Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-12-11

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:00 svnbot6 r8164 | autrijus++ | * PIL.Native: stub evaluator, roundtrip prettyprinter,
00:00 svnbot6 r8164 | autrijus++ |   readline-enabled shell, etc etc.
00:04 audreyt PJF: sure! probe into %SYSTEMDRIVE%/ghc/ghc-* and choose the lexographically largest one?
00:04 PJF That's the plan.
00:04 PJF Thanks Audrey!
00:04 audreyt (that's going to bite us in ghc 6.10.0 -- so if you want to be even more meticulous, go ahead :-))
00:05 audreyt pjf++
00:12 Alias_ I thought we did that yesterday
00:12 audreyt we _talked_ about doing that :)
00:12 Alias_ ah
00:12 audreyt pjf just jfdi'ed
00:13 PJF You can fix my code after it's committed, Alias.  Just look for the bits marked 'XXX' and follow the instructions.
00:13 PJF Actually, I'm hoping you can test it on your Windows-flavoured system to make sure it works.
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00:14 svnbot6 r8165 | autrijus++ | * Unbreak Pugs.Parser from gaal++'s s/extract/extractPlaceholderVars/g change.
00:14 svnbot6 r8165 | autrijus++ | * `foo.bar` is now always parsed as `::foo.bar` instead of
00:14 svnbot6 r8165 | autrijus++ |   `foo(.bar)`, unless there is a unary foo() function in scope.
00:14 svnbot6 r8165 | autrijus++ | * Nullary methods in class scope no longer participate into parsing as unary
00:14 svnbot6 r8165 | autrijus++ |   functions.  This fixes the infinite-BUILD problem:
00:14 svnbot6 r8165 | autrijus++ |     class foo {}
00:14 svnbot6 r8165 | autrijus++ |     class bar { has $.foo is rw; submethod BUILD () { $.foo = foo.new } }
00:14 svnbot6 r8165 | autrijus++ |     say bar.new;
00:15 svnbot6 r8165 | autrijus++ |   Thanks to r0nny and xinming for their persistence in bringing this issue up.
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00:15 * audreyt feels productive :)
00:16 Alias_ We can put a stop to that
00:16 * audreyt takes a short break to implement provides: support in Module::Install
00:16 audreyt right, like, lunch
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00:36 audreyt new M::I released -- going back to pugs
00:42 svnbot6 r8166 | juerd++ | Putting feather's website (still one page) in pugs' repository.
00:42 svnbot6 r8166 | juerd++ | This overcomes the need for a wiki, still enabling everyone to contribute.
00:42 svnbot6 r8166 | juerd++ | Please *do* contribute!!
00:45 Juerd_ audreyt: I'd like to ask you to move your svk guide there
00:45 Juerd_ audreyt: A link on the home page will also do. In that case, just ask me to do it :)
00:45 audreyt Juerd_: can you do it for me? I'm going to airport soonish
00:45 audreyt yup :)
00:45 Juerd_ audreyt: Which one?
00:45 clkao where?
00:46 Juerd_ audreyt: Move or link?
00:47 Alias_ This is a  normal message
00:47 Alias_ Please ignore me, making a Wink demonstration
00:47 Alias_ bye!
00:47 Alias_ has left "Leaving"
00:49 Juerd_ I'll move it, then everyone can help edit it
00:50 audreyt Juerd_: move is better
00:53 PJF M::I gurus: I'm hoping to save the path to 'ghc' in order to facilitate detection of 'ghc-pkg'.  Can I stuff that into $self->{ghc} in Module::Install::Pugs, or is there a better place?
00:54 PJF Better yet, can I cache the result to assert_ghc_pkg?  Otherwise has_ghc_package goes through all the work of refinding ghc-pkg every time it's called.
00:54 svnbot6 r8167 | juerd++ | svk.html
00:54 svnbot6 r8168 | juerd++ | Add note that the site is synced every 5 minutes.
00:55 audreyt PJF: sure, just memoize it
00:55 audreyt using a per-object cache
00:55 audreyt each M::I plugin is responsible for managing their own stash, so that's safe
00:56 PJF Using a per-object cache is actually a little easier at the moment, since it allows me to pass a hint to assert_ghc_pkg when we first call it from assert_ghc, but not pass it anything thereafter.
00:57 PJF Oh!  Do you mean memoize it on a per-object basis?  Sorry, mis-parsed.  Can I use $self->{ghc} instead, or will that break M::I expectations of derived classes not adding new attributes?
00:58 audreyt there is no such expectation :)
00:58 audreyt attrs are completely plugin managed
00:58 audreyt M::I only interacts via methods.
