Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-12-07

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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01:57 autrijus I'm in debby's talk about how much perl5 sucks from a teaching-it-to-undergrads point of view
01:57 autrijus many many excellent points
01:57 Khisanth teaching it sucks but grading it sucks even more!
01:58 autrijus Khisanth++
01:58 Khisanth imagine a young tybalt89 in your class ...
01:59 Khisanth which conference are you at ?
01:59 autrijus osdc.com.au
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02:03 jdv79 is it really that bad?
02:03 jdv79 i'd like to see the slides on that one
02:04 autrijus nod, will ask for it
02:04 autrijus almost all of it it's addressed by p6
02:05 wolverian what isn't? that's the interesting part..
02:05 autrijus multiparadigm in particular
02:07 autrijus completely different things look similar
02:07 autrijus eg {...(hash)} vs {...(closure)}
02:08 Khisanth oO
02:08 wolverian make hash { } enforced? :)
02:08 Khisanth the freepan wiki is a bit messed up ...
02:12 autrijus debby said she'll make the slides available online and ping me about it
02:12 autrijus apparently a lot of people want task and tag based navigation for cpan.
02:12 autrijus (heck, I want it too :))
02:13 Khisanth like the openjsan tag cloud?
02:14 autrijus yup
02:14 Khisanth nice, if the tags are accurate :)
02:24 autrijus the author gets to decide and the tasklist people get to approve
02:24 autrijus so probably going to be accurate to some degree
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02:49 autrijus oh wow. http://loveperl.com/
02:50 autrijus maybe _that_ is the solution for cpan navigation
02:51 dduncan that is funny
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03:15 obra autrijus: heh
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05:55 what3 this doesn't seem to work: my $userinput = $*IN;
05:55 what3 is this supported?
05:55 what3 has anyone else tried it?
05:58 Khisanth what3: my $userinput = =$*IN;
05:59 what3 thx that worked
05:59 what3 i don't understand the extra "=" though
05:59 Khisanth the first is the assignment operator the second is the erm I forgot the name
05:59 Khisanth I think the perl6 version of <>
05:59 what3 oh ok
05:59 Khisanth unless there is a =<>
06:00 what3 yeah i was reading the equivalents of the reserved variables in the pugs docs but i didn't see that extra "=" in there
06:00 what3 maybe i missed it
06:00 gaal unary = is "next", which is like readline on filehandles but more generally an iterator's next "thing".
06:01 what3 ah ok
06:01 what3 thx for the info guys
06:02 gaal Khisanth: there's not a =<> directly; but it turns out eg. say =<somefile> acts like cat because <> is a quote operator, and = will open a file if it isn't opened yet.
06:03 Khisanth like cat? but isn't = lazy?
06:04 gaal but say isn't...
06:05 gaal anyway it's a golf thing; <> quotes words so you can't say =<a filename with spaces>
06:05 gaal or therefore generally =<<$filename>>
06:06 gaal = is context dependent. fire up an interactive pugs and enter
06:06 gaal =<AUTHORS>
06:07 gaal you'll only get the first line, since pugs' interactive valuation imposes scalar context
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06:07 gaal no wait, that's not true.
06:08 gaal you do get only one line, but I can't explain why :)
06:09 gaal e.g. when you say
06:09 gaal my @arr = <a b c>
06:09 gaal you get the complete array, obviously not in forced scalar context.
06:09 gaal perhaps there's DWIM code there.
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06:10 gaal $work &
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08:21 nothingmuch what does it mean for a method to be declared as 'type myName() const {  }' ?
08:22 wolverian in what language?
08:26 nothingmuch shit
08:26 nothingmuch err, i thought i was posting in #c++
08:26 wolverian :)
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08:30 nothingmuch dum dee dum la la al aaaaaaa
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09:08 meppl guten morgen
09:09 rafl Good morning
09:09 rafl kane_: I've got the repository layout into a good shape yesterday.
09:10 kane_ cool
09:10 kane_ did you commit that to S22?
