Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-12-30

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
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01:47 GammaRay can := bind to lexical variables(ones created w/ my)?
01:50 audreyt yes.
01:51 audreyt ?eval my $x; $x := 7; $x = 8;
01:51 evalbot_8500 is now known as evalbot_8501
01:51 evalbot_8501 Error: Can't modify constant item: VInt 7
01:51 Khisanth heh
01:51 audreyt (as it should be)
01:51 Khisanth that "Can't modify constant item" thing seems to come up a lot
01:51 audreyt it's roughly equivalent to "let x = 7 in writeTVar x 8"
01:52 Khisanth in very non DWIMy ways
01:52 audreyt yeah, because p6 defaults on pass-by-ref but marks the refs as immutable
01:52 audreyt s/immutable/readonly/
01:52 audreyt that's perhaps the largest B&D change
01:53 audreyt it does make nasty $_[0]-related bugs go away, though.
01:53 Khisanth err it's actually specced that way?
01:53 Khisanth I recall trying to do something like @foo = (1..10) and then not being allowed to modify @foo
01:54 audreyt er no, I mean just the function params
01:54 audreyt ?eval @foo = (1..10); @foo = (7..10); @foo[1]=5;
01:54 evalbot_8501 Error: Undeclared variable: "@foo"
01:54 audreyt ?eval my @foo = (1..10); @foo = (7..10); @foo[1]=5;
01:54 evalbot_8501 \5
01:54 audreyt all these should be fine
01:56 Khisanth ?eval  my @foo = (1..10); @foo >>++;
01:56 evalbot_8501 Error: Can't modify constant item: VInt 1
01:57 audreyt ?eval my $x = 1; my @foo := $x;
01:57 evalbot_8501 \1
01:57 audreyt ?eval my $x = 1; my @foo := $x; @foo >>++;
01:57 evalbot_8501 Error: Hyper OP only works on lists
01:57 audreyt ?eval my $x = 1; my @foo := [$x]; @foo >>++;
01:57 evalbot_8501 Error: Can't modify constant item: VInt 1
01:57 audreyt that... is definitely a bug.
01:58 audreyt ok, I'll do _proper_ container type implementation now and fix this for good
01:59 Khisanth w00t! :)
01:59 * audreyt hacketh
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02:27 stevan_ audreyt: ping
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02:34 audreyt stevan_: pong
02:35 stevan_ audreyt: how go the containers :)
02:35 stevan_ anything I can help with
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02:40 audreyt stevan: I've just waken up
02:40 audreyt probably going to model scalars first
02:40 audreyt and make another surface language for PIL2
02:41 stevan ok
02:41 audreyt that has assignments and Code closures
02:41 stevan ah
02:41 stevan one step closer to p6?
02:44 audreyt yeah, the surface syntax should be legal p6
02:44 stevan cool
02:44 audreyt but a rather constrained subset
02:44 audreyt sprinkled with MY::<$foo>.FETCH calls
02:45 audreyt etc
02:45 audreyt that makes all operations explicit
02:45 stevan ah
02:45 audreyt as usual there will be sugar for writers
02:45 stevan like P6-ObjectSpace
02:45 audreyt not sure how much sugar we want at this point
02:45 audreyt yeah
02:45 stevan sugar rots your mental teeth :)
02:45 audreyt heh
02:45 stevan well I am trying to work out all the p6 boxed types
02:45 audreyt also thinking using Text.Parser.Rule for the minilang
02:46 audreyt because with that we get Grammar for free
02:46 stevan yes
02:46 stevan thats a very good idea :)
02:46 audreyt and bootstrapping is much easier
02:46 audreyt and now with sane error reporting (instead of silent failure that's impossible to debug), it seems even attractive
02:46 stevan cool
02:47 stevan oh,.. speaking of errors I need to get you a role error object
02:47 audreyt yup
02:47 stevan how about a nul opaque with two attrs; methods, attrs
02:47 audreyt that will do for now
02:48 stevan I will give you the method name, the first time I saw it, and the role which conflicts with it
02:49 stevan I will figure out the details of the structure later
02:49 stevan oh,.. re: Scalar
02:49 stevan are you going to have it inherit from Object?
02:49 stevan or do you want to have breakfast first, then talk :)
02:51 audreyt hm
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02:51 audreyt Scalar is going to inherit from Object
02:51 audreyt and mix in container role
02:51 audreyt I think.
02:51 stevan what about Tieable?
02:51 audreyt we'll worry about Tieable later.
02:51 stevan ok
02:51 audreyt i.e. not for today.
02:51 stevan cool (it is on my list of Boxed-type-things)
02:52 svnbot6 has joined #perl6
02:52 stevan hey svnbot6
02:52 audreyt :)
02:52 audreyt ok... let me try for 15mins if I can turn the current minilang into Rules
02:53 stevan audreyt: do we need AUTOLOAD for Scalar? or will there be an implicit FETCH?
02:53 audreyt then I'll box up Integer as "Int" to agree with spec and experiment with autoboxing nonexposed types
02:53 audreyt stevan: the desugarer will add a FETCH call.
02:53 audreyt you need not worry about that
02:53 stevan cool
02:53 * stevan doesnt like AUTOLOAD
02:53 audreyt neither do I
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02:54 stevan audreyt: cool,.. I will continue to dig through AES for types
02:54 audreyt ?eval my @a = (1..10).reverse; @a.elems
02:54 evalbot_8501 is now known as evalbot_8502
02:54 evalbot_8502 10
02:54 gantrixx Will Perl6 still use XS to interface with C/C++ code?
02:54 stevan gantrixx: hopefully not
02:55 audreyt gantrixx: no. something line Inline::C or NCI is far more likely.
02:55 audreyt use c:stdio;
02:55 stevan or just writing Parrot extensions of some kind
02:55 audreyt printf("or maybe this")
02:55 SamB audreyt: Inline::C needs to do its dirty work somehow
02:55 stevan for the parrot version that is ;)
02:55 audreyt SamB: yeah and that's going to be runtime specific.
02:55 audreyt SamB: on a language level though it makes sense to be a unified interface.
02:56 gantrixx Well it's been a while since I fooled around with Perl6
02:56 stevan Haskell is the new XS :P
02:56 audreyt heh :p
02:56 SamB shouldn't the standardization be done for FFI, not inlining?
02:56 gantrixx I've done a lot of work in Perl5, so I'm a fan of Perl, however Python is gobbling up a lot of market share
02:57 SamB that would probably be simpler...
