Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-12-21

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:09 rafl clkao: ping
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00:17 clkao rafl: hi
00:20 clkao rafl: 'sup?
00:20 rafl clkao: An svk problem: svk sync -a works fine if one of the servers is down. svk pull -a dies after the first server that's not reachable. I think pull should behave the same way sync does.
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00:28 clkao uhm. n noted
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00:30 rafl clkao: Thank you.
00:31 clkao rafl: you hack on js stuff as well?
00:33 rafl clkao: Not much. I only fix things that are necessary to distribute it well.
00:33 clkao ah ok
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01:05 audreyt stevan_: what's the diff between cls.isa and cls.is_a ?
01:06 stevan_ cls.is_a checks the class object, cls.isa checks against the name
01:06 audreyt k
01:06 clkao heard of the language "io" ?
01:06 buu Help, I can feel my sanity slipping away!
01:06 audreyt add it as comment in .pil?
01:06 audreyt clkao: yes, minilang is under its influence
01:07 stevan_ audreyt: will do
01:07 stevan_ is now known as stevan
01:07 audreyt or rather, I designed the semantics when drugged by io
01:07 clkao oh. someone is forking it. trying to chosoe between monotone, svk, and vesta
01:07 stevan forking Io? why?
01:07 clkao ""Moose" http://blurgle.blogspot.com/2005/12/moose.html
01:07 stevan the language has no keywords at all.. it is highly flexible
01:08 audreyt stevan: to add fork() capability to it? ;)
01:08 stevan hmm
01:08 audreyt http://blurgle.blogspot.com/20​05/12/thats-it-i-give-up.html
01:09 clkao lol
01:09 clkao audreyt: right, so you made jsperl5 backend pass 99% of the tests, did you notice?
01:09 audreyt sounds like something we can target
01:09 stevan :)
01:09 audreyt clkao: no I did not, wow that's impressive, what is the 1%?
01:10 clkao the 1% is 'use'
01:10 clkao you did, because all testse using "Test" are now skipped
01:10 audreyt heh...
01:10 audreyt ;)
01:10 christo has joined #perl6
01:10 audreyt the namespace bug is still unresolved? why?
01:10 audreyt I did grep and didn't find the bug
01:10 clkao no. i thought you said you gave up last night?
01:10 clkao er?
01:11 clkao ./pugs -CPugs -Iext/Test/lib /tmp/test.pl |grep Test::foo ?
01:12 audreyt yeah
01:12 audreyt I gave up jsperl5
01:12 audreyt not that
01:12 audreyt that is fixed
01:13 audreyt communication error
01:13 audreyt I gave up "use perl5:..." in js
01:13 audreyt the grep shows nothing here
01:14 stevan audreyt: any thoughts on next METHOD?
01:14 svnbot6 r8338 | stevan++ | PIL/Native/Bootstrap.pil - adding comment about difference between is_a() and isa()
01:14 svnbot6 r8337 | stevan++ | PIL/Native/Bootstrap.pil
01:14 svnbot6 r8337 | stevan++ | - added ::Class.isa() because it is different than ::Object.isa()
01:14 svnbot6 r8337 | stevan++ | t/pil/*
01:14 svnbot6 r8337 | stevan++ | - renamed metamodel.t to basic_object.t
01:14 svnbot6 r8337 | stevan++ | - added inheritence.t to test basic inheritance
01:15 clkao audreyt: oh ok.
01:15 audreyt stevan: it'd require exceptionhandling in minilang
01:16 audreyt it's essentially a throw followed by a dispatcher loop level catch
01:16 stevan audreyt: why not a lexical sub?
01:16 audreyt you are allowed to call your next method and then still return?
01:16 clkao i hate exception handling, and the people designing api for that
01:16 audreyt i.e. postprocess it
01:17 clkao it's never done right!
01:17 audreyt clkao: I'm trying to avoid that
01:17 stevan audreyt: well, that is what call() was supposed to do
01:17 clkao https://bugzilla.mozilla.o​rg/show_bug.cgi?id=321021
01:17 clkao for your enjoyment
01:17 stevan but I have been thinking that there is no need for call() and next METHOD
01:17 audreyt self.call ?
01:17 svnbot6 r8339 | rafl++ |  r23721@ata:  rafl | 2005-12-19 19:04:25 +0100
01:17 svnbot6 r8339 | rafl++ |  * JIB::Repository:
01:17 svnbot6 r8339 | rafl++ |    + Don't use Math::Conbinatorics anymore
01:17 svnbot6 r8339 | rafl++ |    + Fixed doc typo
01:17 audreyt oh?
01:18 stevan audreyt: I would prefer self.next_method or something similar
01:18 audreyt oh so just nomenclature
01:18 stevan actually I dont like the self. part
01:18 audreyt &?NEXT_METHOD
01:18 svnbot6 r8340 | rafl++ |  r23722@ata:  rafl | 2005-12-19 19:12:17 +0100
01:18 svnbot6 r8340 | rafl++ |  JIB:
01:18 svnbot6 r8340 | rafl++ |  * Removed usage of File::Spec in favour of Path::Class.
01:18 theorbtwo Shouldn't it be a method on the current arglist?
01:19 stevan &?NEXT_METHOD is good
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01:21 svnbot6 r8341 | rafl++ |  r23723@ata:  rafl | 2005-12-19 19:12:40 +0100
01:21 svnbot6 r8341 | rafl++ |  * Some more comments on JIB::Repository.
01:21 svnbot6 r8342 | rafl++ |  r23724@ata:  rafl | 2005-12-19 19:29:02 +0100
01:21 svnbot6 r8342 | rafl++ |  * Fixed a warning in the JIB::Package test suite
01:22 clkao what does jib mean?
01:22 rafl JIB Is Brilliant.
01:22 clkao brilliant.
01:22 rafl It's the package manager for Perl 6.
01:22 clkao can you promoise mean it won't suck?
01:22 rafl Or it will be or I hope it will be or whatever..
01:22 audreyt ...because .p6p would be too mundane :)
01:23 rafl clkao: It's in early stages of development. Help us to make it suck less. :-)
01:23 clkao nice try :)
01:23 clkao i will take a look when i am bored
01:23 rafl :-(
01:24 rafl But well.. I'd like to see my svk problem fixed first, right..