09:10 rafl Only some more explanations are missing. Then I'll push it.
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09:11 rafl should be done until 3pm.
09:11 rafl Maybe you can hold yourself back from commiting to S22? Merging ascii art is pain.. :-)
09:11 kane_ neat, i'm looking forward to reading it
09:12 kane_ heh.. shouldn't it Just Work? as you're merely adding a section?
09:13 rafl Yes. But I had that problem once with another project. I don't want to experience it again ;-)
09:17 rafl Maybe I get it done a bit earlier. I'll have a practical course at 11.30 which mainly consists of waiting..
09:18 kane_ i'll hold off with commits then :)
09:19 rafl Thank you.
09:19 * rafl runs to university
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14:58 xinming since PIL stands for Pugs Intermediate Language, How about PIR?
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15:03 GeJ Parrot Intermediate Representation
15:04 GeJ according to : http://www.parrotcode.org/docs/intro.html
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15:32 xinming hm, by the way, will perl 6 use kwid format by default instead of pod?
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16:31 masak xinming: as for pod being default, I haven't heard anything suggesting that. my guess is that they well be about equally default :)
16:36 rafl Doesn't say the perldoc synopsis draft something about that?
16:38 xinming masak: I've read the S26, It's said that both pod and kwid will be supported by default. :-/
16:39 rafl Why should we have a default at all?
16:40 rafl It we recognize kwid syntax it's kwid, when we see some pod, it's pod.
16:40 xinming rafl: hmm, default will make people switch, hmm, Maybe I think I should say suggest. :-P
16:41 rafl What's the benefit of switching from A to B?
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16:41 rafl Both do the same thing.
16:41 * pd wanders off to look up WTF a 'kwid' is
16:42 rafl pd: Wee docs/AES/S26draft.pod
16:42 pd aha, "KWiki Inline Documentation"
16:42 xinming rafl: How about kernel 2.4 or 2.6 series of Linux? :-) they both do the same thing. making a system run.
16:42 rafl Err, s/W/S/
16:43 xinming well, In fact, I prefer the newer thing. As why It comes out is because of the lack of the old ones. though not to replace the old ones.
16:44 pd hrm. Yep, I guess in theory I'd prefer pod, just because I like multi-line comment blocks better for such things.
16:44 rafl xinming: The benefit of 2.6 about 2.4 is much clearer. What features does kwid have that pod doesn't have?
16:46 xinming rafl: S26 give an example of nested list.
16:46 xinming and said that in pod, it will be much longer
16:47 xinming though we don't need nested list for every document. :-)
16:47 rafl xinming: pod can do the same.
16:47 rafl xinming: But linux 2.6 can do things that 2.4 can't do, so I think it's not a good comparison.
16:48 pd rafl, how so, really...
16:48 rafl pd: Err?
16:48 pd rafl, linux 2.6 vs. 2.4
16:48 pd it seems to me that they're broadly comparable
16:49 rafl preemtive stuff for example.
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16:49 pd so they changed some locks around; userspace only notices that it's slightly more responsive when it works
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16:50 pd that'd be like saying that you can't compare any two flavors of Unix because one invariably has a different implementation
16:50 rafl That's one of the features that 2.4 doesn't have. There are some more, of course.
16:51 pd however, since flavors of Unix generally share the same functionally equivalent syscalls, you can in fact compare them
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17:22 fglock how do I 'push' a pair into a hash?
17:23 fglock $h{$p.key}=$p.value looks too verbose
17:24 fglock the pair comes from a function, so I would need a temporary variable to do this way
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17:38 fglock another question: how to slurp() from stdin?
