Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-01-11

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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01:04 svnbot6 r8637 | Darren_Duncan++ |  r1897@Darren-Duncans-Computer:  darrenduncan | 2006-01-10 16:59:46 -0800
01:04 svnbot6 r8637 | Darren_Duncan++ |  /ext/Rosetta : move/renamed 4 files from /docs to /lib/Rosetta, as they are or will be POD files; removed 'srt' from 3 .pm files; deleted the README
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01:11 dduncan regretfully, it seems that svk doesn't propagate "moves" or "copies" as such when a client is setup in the mirror+local duality, and changes are made against the local ... while the right thing happens locally, svk push just seems to turn them into ordinary adds and/or deletes against the main repository, so those lose history information being attached to the moved/copied files
01:11 svnbot6 r8638 | Darren_Duncan++ |  r1901@Darren-Duncans-Computer:  darrenduncan | 2006-01-10 17:09:11 -0800
01:11 svnbot6 r8638 | Darren_Duncan++ |  /ext/Rosetta : oops, didn't actually delete README last time
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02:51 svnbot6 r8639 | Darren_Duncan++ |  r1905@Darren-Duncans-Computer:  darrenduncan | 2006-01-10 18:48:04 -0800
02:51 svnbot6 r8639 | Darren_Duncan++ |  /ext/Rosetta : updated all 6 pod-only files for consistent formatting and some updated content
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03:08 Debolaz Hey Amnesiac.
03:12 Amnesiac hey Debolaz, how's everything?
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03:19 Debolaz Amnesiac: Good. Just started writing my own software license.
03:43 dduncan something everyone needs to do at some point
03:43 dduncan for what type of software?
03:46 Debolaz dduncan: Just a game I'm writing. It's not really something serious, just a learning project.
03:47 dduncan I hear U
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06:28 svnbot6 r8640 | gaal++ | * improve error message for $x := $undeclared
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06:33 GeJ greetings all
06:36 gaal hey GeJ
06:37 flw hi GeJ
06:42 GeJ hum, sweet, YAML, YAML::Syck and JSON::Syck in the ports.
06:43 GeJ Damn, it's nice to have a couple of commiters hanging around over here :)
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06:52 gaal I must go off to $work. I made a checkin of my further attempts with some comments in the hope that someone may pick it up and figure out what went wrong.
06:52 svnbot6 r8641 | gaal++ | mulitsub export: document a few unsuccessful attempts
06:53 gaal have a nice day :)  &
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07:00 GeJ morning nm
07:01 nothingmuch morning
07:01 nothingmuch what's cooking?
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07:07 GeJ not much. no headache this morning.
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07:22 nothingmuch sorry, someone bugged me
07:22 nothingmuch headaches are bad =(
07:22 nothingmuch \are you sick? or hung over, etc/
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07:48 buu ?eval 1
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08:23 dduncan fyi, I have some module v-num changes to commit tomorrow, to get in before 6.2.11 goes out, but otherwise I'll hold off any further changes until after the 6.2.11 release
08:23 dduncan which is the weekend, I've heard
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14:04 wolverian audreyt++ # the D&R is hilarious :)
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15:40 gaal wolverian: D&R?
15:41 wolverian gaal, http://search.cpan.org/src/AU​TRIJUS/YAML-Syck-0.21/COPYING
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15:43 * gaal considered "This software might be used" as a license.
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16:20 ingy seen audreyt
16:20 jabbot ingy: audreyt was seen 1 days 3 hours 56 minutes 20 seconds ago
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16:45 clkao win 20
16:47 Nei xD
16:47 Nei keybindings not your thing?
16:48 * webmind sometimes finds it easier to type /win 34, then to do alt-b
16:48 webmind but I'm not a 10finger typer eiher
16:48 Nei interesting
16:49 Nei after all you need 5 or 6 more keys for the command
16:49 Nei any idea why it's easier?
16:54 webmind I think because I find it harder to locate the key with the meta+<key>
16:55 webmind it requires an extra mental step to convert 34 to b
16:56 webmind I have it mainlt on the higher end the 30+ channels since I visit those less often
16:56 webmind and I see a highlight on 37 and wonder now how do I get there again
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17:03 Nei yea I have the same problem
17:03 Nei that's why I have the act show keys instead of numbers
17:05 webmind how do you do that ?
17:06 Nei replacement perl script
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17:16 webmind ah
17:17 Nei its hacked together in perl5 though
17:17 webmind where can I find it ?
17:18 Nei personally I'm using adv_windowlist script, you can find it on ai.onetrix.net
17:18 webmind thanks
17:19 Nei it is quite flexible but the drawback ist that it always reserves an extra statusbar just for the act
17:19 webmind hmmm
17:19 Nei if you don't like that I think there is also chanact script available on the irssi website
17:19 webmind k
17:19 webmind I'll take a look, thanks :)
17:19 Nei but I don't know whether that can display keybindings >_>
17:19 Nei I couldn't get it to
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17:48 gaal yo
17:58 gaal So, it turns out that the YAML rule deserialization problem isn't in YAML at all! look:
17:58 gaal ?eval "a" ~~ /a/; say "alive"
17:58 gaal ugh.
