Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-12-12

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:18 svnbot6 r8179 | autrijus++ | * fixed threaded-ghc detection in Makefile.PL.
00:24 svnbot6 r8180 | autrijus++ | * During "make install", the build system will still warn for
00:24 svnbot6 r8180 | autrijus++ |   "make register" even if Cabal has already registered for the user.
00:24 svnbot6 r8180 | autrijus++ | * If the user has a local perl directory but is not root (and hence
00:24 svnbot6 r8180 | autrijus++ |   cannot write to the global GHC package configuration file), do not
00:24 svnbot6 r8180 | autrijus++ |   attempt to register as it will trigger an obscure error.
00:24 svnbot6 r8180 | autrijus++ |   (Both reported by Andrew Savige.)
00:29 dduncan r8158 has a 'make' failure when compiling Pugs.Run, citing Pugs/PreludePC.hs
00:29 dduncan trying later version ...
00:31 dduncan now trying r8172
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00:37 audreyt hm, the Perldoc-Kwid and YAML-Syck situation is really bad.
00:38 audreyt ingy: will you have slices of time to fix either of them, or should I give it a go, or do you know other interested parties?
00:38 audreyt (for p5)
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00:44 stevan audreyt: ping
00:45 * stevan curses his shody IRC client
00:45 audreyt stevan: yo
00:45 audreyt stevan: the bridge makes sense.
00:45 stevan audreyt: cool
00:45 audreyt stevan: I think I need an ObjSpace minilang as well
00:45 audreyt Pugs.MM.Parser
00:45 stevan what is the first mini-lang for?
00:45 audreyt that has additional forms tailored to OO, such as "class {}"
00:46 audreyt the first one is just core native types.
00:46 audreyt the second minilang subsumes the first
00:46 stevan to describe them? or to use them?
00:46 audreyt and desugars to the first
00:46 audreyt to use them
00:46 audreyt they are the moral equiv to your s-exp
00:46 stevan ok
00:46 audreyt and the second MM lang will have signature forms
00:46 stevan so a mini-lang on top of a mini-lang :)
00:46 audreyt for which we'd need first-class types
00:47 stevan ok
00:47 audreyt so I'll go back and add it as a native type
00:47 stevan cool
00:47 stevan I was mostly envisioning the module-signature type as being a hash of (Str -> Method)
00:47 audreyt PickAxe has two pages (or was it threE)
00:47 sproingie has left "Leaving"
00:48 audreyt that lists the builtin types and methods
00:48 audreyt I think we need that as well
00:48 stevan ok
00:48 stevan isn't that S29 actually?
00:48 audreyt it turns out asavige has written an entire book about Data/C++
00:49 audreyt no, S29 needs to be reformed into just a list of default imports
00:49 audreyt that's more like S30
00:49 audreyt and each class would need its own manpage
00:49 stevan ok
00:49 audreyt so "perldoc Int" would behave sensibly
00:49 stevan If we can get @larry to add doc strings to the language we can autogenerate it all :)
00:50 stevan so wont the second mini-language essentially be a minimal Perl 6?
00:51 * stevan is envisioning a PASM & PIR type relationship between the two mini-languages
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00:51 stevan is that what you are thinking?
00:51 audreyt stevan: yes, I think it will grow to be PIL2
00:51 audreyt yes.
00:51 stevan ok
00:51 audreyt but we may need more forms to get dependent types etc
00:51 audreyt but that's not for this milestone
00:51 stevan ok
00:51 audreyt it's a dynamic language in this milestone (with types as assertions)
00:54 stevan audreyt: so is the mini-lang documented anywhere?
00:54 stevan in other words,.. can I mess around with it?
00:54 audreyt stevan: if you would like, please sprinkle haddocs around the source
00:55 audreyt just write in {-| ... -} blocks
00:55 stevan ok
00:55 audreyt the relevant haskell source is PIL.Native.Types line 41
00:56 audreyt the parser forms are all in P.N.Parser
00:56 audreyt pretty forms are in P.N.Pretty
00:56 audreyt you can experiement with "make pil"
00:56 audreyt between those three I hope you'd be able to figure out the syntax forms
00:56 audreyt and document it a bit -- feel free to muck around as well
00:56 audreyt I'll do the same for bootstrap itself in PIL.MM.Types
00:56 audreyt PIL.MM.Parser and PIL.MM.Pretty
00:57 audreyt exactly like you envisioned
00:57 stevan ok
00:57 stevan excellent :)
00:57 audreyt stevan++ # excellent visionary for this coding monkey
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00:58 * stevan blushes
00:58 audreyt *smile*
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01:01 dduncan 8172 has same failure ... returning to HEAD and trying a make realclean
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01:05 dduncan now building 8180 following a make realclean
01:06 svnbot6 r8181 | autrijus++ | * More build system tweaks:
01:06 svnbot6 r8181 | autrijus++ |     - Don't let the user continue if "Setup" cannot be built
01:06 svnbot6 r8181 | autrijus++ |       (usually indicated a broken Cabal install)
01:06 svnbot6 r8181 | autrijus++ |     - Prompt the user to install as root if it looks like
01:06 svnbot6 r8181 | autrijus++ |       $Config{sitelib} is not writable.
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01:10 clkao audreyt: 1.06 works alright?
01:10 stevan audreyt: I think I grok the mini-lang now
01:10 audreyt stevan: wow, like, in 10 minutes
01:10 stevan are "nil" and "true" literals?
01:10 audreyt clkao: it does, but provides: is broken
01:10 audreyt stevan: yes, and false
01:10 stevan Parsec is very readable :)
01:11 audreyt I mean yes, and "false"
01:11 audreyt stevan: yeah, isn't it :)
01:11 audreyt actually I left out "false"
01:11 audreyt please add it in
01:11 audreyt that will be your first haskell commit :)
01:11 stevan I still have trouble following actual Haskell code,.. but I can grok the "spirit" of the code
01:11 stevan :)
01:12 stevan I will add some Haddock too so that its more than a single line commit ;)
01:13 oylenshpeegul has left
01:13 audreyt stevan: cool :)
01:13 audreyt rafl: my intention is to schedule 6.2.11 with next parrot
01:14 audreyt like, one or two days after next parrot
01:14 rafl audreyt: Great, thanks.
01:14 audreyt if we did get bootstrap hooked at that time (which is possible but don't count on it), we'll call it 6.28.0
01:14 audreyt but one way or another there will be a release that works with the parrot-with-nonbroken-lexical-pads
01:14 clkao audreyt so it's not indexed properly?
01:14 audreyt (we can't target this current parrot)
01:14 audreyt clkao: "provides" was typoed as "procides" in META.yml
01:15 audreyt clkao: I am deeply sorry (already fixed in M::I)
01:15 audreyt (M::I 0.41)
01:15 clkao oh !*(#@&$
01:16 audreyt yesterday I warned you in #svk... probably missed it
01:16 clkao can you ask konig to do proper manual index for me (or you can do so?)