01:24 clkao heh
01:24 svnbot6 r8343 | rafl++ |  r23725@ata:  rafl | 2005-12-19 19:29:47 +0100
01:24 svnbot6 r8343 | rafl++ |  * Use Test::NoWarnings in t/020-JIB-Package.t
01:25 rafl Hm. I always forget to use --lump when pushing lots of changes :-(
01:25 audreyt that's fine, more karma for you
01:25 rafl Is it counted somehow?
01:25 audreyt if I thought --lump should be the default, I'd have made it the default ;)
01:26 * clkao grins
01:26 audreyt it's counted in an intangible fashion :)
01:26 rafl At least my machines load is high enough so the push is pretty slow. So it doesn't kill svnbot6 like the last time..
01:26 clkao it's also viral - people will know what cool version control system you use with this svn repository
01:26 stevan audreyt: take a look at line 467 in http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/perl5/Perl6-Met​aModel/lib/Perl6/MetaModel/Chaos/Unoptimized.pm
01:26 rafl audreyt: How much karma gets me eternal fame?
01:26 audreyt rafl: 1
01:27 clkao when you go there you will change your name and perhaps gender
01:27 rafl How's the karma count initialized?
01:27 clkao s/go/get
01:27 clkao are we nearly there yet?
01:28 audreyt rafl: it's initialized at 1
01:28 audreyt clkao: what's your lexical context? "we"? "there"? ;)
01:28 audreyt stevan: got it, implementing
01:28 stevan audreyt: excellent :)
01:28 clkao that's for the compiler to figure out
01:28 stevan :D
01:28 clkao or prebranching
01:28 audreyt the compiler complains that they are unbound
01:29 clkao that's so 1970
01:29 audreyt stevan: so you can call NEXT_METHOD with different args, right?
01:30 stevan no
01:30 audreyt stevan: and tail call optimization should apply there as well?
01:30 audreyt no?
01:30 stevan I dont think you should be able to
01:30 stevan that was what call() was for
01:30 audreyt why not?
01:30 stevan hmm
01:30 stevan well i guess you should be allowed to
01:30 audreyt after all you can do that for &?SUB
01:31 audreyt seems weird to disallow it for &?NEXT_METHOD
01:31 stevan but it should default to the original @_
01:31 audreyt (also I wonder if we should just rename it to &?NEXT)
01:31 svnbot6 r8344 | Darren_Duncan++ |  r1465@Darren-Duncans-Computer:  darrenduncan | 2005-12-20 17:29:56 -0800
01:31 svnbot6 r8344 | Darren_Duncan++ |  /ext/Rosetta-Incubator : reorganized the DATA TYPES OVERVIEW section of Language.pod to cut on redundancy
01:31 svnbot6 r8343 | rafl++ |  r23725@ata:  rafl | 2005-12-19 19:29:47 +0100
01:31 svnbot6 r8343 | rafl++ |  * Use Test::NoWarnings in t/020-JIB-Package.t
01:31 stevan &?NEXT works too
01:31 audreyt stevan: there is no @_ in minilang
01:31 stevan actually I like that better
01:31 dduncan that was weird
01:31 audreyt and explicit rebound is clearer
01:31 stevan @_ in the abstract sense :)
01:31 rafl Oh no.. merge conflicts. I hate that..
01:32 audreyt k :)
01:32 rafl I always screw something up when merging conflicts. :-(
01:32 clkao gr!
01:32 clkao sorry. using -l is better
01:32 clkao trunk svk has the ability to do sm -IC
01:33 audreyt stevan: I have this weird feeling that &?NEXT can't be written in minilang
01:33 stevan it cant
01:33 stevan it needs to be in haskell
01:33 audreyt but it's weird
01:33 stevan yeah i know
01:33 audreyt because &?SUB is minilang
01:33 stevan ?
01:33 audreyt so is $?CLASS and $?SELF
01:33 audreyt they are perfectly valid first class values
01:33 dduncan sometimes I think that svk skips or merges all sorts of weird things
01:33 kanru has joined #perl6
01:33 stevan can be written in,.. or used in?
01:33 audreyt &?NEXT is something else
01:34 * audreyt thinks about how to define it
01:34 dduncan eg, on my commit it says ...
01:34 dduncan ... t/pil/metamodel.t - skipped
01:34 dduncan but there is no such file in my dir
01:34 audreyt stevan: the problem comes when you want to return &?NEXT outside your scope.
01:34 stevan dduncan: I renamed that
01:34 stevan retun &?NEXT? as in return the sub?
01:34 clkao audreyt: oh, the other thing i wanted to ask you
01:34 audreyt stevan: yeah
01:34 clkao since i am starting to implement stuff for jsbackend in perl6
01:35 stevan that shouldnt be possible I think
01:35 christo has left "Leaving"
01:35 clkao such as hyperoperators. those seems to belong to a common shared prelude
01:35 audreyt stevan: but &?SUB you can carry it out no problem
01:35 stevan yeah
01:35 clkao and individual backend shuld be able to override the default implementation if they have better choise
01:35 stevan maybe this is another special type
01:35 audreyt clkao: hyperops are handled implicitly in the default runcore
01:35 audreyt stevan: maybe it's not. let me think
01:36 clkao i mean the perl5 runcore could well share what i've done
01:36 stevan audreyt: can't &?NEXT just "freeze" the scope it is defined in?
01:36 avar <random thoughts> something like multi sub ncircumfis:<4 a b c d> {} .. for a 5 b 4 c 3 d would be cool
01:36 avar an arbitary number of -fixes ;)
01:37 clkao btw, namespace fix confirmed. hurrah! zzz
01:37 audreyt stevan: yes
01:37 audreyt stevan: and takes the parmlist for the next candidate as its parmlist
01:37 clkao audreyt: it seems default export list is broken
01:37 audreyt clkao: yup. feel free to post it to src/perl6/Prelude/Hyper.pm or something like it
01:38 stevan next canidate?
01:38 audreyt stevan: next in the mro
01:38 stevan yes
01:38 audreyt and if it's empty you don't get a &?NEXT
01:38 stevan can &?NEXT throw an error in that context?