02:57 audreyt see this for NCI: http://svn.perl.org/parrot/trunk/runti​me/parrot/library/YAML/Parser/Syck.pir
02:57 gantrixx I even had a client that was interested in using Perl6 already, but had to tell him it's not ready
02:57 audreyt SamB: I think inlining should be part of FFI, as Inline::Python and Inline::Perl5 is and Inline::Tcl all uses it
02:57 SamB eh.
02:57 stevan gantrixx: yes, we missed this christmas,.. maybe next one
02:57 SamB I think inlining would make more sense as a library built on FFI primitives.
02:58 audreyt SamB: I agree. all I'm saying is it should be part of standard library and part of the standard.
02:58 audreyt implementation stragegy is something else :)
02:58 audreyt strategy, even
02:59 SamB part of the standard lib, sure. but shouldn't be the lowest standardized level ;-)
02:59 gantrixx how long before ActiveState has a Perl6 distribution and Redhat is including it in there distro?
02:59 audreyt SamB: I think we... are in vehement agreement
02:59 SamB heh
03:00 audreyt gantrixx: instead of RedHat... may I interest you in Mandriva :)
03:00 gantrixx no, not really
03:00 audreyt http://rpm.pbone.net/index.php3?st​at=3&amp;search=pugs&amp;srodzaj=3
03:00 audreyt is the .rpm not compatible? hmm
03:00 gantrixx I focus on just 1 or 2 distros since that is what I use in the corporate world
03:01 audreyt also, instead of ActivePerl, there's PxPerl
03:01 SamB I guess I don't think of libraries as standard so much as de-facto standard...
03:01 audreyt http://www.codeproject.com/tools/pxperl.asp
03:01 gantrixx OK, I guess the question should be, "how long before Perl6 is mainstream"
03:02 gantrixx on the windows platform, every company I know uses ActiveState Perl
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03:02 audreyt gantrixx: my best guesstimate is "sometime around 2007"
03:02 audreyt http://pugs.blogs.com/photos​/visiolization/timeline.html
03:03 gantrixx hmmmm.....do you think Perl will even be relevant by then?
03:03 gantrixx I'm getting more and more of a call for Python in place of Perl these days
03:04 audreyt well, if we did ship something that compiles perl6 to perl5 in 2006, that's going to help a lot
03:04 phredmoyer has joined #perl6
03:04 audreyt and I'm fine with people using python or ruby meanwhile :)
03:04 phredmoyer has left
03:05 gantrixx and after Perl has lost that market share to Python and Ruby, do you really think they will come back?
03:05 audreyt I have no idea. :)
03:05 stevan gantrixx: Perl 6 is pretty much a new langauge,.. I have no fear of it's ability to compete
03:05 audreyt probably because my brain doesn't work in market share terms
03:05 audreyt our market share is currently 0%
03:06 audreyt (rounding off fractional insignificant points)
03:06 gantrixx Oh I understand the challenge, it is a complete rewrite.  An evolution.
03:06 audreyt so it can't go anywhere but up!
03:06 * stevan thinks market shares are basically not fun, so in Pugs they are optimized away
03:06 audreyt yup
03:06 gantrixx and I wish there all the effort that was going into Python develompent was going into Perl6
03:07 audreyt oh, but they are
03:07 gantrixx but more than likely, the guy is going to move on to a new girlfriend, and just because his ex lost weight doesn't mean he will re-unite
03:07 audreyt we stole^Wlifted a _lot_ of ideas from PyPy and IronPython
03:07 stevan gantrixx: we have stolen a LOT of their ideas :)
03:07 gantrixx good
03:07 gantrixx very good
03:07 stevan gantrixx: but if that ex was his true love,.. he might :)
03:07 gantrixx but it can't be stolen, they are community ideas
03:08 audreyt ..and this is more like the daughter of his ex ;)
03:08 SamB hmm. I feel like I ought to try PyPy ought.
03:08 SamB er, out.
03:08 gantrixx yes, but waiting for her to be of legal age is a bit frustrating
03:09 audreyt lol
03:09 gantrixx I've been trying to convince the lugradio guys to do a piece on Perl6.  I figure if a little bit more of a buzz can be generated, maybe more people will get behind it.
03:10 stevan gantrixx: we already have 100+ commiters :)
03:10 gantrixx what are commiters?
03:10 * audreyt ponders posting this exchange on her journal
03:10 SamB well, in theory I am one.
03:10 stevan people who can commit to the pugs svn repo
03:11 gantrixx Oh, well I'll be unemployed in March, maybe I can write some modules
03:11 stevan gantrixx: thats the spirit! :)
03:11 SamB I only did a few, and a large percentage of those broke things for people with no Linker.c implementation for their platform...
03:11 SamB this may be related to the fact that I do not know perl
03:11 gantrixx And I am in a position with my current contract to push for the use of Perl6, if it were available.
03:12 stevan gantrixx: I am in a similar position
03:13 gantrixx that's the problem with open source, it's all done in spare time
03:13 stevan we are instead adopting p5 technologies which will port to p6 easily
03:13 gantrixx corporations take from open source, but don't give back
03:13 stevan gantrixx: thats not always true
03:13 audreyt gantrixx: want a commit bit? :)
03:13 gantrixx when was the last time you heard of a company hiring a developer to simply contribute for all that they have taken
03:13 SamB the great thing about open source is also that it is often done in spare time
03:13 stevan there is a lot of corprate sponsorship behind linux these days
03:14 stevan and I do much of my pugs work on company time with full permission of my boss
03:14 SamB so, you are more motivated to do something nice
03:14 gantrixx who do you work for?
03:14 audreyt bbiab
03:14 stevan gantrixx: we are a small consulting firm, and we build LAMP apps for corporate clients
03:15 gantrixx uhg, PHP
03:15 stevan no perl
03:15 stevan no PHP
03:15 gantrixx oh very good then
03:15 SamB why would you hire someone just for that? if you didn't think you would benefit from what they did, directly or otherwise?
03:15 gantrixx I never understood why PHP existed when we have mod_perl
03:16 stevan our clients know that they are getting high quality software with little or no lisence cost,.. and they understand that in order to sustain that we open source as much of our stuff as possible
03:16 stevan gantrixx: PHP has it's place
03:16 stevan its an ugly dark place,..  but it has it's place ;)
03:16 SamB and that is... nightmares?
03:17 gantrixx I view it this way, if a company uses SVN instead of ClearCase to save USD $100K, maybe they should at least donate $30K or so to the development of SVN
03:17 stevan SamB: if you need it quick, and cheap,.. and maintaince is not a concern,.. then PHP is for you
03:17 SamB well, if they use SVN, they are likely to gain from improvements
03:17 stevan gantrixx: well, we are too small to give $$, so we give time
03:18 SamB stevan: $$ == time!
