Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-12-22

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:04 dduncan ok
00:08 audreyt theorbtwo: in addition to that, if we are to reset environmental bindings based on the temporal constraint, we wouldn't be able to talk about ancient history (or even astronomy) with terms (re)defined in modern times...
00:08 theorbtwo Hm, I see your point.
00:10 theorbtwo Well, points.
00:10 audreyt :)
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00:59 dduncan fyi, I'm now come to the time that I need 'trusts' to work, especially now that private attrs are actually private
00:59 dduncan since there doesn't seem to be a test for trusts, I'll make one now
00:59 audreyt good!
01:00 audreyt stevan_: we need to figure out how to make "trusts" work in minilang
01:00 dduncan would it be possible to implement trusts today?
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01:00 dduncan if not, then my perl 6 stuff won't run by christmas like I want, without hackery
01:00 audreyt dduncan: I'll see your test first before deciding :)
01:01 dduncan its very simple
01:01 dduncan two classes
01:01 dduncan class A declares $!foo, and no accessor method
01:01 dduncan class B needs to see and/or modify $!foo on any A objects it has
01:02 dduncan class A declares that it trusts class B
01:02 dduncan so that should work
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01:02 audreyt ok
01:03 dduncan and it needs to work for any other kind of private attr, like a @!bar or %!baz
01:03 audreyt so the syntax would be
01:04 audreyt $!a!foo = 5
01:04 audreyt or something like that?
01:04 audreyt or just $!a!foo
01:04 dduncan the syntax would be like a class A object modifying another class A object
01:04 audreyt I need to see the test :)
01:04 audreyt nopaste it?
01:04 dduncan eg, $other_obj!foo
01:05 dduncan will do if server down
01:05 dduncan should be written within a half hour
01:11 audreyt my Class $obj .= new;
01:11 audreyt hmm
01:11 audreyt my Class $obj != new;
01:11 audreyt # doesn't make sense
01:11 wolverian ow, isn't that ambiguous?
01:14 audreyt probably not... we can just rule out the != form and declare it to be  always infix
01:14 audreyt infix unequals, that is
01:14 audreyt pugs currently handles it that way anyway
01:15 audreyt dduncan: I've kluged so it works.
01:16 audreyt a proper fix awaits minilang integration
01:16 audreyt dduncan: care to apply this patch locally?
01:17 audreyt http://perlcabal.org/~autrij​us/tmp/bangKlugeTrusts.diff
01:19 dduncan give me a few minutes
01:19 dduncan but before I apply the patch, I'll give you my test so that you can see that it works for you
01:19 dduncan its almost done
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01:32 stevan_ audreyt: ping
01:33 pasteling "dduncan" at 24.108.164.7 pasted "first draft of t/oo/trusts.t" (46 lines, 878B) at http://sial.org/pbot/15091
01:34 audreyt stevan_: pong
01:34 stevan_ audreyt: there is no concept of private in the metamodel currently
01:34 audreyt dduncan: all tests pass here
01:35 dduncan and they fail here without the patch ... will try with it
01:35 stevan_ I have been punting on this because it has been in a state of flux with @Larry
01:35 audreyt stevan_: I think it's now reasonably clear
01:35 audreyt as per latest s12
01:35 * stevan_ goes to take a look
01:36 stevan_ I have been out of the loop with p6l because of $work
01:36 audreyt nodnod
01:36 stevan_ where is the latest?
01:36 dduncan fyi, I will expand trusts.t to use a third class C, which tries to do the same things B did, and should fail due to not being trusted ... to check that your patch doesn't open to everyone
01:36 stevan_ I found ti
01:37 audreyt stevan_: the cpan bible is also updated
01:37 stevan_ http://svn.perl.org/perl6/d​oc/trunk/design/syn/S12.pod I would assume is the most up to date
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01:41 stevan_ is openfoundry still down?
01:42 audreyt yeah, but about to be up
01:42 stevan_ ok
01:42 stevan_ is now known as stevan
01:42 audreyt (reasonable guess, as it's 9:42am here)
01:42 audreyt http://pause.cpan.org/incom​ing/Perl6-Bible-0.23.tar.gz
01:42 audreyt just uploaded this
01:44 audreyt brb
01:44 stevan I think $Larry[0] is on crack
01:44 clkao XD
01:44 stevan you can't easily mix two object models
01:44 audreyt I think it's blue sugar cubes
01:44 stevan prototype and class based
01:44 stevan :)
01:45 stevan *sigh*
01:45 audreyt I thought minilang is fairly proto based
01:45 audreyt since we clone class's attrs
01:45 stevan no, it is a classic class based approach ala CLOS/Smalltalk
01:46 stevan prototype based means no classes,..
