Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-12-25

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:04 svnbot6 r8424 | Darren_Duncan++ |  r1575@Darren-Duncans-Computer:  darrenduncan | 2005-12-24 16:03:39 -0800
00:04 svnbot6 r8424 | Darren_Duncan++ |  /ext/Rosetta-Incubator : changed some hashes/hashrefs use/creation code to proper syntax ... however, current pugs incorrectly produces anon block instead of hashref ... a new test is pending
00:09 Juerd New revelations:
00:09 Juerd 1. => for arguments sucks
00:09 Juerd 2. := sucks in general.
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00:50 * Juerd keeps typing pugs.blugs.com
00:50 Juerd Someone register blugs.com and alias pugs. :)
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03:31 audreyt rehi
03:31 obra reaudrey
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04:48 * clkao yawns
04:50 audreyt clkao: @ .tw now?
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05:11 azuroth audreyt: ping
05:12 clkao audreyt: yes
05:12 azuroth audreyt: you wouldn't know how to set up svk for parrot on feather, would you?
05:13 audreyt azuroth:
05:13 audreyt   mkdir ~/.svk
05:13 audreyt   cp ~autrijus/config ~/.svk/
05:13 audreyt svk co /parrot/mirror/trunk parrot
05:13 audreyt done
05:15 obra um
05:15 obra robrt would REALLY prefer you use a seed for parrot
05:15 obra http://www.parrotcode.org/source.html
05:16 obra setup instructions
05:16 audreyt and we did exactly that.
05:16 audreyt (the lines above is for a shared, slready seeded, parrot depot.)
05:16 audreyt s/slready/already/
05:16 svnbot6 r8425 | audreyt++ | * update feather's svk.html to mention /parrot/mirror explicitly
05:17 clkao audreyt: you meeting ingy today? in taipei or hsinchu?
05:17 azuroth thanks audreyt
05:18 audreyt in taipei
05:18 audreyt ingy is supposed to call me, like, 1 hr ago
05:19 clkao are you staying far north now? i will probably be in taipei this evening
05:21 audreyt no, I'm in muzha
05:22 dduncan audreyt, regarding your mention that you would hack in yaml generating this weekend ...
05:23 svnbot6 r8426 | audreyt++ | * more very silly CSS tweaks.
05:23 svnbot6 r8425 | audreyt++ | * update feather's svk.html to mention /parrot/mirror explicitly
05:23 dduncan don't feel you have to do is so quickly
05:23 audreyt dduncan: yes..?
05:23 audreyt I'm thinking about doing YAML::Syck for perl5
05:23 dduncan I won't be ready to use it for awhile anyway
05:23 audreyt as an exercise
05:23 audreyt and also because I firmly believe p5 world need a fast nonleaky roundtripsafe YAML implementation
05:24 dduncan considering the fluctuations of perl 6 and pugs' state ...
05:24 audreyt yup
05:24 audreyt but that doesn't stop you from using YAMLin perl5 :)
05:24 dduncan while I can code up my work in 90+% correct perl 6, I doubt I could get it to run quickly
05:24 audreyt run quickly as in performance, or as in language implementatino coverage?
05:24 dduncan so I will probably have the perl 5 version executing long before the perl 6 one is
05:25 audreyt sure, that's as it should be... having a running version also lets you validate that the framework works
05:25 dduncan when I say 'quickly', I mean, functional at all in the near term
05:26 dduncan one specific issue I'm hung up over right now is ...
05:26 dduncan I'm having trouble discerning the line between an array/hash and an arrayref/hashref
05:26 dduncan eg, when they automagically convert, when they don't
05:26 dduncan whether or not I ever have to use @{} or %{} or whether I never have to
05:26 audreyt nod. I think the idea is you never have to
05:27 audreyt $href.keys should always be as good as %hash.keys
05:27 dduncan also, the distinction of block from anonymous hash constructor
05:27 audreyt that is because luqui had changed the empty {} to mean empty hash, not empty code
05:28 dduncan ?eval class M { has %!h; submethod BUILD () { %!h = (4=>5); } method geth () { return { %!h }; } } class T { method tra ($m) { .useh( $m.geth() ) } method useh (%h) { say "got {%h}"; } }; my $gm = M.new(); my $gt = T.new(); $gt.tra( $gm );
05:28 evalbot_8423 is now known as evalbot_8425
05:28 evalbot_8425 OUTPUT[got <SubBlock(<anon>)> ] bool::true
05:28 dduncan this is distilled from the current Locale::KeyedText code
05:28 audreyt you'd like to return a cloned hash?