01:38 clkao alright.. i will try to catch you sometime for that, linking the runcore build system etc
01:38 stevan &?NEXT should alwasys be defined I think
01:39 clkao audreyt: modify the test.pl to put plan 1 after 'use Test'
01:39 audreyt stevan: not sure about that... we don't have $?CLASS outside a class
01:39 audreyt clkao: k
01:40 dduncan fyi, my current goal is to have the first runnable version of Rosetta, which at least can create/drop an empty database, by Christmas ... in perl 5 and 6
01:40 audreyt dduncan: ooh, excellent
01:40 stevan I mean always defined in the context of a method body
01:40 clkao normal runcore works, can you see if pil output is sane? so i can see if it's pil2js specified problem
01:40 dduncan today's focus is on design docs ... Language.pod is somewhat analagous to the synopsis
01:41 clkao why isn't -CPIL prettyprint
01:41 dduncan and SQL::Routine is analagous to PIL
01:41 audreyt clkao: I think I know why... fixing
01:42 clkao k cheers
01:42 clkao quick, let me kick the smoke start and go sleep
01:43 dduncan to put that in perspective, audreyt, that milestone is like your pugs 6.0.0 that just ran "hello world"
01:43 dduncan anyway ...
01:43 audreyt dduncan: that is the most important milestone of all :)
01:43 audreyt and 6.0.0 runs "hello world" but not say("hello world")
01:43 dduncan as they say, you don't get anywhere without the first step
01:44 clkao :D
01:44 svnbot6 r8345 | rafl++ |  r23726@ata:  rafl | 2005-12-19 19:32:31 +0100
01:44 svnbot6 r8345 | rafl++ |  * More consistent naming of JIB tests.
01:44 clkao are we nearly there yet?
01:44 audreyt clkao: sure we are! </here-is-a-cookie>
01:45 clkao thank you miss tang! merry christmas!
01:45 svnbot6 r8346 | rafl++ |  r23727@ata:  rafl | 2005-12-19 19:33:34 +0100
01:45 svnbot6 r8346 | rafl++ |  * Remove the error log after testing the error.
01:45 audreyt *smile*
01:45 audreyt clkao: so, gaal's lexical export work broke PIL export completely, yay
01:46 clkao does this translate to it won't get fixed within 18 minutes?
01:46 svnbot6 r8347 | rafl++ |  r23728@ata:  rafl | 2005-12-19 19:48:40 +0100
01:46 svnbot6 r8347 | rafl++ |  * Some POD for JIB.pm.
01:46 audreyt it does. sorry about that
01:46 audreyt will research a fix only after gaal is up and about
01:46 audreyt but!
01:47 audreyt you can apply this single line patch to make it work ;)
01:47 clkao XD
01:47 * clkao reminds me the voodoo fix i did with richardc today
01:47 svnbot6 r8348 | rafl++ |  r23729@ata:  rafl | 2005-12-19 23:26:47 +0100
01:47 svnbot6 r8348 | rafl++ |  JIB::Repository:
01:47 svnbot6 r8348 | rafl++ |   + Added force option to add_package that allows to put a package into a
01:47 svnbot6 r8348 | rafl++ |     repository even if it already exists.
01:47 svnbot6 r8348 | rafl++ |   + Fixed index file generation
01:47 clkao wgr, i am not reminding myself. stupid finger
01:48 clkao oh, do you still update commit/committer graph? :)
01:48 audreyt not really ;)
01:48 audreyt http://perlcabal.org/~autri​jus/tmp/bandaid-clkao.diff
01:48 audreyt cheers
01:49 audreyt that should get your smoke running
01:49 audreyt now to go back to &?NEXT...
01:49 svnbot6 r8349 | rafl++ |  r23730@ata:  rafl | 2005-12-19 23:38:53 +0100
01:49 svnbot6 r8349 | rafl++ |  JIB::Repository: Improved forced add_{package,file}
01:51 svnbot6 r8350 | rafl++ |  r23731@ata:  rafl | 2005-12-19 23:39:22 +0100
01:51 svnbot6 r8350 | rafl++ |  * Added test suite for JIB::Repository
01:52 svnbot6 r8351 | rafl++ |  r23732@ata:  rafl | 2005-12-20 01:41:40 +0100
01:52 svnbot6 r8351 | rafl++ |  JIB: Read the abstract from JIB.pm instead of hard coding it into Makefile.PL
01:55 svnbot6 r8352 | rafl++ |  r23733@ata:  rafl | 2005-12-20 01:43:59 +0100
01:55 svnbot6 r8352 | rafl++ |  * Increased the number of some JIB tests to be able to put some tests before them.
01:57 stevan audreyt: I should have a &?NEXT test for you in a moment
01:57 svnbot6 r8353 | rafl++ |  r23844@ata:  rafl | 2005-12-21 02:39:54 +0100
01:57 svnbot6 r8353 | rafl++ |  JIB::Meta: use JIB::Constants.
01:57 svnbot6 r8352 | rafl++ |  r23733@ata:  rafl | 2005-12-20 01:43:59 +0100
01:57 svnbot6 r8352 | rafl++ |  * Increased the number of some JIB tests to be able to put some tests before them.
01:57 audreyt stevan: good, by then I should have an implementation
01:58 clkao ok, smoke running
01:58 svnbot6 r8354 | rafl++ |  r23845@ata:  rafl | 2005-12-21 02:40:25 +0100
01:58 svnbot6 r8354 | rafl++ |  JIB::Package::Source: Fixed a pod error.
01:58 clkao night all.
01:58 clkao btw
01:59 clkao "are we nearly there yet" where we = Pugs, there = 2 * PI
01:59 audreyt g'nite
01:59 dduncan nite
01:59 audreyt and yes we are, for some value of near and some value of yet :)
02:01 clkao oh, t/subroutines/currying.t last test is broken. was working yesterday
02:01 svnbot6 r8355 | rafl++ |  r23846@ata:  rafl | 2005-12-21 02:40:54 +0100
02:01 svnbot6 r8355 | rafl++ |  JIB: Added pod and (stub) pod coverage tests
02:01 clkao take a look if you have time
02:01 Revision17 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
02:01 clkao *** cannot cast from VList [] to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
02:01 amv 03:58:49 < clkao> ok, smoke running
02:02 amv hmm.. just forget it.