03:18 stevan I think this is a fair trade
03:18 gantrixx Hmmm....I'm very pro-open-source, but ClearCase is far more mature than SVN
03:18 stevan SamB: yes very true :)
03:18 SamB only if you give time, you don't need to pay more money
03:18 SamB you just get less other stuff for it
03:18 gantrixx but ClearCase is often much more than you really need
03:19 stevan SamB: what "other stuff"?
03:19 gantrixx I agree, if you allow an employee to spend 20% of his time giving back to the open-source community, that is a great contribution
03:19 stevan gantrixx: it makes business sense too
03:19 stevan we use DBI on *every* project
03:20 stevan so my boss didnt hesitate to let me do some Phalanx work on DBI
03:20 gantrixx yes, but business people don't always see the business sense in it....they are a little more quarterly report oriented
03:20 stevan gantrixx: yes, on high levels that is true, but some small managers do understand the benefits
03:21 SamB okay.
03:21 SamB so you get less money. maybe.
03:22 stevan gantrixx: and there are many OSS success stories out there now too
03:23 stevan SamB: less money? how? I am not understanding
03:23 gantrixx yes, I agree.  OSS is now being embraced by the corporate world
03:23 scook0 audreyt: (when you get back)  I'm looking to get back into Pugs/Haskell after months of being slack; any TODOs you can recommend?
03:23 gantrixx however, we need to take it to the next stage where corporations give back too
03:23 SamB stevan: well.
03:23 SamB if you assume that coding non-OSS directly results in you getting money.
03:24 stevan gantrixx: many business people are starting to realize that infastructure software (OS, web servers, etc) are not profitable products
03:24 gantrixx To be honest, I don't think software is a profit product
03:24 SamB but, there is this wonderful thing about writing patches.
03:24 SamB other people are always improving on them
03:24 gantrixx like Eric Raymond said, "it's widget frosting"
03:24 stevan gantrixx: me either :) but I am a consultant
03:25 gantrixx it basically is a tool to allow you to deliver/serve your core product better
03:25 stevan SamB: ahh, I see, we charge by the project usually,.. and that cost usually includes work that gets open sourced
03:25 SamB ah
03:25 SamB yeah. makes sense.
03:25 stevan gantrixx: dont forget that contributing to non-profit orgs are tax deductable
03:25 SamB but lots of peoples thinking doesn't ;-)
03:26 stevan SamB: :)
03:26 SamB stevan: even contributions of labour?
03:26 gantrixx so I can put an hourly rate to the time I spend contributing to OS projects and deduct that from my taxes?
03:26 stevan SamB: we charge our clients for the final delivered product
03:26 gantrixx will you guys still chat with me when I'm in the federal jail?
03:27 SamB gantrixx: that depends
03:27 stevan if in order to build that product we build some OSS first, then it all works out
03:27 SamB do you get to use IRC when you are in jail?
03:27 stevan gantrixx: ask your accountant,.. you might be able to
03:27 SamB if so, you'd probably get out early for using too much bandwidth
03:27 stevan seriously
03:27 stevan contributing to charity is deductable
03:29 stevan SamB: but we tend to subcontract, so we work with technical managers who understand all this :)
03:30 stevan plus I sell in the "many eyes find more bugs" part of OSS pretty hard ;)
03:32 stevan gantrixx: http://www.tgci.com/magazine/02spring/tax.asp :)
03:33 SamB I suppose what you should sell is the part where they don't have to maintain the code after
03:33 stevan SamB: we tend to maintain the code actually (long term contracts ++)
03:33 SamB hmm.
03:33 SamB so they won't have to pay you as much to maintain it, then?
03:34 gantrixx thanks stevan, I'll talk to my accountant about it
03:34 stevan gantrixx: worth a try :)
03:34 SamB if it doesn't work, you can officially announce that the taxmen don't think time == money
03:35 stevan SamB: it all depends,. every case is different
03:35 stevan and we rarely can OS the bulk of the app, only modules we use within it
03:36 stevan in fact all my CPAN modules were at some point parts of an application
03:36 stevan or were written to anticipate a need in a particular project
03:41 stevan and like I said,.. we discuss this with our clients, and explain to them the benefits of OSS and that if we build thier application out of reusable parts, it makes it easier for us to extend/refactor/enhance the application to suit their needs
03:42 stevan but as a business we favor long term involvement/partnerships over quicky projects  
03:48 avar mm
03:48 avar will the perl6 perl6 compiler be fast enough so that you could write stuff like Digest::MD5 in pure perl?
03:49 * SamB hands avar a blocked MVar
03:49 SamB that is, an empty MVar
03:49 stevan avar: sure, if its compiled well
03:50 stevan if you use unboxed types, and your compiler is agressive in it's optimizations its quite possible
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03:59 stevan audreyt: ping (when you have a second)
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04:56 azuroth is there some way to say, you've got a class, and you want it to implement SomeInterface, but you want it to implement it through a member function so that $b.foo() is like method foo() {$member.foo()}
05:10 tewk stevan: I've got some spare tuits, what needs work with respect to the mini-language?
05:10 SamB tewk: are they round ones?
05:11 tewk SamB: yep :)
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06:21 aufrank hello!
06:22 wolverian good morning
06:23 aufrank mind if I ask a question about building pugs from a svn checkout?
06:24 wolverian ask away
06:24 aufrank I'm on OSX
06:25 aufrank I've got ghc 6.4
06:25 aufrank I built happy
06:25 aufrank I built hsx
06:25 aufrank I built hs-plugins
06:25 aufrank but when I do perl Makefile.pl for pugs
06:27 aufrank it tells me that I need to ranlib on haskell-exts
06:27 aufrank ld: archive: /usr/local/lib/haskell-src-exts-​0.2/libHShaskell-src-exts-0.2.a has no table of contents, add one with ranlib(1) (can't load from it)
06:29 aufrank oops
06:29 aufrank lemme try ranlib on that file
06:29 aufrank that's a good first step, eh?
06:29 azuroth teehee
06:30 * aufrank crosses fingers
06:30 petdance has joined #perl6
06:32 aufrank it's never until you've asked the quesiton that makes you look like an idiot that you realize you're an idiot ;)
06:32 aufrank s/question/quesiton/
06:33 aufrank well, good thing I signed on
06:34 aufrank otherwise I wouldn't've noticed I'm a dolt :)
06:34 wolverian phew, it's good helping people :)
06:37 aufrank you're my hero!
06:41 aufrank oh man, look, there it is on google too!
06:41 aufrank I rule!
06:42 azuroth what is?
