Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-12-17

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Time Nick Message
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00:08 dduncan ?eval "hello"~0
00:08 evalbot_8274 "hello0"
00:08 dduncan mlh_, I think that's what you wanted?
00:09 dduncan a + casts its operands as numbers, while a ~ casts as strings
00:14 mlh_ oh
00:15 mlh_ does eval do p6 only or p5?
00:15 mlh_ is it possible to force it to give a typeerror for "hello" + 0   ?
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00:34 ntgrl is now known as integral
00:34 dduncan ?eval does perl 6 only, I believe
00:34 evalbot_8274 Error:  unexpected "o" expecting operator, ":", ",", term postfix, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
00:35 dduncan but perl 5's + always cast its arguments as numbers too, so that's the same as the perl 6 one
00:35 dduncan the only difference is that perl 6 uses ~ instead of . for string concatenation, but they both cast as strings
00:35 obra seen audreyt
00:36 dduncan the + has never been a string op in perl
00:36 dduncan maybe you're thinking of some badly designed languages like javascript where you never know what you're going to get if you say "foo + bar"
00:37 dduncan eg, in javascript "'5' + '4'" is 54, and "5 + 4" is 9
00:37 dduncan nasty piece of work, that
00:51 dduncan ?eval 'hello' + 'world';
00:51 evalbot_8274 0.0
00:51 dduncan ?eval 'hello' ~ 'world';
00:51 evalbot_8274 "helloworld"
00:51 dduncan ?eval 'hello' ~ '';
00:51 evalbot_8274 "hello"
00:51 dduncan ?eval 'hello' ~ undef;
00:51 evalbot_8274 "hello"
00:58 gaal arr! I can't seem to extract values from a VList without calls to fromVal and the like!
01:01 gaal I *know* this VList is really [Exp], but how do I convince the type checker this is the case?
01:02 gaal patmaching doesn't work: (VList bindings)
01:02 gaal and neither does tricksy annotation: bindings :: [Exp]
01:03 gaal tomorrow then... night &
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02:10 audreyt gaal: VList can't contain [Exp]... Exp is not a Val
02:10 audreyt gaal: you can fake it with VOpaque
02:10 audreyt gaal: if you show me the code/patch I can fix
02:11 audreyt lunch now... bbiab
02:11 obra 'morning, audreyt
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02:12 audreyt yo obra.
02:12 stevan hey audreyt
02:12 audreyt stevan: hey
02:13 stevan Bootstrap.pil :)
02:13 audreyt yes? :)
02:13 stevan just puts a smile on my face,.. thats all
02:13 stevan I am about to commit some additions to it
02:13 audreyt ahh :)
02:13 audreyt cool
02:13 audreyt maybe you can practice some haskell by writing linearize? :D
02:14 stevan I have been reading Algorithms
02:14 audreyt (it's a pretty good first cut for haskell practicing)
02:14 stevan we shall see :)
02:14 audreyt cool
02:14 audreyt my duct-tape-held-together laptop case is about to break
02:14 audreyt so I need to go out repairing it + lunch... will be back in 2~3hr
02:18 stevan I am off to watch a movie myself,..
02:18 svnbot6 r8275 | stevan++ | PIL.Native.Bootstrap.pil
02:18 svnbot6 r8275 | stevan++ | - implemented ::Class.subclasses & ::Class.add_subclasses
02:18 svnbot6 r8275 | stevan++ | - cleaned up ::Module.version & ::Module.authority
02:18 svnbot6 r8275 | stevan++ | - ::Module.identifier now works properly (although some edge cases
02:18 svnbot6 r8275 | stevan++ |   will likely still mess it up).
02:18 svnbot6 r8275 | stevan++ | - Create slots in instances of ::Class, ::Object, ::Module & ::Package
02:18 svnbot6 r8275 | stevan++ |   which are missing (no auto-vivification in the mini-lang :)
02:18 * stevan &
02:19 dduncan message away ... to p6l that is
02:20 dduncan second topic started in almost as many days
02:20 audreyt cool :)
02:20 dduncan hopefully something will get done about those nasty undefs!
02:24 dduncan is that PIL stuff not supposed to be used yet?
02:24 dduncan I notice that, despite being in src/, make doesn't do anything with them
02:25 audreyt dduncan: "make pil" does
02:25 dduncan I refer to the last few commits
02:25 dduncan okay
02:25 audreyt and the goal is to treat it as a vm like "parrot"
02:25 audreyt and compile "pugs" programs to it
02:25 audreyt to get roles and metaclasses and unboxed types working
02:25 audreyt the current haskell runtime can't quite support these things
02:25 audreyt so we are rearchitecting the bottomost layer
02:25 dduncan I mistakenly thought that 'make' did all the versions, and it was at test time that you picked one to invoke
02:26 audreyt that is correct
02:26 audreyt once the pil native vm can hook into the current pil compiler
02:26 audreyt we will make that so
02:26 dduncan okay
02:26 audreyt it's currently still not there yet -- missing container types
02:26 SamB yay for rearchitecturing bottommost layers!
02:26 audreyt yay for modularity-thru-separate-data-​representation-across-layers!
02:27 audreyt yay for OSI!
02:27 audreyt (ok, maybe that's too silly)
02:30 SamB OSI isn't written in Haskell, silly
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02:31 audreyt I hear galois (or someone else) had the data layer and up written in haskell for provability
02:32 SamB provability of what?
02:32 audreyt system properties
02:32 * SamB thought the OSI was written in hot air
02:32 SamB what does it do?
02:32 audreyt http://en.wikipedia.org/wi​ki/Internet_protocol_suite
02:32 SamB is it useful?
02:33 SamB I thought it was just used to compare real things with
02:33 audreyt as a Sockets/TCP/IP/Ethernet layer... I imagine they may be useful for things they are useful for
02:33 audreyt er, right. in the proper sense it's just hot air
02:34 SamB wow... hot air written in Haskell...
02:34 audreyt considering the use of category theory, maybe it's not that surprising...
02:35 audreyt (but I was confused; I referred to specific implementations of protocols in different layers as a stack in haskell, i.e. actual code that does stuff)
02:35 SamB whatever you do, don't tell those guys in #twisted about this!
02:35 audreyt mm, category theory is known as "generalized abstract nonsense"
02:35 SamB ah
02:35 SamB hehe
02:35 audreyt considerably hotter than hot air
02:36 SamB hmm, is that anything like Dr. Suess?
02:36 SamB I probably misspelled his name...
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02:38 SamB heh: Physical e.g. wire, radio, fiber optic, Carrier pigeon
02:38 SamB hehe... avian carriers...
02:43 SamB hmm, they don't mention HTCPCP
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02:45 SamB do winsock and BSD sockets really belong at the same layer as SSH?
