Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-01-08

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:31 PJF Somewhat off-topicly, for but the antipodeans in the room, http://perl.net.au/ is coming off beta soon, and discussions are held in #PerlNet .
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05:06 audreyt nnunley: say again?
05:07 audreyt nnunley: what are you trying to do with parrows?
05:07 audreyt rafl: YAML 0.49_70 is on CPAN; I think 0.50 will be released in this hackathon
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06:15 * audreyt goes to zhubei for hackathon &
06:17 gaal have fun!
06:18 audreyt :))
06:18 audreyt gaal: how's YAML::Syck? will you (or did you) have cycles to work on that for the next ~4hrs
06:18 audreyt if not I'll give it a go
06:19 gaal I have something that should work but doesn't :(
06:19 gaal on two counts it doesn't:
06:20 gaal 1. the perlapi isn't returning the right blesstype (obviously i'm using it wrongly)
06:20 gaal 2. the tag isn't emitted, though I'm doing the same thing as in .Hs!
06:20 gaal I
06:20 gaal 'll send you the patch; I have to go to $work now
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06:22 gaal btw, the implicit "e" arg in the .hs source was very useful for me for learning, but I think of maybe putting it back to an explicit arg because it isn't doing something special there and someone who didn't follow your lesson might find it confusing :)
06:26 gaal sent
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06:30 gaal also, I was wondering if there was a golfier way to patmatch against records? the last change meant some of the code looks a lot clumsier :(
06:31 audreyt ok, please mail me the patch
06:31 audreyt like, in 5mins, if possible :)
06:31 audreyt yeah, the implicit ?e should go
06:31 audreyt oh, I didn't parse the "sent"
06:32 audreyt patmatch against records is verbose since hs doesn't have punning; but you can match it asif it's positional.
06:32 audreyt i.e. for data Foo = MkFoo { foo :: Int, bar :: Int }
06:32 audreyt you can patmatch it as
06:32 audreyt f (MkFoo x y) = ...
06:32 audreyt totally ignoring the label bit
06:33 audreyt also, YAML's emitting of undef as completely null
06:33 audreyt is valid and legal
06:33 gaal really?
06:33 audreyt yup
06:33 audreyt checked with ingy
06:33 gaal interesting. but I like ~ better (visual cue)
06:34 gaal please tell me if you got it, sometimes my outgoing mail sucks.
06:34 audreyt it's a matter of taste
06:34 audreyt I got it
06:34 audreyt ok, gotta run now
06:34 audreyt ciao!
06:34 gaal ok (anyway the tick with null is parsing it, too :-)
06:34 gaal enjoy
06:36 gaal positional patmatches feel like tighter coupling than is warranted.. is there a meta-_ character that means "I don't care about the rest of the positional fields?"
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08:20 nnunley audreyt: I'm trying to get the -g option working under PIL.
08:35 gaal (not that named field changes don't change the ABI... but at least that only requires recompilation, not source code changes)
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10:58 gaal audreyt: so, emitting the tag doesn't work because we (oughtta) find out the blessing at the reference level, but that's where we hit 'case SVt_RV' and immediately recurse into perl_syck_emitter_handler again. too bad there's no way to pass an implicit arg here too :)
10:59 gaal as for why sv_reftype returns 'REF' and not the blessed class... I'm still pondering that
11:01 gaal ugh, an ugly hack is to take advantage of the fact we have a void pointer and pass a struct with the class tag in the case of a blessed reference, and a real SV in the other cases. the handler can look for a magic cookie to determine what input it received. I don't believe I just suggested this.
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11:16 gaal ...memory management of this is simple at least; it can all be done with an automatic variable
11:45 audreyt gaal: yo
11:45 audreyt I've fixed the tag problem
11:46 audreyt via extra emitter bonus field
11:46 * clkao waits for miyagawa
11:47 audreyt clkao: @ airport?
11:48 clkao hai
11:59 nnunley Konnichi wa clkao-san
11:59 gaal ah, the bonus field is certainly the right way to do it :)
11:59 gaal but did you find out why the sv_reftype was being weird?
11:59 clkao nnunley: nihao
12:00 gaal wow, I actually understood what you said.
12:00 nnunley About the most Japanese that I can write. :/
12:00 audreyt gaal: yes, sv_retype should test the SvRV
12:00 gaal nihao's in Chinese, and I got that too :)
12:00 audreyt not the sv itself
12:01 audreyt now, the hash style thing, I still don't have a clue.
12:01 clkao audreyt: i need gugod's address
12:01 gaal there's an enum, maybe we just need a different value?
12:01 gaal or does that control inlining?