05:28 dduncan somehow an anon block was generated rather than a hash
05:28 dduncan yes
05:28 dduncan simpler examples of the code, not involving classes, does what I want
05:29 audreyt ?eval  class M { has %!h; submethod BUILD () { %!h = (4=>5); } method geth () { return hash(%!h) }  } class T { method tra ($m) { .useh( $m.geth() ) } method useh  (%h) { say "got {%h}"; } }; my $gm = M.new(); my $gt = T.new(); $gt.tra( $gm );
05:29 evalbot_8425 is now known as evalbot_8426
05:29 evalbot_8426 OUTPUT[got 45 ] bool::true
05:29 dduncan ?eval sub user ($mystr, %myhash) { say "{%myhash}"; } sub maker () { my %foo = (4=>5); return { %foo }; } user( 'mu', maker() );
05:29 evalbot_8426 OUTPUT[45 ] bool::true
05:30 dduncan that case, not involving classes, does seem to keep it as a hash
05:30 dduncan so it seems simply passing one sub result to another as an arg doesn't change the context enough
05:30 audreyt indeed, because %!h is not decomposed into a hash natively
05:30 dduncan but mixing in classes does something different
05:30 audreyt that... is a bug.
05:30 dduncan I considered making the nonworking example into a test, but where should it go?
05:30 audreyt {%!h} should definitely work
05:31 dduncan eg, under oo or hashes or subs?
05:31 * dduncan away for 10-15 mins
05:31 audreyt t/oo/attributes/hash.t ?
05:31 audreyt either under hashes or subs is fine
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05:35 audreyt fixed.
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05:38 obra hey andy.
05:38 Andy AIM
05:39 obra nod
05:40 audreyt Andy: yo
05:40 audreyt dduncan: r8427
05:41 svnbot6 r8427 | audreyt++ | * dduncan++ reported that %!h is not treated as a real hash
05:41 svnbot6 r8427 | audreyt++ |   for purpose of anonymous hash construction -- i.e.
05:41 svnbot6 r8427 | audreyt++ |   {%!h} was a Code but {%h} a Hash.  This is clearly broken --
05:41 svnbot6 r8427 | audreyt++ |   fixed it by moving desugaring from Parser into Eval.
05:41 Andy hey audrey
05:44 audreyt Andy: hey. got my mail?
05:47 svnbot6 r8428 | audreyt++ | * Text.Parser.OpTable: add deriving instances so OpTable
05:47 svnbot6 r8428 | audreyt++ |   can be serialized.
05:47 Andy audrey: No, which?
05:50 dduncan I'm back
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05:55 gaal morning all
05:59 rep moin
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06:05 dduncan audreyt, thank you, that checkin seems to have fixed this problem
06:05 dduncan there is another, possibly related
06:06 dduncan concerning the context "for .meth_ret_aryref() -> $x { ... }
06:06 dduncan simpler cases, where that called item is a sub, seem to work right
06:06 luqui try: for *.meth_ret_aryref() -> $x { ... }
06:06 dduncan also, wrapping it with @{} causes it to work in the meth situation
06:06 luqui or yeah, that works too
06:07 dduncan but since I don't have to wrap it with subs, I wonder why I have to with meths?
06:07 luqui well, the meths (rightfully imo) return array refs, not lists
06:07 dduncan will try to distill it ...
06:07 dduncan yes, and the subs returned array refs too
06:07 luqui there is a difference between:  sub foo () { (1,2,3) } and sub foo () { [1,2,3] }
06:07 dduncan yes
06:07 luqui oh, and by "right", you mean what?
06:08 dduncan for some reason, sub foo () { [1,2] } is different than method foo () { [1,2] }
06:08 luqui ?eval sub foo () { [1,2,3] }  for foo -> $x { say }
06:08 evalbot_8426 is now known as evalbot_8428
06:08 evalbot_8428 OUTPUT[ ] undef
06:08 luqui ?eval sub foo () { [1,2,3] }  for foo -> $x { say.elems }
06:08 evalbot_8428 Error: No compatible subrountine found: "&elems"
06:08 luqui ?eval sub foo () { [1,2,3] }  for *foo -> $x { say.elems }
06:08 dduncan will recheck
06:08 evalbot_8428 Error: No compatible subrountine found: "&elems"
06:08 luqui ?eval sub foo () { [1,2,3] }  for *foo -> $x { say .elems }
06:08 evalbot_8428 Error: No compatible subrountine found: "&elems"
06:08 dduncan determine details
06:08 luqui ?eval sub foo () { [1,2,3] }  for *foo -> $x { say(.elems) }
06:08 evalbot_8428 OUTPUT[3 ] undef
06:09 luqui that's a bug
06:09 luqui ?eval sub foo () { [1,2,3] }  for @{foo} -> $x { say(.elems) }
06:09 evalbot_8428 Error: No such method in class Int: "&elems"
06:09 luqui that's correct.  so * isn't working correctly
06:11 dduncan weird
06:11 svnbot6 r8429 | audreyt++ | * Text.Parser.OpTable: mkTable implemented -- optable
06:11 svnbot6 r8429 | audreyt++ |   built correctly.