01:46 stevan at all
01:46 stevan see the MiniPrototype model in Perl6-MetaModel
01:46 audreyt right
01:46 audreyt but from what I gather on p6l, what's important is not the underlying calculus
01:46 stevan its how the user can use it?
01:46 audreyt yes
01:47 audreyt "prototype" to $Larry is probably "eigenclass that does not inherit from class"
01:47 stevan yeah
01:47 audreyt which is fine in minilang
01:48 stevan I still think he is eating too many blue sugar cubes :)
01:48 stevan my biggest concern with the prototype thing
01:48 stevan is that it is very difficult with prototype based models to do MI effectively
01:48 stevan they are typically (at least in my experience) SI models
01:49 stevan MI in prototypes tends to look too much like mix-in hell
01:49 * stevan wrote a mix-in function in JS once,.. it was ... >>shudder<< horrible
01:49 audreyt I think it's reasonable to think that if you want MI and @superclasses
01:49 audreyt then you are using the class-based architecture starting with ::Class.
01:49 audreyt I can't see much alternatives.
01:49 stevan yes
01:49 stevan I think you are right re: eigenclasses
01:50 stevan you can mimic most of the useful parts of prototype models with that
01:50 audreyt yup
01:50 * stevan started with JS, so he has been bitten many times by prototype models
01:50 stevan I am not as wide eyed as all the JSAN crew
01:51 audreyt mm, right, one of which orks cow with you :)
01:51 stevan :)
01:51 stevan yup
01:51 stevan however, I do think we can easily create a prototype based model in the mini-lang following the MiniPrototype model
01:52 stevan I stole it from Oleg anyway,.. the scheme version was pure :)
01:52 stevan in fact, it would probably be best built on top of the current metamodel
01:53 stevan we can emulate a p5 model that way too
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01:53 audreyt yup
01:53 * stevan has decided to look upon the mini-lang metamodel like the Parrot metamodel
01:53 stevan one metamodel to implement them all!
01:53 * audreyt praises Oleg for crazy^Winspired brilliance
01:54 stevan oleg++ :)
01:55 stevan so lexical methods are how we are doing private methods now?
01:56 audreyt yes
01:56 audreyt and they live in a space unchartered by %methods
01:56 stevan yup
01:56 audreyt they are essentially another subspace
01:56 stevan %private_methods
01:57 audreyt yup
01:57 stevan a slight change in the dispatcher should be able to handle them
01:57 stevan I think we should add *_private_method methods
01:58 stevan it seems like code duplication, but I think it will make it easier to construct classes
01:58 audreyt I concur
01:58 audreyt but roles first
01:58 audreyt :)
01:58 stevan dammit,.. stop agreeing with me :P
01:58 audreyt no, I won't!
01:59 stevan we should stage a mock fight,.. just to stir things up
01:59 audreyt Test::MockFight
01:59 stevan :D
01:59 stevan so with roles
01:59 stevan I am currently blocked on the best way to do collect_all_roles
01:59 stevan it needs to recursively gather a list of unique roles
02:00 audreyt and why could you not use a lexical state aka $counter?
02:00 audreyt or do you need .clone natively?
02:00 * stevan was trying to be good,... pure ,..... functional :P
02:00 audreyt "generating unique" is not a functional thing to do :)
02:01 audreyt unless we distribute the pad with an infinite support of uniques
02:01 audreyt which wouldn't work anyway across compilations
02:01 audreyt so just use a lexical state :)
02:01 audreyt at least it's not global state ;)
02:01 stevan ok
02:02 audreyt and in fact nothing in minilang is global
02:02 audreyt I need to run to $job in a bit
02:02 audreyt see you in ~8hrs
02:02 stevan ok, I only have a little more time until @parents arrive anyway,...
02:03 * audreyt allocs two days per week for $job and three for $pugs
02:03 stevan I will finish S12 and do Roles late-tonight/tommorow
02:03 audreyt cool!