06:44 aufrank instructions for building on OSX that say "I don't know why, but I had to do sudo ranlib /usr/local/lib/plugins-0.9​.10/libHSplugins-0.9.10.a"
06:44 aufrank by "I rule!" I meant "look how silly I am"
06:50 svnbot6 r8503 | tewk++ | Makefile.PL - added support for parrot_config.pir
06:50 svnbot6 r8503 | tewk++ |   The parrot team has renamed all imc references to pir
07:20 gaal morning
07:20 obra morning
07:25 gaal audreyt: got a minute for some FFI questions?
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07:46 aufrank hi again!
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08:22 aufrank is there a way to specify the location of my readline libs on the command line after 'perl Makefile.pl'?
08:24 tewk aufrank: what error are you getting?  I think Makefile.pl just checks to make sure the haskell readline works.
08:25 tewk You may need to go up the stack and make sure your ghc build knows where readline is.
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08:28 aufrank ok
08:28 aufrank I didn't build that one from source, but I guess I might have to if I want to add a non-standard directory for includes
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08:29 aufrank the error I got was "ld: can't locate file for: -lreadline"
08:32 tewk Your on OSX right have you tried setting the OS X eqiv of LD_LIBRARY_PATH?  I think it is DYLIB_somthing
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08:35 aufrank I know I had that set before... lemme see if it's still in my .profile
08:36 aufrank I think this is it: export DYLD_LIBRARY_PATH=/opt/svn-1.3.0-r​c4/lib:/sw/lib/:$DYLD_LIBRARY_PATH
08:43 aufrank that's a line from my .profile, and the readline libs are in /sw/lib.  so I think they're in the path for ld.
08:45 tewk Well that was just a suggestion off the top of my head.  I don't have happy, hsx or hs-plugins on my OS X box, just on my debian linux box.
08:45 tewk wq
08:46 aufrank it's no big deal
08:46 aufrank just trying to iron out as many kinks as I can in this install
08:47 aufrank was the wq meant for a vim session?
08:47 tewk I have a /usr/include/readline.h and /usr/lib/libreadline.dylib on OS X, not sure where they came from though, I've got a lot of stuff on this box.
08:49 aufrank yeah, it's tempting to just uninstall the fink libs and build them myself in /usr/local
08:49 tewk aufrank: yep  I keep irc on a seperate monitor and OS X doesn't have a good focus follows mouse solution yet :)  I'm still going through X on linux withdraws :)
08:49 aufrank heh
08:50 aufrank I did the same thing once, but unfortunately it was a password that carried over into an IM
08:51 aufrank anyway, I think I need to leave the fink readline libs in there because the fink packages are linked against them
08:51 aufrank and I don't know if multiple versions can live happily in different places on the same box
08:51 tewk Multiple version at different places shouldn't be a problem.
08:52 tewk I've got fink, darwinports and a system version of readline
08:52 aufrank good to know
08:52 aufrank I think I'm going to have to deal with that tomorrow, though
08:52 aufrank time for bed
08:53 aufrank actually, do you have a committer bit?
08:53 tewk yep
08:53 aufrank want a quick project?  the last commit is a little bit broken
08:53 aufrank it changed Makefile.pl
08:54 tewk That was me!, I did it from linux and I just tried it on OS X, you've got a patch :)
08:55 aufrank are you asking if I have a patch for you?  I don't
08:55 tewk Yeah,  what your bug, I'll see what I can do.
08:56 aufrank "Use of uninitialized value in concatenation (.) or string at Makefile.PL line 627."
08:56 tewk Yeah I'm looking at that sorry.
08:57 aufrank is it that which() searches in $PATH and not in $PARROT_PATH?
08:57 aufrank line 282
08:57 aufrank because parrot-config.imc lives in $PARROT_PATH, but $PATH holds ${PARROT_PATH}/bin
08:59 aufrank am I making any sense?
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09:01 tewk Yes, the code at 298 does the real work, parrot_config_imc shouldn't be in the path at all.  I think the previous author was trying to code for the eventuall existance of a parrot_config executable
09:01 aufrank I see.
09:02 tewk That's my guess.
09:04 aufrank so $parrot_config should be undefined in the conditional at 298, since there's not an executable in the path
09:05 aufrank but gets defined as long as there's a parrot-config.imc in $PARROT_PATH
09:05 tewk Yeah
09:06 aufrank so now I'm confused-- what's ending up undefined at 627?
09:06 tewk I'm just about to find out.
09:07 aufrank (I guess the smart money's on either $parrot or $config, since we just eliminated $parrot_config)
09:10 tewk Sorry I'm a little slow I just realized i ran make realclean in parrot and didn't rebuild
09:11 aufrank I reckon that would slow you down ;)
09:12 aufrank maybe I have it though
09:12 aufrank line 312
09:12 aufrank single quotes, but the variable should be interpolated, right?
09:15 tewk that single quote should only be around the inc, thats it
09:15 tewk :q
09:16 aufrank don't you quit on me now, tewk!
09:16 tewk fix and testing, checkin coming
09:17 aufrank heh
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09:19 aufrank at this rate maybe I'll actually use my committer bit before the new year!
09:19 tewk Thanks for the find.  That qualifies you for a commiters bit.  Ping audreyt.  Hey they gave me one.  It doesn't take much :)
09:20 aufrank he actually already gave me one
09:20 aufrank I just haven't had the guts to commit yet
09:21 aufrank I talked to him about concurrency back when he was drafting S17, and he gave me one then
09:21 tewk Well I just committed, which means the possibility for another bug :)
09:21 aufrank that's right, I'm watching you, tewk
09:21 aufrank grrrr
09:22 tewk wait a second,  I don't have my auth info on the mac and I forgot my openfoundry passwd
09:22 aufrank yah?
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09:26 tewk Ok it's in.  svnbot must be asleep.
09:26 svnbot6 r8504 | tewk++ | typo fix
09:27 tewk I introduce bugs like that just so I can inflate my karma.
09:27 aufrank well I'll do my best to steal the next one from you.
09:27 * Khisanth inverts tewk's karma
09:29 aufrank ok, now it's really goodnight for me
09:29 aufrank thanks all
09:29 geoffb Thanks for the fix, tewk
09:29 * geoffb does his first build in months
09:29 geoffb Insomnia ... is there *anything* it can't do?
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09:29 aufrank get my term paper written, apparently ;)
09:30 aufrank zing!
09:30 aufrank thanks folks, I'm here all week.  Tip your waiters!
09:30 geoffb *chuckle*
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09:44 Alias_ ping?
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09:46 geoffb Ah, an up to date, working Pugs.  My soul is ever so slightly happier.
09:47 Alias_ Does pugs/Perl6/etc have a package installation method yet?