12:02 audreyt clkao: 勝利五路31號
12:02 clkao cant resad
12:02 audreyt gaal: I have no idea
12:02 audreyt clkao: they are html
12:02 clkao orz
12:02 gaal hmmm magic is stored in the hash, not the reference. ok, makes sense
12:03 gaal so the bless keyword is highly magical
12:03 gaal i mean of course it is
12:03 gaal but more so than obvious
12:03 audreyt perl -e 'print "\x{52dd}\x{5229}\x{4e94}\x{8def}31\x{865f}"'
12:03 audreyt clkao: better?
12:03 clkao ya got it already
12:03 audreyt gaal: svn up http://svn.kwiki.org/audreyt/YAML-Syck/
12:03 gaal and address is five characters? so cool
12:05 gaal wah!?
12:05 gaal *** glibc detected *** double free or corruption (fasttop): 0x082cd2c0 ***
12:05 gaal at the end of 'make'
12:06 audreyt yeah, there might be an double free going on
12:06 gaal urp, not at the end of make, at runtime.
12:06 clkao got him!!
12:07 audreyt attempted a fix.
12:07 audreyt clkao: oooh!
12:07 gaal Safefree == ?
12:07 audreyt gaal: Safefree = free
12:07 clkao audreyt: dinner yet?
12:07 audreyt see r67
12:07 audreyt clkao: I ate a lot of cookies
12:07 audreyt clkao: gugod went out to buy some food material
12:07 audreyt but not proper dinner yet
12:07 clkao oh ok. so we will see meet you directly
12:08 audreyt ingy's working on releasing YAML 0.50 -- we've got the callback API figured out and YAML::Syck is going to roundtrip well with taguri
12:08 audreyt yup
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12:09 Alias_ Anyone know who set up the logging bot?
12:10 leo obra: ping
12:12 gaal audreyt: can't the safefree+NULL always be done in cleanup?
12:12 audreyt gaal: no, because HV/AV can't propaget their tags to elems
12:13 audreyt *propagate
12:15 gaal ....do they need to?
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12:15 audreyt they must not
12:15 gaal just the syck_emit_seq / _map needs to be tagged
12:15 audreyt if you freeze at end of cleanup, they will
12:16 gaal oh, of course, we're reusing the bonus. duh.
12:16 gaal but that's where the double free is happening then, no?
12:17 gaal hmm, no.
12:19 gaal Safefree == free + double free guard? then in cases where there *isn't* a tag it'll be freed twice.
12:20 gaal should be "if (tag) free (tag)"
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12:23 gaal heh. running this in gdb, of course there is no double free :-(
12:23 Alias_ ping?
12:24 Alias_ erm.. guys, that log bot? Anyone know what it is and where I can get one?
12:28 gaal Alias_: I don't know, sorry. maybe talk to the colabti admin? alternatively, iblech runs a private bot, ask him for a copy of the code?
12:28 Alias_ colabti?
12:28 gaal Alias_: http://colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6
12:29 gaal ah, a hop and a half away: http://colabti.de/IrcLogger2.html
12:29 Alias_ aha, found it
12:29 Alias_ yep
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12:38 audreyt okay... enough YAML for now
12:38 audreyt ingy threatens to port PArrows to perl5 and have a working/robust/stable Rules implementation
12:38 audreyt on perl5
12:38 audreyt that's probably the next h'thon item
12:38 * audreyt goes back implementing PILN repr types and the Code type
12:38 gaal maybe ingy wants to come to .il in feb?
12:39 audreyt I don't know; I'll ask
12:40 Alias_ So is Ingy doing the "travelling around the world" thing too?
12:40 audreyt apparently so
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13:12 * avar made a megapugs hack
13:12 avar well
13:12 avar not exactly
13:12 audreyt mm?
13:13 audreyt miyagawa arrived :)
13:13 avar http://avar.lir.dk/mw/HEAD/wiki/Perl_6 <- perl 6 pastebin
13:13 avar using the syntax highlight from util/perl6.vim
13:13 audreyt ooh
13:13 avar \o/
13:16 rafl audreyt: Great.
13:16 azuroth any idea how to get `.nsv` streams to play under linux?
13:17 azuroth apparently google does.
13:17 avar so, uh, cool?;)
13:19 nnunley avar: Pretty cool.
13:22 avar I'm still trying to find a way to make vim work using stdin / stdout
13:22 avar i.e. echo food | vim ... - > yummie
13:23 avar so I'm just using temporary files now
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13:28 gaal avar: I think you can't, but -f and --cmd might help.
13:30 gaal yay l33t :)
13:30 avar shell_exec( "vim -u {$this->mVimrc} -e +'setf perl6' +'run! syntax/2html.vim' +':w {$this->mOutFile}' +':qa!' {$this->mInFile}" );
13:30 avar just using that right now
13:35 azuroth how annoying. xine reckons it can handle it, but it doesn't seem to be able to
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13:51 gaal azuroth: maybe mplayer?