02:03 audreyt stevan++
02:03 * stevan allocs as much as possible for $pugs and delegates $job to <other employee>
02:03 audreyt lol
02:03 stevan :)
02:03 audreyt $job is fun though, I get to play with Jifty, which rocks more by day
02:04 stevan yeah I have been keeping an eye on that
02:04 * audreyt thinks Jifty should be ported to p6 some day
02:04 pasteling "dduncan" at 24.108.164.7 pasted "second draft of t/oo/trusts.t - catches errors, tests expected failures" (113 lines, 2.8K) at http://sial.org/pbot/15092
02:04 dduncan audreyt, this should be a more rigorous test
02:04 audreyt dduncan: good
02:05 audreyt please commit it once the repo is back
02:05 dduncan and it also traps errors to say ok/not regardless of failures
02:05 audreyt I'll bbl
02:05 audreyt nodnod
02:05 dduncan will do
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02:05 stevan enjoy $work
02:05 dduncan I will now apply your patch and see what affect it has
02:06 * stevan is starting to like S12 the more he reads it
02:06 audreyt stevan: good, I think it's sane and we should sync to that page :)
02:06 stevan the '.' means autogenerate accessors is a nice approach
02:07 audreyt and it's the first time I think will form a solidish semantic basis
02:07 audreyt prior to that is' almost all handwaving on semantics layer
02:07 stevan audreyt: I am mentally desugaring a lot of this stuff
02:07 stevan yes I agree (on both points)
02:08 dduncan hmm, it appears is_deeply may be backwards regarding its args
02:08 stevan but so far I think everything can be constructed with the current model,..
02:08 stevan and if I find something that can't I will figure it ou
02:08 stevan t
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02:10 dduncan seems that is() has the arg order [got, wanted], while is_deeply is [wanted, got]
02:10 dduncan is that reversal intentional?
02:10 dduncan talking about Test.pm
02:11 audreyt probably not, fixes welcome
02:11 audreyt I gotta run... &
02:11 dduncan will do ... will reverse is_deeply
02:12 stevan S12/Attributes++ # finally some real clarity on the subject :)
02:12 dduncan since  $var == $literal is the more common order
02:12 stevan dduncan: I am sure it is not intentional
02:12 stevan feel free to change it
02:12 dduncan will do
02:12 stevan consistency is always a good thing
02:15 dduncan of course, what takes the cake is that the Test.pm docs disagree with its code on this matter
02:15 dduncan the code is incorrect, docs correct
02:15 dduncan will fix code
02:16 clkao are synopsis in svn?
02:17 stevan clkao: yes, svn.perl.org/perl6/
02:39 dduncan hey, the server's back up ... and just in time!
02:39 svnbot6 r8372 | stevan++ | - Moved all of t/pil/* tests related to the metamodel to t/pil/metamodel/
02:39 svnbot6 r8372 | stevan++ | - removed t/pil/wanted_features.t, as I no longer want those features :)
02:39 svnbot6 r8372 | stevan++ | PIL/Native/Bootstrap.pil
02:39 svnbot6 r8372 | stevan++ | - simplified some Role bootstrap code (please ignore the commented out hacks)
02:39 svnbot6 r8372 | stevan++ | - added new S12 NOTE annotations to indicate things to think about in light
02:39 svnbot6 r8372 | stevan++ |   of the new version of S12
02:39 dduncan I can commit directly and no merging
02:45 dduncan now just pushed the Test.pm fix
02:45 svnbot6 r8373 | Darren_Duncan++ |  r1502@Darren-Duncans-Computer:  darrenduncan | 2005-12-21 18:42:52 -0800
02:45 svnbot6 r8373 | Darren_Duncan++ |  /ext/Text : updated Test.pm to fix the arg order of is_deeply() so it matches its own docs, is consistent with other funcs; also removed all trailing whitespace in file
02:45 dduncan er, s/x/s/
02:53 dduncan pushed trusts.t
02:53 svnbot6 r8374 | Darren_Duncan++ |  r1504@Darren-Duncans-Computer:  darrenduncan | 2005-12-21 18:51:47 -0800
02:53 svnbot6 r8374 | Darren_Duncan++ |  added new test t/oo/trusts.t so a class trusted by another to see its privates is in fact able to, but no one else can
03:00 * theorbtwo wonders if there's also a "friends with benifits" trust level.
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03:13 clkao audreyt: do i still need the bandaid?
03:19 dduncan audreyt, your patch did have an effect, but it isn't sufficient
03:20 dduncan but now you have the committed test to work with
03:22 dduncan you can also tell me if my test is faulty
03:23 dduncan most of it relies on pugs dying when it can't see/set an attr, and not dying when it can
03:26 audreyt dduncan: my patch is not sufficient; it relaxes things too much
03:26 audreyt I'll revisit
03:26 audreyt but for now it should make your code work
03:26 audreyt clkao: you do, will revisit, but not today
03:27 audreyt &
03:27 svnbot6 r8375 | autrijus++ | * Kluge $obj!method so it can serve as an lvalue in a
03:27 svnbot6 r8375 | autrijus++ |   trusted class -- it's currently to lax, will revisit.
03:42 dduncan I'll let you know if anything in my actual code doesn't work, within a few hours
03:44 dduncan but if the test is to be taken at face value, the lvalues work, but not rvalues
03:45 dduncan will know soon if that actually affects me
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05:12 Alias_ audreyt: ping?
