Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-01-14

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:03 dduncan joined perl6
00:07 putter Hmm.  Prim.hs thinks reduce -->List, but S29 has it --> Scalar, which seems more plausible.
00:07 putter luqui:  multi Array::join (@values,   Str $delimiter --> Str )  is another one which should perhaps be @values :
00:14 putter good night all &
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03:48 meppl guten morgen
03:52 dduncan $acknowledgement
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04:10 putter luqui: ping?
04:12 luqui pong
04:13 luqui er, putter, pong
04:17 putter hi luqui.  I had another question about S29draft.pod, that I wasnt sure enough about to declare a typo.
04:17 luqui shoot
04:17 putter should this
04:17 putter multi Array::grep (@values,   MatchTest $test   --> Lazy )
04:17 putter be
04:18 putter  multi Array::grep (@values:   MatchTest $test   --> Lazy )  
04:18 luqui again, my own reservations about the multiness of grep etc. aside, yes
04:18 putter ? ( , -> : )
04:18 luqui hmmm... that multi seems just to be declaring a method
04:19 luqui in which case my reservations don't apply ;-)
04:19 putter ok, thanks.  there were several like that that.  Prim.hs also uses an invocant.
04:19 luqui makes sense
04:20 putter so your reservations are for declaring the global subs multi?
04:20 luqui yeah
04:20 luqui in fact, IMO most builtins should not be multi
04:21 putter because on can $old_value := &foo;  sub foo { ... $old_value() } ?
04:21 putter s/on/one/
04:21 luqui more tersely spelled "wrap", but no
04:21 luqui the reason is because if you want a different behavior for "say", you should import a different "say"
04:21 luqui defining different global multis is like overriding CORE::GLOBAL::*...
04:23 putter (which can be very useful in ruby, great for metaprogramming, but not the thing for large systems)
04:23 luqui well, the thing is, in ruby do you ever need to do it at runtime?
04:23 luqui perl 6 gives you so much control at compile time that such things shouldn't be necessary at runtime
04:23 putter in ruby, you do _everything_ at runtime ;)
04:24 luqui oh, right, I think I remember hearing about that
04:24 luqui admittedly I don't have a very strong argument against them
04:24 luqui but it's just the "in control" feel that I like to have
04:25 luqui the difference between map @foo: {...}  and map {...} @foo  should not be decided at runtime
04:25 luqui based on the types of @foo and {...}; that's much more like overloading than like multi dispatch
04:26 putter "define method" is a regular function.  very flexible.  ruby now my favorite metaprogramming language, above p5 and CL.  p6 will take 1st place as long as its "staticness" doesnt turn out an unavoidable burden.
04:26 putter hmm...
04:27 luqui well please argue if you see us going too far on the static side
04:28 putter one reason to do a ruby frontend soon is to turn up any problems as we go along.
04:29 putter re, map, what about additional args?  map @foo:{...},FrobMap   that have an ok feel?
04:30 luqui what does that mean?
04:31 luqui just passing args to the map method?
04:32 luqui that's okay.  i'm just saying that map @foo: {...}  and  map {...} @foo  should desugar to either the exact same thing or calls to two different functions
04:32 putter having a map/2 (array, code adverb, plus extra bit) without stomping on the existing map/1.  (numbering args looks odd when some of them are optional named args...)
04:32 luqui but map @foo: {...}, FrobMap is just @foo.map({...}, FrobMap)
04:32 luqui it's hard to explain I suppose
04:32 luqui it's the difference between "implementation selection" and "meaning selection"
04:33 luqui multis, IMO, are for the former alone
04:33 luqui if you want the same name to mean two different things (a dubious practice in the first place), it should be a compile time selection
04:34 putter err, I thought :{...} was just an adverb.  so map @a :{}  _is_ the same as map :{} @a.  no?  does it become a method call at some poing?  putter squints and scratches head.
04:34 putter s/poing/point/
04:35 luqui do you see a colon in the second form?
04:35 luqui also, the colon in the first form isn't an adverbial colon, it's an indirect object colon
04:35 luqui (yes, colons are very overloaded)
04:35 putter ahh.
04:36 luqui the reason those two maps mean different things is because the first one means "map the second arg over the first" and the second means "map the first arg over the second"
04:36 luqui it seems like you picked up on that already
04:36 luqui anyway... </rant>
04:38 putter so map @a: {}  === @a.map({})  but map {} @a ... err, how does that parse without a comma?  {} taken as implicit adverbial?  (feel free to punt discussion at any point - this is just non-bottlenecking curiosity on my part)
04:39 luqui commas are implicit around blocks
04:39 luqui in a very handwavey sort of way
04:43 putter ah.  so to rephrase to check my understanding, the issue is  f($x: $y) and f($x, $y) shouldnt call distinct versions of the same (multi) function f.  yes?