09:47 Alias_ Something akin to C< perl Makefile.PL; make; make test; make install >
09:48 geoffb Um ... exactly that, in fact
09:48 Alias_ put pugs itself, bug pugs packages
09:48 Alias_ Or is it all still glommed in
09:49 geoffb Judging by the output from my last make install, I'd say a lot of stuff is carried along.
09:49 geoffb But then, I've been away for a couple months.
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10:08 gaal yo geoffb, Alias_.
10:09 geoffb g'day, gaal
10:09 geoffb howya?
10:09 gaal not too shabby!
10:09 gaal and you?
10:09 geoffb Pretty good!
10:11 * gaal puzzles over include paths keeping him from puzzling over FFI
10:12 nnunley Trying to do FFI in pugs by bridging over to the NCI stuff in parrot?
10:14 gaal no, no. just a .yaml emitter.
10:14 gaal but for some reason -Isrc/cbits isn't making it into the makefile rule
10:15 gaal and I don't know where's the correct place to add it.
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10:23 gaal is 83 C too hot for a CPU?
10:28 Khisanth hmm depends on the CPU :)
10:29 gaal intel p4 pencost 3ghz
10:30 gaal s/pencost/whatever it's really called/
10:30 gaal prescott
10:30 gaal it died on me before...
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10:44 nnunley http://www.digit-life.com/articles/​pentium4athlonxpthermalmanagement/
10:44 nnunley Looks like it's probably too hot in your case.
10:44 Aankh|Clone is now known as Aankhen``
10:47 gaal looks like I have to do some underclocking.
10:48 nnunley Anything blocking airflow in your case?
10:49 geoffb gaal, I wouldn't think that would be necessary unless you have a very hot case, or your thermal paste / thermal tape is crappy
10:49 gaal nope. the other sensor registers 19 C
10:50 gaal not that I know where it's located.
10:50 geoffb (or your heatsink isn't fully pressure-locked to the chip)
10:52 gaal the hot sensor gives readings that fluctuate a lot (10 C). I'm not sure how accurate it is.
10:54 wolverian 19C is very low. sure that sensor is connected? :
10:54 wolverian s,$,),
10:57 gaal i think i'll let the computer cool down a bit and go play with the cat. &
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11:06 svnbot6 r8505 | asavige++ | RPN example in p5/p6/Haskell
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13:14 xah hi guys, may i ask a personal q?
13:15 xah how much do you charge for building a whole estore website?
13:16 Alias_ Totally depends on how custom it needs to be
13:16 Alias_ And thus how many hours
13:22 Southen_ has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
13:22 xah Alias_: a average estore website.
13:22 xah for small merchant
13:22 xah nothing really particular,
13:22 xah just need a way to input inventory,
13:22 xah using HTML interface and also CVS upload,
13:23 buu has joined #perl6
13:23 xah and check out area where people can put things in cart and checkout,
13:23 xah register new account if new,
13:23 xah and be able to trcak of course current status,
13:24 xah also discount with coupon field if user has it,
13:24 azuroth I'm assuming you don't want to just use an existing oss one?
13:24 xah and be able to show a log of users who started but didn't complete checkout.
13:24 xah azuroth: existing one? like what?
13:25 azuroth hmm. I remember seeing one written in PHP. can't think of its name, though
13:25 xah i didn't know there's existing estore code...
13:25 xah i'm planning to built in myself, probably with php,
13:25 azuroth there has to be, how many e-stores are there?
13:26 xah and i'm thinking 3 weeks.
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14:58 svnbot6 r8506 | audreyt++ | * Beginning to port PIL.Native.Parser to Text.Parser.Rule.
14:58 svnbot6 r8506 | audreyt++ | * Much more thorough Rules support:
14:58 svnbot6 r8506 | audreyt++ |     - capturing, non-capturing and negated subrules
14:58 svnbot6 r8506 | audreyt++ |     - positional and named captures
14:58 svnbot6 r8506 | audreyt++ |     - greedy and lazy quantifiers
14:58 svnbot6 r8506 | audreyt++ |     - backtracking
14:58 svnbot6 r8506 | audreyt++ |     - character classes and character escapes
15:07 svnbot6 r8507 | audreyt++ | * proper support for mutually recursive subrules.
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15:20 Alias_ mutually recursive subrules?
15:20 Alias_ Sounds scary
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15:28 audreyt rule foo { foo <bar> }; rule bar { bar <foo> }
15:28 audreyt or, more likely:
15:28 audreyt rule foo { foo <bar>? }; rule bar { bar <foo>? }
15:28 audreyt dinner, bbiab &
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15:41 Alias_ right
15:41 Alias_ Still sounds scary
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16:13 Alias_ audreyt: ping?
16:13 Alias_ Trouble in M:I land...
16:18 anatolyv if audreyt or anyone else who can help my rt.openfoundry registration problem is around, that'd be great too.
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18:13 aufrank hello!
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18:25 svnbot6 r8508 | audreyt++ | * Bootstrap.pil is now compiled as part of "make pil"/"make pili".
18:25 Aankh|Clone has joined #perl6
18:25 theorbtwo "make pili"?
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18:26 audreyt like "make ghci"
18:26 audreyt anatolyv: I'll look at the rt.openfoundry.org thing in a moment.
18:26 aufrank can you all check something for me?
18:27 aufrank do you have a ${PARROT_PATH}/blib ?
18:27 anatolyv audreyt: thanks!
18:27 aufrank I don't in my tree for 0.4.0
18:27 audreyt I do
18:27 aufrank and it broke the build process for me because $PARROT_PATH/blib is in the includes in Makefile.pl
18:27 svnbot6 r8509 | audreyt++ | * Text.Parser.Rule: Squash -Wall warnings.
18:27 audreyt but it's created only afte r"make" I think
18:28 aufrank audreyt: the stock 0.4.0, or a recent checkout?
18:28 audreyt a recent checkout
18:28 aufrank audreyt: I did make and make install-- is there any reason that it would be made but not installed?
18:29 * aufrank looks
18:30 audreyt hm, not sure... try irc.perl.org #parrot?
18:30 aufrank I have blib in /usr/local/src/parrot-0.4.0, which is where I made everythign
18:30 aufrank but not /usr/local/parrot
18:30 audreyt right
18:30 aufrank where everything installed
18:30 aufrank I'll go check over there
18:30 aufrank thanks
18:30 audreyt because blib/ is the list of things to be installed
18:30 audreyt normally perl doesn't install blib/ as blib/
18:30 audreyt but rather blib/* as *
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18:31 aufrank so should Makefile.PL really be trying to include blib?
18:31 svnbot6 r8510 | audreyt++ | * PIL.Native: The first container type, ::Scalar, lands!