02:02 clkao nvm, it fails on a todo one.
02:03 clkao but fatal
02:03 amv the mouse is quite a har peripheral to use..
02:03 amv +d
02:03 rafl Can someone please run the tests in misc/sixpan/JIB? I'm not sure if my merge was successful.
02:03 audreyt rafl: doing so
02:03 audreyt stevan: implemented
02:05 stevan audreyt: you bet me,.. I am almost done
02:05 svnbot6 r8356 | autrijus++ | * &?NEXT implemented -- untested, unproven, etc.
02:06 dduncan regarding $!, was it ever explicitly decided that this will be an ENV var rather than a global?
02:10 audreyt rafl: still chasing deps
02:10 audreyt dduncan: no.
02:10 audreyt it needs to be written into synopses
02:10 audreyt poke luqui?
02:10 audreyt (or lwall)
02:11 dduncan they're not on this channel now
02:12 audreyt rafl: list deps: Package::Constants and Module::Load::Condiditonal
02:12 audreyt dduncan: yeah, so p6l...
02:12 audreyt rafl: all test pass when I installed P::C and M::L::C
02:18 rafl audreyt: Can you please add the deps you found to Makefile.PL?
02:19 audreyt done
02:20 rafl Thanks!
02:20 clkao gr!
02:20 clkao Preprocessing library Pugs-6.2.10...
02:20 clkao Setup: got error code while preprocessing: Pugs.Embed.Parrot
02:20 svnbot6 r8357 | autrijus++ | 03:18 < rafl> audreyt: Can you please add the deps you found to Makefile.PL?
02:26 alexe has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
02:27 * rafl is about to rewrite smokeserv
02:28 rafl I'd like to send yaml data instead of html files, but the using YAML.pm for deserializing a >3MB YAML dump is fucking slow.
02:28 rafl Is there a faster implementation that's usable from perl somehow?
02:29 audreyt are you versed in SWIG or XS?
02:29 svnbot6 r8358 | stevan++ | t/pil/S12_example.t - &?NEXT -- tested, proven, etc. :)
02:29 audreyt I had for a very long time wanted YAML::Syck
02:29 audreyt there is YAML::Parser::Syck
02:29 audreyt which may be what you want
02:30 stevan audreyt: &?NEXT seems to work :)
02:30 stevan I will start testing more cases
02:30 audreyt good, because it only worked for one level :)
02:31 audreyt I fixed that --- r8359
02:31 rafl audreyt: I know XS pretty well.
02:31 stevan only one level?
02:31 audreyt rafl: ok, in that case, grab latest libsyck and put a SWIG/XS wrapper around it should get you a yaml implementation that works with other languages
02:31 audreyt rafl: you can start with what YAML::Parser::Syck has and gofrom there
02:32 rafl audreyt: YAML::Parser::Syck looks good. Thanks.
02:32 audreyt rafl: it's very long overdue for perl to get a fast yaml implementatnion -- every other language does a syck binding
02:32 audreyt rafl: it maybe sriously outdated.
02:32 audreyt ingyware :)
02:32 rafl ingy: PING :-)
02:32 dduncan okay, I sent a poke about $! to p6l
02:32 svnbot6 r8359 | autrijus++ | * improve &?NEXT support for chained NEXT calls --
02:32 svnbot6 r8359 | autrijus++ |     t/pil/S12_example.t all pass.
02:32 dduncan after confirming what s2 currently says
02:32 audreyt ok
02:32 audreyt dduncan++
02:33 audreyt stevan: it's multilevel now
02:33 audreyt theoretically... until proven  otherwise
02:33 stevan ok,.. I will put some tests together
02:33 audreyt wunderbar
02:33 audreyt anything else you need before roles?
02:34 audreyt if not I can move to containers and autoboxing
02:34 audreyt also, &?NEXT is now completely okay to pass outside methods
02:34 audreyt as it's a self contained closure
02:34 stevan I think that is good
02:34 stevan nice
02:34 audreyt representable in minilang
02:34 audreyt so I'm happy :)
02:34 stevan cool
02:35 audreyt you have to choice of binding &?NEXT to nil or otherwise
02:35 stevan should we load the Bootstrap.pil by default?
02:35 audreyt s/to/the/
02:35 audreyt when there is no &?NEXT, that is
02:35 audreyt I think binding to nil is easier to test than missing symbol
02:36 stevan yes
02:36 stevan you dont like it just failing?
02:37 audreyt it has to be completely constructed for each level of &?NEXT
02:37 audreyt and there needs to be  a way to know whether we are at the end of MRO chain or not, I think
02:37 audreyt so binding to nil trumps binding to something that throws warning
02:37 audreyt as otherwise we would not know if that's actually the next candidate
02:38 audreyt that happens to be throwing exception itself
02:38 audreyt i.e. there'd be no way to distinguish the terminal case with the normal case
02:38 stevan ok
02:39 azuroth has joined #perl6
02:39 audreyt implemented
02:39 azuroth good afternoon
02:39 audreyt greetings azuroth
02:40 audreyt stevan: and yes, once you are happy with B.pil we will load it by default
02:40 svnbot6 r8360 | autrijus++ | * &?NEXT is now bound to nil on the end of MRO chain.
02:40 svnbot6 r8360 | autrijus++ |   (all S12_examples.t tests still pass.)
02:40 audreyt I'd like to see roles before working on container types :)
02:40 audreyt (so that leaves autoboxing for me currently)
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02:41 stevan audreyt: ok, once we have roles we can load it by default
02:42 stevan audreyt: are you going to add any methods other than unboxed to the boxed types?
02:42 audreyt you mean default methods?
02:42 audreyt I don't know, do you think there should be any?
02:42 stevan nope
02:42 audreyt good then.
02:43 stevan I would like those to be in roles
02:43 audreyt we do need .unboxed though
02:43 audreyt because we did away with attr
02:43 audreyt $!val that is
02:43 audreyt but nothing else
02:43 stevan well, we need a way to dispatch to the native methods
02:43 audreyt yes, and I'm more comfortable with .unboxed than $!val
02:43 stevan me too
02:44 audreyt it's strange that we are in almost constant agreement, modulo five minutes here and there :)
02:45 stevan yes, we tend to convince one another when in disagreement
02:45 audreyt :)
02:45 audreyt I'll go find some food... bbl
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02:50 meppl english speaking people speak "autrijus" like "audrey"?