17:58 gaal well, even with a pugs that works, that doesn't.
17:59 gaal so PGE embedding appears to be broken with new parrots
17:59 gaal and the YAML stuff very likely works as-is.
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18:36 nothingmuch audreyt: i have a nice perl 5 hack for you
18:38 audreyt nothingmuch: oh? (I'm about to sleep)
19:05 nothingmuch audreyt: http://catalyst.perl.org/random/no​thingmuch/2006/01/11/my_x_stashed
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19:16 Limbic_Region my guess is she is asleep by now
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19:29 gantrixx I was wondering if anyone had a reaction to nazarijo's comments on slashdot today
19:32 obra What were tehy?
19:33 Nei basically /. says 'python is god, perl sucks'
19:33 rep slashdot is never wrong
19:33 Nei hahaha
19:35 gantrixx actually I think his comments were more along the line that python is replacing perl
19:35 gantrixx and it is easier to do some things in python than in perl
19:35 gantrixx and I don't think nazarijo speaks for all of slashdot
19:35 gantrixx it's just one person's opinion
19:36 gantrixx but it is a point that I've been speaking about for some time now
19:36 gantrixx in industry many of my clients are loosing interest in perl
19:36 obra Well, These days, many are jumping to Ruby, not Python
19:37 theorb Yes, well, this is one major reason for the perl 6 project.
19:38 gantrixx my other point was that if Perl6 takes too long to become available to the masses, there may be no interest in it since it has been replaced by what is considered newer technology
19:38 theorb I doubt it.
19:38 theorb Whenever perl 6 comes out, it'll be considered new technology.
19:38 gantrixx Perl++
19:38 theorb ...hm, or, on second though, not.
19:38 theorb I quite agree.
19:39 gantrixx I did have one client who was interested in using Perl6, but I had to tell him to wait a year or so
19:39 theorb But me thinking perl++ doesn't help me get a job at it.
19:39 gantrixx He is content to continue with Perl5, but he is augmenting his tool set with Python scripts now
19:40 gantrixx If it were me, there would be no Python or PHP, just Perl and mod_perl
19:40 gantrixx I like Perl, I've spent a lot of professional time with it
19:40 theorb The question is, what is easier in Python and PHP, and how can we fix it?
19:40 gantrixx but I think, like the article says, Python is gobbling up much of the Perl marketshare
19:41 gantrixx Well the only saving grace is that Perl6 incorporate the best things from Python, Ruby, and PHP
19:42 xinming gantrixx: Things will change after perl 6 is out. And the world will rock with perl 6. :-)
19:42 theorb Yes, I expect things will change after perl 6 is out, what with the comming apoclypse and all.
19:42 gantrixx and Perl6 must be made available to the masses sooner rather than later
19:42 theorb Exactly.
19:43 gantrixx Perl6 is not ready for prime time until ActiveState has a distro for win32 and at least one major Linix distro includes it
19:43 xinming gantrixx: I don't agree. :-) where is parrot, and then where is perl 6. :-)
19:44 gantrixx xinming, I don't understand your comment
19:44 xinming gantrixx: And compile parrot on win 32 isn't that hard than perl 6 IMHO.
19:44 gantrixx please explain
19:44 xinming gantrixx: hmm, I mean, after the perl 6 can be self-hosting, perl 6 is desined to run on top of parrot.
19:45 rafl Actually compiling parrot on win32 is a big mess.
19:45 gantrixx OK, well when I refer to Perl6 I'm talking about Perl6 + Parrot
19:45 rafl But I think that'll be changed as soon as someone works on parrot milestone 4..
19:46 xinming hmm, I still wondering, If perl 6 will can be compiled to binary. hmm, Or, Parrot can compile it's byte code into binary. hmm, I don't mean embed a parrot in the binary.
19:48 gantrixx Well I'm assuming that at first Parrot will be bundled with Perl6
19:48 rafl xinming: Thought it already can do that (even if it's prove of concept, atm)
19:48 gantrixx I don't see languages like Python promoting how they will run with Parrot
19:48 gantrixx Parrot is a Perl6 creation
19:49 gantrixx and everyone else has adopted a wait and see attitude toward it
19:50 theorb I don't think anybody outside of perl6 hackers much care about parrot... and not even all of them.
19:51 rantanplan_ xinming, you can create native binaries out of parrot bytecode. But you have to link it agains libparrot.so.
19:51 rafl theorb: Maybe because parrot isn't mature enough. But I think it will be attractive for a lot of other languages as it lets you get rid of lots of hard tasks during writing a compiler.
19:51 obra seen alias
19:51 jabbot obra: I havn't seen alias, obra
19:53 gantrixx I agree that Parrot is a good idea and should eventually be considered it's own seperate entity, but it has to prove itself with Perl first
19:53 xinming ever heard some people would port gcc to parrot... I can't imagine what the world will be if gcc is ported to parrot. Maybe the kernel only need to run the Parrot?
19:54 theorb ...and I think that parrot is an interesting idea, but is moving too slowly and holding back perl6.
19:54 theorb ...but perhaps I'm just not seeing the current picture -- I've gotten rather behind.