01:16 audreyt you can release 1.07 and just rant against me in the changelog and rel announcement. you have been known to do so.
01:17 obra actually, you can do reindex by hand now
01:17 stevan audreyt: are closures represented as p6-ish pointy blocks?
01:17 obra and version re-indexing
01:18 clkao no, i don't want to release 1.07
01:18 audreyt stevan: yes. better syntax welcome
01:18 audreyt obra: oh really. how?
01:18 clkao i've only done that ranting about myself
01:18 obra audreyt: hang on
01:18 stevan audreyt: nah, I like pointy blocks :)
01:18 clkao konig did manual index for me before provides: is ever actually in use
01:19 audreyt clkao: you did that for 0.25.
01:19 obra    https://pause.perl.org/pause/au​thenquery?ACTION=reset_version
01:19 clkao XD
01:20 stevan audreyt: how do I call a constructor? ::bit.new() ?
01:20 clkao right i shall get some sleep
01:21 audreyt stevan: you can only write literals
01:21 audreyt stevan: they are their own constructor
01:21 stevan ?
01:22 stevan I dont understand
01:22 audreyt barewords are constructors
01:22 audreyt no other forms yet
01:22 stevan ah
01:22 stevan so true or false
01:22 audreyt yup
01:22 stevan nice
01:22 audreyt which is a problem with composites
01:22 audreyt [1.add(2)] is currently illegal
01:23 audreyt as is [$v]
01:23 audreyt to support them though will need either new forms
01:23 stevan hm
01:23 audreyt or explicit .new method
01:23 audreyt and I'm not sure we really need them yet
01:23 audreyt as it can be done with [].append(1.add(2))
01:23 audreyt but we'll see.
01:23 stevan ok
01:23 audreyt maybe the parser should just desugar this to that.
01:24 audreyt feel free to implement it :) I'm going to give two talks 30 minutes from now
01:24 stevan no need for sugar at this point
01:24 * stevan doubts he will implement any Haskell tonight :)
01:24 stevan comments I can do
01:24 Juerd_ Good night everyone
01:24 stevan night Juerd_
01:25 audreyt stevan: fix the "false" too
01:25 audreyt bbiab
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01:47 stevan audreyt: is there any form of assignment? Can I "name" things?
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01:55 audreyt going to UNSW for the talk
01:55 stevan ok
01:55 stevan I will keep digging
01:55 audreyt stevan: assignment is on the MM level since it works with containers
01:55 stevan ok
01:55 audreyt you can name things by saying
01:55 audreyt (->$x{...}).call(3)
01:55 audreyt which names $x to 3
01:55 audreyt we can have a "let" form as sugar as well
01:55 audreyt if you want
01:55 stevan oh I see
01:55 stevan ok
01:56 audreyt I need to run now
01:56 stevan no,.. thats cool for now
01:56 stevan enjoy
01:56 stevan audreyt++
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02:05 MacVince how do I get Perl 6 on my PC?  Either with darcs or svn, the command's not on pugscode.org from what I can see.
02:05 stevan MacVince: svn co http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/
02:05 MacVince Thanks
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02:18 dduncan so the head compiled fine
02:18 dduncan trying a smoke ...
02:18 dduncan on another matter ...
02:18 obra 'evening
02:19 dduncan I hear from 1-2 hours ago that there is a plan to release a 6.2.11, following the next parrot release
02:19 dduncan I assume that parrot would be 0.4.1 ... do you know when that is?
02:19 stevan dduncan: or 6.28.0 if we can get the metamodel bootstrapped
02:19 obra dduncan: parrot releases are monthly
02:20 tewk_ dduncan: yep, I would guess end of the month
02:20 dduncan I suppose in 3 weeks then
02:20 dduncan then I'll try to have my database stuff in some working form by then
02:20 dduncan I'm even putting aside another project and working on it today
02:21 dduncan so at 6:18 local I started a smoke of a cleanish-built r8180
02:22 dduncan after 4 mins, its at ext/File-Spec ... it may be too soon to tell, but the speed problem may have been a phantom and may be gone now
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02:36 dduncan 18 mins in, now on ext/URI
02:40 dduncan now at 6:40, on t/builtins/io
02:40 dduncan performance seems normal
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02:59 stevan audreyt: I am getting errors about ghcconfig.h not being there when I try "make pil"
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03:13 dduncan I was away from comp, but the smoke is now done
03:13 dduncan so it completed in under an hour
03:14 dduncan seems back to normal to me
03:14 dduncan I suspect the problem may have been a dirty build on my system, and not anything that was checked in ...
03:14 dduncan or if it was a bad checkin, that was fixed in the last 10 revisions
03:15 dduncan now uploading the smoke result
03:18 dduncan done
03:18 dduncan the official "repository snapshot / darwin" is now 51 minutes, much better than that 345 minutes yesterdayish
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05:17 Alias_ seen audreyt?
05:17 * Alias_ misses not having purl
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05:25 gaal morning
05:25 Alias_ afternoon
05:25 gaal dduncan: so I take it it wasn't 8153 that caused the slowdown? whew :-) but I still wonder what it coulda been.
05:26 gaal hey Alias_
05:26 dduncan hello
05:26 gaal dduncan++; # thanks very very much for tracking this
05:26 dduncan gaal, I never tracked it down per se
05:27 dduncan I can guess that either the problem was on my machine, or it just came and went ... the former is more likely
05:28 gaal dduncan: at least we know that refactoring Exp wasn't responsible. it would have sucked if it were, because it'd mean forward maintainership would be hurt
05:28 dduncan one thing that I did notice is that the current version getting code doesn't work properly when one checks out an older revision and has a local repository ... while the files are rolled back, the current version reported by pugs is the latest revision ever committed
05:28 dduncan I think
05:29 dduncan one clue that the problem was just my machine is that the linux smokes seemed to be fast as ever, as reported
05:29 gaal you mean, svn co -r XX some/file ; make ; ./pugs -v says YY?
05:29 dduncan um ...
05:29 dduncan not sure
05:29 gaal that makes sense, if some/file isn't responsible for versions :)
05:30 dduncan but its a minor matter even if I did see a problem, since it doesn't affect the newest version by definition
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05:33 gaal doesn't look like a problem to me, becuase I can't envision any sort of solution that makes sense. ./pugs -v  => "all files are rX except for some/file and that/other/file which are rY, and oh, /that/one/there is rZ
05:33 gaal nobody would ever look at versions anymore :-)
05:34 gaal in a project that was massively forked maybe that could be useful though
05:34 dduncan so nothing needs to be done
05:34 dduncan with this matter
05:35 gaal I think I've seen c projects that take care to have symbols populated from CVS so that every file had this stamp. If you need that level of versioning, ok I guess, but I'd rather not need it!
05:37 gaal (you know, you can't really stop there either. say I co rX, then hack on file f1 but don't check it in yet. f1 will report version X, but of course it isn't a pristine X any more. This actually *is* an issue for smoke tests, where careless hackers (*whistle*) forget to remove some experimental code they'd left in somewhere, run and submit a smoke, and in fact some of its results are bogus.)