02:50 sili_ a tree juice.
02:50 sili_ mmm mayple.
02:50 audreyt meppl: no, similar, but probably not identical
02:50 meppl k
03:03 meppl i know a american man who calls "fritz kleiner" [fr?ts] [kla?n?r], but the people call him "fred cleaner" [fr?d] [kli?n?r] with english 'r' of course
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03:58 svnbot6 r8361 | stevan++ | t/pil/next.t - check &?NEXT deeper calls & calls with params
03:59 ingy rafl, audreyt: I have been cooking on the YAML Syck stuff.
04:00 rafl ingy: How's the whole rewrite of YAML.pm going?
04:00 ingy there will be 3 YAML implementations soon, all sharing the same API classes: YAML.pm (YAML::Classic) YAML::Lite (Simpler, stabler pure perl) and YAML::Syck
04:01 ingy rafl it is going well
04:01 audreyt where is the code?
04:01 audreyt and more importantly, where can rafl and I jump in?
04:01 rafl And when is 'soon'?
04:01 rafl :-)
04:01 audreyt ingy: and when are you going to taipei so we can chat? :)
04:02 ingy I have basically refactored the current YAML.pm into a new setup and it works.
04:02 ingy once I port the tests I'll release it and we can cobble together YAML::Syck
04:03 ingy the code is in my svn repos
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04:03 ingy and audreyt, maybe this weekend
04:04 audreyt url to your repo again?
04:04 ingy rafl: soon means who knows
04:05 rafl ingy: How's the performance compared with good old YAML.pm?
04:05 audreyt easily 10x ;)
04:05 audreyt ingy: cool -- saturday afternoon I've got a conseling session, but otherwise I'm free
04:06 ingy http://svn.kwiki.org/ingy/YAML-Dev/
04:07 ingy the current performance can be expected to be the same or slightly slower :)
04:07 audreyt rafl: interested in takign YAML::Syck and run with it ? :)
04:07 ingy since it is just a refo
04:07 audreyt (I was referring to Syck's perf vs YAML.pm)
04:09 ingy I have a plan as to how YAML::Syck should be cobbled together, so I don't mind if rafl runs, but it should be on rails ;)
04:10 audreyt lol
04:10 stevan audreyt: ./pil -e '{ "one" => [ 1, 2, 3 ] }' does not work
04:10 ingy fyi, syck == simple yaml cobble-yourself-together-a-parser kit
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04:11 ingy so cobble is the appropriate term
04:11 audreyt stevan: fixing
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04:12 audreyt you can code asif it's fixed :)
04:12 stevan always do :)
04:13 ingy hi stevan
04:13 stevan hey ingy
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04:13 stevan ingy: are you still working on that database idea you had in Toronto?
04:16 ingy stevan: I am working on a database idea called Goodboy :)
04:17 ingy not sure what I talked about in Toronto
04:17 ingy I'm also working on Perldoc and Kwiki-Kwiki
04:17 ingy arrrrrg
04:17 * ingy needs to prioritize
04:17 * stevan knows the feeling
04:18 ingy I just woke up, was planning to work on Kwiki today
04:18 stevan lately pugs always bubbles to the top, and $work sinks to the bottom :)
04:18 ingy now you guys have forced me into working on YAML.pm release
04:19 ingy well and I still have to do 5-8 hours of $work each day
04:19 stevan don't blame me,.. it's audreyt fault :)
04:19 stevan wait,.. you *just* work up?
04:19 ingy but hey, I'm in Taiwan!
04:19 stevan s/work/woke/
04:19 stevan ah
04:19 stevan that makes more sense
04:19 ingy the great island of tuits!
04:20 stevan :)
04:20 * stevan should try to convince his boss to send him to YAPC::tw :P
04:21 stevan I will tell him I can pick up extra tuits
04:21 obra next year, it's yapc::asia in tokyo
04:21 stevan oh
04:21 * stevan has always wanted to stay in a capsule hotel
04:22 ingy actually hcchien is planning a ::tw for after ::jp
04:22 ingy at least that's what I heard in the winds.
04:23 ingy stevan: I actually talked to miyagawa about staying in a capsule but he says I should just sleep in a comic book cafe
04:23 stevan :)
04:23 ingy I think they rent private rooms by the minute afaict
04:23 ingy it's all pretty freaky over here :p
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04:24 stevan short naps would be economical
04:24 ingy in .tw a dollar is 3 cents
04:24 svnbot6 r8362 | autrijus++ | * PIL.Native.Parser: allow arbitrary expressions in NativeMap keys
04:24 svnbot6 r8362 | autrijus++ |   and values.  It's desugared to {}.push() if any of key/value
04:24 svnbot6 r8362 | autrijus++ |   expressions are compound (non-literals), otherwise it's still a
04:24 svnbot6 r8362 | autrijus++ |   literal (thus preserving nested seqs and maps).
04:24 ingy I call .tw dollars, pennies
04:25 ingy which makes it easy
04:25 stevan :D
04:25 ingy a $500 bill is really a $5 bill
04:25 ingy which is *really* a $15 bill
04:26 ingy the $5 coin looks like a nickle
04:26 ingy and to $10 looks like a quarter
04:26 ingy and there is no $25
04:26 audreyt 05:24 < ingy> in .tw a dollar is 3 cents
04:26 * stevan recalls going to East Berlin back in the mid-80s ... now /that/ was a good exchange rate
04:26 audreyt watch for value recursion!
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04:27 audreyt (i.e. "a dollar is 3 cents" implies a cent is 1/3 dollar)
04:27 ingy stevan: so anyway a comic book cafe is $1/minute
04:27 stevan I assume the yen exchange rate is not as good (for americans that is)
04:27 ingy which is roughly $1.80 USD
04:28 audreyt stevan: I think the {...} fix works; the key position is a bit too laz
04:28 audreyt s/laz/lax/
04:28 audreyt which makes {1.add(3) => 4} work
04:28 ingy so $20 would get you a place to crash
04:28 stevan audreyt: it is working for my purposes for now
04:28 audreyt not sure if it's a good thing or not, but anyway it works
04:28 audreyt k
04:28 stevan I am converting the MRO tests
04:29 audreyt TDD++ # tests far more portable than docs
04:29 ingy stevan: yeah I don't know anything about tokyo
04:29 ingy TDD?