02:45 SamB neither winsock nor BSD sockets is a protocol...
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03:01 meppl gute nacht
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07:33 xinming what's wrong with freenode? Is it being attack? or under maintaince? :-/
07:33 xinming I can't get here since yesterday. :-(
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07:38 luqui http://freenode.net/news.shtml
07:43 audreyt yo
07:43 xinming nuisancebot
07:43 xinming what does this mean?
07:43 xinming the nuisancebot
07:44 luqui spambot
07:44 audreyt bots that causes people annoyance?
07:44 xinming the bot that sexy advertisers use which seduces people :-)
07:46 audreyt mm sexy advertisers
07:46 xinming I ever remembered that there always private message which send you the url to the adult site. So I say sexy advertiser. :-P
07:47 audreyt *nod*
07:47 * luqui ponders lazy construction of the match object
07:47 luqui does that buy us anything...
07:48 avar xinming: did you get my message about pugs fibonacci the other day?
07:49 xinming avar: yes, You killed it after 500m. :-)
07:49 avar hoh;)
07:49 audreyt luqui: it buys us something if we don't use all of he match objs
07:49 xinming I just watch back the log, and only see that line.
07:49 avar .java with GCJ is just as fast as .c with GCC for that probram, suprising
07:49 audreyt luqui: which could be useful for normal text match patterns -- kinda like XML::Twig
07:50 audreyt pugs fibbonacci? god forbid anyone benchmarking the current core
07:50 audreyt it's using linked lists of 4-byte-per-characters for strings and BigInts for math
07:50 luqui audreyt, how hard is it to implement automatic tailcall in the current core?
07:51 luqui if "fairly easy" is the answer, can you point me in the right direction?
07:51 audreyt luqui: huh, we already do that on pil compilation.
07:51 luqui oh, pil
07:51 audreyt luqui: oh, you mean the parse tree evaluator
07:51 luqui is pil fairly full-featured?
07:51 audreyt sure, seeing how js runs 90% of tests
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07:51 luqui is that the canonical pil evaluator these days?
07:51 audreyt but it's lacking proper support for OO metamodel
07:51 audreyt yes, it is, until the minilang hooks into pil2
07:52 audreyt even afterwards I think js will remain first tier
07:52 luqui okay, I'll try testing with that
07:52 audreyt it's just so very valuable :)
07:52 luqui it gives an interesting political angle to perl 6 for sure
07:53 audreyt you mean, PR angle :)
07:53 luqui uh, yeah
07:53 luqui politics, public relations, anything that's not code, it's all the same
07:54 audreyt ...unless it's solid documentation, which is something else
07:54 luqui true
07:55 audreyt luqui: so, do you grok PGE's design?
07:55 audreyt both the OPTable parser and the matching engine
07:55 audreyt not the code, but the algorithms
07:55 xinming audreyt: Will you plan to make pugs support compiling into haskell and run top of parrot? :-P
07:55 luqui audreyt, oh yeah, I grokked those before pm wrote them
07:55 audreyt xinming: we already do (./pugs -CPugs) and we already do. (./pugs -CParrot)
07:56 xinming audreyt: How about compile haskell to parrot? :-/
07:56 audreyt luqui: can you write them down as either p6 pseudocode or hs pseudocode -- preferably as annotations to pge but also okay as  a standalone -- so we can merge 6.28 with 6.281?
07:56 audreyt xinming: I think the JHC person is the one to talk to
07:56 audreyt JohnMeacham
07:56 luqui why is that a precondition to merging 6.28 with 6.281?
07:56 audreyt just need a PIR emitter for the JHC grin code
07:57 audreyt luqui: because it's fuzzy to me how the rule engine is to work with the underlying metamodel
07:57 audreyt luqui: you know, the "rules are methods and grammars are classes and matching is multi/role/whatever" stuff
07:57 luqui ahh, that stuff
07:57 audreyt as we are doing metamodeling, it makes sense to give PGE match objects first class status
07:57 audreyt it's curretly just a crude pesudohash in Pugs
07:58 audreyt where you can deref with [] and {} but not much else
07:58 luqui okay, I'll look through the PGE source to find out the details and write them up
07:58 audreyt eg. it's impossible to implement your own match method or extend the match class
07:58 audreyt luqui: excellent, that will really really help -- not so much as a p6 port of PGE but rather the API of such a thing if it is to exist
07:58 audreyt we can still bridge to the underlying PIR objects
07:59 audreyt (API as in "internal API" not as in the "toplevel match API")
07:59 luqui well, I'm happily porting PGE to perl 6
07:59 luqui and it's turning out to be quite simple really
07:59 audreyt that's even better!
07:59 audreyt commit commit :)
07:59 audreyt ext/Rules/
07:59 luqui Parse::Rule
07:59 luqui already there
07:59 audreyt oh wow
08:00 luqui it's just skeleton at this point though
08:00 audreyt and just a day old
08:00 audreyt excellent... just go ahead then. I'll ping you if I have questions/problems in its integration
08:00 audreyt luqui++
08:00 luqui mmkay
08:02 audreyt luqui: oh, a lang q
08:02 luqui ?
08:02 audreyt "opaque" is not hash; it must provide setattr and getattr
08:02 audreyt according to s12
08:03 audreyt must it support enumerate_keys?
08:03 audreyt is it possible to have an object with infinite number of attrs?
08:03 luqui let me look at that part of s12
08:03 audreyt an object that's just a function, that is
08:03 luqui can you point me at a line number in s12?
08:03 audreyt reason I ask is something is not easily enumerable -- and some objects can respond to getattr requests
08:04 audreyt grep for PyDict
08:04 audreyt the thing they have in common is get/set; not sure if enumeration is part of the deal or not
08:05 audreyt certainl not dynamic extensibility (Cstruct can't)
08:05 luqui I don't think enumerate_keys is necessary for this interface
08:05 luqui the only reason you'd need it is for reflection
08:06 luqui but that is going to have to dig into the implementation type anyway
08:06 audreyt yeah
08:06 audreyt I seem to recall in A12 there's a %$obj form
08:06 audreyt where the underlying opaque emulates a hash
08:06 audreyt but something doesn't make sense, like
08:06 audreyt %$obj = ();
08:06 audreyt so I wasn't sure how far the emulation has to go
08:07 audreyt get/set makes sense as the language has
08:07 audreyt $!foo = 'bar';
08:07 audreyt but I don't see a %!
08:07 luqui %! on its own, as in, "all private attributes"?
08:07 audreyt yeah
08:07 audreyt if you don't recall a demand to support it in the language level for all objects, I'll remove it from the object interface as it makes implementation easier
08:07 luqui I don't recall anything of the sort
08:08 audreyt (because when bridgeing an unboxed type or foreign type I don't have to implement the full hash interface)
08:08 audreyt excellent, thanks!