06:11 svnbot6 r8430 | audreyt++ | * oops, prematurely checked in the jsperl hack that did
06:11 svnbot6 r8430 | audreyt++ |   not quite work.  Why doesn't SVK support per-chunk commit again?
06:11 dduncan okay, in my own test, the sub was working like the method
06:11 dduncan for some reason it was different earlier today
06:13 dduncan so, this syntax does the right thing:
06:13 dduncan ?eval sub foo () { return [5,6]; } for @{foo()} -> $x { say $x.ref; say $x; }
06:13 evalbot_8428 is now known as evalbot_8429
06:13 evalbot_8429 OUTPUT[Int 5 Int 6 ] undef
06:13 dduncan I just wasn't sure if I actually needed to wrap foo() or whether that was a bug
06:14 dduncan ?eval sub foo () { return [5,6]; } for *@{foo()} -> $x { say $x.ref; say $x; }
06:14 evalbot_8429 OUTPUT[Int 5 Int 6 ] undef
06:14 dduncan the splatty does work if used outside the @{}
06:14 dduncan but the result is the same either way
06:15 luqui *@foo is a no-op
06:15 luqui er, most of the time
06:15 luqui I guess * is being overloaded a bit
06:15 dduncan yes, except when used as an argument to a sub
06:15 luqui probably should do something about that
06:16 dduncan the only place I use * right now is in SQL::Routine, where I splat a hash ref so its member pairs bind to method named args
06:16 dduncan and according to the synopsis, that is what I should be doing
06:18 dduncan so my question right now is whether perl 6 spec says I have to say "for @{$aryref} -> $x {...}", or whether its only pugs currently requiring that?
06:19 luqui well, for $aryref -> $x {...} does not work by spec
06:19 luqui so you need either for @$aryref (which is the same as @{$aryref}) or for *$aryref
06:19 dduncan fine, if that's what the spec says
06:19 dduncan okay, so that's what the spec says, great then I'll do that
06:26 svnbot6 r8431 | Darren_Duncan++ |  r1577@Darren-Duncans-Computer:  darrenduncan | 2005-12-24 16:42:55 -0800
06:26 svnbot6 r8431 | Darren_Duncan++ |  /ext/Rosetta-Incubator : another small, similar syntax change
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06:31 dduncan that was a mistake, and I was trying to reverse it but svk's giving grief
06:31 dduncan ...
06:40 dduncan hmm, maybe this svk action worked ...
06:40 svnbot6 r8432 | Darren_Duncan++ |  r1589@Darren-Duncans-Computer:  darrenduncan | 2005-12-24 22:38:46 -0800
06:40 svnbot6 r8432 | Darren_Duncan++ |  /ext/Rosetta-Incubator : try forcing svk to push a previous commit, reversing mistaken r8431, with an inconsequential same-file change
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06:42 dduncan f, that didn't work
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07:04 dduncan hey, that try (r8433) worked
07:04 svnbot6 r8433 | Darren_Duncan++ |  r1591@Darren-Duncans-Computer:  darrenduncan | 2005-12-24 22:52:43 -0800
07:04 svnbot6 r8433 | Darren_Duncan++ |  /ext/Rosetta-Incubator : that didn't work; trying another thing
07:05 dduncan and in the process, I learned a bit of VIM
07:07 dduncan this particular solution was to further edit the same line I wanted committed, rather than a different line ... that led to a capital-G merge conflict, which I opted to resolve by editing (which opened VIM) and I edited the file to be the original commit / proper value for the line
07:07 dduncan not elegant, but it had the result I wanted
07:08 dduncan the actual problem ...
07:08 dduncan was that a change committed to an svk local repository, ...
07:08 dduncan was not pushed through to the mirror repo and openfoundry because pugs said it was an empty merge, when it actually wasn't
07:09 audreyt er, pugs would say no such things
07:09 audreyt probably svk said it :)
07:09 dduncan s/pugs/svk/
07:09 dduncan yes, that was a typo
07:09 audreyt *nod* probably a svk bug then
07:10 dduncan what I suspect tripped up svk was ...
07:10 clkao svk said what?
07:10 dduncan the incorrect commit was committed locally awhile ago, but pushed after I edited the checked out file back to what it should be
07:11 dduncan then I committed the checked out file, and tried to push that, to reverse the earlier pushed change, but svk said it was a lowercase-g empty merge
07:11 dduncan so both the change and reverse were pushed locally, but the second change wasn't pushed to openfoundry, as svk said it was empty
07:12 dduncan note that I'm still on svk 1.05 ... not sure if the bug fixed in 1.06 included this
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07:14 clkao uhm.. how about push -l ?