00:58 PJF Huzzah!  My code is now just ugly, rather than shockingly ugly.
00:58 audreyt huzzah
00:58 Juerd_ PJF: If you could do the same to http://feather.perl6.nl/, that'd be great :P
00:59 PJF You want me to make feather.perl6.nl shockingly ugly as well?
00:59 Juerd_ No, ugly rather than shockingly ugly :)
00:59 PJF I think it looks just fine. ;)
01:00 PJF Although you could probably apply a wee stylesheet if you wanted to pretty it up.
01:00 Juerd_ Do you have committer access?
01:01 PJF Jured: To feather.perl6? Not that I'm aware of.
01:01 Juerd_ No, pugs
01:01 Juerd_ This is in pugs/docs/feather
01:01 PJF Oh yes, to pugs I certainly do.
01:01 Juerd_ Then be my guest, if you have any idea for the stylesheet
01:01 PJF I'll see what I can do about making it look a little nicer then. ;)
01:01 Juerd_ Thanks
01:02 PJF I take it you won't object too much if I enforce my strongly held XHTML beliefs onto it?
01:02 PJF s/enforce/impose/
01:02 Juerd_ I don't :)
01:07 Juerd_ I'm going to bed
01:07 Juerd_ Good night!
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01:09 PJF Night Juerd.
01:12 audreyt lunch... bbiab
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01:21 svnbot6 r8169 | pjf++ | XHTML strict
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01:26 PJF Audrey: Is http://www.pugscode.org/css/perl.css stealable for use in http://feather.perl6.nl/ ?
01:28 Juerd_ It's the perl.org stylesheet
01:29 Juerd_ But I'm sleeping :)
01:29 PJF I thought it looked very familiar.  It doesn't come with any attribution.
01:29 PJF Cute.  I broke ghc: ghc.exe: internal error: update_fwd: unknown/strange object  0
01:31 audreyt PJF: sure, it's stealable :)
01:31 audreyt PJF: during a partial rebuild?
01:32 audreyt or during execution?
01:32 PJF audreyt: During a standard 'make'.  Re-running it made it all happy.
01:33 PJF Could have something to do with me changing the windows priority half-way through, and sprinkling ghc with signals.
01:33 audreyt yup. it's a known issue on the GHC RTS on windows
01:33 audreyt (RTS = runtime system)
01:33 PJF It's running 'make test' happily now, though.  Time for me to review my detection code and submit.
01:33 audreyt cool!
01:34 audreyt any code you submit will be subject to multiple reviews afterwards anyway, so a good rule-of-thumb is "when in doubt, commit" -- i.e. sanity checking if you have time, but don't worry if you don't :)
01:35 PJF I have time, and like to summarise everything into the commit message.  I've changed a few things.
01:35 PJF There's a few bits of code that use $ENV{GHC} || 'ghc', which is no longer desirable.
01:35 audreyt nodnod
01:35 audreyt excellent
01:35 audreyt PJF++ # bringing sanity to the part that most needs it (build system)
01:36 audreyt ingy++ # coming up with a build system that even works
01:38 PJF Is GHC correctly written 'GHC' or 'ghc' in documentation?
01:39 audreyt it's an acronym (_unlike_ Pugs or Perl)
01:40 audreyt so GHC is correct; use "ghc" if you only want to talk about the executable
01:40 PJF Thanks!
01:40 audreyt np :)
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01:46 azuroth eval my $a = 1..10; my $b = pop $a; say $b; say $a;
01:47 azuroth ?eval my $a = 1..10; my $b = pop $a; say $b; say $a;
01:47 evalbot_8156 is now known as evalbot_8169
01:47 evalbot_8169 OUTPUT[10 123456789 ] bool::true
01:58 svnbot6 r8170 | pjf++ | General improvement of Win32/Cygwin GHC detection code.
01:58 svnbot6 r8170 | pjf++ | * Makefile.PL::has_ghc_package() now requires a third argument, being
01:58 svnbot6 r8170 | pjf++ |   the 'ghc' command (with path if applicable).
01:58 svnbot6 r8170 | pjf++ | In inc::Module::Install::Pugs:
01:58 svnbot6 r8170 | pjf++ | * assert_ghc now goes looking for GHC on Win32/Cygwin systems.
01:58 svnbot6 r8170 | pjf++ |   This performs lexical sorting of version names, and will bite
01:58 svnbot6 r8170 | pjf++ |   us if part of a GHC version string contains a two-digits.
01:58 svnbot6 r8170 | pjf++ | * assert_ghc_pkg now caches its findings, rather than re-searching
01:58 svnbot6 r8170 | pjf++ |   every time.