08:08 luqui plus, such a thing can allow partial GC of object
08:08 audreyt verily
08:08 audreyt which another reason
08:08 audreyt and also for lazily instantiated objects
08:08 luqui hmmm... was there a recent doctrine on messing with %MY?
08:08 audreyt which is a huge win in Hs runcore -- not sure if applies elsewhere
08:08 audreyt I think you can't introduce new keys to it
08:08 audreyt not  sure what else
08:08 luqui hmm
08:09 audreyt I think it's just a proxy and translates into corresponding prims
08:09 luqui because I really want pads to be able to clean up per-variable as in p5
08:09 audreyt explain?
08:09 audreyt (I mean need to run in 10mins)
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08:09 luqui sub { my $x = 42;  '$x is cleaned up here';  stuff that doesn't use $x }
08:10 luqui I think that's important for the memory efficiency of a language that uses closures heavily
08:10 audreyt oh... you need some sort of reachability analysis
08:10 audreyt JHC does that natively -- they even clean up types
08:10 audreyt so all types are passed in along with values
08:11 luqui (which parrot won't do)
08:11 audreyt but if they are not used they are erased
08:11 audreyt so multis and GADT can be implemented very efficiently
08:11 * luqui doesn't know much about implementation of those guys
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08:12 luqui anyway, that little nicety is what perl5's L::AG uses to be memory efficient
08:13 audreyt cool
08:13 audreyt also I use Perl6::Subs at $job
08:13 audreyt will probably submit some patches
08:13 luqui and I was bummed when I found out that perl6 would require a different technique
08:13 luqui because it keeps all lexicals around as a whole
08:13 audreyt and implement readonly of args properly with INTERNALS::SvREADONLY and Devel::LexAlias
08:14 audreyt huh? lexicals attach to closure because  we do hoisting
08:14 luqui hoisting?
08:14 audreyt { ... my $x; ... }
08:14 audreyt $x is hoisted to top of {}
08:14 audreyt before ...
08:14 luqui no, I mean that no lexicals are cleaned up until they all are
08:14 audreyt I don't see that in spec.
08:14 luqui it is implied from %MY fiddling
08:15 audreyt not so... the presence of %MY indicates a proxy object
08:15 audreyt which is bound to each lex items and thus keeping them alive
08:15 audreyt without presence we can freely ignore it
08:15 luqui and CALLER?
08:15 audreyt and if you want to eval"", a snapshot is there anyway
08:15 audreyt CALLER only attaches to "env $x" vars
08:15 luqui that was the doctrine I was thinking of!
08:15 audreyt so has no power over my $x vars
08:15 audreyt env$x vars are passed implicitly
08:15 luqui okay good
08:16 audreyt they are like (?x) implicit parameters in GHC
08:16 audreyt cool then, glad we agree :)
08:16 audreyt ok, I gotta run -- keep up the P6GE work :D
08:16 * audreyt waves &
08:17 audreyt oh also -- I wonder if @*ARGS acan become @+ARGS.
08:17 luqui what is $+ again?
08:17 audreyt much easier reachability analysis
08:17 audreyt env
08:17 audreyt CALLER
08:17 luqui right
08:17 * luqui has fallen behind on those parts of the spec
08:18 audreyt it's good to have division of labour :)
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08:19 audreyt hi PJF, bye PJF. :)) *wave* &
08:21 PJF Hi Audrey!  I hope you've recovered from all your busy travels.  Bye Audrey. ;)
08:22 gaal awww, moosed again.
08:22 gaal hi all :)
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08:24 pasteling "gaal" at 192.115.25.249 pasted "Extract an Exp from a VList" (3 lines, 212B) at http://sial.org/pbot/15013
08:25 PJF Hi Gaal.  Moosed?
08:27 gaal hey PJF. We both narrowly moosed audreyt :)
08:29 * PJF laughs, "I've never encountered that use of the word before."
08:29 gaal http://forum2.org/moose/
08:29 * gaal makes coffee
08:30 PJF Gaal: I've noticed you have a docs/articles/tpr.pod.  Has that been published yet?
08:32 xinming1983 has joined #perl6
08:34 gaal PJF: no, it's on hold for a while.
08:37 PJF gaal: Okay.  I was reading through it during a car-trip today.  I think it's very good.  (Although I did submit a 2 character patch)
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08:42 gaal thank you! was it useful to you before you knew much about writing p6 programs?
08:43 PJF Gaal: Very.  I still haven't done very much p6 programming, and what I have done has looked identical to p5.
08:47 gaal PJF: I ask because the editor felt the text wasn't very newcomer-friendly, but I didn't really know how that ought to be improved (except to try for more concrete examples and fewer abstract language discussions).
08:49 gaal ...which is kinda hard in something that's an article, not a book.
08:49 gaal anymoose, thanks for encouraging me to revisit this :)
08:50 gaal and for the patch :)
08:50 PJF gaal: I agree that fewer abstract discussions would probably help.  They tend to excite designers, but can easily miss (and bore) the regular readers.
08:52 PJF gaal: Since I was in a noisy car at the time I read over the article in a rather haphazard way.  I can re-review it with a more critical eye if you'd like.
08:53 PJF gaal: Provided you don't mind me using it as inspiration for a Perl-tip ( http://perltraining.com.au/tips/ ) later on. ;)
08:53 gaal hey, reading it in difficult conditions is a stress-test on its own :-)
08:53 gaal PJF: you are welcome to make as much use of it as you like. :-)
08:54 gaal it's under CC for that purpose too.
08:54 gaal Whee, those look really nice!
08:55 gaal like FMTYWTK except not really FM for the regualr interested reader.
08:56 PJF gaal: We need to redo the perl-tips page because we have so many now.  They're *mostly* aimed at entry level programmers, as they make up a great deal of our readership.
08:56 gaal BTW: in http://perltraining.com.au/tips/2005-04-22.html, it is claimed that
08:56 gaal # print "This is a simple static string";
08:57 gaal # print 'This is a simple static string';
08:57 gaal are equally fast. they are, to run. I think the second one parses infinitismally faster though.
08:57 gaal which is a very poor excuse to prefer it, I know. :-)
08:58 PJF gaal: It almost certainly does, because Perl doesn't need to look for interpolation.  But once it's been parsed, they're the same.  ;)
08:58 gaal of course.
08:59 gaal PJF: As for the arrangement problem: yeah, there's a deep problem of aggregating knowledge :-(
08:59 PJF gaal: However, it's worth preferring it because it's easier for humans to parse, too, and that can take much longer.  Every time I see double-quotes I need to go looking to see if interpolation will happen.  Although I prefer q{...} over '...' , as I find it easier to find matching braces than quotes.