04:43 luqui uh, yeah, that's the specific case of my complaint
04:44 luqui the more general case is that multis shouldn't be used to do meaning selection
04:44 luqui but anyway, gtg
04:44 * luqui &
04:44 putter bye luqui
04:44 putter tnx for your help
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04:48 putter hmm, anyone:  f($x) is different than f($x : ) , yes?   (another S29draft oddity)
04:49 dduncan okay, so I just sent to CPAN the (presumably) final versions of the Rosetta framework from the first / pre-rewrite code base
04:49 dduncan just in time for friday the 13th
04:49 dduncan whenever Pugs 6.2.11 goes out, I'll publish the first release of the second major code base, concurrently to it
04:52 putter luqui: re f($x: $y) vs f($x, $y), I think it will be interesting to see if people are confused by it in practice.  if I was in "scheme mindset", then of course they should be normalized/minimized.  but an advantage of perl over scheme, is there are a lot more "hooks" to shoehorn in what you need to do.  so I end up
04:52 putter reluctant to give up hooks in p6 without knowing what keeping them will cost.  random thought.
04:52 putter dduncan++
04:53 * putter is finding reading Apple announcements strange...  "hey, Rosetta!  oh, wait, no again."
04:53 putter ;)
04:53 dduncan I hear thta
04:53 dduncan that
04:54 dduncan Apple probably won't mention theirs after a year or two, as its usefulness fades when apps are universalized
04:54 dduncan heck, I don't know for sure, but they may have just killed their Mac OS 9 compatability environment
04:55 dduncan at least, I heard it won't run on the intel machines, though I don't see why not
04:55 dduncan BlueBox should be emulatable like any other Mac OS X app for PPC
04:56 dduncan I know many people still have 9 apps that were never nativeized, like games
04:56 putter hmm...   ah.
04:57 putter err, do optional arguments need to be declared with ? now even in the presence of a default?  ie, is sub f($x = 3)  ok?   (more S29draft oddities)
04:58 putter or only sub f($x? = 3)  ?
05:10 svnbot6 r8655 | putter++ | docs/AES/S29draft.pod - tweaks.
05:10 svnbot6 r8655 | putter++ | Some Array methods were using "," instead of ":" - fixed.
05:10 svnbot6 r8655 | putter++ | Adjusted whitespace for alignment in some signatures.
05:10 svnbot6 r8655 | putter++ | Finished off luqui's conversion of CALLER::<$_> to $+_ .
05:10 svnbot6 r8655 | putter++ | QUESTION: some arguments with default values end in "?", others not.  Is this a typo?  Eg, f($x = 3) vs f($x? = 3).
05:11 avar $ perl -CO -le '$_=shift;s/\D//g;print chr hex' $(perl -CA -e 'printf "U%x\n", ord shift' ≠)
05:11 avar ≠
05:12 avar does perl 6 have an easy way to do the former thing?
05:12 avar I.e. an in-place s/// that returns the mutated string
05:12 avar pseudocode: print shift ~~ s/..
05:12 luqui avar, specced is $string.subst(/pattern/, "replacement"/
05:14 avar guess that kind-of-works
05:14 avar b.t.w. is pugs -e 'say shift' arg not supposed to work?
05:14 avar shift @ARGS does
05:23 putter avar: not sure, sorry.
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05:26 putter actually, I do know.  fiddled with its code earlier today. :)  shift defaults to the caller's @_.  unless in a global context @ARGS is somehow magically @_ (it may be, I just don't know), then shift() won't get you shift(@ARGS).
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05:30 putter luqui, anyone: S29draft has Array::grep etal in the List section.  That's just to keep them next to List::grep, and they are really Array methods, yes?
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06:20 svnbot6 r8656 | putter++ | src/PIL/misc/prelude/ - more fun converting Prim.hs to p6 for piln.
06:20 svnbot6 r8656 | putter++ | Array.pm - Added additional methods.  Now parses.  Still some TODOs.
06:20 svnbot6 r8656 | putter++ | Lazy.pm - Begun.
06:20 svnbot6 r8656 | putter++ | Extra eyeballs encouraged.
06:27 putter good night &
06:29 gaal night putter! morning #perl!
06:30 gaal s/l/l6/
06:30 gaal foundry is slooooow
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06:44 dduncan gaal, I agree, and it has been for a week plus
06:53 svnbot6 r8657 | Darren_Duncan++ |  r1950@Darren-Duncans-Computer:  darrenduncan | 2006-01-13 22:51:09 -0800
06:53 svnbot6 r8657 | Darren_Duncan++ |  /ext/Rosetta : in Rosetta.pm, removed placeholder class Rosetta::Interface::fubar
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07:17 dduncan it seems that Pug's version fetching code is busted ... with all the current updates, it says the version is 8580
07:17 dduncan perhaps this means that it broke after r8580
07:19 dduncan er, actually I will try a make clean et al and try again, since smoke says some people's are still working
07:19 dduncan maybe
07:20 * gaal ChangeLoggeth
07:27 dduncan a quick look in my system with svk info etc, and looking at version_h.pl, indicates that nothing changed in the version handling parts
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07:32 dduncan so everything is right up to and including the setting of pugs_version.h ; that file contains the right version
07:32 dduncan but the compiled pugs does not
07:32 dduncan maybe this is a make clean issue ... or a build bug
07:34 dduncan did make realclean, now trying rebuild ...