01:58 svnbot6 r8170 | pjf++ | * assert_ghc_pkg doesn't trust can_run() on cygwin if we're clearly
01:58 svnbot6 r8170 | pjf++ |   trying to work with a Windows-land program.  See
01:58 svnbot6 r8170 | pjf++ |   https://rt.cpan.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=16375 for details.
01:59 * PJF apologies for svnbot's spam.
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02:15 audreyt PJF: no need to apologize -- there's a reason why we added the trailing ++
02:16 * audreyt grokked the PPI document object model
02:17 audreyt Alias++ # powerful mind-control laser based education
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02:33 azuroth finalizate? heh
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02:49 audreyt Alias_: I committed install_share() support into M::I. (r49)
02:50 Alias_ audreyt++ # M:I
02:51 Alias_ audreyt++ # Having to start karma all over again
02:51 audreyt lol
02:52 azuroth audreyt: did you get a stalker or something..?
02:53 audreyt azuroth: nah :)
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02:59 svnbot6 r8171 | autrijus++ | * Fix PJF++'s GHC probing logic by normalizing the version
02:59 svnbot6 r8171 | autrijus++ |   numbers in directories, so we are fine even when GHC 6.10.999
02:59 svnbot6 r8171 | autrijus++ |   is released.
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03:29 svnbot6 r8172 | azuroth++ | Just a lot of typos, bad spelling and other wrongness.
03:30 azuroth psst. what's the magic incantation to redirect stderr to stdout? 2>&1 ?
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03:36 dduncan ping mugwump
03:36 dduncan seen mugwump
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03:47 stevan_ audreyt: ping
03:51 stevan_ exit
03:51 stevan_ bah
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03:57 dduncan I still have to figure out why, but my last smoke, r8159, took about 6 hours to complete, where normally its about 45 mins ... this is the first time I uploaded a smoke since 2 weeks ago, as there were recently avoided infinite tests during the interim
03:57 dduncan will resync and try another ...
04:05 PJF dduncan: I found a few tests in the smoke would go into infinite loops.  I've tweaked them into flunks.  Previously the infinite loops would run until pugs got tired (a very, very long time) before failing.
04:05 svnbot6 r8173 | autrijus++ | * Transcribe native methods from Perl6::ObjectSpace::Core::*
04:05 svnbot6 r8173 | autrijus++ |   into PIL.Native.Prim.
04:05 audreyt stevan: yo
04:05 audreyt stevan: PIL.Native.Prim should make you happy :)
04:05 audreyt stevan: next step is to build Instance from the minilang
04:06 audreyt I'm already late for catching my plane to sydney -- expect me to check back about 3hrs later from Mad Golfer's place
04:07 dduncan hello
04:07 audreyt dduncan: yo
04:07 audreyt dduncan: indefinite loops is surely the reason
04:07 audreyt dduncan: but if it's even slower than that, that may be because of gaal's Ann work
04:07 PJF audreyt: Thanks for the updates to the install process.  I can sleep well at night knowing that ghc 6.77777777.8 won't break things.
04:07 dduncan I noted that the commit log over the last few days showed an infinite loop resolution, so I tried smoking again today
04:08 audreyt dduncan: do you know where it stuck for a long time in particular or it's just generally slower?
04:08 dduncan even before that happened, I did notice a longstanding odd behaviour
04:08 audreyt I can build an older pugs and benchmark
04:08 dduncan where occasionally a smoke took double the time as usual ... I think that normally happened after a Makefile.PL update or equivalent
04:09 audreyt hmmm
04:09 dduncan as for right now, I would say it was generally slower and couldn't isolate further
04:09 audreyt or maybe the smoke time counter counted the make? iirc it doesn't
04:09 audreyt okay, noted, will do a profile run before release
04:09 audreyt thanks for the reminder
04:09 dduncan I also know from human observation that I started that reported smoke around 2pm this afternoon and it finished around 8pm
04:10 dduncan and it was using the typical 100%ish CPU
04:10 audreyt nodnod. I think it might be the pragma tweak
04:10 dduncan anyway, I'm trying another now in case that was a fluke
04:10 Alias_ Oh for a distribution harness that records wallclock and CPU times...
04:10 Alias_ ;)
04:10 audreyt ok. if it's still slower, we can deal
04:10 dduncan I found that typically the wallclock time was close to the reported time
04:10 audreyt Alias_: well, yeah, ours do... it's just not very portable to other distributions :)
04:11 Alias_ heh
04:11 audreyt see http://smoke.pugscode.org/
04:11 audreyt ok, time to run
04:12 audreyt bbl from sydney &
04:12 dduncan yes, you can see 345 mins there for darwin
04:12 dduncan that's the one
04:13 dduncan the slowdown seemed general, as I manually checked its progress a dozen times, and the increment was fairly consistent
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04:32 dduncan now starting smoke of r8173...