07:14 dduncan "awhile ago" means "earlier today"
07:14 dduncan I don't know
07:15 dduncan I tried looking at what 'svk help' said and I couldn't figure out the command to push the older commit
07:15 dduncan is that an eye or an ell you typed?
07:16 dduncan I normally just say 'svk push' after 'svk commit', and according to 'svk help push', it is like smerge -lf
07:16 dduncan if that's true, then -l was being done
07:17 dduncan or I'm confused
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07:19 dduncan were you suggesting that I try to push incrementally?
07:19 dduncan -I
07:25 pasteling "dduncan" at 24.108.164.7 pasted "transcript of svk use" (328 lines, 17K) at http://sial.org/pbot/15118
07:25 dduncan clkao, that may help you see what was happening
07:26 dduncan the only bit missing was the actual local commit of openfoundry/pugs commit r8431
07:26 clkao mmm
07:26 dduncan which happened prior to the transcript
07:26 * obra prepares to release
07:27 dduncan the mistaken change removed the @{}
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07:27 dduncan the fix put the @{} back
07:27 dduncan anything else you see for changes is superfluous
07:28 nothingmuch morning
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07:34 dduncan local revision 1588, committed in the transcript, is the one that was never pushed through, but should have been
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07:37 clkao looks a bit weird. i really need to write a merge visualisation tool
07:37 ingy audreyt: hello!
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07:38 obra clkao: oo
07:39 dduncan clkao, thanks for looking into this matter
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07:42 dduncan fyi, in my mind, the only thing that seems different about this time (prior to the push of r8431) than the past where svk worked correctly, is that I had a change in my checked out copy (relative to local commit) that happened to be the same as the one on openfoundry prior to that push
07:42 dduncan but I assumed that wouldn't matter, as I thought push/smerge didn't pay any attention to what was in my checked out directory
07:43 dduncan only what was committed in the local path relative to what was committed in the mirror aka openfoundry
07:43 dduncan perhaps that assumption was false
07:43 dduncan the fact that committing is a separate step from the push was the basis for the assumption of push ignoring the checkout dir
07:44 dduncan committing locally that is
07:44 dduncan but ...
07:45 dduncan I'm guessing that perhaps that pull I did at the start of the transcript, which does take into account the checkout dir, might have had a hand in this, though the pulled files were unrelated
07:45 dduncan only a guess
07:45 dduncan but suffice to say, the actual behaviour of svk seemed illogical from what I expected to happen
07:46 dduncan perhaps my assumptions of the way it should work are wrong, who knows
07:47 * dduncan signing out soon, but good luck!
07:47 audreyt thanks!
07:48 dduncan 11:47pm, and the family wants me up earlier than usual tomorrow, given what day that is
07:48 dduncan merry christmas, to those of you that pay attention to it
07:49 dduncan and good other near-by holidays to everyone else
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08:07 audreyt thanks!
08:07 * audreyt goes meeting ingy
08:08 audreyt bbiab &
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08:32 svnbot6 r8434 | audreyt++ | * Data.FastPackedString - much faster isPrefixOf.
08:32 svnbot6 r8434 | audreyt++ | * Text.Parse.OpTable - handle terms parsing -- compound operators coming RSN.
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08:47 Mahmoud-Wrk hi, any one here?
08:48 Mahmoud-Wrk just came here.. people in #perl look too busy.
08:48 Mahmoud-Wrk i have little problem with Net::LDAP::Express
08:48 Mahmoud-Wrk i'm able to get data from ldap server (thanks to ethereal)
08:48 Mahmoud-Wrk but i'm not able to display it :/
08:49 Mahmoud-Wrk http://sial.org/pbot/15120
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08:58 dduncan Mahmoud-Wrk, this channel is specific to perl 6, parrot, pugs etc, ... general perl 5 issues, while not forbidden, are discouraged on this channel ... you should go back to #perl and ask there, or a list specific to net, or ldap, even if they are busy
08:59 dduncan also, I personally don't know the answer to your question
09:03 Mahmoud-Wrk i'm there too
09:03 Mahmoud-Wrk but they are too busy
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09:59 svnbot6 r8435 | gaal++ | remove warning
10:22 gaal asavige: ping
10:26 svnbot6 r8436 | audreyt++ | * Text.Parser.OpTable: handler for operators, pass #1
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11:47 gaal asavige: hey
11:47 asavige hi gaal
11:47 gaal in your p6l post I think you mean @t[0] etc.
11:48 asavige Well, the code I posted works with Pugs (don't thinks it works with @t[0])
11:48 gaal ah, oh wait
11:48 gaal the iterant is $t
11:48 gaal so it is right.