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13:59 obra leo: pong
14:08 leo obra: it was re META.yml - but too late for this release
14:09 obra oh no :/
14:09 leo well, do you have a working meta.yml?
14:09 obra well, it sounds like andreas can fix it for us.
14:09 obra oh. does parrot have _no_ meta.yml?
14:10 leo exactly
14:10 obra ah.
14:10 obra nod. ok.
14:10 obra we can fix it next month
14:10 leo well - if there is a quick solution, I can still include it in 0.4.1
14:11 clkao obra!
14:11 * obra isn't enough of a META.yml wizard to definitely get it right
14:11 obra clkao: hi!
14:11 leo I think we should discuss this on #parrot
14:11 obra and broken metadata is scarier than no metadata
14:11 obra and andreas can fix it in PAUSE
14:11 leo ok
14:12 obra we just need to get him a list of what parrot has that it shouldn't
14:12 leo yup - please send a TODO to p6i
14:12 gaal modulo not working, I have YAML round-trip working.
14:13 gaal so audreyt, when you get a moment, I need some explanation of IVars :)
14:17 obra leo: done
14:17 leo thanks
14:24 gaal I modulorized not working. Roundtrip YAML works now, committing.
14:26 svnbot6 r8607 | gaal++ | * eval :lang<yaml> deserializes pugs objects.
14:28 gaal this probably breaks horribly with fancy classes :)
14:28 gaal ?eval class Foo; has $.x; my $x = Foo.new(x=>"xxa").yaml; say $x; my $y = eval $x, :lang<yaml>; say $y.yaml
14:28 evalbot_8606 OUTPUT[--- !pugs/object:Foo  x: xxa  pugs: unexpected node: <Scalar>
14:28 gaal here, '07...
14:30 gaal ?eval class Foo; has $.x; my $x = Foo.new(x=>"xxa").yaml; say $x; my $y = eval $x, :lang<yaml>; say $y.yaml
14:30 evalbot_8606 OUTPUT[--- !pugs/object:Foo  x: xxa  pugs: unexpected node: <Scalar>
14:30 azuroth ?eval say "sarah smells";
14:30 evalbot_8606 is now known as evalbot_8607
14:30 evalbot_8607 OUTPUT[sarah smells ] bool::true
14:31 gaal ?eval class Foo; has $.x; my $x = Foo.new(x=>"xxa").yaml; say $x; my $y = eval $x, :lang<yaml>; say $y.yaml
14:31 evalbot_8607 OUTPUT[--- !pugs/object:Foo  x: xxa  --- !pugs/object:Foo  x: xxa  ] bool::true
14:31 gaal tada!
14:31 azuroth wow, it must be true
14:32 Alias_ ?eval say "azuroth suxx0rs";
14:32 evalbot_8607 OUTPUT[azuroth suxx0rs ] bool::true
14:32 Alias_ ;)
14:32 gaal ?eval say "everything you read"
14:32 evalbot_8607 OUTPUT[everything you read ] bool::true
14:33 azuroth you'll pay for this Alias_
14:33 * gaal praises Syck and why
14:36 azuroth sar
14:36 azuroth ul8o
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15:09 audreyt gaal: pong
15:13 audreyt ?eval my $x; $x = \$x; $x.yaml
15:13 evalbot_8607 "--- \n<ref>: ~\n"
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15:19 avar ?eval my Num $x = 5.5; $y = \$x; $y.yaml
15:19 evalbot_8607 Error: Undeclared variable: "$y"
15:19 avar ?eval my Num $x = 5.5; my $y = \$x; $y.yaml
15:19 evalbot_8607 "--- \n<ref>: 11/2\n"
15:22 nnunley 5.5 is being converted to a fraction?
15:23 audreyt yeah, bad idea
15:23 audreyt since I don't think yaml supports rationals natively
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15:38 audreyt gaal: hm, where did you parse the tags stuff in syck load?
15:38 audreyt I can't seem to find the relevant line.
15:41 audreyt ahh, syckNodeTag
15:50 gaal rehi
15:50 gaal hello. :)
15:50 gaal I was looking at serializing rules previously, but was interrupted.
15:51 audreyt yo
15:51 audreyt want to take a stab in adding parsing tags to YAML::Syck? :)
15:51 gaal sure
15:52 audreyt k. I'll release 005
15:52 gaal btw please inspire the haskell' folks to add some kind of syntax making patmatches against sting prefixes less clunky :)
15:53 Alias_ 005?
15:53 audreyt ("foobar", rest) <- splitAt 6, string
15:53 audreyt s/,//
15:53 audreyt gaal: isn't that good enough?
15:53 Alias_ Is this a versioning system based on spy code numbers?