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05:17 audreyt Alias_: pong? (@ work)
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10:14 dduncan but I can check back tomorrow
10:15 dduncan it would probably help if there was something in /examples that demonstrated both creating and parsing yaml
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10:20 luqui hey, how do I get the JS backend to see the modules in lib/
10:21 luqui i.e. I'm testing Parse::Rule and it's just saying "Can't locate Parse in @*INC..."
10:21 audreyt dduncan: we'll hack emitting support this weekend
10:22 dduncan allo
10:22 dduncan thank you
10:23 dduncan that should allow me to actually follow the suggestion of using YAML as Rosetta::Engine::Native's file format
10:23 audreyt luqui: at this moment you need to put "use Parse::Rule" in the test file
10:23 audreyt and set $ENV{PERL6LIB}
10:23 audreyt dduncan: cool
10:23 luqui okay, the latter was what I needed
10:24 dduncan and now I will to bed, as it is 2:24am
10:24 audreyt good night
10:24 audreyt off $job &
10:27 dduncan fyi, in the near future I'll probably update Locale::KeyedText so it can use YAML as a template file format option as well
10:27 dduncan but it is not urgent
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10:48 svnbot6 r8382 | luqui++ | Hopefully wrote the quantify combinator.  Pugs is being a bitch and keeping me from testing it.
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11:11 amv umh.. so what is all the talk about javascript? is there a location where i could read more about what you are doing?
11:17 * theorbtwo is also rather wondering this.
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11:27 GeJ TaPL arrived, I will finally be able to understand what you guys are talking about :)
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11:31 gaal audreyt: re: lexical alias for each "our" var: how would that work in the case of a "real" lexical with the same basename already existing?
11:32 gaal (what's a good name for "our" vars nowadays, anyway? not globals, not package vars...?)
11:32 theorbtwo "our" vars?
11:32 theorbtwo Lexically visible globals is the 3-dollar phrase.
11:32 gaal theorbtwo: our $var
11:32 theorbtwo Yeah, I know.  I'd call them '"our" vars'.
11:33 gaal they aren't quite global though.
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11:33 gaal what does the phrase "3-dollar phrase" mean? :)
11:34 gaal like, poor man's million-dollar phrase? :)
11:34 theorbtwo They're as global as any other sort of global in perl.
11:34 theorbtwo package x; {our $foo=3;} print $x::foo;
11:36 gaal less global than stuff in *.
11:36 theorbtwo Are we talking p5 now, or p6?
11:36 gaal 6
11:36 theorbtwo Oh.
11:37 theorbtwo Nevermind, though.
11:37 theorbtwo Hm, no, continuemind.
11:37 theorbtwo What is $x::foo called then?
11:37 gaal fully qualified _ _.
11:39 gaal our vars (1) don't close and (2) can be accessed w/o symbol table lookup even outside the namespace where they were defined.
11:39 gaal because of sense 2 they can be considered globa..
11:40 gaal but 1 is an important distinctive feature, so i'm looking for the phrase to make that distinction.
11:44 theorbtwo I think 1 is best thought of a side-effect of 2.
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11:45 theorbtwo In order for closure to happen, there has to be more then one variable with the same name.
11:45 theorbtwo Coderefs get the one that's in scope at the time.
11:45 svnbot6 r8383 | kane++ | * make the installation dir a constant for tests
11:45 svnbot6 r8383 | kane++ |     * and remove it from Config.pm
11:45 svnbot6 r8383 | kane++ | * make JIB::Installation set up the proper files if needed
11:45 svnbot6 r8383 | kane++ |     * so conf.pl doesn't have to anymore
11:45 svnbot6 r8383 | kane++ | * tentatively add JIB::Repository::Set
11:45 svnbot6 r8383 | kane++ | * add more constants
11:45 svnbot6 r8383 | kane++ | * first addition of list_dependencies
11:46 svnbot6 r8383 | kane++ | * add some more constants
11:46 svnbot6 r8383 | kane++ | * add a bit of pod
11:46 svnbot6 r8383 | kane++ | * add more tests for 020.t
11:46 theorbtwo With globals, there is only one variable by that name.
11:46 gaal ~2 certainly doesn't cause ~1, though hopefully 2 implies 1 :-)
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12:27 svnbot6 r8384 | kane++ | * add a testcover target to Makefile.PL
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13:13 rafl Good morning kane_
13:14 rafl What does JIB::Repo::Set do? (I don't have my hacking box handy)
13:16 kane_ rafl: nothign yet
13:16 svnbot6 r8385 | kane++ | * change name of included tarballs from .tar.gz to .tgz
13:16 kane_ rafl: hi btw
13:16 kane_ i had an idea, then that idea didn't work
13:17 kane_ rafl: but we need a way to define sets (as people can have more than one installation, use more than one repo, etc)
13:17 theorbtwo For that matter, what is JIB?