18:31 svnbot6 r8510 | audreyt++ |     $ ./pil -e '::Scalar`new_opaque(3).STORE(9).FETCH()'
18:31 svnbot6 r8510 | audreyt++ |     ### Evaluated ###
18:31 svnbot6 r8510 | audreyt++ |     9
18:31 svnbot6 r8510 | audreyt++ | * PIL.Native: Proper .is_a(::Object) support for autoboxed
18:31 svnbot6 r8510 | audreyt++ |   types and ::Scalar types.  Also "Int" is now internally a
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18:31 svnbot6 r8510 | audreyt++ |   Haskell "Integer" type with BigInt capabilities.
18:31 aufrank audreyt: is that a scalar in PILN?
18:32 audreyt aufrank: yes.
18:32 aufrank congrats!
18:32 aufrank very exciting
18:32 audreyt thanks! :)
18:32 aufrank (did stevan have a perl5 metamodel for you this morning?)
18:32 audreyt no... so I got distracted and implemented subrule captures and backtracking for Text.Parser.Rules
18:33 r0nny has joined #perl6
18:33 aufrank slacker :P
18:33 audreyt :p
18:34 geoffb Speaking of parrot embedding build problems ... my PARROT_PATH ends in 'svk/parrot-trunk', and when I go to install, I see an error about '.../svk/parrot doesn't exist or isn't a directory ...' from ghc-pkg
18:35 geoffb This is an old bug, as it existed a couple of months ago when I last had a chance to build.  :-)
18:35 aufrank geoffb: I'm aimin' to maybe do my first commit with some Makefile.pl changes
18:35 aufrank I'll look at that one too
18:35 geoffb aufrank, cool, thanks
18:36 Alias_ audreyt: Do you have a perl Makefile.PL etc equivalent yet for pugs/perl6?
18:36 Alias_ audreyt: Also, getting bug reports that the new M:I version kills Cygwin
18:36 Alias_ ... support
18:36 tewk M:I ?
18:37 Alias_ Module::Install
18:37 audreyt Alias_: first question is "not yet" -- we piggyback on p5 M::I currently
18:37 audreyt Alias_: second question is "aww". url?
18:37 Alias_ http://rt.cpan.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=16810
18:37 Alias_ # Similar reports for other people
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18:38 audreyt k, looking
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18:43 stevan audreyt: ping
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18:55 audreyt stevan: pong
18:55 stevan audreyt: :)
18:55 audreyt yo :)
18:55 stevan I am looking over the code right now
18:56 audreyt ok. I overloaded `new_opaque
18:56 stevan so is PIL^N now parsed with p6 rules?
18:56 audreyt the idea is that each class object can dictate their own layout
18:56 audreyt independent of the :repr
18:56 audreyt or rather, totally ignoring :repr
18:56 audreyt it may take :repr as an argument later
18:56 stevan audreyt: cool, we needed that too since we need to support hash/array/cstruct/pydict
18:56 audreyt not at all sure about what to do with that
18:56 audreyt yup
18:57 geoffb Where should I be looking for most up to date specs on language?  Still P6::Bible on CPAN?
18:57 stevan geoffb: yes, there have been several recent updates
18:57 aufrank geoffb: I checkout a copy of the docs from svn
18:57 geoffb Yeah, since I've been away for 2-3 months, I expect it's best just to read again from scratch
18:57 audreyt stevan: it's not yet using Rules... took me a while to implement the subrule capture
18:57 geoffb aufrank, SVN repo url?
18:58 aufrank http://svn.perl.org/perl6/doc
18:58 audreyt stevan: if you'd like you can try porting stuff in src/PIL/Native/Parser.hs
18:58 geoffb aufrank, thanks
18:58 stevan audreyt: ok, but that is the plan correct?
18:58 audreyt or other rules-happy people could
18:58 audreyt stevan: yes
18:58 audreyt anatolyv: check your mail again
18:58 stevan audreyt: I am not a rule-type-person , so I will leave it for the more qualified
18:59 audreyt nod
18:59 tewk audreyt: I'll take a shot at porting to rules
18:59 aufrank question:
18:59 geoffb Oh man, are there really 7K doc revisions?!?
18:59 audreyt tewk: ooh, thanks
18:59 stevan audreyt: so as far as autoboxing,.. I have compiled a list of all the "types" I found in the recent Syns
18:59 geoffb Oh phew, sparse
18:59 aufrank I just got confirmed from the parrot folks that our include lines in Makefile.pl are correct for an uninstalled parrot
19:00 audreyt tewk: look at src/PIL/Native/Parser.hs and fill in the "miniLang" part
19:00 aufrank should we tell people that PARROT_PATH should point to the uninstalled parrot
19:00 audreyt tewk: there's a documentation primer as comment right afterwards; then there's the haskell Parsec implementation
19:00 anatolyv audreyt: nothing yet, should I be getting another verification email?
19:00 audreyt which should be self explanatory
19:00 aufrank or should we add checks to Makefile.pl to handle both the cases of installed and uninstalled parrot?
19:00 audreyt tewk: don't worry about generating terms; just getting them parsed is sufficient
19:00 tewk audreyt: Ok
19:01 audreyt anatolyv: yes. you are avorobey at pobox, right?
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19:01 tewk aufrank: I think the code attempts to do both, but it probably needs some rework.
19:01 aufrank (parrot people say just use the uninstalled)
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19:01 audreyt aufrank: the latter if you can manage it; the former for now
19:02 anatolyv audreyt: yes. Got it. Going through the motions.
19:02 aufrank tewk: my build of pugs died last night because there was no blib in my install directory, but it's listed in the libraries
19:02 audreyt excellent
19:02 audreyt stevan: I have another full hacking day tomorrow
19:02 tewk aufrank: Got it, making the connections.
19:02 audreyt and it's 3am, so I should journal a bit and sleep :)
19:03 aufrank tewk: leo just confirmed that $embed_flags .= " -I$base/include -L$base/blib/lib -DPUGS_HAVE_PARROT -L$base/blib/lib -L/usr/local/lib $ldflags ";
19:03 aufrank is only correct for the uninstalled version
19:03 stevan audreyt: cool, I will be back more after the new year
19:03 aufrank (line 321)
19:03 audreyt stevan: yay :)
19:03 stevan in the meantime I will keep trying to find "types" and figure out what we need to build
19:04 * aufrank types
19:04 aufrank did that help?
19:04 * stevan adds the aufrank type to the list
19:04 aufrank w00t!
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19:05 stevan aufrank: not sure if it will past muster on p6l though :P
19:06 anatolyv audreyt: confirmed the registration and was able to log in, thanks!