15:53 audreyt Alias_: no, it's YAML::Syck 0.05
15:53 audreyt now with object dumping and no memory leaks
15:53 Alias_ ah :)
15:54 gaal hey, but did you figure out the double free? I didn't
15:54 Alias_ Remind me again why YAML stopped being for outputting simple reports your secretary could read?
15:54 audreyt gaal: I added tag=NULL
15:54 Alias_ :)
15:54 audreyt Alias_: well, if your data type is simple, it still does that :)
15:54 Alias_ riiiight
15:54 audreyt like, if you only use the JSON subset of YAML.
15:54 Alias_ Did someone solve me "prove that a file only contains the JSON subset"
15:54 Alias_ my
15:55 gaal one serious issue with yaml is that it serializes badly to dead trees
15:55 Alias_ For the purposes of sanity checking YAML data
15:55 Alias_ ->load( $filename, json_subset => 1 )
15:56 gaal (... think "page break")
15:56 gaal audreyt: so can i svn up?
15:56 audreyt gaal: sure
15:56 Alias_ gaal: sure it does, within sufficiently simple subsets
15:57 audreyt Alias_: sure... it's called "dump with JSON.pm ;)"
15:57 Alias_ If you like UGLY
15:57 Alias_ The thing that most attracted me to YAML was readability, not the hardcore serialization aspect
15:58 Alias_ Speaking of which, have you solved the Storable problems yet?
15:58 gaal "I have this excellent compression algorithm, if you happen to have data that is equivalent to what I had in mind"
15:59 * gaal needs to $work a bit... audreyt, can the tagparse stuff wait a few hours or did you want to get 005 out your-today?
16:00 gaal s/equivalent/equal/
16:01 gaal re: splitAt: (a) I don't like having to count and (b) does the compiler generate the same code it did for an explicit 'a':'b':'c': patmatch?
16:01 gaal anymoose: gotta go, bbiab :b<~2hr>
16:01 gaal &
16:02 audreyt gaal: no, probably not. hm
16:06 Limbic_Region audreyt - were you only joking when you journaled that objects would be done this weekend?
16:06 Limbic_Region or just that one aspect of objects?
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16:08 audreyt Limbic_Region: no, objects as specced as S12
16:08 audreyt Limbic_Region: but I've been distracted into YAML hacking... will go back to objects in a few mins
16:09 Limbic_Region heh
16:09 Limbic_Region s/distracted/conned/
16:13 Limbic_Region ?eval ([+] 1..100).yaml
16:13 evalbot_8607 "--- 5050\n"
16:13 Limbic_Region heh - cool
16:14 Limbic_Region ?eval { "this is $^weird" }.("cool").yaml
16:14 evalbot_8607 "--- this is cool\n"
16:14 Limbic_Region sweet
16:15 Juerd_ ?eval [].yaml
16:15 evalbot_8607 "--- []\n\n"
16:15 Juerd_ Sometimes things just make sense.
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16:21 aufrank ?seen schwern
16:21 gaal i am teh eevil audreyt distraxx0r lol
16:22 aufrank are they fun distractions?
16:22 Alias_ left perl6
16:22 audreyt gaal: I implemented blessed obj loading ;)
16:23 gaal too fast for me, as usual :)
16:23 audreyt nah, because clkao pressured me into it
16:23 audreyt that's the thing about hackathons
16:23 clkao bwahaha
16:23 audreyt clkao: threatened to switch svk to Y::Syck
16:23 clkao now, what do you need from me
16:23 audreyt per-checkout .svk ;)
16:24 clkao mm
16:24 audreyt gaal: do you have any inkling about the hash map style?
16:24 audreyt the hs call Just Worked
16:24 audreyt I can't seem to figure out how it differes from the p5 one
16:24 audreyt clkao: YAML::Syck 0.07 out.
16:24 clkao k
16:24 audreyt 3 releases in an hour ;)
16:29 aufrank nice work, any parrot people in the room
16:30 audreyt leo++
16:30 aufrank oh yeah, that's how we do it
16:30 aufrank leo++
16:32 gaal sorry, i keep getting abducted by cows.
16:32 leo thanks folks
16:36 gaal audreyt: is YAML::Syck's syck the same version as pugs'?
16:36 gaal why mentioned he's realeasing a new version soon, incidentally.
16:36 gaal the API exercise for emitting looks precisely the same to me, so only an implementation difference can explain it.
16:37 audreyt gaal: I took from svn snapshot
16:37 audreyt so probably a bit delta
16:37 audreyt let me look at cping from pugs
16:37 gaal either that, or he's playing tricks on us: if (caller eq 'audreyt') { play_tricks }
16:38 geoffb Have to keep audreyt amused somehow, she clearly doesn't have enough things to work on ...