13:18 kane_ JIB Is Brilliant
13:18 rafl kane_: I would not put that into JIB::Repo.
13:19 kane_ rafl: yeah, if we keep Repository for the physical location things get stored, that makes sense.. but we need something that is our equivalent of apt/sources.list and manages that
13:19 rafl kane_: How about JIB::Package::Installable or something like that, that abstracts a package inside a repository and reads the repo uris from a config file?
13:19 kane_ rafl: my thought too :) but we still need a governing class and a set
13:19 kane_ might be JIB::Installable, and JIB::Installable::Set
13:20 theorbtwo You should probably make that a sources.list.d
13:20 kane_ theorbtwo: mm?
13:20 rafl theorbtwo: Even multiple ones. A system wide, a user wide, etc.
13:20 kane_ theorbtwo: ah.. this wans't an implemenentation suggestion, but a common terminology :)
13:22 rafl kane_: I don't understand what the Set is needed for?
13:23 kane_ to describe a group
13:23 kane_ right now, our installation is 1 dir
13:23 kane_ but if youc ompare that to @INC, that's not accurate
13:23 kane_ we'd have a group of dirs
13:23 kane_ hrmpf
13:23 kane_ so, what do you do when you accidentally delete your .svn dir?
13:24 rafl I would not care because I use svk :-)
13:24 kane_ right, now assume i'm stuck with svn on this box because svk isn't playing nicely
13:24 kane_ /then/ what to do?
13:24 rafl Maybe check out a new copy and merge your changes between this and your modified copy.
13:25 * kane_ grumbles
13:26 audreyt "svn up" will fix it
13:26 audreyt with luck
13:26 audreyt in the parent dir
13:26 kane_ [kane@myriad ~...JIB/t]$ svn up
13:26 kane_ svn: Working copy 'src' not locked
13:26 rafl kane_: I still understand what the Set has to do. A Set for multiple versions/authorities/.. of one module?
13:27 kane_ rafl: @INC would be a 'set'
13:27 kane_ because it's a set of directories
13:27 kane_ just like mutliple repositories would be a 'set'
13:27 theorbtwo But, um, @INC is ordered.
13:27 audreyt kane_: rm -rf src and then svn up
13:27 kane_ k
13:27 kane_ theorbtwo: yes, so?
13:27 audreyt @INC would be an ordered set
13:27 theorbtwo Aren't sets unordered?
13:28 kane_ audreyt, thanks that worked
13:28 audreyt sets may be totally, or partially, ordered
13:28 kane_ theorbtwo: mathmatical sets might not be
13:28 kane_ but this one would be
13:28 audreyt if my math hadn't failed me
13:28 rafl kane_: Why not an ordered list?
13:28 kane_ i just said 'ordered list'....
13:28 theorbtwo OK, sorry for bringing it up.
13:29 kane_ i think we just got a few things confused here
13:30 * rafl agrees
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13:32 kane_ 'set' 'group', 'list', 'congregation', 'heap', 'bunch', 'stack' -- all fine names in this context
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13:43 svnbot6 r8386 | audreyt++ | * PIL.Native: Autoboxing support for every native type,
13:43 svnbot6 r8386 | audreyt++ |   with builtin autoboxed classes that has ".unbox" as
13:43 svnbot6 r8386 | audreyt++ |   their only method:
13:43 svnbot6 r8386 | audreyt++ |     "::Bit ::Int ::Num ::Str ::Seq ::Map ::Sub"
13:45 audreyt what about "Laminated Lattice" or "Cobordant Manifold"?
14:22 kane_ i hate svn
14:22 kane_ in fact, i hate all vcs
14:22 kane_ so i did an svn delete and an svn add again of the same file
14:23 gaal Laminated Lettuce and Cabbage Manifold?
14:23 kane_ now it insists teh file doesn't exist.. although when looking at it, it does, and svn claims it's under vcs
14:23 kane_ except, it won't let me commit
14:23 theorbtwo "Won't let me" as in?
14:23 kane_ File not found: transaction '8386-1', path '/misc/sixpan/JIB/t/src/p5-complicated-deps/_jib'
14:24 kane_ it's doing that for all flies i've deleted, and re-added with different content
14:24 theorbtwo That's, um, interesting.
14:24 * kane_ suggests the words 'fucked up'
14:24 theorbtwo That works too.
14:24 theorbtwo Have you done an "svn up"?