11:49 asavige i'm sitting where audrey sat at my house trying to get some inspiration ;-)
11:50 gaal but I wonder, should this work? for @lol -> @l {...}
11:50 asavige and i just noticed she left behind an apple plug connector thingy
11:51 gaal is that less or more yummy than leaving behind an applie pie thingy?
11:51 asavige maybe it should work but it doesn't work for me with pugs ... hence my question
11:52 asavige given the way she travels and her absent-mindedness she probably leaves behind a trail
11:52 asavige trail of her belongings all over the world ;)
11:52 gaal ?eval my @lol = ([1,2], [3,4]); for @lol -> @l { say @l }
11:52 evalbot_8429 is now known as evalbot_8436
11:52 evalbot_8436 OUTPUT[1 2 3 4 ] undef
11:53 gaal ?eval my @lol = ([1,2], [3,4]); for @lol -> @l { say "[@l]" }
11:53 evalbot_8436 OUTPUT[[@l] [@l] ] undef
11:53 gaal ?eval my @lol = ([1,2], [3,4]); for @lol -> @l { say "[ @l ]" }
11:53 evalbot_8436 OUTPUT[[ @l ] [ @l ] ] undef
11:53 gaal ?eval my @lol = ([1,2], [3,4]); for @lol -> @l { say "[ {@l} ]" }
11:53 evalbot_8436 OUTPUT[[ 1 2 ] [ 3 4 ] ] undef
11:53 gaal does work.
11:53 gaal but you want to patmatch further, right?
11:53 asavige yeah, but i want to pass two params ($x, $y) to the block, not an array
11:54 asavige i want to find some magic to flatten each list in the list
11:54 gaal right. took me a while but I understand you now :)
11:55 gaal in haskell: (x, y):others
11:56 gaal though this being a lol and not a list of tuples possibly compicates this.
11:56 gaal luqui has been thinking about this kind of thing, I wonder what he has to say.
11:59 asavige ? eval my @l = (1,2,3,4); for @l -> $x, $y { say "x=$x y=$y" }
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12:00 asavige that's not what I want, just trying out this eval thing.
12:00 asavige ?eval my @l = (1,2,3,4); for @l -> $x, $y { say "x=$x y=$y" }
12:00 evalbot_8436 OUTPUT[x=1 y=2 x=3 y=4 ] undef
12:01 gaal come to think of it you can pattern match against lists in haskell, not just against tuples
12:02 gaal that's the output you want, right? but not the syntax you want.
12:02 gaal because you had to change the structure of your data for it to work.
12:03 asavige yeah. for a simple list selecting two at a time works fine, but not for a list of lists
12:05 gaal well, this should be available in formal sub args, not just abstractions (pointy blocks)
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12:06 asavige k. i tried some simple named subs but then realised that flattening argument lists doesn't work yet in pugs
12:07 gaal I think an early syntax was sub foo ([$x, $y])
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12:08 gaal which has arity one, so you could do
12:09 gaal for @lol &foo
12:09 gaal maybe the syntax for pointies oughta be
12:09 gaal for @lol -> [$x, $y] { ... }
12:10 asavige i've just re-read the synopses after a six month break and they are mind bogglingly cool
12:10 Juerd gaal: IIRC, a comma is needed if you don't specify a literal block
12:10 asavige but mind boggling complex also
12:10 Juerd gaal: for @loo, &foo;
12:10 Juerd s/loo/lol/
12:12 * nothingmuch ponders going for a walk
12:12 nothingmuch the rain is making a lovely noise
12:12 nothingmuch but i don't have an extra pair of pants to change to
12:12 nothingmuch and it's very very windy
12:13 Juerd This looks so surreal.
12:15 gaal nothingmuch: go barefoot all the way up
12:15 gaal Juerd: right
12:15 nothingmuch gaal: heh
12:16 nothingmuch i don't have the right shoes for the rain either
12:16 nothingmuch just remembered
12:16 nothingmuch i can go sit on the bench for a while though
12:17 Juerd Idiot :)
12:18 nothingmuch ?
12:18 Juerd You WANT to go into the rain.
12:18 nothingmuch oh, the anti rain thing
12:18 nothingmuch yeah yeah
12:18 Juerd That's SO weird.
12:18 nothingmuch we've had a droughty year
12:19 asavige has left "later"
12:19 nothingmuch C++ sucks
12:19 nothingmuch so much programmer overhead
12:19 nothingmuch every method needs to be declared in two places
12:20 gaal Juerd: we were wearing t-shirts last week
12:21 nothingmuch and last year i missed the winter
12:21 Juerd Still :)
12:21 Juerd Rain.