05:38 * gaal has been guilty of that one :/
05:39 Alias_ CVS-based versioning is bad
05:39 gaal whatever, i'm not advocating that
05:40 Alias_ It makes it almost impossible to have someone else work on the code in their own repository
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06:07 Alias_ ack... feature that audreyt was supposed to implement in M:I isn't... :/
06:10 Alias_ aaaahhh... it got implemented, but apparently not added to the Manifest
06:25 svnbot6 r8182 | Darren_Duncan++ |  r1246@Darren-Duncans-Computer:  darrenduncan | 2005-12-11 22:22:00 -0800
06:25 svnbot6 r8182 | Darren_Duncan++ |  /ext/Rosetta-Incubator : updated SQL/Routine.pm to add new (empty) classes ::Document and ::Node, updated Rosetta.pm to add ::Interface, ::Interface::fubar (a placeholder), ::Engine; in both files, added a template INTERFACE pod and expanded the VERSION pod
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07:04 svnbot6 r8183 | Darren_Duncan++ |  r1252@Darren-Duncans-Computer:  darrenduncan | 2005-12-11 23:03:25 -0800
07:04 svnbot6 r8183 | Darren_Duncan++ |  /ext/Rosetta-Incubator : minor README update; the pre-rewrite Rosetta svn depot has moved
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07:06 dduncan g'night folks
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08:51 ingy rafl: pong
08:52 ingy rafl: msg me
08:52 ingy audreyt: will I have slices of time to fix either of who?
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08:55 ingy audreyt: I may have slices of time if you feed me slices of cake...
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08:56 xinming where to get the irc log message for this channel please?
08:57 Alias_ She'll be busy until 2-3 hours
08:57 Alias_ Giving a talk at Sydney.pm tonight...
08:57 blm ?
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09:00 xinming hmm, I mean the log bot
09:01 Alias_ google?
09:02 Alias_ in fact, the pugs website has a link
09:02 xinming No, I can't get the channel log through the link provided in www.pugscode.org
09:02 Alias_ http://colabti.de/irclogger/ircl​ogger_log/perl6?date=2005-12-12
09:02 xinming thanks
09:02 Alias_ That's where the link takes me...
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09:06 xinming the redirect procedure seems to be a problem here, ISP is broken. :-/
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10:22 PJF Ahoy there, m'hearties!  Is it reasonably for me to alter the pugs makefile to also remove 'tempfile.*.*' and 'temp-test.*.*-out' as part of a 'make clean'?
10:22 PJF Given their names I presume they are temporary, and hence prime candidates for sweeping during a clean operation.
10:24 PJF Good.  I was hoping nobody would object. ;)
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10:27 svnbot6 r8184 | pjf++ | Remove temp-test.*.*-out and tempfile.*.* during make clean
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10:35 Alias_ GODDAM FUCKING PUZZLE PIRATES
10:38 PJF Arrr?
10:38 PJF Everything okay, Alias?
10:45 Alias_ WASTING TIME
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10:49 blm I must try this puzzle pirates :-)
10:49 PJF I'm not sure if it was a good idea showing it to Alias...
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10:55 blm PJF: Dont we need distractions now and then
10:55 blm PJF: ?
10:56 PJF Oh aye.  Although Puzzle Pirates can be very distracting. ;)
10:56 PJF www.puzzlepirates.com
10:56 PJF We're on the Sage ocean.  Alias here is "Peucebeard", and all the Python/Twisted people hang out in crew "The Squishy Few".
10:57 blm :-)
10:57 blm Cool
11:22 blm No luck
11:22 PJF No luck?
11:22 blm Firewall problems
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11:23 PJF Arr....
11:23 blm Shiver me timbers!
11:23 blm I need a good name
11:24 PJF Pugsbeard. ;)
11:24 blm Firewall has been beaten :-)
11:25 blm danke :-)
11:25 PJF That didn't take you long.
11:25 PJF If it's your first login, you may wish to exit off the character creation screen, and pick "Sage" as your ocean on the login screen.
11:25 PJF Otherwise you won't have the joy of beating Alias at swordfighting for hours on end. ;)
11:26 blm So just hit cancel without creating a pirate?
11:26 PJF Yup!
11:27 PJF It picks a random ocean (aka server) when you first start, for load balancing reasons.
11:27 blm Already on Sage :-)
11:27 PJF Good good.
11:33 Alias_ NO!
11:33 Alias_ Don't do it!
11:34 Alias_ Having fully evaluated the wonder and hilarity that is Puzzle Pirates, I have decided I must allow it to dominate my life, of vanquish it, and send it to the briney bottom
11:34 Alias_ I have chosen the latter
11:34 PJF Most wise.
11:34 kane-xs_ pff... chicken ;)
11:34 Alias_ AR!
11:34 Alias_ So now I'll just have to stick to CPAN the Gathering
11:35 * PJF laughs.
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11:39 Alias_ IT IS DONE
11:39 blm Need more pirate sayings :-)
11:39 Alias_ Now I can be the only person to say I have "Defeated" Puzzle Pirates
11:40 PJF http://www.talklikeapirate.com/howto.html
11:41 gaal PJF: Arr! It's obvious you are on windows because those are cleaned automatically on other platrorms
11:41 gaal but PJF++ nonetheless!
11:42 gaal (I used to be on Midnight for a while, but haven't logged in in a while)
11:42 blm I know a few people I can make completely ineffective with Puzzle Pirates ;-)
11:42 * PJF laughs
11:42 gaal haha
11:43 * Alias_ waves
11:43 Alias_ nobody shows audreyt
11:43 Alias_ :)
11:43 blm Yes that could be bad :-)
11:43 PJF Aye, I agree there.  Audrey should definitely be kept away.
11:43 Alias_ She's apparently only barely recovered from the Nethack addiction
11:45 Alias_ grr... I really dislike that XML::SAX::Writer->new doesn't return a XML::SAX::Writer object
11:45 Alias_ But then the SAX toolkit of modules is amazing enough I'm willing to overlook it
11:45 PJF Nethack was glorious.  I spent a goodly amount of my student life playing that game.
11:45 Alias_ Team Fortress for me
11:46 Alias_ in retrospect, I'm glad my addiction was a multiplayer game
11:46 Alias_ Because no single player game can hold me for more than a few days now
11:47 Alias_ Becoming a programmer also helps, because your disgust at the crappy AI translates into innoculation
11:47 PJF I loved team fortress, but my P90 and 36.6k modem didn't.
11:47 wolverian subspace!
11:47 Alias_ Did I mention I administered the residential college LAN? So I had 100meg ethernet to fibre in my bedroom
11:48 Alias_ Which has kind of innoculated me from getting shitty about low connection speeds :)
11:48 blm Alias_: hmmph spoilt on campus students ;-)
11:48 Alias_ Since nothing I will ever have will compare to it
11:49 blm I used to work at a games place with 20 computers that the public could rent time on to play netgames
11:50 blm It innoculated me from spending too much time playing multiplayer games on the net as Broadband < LAN
11:50 Alias_ yeah... still, CPAN the Gathering is the ultimate game
11:51 blm I haven't got that game yet :-)
11:51 * PJF taps Alias and cats Summon Acme::Everything.