14:25 kane_ yeah.. i'm juggling files now
14:25 kane_ moving them away, updating, moving them back, etc
14:26 kane_ i positively hate applications that litter files in my working directories
14:26 avar not really a perl6 q, but do you have an idea of how to make HTML::Parser report the content of a tag I extract, using http://avar.pastebin.com/475069 currently
14:26 avar I can use text_h, but I want to know the element and its attributes too
14:29 svnbot6 r8387 | kane++ | * add a repo.pl and pkg.pl include script for tests
14:29 svnbot6 r8387 | kane++ |     * remove some hardcoded paths in favor of what these scripts return
14:29 svnbot6 r8387 | kane++ | * add all test packages from prototype
14:29 svnbot6 r8387 | kane++ | * fix typo in repository.pm
14:29 svnbot6 r8387 | kane++ | * exclude .svn dirs hardcoded in jib::source # XXX fixme
14:29 svnbot6 r8387 | kane++ | * add some docs
14:29 avar mm, I'll just ask some more in #perl
14:33 audreyt kane_: svk fixed all these problems and then some... are you on OSX?
14:33 kane_ audreyt: yeah, but on 10.3.9 -- svk.dmg doesn't work there
14:33 kane_ and grabbing it from cpan made my computer unhappy
14:33 audreyt and you don't like fink
14:33 kane_ i like fink well enough, but that blew up heavily too
14:34 kane_ it's been a few weeks now, it might be fixed by now
14:34 audreyt hmm wait... how far ago is 10.3.9?
14:34 kane_ i upgraded to 10.4 at the office, but that messed up a lot of things too
14:34 kane_ last 10.3 release
14:34 luqui svk trades genuine problems for annoyances
14:34 audreyt http://rt.openfoundry.org/Foundry/Project/Do​wnload/Attachment/33814/23873/SVK-1.00-2.dmg  # this may work
14:34 luqui I'd like some nice balance between svk, svn, and darcs
14:34 audreyt luqui: wouldn't we all... :)
14:34 kane_ audreyt: wouldn't i want the bugfixes from later svk's?
14:35 audreyt kane_: you can manually override lib/SVK/*
14:35 audreyt which will bring you the bugfixes without the XS pain
14:35 kane_ if that's Safe, i'm happy to give that a go
14:35 audreyt all it wants is a bincompat libapr etc
14:35 kane_ just unfucking the last svn bit here first
14:35 audreyt k
14:40 kane_ oh how i hate software
14:40 svnbot6 r8388 | kane++ | * add a jib-create script
14:40 svnbot6 r8388 | kane++ | * add some source files svn was reluctant to add before
14:42 * luqui wonders what kane_ doesn't hate
14:42 kane_ strawberries
14:42 kane_ they've never offended me
14:42 luqui they have me
14:42 luqui they're all like "I'm ripe I'm ripe" and then they're totally not
14:43 kane_ you're right... they're bastards
14:43 qmole lol
14:43 kane_ well, then i give up.. i hate it all
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14:44 luqui so what's that jib stuff?
14:44 audreyt luqui: http://search.cpan.org/dist/Perl​6-Bible/lib/Perl6/Bible/S22.pod
14:44 theorbtwo JIB is a meaningless recursive acronym.
14:44 luqui ooh, a synopsis I haven't seen
14:45 audreyt JIB: "JIB Inverts BIJ"
14:47 theorbtwo Interesting, when I asked I got JIB Is Brilliant
14:47 luqui :-p
14:47 * theorbtwo thinks we should call it YAPMS.  Then we can call packages bleaders.
14:47 theorbtwo Then we can all die a horrible death at the hands of women everywhere.
14:47 kane_ i had 'pms' before.. too many negative connotations
14:47 theorbtwo OK, probably not a good plan.
14:47 luqui you can't pronounce YAPMS
14:48 theorbtwo Yapp-ems.
14:48 theorbtwo You can't decide on a semantic for JIB.
14:48 luqui I guess it's as pronouncable as TMTOWTDI
14:49 kane_ http://www.ace.net.nz/tech/TechFileFormat.html#j
14:49 theorbtwo MDIM?  Module download, install, manage?
14:49 kane_ # it's FREE, which is most important
14:49 theorbtwo If we don't care about being three-letter, there's lots of free extensions.
14:50 theorbtwo PMS and MDIM are both free on that list.
14:50 audreyt I bet ... is also a free extension
14:50 audreyt it feels more p6ish anyway
14:50 luqui .perl6packagemanagementarchive
14:50 * kane_ likes jib
14:50 luqui that might make some operating systems angry
14:50 audreyt DBI-0.14....
14:51 audreyt ...install *....
14:51 kane_ there's actually nothing really p6 specific about this code
14:51 theorbtwo We can call them therefour modules.
14:51 audreyt okay, probably not a very good idea
14:51 luqui looks like perl 6 alright
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14:52 theorbtwo We could call them code packages (.cp), and the system cpms.