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04:47 meppl gute nacht
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05:33 dduncan status: smoke is now at ext/Tree
05:34 dduncan so this portion has taken a whole hour by itself
05:34 dduncan (portion from start of /ext)
05:36 gaal eep, sorry for the b0rkag
05:36 gaal and good morning
05:37 obra  who maintains the html formats on smoke.pugscode.org?
05:39 gaal Test::TAP::HTMLMatrix. want a committer bit?
05:39 obra heh. I was just going to suggest column headings ;)
05:39 obra I'm insufficiently motivated to hack, though
05:40 gaal you mean in the matrix, or in the summary page?
05:40 obra the summary page
05:40 gaal the summary is in util/smokeserv
05:40 obra the color-coded results are the bit that are hardest to parse
05:41 gaal util/smokeserv/ that is.
05:41 obra (Also, one of my developers is colorblind. he's made it clear to me how much red/green and no other indication sucks ;)
05:43 gaal that's a good point, regarding the matrix though I've no ideas on how to make it better.
05:44 gaal does CSS offer bevelled boxes? maybe we can round off passing tests of something.
05:46 obra http://www.dzinelabs.com/Pages/template_bevel.php
05:48 gaal I meant rounded corners
05:49 gaal was using the wrong word though.
05:49 dduncan smoke now at t/builtins at 1h18m mark
05:51 obra Ah. ok. um. rounded corners.  google openrico
05:53 obra also  http://www.456bereastreet.com/
05:53 gaal I take it the answer about CSS having a roundy box property is "no" :-)
05:54 gaal the html for the matrix is already huge, so I really want to avoid doing Stuff for each cell.
05:54 obra yeah. this is done with .js
05:54 obra so it doesn't mess with your pretty semantic html
05:55 gaal we've avoided js so far... I don't know, have to think about it
05:56 obra sure.
05:56 obra It does degrade nicefully
05:56 obra nicely
05:56 obra Though I totally understand the reluctance
06:00 gaal If ("pigs could fly", "we had parrot in the browser").pick the smokes would stay YAML all the way to the browser, who'd do the rendering itself.
06:01 obra well, you could do that today with JS
06:01 gaal it'd take forever.
06:01 obra in JSON?
06:01 gaal it's already slow to change tests.yml to smoke.html
06:02 obra what's it parsing with?
06:03 gaal YAML.pm - which is slow :(
06:03 gaal perl -MYAML -le '$x = time; $y=YAML::LoadFile("tests.yml");$x-=time; print 0-$x'
06:03 gaal # 14 seconds
06:03 gaal for a > 2.5 mb yaml
06:04 gaal excuse my dirty benchmark :)
06:05 obra heh
06:06 gaal hmm, anyone here know enough ruby to run an equivalent oneliner there?
06:06 gaal i bet syck is much faster.
06:08 gaal hahaha, I was looking for a cheat sheet and of course I got cartools cause this is ruby:
06:08 gaal # http://yaml4r.sourceforge.net/
06:10 gaal (docs in pdf)--
06:12 gaal answer: waaaay faster.
06:13 gaal time ruby -e 'require "yaml"; x = YAML::parse(File.open("tests.yml"))'
06:13 gaal # 2.460u 2.920s 0:05.38 100.0%    0+0k 0+0io 0pf+0w
06:13 gaal note that these 5 seconds included loading ruby and the oneliner too.
06:13 obra isn't there a syck perl binding?
06:13 gaal I have to go to $work, see y'all later
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06:14 gaal Dunno. If there is, we'll want to use it conditionally..
06:14 * gaal vanishes
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06:38 dduncan now smoke just started data_types
06:38 dduncan little over 2h in
06:39 * gaal wonders if the Ann change could have caused the slowdown
06:40 gaal dduncan: could you try smoking 8152?
06:40 gaal also, please make sure you have the Prelude precompiled!
06:40 gaal you can test that w/o breaking off your smoke
06:41 gaal just 'pugs' and see how fast the "Loading Prelude" message is in the interactive env.
06:41 gaal I'm really, really not here now. :)
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07:31 dduncan now smoke is 3 hours in, and we're on t/oo/roles
07:31 dduncan already, this is 4x the amount of time a full smoke usually takes
07:32 dduncan still appears evenly distributed
07:35 obra what made it go slower?
07:35 Alias_ obra++ # Having talked to audreyt, realised again how good a grant admin you were
07:36 Alias_ (certainly compared to the typical level)
07:41 obra heh.
