl 6 code in /ext and fix syntax errors
09:34 dduncan a lot of the ones I see now are due to the named argument declarations not being updated when pugs was ... some were but some weren't
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10:16 dduncan have to investigate, but it appears Pugs doesn't parse the new way to call private methods, such as $self!method
10:19 autrijus no, it doesn't. is there a test?
10:19 dduncan looking for one
10:19 autrijus t/oo/method/* doesn't ocntain one
10:20 dduncan but it does seem to parse declarations of private methods ... I think
10:20 dduncan perlbot seems to be down ... haven't seen commit reports in awhile
10:20 dduncan though it is connected
10:23 dduncan ?eval class Foo { method :bar () { say 'hello'; } }
10:23 evalbot_8081 is now known as evalbot_8085
10:23 evalbot_8085 Error:  unexpected "{" expecting term postfix, operator, ":", ",", postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or "}"
10:23 autrijus dduncan: yes, "my method" has always been working iirc"
10:23 dduncan ?eval class Foo { method bar () { say 'hello'; } }
10:23 evalbot_8085 undef
10:23 * kane_ waves at autrijus
10:23 autrijus kane_: yo!
10:24 dduncan anyway, I'm going through ext now ... already committed (locally) replacements of :foo with my foo
10:24 autrijus kane_: M::I and M::AI is going to 1)suck less and 2)getting some JIB love
10:24 dduncan also some ?$arg with $arg?
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10:24 metaperl stevan: ping?
10:34 dduncan okay, two more commits pushed
10:35 dduncan some remaining /ext failures are due to $self!method not compiling yet, and others I'm not yet sure what the problem is ... libwww-perl being an example of the latter
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10:53 autrijus k, I can take a look tomorrow
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11:04 fglock_ autrijus: re my compiling problems yesterday: the problem happens with named rules:
11:04 autrijus ah
11:04 autrijus that explains it
11:04 autrijus got a onelineer?
11:04 fglock_ pugs -Cpil1-perl5 -e ' rule ww { \w+ }; ' - &rx_ is compiled as a macro
11:04 fglock_ pugs -Cpil1-perl5 -e ' rule { \w+ }; ' - compiles as a sub
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11:05 fglock_ &rx_ is defined in Prelude
11:06 fglock_ anonymous rules work
11:06 autrijus confirmed. fixing
11:07 fglock_ thanks! I was crazy trying to find out the problem
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11:15 fglock_ bbiab &
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11:55 xunxin Does anyone know why pugs spends so much time on loading Prelude? It's really a pain to run even a "hello, world" p6 program.
11:56 autrijus xunxin: did you use precompiled prelude?
11:56 xunxin no, but I want to know how to recomile it.
11:57 xunxin Can I find any instructions on Pugs doc?
11:57 autrijus look at config.yml
11:57 autrijus there should be a "precompiled_prelude: true"
11:58 xunxin ah, thanks, autrijus!
11:58 xunxin BTW, recent Pugs revision broke on Win32. :=)
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12:00 autrijus oh? what's the error?
12:00 xunxin hm, it seems to me "cd .." failed on nmake.
12:01 xunxin It can builds setup.exe successfully, but failed on the command "cd ..".
12:05 autrijus can you nopaste a log?
12:05 autrijus http://sial.org/pbot/perl6
12:06 xunxin autrijus, I'm happy to provide such detailed output some time later, but now, because this is my friend's machine. sorry.
12:07 xunxin but not now.
12:07 gaal someone mentioned having to patch the makefile to do cd ..\.., but I don't remember who or where.
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12:07 gaal or why that was necessary :(
12:07 autrijus xunxin: ok, that's fine
12:07 autrijus I'll try win32 later
12:07 xunxin okay
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12:35 fglock how can I recompile just the Prelude?
12:40 fglock 'mv ./src/Pugs/PreludePC.hs ./src/Pugs/PreludePC.hs.bak' seems to work
12:45 autrijus sure, or touch src/perl6/Prelude.pm
12:45 autrijus I need to leave strategicdat aoffice now... I'll check back tomorrow morning
12:45 autrijus in, oh, 8 hours
12:45 * autrijus waves &
12:45 fglock bye
12:47 autrijus much better docs: http://svn.openfoundry.org/modins​tall/trunk/lib/Module/Install.pm
12:47 autrijus &
12:47 autrijus Alias++
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13:27 kane-xs hmm.. p6 use syntax deemed insufficient :(
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13:35 kane-xs seen rafl
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13:44 rafl kane-xs: I've seen rafl 0 seconds ago (saying: kane-xs: I've seen rafl 0 seconds ago).
13:45 kane-xs argh.. the recursion, it hurts!
13:46 kane-xs rafl: i just pushed a new S22 that points out what pugs needs to do to support jibs... i noticed the Repository section was still in 'past rantings' -- i think it deserves a nice spot in the doc :)
13:49 * rafl pulls
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13:52 * kane-xs watches perl hate him
13:54 kane-xs hm, a -d test fails in a script, i run it manualyl and it succeeds.. absolute path.. hmmm
13:55 kane-xs d'oh, code in wrong order
13:57 rafl Use ACME::Palindrome and the order of the chars in a word doesn't matter anymore.