16:38 audreyt gaal: yeah, reverting to the pugs version works
16:38 audreyt okay, releasing 0.09.
16:39 gaal whee :)
16:39 aufrank syck is a yaml parser, is that right?
16:40 gaal +emitter
16:40 gaal yeah
16:40 aufrank k
16:40 audreyt 0.09 released.
16:41 gaal ?eval my $x = "hi aufrank".yaml; say $x; my $y = eval $x :lang<yaml>; say $y
16:41 evalbot_8607 OUTPUT[--- hi aufrank  hi aufrank ] bool::true
16:41 * gaal dances the round trip
16:41 audreyt gaal++
16:42 gaal audreyt++ for $releases_per_hour
16:42 aufrank nice!
16:44 gaal audreyt: also does objects, and simultaneously available at a CPAN near you for p5. ("after a pause", as leo++ so punningly put it)
16:44 audreyt very punny
16:44 audreyt -Opun
16:44 * aufrank groans
16:46 audreyt *rimshot*
16:46 gaal oooh! rxRule is a String! I see rule serialization coming soon :)
16:47 aufrank we can pass around grammars in yaml
16:47 gaal i bet that'll change sooner or later though.
16:48 gaal anyway, this looks like an excellent time to go home. see you later :)    &
16:48 aufrank audreyt: what representation do you think rule objects will use?  p6opaque?
16:48 aufrank bye gaal
16:49 audreyt aufrank: probably p6opaque, yes
16:50 aufrank does each representation define its own .yaml method?
16:53 aufrank or do some representations do a yamlizable role?
17:05 audreyt probably they need to be able to coerce into YamlNode
17:07 aufrank so is eval $x :lang<yaml> the same as eval $x.as<yaml> ?
17:12 Limbic_Region ?eval .25.yaml
17:12 evalbot_8607 "--- 1/4\n"
17:12 Limbic_Region ?eval 1.2.3.yaml
17:12 evalbot_8607 Error:  unexpected "." expecting exponent, term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
17:31 audreyt aufrank: in the future, yeah, I think so ($x as YAML::Node)
17:31 audreyt oh wait, you mean $x is a string?
17:31 * audreyt is confused
17:38 audreyt miyagawa: http://svn.kwiki.org/audreyt
17:40 audreyt miyagawa: going to release JSON::Syck just for fun? :)
17:40 miyagawa maybe, yeah :9
17:40 audreyt that will contribute toward your missing 13 modules
17:40 miyagawa right, exactly
17:47 gaal rehi
17:47 gaal ooooh automatic yaml coersion
17:47 gaal or coercion. now we have to learn *two* languages.
17:49 audreyt XD
17:52 * aufrank is cleaning house for the imminent return of my $girlfriend
17:52 gaal the ruby convention of letting user-defined objects live in a separate tag namespace appeals to me
17:52 aufrank oh, wait
17:53 aufrank that would make her local to this block, right?
17:53 gaal vs. p5's !perl/CGI
17:53 aufrank my $*girlfriend, I guess?
17:53 gaal you could say our $girlfriend, but that doesn't look too good.
17:53 aufrank she is classy, though
17:54 gaal has $.girlfriend
17:54 audreyt gaal: hm, how does ruby dump?
17:54 gaal !rub:object/CGI
17:54 gaal *ruby
17:54 gaal I made pugs do that too
17:55 audreyt that is correct
17:55 gaal let YAML::Syck do !perl
17:55 audreyt however, p5 doesn't really work that way
17:55 audreyt !perl/@CGI
17:55 gaal for compat with YAML.pm
17:55 audreyt means an array ref blessed into CGI package
17:55 audreyt there's nothing object-ish about that
17:55 aufrank ruby calls it marshalling, right?
17:55 audreyt since in perl5, every thing is not an object.
17:55 gaal well, do Dump(CGI->new)
17:55 gaal lol # "since in perl5, every thing is not an object."
17:56 gaal money is no object!
17:56 Juerd_ I object.
17:57 gaal romance languages, ready, set, go!
17:57 aufrank gaal: I think the pickaxe book has an example of marshaling and YAML
17:57 gaal I subject (you to trite puns)
17:57 justatheory joined perl6
17:58 gaal I think ruby's syck can install symbols right into the namespace. ahh, joy, in p6 that'll be interesting again.
17:58 aufrank yeah, gaal it's page 414-417 in the pickaxe.
17:58 gaal I thought I was taking a break from the crazy exporter stuff and now it's chasing me!
17:59 gaal aufrank: thanks, is that book online?
17:59 * gaal is only picking up ruby now
18:01 aufrank gaal: no, not online unfortunately
18:01 aufrank but google seems to think that syck will eventually be included in ruby, if it's not already
18:01 aufrank http://www.rubygarden.org/ruby?YamlInRuby
18:02 gaal I believe it is.