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08:23 gaal I'm taking a break from changelogging
08:23 svnbot6 r8658 | gaal++ | ChangeLog towards release - got to r8131; doesn't include objectspace stuff
08:23 gaal audreyt + stevan: I have ignored MM/OS stuff completely, please update yourselves
08:24 gaal everyone: please check your changes haven't slipped
08:24 gaal bbiab &
08:50 integral left perl6
09:27 * audreyt woke up from a 16+ hours sleep with a terribly starved stomach
09:29 * audreyt downloads the backlog and went out for some food... bbiab
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10:13 dduncan the clean rebuild seems to have worked; pugs now displays the correct version
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10:26 svnbot6 r8659 | Darren_Duncan++ |  r1956@Darren-Duncans-Computer:  darrenduncan | 2006-01-14 02:20:29 -0800
10:26 svnbot6 r8659 | Darren_Duncan++ |  small ChangeLog correction; moved items from Updated Modules to New Modules
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10:51 kane_ audreyt: codebase1 down for scheduled maintenance, but not up as expected -- no ETA yet, just FYI
10:53 dduncan well, naptime for me, but I should be back in about 10 hours
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11:19 gaal rehi
11:20 audreyt rerehi
11:20 gaal yo audreyt!
11:20 audreyt gaal++ # chglogging
11:20 audreyt yo!
11:21 gaal plans for release?
11:21 audreyt I ate too much and am feeling sleepy again... *pout*
11:21 gaal aw :)
11:21 audreyt plans for release is to work on Emit.PIR a bit
11:21 audreyt till we regain 01-sanity
11:21 audreyt and PGE
11:22 audreyt and then chase down test failures
11:22 gaal okay. I'm out of ideas re: multi export :-(
11:22 audreyt any outstanding regressions? multiexport?
11:22 audreyt ok, will fix that first in the testfail batch then. which test should I look for?
11:22 gaal ext/Algorithm-bucket or other; anything that does "skip".
11:23 gaal I left comments in the code with what I'd tried.
11:23 audreyt 'k
11:23 gaal I'll continue chlogging
11:23 audreyt that'd be lovely
11:23 gaal only ~500 rs to go :)
11:24 audreyt oh btw, have you sent me the invitation letter?
11:24 gaal cripes, no, sorry
11:24 audreyt I'm going to book airplane ticket and work on visa next week
11:24 audreyt 'sok
11:24 gaal Ah I need a fax/snailmail address too
11:25 audreyt msged
11:25 gaal got it, thanks :)
11:26 audreyt :)
11:28 * audreyt starts a smoke run in the bg
11:28 * gaal fixes his colinux to have more ram and not die with evacuate errors 60% into the smoke :(
11:31 audreyt so, nothing definitive with use_ok?
11:31 * audreyt ponders the equivalent of ok.pm in p6
11:31 gaal hmm, no, I need to fix that too
11:33 audreyt k
11:33 audreyt mm, the &skip looks like a showstopper. I'll tackle it now
11:42 ingy audreyt: hello
11:43 ingy I need to ask some questions of you
11:47 audreyt ingy: yes?
11:53 audreyt brb
11:53 audreyt ingy: oh, when do you leave .tw? I need to send the wristwatch to you
12:05 ingy audreyt: hi sorry, I leave on 26th
12:05 ingy I may come to Taipei next weekend
12:06 ingy I need to either release my YAML module unsigned, or register my key
12:07 ingy I could use some direction there...
12:08 ingy I think that goes for the other module releases I did
12:09 svnbot6 r8660 | gaal++ | tests in ext/ and t/ - workaround the breaking of 'use_ok'
12:09 gaal sorry big change to tests, audreyt you may want to resmoke
12:10 ingy hi gaal
12:10 gaal heya ingy, new YAML? yum! :)
12:11 ingy it's still not as tasty as it should be, but thanks
12:11 gaal "the breaking of 'use_ok'" sounds like "the hunting of the snark"
12:11 ingy ha
12:11 * ingy is done hunting snarks
12:12 gaal did you sell all your railway-share?
12:12 ingy yes
12:13 audreyt ingy: ok, we'll meet this weekend
12:13 ingy audreyt: also i need to know if I register my key how long that will take to become effective.