08:59 gaal just make sure everything is usefully searchable.
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09:00 gaal PJF: well, p6 will make this better in the typical case at least, because introducing general interpolated values is so easy, ie,
09:01 gaal @{[ blah ]}  ==> { yay }
09:01 gaal of course, it comes at the cost of you having to take note of all the adverbs to q{}.
09:02 PJF gaal: That's one of my most favourite features.  You have no idea how often the 'expression interpolation' question comes up in classes.
09:02 gaal of course, and it does because people are really happy they have interpolation in the first place! (unlike most other languages)
09:03 gaal The fact that it's nuanced by modifiers is both a pro and a con; I believe it weighs far to the positive side because the nuances are regular and well-documented.
09:03 gaal adverbial modifiers in general are wonderful.
09:04 gaal I should stop preaching to the choir though :-)
09:05 PJF gaal: I should re-read the sheet music.  Despite me having grabbed pugs to play more with p6, I've mostly spent my time in p5 build-system land.  Right now I'm seeing if I can compile a ghc for cygwin.
09:06 gaal that would be grand. among other things that would buy us p5 embedding.
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09:08 PJF gaal: As far as I can tell ghc used to be built against the cygwin library for Windows.  I can understand they moved away from that so there could be a stand-alone ghc for win32, but I'm surprised not to parallel win32 and cygwin distributions.  Looks like I'll soon find out if there's a good reason why.
09:15 gaal PJF: I never looked into it very deeply, but I think it may have to do with ABI changes necessitating frequent ghc upgrades and your run-of-the-mill dependency hell. But then, I think cygwin has stabilized muchly since say five years ago, so this may have become much better.
09:16 PJF ABI changes?
09:17 gaal binary structs change size, you suddenly can't just relink against something that worked, that kind of stuff.
09:18 gaal I'm just guessing though: maybe it's because people already had the MSYS version working, which was faster and "good enough".
09:18 PJF gaal: Well, it seems to be happily compiling now.  The make process took a very long time, though.
09:18 PJF s/make/configure/
09:19 gaal yes, ghc is known to take ages to build. if you run into problems, you know about #haskell right?
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09:19 PJF gaal: Not yet. ;)
09:20 PJF q{ghc.exe: unknown package: unix} ... Hmm...
09:25 gaal looks like configure made a mistake. but I can't say more than that :-/
09:38 _fallen- is now known as fallenstorm
09:43 PJF gaal: Looks a bit like a chicken-and-egg problem.  GHC needs at least a posix/unix package to build for a unix-like system.  However the Win32 GHC (which I'm using to try and build the cygwin system) doesn't come with such a package.
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09:50 gaal ouch :( though I don't understand why it would need a binary version of that package.
09:51 gaal maybe to get some constants? too bad, I'd have hoped configuration could take care of that.
09:51 PJF gaal: So would I.  Cygwin builds are 'unsupported', it would appear.  I haven't done much digging beyond that, just testing if it would work out of the box.
09:52 gaal in pugs we rely on perl5's Configure to have done that hard work for us. Of course one day we'll have to take our heads out of the sand and do it ourselves, but that day is a while away. :)
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14:10 clkao audreyt: you around? i found an interesting thing. pugs is trying to 'use' by grepping it from column 1. so if i have a multi-line eval with a use in it, like unspecced/p5/array.t, it fails early
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15:06 araujo The less i was expecting to find at Main.hs was a spanish poem :-]
15:15 avar ?eval *("x")
15:15 avar evalbot, where art thou?
15:19 xinming avar: He is in trance :-)
15:21 xinming avar: since the freenode is changed temporarily, the evalbot hadn't been changed yet.
15:22 audreyt how had it changed?
15:23 audreyt oh, chat.
15:23 clkao audreyt: what's the use problem? i want to hook use perl5:blah into pil2js
15:23 audreyt clkao: use() is handled in Pugs.Parser
15:24 audreyt look at how JSAN use is handled for some clues
15:24 clkao uhm, it's using another function iirc
15:24 audreyt both my laptop and my ipod is broken... so can't chat for long. fortunately by tomorrow noon I should have a working laptop back
15:24 clkao dude
15:24 wolverian ow
15:25 clkao it's end of 2005. how many laptops did you break this year?
15:25 audreyt yeah, so maybe hack in use jsperl5:DBI
15:25 audreyt first, a dude I am not. second, there was only one, mmkay?
15:25 gaal hey audreyt
15:25 audreyt clkao: anyway, try making jsperl5:DBI work, I'll reconcile (or gaal may)
15:26 clkao but it should be perl5: !
15:26 audreyt which is what I mean by "reconcile"
15:26 audreyt depending on the current -C setting
15:26 audreyt generate different code
15:26 clkao *nod*
15:26 audreyt gaal: hey... what's up?
15:27 gaal hey. I didn't get a chance to follow up on trying VOpaque. let me find the ol' paste...
15:27 xinming audreyt: I mean the freenode server address is changed. :-/
15:27 audreyt cool... I'll be back in ~10min
15:28 xinming I don't know if irc.freenode.net still works
15:28 gaal oh! too bad about the laptop and ipod :-)
15:28 gaal s/)/(/
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15:28 audreyt heh :)
15:28 clkao XD
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15:29 gaal I guess my fingers are, uh, smiley-happy.
15:29 gaal http://sial.org/pbot/15013
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15:32 gaal clkao + audreyt: I don't see an obvious reason for the ^use problem in the parser.
15:33 xinming audreyt: how do you translate monadic action into Chinese?
15:34 gaal also, this does work:
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15:34 gaal ./pugs -e 'eval qq{ \n  use Ex; say "ho"}; say "hi"'           => "hi\nho", which is correct
15:35 gaal (where Ex is some module that happens to load OK and do nothing)
15:36 gaal audreyt: ok, I don't see how VOpaque can help at all.
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15:38 audreyt xinming: just "action: -- ignore Monad
15:39 audreyt gaal: unsafeEvalExp yields Val not Exp iirc
15:40 audreyt oh wait
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15:40 audreyt sorry it yields Expm just patmatch it
15:40 audreyt now you have as list of values that's exported?
15:41 audreyt (map Val bindings) give you raw vals
15:41 audreyt as Val :: Val -> Exp
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15:41 audreyt but won't you need the names as well?
15:41 avar why does @a »++ give me a can't modify constant error in a subroutine that has sub f(@a is rw) ..
15:42 audreyt avar: hm... commit a test?
15:42 audreyt (do you have a committer bit?)