18:03 chris2 syck is included since 1.8.0
18:03 aufrank gotcha
18:03 chris2 and it heavily fuds inside ruby's symbol table :|
18:04 gaal bbiab &
18:18 audreyt bbl too &
18:26 * rafl is looking for testers for the parrot 0.4.1 Debian packages: http://files.perldition.org/debian/
18:29 Juerd_ pakket-architectuur (i386) komt niet overeen met het systeem (powerpc)
18:29 Juerd_ ;)
18:30 rafl Juerd_: I can upload the source package as well, if you like.
18:30 Juerd_ It's not a matter of me liking or wanting, it's a matter of you seeking testers :)
18:35 rafl Juerd_: Uploaded.
18:37 lisppaste3 joined perl6
18:43 Juerd_ rafl: Compiles and installs
18:43 Juerd_ And runs
18:44 Juerd_ rafl: Didn't have libicu34-dev, as Ubuntu doesn't provide it. It's in Build-depends, though.
18:45 Limbic_Region joined perl6
18:55 rafl Juerd_: That's fine. I want the Debian version to be linked against icu.
18:55 Juerd_ What is it? :)
18:56 rafl International Components for Unicode library
18:56 Juerd_ Sounds scary
18:56 rafl Did your camera already arrive, btw?
18:56 rafl It is, of course.
18:56 Juerd_ No, not yet
18:57 Juerd_ I'm hoping it arrives the coming four days, because I want to use it Friday :)
18:57 Limbic_Region Parrot's continued dependency on ICU for unicode support is unfortunate
18:58 rafl Limbic_Region: Why?
18:58 leo Limbic_Region: perl Configure.pl --without-icu
18:58 Limbic_Region well, for one its requirement of c++
18:58 Limbic_Region the original plan for Parrot was to be very basic ANSI C compliance - for portability sak3e
18:59 rafl Juerd_: I guess so. I told my housemate to send it three or four days ago because I wasn't at home. I guess it'll arrive soon.
18:59 Limbic_Region for another, the plan was that Parrot's Unicode interface would be very generic allowing many/any unicode library to be used
18:59 Limbic_Region and AFAIK, that hasn't happened
18:59 leo Limbic_Region: we have reduced the need for icu vastly - if it isn't there all compiles and tests too
18:59 Juerd_ As proven by my system :)
18:59 Limbic_Region leo - and still retained unicode support?
19:00 Juerd_ Who needs unicode ;)
19:00 leo sure, if ICU is installed and used, you get enhanced functionality
19:00 Juerd_ leo: Isn't it better for a VM to provide a single stable interface?
19:01 Limbic_Region so then has Parrot been building in its own unicode library and not just an API to external libraries?
19:01 * Limbic_Region guesses he should follow Parrot development more than just the summaries
19:01 Juerd_ That isn't so platform dependent that things differ even based on whether a certain lib is available...
19:01 leo Limbic_Region: no, w/o ICU there is no unicode support, that's it
19:02 Limbic_Region right - so my original sentiments stand
19:02 Juerd_ leo: But don't we *always* want unicode support, and not depend on something external for it?
19:02 Limbic_Region not that making Parrot compile without ICU isn't a step in the right direction
19:02 leo patches welcome for you own unicode lib ;-)
19:03 Juerd_ It's not as if this icu thing is omnipresent.
19:03 leo if we got a better lib we can use it - np
19:03 Limbic_Region right - someone made a massive patch which mostly worked so it got accepted
19:03 Limbic_Region no one else stepped up to the plate to support a different library
19:03 Juerd_ leo: This should perhaps be on a somewhat higher level of priority than "patches welcome"
19:04 Juerd_ Perl 6 requires unicode support, and IIRC, Parrot was supposed to be used by Perl 6...
19:05 leo and icu provides unicode for paot - where is the problem actually?
19:05 leo rrr
19:05 Limbic_Region well, getting ICU to build did get easier Juerd_
19:05 Juerd_ leo: Eh, unavailability of binary packages for my system.
19:05 leo we don't build icu - we use it as a lib
19:05 Limbic_Region not the point
19:05 Limbic_Region if you can't build the lib
19:05 Limbic_Region then you can't use unicode
19:06 leo Juerd_: compiling icu one from src isn't a biggy
19:06 Limbic_Region and building ICU isn't trivial
19:06 Juerd_ leo: And, as L~R said, portability, although I'm just copying his argument now :)
19:06 Limbic_Region though it has been a year or more since I did it
19:06 Limbic_Region c++ isn't that big of a deal but it does go against the original dependency plan for Parrot
19:06 leo Limbic_Region: - then please don't tell rants
19:06 Juerd_ leo: Oh, but there you are mistaken. It is. Compiling anything from source IS a biggy, because it interrupts my standard work flow, and makes me WAIT for software to install.