04:29 stevan Test Driver Development
04:29 avar Driven?
04:29 stevan yes, that :)
04:30 ingy DDD?
04:30 ingy DDT
04:30 stevan Drug Driven Development?
04:30 audreyt Dungeons, Dragons and Debugging?
04:30 ingy Drug Driven Testing
04:30 audreyt then we just need Development Driven Drugs
04:30 audreyt to complete the cycle
04:30 obra invest in biotech
04:31 ingy or meth labs
04:31 stevan sort of a carrot and the stick idea,.. but with a joint and some kind of lego robot connected to source control
04:31 ingy audreyt: anything for me to do in pugs these days?
04:31 avar Will TDD decrese my TCO and improve by FAT?
04:32 avar (Funny Acronym Ratio)
04:32 avar ;)
04:32 stevan audreyt: I think once I finish the MRO tests I will be ready to start roles
04:33 Skud avar: shirley you mean FAR
04:33 avar raTio ?;)
04:33 rafl ingy: Besides increasing YAML.pm performance so I can write a good new smokeserv? :-)
04:34 audreyt ingy: YAML::Syck definitely
04:34 avar will YAML be a standard perl6 module?
04:34 audreyt but if rafl can handle that... then I'd like a p5 impl of kwid
04:34 avar I hope so, then I can exchange ruby & perl stuff out of the box
04:34 audreyt avar: either that, or builtin
04:35 audreyt it's pugs builtin
04:35 avar audreyt: fucking awsome;)
04:35 avar ;)
04:35 audreyt and is highly likely to be stdlib among p6 implementations if JIB uses it
04:35 avar JIB?
04:35 audreyt still not sure about sqlite
04:36 audreyt JIB is rafl+kane's way of doing a lightweight package manager for perl6 -- because perl6 supports installation of multiple versions and authorities of the same module
04:36 audreyt see docs/AES/S22draft.pod
04:36 audreyt and misc/sixpan/
04:36 stevan I am really starting to like this mini-language,.. who needs Perl 6 :P
04:36 avar yeah, I've read that
04:36 rafl We're not yet sure about what format to use to store the JIB meta information. But YAML is at least very likely if we have a good implementation of it.
04:36 audreyt reputedly it stands for "JIB Is Blamed"
04:37 audreyt because everybody blames package managers
04:37 audreyt stevan: good, because that's going to be pug's assembly (aka PIR) for the forseeable future
04:37 rafl But the docs say "JIB Is Brilliant"!
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04:38 audreyt yeah, I was just glibbing :)
04:39 rafl Since today it's written down somewhere and I can tell people to RTFM instead of asking me ;-)
04:39 audreyt :)
04:41 avar I like blamed
04:41 rafl I wouldn't like it if I were JIB.pm..
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04:42 rafl audreyt: How's the Haskell implementation that's mentioned in YAML.pm's POD going?
04:42 stevan audreyt: did you change the way things are printed?
04:42 svnbot6 r8363 | xgl++ | fixed t/pugsbugs/parsing_do_my.t
04:43 stevan s/printed/pretty printed/
04:43 audreyt stevan: not sure... not intentionally anyway
04:43 audreyt rafl: I went with a syck binding, so that para can go away
04:45 stevan Seqs were printing on a single line, but it seems if the string is very long,.. it wraps each element onto it's own line
04:45 rafl audreyt: para?
04:45 stevan maybe this is something from Text.PrettyPrint
04:46 audreyt raparagraph
04:46 audreyt stevan: it is... if it causs you inconvenience I can disable it
04:46 stevan yes please :)
04:46 stevan it makes it hard to test
04:47 rafl audreyt: Oh, OK. Yet another reason for a new YAML.pm release ;-)
04:50 audreyt stevan: fixed
04:50 stevan audreyt: thanks
04:50 stevan this will complete the MRO test
04:50 stevan so I will start on Roles tomorrow morning
04:51 audreyt yay!
04:51 * audreyt celebrates another milestone in the the long march
04:51 audreyt s/the the/the the the the the/; # really long
04:51 svnbot6 r8364 | autrijus++ | * PIL.Native.Pretty: always prettyprint to one line, to
04:51 svnbot6 r8364 | autrijus++ |   make stevan++'s testing easier.
04:57 svnbot6 r8365 | xgl++ | fixed t/pugsbugs/parsing_do_my.t;
04:57 svnbot6 r8366 | stevan++ | t/pil/* - more &?NEXT tests and a bunch of MRO tests; tomorrow .... we do roles
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05:04 * stevan signs off ... back in 9 hours &
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05:05 * ingy heads off to work on YAML.pm :p
05:07 sili_ mm
05:08 sili_ fix the "or die;" because it confuses me.
05:12 avar or die "Error " ~ int rand 0xdeadbeef;
05:15 gaal g'morning
05:15 xgl midnight here
05:16 gaal g'midnight_there
05:20 gaal oops? pil broke? sorry about that (still backlogging)
05:23 xgl what happened? a bunch of svn updates?
05:24 rafl ingy++
05:27 gaal so, how come it broke?
05:31 audreyt gaal: pil didn't handle lexical export, that's all
05:31 audreyt not really broken, more like... bitrotted
05:32 audreyt in addition to that, to avoid namespace leaking I put (in Pugs.hs) {} around automagic inlining of "use Test" so it becomes "{use Test}" and hence lex symbols won't be exposed -- need some way for inlining _and_ main lexical export to work
05:34 gaal we use Test in Pugs.hs
05:35 gaal ?
05:35 audreyt no, in clkao's test.pl
05:35 audreyt http://home.clkao.org/~clkao/tmp/test.pl
05:36 audreyt but those two are separate bugs
05:36 avar what do you call something that gets more expensive the more data you process (in a non-linear fashion)
05:37 avar I've completely forgotten the word
05:37 xgl resource hog?
05:37 audreyt exponential?
05:37 xgl unscalable?
05:37 azuroth exponential..?
05:37 gaal I really need to get up to speed with PIL: what it implements+where, what needs to be maintained there after "main" runcore changes
05:37 audreyt gaal: I too, and I really need to start blogging about it.