13:57 rafl kane-xs: Hm, the repo stuff is still in Past Rantings/Notes/Etc
13:58 bradb_ is now known as bradb
13:58 kane-xs rafl: that was my point :) i think you've fleshed it out enough to make it a 'proper' section
13:59 rafl kane-xs: Oh, OK. You said that you pushed a new version. Thought that included that change.
13:59 rafl kane-xs: Doing that now.
13:59 kane-xs rafl: no, i pushed a section on 'what pugs needs to do'
13:59 kane-xs when i scroled though it i noticed the repo stuff still being in the 'notes' stage
14:00 rafl Hm, where should it go?
14:00 kane-xs a =head1 above the pugs stuf i'd say
14:01 kane-xs around line 608 or so
14:03 rafl Well, during writing JIB::Repository I noticed that the current layout isn't that good. I'm going to revise it a bit.
14:03 kane-xs prototyping++ # you learn things
14:03 kane-xs what turned out to be not so good?
14:03 kane-xs btw, alternatives work again in JIB:: now.. just writing tests
14:04 rafl Can't remember. Something was "ugly".
14:05 kane-xs btw, does svn support an 'mv' with keeping history and so on?
14:05 kane-xs in case we want to rename some stuff
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14:06 nnunley kane-xs Yes.
14:06 nnunley svn mv <file> works.
14:06 rafl kane-xs: svk as well.
14:07 kane-xs yay
14:07 rafl kane-xs: Actually I want to be able to group dists by all meta information that is available.
14:07 rafl kane-xs: author, distname and language by default.
14:08 clkao but it will be a painful thing when doing merge that should bring the rename. luckily svk does it right.
14:08 rafl kane-xs: But I'm not sure how to reflect that in a repository layout.
14:08 rafl kane-xs: Any hints?
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14:10 kane-xs rafl: you suggested categories as directories, and a file with the contents
14:10 kane-xs rafl: that sounded good -- did that not work out?
14:11 rafl So we have thins like dists/languages/perl.gz and dists/languages/perl/kane.gz?
14:11 rafl kane-xs: But is kane a module or an author?
14:12 kane-xs good point -- that means either policy or disambiguate
14:12 kane-xs if you want to catogorize by modules too (which seems prudent), splitting that out makes sense
14:12 rafl kane-xs: So we would have dists/languages/perl/authors/kane.gz and dists/languages/perl/modules/kane.gz - not that nice in some way.
14:12 kane-xs rafl: symlinks can do a lot here
14:12 kane-xs as languages/perl/modules would be the same as modules/perl/
14:12 kane-xs for example
14:13 rafl Actually it would be modules/language/perl
14:14 kane-xs brb
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14:23 kane-xs rafl: right.. or whatever we should link to for 'convenience'
14:23 kane-xs rafl: but there's little stopping us to link to long names for now, and abbreviate as needed... enve if it looks overly verbose now, there's no ambiguity, which is Good
14:43 feng has joined #perl6
14:56 nothingmuch http://www.critticall.com/
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15:23 stevan metaperl: pong
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16:53 william_firstdev can I invite someone here to be  a section administrator of a IT forum setup by some Chinese guy?  
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17:25 clkao autrijus: i did some very evil thing
17:25 clkao which might enable pugs js backend to use perl5cpan
17:32 * fglock wonders why PIL2 is so verbose 'PLit { pLit = PVal { pVal = VStr "hello" } }'
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17:50 Limbic_Region clkao - s/evil/evil but clever/
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18:01 jdv79 Limbic_Region, how goes?
18:07 Limbic_Region getting ready for trip to the Philippines on Sunday - so well but extremely busy
18:07 Limbic_Region you?
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18:11 jdv79 not bad, thanks
18:11 jdv79 that's a trip.
18:13 Limbic_Region I have just given up trying to be productive or participate in any meaningful way to a lot of projects
18:13 Limbic_Region I still try and stay informed so that if the time arives when I actually have free time - I don't have to spend the time relearning everything
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19:47 chip seen autrijus
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20:13 r0nny i got a problem with a ctor
20:14 r0nny i call $.arrt=Foo::Bar.new; in a BUILD submethod, and instead of creating the object it saves the reference of the new method
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20:18 r0nny anyone ?
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21:12 r0nny anyone there ?
21:13 pmurias I'am :)
21:15 r0nny hmm
21:15 r0nny i got a problem with a ctor
21:16 r0nny i call $.arrt=Foo::Bar.new; in a BUILD submethod, and instead of creating the object it saves the reference of the new method
21:16 r0nny using a pugs pulled from svn about 10 minutes ago
21:20 pmurias i'm not familiar with pugs internals so i can't help you much :(
21:20 pmurias did it work with previous revisions?
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21:23 r0nny pmurias: yes - it did
21:23 r0nny pmurias: maybe it broke casue they are changing to a new version of something
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23:19 clkao what's the javascript equivalent for *@data when calling function?
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