11:51 masak has joined #perl6
11:51 Alias_ Fortunately, I don't even know what that means
11:52 Alias_ I only lived with game players, I managed to resist their smelly ways
11:52 PJF Well, avoid the cardboard crack as well. ;)
11:52 Alias_ But some culture leached into my skin
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12:06 gaal audreyt: bug report re: http://search.cpan.org/~autrijus​/Acme-emcA-0.04/lib/Acme/emcA.pm
12:06 gaal "This document describes version 0.04 of Acme::ComeFrom, released November 8, 2002."
12:07 * Alias_ snickers... bug reports for Acme modulkes
12:07 Alias_ Just submit it to RT
12:09 audreyt gaal: fixed
12:09 svnbot6 r8185 | autrijus++ | * convenience function "eval" for work in the "make pili" interactive shell.
12:10 Alias_ ah, you're back
12:10 audreyt skud++ # volunteering to help the p6doc/pugsdoc effort
12:10 Alias_ audreyt: You forgot to add M:I:Share to the dist
12:10 Alias_ Or at least, it didn't make it to the version that went to CPAN
12:12 Skud has joined #perl6
12:12 PJF Evening Skud!
12:12 Skud evening
12:13 Skud fancy seeing you here
12:13 gaal rehi all
12:14 gaal bug reports for Acme modules are very important! :) we must bring silliness to perfection.
12:14 Skud audreyt: got your invitation, thanks.  doing the necessary now.
12:14 PJF Funny that.  ;)  We seem to keep bumping into each other. ;)
12:14 audreyt Skud: yo! :)
12:15 Skud pjf: was just thinking of you today, actually, as i updated my resume and tried to figure out what to say about the training notes
12:15 Alias_ gaal: Perfect Chaos? Is that even a concept?
12:18 gaal It's an imperative!
12:18 PJF Skud: I think you should say very good things about the training notes. ;)  Is my memory correct that you were looking at working at a nice non-IT centered place, like a museum?
12:19 gaal like "time flies when you're having fun".
12:19 Alias_ You are leaving IT during the Great Perl Drought?
12:20 kane-xs_ who's actually droughting right now?
12:20 audreyt gaal: won NAPC no si 01.0 Acme::emcA 0.10 is on CPAN now :laag
12:21 gaal audreyt: תודה רבה
12:21 audreyt :)
12:22 gaal hahahaaa! irssi screws up the timestamp for that line
12:22 Alias_ kane-xs_: It's not quite 2000 all over again, but it's heading that way
12:22 Skud pjf: yes, my ideal job would be to do the sort of stuff i'm doing (LAMP plus kinda broader ranging generalist stuff) in a museum setting.
12:22 Alias_ ooohhh... still coding, but somewhere nicer :)
12:22 Skud pjf: there's a good looking opening at hte national library of australia that i'm going to apply for.
12:23 kane-xs_ alias: jobs.perl seems rather slow for that in .eu at least
12:23 kane-xs_ in general, not many perl'ers asked for here
12:23 * gaal would love to live in the kind of city that had a full time job for a museum techie who did LAMP stuff.
12:23 Skud gaal: well, this is library information systems
12:23 Skud and it's the australian equivalent of the LoC
12:23 gaal ah!
12:23 Alias_ Wouldn't the National Library mean Canberra?...
12:23 joepurl has joined #perl6
12:24 Skud alias: yes, it would.  but i survived ottawa, which is like canberra only less pretty and 30 degrees colder.
12:24 Alias_ hahahah, right, forgot about that
12:24 gaal 30 degrees in what scale?
12:24 svnbot6 r8186 | autrijus++ | * PIL.Native: introduce the idea of slurpy primitives (primX) --
12:24 svnbot6 r8186 | autrijus++ |   [].push(1,1.add(1)) for example.  Was going to desugar [1, 1.add(1)]
12:24 svnbot6 r8186 | autrijus++ |   into that form, but then was distracted to give four talks in a row.
12:24 PJF Skud: Sounds fantastic.  Good luck with the application.
12:24 jiing has joined #perl6
12:24 Skud i mean, canberra's not my idea of a great place to live, but it's an OKish place, and i've had a stint of "real city" so i'm kind of refreshed and ready to face the vicissitudes of whatever my career demands next.
12:24 fglock has joined #perl6
12:24 Skud thanks pjg
12:24 Alias_ Skud: Sure
12:24 Skud pjf even
12:25 Skud alias: also, sydney is too humid for my tastes :)
12:25 Alias_ Compared to Melbourne?
12:25 PJF What confuses me with Canberra is it's so seasonal.  I have to keep checking if parliment is going to be in season before travelling there.
12:25 svnbot6 r8187 | autrijus++ | * add the missing "false" literal to PIL.Native.Parser
12:25 svnbot6 r8187 | autrijus++ |   as it seems Stevan didn't get around to that yet :)
12:27 PJF And Canberra is filled with people who can't tell me what they do for a job, except that it must involve Perl.
12:27 audreyt Skud: feel free to poke around docs/* and try to make sense of it -- asavige and I will try to type out the doc tree reorg braindump tomorrow and post it into the tree
12:27 Skud pjf: why does parliament affect you?
12:27 Skud audrey: i'm probably not even going to do a checkout for a few days yet, i'm afraid.
12:27 audreyt but my brain's fried after giving five talks today, and so I'll have to sleep and check back tomorrow :)
12:27 audreyt Skud: oh, cool, that's fine
12:28 Alias_ audreyt: Can you release M:I 0.43 before you go?
12:28 Skud life's kind of crazy right now. too much bloody seasonal crap, plus i'm kind of braindead with hayfever at this time of year.
12:28 Alias_ Just make sure ::Share is in the dist this time, otherwise no change
12:28 PJF Skud: Parliament means more expensive airfares and accomodation.  So if we're going to organise training courses in Canberra, we try to do it in the "off season".
12:28 Skud oh, right.
12:28 Skud i never did training in canberra
12:28 Skud mostly did melb/syd with the odd jaunt elsewhere mostly for corporate stuff
12:29 audreyt Alias_: k
12:29 Alias_ thans
12:29 Alias_ thanks
12:29 Skud pjf: this is the job ad: http://www.nla.gov.au/jobs/1707aps5-6.html
12:29 PJF Skud: We were surprised at how popular Canberra has been.  A few departments are jumping into Perl in a big way.
12:29 Alias_ audreyt++ # Still catching up
12:29 Alias_ PJF: Unlike in the corporate world, government has to be more accountable on costs
12:29 audreyt Alias_: also author_from form is in
12:29 audreyt and all_from will use it
12:29 Alias_ ok
12:29 Skud audreyt: mind you, i may well check it out at work instead/as well ... i'm moving desks and will be closer under my boss's eye, but perl looks like work ;)
12:29 audreyt also if you've explicit set stuff before, all_from won't try to guess those
12:30 audreyt Skud: cool :D
12:30 PJF Skud: Nice that Duty #1 mentions open source explicitly.