05:38 audreyt or p6c it.
05:38 gaal also, did you see my wonderings about exports of variables?
05:38 audreyt yes I did
05:38 avar audreyt: ah, exponential
05:39 audreyt if it's global vars in the module site, how is it different from sub exports?
05:40 gaal sub decls have a MkCode in the parser
05:40 gaal var decls always MkObject in Eval
05:41 gaal (unless I'm mistaken.)
05:42 gaal also, no word yet from @Larry about it having indeed to be a global...
05:43 gaal ruleVarDeclaration always returns a Pad; reducePad SMy does newObject (err, not MkObject)
05:44 gaal STemp I don't even know what we're supposed to do with
05:44 gaal and (say) SOur... I don't know where the var is allocated :)
05:45 audreyt it's allocated upon runtime entry, not at compiler time
05:45 audreyt I think it should
05:45 audreyt be allocated at compile time, that is
05:46 gaal what func?
05:47 gaal oh i see it
05:47 gaal reduceSym _
05:47 audreyt yeah
05:48 gaal btw please tell me you can't export memebers :-)
05:49 gaal ("has is export")
05:49 gaal # makes no sense
05:50 gaal How does moving variable creation to compile time affect deparate compilation?
05:51 audreyt class is a closure... exporting per-closure-entry stuff generally makes no sense
05:51 gaal s/dep/sep/
05:51 audreyt it shouldn't affect it. each var should be serializable
05:51 audreyt also, I think SGlobal vars are already created upon parsing if I'm not mistaken
05:52 gaal I don't see code for that by vgrep
05:52 audreyt actually I think they all are... into Pad
05:52 audreyt in unsafeEvalLexDiff line 693
05:52 audreyt it's just Pad gets refreshed by Eval if it's SMy
05:56 gaal I don't understand how that doesn't get run many times in the chained case. This function is weird.
05:56 gaal ...(sym, expMaybe) <- option... recurses
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05:57 gaal so the innermost element would be created several times, no?
05:57 audreyt it might... the chained case is I think very broken...
05:59 gaal ok, so ignoring it for a moment.
05:59 audreyt yup.
05:59 gaal lexDiff contains a bunch of transformers that already reference created memory?
05:59 gaal well, created vars
06:00 gaal I'm not sure it does, because I put in a trace and it showed me MkPad [] or soemthing similar
06:00 gaal ah, i still have the print
06:00 gaal MkPad (padToList [])
06:01 gaal this was for a simple "my $var is export"
06:01 gaal oops, "our"
06:02 audreyt "our" creates no lexDiff
06:02 audreyt it just installs the symbol
06:03 gaal hmmm right
06:03 audreyt (which, btw, is broken as well -- it should install a lex alias)
06:03 gaal really? wow
06:03 gaal why? performance?
06:03 audreyt no, just so this can work
06:03 audreyt package Foo; our $blah; package Bar; say $blah;
06:03 audreyt which is part of p5 and p6 spec, weird as it may seem.
06:04 audreyt so maybe the correct fix is to make our install the lex alias
06:04 audreyt and then export that lex alias in lexdiff.
06:04 audreyt maybe. I'm not exactly sure
06:04 gaal I know how it's part of p5
06:04 audreyt (and did I mention I was about to get food? turned out I didn't and it's been for hours :))
06:04 gaal but in p6, doesn't package X mean package X { } ?
06:04 gaal ok in the "my" case this looks good:
06:04 gaal MkPad (padToList [("$v",[(<ref>,<ref>)])])
06:04 audreyt it means {} for closure purposes
06:04 audreyt but still it shares a pad with outer
06:05 audreyt it's very weird and very special case.
06:05 audreyt I'm not sure if it's worth keeping anyway... but that's for p6l to decide
06:05 audreyt I think the Syn still preservs the behaviour
06:05 gaal okay, you get food, i go earn food
06:05 audreyt okay :) sorry I didn't help much
06:06 gaal you helped clarify a lot! :)
06:06 gaal but this stuff's a little harder than it looks.
06:06 audreyt indeed
06:07 audreyt food &
06:07 gaal bon mousse :)
06:07 audreyt :)
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06:34 GeJ greetings all
06:34 xgl greetings
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07:55 dduncan question ... what is the Perl 6 way of indicating a weak reference?
07:56 dduncan eg, if $foo and $bar each contain a reference to the other, one is weak so they can autodestruct
07:56 dduncan in perl 5 you use Scalar::Util::weaken() to do what I want
08:01 Khisanth my $foo isa wimp; :P
08:01 jp-autark isn't a real GC going to fix that?
08:02 Khisanth hmm yes
08:03 Khisanth since ther would be not ref to count :)
08:03 Khisanth d'oh, there and no
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09:36 * gaal is in a maze of nested namespaces, all differently scoped
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10:01 clkao Preprocessing library Pugs-6.2.10...
10:01 clkao Setup: got error code while preprocessing: Pugs.Embed.Parrot
10:01 clkao Build failed: 256 at util/build_pugs.pl line 86.
10:01 clkao gr?
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10:03 masak hm
10:03 masak t/builtins/math/NaN.t says "plan 2" and then contains 5 tests
10:03 masak is that really correct?
10:03 masak should i change it?
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10:11 gaal masak: please do
10:11 * masak changes it
10:14 svnbot6 r8367 | masak++ | number of tests planned should be 5, not 2, in t/builtins/math/NaN.t
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11:01 masak can I rewrite this line
11:01 masak $arg = defined($ctl[$CTL_DEFAULT]) ?? $ctl[$CTL_DEFAULT] !! 0;
11:01 masak as
11:01 masak $arg = $ctl[$CTL_DEFAULT] // 0;
11:01 masak in perl6?
11:02 rafl It would be $ctrl[$CTRL_DEFAULT] || 0 in p5 as well as in p6.
11:02 rafl Whops. I didn't see the defined.
11:03 rafl Yes, // is ought to work in perl6.
11:03 masak rafl: good. thx
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11:09 gaal masak: // works in pugs.
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12:07 meppl guten morgen
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13:53 wolverian hm, why does svk ci also push?
13:56 audreyt because you operate it on a mirror path instead of a local branch
13:56 wolverian oh. can it not do that for a mirror, or do I just branch?