07:41 obra I'm not actually a grant admin so much as a project manager
07:41 obra but thanks :)
07:42 Alias_ Traded grant war stories with audreyt
07:42 obra *nod*
07:42 Alias_ Apparently your promptness and persistance were the key
07:42 obra I try to keep away from the money. That helps a lot too
07:42 Alias_ The expectation that the email will arive to the specific day
07:42 Alias_ And that you can't be ignored
07:43 Alias_ Other stories of irregular emails, and not chasing up if no response
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07:43 Alias_ Do you have a guide for grant managers?
07:44 obra I don't, really.
07:44 obra Again, what I do is project management, not grant management.
07:44 Alias_ A short intro might be useful
07:44 obra And it's a weird variety of project management, since it's all opensource stuff
07:44 obra *nod* I'll add it to the queue
07:44 obra no guarantees on timeliness, though
07:45 Alias_ "Contact them as reliably as possible. And even if it's Larry or Damien don't feel intimidated. They DO have to report to you. Make them"
07:45 Alias_ etc
07:48 obra Most everyone I work with is a volunteer. And they don't have to report to me unless they want to.
07:48 obra But, if they report to each other, they'll get more done and feel more productive
07:49 Alias_ I'm not sure of the specifics on how it needs to be done, but some guidance might be good
07:49 Alias_ To also help new people do it without too much of a hump
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07:50 obra Are you picking up some sort of grant admin role?
07:51 Alias_ hmm?
07:51 Alias_ That might be a conflict of interest :)
07:51 obra Do you have a specific project manager you're looking to have trained?
07:52 Alias_ Nope... just an idea based on scuttlebut by recipients :)
07:53 obra *nod* I've been talking to folks about ways to improve that.
07:53 obra I should talk to whiteg
07:53 Alias_ The blog thing might help, although it's going to perhaps mean a little more politically sensitive language in the reports
07:55 obra if there are reports, that's still better than what's now
07:55 * Alias_ shrugs... again, I'm surprised people take grants and then don't follow through on their commitments
07:58 dduncan 3.5 hours in, now on t/packages
07:59 Alias_ Can you isolate the specific commit that did it?
07:59 dduncan obra, I don't know why it's slower, but it seems to be an element that is common to all the tests
07:59 dduncan I could try
08:00 Alias_ Pick a point half-way between you known points, and then recurse
08:00 dduncan all I know is that this happened after those infinite runtime tests, but not before them
08:00 Alias_ shouldn't take amazingly long
08:00 Alias_ You should be able to tell pretty quick, right?
08:00 Alias_ if any given iteration is slow?
08:00 dduncan it would probably take several hours of testing to figure that out ... not enough time tonight
08:01 dduncan I'd have to exactly time a portion first
08:01 dduncan then I could test with just that to measure it, perhaps 5-10 minutes per version tested
08:01 Alias_ Isn't it almost an order of magnitude?
08:01 dduncan yes ... about 5-10X slower
08:01 Alias_ but yeah, shouldn't take long... you could almost eyeball it
08:02 dduncan either way, not tonight
08:02 Alias_ right
08:02 dduncan actually ...
08:03 dduncan even if I only run part of the smoke, I still have to run 100% of the pugs compile for each version being tested, and that takes a good hour plus
08:03 dduncan at least to start with
08:03 Alias_ (current - previous)log(2) * 1.5 hours...
08:04 Alias_ a while then :)
08:04 dduncan the last time I know it was normal speed is 2 weeks ago ...
08:04 dduncan my last smoke before the infinites
08:04 Alias_ ew
08:04 dduncan the infinites lasted for a week plus ...
08:05 dduncan I wonder if any other smokers showed changes ...
08:05 dduncan looking ...
08:05 dduncan they all seem fast
08:05 dduncan I think the first thing I'll do is a 'make clean' or something
08:07 dduncan meanwhile, I'm killing the current one ...
08:09 whiteg obra: ?
08:09 obra whiteg: about the grant interviews you were thinking about doing back then
08:10 * whiteg is tracking logs
08:11 obra *nod*
08:14 gaal dduncan: make sure you have Prelude precompiled, and please test against 8152.
08:14 dduncan I thought it always did that
08:16 gaal it should, but the immediate result of it not being done is a slowdown.
08:17 gaal pugs -e 'say %*INC'
08:18 gaal if you see fatal <precompiled>, so is Prelude.pm.
08:20 nothingmuch gaal: all my talks were accepted!
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08:23 lumimies Coo
08:23 dduncan okay, I think I reverted to 8152 ... but I can't report the result until tomorrow, given the 1 hour recompile thing ...