12:30 Skud pjf: yes. it's all OSS by the looks of it.  looks like lots of glue and XML.
12:30 PJF And Duty #3 is to hang out with Audrey.
12:30 Skud yes!
12:30 Alias_ PJF: Also, my spies tell me that the anti-microsoft rubmlings in government grow louder, so I imagine when you start moving more things to linux, there's a rise in Getting Stuff Done work involved in that
12:31 Alias_ audreyt: An explicit after all_from will overwrite though?
12:31 audreyt Alias_: sure
12:31 Alias_ ok, just double checking
12:32 audreyt Alias_: but you'd more likely to put stuff for all_from fails to guess
12:32 PJF Alias: Canberra is still around 50/50 between training on Windows and *nix.  If anything the percentage of training on Windows has been increasing rapidly.  I think that's because Perl is becoming much more popular, rather than *nix becoming less popular.
12:32 audreyt so still makes sense for all_from not overwrite
12:32 Alias_ Oh, and I want 10 minutes at some point to resolve a clash between module-level and dist-level share
12:32 Alias_ But no hurry there
12:32 PJF Skud: The mention of FOSS throughout the position sounds very nice.  Good luck with the application, it looks like a great job.
12:32 audreyt ok... tomorrow at earliest... I can't think right now
12:33 Alias_ sure sure
12:33 audreyt Alias_: 0.43 is on CPAN
12:33 Alias_ My code works, so I can wait weeks
12:33 Skud what's the url for RSS of a use.perl journal?
12:33 Skud never mind.  *views source*
12:34 PJF Skud: There's also http://use.perl.org/~skud/journal/friends/rss to get a feed of all of your friends.
12:34 Skud pjf: hrm.
12:34 PJF Replace 'skud' with a different login if you want to get a feed off someone else's friends.
12:34 Skud i should probably do that. but i mostly read my friends list via LJ.
12:35 Skud pjf: do you blog regularly anywhere?
12:35 PJF I found that my journal had snuck onto LJ at the other day.
12:35 Skud i read a few use.perl journals via lj
12:35 Alias_ You can do that?
12:35 Skud yes.  http://livejournal.com/syn/
12:35 PJF Skud: http://pjf.id.au/blog or http://use.perl.org/~pjf/journal or http://advogato.net/person/pjf or http://www.livejournal.com/users/paul_fenwick/
12:35 Skud add syndicated feeds to LJ, and then you can friend them like a person or a community
12:36 Skud pjf: which do you post to regularly?
12:36 Alias_ oh, you need a lj login
12:36 Skud alias: *nod*
12:36 gaal i can add syns to lj
12:36 PJF Skud: They're all the same.  I post to pjf.id.au and it pushes it out to everything else.
12:36 Skud ok. i'll friend your lj then. costs me less syn points :)
12:37 gaal note that if you do, it's a good idea to use _rss or _feed suffix, so that if the person opens a real lj some time later their name is still available.
12:37 Skud or if you're syndicating from use.perl do something like foo_useperl
12:37 gaal oh, but i see http://www.livejournal.com/users/paul_fenwick/ already exists.
12:37 PJF Gaal: I have enthusiastic friends.
12:38 PJF Gaal: I don't mind.  I was wondering how to push it out to LJ for a while.  ;)
12:39 Skud pjf: did you ever have one of those vi reference mugs back in teh day?
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12:39 PJF Skud: Unfortunately not, although I had a friend who did.  They're one of the big reasons we decided to make regular expression mugs.
12:40 PJF Skud: I should put a photograph of them online.  They've been pretty popular so far.  Audrey's got a few, if I recall correctly.
12:40 Skud are you giving them away as promotional wossnames?
12:41 PJF Skud: We certainly are.  Everyone at OSDc received a mug.  We're handing out a few to regular clients, and the rest will probably go to user group meetings.
12:41 Skud PJF: well, put one aside for me?
12:42 PJF Skud: Gladly!  If you're going to be at LCA I can even deliver it to you in Dunedin (spel?).
12:42 Skud nope
12:42 Skud i have no budget for travel at hte moment
12:42 Skud alas
12:42 Skud tell you what i do have, though... i have new perfume that smells of pencil shavings!
12:43 PJF Skud: Pencil Shavings?  You're going for smart-smelling perfumes?  Perhaps one that smells like solder?
12:44 Skud hee! yes, in fact!
12:44 Skud one of my other favourites from this mob is called "brimstone" and it's kind of ashy and metallic
12:44 PJF You have one that smells like solder?
12:45 * PJF laughs!
12:45 PJF That's fantastic!
12:45 Skud they're from Black Phoenix Alchemy Labs, who make these essential oil blends that are kind of notorious for interacting oddly with people's body chemistry
12:45 Skud the brimstone one smells like beetroot on my best friend
12:45 PJF That's not altogether bad.  Beetroot is a wonderful vegetable.
12:45 Skud smells awful on marna though
12:46 PJF Do I know Marna?
12:46 Skud on me... smells like a cross between a campfire and iron filings
12:46 Skud doubt it. she lives in ottawa.
12:46 Skud the pencil shavings one is called "lear" and contains white cedar, bay, and sage.
12:47 PJF Sounds like good stuff.  You've got me thinking of other "smart smells" now.
12:47 Skud i've got one called "lightning" that i haven't tried yet
12:47 Skud it's meant to be ozoney, but it smells like cheap disinfectant in the sample bottle
12:48 PJF Skud: From what you've said, it could smell like just about anything once you wear it.
12:48 Skud mind you, with BPAL that could be a good thing
12:48 Skud yeah
12:49 PJF Do I dare ask who/what BPAL is?  Or should I wikipedia for it?
12:49 Skud black phoenix alchemy labs
12:49 PJF Ah!
12:49 Skud http://www.blackphoenixalchemylab.com/
12:50 PJF Goodness me, that's quite a navigation menu.
12:50 Skud they have this system where you can order 6 sample bottles for a fairly small price, and then everyone kind of shares and swaps them.  there's a whole market in bpal samples.
12:50 Skud yeah, it's a bit of a PITA to navigate.  the search is handy.
12:50 Skud i started by searching for "masculine" scents, since anything floral or fruity smells like puke on me
12:50 PJF Now I really should be getting to sleep, before I start investigating perfumes that smell like freshly washed neoprene...
12:51 Skud heee!
12:51 Skud and yes, it's past my bedtime too.  i suck at this whole early-to-bed-early-to-rise thing.
12:51 PJF Actually, Alias probably had to put up with that smell last week.  I hope he didn't mind too much.
12:51 Alias_ with what now?
12:51 Skud the smell of pjf's new latex fetish outfit
12:51 PJF Alias: You were in the room in which we normally store our scuba equipment.