19:07 leo Juerd_: what system are you using w/o any icu lib?
19:07 Juerd_ When it comes to non-toy things, I either use available binary packages, or another tool altogether.
19:07 Juerd_ leo: Apparently Ubuntu
19:08 Limbic_Region leo - I think you are misunderstanding my rant
19:08 leo and ubuntu doesn't have any ICU binary package?
19:08 Juerd_ Oh, my previous apt-cache search had a spelling error. There is some icu available for this platform. An old version, but available.
19:08 * Juerd_ was searching for uci
19:08 leo ok then
19:09 Juerd_ s/.*// :)
19:09 Limbic_Region I am not against ICU support for Parrot - I am against the idea that it is the only option for Unicode support
19:09 Limbic_Region but as you said - patches and volunteers welcome
19:09 leo Limbic_Region: it isn't - please provide another package
19:10 leo it's currently the only one we have that's it
19:10 Juerd_ Limbic_Region: Does ICU have a bad reputation?
19:10 leo same with libgmp
19:11 Limbic_Region Juerd_ - no, not that I know of
19:11 leo Juerd_: it provides much more than needed for usual defs of needed
19:11 Limbic_Region the developers were quite helpful at trying to resolve the build problems I was having on Cygwin
19:11 Limbic_Region but it is a monster
19:11 Juerd_ I see
19:12 Juerd_ For a libicu-lite ;)
19:12 Juerd_ s/For/Fork/
19:13 leo that's not a new idea - but we for sure don't do it
19:13 Limbic_Region actually, I tried
19:13 Limbic_Region but that was still when ICU was part of the parrot trunk
19:13 leo reinventing just smaller wheels is still a bad idea
19:14 Limbic_Region well, I wasn't reinventing anything - just trimming the enormous amounts of fat
19:14 Juerd_ leo: Through histories, wheels in general have become available in much lighter forms.
19:14 Juerd_ Though history in plural doesn't quite make sense in English :)
19:15 leo that's still wellcome of course - trimming existing stuff - otoh it is a lot of work
19:15 Juerd_ leo: As it turns out, if the spokes are reliable, you can do with less :)
19:15 Juerd_ And if you have a nice steel rail to roll on, rubber can be left off the wheel too
19:16 Juerd_ The ultimate realisation is of course that the wheel itself was a bad idea :)
19:17 leo all ok - what parrot will need is one PMC (e.g. UnicodeString) that DTRT
19:26 hcarty joined perl6
19:27 rafl Juerd_: Which version?
19:32 Juerd_ rafl: 28
19:33 rafl Juerd_: Maybe report a bug against the icu src package to include 34 as well.
19:33 rafl Juerd_: Should not be much work as it's in Debian already.
19:34 rafl Juerd_: Erm, http://packages.ubuntu.com/dapper/libs/libicu34
19:34 Juerd_ Ahh, dapper
19:34 Juerd_ But dapper is too scary on powerpc
19:34 Juerd_ It barely even runs on i386 sometimes :)
19:35 rafl I know a lot of people using dapper. Hrm..
19:36 Juerd_ I've had quite some trouble with dapper on my laptop
19:36 Amnesiac joined perl6
19:41 svnbot6 r8608 | gaal++ | YAML serialization -
19:41 svnbot6 r8608 | gaal++ | * emit PGE Rules (rx:g/a/.yaml works)
19:41 svnbot6 r8608 | gaal++ | * normalize emitted booleans
19:41 svnbot6 r8608 | gaal++ | * src/Data/Yaml/Syck.hsc cleanups
19:41 svnbot6 r8608 | gaal++ |   - YamlNode structure shouldn't change much henceforth
19:41 svnbot6 r8608 | gaal++ |   - remove implicit vars
19:50 Lartuv joined perl6
19:58 clkao ?eval rx:g/a/.yaml
19:58 evalbot_8607 is now known as evalbot_8608
19:58 evalbot_8608 "--- !pugs/Rule \nrule: a\nglobal: true\nstringify: false\nadverbs: \n  g: 1\n"
19:59 clkao subalashi!
20:05 gaal clkao: other direction coming up.
20:06 gaal btw, what does "stringify" mean, anyway? :)
20:13 aufrank gaal:  are you joking or in earnest?
20:14 aufrank stringify means "make into string"
20:14 gaal aufrank: I meant in the context of a PGE Rule record member :)
20:14 aufrank oh
20:14 aufrank nevermind then :)
20:14 gaal what does it mean for a Rule to say "no stringify"?
20:15 aufrank not a clue
20:17 gaal argh why does dist/ need manual cleaning after hsc hacking? :(
20:24 gaal okay, I have Rule deserialization, but it segfaults when used.