13:58 audreyt just branch.
13:58 audreyt svk cp -m 'branch' //mirror/pugs //pugs
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13:58 audreyt mirrors are by definition mirrors
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14:08 * audreyt goes sleeping... &
14:09 wolverian audreyt, thanks!
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15:19 svnbot6 r8368 | iblech++ | Usual svn props for all this new files :) (t/pil, src/PIL, src/Data)
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16:00 Qiang is there a roadmap on where Pugs is going ? where is pugs now ?
16:05 kane-xs over at pugscode.org
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16:06 svnbot6 r8369 | kane++ |  r580@coke:  kane | 2005-12-21 16:58:45 +0100
16:06 svnbot6 r8369 | kane++ |  * Add JIB::Dependency + tests
16:06 svnbot6 r8369 | kane++ |  * Make JIB::Meta hold a JIB::Dependency
16:06 svnbot6 r8369 | kane++ |  * rename some test files
16:06 svnbot6 r8369 | kane++ |  * add more test packages/meta.infos under t/src
16:30 svnbot6 r8370 | kane++ |  r625@coke:  kane | 2005-12-21 17:27:59 +0100
16:30 svnbot6 r8370 | kane++ |  * oops, forgot to add Dependency.pm
16:30 svnbot6 r8370 | kane++ |  * move config test to 003
16:34 webmind errors are rewarded? ;)
16:34 * theorbtwo is having container/value problems with the sentance "The Pugs project was started on February 1st, 2005 by Audrey Tang."
16:35 wolverian 'sentence' :)
16:35 webmind theorbtwo, hmmm
16:35 webmind understandable
16:36 webmind rewriting history
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16:54 * gaal doesn't see the problem?
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16:54 integral no problem if history is under version control
16:55 stevan anyone know if there is a limit with the runInteractiveCommand function in pugs?
16:56 stevan I am seeing this *** /bin/sh: runInteractiveCommand: resource exhausted (Resource temporarily unavailable)
16:56 stevan not sure if this is pugs ,.. or me
16:59 stevan oh well,.. I will look closer after lunch
16:59 * stevan food &
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17:03 gaal I still don't see the problem. That is a simple proposition, and it happens to be true as well.
17:04 theorbtwo But on feb 1st, it was Autrijus Tang who started the Pugs project.
17:05 gaal "I started writing this sentence at 19:04, IST" is also a simple proposition that happens to be true.
17:05 gaal Ahhhh, OK.
17:05 gaal Well, this has been addressed by theories of reference.
17:06 gaal I forget who it was that made the point about referential failures.
17:06 theorbtwo Thus my original statement -- that I am having container/value problems.
17:06 gaal Suppose I say to you "see that guy drinking gin over at the bar?"
17:07 gaal (and he happens to in fact be drinking ouzo)
17:07 theorbtwo Hmm...?
17:07 gaal we may have been referring successfully to the same person.
17:07 Smari gaal: Couldn't you clobber that with a fuzzy predicate?
17:08 theorbtwo The question is more if "Last week, the guy over by the bar drinking ouzo killed a man in Reno."
17:08 gaal Smari: what do you mean clobber? Could I have gone and said, "see that guy drinking a clear liquid at the bar?"
17:09 theorbtwo Now, assuming we aren't in Reno, could that sentance possibly be correct?
17:09 Smari gaal: Assume a truth value due to high probability.
17:09 gaal Sure I could have, but people communicate effectively w/o hedges like that all the time.
17:09 theorbtwo I would you have to say "...the guy who is now over by the bar..."
17:09 Smari Alas, I found out 10 minutes ago that I couldn't take a course in symbolic logic next term, because it clashes with a manditory course in metric space theory. Blehrg.
17:09 gaal Smari: I don't think probabilities need enter the picture.
17:10 Smari gaal: Aye, that's true.
17:10 theorbtwo s/I would you/Or would you/
17:11 Smari theorbtwo: Wouldn't current time be asumed?
17:11 gaal theorbtwo: most metaphysics worth their salt can deal with name changes. If not, consider it a good reason to change metaphysics. :)
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17:12 gaal "George Orwell wrote _1984_ in 1948"
17:13 gaal It isn't his real name. And even if he took the alias *after* 1948, it would be reasonable to call that proposition true.
17:22 theorbtwo I was unaware that George Orwell was a pen name.
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17:25 Smari theorbtwo: His real name was Eric Arthur Blair IIRC
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17:42 stevan gaal: ping
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18:10 stevan gaal: cancel ping :)
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18:18 svnbot6 r8371 | stevan++ | PIL/Native/Bootstrap.pil
18:18 svnbot6 r8371 | stevan++ | - skeleton for Roles and Role system bootstrapping (no implementation)
18:18 svnbot6 r8371 | stevan++ | t/pil/MRO.t & t/pil/bootstrap.t
18:18 svnbot6 r8371 | stevan++ | - added some basic tests for ::Role, moved other tests around
18:18 svnbot6 r8371 | stevan++ | Test::PIL::Bootstrap
18:18 svnbot6 r8371 | stevan++ | - added explicit :r flag to Pipe::open call, didn't help though :/
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18:26 clkao why oh why oh why the smoke run is not working, but direct invocation works for jsperl5
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19:08 rafl nothingmuch: ping
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19:36 nothingmuch rafl: pong
19:37 rafl nothingmuch: See #catalyst
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21:23 gaal stevan: pong but false
21:27 stevan gaal: :)
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22:03 dduncan audreyt, the openfoundry is off again
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23:53 audreyt dduncan: yes, expect it to be back within 1~2hrs
23:53 * audreyt backlogs
23:53 Eimi has quit IRC ("Leaving")
23:53 audreyt mm, antiping packets
23:54 clkao audreyt!!
23:54 clkao 21 hours to my flight
23:55 audreyt theorbtwo: valid reference frames assumes dynamic scoping, as gaal demonstrated
23:55 audreyt theorbtwo: so it's not lexical but depends on the env frame carried by the caller (you)
23:55 audreyt which is true as no document canlexically determine the extent of all its references
23:55 audreyt clkao: congrats!
23:56 clkao 38 hours to be sit in hotsprings
23:56 audreyt woot

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