12:52 Alias_ ooohh...
12:52 Alias_ Didn't notice a thing
12:52 Alias_ Except I kept wondering if the homebrew bottles were going to explode in the night
12:52 PJF Good!  The fan was a worthwhile investment then.
12:52 Skud death by homebrew!
12:52 Skud ok, bedtime.
12:52 Skud gnite, folks
12:52 PJF Not the ones in your room.  We had a few explosions from ones in the laundry during your stay.
12:52 PJF Night Skud!
12:52 PJF Great catching up with you again.
12:53 PJF And yes, past my bedtime too.
12:53 PJF Night all.  Happy documenting!
12:53 audreyt g'nite PJF, Skud
12:53 PJF has left
12:53 * audreyt waves &
12:57 Alias_ night
12:57 blm Goodnight
12:59 fglock audreyt: is the new mini language going to replace PIL2?
13:01 rafl fglock: He said something like that yesterday evening, yes.
13:03 meppl guten morgen
13:03 svnbot6 r8188 | fglock++ | * set svn properties
13:03 kane-xs_ hi rafl
13:03 kane-xs_ i seem to have a fubared svk checkout currently.. waiting for clkao to come back to help me sort it
13:05 rafl Hello kane-xs_
13:05 rafl Why not simply make a new checkout? :-)
13:06 kane-xs_ because i have a /lot/ of changes in that checkout.. some commited and not pushed
13:06 rafl kane-xs_: Sorry that I can't hack on JIB currently. I'm quite busy with setting up an MMTA.
13:06 rafl Oh, OK.
13:06 kane-xs_ and i dont want allt hat history to go away in one big diff
13:06 kane-xs_ rafl: that's ok.. we're on no timeline here ;)
13:06 Alias_ Can I ask why "jib"?
13:06 kane-xs_ no
13:07 rafl kane-xs_: Just wanted to inform you.
13:07 rafl Alias_: jib is brilliant.
13:07 Alias_ rafl: Not the funtionality, the actual three letters
13:07 Alias_ I can't find a decryption of it
13:07 * kane-xs_ hands alias GNU
13:07 * Alias_ blinks
13:08 rafl :-(
13:08 kane-xs_ Gnu's not unix
13:08 Alias_ JIB isn't...
13:08 rafl Err, :-)
13:08 Alias_ Broken?
13:08 kane-xs_ <rafl> Alias_: jib is brilliant.
13:08 Alias_ ooohh
13:08 * Alias_ smacks head
13:08 kane-xs_ ucfirst()
13:08 Alias_ *handsfaceheaddesk*
13:09 audreyt fglock: no... the minilang is just for the basic runtime. The next layer of PIL.MM.* will probably evolve into PIL2 though
13:09 * kane-xs_ helps
13:09 audreyt fglock: there is currently no difference with PIL1 and PIL2 in src/Pugs/*
13:09 audreyt fglock: PIL.* is my way of approximating the PIL2 design from the object space
13:09 audreyt fglock: so what you are working with now is essentially still PIL1
13:10 audreyt you can run a diff to see it
13:10 audreyt sorry if I did not make it clear... I will try to document it tomorrow after I wake up
13:10 fglock audreyt: I'm experimenting with a 'PIL API'
13:10 audreyt I've seen the mini parser work
13:10 fglock in order to ease generating code using p6 itself
13:10 audreyt oh?
13:10 audreyt yeah, it's cool
13:11 Alias_ Don't forget the SAX driver...
13:11 audreyt I'll give it a more thorough look tomorrow and try to coordinate
13:11 Alias_ YOUR LANGUAGE WILL BE XMLIFIED!
13:11 Alias_ Assembly Markup Language
13:11 Alias_ ASSML
13:12 audreyt but I shall not procrastinate on sleeping anymore :) &
13:13 fglock Alias_: I've only read about SAX, but I didn't try to use it
13:13 Alias_ Ever used POE?
13:13 Alias_ Or Twisted in Python
13:13 Alias_ Or Haskell :)
13:13 fglock no
13:14 Alias_ Similar... great idea, but you have to turn you brain sideways
13:14 Alias_ On the other hand, it makes doing quite sophisticated XML stuff pretty easy
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13:17 fglock btw, I was thinking about emitting Python code - but I'll have to learn a little of Python first
13:18 geoffb *yawn*
13:18 geoffb Morning, all
13:19 geoffb Haven't been keeping up for like a month ... what's new in pugstown?
13:23 geoffb Wow, don't everyone talk at once.  :-)
13:24 fglock geoffb: sorry, I was trying to find out how to explain these things
13:24 geoffb ?
13:25 fglock the current work is on making pugs capable to emit enough info to the runtime to build classes, roles, etc
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13:26 geoffb fglock, OK, go on ... sounds like PIL2 actually in progress?
13:26 fglock yes, but it is being rethinked into a new mini-language
13:27 fglock following stavan's work with the metamodel
13:27 fglock stevan's
13:27 geoffb interesting
13:27 geoffb Last I heard, stevan had been playing around with doing the MM in S-expressions.  Is that what happened?
13:28 fglock yes, it is actually still happening
13:29 fglock audreyt and stevan are implementing and documenting it
13:29 geoffb audreyt is a new nick to me ... new alias for autrijus?  Or different person?
13:29 Alias_ ...
13:30 Alias_ same person, different gender
13:30 Alias_ Autrijus is now Audrey
13:30 geoffb I was wondering how that would turn out.  Happier now, I hope?
13:30 Alias_ It's been a week... I guess we'll find out later
13:30 geoffb Fair enough.
13:31 geoffb (Good luck, Audrey!)
13:32 geoffb Odd thought -- did he change his handle at use.perl.org as well?
13:32 fglock I'm playing with the idea of implementing parts of pugs in p6
13:32 Alias_ fglock: Isn't that what Alison et al is doing?
13:32 geoffb damn English pronouns
13:32 Alias_ Like, the actual creation of Perl 6...
13:37 fglock Alias_: not exactly - I'm just playing with moving the implementation of some modules to p6, and then make p6/haskell call each other to finish the job
13:37 geoffb fglock, cool
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14:07 fglock audreyt: it would be cool if the mini-language would be valid perl 6, like "featherweight perl"
14:08 fglock then we could just execute it using an older pugs
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14:37 Alias_ ugh... writing PITA is a PITA :)
14:37 Alias_ XML is great and all, but gets tiresome to code
14:38 * Alias_ takes a break and moves onto other works
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14:41 stevan_ fglock: I think the new mini-lang is actually close to a featherweight perl6
14:41 stevan_ at least from what I can grok out of PIL.* sources
14:42 stevan_ audreyt: I added "false" but never managed to get "make pili" to work (problems with ghcconfig.h) so I didnt commit
14:52 fglock stevan: cool - emitting code from a featherweight p6 using pugs would be fun
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14:54 fglock of course Haskell can do that easily, but pushing the limits of pugs is nice
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16:10 tewk_ stevan_: I had the same problem and had to add include paths to the Makefile for ghcconfig.h and EXTERN.h
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16:18 svnbot6 r8189 | fglock++ | * misc/Parser-Mini/pil2_json_emit_io.p6 - a simple emitter for the "IO" language;
16:18 svnbot6 r8189 | fglock++ |   only 'say 1+1' works
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18:00 Andy pugs: http://www.livejournal.com/u​sers/substitute/1165155.html
18:01 gaal too true!