19:06 aufrank not much of what I say does ;)
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19:07 aufrank tewk: and now I see that the INSTALL file TELLS you to use the src/parrot/ and not the installed version
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19:07 aufrank so I was wrong and the code is fine and... bla
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19:10 tewk aufrank: Most serious parrot/pugs hackers are always bleeding on HEAD at this point.  Maybe a RT todo?  Does pugs use RT currently?  Best option, fix it to work with a installed parrot.
19:10 tewk If we break it later we will be forced to fix it :)
19:10 leo we have to fix a few things, before installing it is a good option
19:11 audreyt anatolyv: woot!
19:11 aufrank hey, look what I did-- now leo said something!  :)
19:11 leo I'm always with you ;-)
19:15 wolverian hm, parrot is apparently being optimised to be faster than python currently :)  leo++
19:16 wolverian (or was.)
19:16 audreyt Alias_: ping
19:16 Alias_ pong
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19:16 audreyt Alias_: can you rebuild Config::Tiny with trunk M::I
19:17 leo wolverian: some intermediate optimizations went in, yes just for the shootout
19:17 audreyt and tell JDHEDDEN to try again?
19:17 wolverian leo, it's just nice that I can now disuss performance with a python friend without being laughed at.. :)
19:18 audreyt Alias_: ...that is, after I finished committing
19:18 Alias_ ok
19:18 Alias_ Also, more docs changes in too
19:18 geoffb leo, wolverian: link?
19:18 leo we have to rework strings, but the math stufff is fine
19:18 Alias_ Culled out some stuff that's just out of date now
19:18 Alias_ Reread at your leisure
19:18 wolverian geoffb, http://groups.google.com/group/perl.perl6.interna​ls/tree/browse_frm/thread/a4cff1f015b466a5/9cd417​66ca1d83b1?rnum=1&amp;_done=%2Fgroup%2Fperl.perl6​.internals%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fthread%2Fa4cff1f015b466​a5%2F9cd41766ca1d83b1%3F#doc_9cd41766ca1d83b1
19:19 geoffb wolverian, thx
19:19 wolverian google, please fix your URLs. thanks.
19:20 leo http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/sandbo​x/benchmark.php?test=all&amp;lang=parrot
19:20 leo or just the sandbox page
19:20 geoffb leo, thx
19:21 audreyt Alias_: r70
19:21 leo some recent improvments aren't covered yet
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19:35 audreyt Alias_: cool, docs look nice
19:35 geoffb Hmmm, I think shootout's source printer needs to be taught that ' within a # comment in PIR does not start a new string: http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/sandbox/bench​mark.php?test=regexdna&amp;lang=parrot&amp;id=0
19:35 audreyt I need to crash now... see you all tomorrow :)
19:35 Alias_ I hope so... getting there slowly
19:35 audreyt *wave* &
19:36 aufrank audreyt: gnight!
19:36 geoffb And leo, good job.  How many of those optimizations that you made were improvements to Parrot, as opposed to just the test code?
19:36 geoffb audreyt, g'night!
19:38 leo geoffb: thanks. I just continued a few optimization thingies and did them a bit earlier as e.g. milestones would say, when these should be done
19:39 geoffb leo, ah, gotcha
19:40 leo there are some optimization hooks like PIC (polymorphic inline cache) which is kind of dynamic recompilation according to runtime actual data, and I've implemented a few opcodes for that
19:41 geoffb ah
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19:41 leo mainly to get function calls back to normal speed (or faster than it ever was ;-)
19:41 geoffb nodnod
19:42 leo it's still low priority for me, OTOH showing some results isn't bad either
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19:42 geoffb What state is Pugs -> PIR compilation in?  Do all Pugs-handled Perl 6 constructions result in working PIR at this point?
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19:43 geoffb leo, right, exactly.
19:43 leo e.g. just showing the potential: http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/sandbox​/benchmark.php?test=harmonic&amp;lang=all
19:44 leo pugs -> pir is currently being reworked (or in an early state)
19:44 geoffb OK, thx
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19:48 leo above harmonic timing is mostly due to an unoptimzed startup/init sequence, it's actually faster ;-)
19:48 leo the bench is running too short
19:52 geoffb That's damned cool that PIR is less than 40% slower than the top dog there.
19:53 geoffb That's pretty impressive.
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19:56 leo it's probably near ~20% now with svn head (I've removed some unneeded method cache invalidation in the startup sequence)
19:57 leo but the whole init sequence is still a bit slow
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19:57 geoffb nodnod
19:58 leo anyway - more realistic code 'pidigits' with PMCs and coroutines: http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/sandbox​/benchmark.php?test=pidigits&amp;lang=all
20:00 leo just statically compile langs ahead ;)
20:00 geoffb Very nice
20:01 geoffb Wow, D seems to fly
20:01 rep PMCs = performance monitoring coutners?
20:01 geoffb Parrot Magic Cookies
20:01 leo or just objects
20:02 leo D is really fast, yes
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21:14 avarab is now known as avar
21:24 avar Is some perl6 stuff being backported to perl5?
21:25 avar http://use.perl.org/article.pl?s​id=05/12/26/2033226&amp;from=rss
21:25 avar like ~~
21:25 Alias_ via C< use features; >
21:25 Alias_ It won't be enabled by default
21:25 avar ah
21:25 avar still kind of strange...
21:25 Alias_ sigh
21:25 Alias_ yes
21:26 avar the switch statement too apperently..
21:26 avar or, the pseudoswitch
21:26 Alias_ A real one
21:26 Alias_ but yes
21:26 avar given ...
21:26 Alias_ I think all the people attracted to shiny things were sort of left to do what they wanted once they promised not to play in the main language and keep everything fully back-compatible
21:29 avar ;)
21:30 avar any other stuff besides given & ~~ ?
21:30 Alias_ I certainly stopped fighting them
21:30 Alias_ Damian's say function
21:30 Alias_ What will probably be dor
21:30 avar mm
21:30 Alias_ The string version of //
21:30 avar what perl release will this be in?
21:30 avar use feature ...
21:30 Alias_ 5.9.3
21:31 avar use feature qw(say given ... ) ?
21:31 Alias_ dunno, haven't seen it
21:31 Alias_ Just fought in the war on the pro-backcompatible side
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21:38 aufrank Is gather/take borrowed from some other language?
21:38 aufrank none of the apos or syns really explain it
21:39 aufrank A12 says it's conjectural, and S06 and S09 both use it
21:39 aufrank but it's not explained on its own anywhere
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21:43 revdiablo aufrank: It's in there somewhere. Let me try to find it
21:43 * aufrank had no luck grepping
21:44 aufrank whoops, there it is in A12
21:45 revdiablo Ah, in the objects apoco... that makes sense, yeah
21:45 revdiablo =)
21:45 aufrank I persist in my belief that it's not in any synopsis, though
21:45 aufrank maybe it should be?