20:24 gaal probably I need to copy values.
20:25 gaal just redumping out the deserialized Rule works, though.
20:25 gaal so I'll checkin, if $you can fix please do :)
20:29 svnbot6 r8609 | gaal++ | Yaml serialization -
20:29 svnbot6 r8609 | gaal++ | * parsing rules works (but they segfault when applied, probably need
20:29 svnbot6 r8609 | gaal++ |   a copy made?)
20:31 gaal ?eval my $r = rx:g/a/.yaml; (eval $r :lang<yaml>).yaml.say
20:31 evalbot_8608 pugs: can't deserialize: pugs/Rule
20:31 gaal oh yes you can!
20:31 gaal call your younger brother.
20:32 * aufrank goes to airport
20:32 aufrank bye all
20:32 gaal ?eval my $r = rx:g/a/.yaml; (eval $r :lang<yaml>).yaml.say
20:32 evalbot_8608 is now known as evalbot_8609
20:32 evalbot_8609 OUTPUT[--- !pugs/Rule  rule: a global: true stringify: true adverbs:    g: 1  ] bool::true
20:32 gaal bye aufrank
20:37 gaal audreyt: I'm still getting double-frees with r70
20:39 gaal is anyone still awake from the hackathon?
20:45 gaal ah, great, scratch that: make clean fixed my problems :)
20:57 Southen_ joined perl6
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21:35 gaal audreyt: got perl -MYAML::Syck -le 'print Dump(\qr/foo/)' to work, but bizarrely, not Dump(qr/foo/). maybe tomorrow :)
21:36 gaal for now, zzZ &
21:41 buu ?join #perl
21:41 evalbot_8609 you should only do ?join in a private message so other bots don't accidentally come.
21:41 buu arfgh
21:41 buu sigh
21:41 buu Now ?join gets the svnbot and not the evalbot
21:47 hcarty left perl6
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22:18 DaGo joined perl6
22:28 * gaal realizes a SYB approach is actually warranted to transform all native types like Rules (and probably Roles etc) to yaml
22:28 * gaal goes back to sleep
22:38 dduncan joined perl6
22:57 penk joined perl6
23:04 dduncan so apparently Parrot 0.4.1 was just released
23:05 dduncan since audreyt's proposal had Pugs 0.2.11 going out just after this, how much time do I have left to get in changes first?
23:05 dduncan ... will check journal ...
23:12 svnbot6 r8610 | stevan++ | PIL/Native/Roles/*
23:12 svnbot6 r8610 | stevan++ | - small comment update for Num.pil
23:12 svnbot6 r8610 | stevan++ | - added new Seq role which implements an immutable sequence type with
23:12 svnbot6 r8610 | stevan++ |   the canonical set of list operations (ala LISP/Scheme/etc), all it
23:12 svnbot6 r8610 | stevan++ |   needs is to have .head and .tail defined
23:12 svnbot6 r8610 | stevan++ | PIL/Native/Classes/*
23:12 svnbot6 r8610 | stevan++ | - a new folder with a set of core PIL^N classes which will be used to
23:12 svnbot6 r8610 | stevan++ |   build the code Perl6 classes (maybe,... uhm, I think, it's my current
23:12 svnbot6 r8610 | stevan++ |   thought direction at the moment at least)
23:12 svnbot6 r8610 | stevan++ | - added immutable Sequence and LazySeqeunce clases, neither is really
23:12 svnbot6 r8610 | stevan++ |   tested (waiting on the repr refactor from audreyt++), and LazySequence
23:12 svnbot6 r8610 | stevan++ |   has some issues when a methods must return a new sequence (apply, filter,
23:12 svnbot6 r8610 | stevan++ |   & reverse) since that sequence won't be lazy (I have to ponder this
23:12 svnbot6 r8610 | stevan++ |   some more before I can decide what is the best approach for it, ideally
23:12 svnbot6 r8610 | stevan++ |   they will return lazy sequences too).
23:27 vel joined perl6
23:27 svnbot6 r8611 | stevan++ | docs/notes/PILN_core_classes.pod
23:27 svnbot6 r8611 | stevan++ | - start of a document describing the core PIL^N classes/roles,
23:27 svnbot6 r8611 | stevan++ |   think of these as being like Parrot's core PMC types, but more
23:27 svnbot6 r8611 | stevan++ |   powerful than the native PIL^N methods. More to come on this
23:27 svnbot6 r8611 | stevan++ |   later.
23:30 lisppaste3 joined perl6
23:57 dduncan regarding 6.2.11 release date, the last journal mention was on dec 24th, which said in early january just after Parrot 0.4.1, and both of those prerequisites now exist
23:58 dduncan aside from getting all the tests to pass or skip, are there any other todo items now?
23:58 mlh joined perl6

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