18:03 gaal can a pad have a scope!? data Exp .... | Pad !Scope !Pad !Exp
18:04 stevan_ gaal: a Pad is scope..... isnt it?
18:04 gaal Pad is the binding structure
18:04 gaal ah, I think I get it:
18:04 gaal there are pads for Mys, pads for States, etc.
18:05 gaal Pad is just a map
18:06 stevan_ with a pointer to the previous (OUTER::) pad
18:06 stevan_ I always saw it as a linked list, where the Map was node value
18:06 gaal I hope I got this right. Anyway this means each scope actually has several Pad strcutres associated with it
18:06 stevan_ eak
18:06 stevan_ why?
18:07 gaal the SMy (S for Scope) pad, the SState pad, etc.
18:07 stevan_ Andy: nice Pugs :) .. my friends have a similar pair
18:07 * stevan_ is not familiar enough with the workings of "state" to really comment
18:07 gaal data Scope = SState | SLet | STemp | SMy etc.
18:07 stevan_ is now known as stevan
18:07 gaal hello stevan!
18:08 stevan hello gaal
18:08 gaal I was just telling stevan_ about pads
18:08 * stevan is trying to convience his wife to let him to the Hackathon::IL
18:08 gaal whoooah!
18:08 stevan gaal: dont talk to that asshole stevan_,.. he is nothing but trouble
18:09 gaal Hey stevan's wife! We'll treat him well, promise!
18:09 stevan :)
18:11 gaal eeeeek! I just noticed Scope types derive Ord, and that fact is actualy used. How funky!
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18:24 gaal whee, mpj has a picture of Crater Lake in his homepage
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19:12 svnbot6 r8190 | fglock++ | * misc/Parser-Mini/pil2_json_emit_php.p6
19:23 Ovid has joined #perl6
19:23 stevan fglock: emit PHP!!!
19:23 stevan hullo Ovid
19:24 Ovid Hi Stevan.
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19:32 svnbot6 r8191 | fglock++ | * Parser-Mini/pil2_json_emit_php.p6 - more ops
19:33 fglock stevan: :)
19:34 * stevan is experimenting with Seaside (smalltalk++)
19:34 stevan fglock: so Forth, P6, P5, PHP... now what :)
19:35 Cryptic_K has quit IRC (Client Quit)
19:35 fglock I'm lacking ideas - maybe 6502
19:35 fglock I loved Apple ][ assembler
19:36 stevan :D
19:36 stevan did you already do PIR?
19:36 fglock yes
19:36 stevan maybe Ruby
19:36 fglock ah, ok - and Python
19:37 obra fglock: scheme?
19:37 stevan FORTRAN!
19:37 obra fglock: VB?
19:37 stevan PIL->COBOL would be useful :P
19:37 fglock hey, I'll need some help
19:38 fglock :)
19:38 stevan you should build a Lego Robot which writes the PIL to punch cards :)
19:39 * fglock looks on google for what language Lego Robots use
19:40 stevan you can write them in FORTH
19:40 stevan pbforth
19:40 stevan there is also a C dialect for them
19:40 stevan and Ada
19:40 stevan p6->Ada then we can control missles with P6 :)
19:47 tewk_ make pili gives this error /tmp/ghc16716.hc:9:22: fpstring.h: No such file or directory
19:48 dada has quit IRC ("-... -.-- .")
19:48 tewk_ I found fpstring.h in src/cbits, and added -isrc/cbits to the ghc cmdline, but couldn't get it to work.  Ideas?
19:52 * fglock goes read about Ada
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19:55 fglock http://archive.adaic.com/p​ol-hist/history/holwg-93/
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20:04 stevan fglock: they have links to the other Ada design docs on Lambda the Ultimate too : http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/view/3
20:10 fglock stevan: how about PEARL - http://www.irt.uni-hannover​.de/pearl/pearlein-gb.html :)
20:13 fglock thanks for the link
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21:01 * eric256 hates to admint that sudoku is addictive ;)
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21:49 r0nny yo
21:50 r0nny audreyt: ping ? howz the undefined instance prob ?
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21:56 stevan r0nny: I think audreyt is concentrating on the object-space which will eventually give us the metamodel which will solve most (if not all) of your OO issues
21:57 stevan the current object model in Pugs is incomplete and will be deprecated once the metamodel is in place
21:57 r0nny stevan: atm my problem is, they do it in the normal branch, and this broke my code since some objects are virtually undefined now
21:58 stevan r0nny: I understand that, but what I am saying is that with a little patience, you will have all you need :)
21:58 stevan s/have/get/
21:59 r0nny hmm
21:59 stevan remember, pugs is -Ofun, which means sometimes things won't work right
21:59 r0nny yeah
21:59 r0nny i wish i knew the revision number i need to make it work again
21:59 stevan especially when audreyt is basically re-writing the guts with the object-space work
22:00 stevan r0nny: is your code in Pugs?
22:00 stevan the code which is not working currently
22:00 r0nny no
22:00 r0nny atm its external
22:00 r0nny its a depency solving system
22:00 stevan ok, I was thinking maybe you could track down the revision that way
22:01 r0nny maybe date-based
22:01 xah has joined #perl6
22:01 stevan openfoundry has a nice interface to SVN, you can browse backwards through the commit logs
22:01 stevan that might help in your search
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22:02 r0nny but first i need to check, if there is a way to enter the wanted revision sonewhere in my pkg manager wich installs pugs from svn for me
22:03 stevan I have no idea,.. I dont use a pkg manager , I pull direct from svn :)
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23:21 trym where can I read about the status of perl6 ?
23:21 trym ive browsed through the urls in the topic, not finding exactly what Im looking for
23:22 mlh pugscode.org perhaps
23:22 integral dev.perl.org/perl6/ perhaps?
23:22 _Vutral has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:22 trym pugs is a implementation of the perl6 implementation?
23:22 trym is it official ?
23:22 mlh yes
23:23 audreyt greetings
23:23 audreyt trym: yes, we are fixing the state of the documentation
23:23 mlh audreyt: thanks for the talk last night -- it was great
23:23 integral not official, surely?
23:23 audreyt want a committer bit to our subversion repository so you can help? :)
23:23 mlh trym: also see http://planetsix.perl-foundation.org/
23:23 trym just roughly.. when do you think perl6 will be ready to be used in production ?
23:24 mlh heh, i'm not sure you want me.  then again i might be able to do docs
23:24 audreyt integral: pugs is officially a perl6 implementation... not sure if s/a/the/, but "a" certainly
23:24 audreyt mlh: that is currently one of the most dire focus :)
23:24 integral ah!  I didn't quite realise that either
23:24 obra It is "a", not "the"
23:25 obra There is currently no "compliance test" for perl6 implementations.