21:46 avar "since the purpose of the operator is to let you try out something, and if that doesn't work, get something else, then it should be called the Jagger-Richards operator, because you can't always get what you want, but you might find you get what you need."
21:46 revdiablo aufrank: I would think it probably should be somewhere else
21:46 revdiablo aufrank: But who am I? =)
21:47 aufrank are you saying you think it exists elsewhere and we haven't found it?  or that you agree that it should be documented in more than A12?  or that it shouldn't be in a synopsis?
21:47 * aufrank is confused :)
21:48 revdiablo aufrank: I'm saying it should be documented somewhere else, and also should be in that somewhere else's corresponding synopsis
21:48 aufrank gotcha
21:52 aufrank looks like lwall is the maintainer for S12... maybe I'll write and ask him
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22:18 leo geoffb: still about?
22:18 geoffb leo: yep
22:18 leo I compared pidigits here again:
22:18 leo parrot 0.25s
22:18 leo python 0.96
22:19 leo amd X2@2000 w 512 K cache
22:19 geoffb w00t
22:19 geoffb very nice
22:19 leo that'll be 2nd pos in the list ;-)
22:20 geoffb :-)
22:20 leo these benches probably are very cpu dependent, though, or some at least
22:21 geoffb still, nice to see parrot doing so well.
22:21 leo yup - I like that
22:22 Alias_ leo: How are you doing platform testing atm?
22:22 leo pdcawley: http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/sandbox​/benchmark.php?test=pidigits&amp;lang=all
22:22 leo (was the topic)
22:23 leo Alias_: we have a smoke server collecting available results coming from folks doing 'make smoke'
22:23 Alias_ hmm
22:24 * Alias_ ponders
22:24 leo plus the usual reports on the list of course
22:24 Alias_ What sort of testing domensions to you need?
22:25 leo well, a regular test run on *all* platforms would be nice ;)
22:25 Alias_ what are the platforms...
22:25 Alias_ CPU-based? CPU+OS?
22:25 Alias_ CPU+OS+Dist?
22:26 leo $parrot_svn_trunk/PLATFORMS might be a good beginning
22:26 Alias_ Got a full URL for that? I've never looked at Parrot before
22:26 Alias_ Two levels below where I normally work
22:27 petdance has joined #perl6
22:28 leo $ svn cat https://svn.perl.org/parrot/trunk/PLATFORMS
22:29 leo and
22:29 leo http://smoke.parrotcode.org/smoke/
22:29 Alias_ leo: I think we can handle about 2/3rd of that
22:30 leo 'we' is who in that case (sorry that I've to ask)?
22:30 Alias_ http://ali.as/pita/
22:31 Alias_ irc.perl.org/#pita
22:31 leo ah
22:31 leo I've seen that recently (or read about it)
22:32 Alias_ It's not formally announced yet, but I'm slowing bouncing it off more people
22:32 Alias_ brb
22:37 buu evalbot_8502: join #perl
22:37 buu ?join #perl
22:38 buu STUPID. BOTS.
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22:49 _tcc has joined #perl6
22:49 _tcc Can I get some help reading a file into a hash?
22:51 justatheory has quit IRC ()
22:51 integral into a hash?  You'd have to process it a bit before you could do that.  Files are normally streams of byte or characters first, and then arrays of lines, and perl has builtin things for both of those,  but beyond that you've got to add your own code first...
22:51 _tcc I am pasting the code into #perlcafe
22:51 _tcc I've done this before.
22:52 _tcc I rm'd the project and I forgot how to do it.
22:52 integral perlcafe?
22:52 _tcc yes
22:52 integral cool, I didn't realise they were more perl6 people.   Neat
22:53 Alias_ back
22:53 Alias_ leo: So yeah, Maddingue is our sysadmin image wrangler
22:53 Amnesiac Alias_!
22:54 Alias_ And each image should be able to handle multiple "install schemes"
22:54 leo you got the hardware? the testing software? all?
22:54 Alias_ "perl5" (auto), "perl5-make", "perl5-build", "perl6" (whatever that is)
22:54 Maddingue uh?
22:54 Alias_ * Maddingue downloads a few ISOs to prepare disk images
22:55 Maddingue oops, yeah :)
22:55 Alias_ leo: We are using virtualised hardware
22:55 Alias_ leo: And I'm pulling the software together
22:56 Alias_ So far the reporting XML/code is done, image launching is mostly there, and I just finished the report capture server
22:56 Alias_ leo: So some stuff to do the actual running of the testing schemes, and maybe some image-management code, and we should be ready to start generating reports
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22:57 leo well, a virtualized VMS test is better than none (not that parrot will even compile, ...) - but is the same as one a real machine?
22:57 Alias_ leo: That's up to VMWare/Qemu/Bochs to work out
22:57 leo ok
22:57 Alias_ Some of them do have arch-testing kits though
22:57 Alias_ That exercise every operation for the arch
22:58 leo great stuff anyway
22:58 Alias_ Seems a bit ad-hoc for now, but it's a start
22:58 leo yeah
22:58 Alias_ What's your testing scheme look like
22:58 Alias_ The sequence of instructions
22:59 leo I'd like to delegate further talks about that to involved parrot folks
22:59 Alias_ You aren't involved in parrot? :)
22:59 leo (I'm the poor man that just tries to manage some of that stuff ;)
22:59 Alias_ But, you must have run the smoke before once right
22:59 leo and staff
22:59 Maddingue uh, for VMS, Qemu cannot help
23:00 Alias_ For example, the "perl-make" scheme is C< perl Makefile.PL; make; make test; >
23:00 Maddingue you need specific emulator and a licenced copy of the system
23:00 leo forget vms for now when parrot is involved at least ;)
23:00 Maddingue though there are ways to get that
23:00 Maddingue plus there's a monger who proposed access to VMS systems for tsting Perl stuff
23:01 Maddingue he did a LT at Belfast about that
23:01 Alias_ And if it takes a little while to get proxying working, it shouldn't matter too much
23:01 leo Alias_: could you come other to #parrot at irc.pobox.com for a moment - some folks that do a lot of testing are here
23:01 Alias_ pobox is it's own network?
23:02 geoffb Alias_, yes.
23:05 integral umm, pobox is just MagNet (inc. irc.perl.org)
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23:06 geoffb integral, right, I meant, it's not in Freenode.
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23:07 * Alias_ already has 8 magnet channels open
23:07 integral *nod* it's just that alias's #pita is on magnet
23:07 geoffb gotcha
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