15:42 audreyt also try "is copy" and see if they differ
15:43 gaal whoops, sorry, let me nopate the whole patch again (the list contains bindings, supposedly complete)
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15:44 avar is copy gives me the same error
15:44 pasteling "gaal" at 192.115.25.249 pasted "export patch wip" (88 lines, 4.2K) at http://sial.org/pbot/15014
15:44 avar hang on, I'll upload a testcase
15:44 audreyt avar: a bug then. write a t/pugsbugs/
15:45 gaal audreyt: the idea is I keep "mkExp name"s around.
15:45 gaal (hoping it works.)
15:45 avar http://avar.lir.dk/tmp/calc.p6
15:45 avar (and I don't have commit rights)
15:45 avar ;)
15:46 gaal avar: email? :)
15:46 audreyt gaal: that will fully eval mkExp name
15:46 audreyt in part of earlier unsafeEvalExp
15:46 audreyt instead of keeping it around
15:46 avar email you the testcase?
15:47 audreyt avar: no, so that gaal can give you the committer bit
15:47 gaal avar: no, what is your email, so we can give you a commit bit
15:47 avar hah
15:47 gaal you can /msg if you like.
15:47 avar [email@hidden.address]
15:47 avar ;)
15:47 audreyt gaal: can you post the patch somewhere in (say) src/Pugs/Parser.hs.export.patch or something in the repo, and invite avar to openfoundry?
15:48 audreyt I'll check back in ~9hrs when I have my own laptop back... can't do much coding in this one :/
15:48 avar nah it's just that projects usually don't give out commit rights so easily;)
15:48 gaal avar: invitation sent. welcome aboard!
15:48 audreyt gaal++ avar++
15:48 avar but yeah, I already have the repository checked out, I'll make a testcase & commit it
15:48 avar for is rw and is copy
15:49 audreyt gaal: if you want to keep whole Exp around as a Val, you may have to ship it around in a VOpaque (or better -- just use name/value in the hash to encode the exp)
15:49 audreyt gaal: but I don't have srctree in front of me... so if you can committ the (patched or just the patch) Parser.hs it'd help me a lot tomorrow
15:49 audreyt g'nite :)
15:50 gaal sure. i'll see what progress i make, and at the end of the day i'll post.
15:50 audreyt danke!
15:50 audreyt gaal++
15:50 gaal good luck laptophunting tomorrow!
15:50 audreyt and sorry about not been of much help... laptopping--
15:50 audreyt &
15:50 gaal night :)
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16:18 philstar got one question about perl6: will there be an index variable (in whatever replaces foreach () {} )?
16:19 xinming philstar: do you mean the $_ ?
16:19 xinming there won't be foreach in perl 6
16:19 philstar xinming: no, I mean the number of the array element called
16:19 philstar I'm asking this because I seem to be writing for(my $i=0;$i<@array;$i++) {} an awful lot and getting tired of it
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16:20 philstar but usually I need to use $i, so I can't use foreach in those cases
16:21 xinming philstar: why not use for (@array) {bla..bla.. $i ++? }
16:21 xinming my $i = 0; for (@a) { bla..bla.. $i ++ }
16:21 xinming philstar: and by the way, for and foreach are equal in most case.
16:22 philstar xinming: thanks for pointing that out... I must be stupid...
16:22 xinming and in perl 6, there won't be foreach
16:22 philstar that's cool then
16:22 xinming philstar: does that resolve your problem?
16:22 philstar yes, thanks
16:23 xinming :-)
16:23 xinming philstar: by the way, this works for perl 5,
16:23 philstar hmm... on second thought, all I save are three characters
16:24 philstar $i<
16:24 philstar so it's actually almost as verbose as before!
16:24 xinming hmm, maybe you mean the iterator.
16:24 xinming hold on please
16:25 philstar sure
16:26 philstar brb
16:28 gaal ?eval for <a b c d e>.kv -> $i, $v { say "$i/$v" }
16:29 xinming gaal: do you know if there is a iterator or iter function which will return the current value of the iterator?
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16:30 gaal xinming: not afaik
16:30 gaal the above code doesn't work, btw: if you do it with an array, though, it does.
16:30 gaal I think that's a bug?
16:30 gaal ie this does work:
16:31 gaal ?eval my @l = <a b c d e>; for @l.kv -> $i, $v { say "$i/$v" }
16:31 gaal (where's evalbot?)
16:31 philstar gaal: this is perl6, I take it?
16:32 gaal philstar: yes.
16:32 philstar thanks
16:33 gaal $i will start at 0, btw.
16:33 xinming philstar: sorry, I can't understand your question, But you can ask here later if anyone comes.
16:33 philstar xinming: no, you were right: it's the iterator value I'm looking for
16:33 avar .kv ?
16:33 gaal avar: "k"ey-"v"alue
16:34 avar ah, of course;)
16:34 gaal used for hashes, it yields %h.keys Y %h.values
16:34 gaal with lists, it gives 0 .. Inf Y @list
16:35 gaal and with a pair, it just gives ($p.key, $p.value)
16:35 clkao nothingmuch: so what's the tool to diff two test result yml?
16:35 gaal (Y is the zip operator.)
16:35 gaal clkao: what's wrong with diff? :-)
16:36 gaal grep -v time measurements first though.
16:36 gaal they are already in the same order - or should be.
16:41 avar gaal: http://rt.openfoundry.org/Foundry/User/?User=78788
16:41 avar woot
16:41 justatheory has joined #perl6
16:42 xinming avar: add yourself to AUTHOR first. :-P
16:43 avar I can claim to be co-author for the AUTHOR file then
16:44 gaal avar: :-)
16:45 avar how do I check out the repository under my username so I can commit stuff?
16:45 xinming I think you can
16:45 avar svn co [some svn schema]://[avar]...@svn.openfoundry.org/pugs ...
16:45 gaal you'll be prompted for login on your first checkin.
16:45 xinming yes.
16:45 gaal your currently anonymous co will be upgraded when you do that.
16:46 avar ah of course
16:46 avar I've usually worked with svn repositories though svn+ssh
16:47 justatheory has quit IRC ()
16:49 avar I know what I'm going to write, example scripts which demonstrate every language feature;)
16:49 avar is there something like that already?
16:51 avar is that list ordered by en_US.utf8 ?
16:51 avar (AUTHORS)
16:51 avar because then I'm at the top;)
16:52 xinming avar: the first letter must be upper cased. ;-)
16:52 ndm has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.69 [Firefox 1.5/2005111116]")
16:53 avar uh, apperently not..
16:53 avar I'm between Ad and Al
16:54 avar Ae and Af rather
16:59 stevan has joined #perl6
17:00 gaal avar: look in examples/ - and check out pugs::hack (hack.pod)
17:05 stevan hey gaal
17:07 gaal yo stevan
17:07 philstar has quit IRC ("Leaving")
17:07 gaal what up?
17:09 stevan not much... and you?