23:25 audreyt unless it is the pugs tests ;)
23:25 obra It's not ;P
23:25 eric256 has left
23:25 obra Also, there is no 100% specification for Perl 6.0.0 yet
23:26 xah has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
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23:26 audreyt trym: we are targetting productively use of pugs as a dynamic language targetting both parrot and perl5 on next february-march.
23:26 obra but now, I must run
23:26 trym won't several perl6 implementations become confusing?
23:26 obra trym: no more so than C, Java or Python
23:26 audreyt trym: not anymore than several python, C++ or Java implementations
23:26 trym point taken
23:26 obra *5* audreyt
23:26 audreyt *5*
23:26 obra It'll actually help make sure we've got an ironclad spec
23:27 trym just very used to relating to only one... _the perl_
23:27 joepurl has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:28 mlh audreyt: ok, [email@hidden.address] key if you want it is on major keyservers :-)
23:28 Andy audreyt: Do you have a URL somewhere that explains the name change?  I want to let people know, but also anticipate the immediate followup question.
23:29 audreyt mlh: welcome aboard!
23:29 q[Skud] morning.
23:29 audreyt Andy: I'll post it as a journal entry some time today or tomorrow.
23:29 Andy audreyt: OK, thanks.
23:30 mlh audreyt: thakns
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23:30 audreyt trym: interested in trying out pugs and maybe helping out tests/documentations/examples/code? I'd send you a committer bit if you would let me know your email address :)
23:30 lisppaste3 has joined #perl6
23:31 trym sent by notice
23:31 trym my spam filter has its hands full as it is ;)
23:31 audreyt welcome aboard :)
23:32 trym hehe thanks :)
23:32 audreyt mlh, trym: be sure to add yourself to the AUTHORS file; that will ensure that the svn commit works
23:32 trym do you guys need hosting of some sort?
23:32 trym Im in the process of setting up a hosting center
23:33 mlh k
23:33 trym i already have a few boxes here and there.. but Ill have much more resources to myself as the center comes up
23:34 audreyt trym: oh cool - interested in running a smoke test server?
23:34 audreyt see util/smoke_loop.sh on the pugs subversion tree for how
23:35 trym probably :) that should be a box that is not in production I guess ? ;)
23:35 audreyt or if you can run user mode linux or some sort of jail/chroot/acl
23:35 gaal hi there :)
23:35 audreyt gaal: yo
23:36 gaal I was looking earlier tonight at how pads were created
23:37 gaal didn't understand it very well yet; but I did see the responsibility was partly in Eval
23:37 pd has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:38 audreyt gaal: *nod*
23:38 gaal how do these "pad transformations" work?
23:39 gaal eg in enterWhile
23:39 audreyt very carefully
23:39 gaal enterLex [symLast, symNext] action
23:39 gaal who are symLast and symNext anyway?
23:39 audreyt look at how enterLex is defined
23:40 audreyt it takes a list of (Pad -> Pad)
23:40 audreyt and apply them in turn to envLexical
23:40 gaal yes, so they are such funcitons
23:40 trym so smoke_loop.sh is sort of an error detection system.. for it to be useful, where should the results be reported?
23:40 gaal elsewhere I see genSymPrim "&next", but I don't see how that connects
23:41 gaal trym: there's a util/smokeserv that posts results
23:41 audreyt trym: it should be uploaded... actually we should throw that into the loop
23:41 gaal well, a client under that dir that posts them
23:41 trym well you have the aftercmd thingie
23:41 gaal trym: that's deprecated, actually
23:42 trym maybe I wasnt looking at the newest revision
23:42 gaal you were, likely... the code you're looking at hasn't been hacked on in a while (I think)
23:43 gaal err, did I say "elsewhere"? the line above, doh.
23:43 trym oh well time for bed I guess.. :)
23:43 trym sleep tight
23:44 gaal night
23:45 audreyt trym: I fixed it :)
23:45 svnbot6 r8192 | autrijus++ | * turn AFTER_CMD into uploading the smoke report to server
23:45 svnbot6 r8192 | autrijus++ |   in the default util/smoke_loop.sh run. reported by: trym
23:45 gaal hmm, is fix a callCC thing?
23:45 audreyt trym: good night
23:45 audreyt gaal: fix is just the Y combinator
23:45 gaal fix :: (a -> a) -> a
23:46 gaal I need to remelt my brain to remember what that is
23:47 audreyt fact = fix (\f x -> case x of { 0 -> 1; _ -> x * f (x-1) })
23:47 gaal oh, cool!
23:47 gaal unlambda, in a way?
23:47 audreyt it's inventing a recursive name out of thin air
23:47 audreyt yeah
23:48 gaal ok so taking a simple one:
23:49 gaal enterGiven topic action = do { sym <- genSym "$_" topic ; enterLex [sym] action }
23:49 gaal genSym gives a transformer that adds a symbol to a pad, yes?
23:49 audreyt yes.
23:49 gaal ooh, there's even a comment saying just that :)
23:50 audreyt :D
23:51 gaal so pads are populated during reduction, hence, in Eval
23:51 gaal reduceSyn "given" eventually calls enterGiven
23:52 gaal how does a pad know its outer pad? 'asks'?
23:52 audreyt yup.
23:52 audreyt yes. in any given time you can get the current lexical pad:
23:52 audreyt pad <- asks envLexical
23:52 Juerd_ Yet another day gone by without having done anything productive. Blah
23:52 Juerd_ Good night.
23:52 audreyt or the outer pad:
23:52 audreyt outer <- asks envOuter
23:52 audreyt which may be Nothing
23:52 gaal on top level
23:52 Juerd_ Oh, and for the record: I absolutely profoundly hate MS Windows.
23:52 audreyt Juerd_: good night, sleep well :)
23:53 Juerd_ audreyt: Thanks
23:53 gaal findVarRef has a good demo, ok
23:53 Andy has quit IRC ("Leaving")
23:53 gaal Juerd_: nighty night :)
23:53 stevan audreyt: hey!
23:53 Juerd_ gaal: ty
23:53 Juerd_ afk
23:54 gaal so, what's needed for lexical import? some note in the ast that, when reduced, gens a symbol;
23:54 jiing has joined #perl6
23:54 * stevan has to run, but will be back in 1 hour
23:54 audreyt stevan: cool
23:54 gaal also, errors if the symbol already exists, yes?
23:54 audreyt gaal: yes and yes.
23:56 audreyt gaal: I'd imagine that the note is just a normal Pad node
23:56 gaal on the parser end, ignoring the concrete syntax for a moment, the work is similar to ruleVarDeclaration
23:56 gaal ?
23:57 audreyt I mean, a Sym node
23:57 audreyt ys.
23:57 Qiang has joined #perl6
23:58 q[Skud] gah. moving desks *again*.
23:58 gaal hmmm, so there aren't big obstacles to doing this, are there? :)

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