19:55 theorb xinming: Making gcc target parrot in the general case is a /lot/ easier said then done.
19:55 gantrixx Yes, I think that Perl6/Parrot is starting to sound like Mozilla to many people.   Great promises but very very slow results
19:55 theorb Doing it with language interop is probably simply impossible.
19:55 gantrixx My only hope is that Perl6 will be as successful as Mozilla/Firefox
19:56 theorb .oO(Help me, Audry-wan Konobi, you're my only hope...)
19:57 rantanplan_ But its interesting how many new languages are created for Perl6 ;) PASM, PIR, Jako ..
19:58 theorb It certianly is, but I wouldn't want to write anything serious in any of them.
19:58 xinming gantrixx: I won't agree, It's a bit like Java, It isn't that slow.
19:58 rafl rantanplan_: What's Jako?
19:58 theorb To me that's not a sign of how easy it is to write a language that targets parrot, but how difficult it is to write a good one, or we wouldn't keep getting more of them.
19:59 theorb Jako is a language that was created around the time parrot first got usable PMCs.
19:59 rantanplan_ rafl, its higher level than PIR, but can be directly translated to PASM. So its like a scripting language for Parrot, pretty near to Assembly but looks and feels like a scripting language.
19:59 gantrixx hey guys, I'll chat with you later, I'm on the company clock, I need to do some more Perl5 coding
20:00 theorb To me, it looks like pugs was flying along until it started trying to target parrot, and since then has gotten bogged down in a twisty maze of mini-languages, all starting with P.
20:00 rafl rantanplan_: Sounds cool. Can I use it with pure parrot or is it something in languages/?
20:01 rantanplan_ rafl, its in the languages/jako directory of the Parrot tree. Makes use of Perl5 and Parrot.
20:01 rafl rantanplan_: Why Perl5?
20:01 rantanplan_ Dont know, the parser and lexer stuff seems do be in Perl5.
20:02 rantanplan_ To generate the AST.
20:02 theorb Because it was easier to write it in perl5 then much of anything else.
20:03 rantanplan_ This is one think i still dont really understand. All parser  of all Parrot Languages seem to be in another language like Perl5, Python, C etc.. (Or flex, bison) isnt there a Parser engine in the Parrot Core?
20:04 rafl Maybe it can be done with PGE and TGE soon..
20:04 theorb Only recently, and they still aren't finished.
20:06 rantanplan_ I would be interested in porting nawk to Parrot, but dont wanna rewrite the parsing stuff if parrot supports it natively ;)
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20:12 rantanplan_ Hehe, Parrot AWK == pawk.
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20:45 webmind hmm, feather has a k-line on efnet ?
20:50 Juerd webmind: Good chance.
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23:13 putter re python and perl<[56]>...  In a corporate setting, it seems clear that python is generally preferable to perl5.
23:15 putter But the key thing re python and perl6, is that _python should be a perfectly fine way to write p6 code_.  As long as p6 doesn't keep losing hook-iness.  (Leaving goto to a hairy module, and the talk of disappearing globals, has me worried...)
23:16 putter As long as p6 contains a superset of the language/runtime features other languages need (at least on backends which support continuations), doing transliteration-based implementations of those languages is remarkably easy.
23:18 putter Emphasize remarkably.  One of the key advantages of perl5 over python when you are playing "interesting" games is the much greater "mess of hooks".  With python, one can find one self in a "you cant get there from here".
23:22 putter One will usually spend _most_ of ones time dealing with the impedance mismatches.  As long as p6 remains hooky and a superset, there are no impedance mismatches.  Implementing a language is merely the grind of dumping its spec to code.
23:26 putter For instance, consider goto.  Now gone from p6(?).  The JavaScript spec is written with intra-method control flow described as goto step N.  One can regexp massage the spec into p6 code with goto's.  But with p6 not having goto's, you now have to massage, by hand, most(?) of the methods.
23:27 putter Which ends up being a major part of the total development time, a even larger likely source of bugs, and results in distinctly less maintainable code which no longer cleanly mirrors the spec.
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23:33 putter So re p6 and python, it should be straightforward to have  use Language::Python::OnPerl6::ByTransliteration; ...python code...,
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23:33 putter and do piln->RPython to use the pypy codegen, etc, etc.
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23:37 putter We just need the tuple of pilng, fleshed out oo, working regexps and type system, and we'll be set to go.
23:38 putter But without all four, its hard to do anything more than toys
23:39 putter <end missive>
23:39 * putter looks forward to a Cambrian Explosion of p6 code ;)
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23:44 putter Oh, and part of the beauty of piln and multiple backends, is that p6 need not be dependent on parrot.  There are lots of path to native codegen once one has already dealt with and boiled away the hairy semantics of the language (p6).
23:44 putter s/path/paths/
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23:54 putter stevan, audreyt: it might be an interesting thought experiment to create a "wishlist" - tasks which are on the pugs critical path, which someone else can do (well defined, dont require you're global perspective), which you will have to do if someone else doesnt, near term (a few days or weeks), and...
23:54 putter I think that's it.  Basically trying to accelerate the critical path.
23:57 putter cheers &

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