12:21 nothingmuch stayed inside too much
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12:22 Juerd My mind has no trouble understanding why people want to believe in gods, why they want to change their bodies, etcetera
12:22 nothingmuch okay
12:22 nothingmuch so look at it this way
12:22 Juerd But understanding why anyone would like to get soaking wet outside... is hard.
12:22 nothingmuch can you understand fashion?
12:22 Juerd No
12:22 nothingmuch not soaking wet
12:22 nothingmuch can you understand the way people seek out things which are different from their lifestyle?
12:23 nothingmuch out of curiousity
12:23 nothingmuch interest
12:23 Juerd Sure :)
12:23 Juerd But rain? :)
12:23 nothingmuch excitement
12:23 xinming anyone here would suggest an file system for me? :-/ ext3 crashed. :-/
12:23 nothingmuch it's the same
12:23 Juerd Does rain excite you?
12:23 nothingmuch we don't get it often, so it's so nice to have it (the smell, the cold, etc) that I enjoy it
12:23 nothingmuch it's also a spartan thing
12:23 nothingmuch i am a masochist at heart
12:23 Juerd xinming: No filesystem is a good replacement for backups.
12:23 nothingmuch i like sufferring in a "tough" way ;-)
12:23 Juerd xinming: And ext3 is very stable.
12:24 Juerd nothingmuch: Ah
12:24 Juerd nothingmuch: Masochism I can understand, and through that, the love for rain :)
12:24 nothingmuch it makes me feel accomplished, the fact that i can enjoy the rain despite the physical discomfort
12:25 nothingmuch for the same reason I like camping, and laugh when I fall
12:25 Juerd I like rain only when I'm in a tent.
12:25 nothingmuch i think
12:25 Juerd Because of the sound.
12:25 Juerd The wetness is horrible.
12:25 nothingmuch yeah, i like the sound to
12:25 xinming Juerd: hmm, But In my opinion, It has some problem with dealing a file with holes, or maybe memory map. :-/
12:25 nothingmuch but I don't have fond memories of rain and tents together
12:25 xinming Juerd: do you use Vmware?
12:25 nothingmuch i only now bought a tent which is actually seam-taped
12:25 Juerd xinming: I do use vmware.
12:25 nothingmuch ;-)
12:25 Juerd nothingmuch: Well, tents in .nl are generally all rain proof. Otherwise they wouldn't be of much use :)
12:26 nothingmuch =)
12:26 nothingmuch car camping with the family we had two nights when we had to sleep in the car
12:26 Juerd It was funny during WTH that many foreigners had tents that were designed for dry weather only :)
12:26 nothingmuch WTH?
12:26 Juerd One of the congress tents was re-purposed as night shelter during the nights after the (extremely) heavy rain fall.
12:26 Juerd nothingmuch: WhatTheHack
12:26 xinming Juerd: hmm, while vmware running, It will create a file without any name in /tmp, you can du -h /tmp ; and ls -a to check it is not there,
12:27 Juerd A file without name?
12:27 nothingmuch i was a gadget-monkey recently and bought this: http://www.thenorthface.com/opencms/opencms/tnf/gear.jsp?site=EU&amp;model=APE7
12:27 Juerd Then it's not in /tmp either.
12:28 xinming Juerd: But if the vmware is running, and sadly, the power is cut... then, ext3 gone sometimes. :-/
12:28 Juerd nothingmuch: Ooh, nice :)
12:28 Juerd I have a cheap EUR 60 tent.
12:28 nothingmuch yeeah, it looks very sturdy, and it's light
12:28 nothingmuch but I only pitched it inside yet
12:28 nothingmuch i'm going camping next week
12:28 nothingmuch if plan goes OK
12:28 nothingmuch 4 day hike from haifa to the kineret
12:29 Juerd My dad had a very small tent, with just enough room for one person
12:29 Juerd My mom made it
12:29 xinming Juerd: that's why I think I should do a switch on file system. :-/
12:29 Juerd His backpack was the most important structural part of the tent :)
12:29 nothingmuch hehe
12:29 nothingmuch that sounds cool
12:29 Juerd It looked like a coffin from the outside :)
12:30 nothingmuch got pictures?
12:30 Juerd And we called it "'t ukkie", which stands for "tukkie" (nap) and "het ukkie" (the small one)
12:30 Juerd nothingmuch: Hm... I'll ask
12:30 Juerd afk
12:30 nothingmuch are 1 man tents really just a weather proof sleeping bag? or more than that?
12:31 nothingmuch wrists?
12:42 gaal rehi
12:42 gaal I have, uh, "exciting" memories of tent and rain.
12:53 gaal hey, I'm happy to find that I was wrong: c# does have hashes in the language itself.
12:53 gaal luqui: subscripting there uses the same syntax as array subscripting, too.
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12:54 gaal nothingmuch: when camping you need space for your rucksack and boots, and possibly a dry place to change clothes etc.