14:53 audreyt (I think .jib is fine :))
14:53 audreyt oh wait, that would be .jif
14:53 * stevan starts sips his morning coffee and begins reading the Role section of S12
14:53 audreyt I think .jib is beautiful
14:53 svnbot6 r8389 | kane++ | * add a pkg.pl script to generate .jibs from src dirs
14:53 svnbot6 r8389 | kane++ | * add a repo.pl script to genereate a repository from .jibs
14:53 svnbot6 r8389 | kane++ | * and all the other stuff that was in the /last/ commits
14:53 svnbot6 r8389 | kane++ |  and svn happily messed up -- GRRR
14:53 audreyt there. better
14:53 stevan I love the smell of autoboxed types in the morning  ....
14:53 * kane_ bows at audreyt
14:53 theorbtwo Mmmpf, too many names that don't mean anything.
14:54 * audreyt curtsies back
14:54 araujo has joined #perl6
14:54 * stevan ponders the meaning of "theorbtwo" ;P
14:54 theorbtwo At least it isn't /^PI.$/
14:54 luqui PIP!!
14:54 * luqui shuts up
14:55 kane_ ok, what's taken the .pie suffix?
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14:55 kane_ OMG it's free
14:55 * theorbtwo would guess it's something to do with ponnie.
14:55 luqui "Perl Imaginitave Extension"
14:55 kane_ s/itave/ary/ ?
14:56 luqui that's better
14:56 audreyt I must say .pie looks better (and smells better) than .jib
14:56 kane_ maybe we cna go for .ENC (as in Emperors New Clothers)
14:57 luqui heh.  How many programs use that extension already?
14:57 luqui I think at least three.
14:57 theorbtwo You know that'd make a package for osx and apple pie...
14:57 theorbtwo s/and/an/
14:57 * kane_ cires
14:57 kane_ cries even
14:57 luqui punderlicious
14:57 konobi .dta death-to-all!
14:58 kane_ .jfdi -- Jos' Fine & Dandy Installer
14:58 luqui Who's Jo, and why is there more than one of her?
14:58 * kane_ hits luqui over the head
14:58 * luqui is a punctuation nazi
14:59 kane_ isn't that punctuation correct?
14:59 * audreyt hands kane a punctuation uzi
14:59 * luqui runs
14:59 kane_ heh
14:59 kane_ audreyt: i'm more oldschool... rusty nails & a hammer
15:00 luqui I.::.m... tr:.y.:in.:.g...to:..do:dge...t:he::uzi
15:00 luqui hmm... looks like perl 6
15:00 kane_ my cat walking on the keyboards looks like perl6... your point? :)
15:01 luqui I guess when every string of characters is a valid program...
15:01 luqui I heard "Bach was original.  But then again, it's easy to be original when you write down every possible sequence of notes"
15:05 luqui And thus ends the longest OT conversation ever seen on #perl6
15:05 luqui 12 lines
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15:15 audreyt petdance: greetings. sorry that I had not got around on journaling.
15:24 audreyt stevan: anything to sync before I fall asleep?
15:24 stevan audreyt: nope, I am working on roles mostly
15:24 audreyt cool
15:25 audreyt I think I'm blocking on roles to do more desugaring and containers
15:25 audreyt as I don't feel comfortable hardcoding any more methods on prim classes
15:25 stevan yeah, that would make sense
15:25 audreyt they should all be role mixins
15:25 stevan agreed
15:25 audreyt okay
15:25 audreyt good night, very agreeable stevan :)
15:26 stevan good night audreyt :)
15:26 audreyt &
15:26 stevan I will try to come up with something for us to disagree upon :)
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16:40 avar does p6 have any easy way to define hashes like <> for arrays?
16:41 integral you can't still assign to a hash from a list?
16:41 avar mm
16:41 integral eval: %h = <a 1 b 2 c 3>; say %h<a>;
16:41 integral ?eval my %h = <a 1 b 2 c 3>; say %h<a>;
16:41 evalbot_8381 is now known as evalbot_8389
16:41 evalbot_8389 OUTPUT[1 ] bool::true
16:41 avar heh, no, I don't think so..
16:42 integral ?eval my %h = <a 1 b 2 c 3>; say %h<a b c>;
16:42 evalbot_8389 OUTPUT[123 ] bool::true
16:42 integral seems to work for me.
16:42 avar oh, well actually
16:42 avar I thought %h = (1,2,3,4) had been deprecated in favour of =>
16:42 avar apperently not..
16:43 integral well => constructs pairs.  And there's some heuristic about lists of pairs, vs. two-at-a-time lists :-/
16:46 avar b.t.w.