08:24 gaal nothingmuch: whee!
08:24 gaal give me ideas for a talk please :(
08:25 nothingmuch what have you been working on lately?
08:26 gaal pragmas? but it looks like mjd and audreyt are doing the hard stuff, I'm just pushing it.
08:26 gaal I know, I'll talk about Analytic and Algebraic Topology of Locally Euclidean Metrization
08:26 gaal of Infinitely Differentiable Riemannian Manifold.
08:35 Alias_ Neat, so you can demonstrate calculation of optimised interplanety vehicle launch windows?
08:35 Alias_ ;)
08:36 Alias_ So, audreyt has finally escaped my clutches
08:36 Alias_ Useful World Domination Planning Sessions: 5
08:36 Alias_ Number of Times forced to put Laptop Away: 3
08:37 Alias_ Number of Shirts Scored: 1 :)
08:38 Alias_ So now I have a pugscode shirt with a "Container Model" on the back I cannot begin to comprehend
08:38 gaal Alias_: google for "This I know from nothing".
08:39 Alias_ on the plus side, there's apparently only 2 of these shirts in the world :)
08:39 gaal Total T-shirt domination progress: 50%
08:40 Alias_ Is it rude to sell a gift on eBay within 24 hours?
08:40 Alias_ :)
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08:42 Alias_ cure poem
08:42 Alias_ cute
08:43 lumimies It's not a poem, it's a Tom Lehrer song
08:43 gaal you should hear him sing it
08:43 * Alias_ nods
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09:48 ingy audreyt: what build system is that?
10:06 audreyt ingy: CPAN::MakeMaker
10:18 audreyt (now Module::Install)
10:18 * audreyt safely arrived to andrews's place
10:22 r0nny has joined #perl6
10:23 r0nny yo
10:27 audreyt yo
10:29 * r0nny screams
10:29 r0nny i want my perl6 code work again
10:30 audreyt it doesn't?
10:30 audreyt I fixed your infinite BUILD bug!
10:30 r0nny still the problem wit the virtually undefined instances
10:32 r0nny btw - is the perl submethod still not aware of cyclic structures ?
10:32 r0nny well - gona try r8173
10:33 audreyt k
10:33 audreyt (working on docs now... bbiab)
10:33 r0nny hf
10:37 nothingmuch audreyt: all my talks were accepted to OSDC
10:37 nothingmuch guess i can't back out now, so see you there ;-)
10:40 audreyt cool
10:42 nothingmuch how was australia?
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10:48 audreyt very productive
10:48 audreyt just braindumping with asavige about how to clean up and reorganize the docs/ tree
10:49 audreyt producing a more navigatable interface aka "perldoc perl"
10:49 audreyt reorganize the totally unhelpful pugscode.org homepage
10:49 audreyt (and equally unhelpful http://dev.perl.org/perl6/)
10:50 audreyt and producing a 02Architecture for Pugs that's not filled with jargons
10:50 audreyt and generally make the huge amount of raw information available in a more digestible manner
10:51 nothingmuch sounds good
10:51 PJF has joined #perl6
10:52 audreyt it does... asavige is expert in taking notes
10:52 PJF Good evening, Audrey.  How's Sydney?
10:52 audreyt and technical writing, apparently, in addition to mad golfing
10:53 audreyt PJF: heh, you just missed my reply to nothingmuch :)
10:53 audreyt http://colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_log/​perl6?date=2005-12-11,Sun&amp;sel=253#l446
10:53 * audreyt praises the log bot
10:53 * PJF goes digging through logs.
10:54 PJF I was a little sad we didn't have Andrew at OSDc.  We should get Sydney.PM to organise a conference. ;)
10:54 audreyt I think the #l446 bit should make it scroll to the exact point
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10:56 audreyt and I just discovered I have two talks to give tomorrow
10:56 * PJF is still waiting for the logs to load...
10:56 audreyt it's this slow? wow
10:56 PJF Oh!  I knew you were giving talks.  It's even up on use.perl.org as an article.
10:57 PJF I suspect it's my browser/proxy. I can wget the page fine.
10:57 audreyt yeah, I noticed. "the bustling metropolis of Lismore"
10:57 PJF Did you get to visit that herb place we were discussing over dinner?
10:57 audreyt no, I did not.
10:59 PJF Logs seem to be working fine now.  And the #|446 not only ends up at the exact point, but highlights it as well.  Very nice.
11:01 audreyt cool :)
11:02 nothingmuch herb places are fun'
11:02 nothingmuch you can get nice spices
11:02 nothingmuch and things like peeled pistachios
11:02 nothingmuch tea
11:03 nothingmuch eye of newt
11:03 audreyt newts have herbs as eyes?