17:43 cognominal "42" ~~ rx| qw( 42 ) | crashes pugs :(
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17:45 fglock cognominal: you may have to use a newer pugs (it works here)
17:45 fglock but you want "42" ~~ rx| 42 |
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17:50 cognominal now, I want to test a match on list or an array
17:51 cognominal that should work according to my underrstanding of the spec about the ~~ operator
17:56 fglock do you mean: 42 ~~ any( @a )
17:58 fglock I don't know if this helps - it returns a Junction (bool::false | bool::true) instead of bool::true
17:59 fglock but this works: ?( 42 ~~ any(1,2,3,6,42) )
18:02 xinming fglock: my $x = ~list(=$*IN);
18:02 xinming fglock: for slurpy the stdin
18:03 * xinming isn't so sure about this.
18:03 xinming it seems that pugs have a bug with get value from stdin,
18:04 fglock xinming: it works - thanks!
18:05 xinming ?eval my $x = ~("haha\n","test\n"); $x.perl
18:05 evalbot_8085 is now known as evalbot_8098
18:05 evalbot_8098 "\\\"haha\\n test\\n\""
18:05 xinming hmm, I think I found another bug. :-P
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18:14 xinming ?eval my $x = ~("haha","test"); $x.perl
18:14 evalbot_8098 "\\\"haha test\""
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18:17 xinming fglock: my $x = ~list(=$*IN).as("%s",'');
18:17 xinming fglock: this is the correct version, otherwise, pugs will add a space before each line except the first line.
18:19 * xinming wonders if add line precedure should be disabled if the previous line ends with "\n"
18:19 xinming s/add line/add space before line/
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18:48 cognominal fglock: S05 says # An interpolated array:
18:48 cognominal     / @cmds /
18:48 cognominal is matched as if it were an alternation of its elements:
18:49 cognominal I agree that using any is somewhat equivalent
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19:39 rafl kane_: Sorry. No time for S22 during the day. Writing the explanation now.
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20:33 particle_ any feather users know if & where bison/yacc is installed?
20:33 particle_ ...where are my manners... hello all!
20:33 Limbic_Region salutations particle_
20:34 Limbic_Region if which yacc doesn't turn up anything and neither does man yacc I would say it is in a very non-standard directory if it is installed at all
20:34 * Limbic_Region has a feather acct (and is using it to chat at this very moment) but doesn't have shell access from work
20:34 particle_ agreed.
20:35 particle_ should i install it locally, or request it for everyone? i have a feeling more than one parrot developer will be needing it
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20:53 Limbic_Region *shrug* I don't use feather for anything other than IRC access
20:54 * particle_ emailed juerd
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20:57 fglock cognominal: re '/ @cmds /': this depends on PGE, which is still under implementation
20:58 fglock (Parrot Grammar Engine)
20:59 particle_ interpolation of perl vars is not yet implemented in PGE's P6Rules compiler
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21:09 kane_ rafl: no worries
21:09 fglock what does 'Invert' means (in a PIL App node)
21:11 particle_ juerd++
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21:13 fglock ok, found it - it doesn't mean Invert, but Invocant :)
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21:19 rafl kane_: pushing.
21:19 rafl kane_: I guess my phrases aren't very clear. Maybe you can improve it a bit.
21:20 rafl (If you get my idea :-)
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21:29 kane_ i'll take a peek tomorrow morning ;)
21:33 rafl kane_: It's not that much? Maybe you can take a quick look now? If you're fine with it I'd do some more implementation work this night.
21:37 rafl kane_: I like the JIB::Inst and JIB::Package::* stuff, btw.
21:39 rafl kane_: That does almost everything that I wanted WRT different installation types.
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21:49 kane_ rafl: i'll pull it now then
21:49 kane_ rafl: thanks, it took some working out, but i think it DTRT now
21:53 rafl kane_: Don't spend to much time with looking at my ascii art. The principle is explained below it.
21:59 kane_ rafl: the design makes sense -- we'll have to pick a few configurations we think are useful.. if we did all of them, they're near infinite :)
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22:16 rafl kane_: Yes. Therefor I choose author, module name and language.
22:16 rafl kane_: Do you have a better default?
22:16 kane_ rafl: nope, sounds good
22:17 kane_ it's author & module now for cpan, and that works pretty well
22:17 rafl OK.
22:17 * rafl starts JIB::Repository hacking again
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