17:09 stevan just trying to test the Bootstrap.pil
17:10 stevan however my dog thinks this is a horrible idea, so it is going kinda slow :)
17:10 gaal just testing the tensility of the parser and the runtime
17:11 stevan only as a side effect of testing the model itself :)
17:11 gaal incidentally I rented Cool Hand Luke. But, er, not on the chanell :)
17:12 gaal oh, i meant that was what *I* was up to
17:12 stevan ah
17:12 stevan excellent :)
17:12 gaal moving stuff from Exp to Eval. Carefully. :)
17:12 stevan TDD++ :)
17:13 gaal oh yeah
17:17 wolverian has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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17:17 nothingmuch clkao: head revision of Test::TAP::Harness
17:17 nothingmuch err
17:17 nothingmuch HTMLMatrix
17:17 nothingmuch http://nothingmuch.wooblin​g.org/Test-TAP-HTMLMatrix/
17:17 nothingmuch http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/Test-TAP-Model/
17:17 nothingmuch see example.pl in TTH
17:18 gaal nothingmuch: ping
17:18 kane_ has joined #perl6
17:18 Smari has joined #perl6
17:19 nothingmuch pong on IOCQ
17:23 webmind ey Smari
17:23 Smari Eyy webmind!
17:24 clkao nothingmuch: i basically want to compare js run and jsperl5 run, ignoring those failing haskell one
17:25 webmind Smari, looking into perl6 eh?
17:25 nothingmuch clkao: from the smoke server, or from yml?
17:25 avar gaal: Am I supposed to transliterate non-ascii characters in the first field in authors?
17:26 gaal avar: it's utf-8
17:26 nothingmuch from yml: unserialize, and copy paste the example.pl file in T::T::H, and just put the data instead of runs
17:26 nothingmuch http://nothingmuch.woobling.org​/Test-TAP-HTMLMatrix/example.pl
17:26 avar yeah but people have stuff like Amir "lightstep" Livine Bar-On               עמיר ליבנה בר-און
17:26 avar and Andras Barthazi                              András Bártházi
17:26 gaal that's utf-8 :-)
17:26 avar there
17:26 Smari webmind: I have for ages, just not very actively. Got updated yesterday to what's important.. and I'm impressed.
17:26 clkao nothingmuch: either
17:27 nothingmuch clkao: 'my $model_ok'...'my $model_failing' - replace with loads
17:27 nothingmuch but for smoke server - too late
17:27 webmind Smari, ah k :)
17:27 nothingmuch it uploads the HTML instead of the YML
17:27 nothingmuch we need a smoke server that's:
17:27 nothingmuch a. yml friendly
17:27 nothingmuch b. easier to maintain
17:27 nothingmuch c. not a .cgi
17:27 nothingmuch (or at least not necessarily a CGI)
17:28 nothingmuch d. caching (to make a. easier)
17:28 nothingmuch not just yml friendly - storable friendly is also important
17:28 svnbot6 r8282 | avar++ | * I'm one of the authors of this hack, apperently;)
17:28 rafl Maybe someone should rewrite it using catalyst..
17:30 rafl Actually I have some free time. Can you tell me what it needs to do exactly? I think I'll rewrite it.
17:30 rafl But unfortunately I don't know much about the smoke process.
17:32 nothingmuch rafl: basically, test harness runs
17:32 nothingmuch Test::TAP::Model collects the run data
17:32 nothingmuch into a thing that can be serialized
17:32 nothingmuch this should be storabled, and posted to the app
17:32 nothingmuch which should save the file in some model (file, or DB, i guess)
17:33 nothingmuch list view can display by date, platform, yadda yadda
17:33 nothingmuch (should be multiproject friendly... we in pugsland like backends, parrot needs runcores and platforms)
17:33 nothingmuch (catalyst would like perl/module versions)
17:33 nothingmuch C::P::Cache can be used to save rendered HTML for each yml
17:33 nothingmuch or storable
17:34 nothingmuch compression support for uploads should be available too
17:34 nothingmuch the layout of the current thing is pretty nice, and i guess that saves time too
17:34 nothingmuch but it should be more comprehensive
17:34 nothingmuch lastly, a compare feature would be nice - check N results, and it makes a consolidated display (like in the example.pl i linked to)
17:35 Southen_ has joined #perl6
17:36 rafl OK, I'll do that.
17:36 nothingmuch rafl++!
17:36 nothingmuch you get a beer
17:36 nothingmuch i'll post a reward on the catalyst wiki
17:37 rafl I'm not sure about how the data should be stored on the server. Would sqlite be sufficient?
17:37 nothingmuch http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/wiki/BeerRewards
17:37 nothingmuch yes, i think it will
17:37 nothingmuch storable in blobs
17:38 nothingmuch (texts, really)
17:38 nothingmuch but some people might prefer a dir of files
17:38 nothingmuch go with what you think is easier
17:39 rafl beer++
17:39 nothingmuch oh, repository snapshot vs release also sucks
17:39 nothingmuch the way i think it should work:
17:39 nothingmuch you have "dimensions" that describe the smoke result
17:40 nothingmuch like in OLAP
17:40 Qiang has quit IRC ("Leaving")
17:40 nothingmuch version, branch, platform, etc etc
17:40 rafl Well, with sql comparisons, sorting, etc would be easier.
17:40 nothingmuch the "default" dimension is used to sort them initially
17:40 nothingmuch like, sort by branch, then platform, then version yields pugs smoke page
17:40 nothingmuch err, sorry
17:40 nothingmuch branch, platform, smoke date
17:41 nothingmuch then people can create cross sections
17:42 rafl Sounds reasonable.
17:42 nothingmuch it's also more maintainable than the current way it
17:42 nothingmuch 's hacked in
17:42 nothingmuch basically the model should just be pluggable
17:43 * clkao grins
17:43 clkao perl5/PIL2JS/runjs.pl --run=jspm --perl5 -e 'use jsperl5:Digest::MD5 <md5_hex>; say md5_hex("test")'
17:43 nothingmuch in the config there's a list of dimension relationship/columns
17:43 clkao this now works
17:43 nothingmuch spidermonkey runtime embedded in perl 5 running perl 5 modules and perl 6 code?
17:44 nothingmuch this runtime prefix thing should be much more generalized
17:44 nothingmuch the interface is the same on perl5: and jsperl5:, so there should be a way to just say "use this interface, and to hell with the backend type"
17:45 clkao nothingmuch: yes
17:45 clkao i know, it needs to be perl5:
17:45 nothingmuch nevermind, it's just a hack now
17:45 nothingmuch but it should be p6l'ed
17:45 clkao autrijus said she can fsck it tomorrow
17:45 clkao p6l?