11:05 * audreyt is finishing up PIL.Native.Eval
11:05 svnbot6 r8174 | pjf++ | Ignorant application of pugscode.org/css/perl.css to feather.
11:08 nothingmuch http://www.extremetech.com/ar​ticle2/0,1697,1898267,00.asp
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11:36 Alias_ audreyt: Where was that auto code you showed me before in?
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11:43 PJF Do we know of anything that would cause pugs to stop part-way through a 'make smoke' on 0% cpu, and apparently doing nothing?  Or is my system just a little strange.
11:45 blm PJF: You running under Cygwin?
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11:52 PJF blm: I sure am.
11:52 PJF blm: I'm guessing it's probably some cygwin oddity at the moment.
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11:53 blm PJF: I have ongoing issues with cygwin sh.exe processes just pausing
11:54 blm PJF: When I kill sh.exe the next step of the process continues
11:54 blm PJF:  It is like sh.exe is blocking on something.
11:54 blm PJF: Does that make any sense?
11:54 PJF Hmm...  My process tree looks like bash -> make -> perl -> perl -> pugs
11:55 PJF I don't really want to kill the top-level shell.  If I kill pugs, then that test fails, but the rest continues happily.
11:55 blm PJF: maybe it isn't related then
11:55 PJF Maybe not.  Except that I can run the tests manually and they go through fine.  It's just occasionally a test will hang.  Very frustrating.
11:56 blm Yes.  I can imagine
11:56 PJF I'm not planning to look into it deeply at the moment.  I just wanted to ping the channel to see if there were any known problems.
11:57 blm I don't know.  I am just starting to get into pugs myself.  I just thought it may have been the same problem I am having with cygwin
11:57 audreyt Alias_: AutoLoader.pm line 46
11:57 audreyt PJF: no, nothing of this sort that I know of. which test was the last run?
11:58 Alias_ ta
11:58 PJF t/builtins/perl2.t was the last one that hung.
11:58 Alias_ PJF-- # Puzzle Pirates... nuff said
11:58 * PJF laughs.  You're not playing PP, are you?
11:58 Alias_ And coding at the same time
11:58 Alias_ The only downside of three monitors
11:59 PJF Alias: Let me know when you have a moment, and I can give you a crew invite if you like.  I only play while waiting for tests to complete.
11:59 audreyt PJF: can't duplicate here. try killing the running sh.exe or cygwin
12:00 PJF audreyt: I can just kill pugs and it continues to run happily.  I plan to tweak the smoke tester so that I can run tests verbosely and see exactly where it stops.
12:00 PJF If there's a pattern to it, I'd like to know it.
12:01 Alias_ PJF: OK... I think I accidentally joined another crew :/
12:01 PJF Alias: Moving crews is pretty easy.  You can join the Python/Twisted crew if you want. ;)
12:05 svnbot6 r8175 | juerd++ | Further xhtmlify
12:06 audreyt the new evaluator is here... will try to finish bootstrapping metamodel tomorrow
12:06 svnbot6 r8176 | autrijus++ | * Shiny new PIL.Native.Eval.  "make pil" now starts to evaluate
12:06 svnbot6 r8176 | autrijus++ |   the minilanguage according to Stevan's specs.
12:06 svnbot6 r8176 | autrijus++ |   (See src/PIL/Native/Prims.hs for the still-growing primitive table)  
12:07 audreyt stevan++ # exceedingly concise implementation to follow
12:07 audreyt I should probably sleep now. good night folks :) *wave*
12:07 PJF Night Audrey.  Sleep well.
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12:30 PJF Night everyone.  Time for me to get some sleep.
12:30 PJF has left
12:32 rafl audreyt: What explains the recent renaming?
12:34 audreyt rafl: It's part of my transgender process. I'll journal about it.
12:35 audreyt (hmm, I was supposed to sleep but worked on M::I and PAR release engineering instead)
12:35 rafl audreyt: Allright.
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12:53 Alias_ hmm... ok, so the dist dir is where now?
12:53 Alias_ actually, that should be easy to find myself
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13:36 gaal any new info about the recent slowdown?
13:36 gaal (popping in during a break from $work)
13:52 blm Where do I find out what the abbreviations are like PMC and imcc mean?
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14:08 Juerd_ blm: The pugs wiki
14:09 blm Juerd_: Thanks
14:09 Juerd_ blm: http://pugs.kwiki.org/?Perl6Nomenclature
14:11 blm Juerd_: Gotchya. Looking at it now. Thanks
14:13 Juerd_ blm: yw
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14:45 bbwwicci anyone around?