16:46 avar ?eval my %h = 1..4; say %h.perl
16:46 evalbot_8389 OUTPUT[{("1" => 2), ("3" => 4)} ] bool::true
16:46 avar you can get pretty output like that;)
16:46 theorbtwo ?eval my %h = (1..4;); %h
16:46 evalbot_8389 Error:  unexpected ";" expecting digit, "_", fraction, exponent, term postfix, operator, "does", "but", "is", "^till", "till^", "^..^", "till", "cmp", "<=>", "^..", "..^", ".." or ")"
16:47 theorbtwo ?eval my %h = (1..4); %h
16:47 evalbot_8389 {("1" => 2), ("3" => 4)}
16:47 theorbtwo You can also return things instead of printing them.
16:47 avar that way too;)
16:47 theorbtwo ?eval my %h = 1..4.map {$_=>$_}; %h
16:47 evalbot_8389 Error:  unexpected "{" expecting operator, "does", "but", "is", "^till", "till^", "^..^", "till", "cmp", "<=>", "^..", "..^", "..", ";" or end of input
16:47 theorbtwo ?eval my %h = 1..4.map({$_=>$_}); %h
16:47 evalbot_8389 Error: cannot cast from VList [VList [VRef <Pair>]] to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
16:47 theorbtwo Ugh!
16:47 avar ?eval $! = 1..300; die $!
16:48 evalbot_8389 (no output)
16:48 sili_ is now known as sili
16:48 avar that's strange..
16:50 avar ?eval say ~1..300
16:50 evalbot_8389 OUTPUT[123 ] bool::true
16:50 theorbtwo 123?
16:51 theorbtwo ?eval 1..300
16:51 evalbot_8389 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112,
16:51 theorbtwo ?eval "This is a longer string\n"
16:51 avar works on my box
16:51 evalbot_8389 "This is a longer string\n"
16:51 theorbtwo ?eval say "This is a longer string\n"
16:51 evalbot_8389 OUTPUT[This is a longer string  ] bool::true
16:51 avar ?eval "123 " x 500
16:51 evalbot_8389 "123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123
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16:53 rafl Who's the guy who's responsible for the smoke stuff?
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16:54 avar ?eval «0 núll»
16:54 evalbot_8389 Error:  unexpected "\NUL" expecting program
16:54 avar ?eval «0 núll».perl
16:54 evalbot_8389 Error:  unexpected "\NUL" expecting program
16:54 avar ?eval <0 ú>
16:54 evalbot_8389 ("0", "\\")
16:54 theorbtwo I'd expect that's an evalbot problem.
16:54 avar what's up with that...
16:54 avar ?eval <0 úæðáí>
16:54 evalbot_8389 ("0", "\\\\")
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17:16 avar sub prefix:<íslenska> (Num $n) returns Str { "foo" }
17:16 avar sub færeyska (Num $n) returns Str { "bar" }
17:16 avar say íslenska 500;
17:16 avar say færeyska 500;
17:16 avar what's the practical difference between these two?
17:16 PerlJam avar: none?
17:16 avar maybe;)
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17:57 Alias_ seen cwest?
17:58 Alias_ damned explicit-mode bots
17:59 avar Alias_: use seenserv
17:59 Alias_ "Wildcard SEEN is restricted to admins"
17:59 Alias_ oh, question mark
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19:48 xgl svn is down?
19:51 Juerd I have no idea.
19:55 xinming xgl: I think so, As I also can't check out the repository
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20:26 xgl ls
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21:02 dduncan g'day
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21:04 nothingmuch lumimies:
21:04 nothingmuch err
21:04 nothingmuch luqui: ping
21:04 nothingmuch seen luqui
21:04 nothingmuch obra: err, you also pijng
21:04 nothingmuch ping
21:04 nothingmuch http://use.perl.org/~luqui/journal/28089?from=rss
21:04 nothingmuch wrt that, and your question to luqui - this relates the circular prelude idea
21:05 nothingmuch basically i proposed that Perl 6's core definition will be written in perl 6
21:05 nothingmuch except for things like IO
21:05 nothingmuch even basic math
21:05 nothingmuch and then when the code is compiled, high level functions/methods from the prelude will have replacements proposed by the backend
21:05 nothingmuch so Perl6::Rule::compile could be provided by PGE on the parrot backend
21:06 nothingmuch but stay pure perl in the javascript backend
21:06 nothingmuch furthermore, circularity is promoted
21:06 nothingmuch defining functions in terms of each other
21:06 nothingmuch that way the backend can replace the part it's most comfortable replacing
21:06 nothingmuch instead of a predefined set of "core ops"
21:06 nothingmuch see also misc/blondie in the pugs tree
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21:40 dduncan easy come, easy go ... openfoundry down again
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