12:56 gaal 1-man tents are usually really cramped and inconvenient, the only reasons to take them and not bigger ones are space and weight.
12:56 gaal if traveling with a partner splitting a duo is better.
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13:25 nothingmuch gaal: makes sense
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13:48 svnbot6 r8437 | asavige++ | update docs evil plan
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13:59 asavige audreyt: ping
14:14 nothingmuch home hjome home!
14:14 nothingmuch dancing
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14:38 araujo Hello.
14:39 araujo What are you using for parsing perl6?
14:39 araujo (merry christmas)
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14:45 gaal araujo: we're using Parsec, a parser combinator library in haskell
14:45 gaal # http://haskell.org/hawiki/ParsingInHaskell
14:45 gaal sooner or later, there will be a grammar for perl 6 in perl 6 rules
14:46 araujo Oh, ok, that's what i wanted to know
14:46 araujo I thought you were usign Happy too
14:47 gaal nope. most of the parser code is in Pugs.Parser
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16:10 Juerd 15:51 < gaal> sooner or later, there will be a grammar for perl 6 in perl 6 rules
16:10 Juerd Sooner, I think
16:12 gaal Juerd: are you working on it?
16:23 Juerd Not quite
16:23 Juerd It's just a feeling I have
16:24 integral I think quite a few people who could write at least some of it want one sooner rather than later too
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17:11 cm yeehaw, journal update
17:11 cm the journey continues :o)
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17:35 nothingmuch what would you name a method that allows access by force, from an access violation error handler
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17:44 gaal trap?
17:45 gaal what is "access by force" though?
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17:54 nothingmuch gaal: sub access_denied { my ( $self, $what_was_denied_access_to ) = @_; if ( i_really_want_to_allow() ) { $self->forcibly_allow_access } }
17:57 audreyt rehi
17:57 audreyt the hackathon was a success!
17:57 * audreyt releases YAML::Syck 0.01 to CPAN
17:57 audreyt with a parser that does not segfault, and a dumper that actually does something :)
18:02 nothingmuch =D
18:02 audreyt and it bundles syck
18:02 audreyt so should be much happy
18:02 audreyt ingy++
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18:13 ingy audreyt: hello
18:13 ingy how does minicpan work?
18:14 ingy I think I have a minicpan in ~/CPAN
18:14 ingy how do I sync it?
18:15 ingy hmm I think I got it
18:15 ingy yay
18:15 ingy need that new Module::Install
18:16 ingy audreyt: does YAML::Syck use YAML::Base as discussed?
18:17 audreyt ingy: no, I'll do it after the release
18:17 audreyt of YAML 0.50
18:17 audreyt as YAML::Syck 0.02
18:17 audreyt 0.01 is self contained and 5.004 happy
18:18 ingy :p
18:19 ingy where is the code checked in?
18:19 ingy btw, will YAML 0.49_70 do?
18:20 ingy I am about to release that
18:22 audreyt ingy: it's checked in in CPAN
18:22 audreyt and also http://svn.kwiki.org/audreyt/YAML-Syck/
18:22 audreyt http://pause.cpan.org/incoming/YAML-Syck-0.01.tar.gz
18:24 ingy ok
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18:39 nothingmuch two released in 5 minutes
18:39 nothingmuch of the same module
18:39 * nothingmuch never did that before ;-)
18:40 ingy hi nothingmuch
18:40 clkao ingy
18:40 ingy clkao!
18:40 nothingmuch hola ingy
18:40 ingy clkao: are you in taipei?
18:40 clkao yes
18:40 ingy me too
18:41 ingy at $random_hotel
18:42 ingy clkao: now that audreyt has released YAML::Syck we can be friends again
18:42 ingy audreyt++
18:42 clkao good good
18:42 ingy maybe do some hotsprings
18:43 ingy with no bothering me about stupid yaml breakage
18:44 ingy Getopt-WonderBra????
18:45 ingy cpan is insane
18:45 dduncan has joined #perl6
18:45 audreyt hm, that reminds me, we need a Perl6 Getopt library that derives everything from the subroutine signature
18:45 * nothingmuch sings the introspection song
18:46 audreyt :)
18:46 * ingy does a little dance
18:46 ingy audreyt: YAML::Syck is somewhat amazing to me
18:47 ingy your crazy ass symbol binder thingy is cool
18:47 audreyt :)
18:47 ingy you've done this before?
18:47 audreyt it's 79 lines of perl, 200 lines of C
18:47 audreyt and we're all set
18:47 ingy is it your own technique?
18:47 audreyt yeah, it's from Language::MzScheme
18:47 audreyt yup
18:48 audreyt the store switch logic is from Storable.xs; the callback C interface in parser_handler is from Pugs
18:48 ingy you don't really need all those 1000 bindings do you?