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14:54 r0nny bbwwicci: yeah
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14:55 r0nny bbwwicci: but usually they got better uses of their time, then answering the frequent anyone around questions
14:57 bbwwicci oh
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18:11 r0nny audreyt: howz the issue with the virtually undefined instances ?
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18:36 stevan_ audreyt: if you want help with the mini-lang metamodel just ask, I should be able to spare some cycles this week
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18:46 * Juerd_ wonders if there's more of a transformation than the nick change.
18:46 rafl ingy: ping
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18:48 gaal Juerd_: yes, she started working at microsoft. http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile​/A2HONNCE6M02GC/002-3673786-2640846
18:48 Juerd_ That's scary.
18:50 gaal yes, and amazon use pdps, as you can see from the url.
18:50 gaal okay I think that's enough discordianism from me for tonight :-)
18:52 rafl Juerd_: Hello. Got some money from your client already?
18:55 Juerd_ rafl: No. Sent 2nd reminder.
18:55 Juerd_ rafl: But have reserved some money I found for CCC
18:56 rafl Juerd_: You *find* money?
18:56 Juerd_ Quite literally.
18:56 Juerd_ Under a computer, in my office.
18:56 Juerd_ I considered it stolen for over a year.
18:57 rafl D'OH..
18:57 Juerd_ More or less exactly what I thought, yea
18:58 rafl Why did you put it there at all?
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19:00 Juerd_ I didn't even know I put it there
19:01 Juerd_ So I have no idea
19:01 Juerd_ It probably got there by accident
19:05 Juerd_ In any case, throwing away an old computer has never before been so profitful :)
19:05 rafl :-D
19:05 Juerd_ Now let's hope EUR 300 suffices
19:06 r0nny ew - i never knew audreyt was female
19:06 Juerd_ r0nny: Neither did I :)
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19:06 Juerd_ I still don't
19:06 r0nny ?
19:08 r0nny Juerd_: plz clarify context
19:08 Juerd_ I don't think I can :)
19:08 r0nny wth ?
19:09 r0nny darn - dont play sick games with a sleepy mind
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19:21 Juerd_ r0nny: I could say the same to you
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19:26 r0nny Juerd_: so u are way to sleepy, too ?
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19:31 Juerd_ Yea
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20:04 leo ping gaal
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20:05 Albie gaal, alive?
20:06 leo or anybody else who knows about Test::TAP::HTMLMatrix
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20:23 stevan_ audreyt: please read perl5/Perl6-ObjectSpace/docs/Meta-User-Bridge.pod and comment when you have some time :)
20:25 svnbot6 r8177 | stevan++ | Perl6::ObjectSpace
20:25 svnbot6 r8177 | stevan++ | - Added document describing the object-space <-> user-space bridge
20:25 svnbot6 r8177 | stevan++ |   idea which I have been contemplating/babbling about for about a
20:25 svnbot6 r8177 | stevan++ |   month now. I hope this makes the idea more clear. Questions,
20:25 svnbot6 r8177 | stevan++ |   comments, suggestions are all welcome :)
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20:45 sproingie oops
20:45 gaal hi, what's up?
20:45 * sproingie bangs on that / key a little harder
20:46 sproingie nada.  just catching up after a while
20:46 gaal pong for <leo Albie>
20:47 leo hi gaal
20:47 gaal hi there!
20:47 leo we got some questions about make smoke and Test::TAP::HTMLMatrix
20:48 leo we that is #parrot
20:48 gaal irc.perl.org right?
20:48 leo specifically how to include some visible feedback about 'make smoke' progress
20:48 leo irc.pobox.com
20:50 gaal hm, is there another server on that network? I'm not connecting.
20:50 leo blizzard.com iirc
20:51 leo wrong
20:51 leo irc.rhizomatic.net
20:51 leo sorry
20:51 gaal it works from feather :)
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21:09 gaal nothingmuch: hi. can you join #parrot @ irc.pobox.com please?
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21:26 svnbot6 r8178 | fglock++ | * misc/Parser-Mini/pil2_json_emit_pir.p6 - PIR code emitter
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21:54 audreyt g'morning
21:54 * audreyt goes reading the meta-user bridge
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22:20 stevan_ audreyt: hey
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22:31 sri_ audreyt: ping
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23:50 dduncan gaal, a smoke of 8152 shows it to be performing at normal/fast speed ... at least until it hangs on ext/Span/t/span.t
23:51 dduncan will update to 8153 to see if that changes something
23:53 dduncan er ...
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23:56 dduncan actually, I think it was 8151 that I just tested and found ok
23:57 dduncan next I will try r8158, which given my setup is effectively the next version

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