17:45 nothingmuch perl6-languaged
17:45 nothingmuch the interface for using this should be posted for discussion
17:47 nothingmuch rafl: please mention that you are up for the task on the wiki
17:49 rafl nothingmuch: Done.
17:50 clkao i don't understand this. if you put 'use jsperl5:Digest::MD5 <md5_hex>' in a file it won't work unless it's at the beginning
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17:57 nothingmuch rafl: great
17:58 Southen_ has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
18:13 svnbot6 r8283 | stevan++ | - created Test::PIL::Boostrap for testing Bootstrap.pil specifically
18:13 svnbot6 r8283 | stevan++ | - temp files are now cleaned up by Test::PIL
18:13 svnbot6 r8283 | stevan++ | PIL.Native.Bootstrap.pil
18:13 svnbot6 r8283 | stevan++ | - added set_* for name, version & authority
18:13 svnbot6 r8283 | stevan++ | - set defaults for version & authority for Class, Object, Module & Package
18:13 svnbot6 r8283 | stevan++ | t/pil/bootstrap.t
18:13 svnbot6 r8283 | stevan++ | - added 52 tests (11 failing ones) to test the integrity of the meta-model
18:24 avar my @nums = 1..5;
18:24 avar @nums »++;
18:24 avar fails
18:24 avar is it supposed to?
18:40 svnbot6 r8284 | avar++ | * A hyper operator testcase that fails
18:50 nothingmuch has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
18:56 svnbot6 r8285 | clkao++ | perl5/PIL2JS/runjs.pl --run=jspm --perl5 -e
18:56 svnbot6 r8285 | clkao++ |   'use jsperl5:Digest::MD5 <md5_hex>; say md5_hex("test")'
18:56 svnbot6 r8285 | clkao++ | now works.
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19:01 xinming anyone here can tell me how to run the compiled Javascript code? :-/
19:03 clkao spidermonkey?
19:03 clkao or you use my JavaScript.pm and that runjs line you saw above
19:04 araujo Is it perl6 too much different from perl5?
19:06 xinming open2: exec of js failed at pugs/perl5/PIL2JS/lib/PIL2JS.pm line 162
19:07 xinming :-S
19:08 clkao you have js ?
19:09 xinming No >_<
19:09 xinming by the way, Is the runnable code which can be run in browser? :-/
19:10 clkao see README
19:10 clkao pil2js.pl can create html files for you
19:11 xinming It's really a crazy man who thought compile perl 6 into JavaScript. :-/
19:11 xinming clkao: I will check it
19:16 clkao is it even crazier now the compiled javascript can actually use perl5?
19:16 Khisanth hehe
19:17 avar araujo: what do you consider too much?;)
19:17 Khisanth well there are lots of changes but it's still largely the same
19:18 xinming In fact, I ever think, If we can compile parrot into JavaScript :-)
19:18 araujo avar, well.. so much like we probably think about perl6 like a new language :-P
19:19 araujo we could*
19:19 Odin-LAP araujo: The differences are substantial.
19:19 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
19:20 Odin-LAP Substantial enough that perl5 thinking may not apply to perl6 programming. Which, I guess, makes it a new language.
19:20 Odin-LAP But that doesn't mean it's "too different"! :p
19:20 araujo Interesting, thanks
19:20 araujo I think you have answered my question ;-)
19:20 Khisanth Odin-LAP: only because you no longer need to rely on tricks to get certain things working (well hopefully)
19:22 avar I'd say it's a new language, given all the differences
19:22 Odin-LAP Khisanth: Well ... yes. But that's usually the difference between languages, isn't it? Having to use tricks in more or fewer places. :)
19:22 Odin-LAP Or sometimes even just different...
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19:35 leo clkao: still about?
19:39 clkao yes
19:46 leo at #parrot: 20:34 < ^conner_> I think clkao needs to beat me with a clue stick
19:46 leo you got a minute for him?
19:47 xinming has quit IRC ("I really love GNU")
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19:48 avar multi sub circumfix:<¡ ¡> ($n) { abs $n } <- shouldn't this work?
19:50 Smari has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
19:51 avar I'm unable to get any circumfix stuff working
20:08 Smari has joined #perl6
20:11 avar how do I get a hash key from a value?
20:11 avar (first match)
20:16 xinming reverse?
20:17 wolverian theoretically, %hash.reverse<$foo>
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20:51 svnbot6 r8286 | avar++ | Replaced:
20:51 svnbot6 r8286 | avar++ | -multi sub sum (*$x, *@xs) returns Int { $x + sum(@xs) }
20:51 svnbot6 r8286 | avar++ | +multi sub sum (Array *@x) returns Int { [+] @x }
20:53 wolverian isn't the 'sub' there redundant?
20:54 rafl afaik yes.
20:55 clkao doh, the example is not demostrating functional anymore
20:58 rafl avar: Would you please revert your last change?
20:58 avar bah, I was just going through stuff and changing it,)
20:58 avar aiight
20:58 rafl avar: This was an example for functional programing and it's not functional anymore.
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21:02 svnbot6 r8287 | avar++ | Ooops, wrong directory
21:03 rafl (descriptive commit messages)++
21:04 wolverian heh.
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21:30 Smari Hmm. Is there a karmabot here?
21:34 Juerd Smari: Does that matter?
21:34 Smari Juerd: long time no see.
21:34 Smari No, it doesn't.
21:35 Juerd The only reason I'm responding is because I recognised your nick :)
21:35 Juerd How are things?
21:35 Smari But it would explain all the mad incrementing of terms..
21:35 Juerd karma foo
21:35 Smari Things are good.. not been IRCing much for a while.
21:36 Juerd Why are you interested in Perl 6?
21:36 Smari How can I not be?
21:36 Juerd The question wasn't "how" :)
21:36 revdiablo perlbot: karma avar
21:36 perlbot Karma for avar: 1
21:36 Juerd perlbot: karma foo
21:36 perlbot foo doesn't have any karma
21:36 Juerd foo++
21:36 Juerd perlbot: karma foo
21:36 perlbot Karma for foo: 1
21:36 revdiablo perlbot: karma autrijus
21:36 perlbot Karma for autrijus: 90
21:36 Juerd Wowie.
21:36 Juerd perlbot: karma audreyt
21:36 perlbot Karma for audreyt: 8
21:36 Juerd Can it alias? :)
21:36 Juerd i.e. symlink
21:37 revdiablo Sure it could, but I don't think it does. =)
21:37 Smari Haha. Okay.. let me rephrase my answer: I'm a programmer, and a student of mathematics and linguistics. Perl, and particularly Perl 6, is...
21:37 Juerd Uh oh.
21:37 Juerd Maths and linguistics.
21:37 Smari It's a good mix, no matter what people say.
21:38 Juerd Get out of here before discovering that everything you learn in school is only partly true :P
21:38 Juerd Of course it's a good mix.