18:48 audreyt no I don't... I presume I can build them lazily
18:48 audreyt the point though is other people may find uses for them
18:48 audreyt but sure, I think I can build it on demand
18:48 ingy nod
18:49 ingy an autoload would be nice
18:49 audreyt commits welcome
18:49 ingy yeah, I'll be hacking that code soon
18:49 audreyt journal up re: tonight's hackathon
18:49 ingy crufting it up
18:49 audreyt now I need to 1)shower 2)sleep
18:50 ingy good night
18:50 audreyt 'night... :)
18:52 wolverian audreyt++ # journal
18:54 cm :-)
18:58 ingy audreyt: looks like YAML::Syck spins on dumping cyclic data
18:58 ingy :(
19:00 audreyt ingy: I did mention that is one unresolved bug
19:00 audreyt I know how to fix this though (in the mark_node sequence)
19:01 audreyt just didn't get around to make it compile
19:01 audreyt tomorrow
19:01 audreyt but, sleep. :)
19:01 audreyt &
19:01 obra sleep well
19:03 wolverian ooh, YAML::Syck++
19:04 wolverian hm, I can't see it in RT
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19:26 ingy YAML-0.49_70.tar.gz on cpan
19:27 wolverian ingy++ # you too!
19:29 ingy thanks wolverian
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19:43 ingy perl -Ilib -MYAML::Syck -e 'print Dump *::'
19:44 ingy audreyt: we need ^that^ to work like YAML.pm :)
19:44 obra whoa
19:44 * obra tries that in yaml.pm
19:45 obra ingy: for extra points, can you serialize that to a file and read it back in to replace your perl environment? ;)
19:46 ingy obra: not sure how to load:
19:46 ingy perl -Ilib -MYAML -e 'print Dump *STDIN'
19:47 obra understood.
19:47 obra Mostly, I was kidding.
19:47 ingy among other things
19:47 ingy I know, but it was worth pondering
19:47 obra But the eventual goal of "serializable continuations with yaml in pelr5" is tasty
19:47 nothingmuch GAAAH
19:47 nothingmuch you guys are crazy
19:47 wolverian obra, you can pick it up from python? ;)
19:48 obra nothingmuch: also, kidding ;)
19:48 nothingmuch we need deparse to support closures first, though
19:49 * obra goes off to write a release announcement
19:49 ingy perl -Ilib -MYAML -e '$YAML::UseCode=1; print Dump *::'
19:49 integral nothingmuch: Data::Dump::Stream supports some closure dumping.
19:50 nothingmuch demerphq++
19:56 nothingmuch =(
19:56 nothingmuch i don't want to fix tests
19:59 cm is there a document along the lines of "Why Attribute Grammers Matter"?
19:59 cm e->a
20:01 rep grammers?
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20:02 nothingmuch cm: i found Why Attribute Grammars Matter more of a "woah, haskell is cool"
20:02 nothingmuch just use AGs
20:02 nothingmuch that's the way to learn that they matter
20:02 nothingmuch when I wrote a type inferrencer in AGs i was hooked
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20:07 cm mhm
20:09 cm rep, 21:11 < cm> e->a
20:10 rep :)
20:14 cm nothingmuch, oh, there *is* a Why Attribute Grammars Matter. doh :-)
20:15 nothingmuch =)
20:15 nothingmuch the monad reader++
20:15 * nothingmuch goes for a walk
20:20 cm I think I even read that article ;)
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20:28 ingy audreyt: I made 'ysh -R -MYAML::Syck' work
21:01 ferreira Trying to install YAML::Syck I've got q{Can't locate object method "_top" via package "MM" at inc/Module/Install/Base.pm - /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.7/Module/Install/Base.pm line 52.}
21:01 ferreira And then trying to install Module::Install 0.48 I've got q{Can't locate object method "_top" via package "PACK001" at inc/Module/Install/Base.pm - lib/Module/Install/Base.pm line 52.}
21:02 ferreira Do you know about some issue with this new Module::Install? - This is perl, v5.8.7 built for cygwin-thread-multi-64int
21:03 ferreira s/Do you/Does anyone/
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21:52 ferreira ingy: a fix introduced in Module::Install::Can for Cygwin (ExtUtils::MM_Cygwin::maybe_command) is not working anymore and makes building with M::I to fail. If the extra code is removed, it works. I will try to find an explanation for this.
21:52 ferreira oh, the "fix" was introducing in Module::Install 0.40
21:53 ferreira s/introducing/introduced/
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23:22 sky ]autri?
23:22 sky audreyt: ?
23:22 obra sky: she's asleep
23:22 obra ;)
23:23 sky I saw she is now a blogs.com user
23:23 sky did she get that comped?
23:28 obra no idea
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