21:38 Juerd See Perl :)
21:38 Smari Juerd: Hah. Do you think I don't know that already? :P
21:38 Smari Juerd: Exactly.
21:38 Smari I don't know if Perl was a motivation to get into the math/langs mix, probably not though..
21:39 Juerd What can your role in Perl 6 be?
21:39 Smari Ahh. My role? User, probably.
21:39 Smari I'd like to develop it, but I have not the time.
21:39 Juerd Right, so why are you here years early then? :P
21:39 Juerd Not that I mind - I'm just curious
21:39 Smari Because I'm never anything but a power user. :)
21:39 Juerd And you want to add pioneer to that?
21:39 Smari Besides, I've got my fingers in way too many things already...
21:40 Smari Haha. Exactly.
21:40 Juerd It'd be great if you could just start using Perl 6 now, and report bugs in the form of test scripts.
21:41 Smari Working on getting Pugs up.
21:41 Smari Debian is being a bitch though.
21:41 Juerd Huh? It works perlfectly in Debian
21:42 Smari I didn't say it didn't.
21:42 Smari But Debian itsself is being a bitch. Pugs won't compile without Haskel, and Haskel won't install without something that seems to be missing from the repository.
21:42 Smari My fault for using unstable I guess, but hey..
21:43 Juerd Hm, feather runs sid, and I haven't noticed issues yet
21:43 Juerd Let's try to fuck things up, and upgrade
21:43 Smari Probably just rhnet.is
21:44 gaal Smari: apt-get install ghc6, not ghc-cvs.
21:45 Smari gaal: Done that already. It all stops on e2fsprogs, which is ... well:
21:45 gaal Juerd: I've been running unstable for years with very few problems. Not no a server though. :)
21:45 Smari E: This installation run will require temporarily removing the essential package e2fsprogs due to a Conflicts/Pre-Depends loop. This is often bad, but if you really want to do it, activate the APT::Force-LoopBreak option.
21:45 Smari E: Internal Error, Could not early remove e2fsprogs
21:45 Smari Any ideas?
21:46 Juerd gaal: I run it on at least a dozen different servers.
21:46 gaal that doesn't look directly related to ghc, but if you aren't afraid of powerouts, do what it suggests.
21:46 Smari I'd use APT::Force-LoopBreak if I knew where to put it...
21:46 gaal on the command line.
21:46 Juerd gaal: And have, for years, without problems that couldn't be fixed in less time than I'd have spent compiling new stuff myself.
21:47 gaal Juerd: except for once, the gtk2 pic2<->3 trouble that took a week to sort out.
21:47 gaal Smari: I don't rembember the exact syntax, but the apt man page has it, I think.
21:47 Smari Ahh, thanks.
21:47 Juerd Smari: Oh, that stuff has been terribly broken in sid for a while. The solution is to upgrade more frequently :)
21:47 Smari -o of course.
21:47 Juerd Smari: Though you can't go back in time.
21:47 gaal but you can slow it down!
21:48 gaal the technique I know for it doesn't give you longevity though.
21:48 Smari Whee.
21:48 gaal (go to lots of meetings)
21:48 Smari Juerd: Ahh, of course. I haven't upgraded for ages.
21:49 Smari Now.. should I be doing this or studying for my analysis exam?
21:49 Juerd Smari: In any case, make sure you run a 2.4 kernel or newer, or things will break so bad you'll be sorry to have *ever* upgraded.
21:49 Juerd Do you know enough for the exam? Are you confident?
21:50 kane_ has quit IRC ()
21:51 Smari I am not.
21:51 Smari Juerd: 2.6.3 here.. which is old, but not *that* old.
21:51 Juerd Then study.
21:52 Smari Aye.
21:52 Smari Pugs shall compile first.
21:52 Smari :)
21:52 Smari (I'm reading on Wikipedia ...)
21:55 clkao is the bootstrapping plan somehow docuemnted somewhere?
21:58 avar Smari: still trying to compile it?
21:59 iblechbot_ has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
22:02 xinming hmm, anyone here tell me how to customize the output of pod2html?
22:02 xinming If I use pod2html, I can't generate the synopsis which is same as the site.
22:16 Smari avar: Still fixing apt.
22:22 Juerd Smari, go study!
22:25 bsb has left
22:27 stevan_ has joined #perl6
22:27 stevan_ clkao: ping
22:27 clkao stevan_: hi
22:27 Smari Juerd: Yes sir. :)
22:27 stevan_ clkao: you were asking about a bootstrapping plan?
22:27 clkao ya
22:28 stevan_ for the metamodel? objectspace? or p6-on-p6?
22:28 clkao p6-p6
22:28 stevan_ I dont think there is any clearly laid out plan anywhere
22:28 clkao ok, because i was playing around and implemented hyperop stuff in p6
22:29 stevan_ luqui said something the other day about having "claimed" it among the p6 cabal
22:29 obra clkao++ # hacking
22:29 clkao was thinking i shall ask to see where this can fit in
22:29 obra clkao: <unicode hotsprings>.org isn't taken
22:29 clkao is it a valid domain name?
22:29 obra yes.
22:29 obra using punycode.
22:30 stevan_ clkao: you might want to take a look at the p6 prelude
22:30 clkao yes
22:30 obra (\u2668).
22:30 stevan_ however, I am not familiar with it, so I can't help any more than that
22:31 clkao that's fine. but what's the metameta bootstrap plan then?
22:32 obra (http://xn--j6h.org)
22:32 stevan_ clkao: currently it is centered on the Object Space
22:33 gaal whew, package A; use Moose; package B; use Moose works at last (but not lexically)
22:33 stevan_ the basic idea is that we have defined a minimal language with minimal features and are using that to implement the metamodel
22:33 gaal stevan! lucille!
22:34 stevan_ the hope is that this will make things much more portable, since diff runtimes will only need to implement this mini-language
22:34 stevan_ hey gaal
22:35 stevan_ clkao: and this mini-lang will eventually morph into PIL2
22:45 svnbot6 r8288 | gaal++ | * Pugs.Parser: Perform symbol importation at use time, not parse time.
22:45 svnbot6 r8288 | gaal++ |   This means that the second of two packages that use an exported function
22:45 svnbot6 r8288 | gaal++ |   sees it, like it should.
22:45 svnbot6 r8288 | gaal++ |   TODO: make this import lexically scoped by default; and honor importation
22:45 svnbot6 r8288 | gaal++ |   requests on the C<use> line. Oh, and add tests, too!
22:58 stevan_ has quit IRC ("Lost terminal")
23:02 gaal audreyt: not quite sure how to do the lexical import; hackage most welcome.
23:02 * gaal sleeps
23:02 gaal &
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