12:13 ingy next weekend you mean?
12:14 gaal fglock: ping
12:14 gaal rafl: ping
12:14 gaal kane_: ping
12:15 ingy audreyt: are you highly distracted?
12:15 gaal this is like ping 255.255.255.255 :)
12:16 rafl gaal: pong
12:16 audreyt ingy: "register" your key?
12:16 ingy yeah
12:16 rafl gaal: Hurry up. I need to get a train.
12:16 audreyt ingy: yeah, today is my off-ritalin day since 5 days of it :)
12:16 gaal rafl: hi! I'm not going into any detail about JIB/sixpan stuff in the changelog, please prepare a summary of what you think needs to be mentioned.
12:17 audreyt ingy: I don't know about registering... probably just "gpg --send-key 0xDEADBEEF"
12:17 gaal rafl: you don't have to do this right now, but please do it before the release
12:17 ingy hmm. people are having trouble installing YAML because of the gpg signing
12:17 rafl gaal: OK. I think I can do that this evening.
12:17 rafl gaal: When will the release be?
12:17 ingy which module::install forced on me
12:18 gaal rafl: thanks. probably much later tonight our time, or tomorrow.
12:18 audreyt ingy: huh? I think you have an old M::I
12:18 ingy does a newer version not be so nazi?
12:18 audreyt the forced signing was a bug that's been resolved a while ago
12:18 ingy ok
12:18 rafl gaal: OK. Thanks for the reminder.
12:18 ingy do I need a new Module::Signature?
12:18 gaal rafl: sure :)
12:18 audreyt yeah, you were releasing with .47
12:18 audreyt 0.54 would do much better
12:19 audreyt that's optional
12:19 ingy or just a new Module::Install?
12:19 audreyt just a new M::I would do
12:19 gaal audreyt: do we have other showstoppers except multis and PGE?
12:19 ingy ok, thanks...
12:19 ingy audreyt: also i want to add YAML.pm tests to YAML::Syck if that is ok
12:20 audreyt gaal: PIR targetting
12:20 audreyt ingy: sure, just committ
12:20 audreyt gaal: -BPIR
12:20 audreyt gaal: but that's all
12:20 gaal audreyt: unfortunately it looks like you're in the critical path for all three of these :)
12:21 ingy audreyt: thanks. you can go back to your distractions :)
12:21 ingy audreyt++
12:21 gaal I have today for misc. releng tasks like changelog and bughunting
12:21 gaal but none of tomorrow I'm afraid.
12:22 audreyt sure, chglogging + bughunting for regressions would be much help
12:22 audreyt I'll solve all three in the upcoming 24hrs :)
12:23 gaal cool. there are a few yellows in the smoke too I've noticed, btw.
12:24 audreyt mmm the color of unexpectedness
12:26 gaal PJF: ping
12:27 gaal (anyone with cygwin): ping
12:27 gaal PJF++ fixed the port, I want to make sure it's still fixed for the release.
12:29 audreyt I can test
12:29 audreyt which would require a reboot... so bbiab :)
12:30 gaal :)
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12:55 gaal it would be nice to get variable exports in for this release too, but I wouldn't bet on my completing it :/
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12:56 mncharity is now known as putter
12:57 gaal hey putter
12:58 putter hey gaal
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13:02 putter gaal: re variable export, something I didnt appreciate until just now reading the responses to stevan's p6l post re the object hierarchy, is just how much in flux the whole thing is.  To manage the "big p6 prelude" in the face of such flux, one really wants powerful (say haskell like) imports, either in use() or does().
13:02 audreyt indeed.
13:02 audreyt s/either/both/
13:02 * audreyt is, amazingly, still rebooting win32 thanks to various secutiry updates.
13:03 audreyt it's been a long while since I booted here.
13:03 audreyt s/secutiry/security/
13:06 gaal putter: I'd love to add that stuff, if I knew what it looked like :)
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13:18 putter "Security updates are available.  To install them (and thus maintain system security for another few hours), press Ok.  To be immediately compromised, press Skip."
13:18 putter both++
13:20 * putter tries to think of a language which handles it well, to use as a prototype...
13:21 audreyt Scala?
13:24 svnbot6 r8661 | autrijus++ | * cygwin build fix -- integrated from M::I
13:25 putter re both, definitely both.  use() is not sufficient because it would basically ahve to take over from the inheritance/mixin system.  package and kids (modules, roles) are not sufficient because you want to be able to inherit/mixin and thus modularize things which impact multiple namespaces.
13:25 audreyt gaal: cygwin works.
13:25 audreyt (using ghc 6.4.0 deliberately)
13:25 audreyt will retest with 6.4.1
13:25 audreyt but should work as well
13:25 * putter doesnt have a clear idea of what a win would look like.  going to look again a scala...
13:25 audreyt actually
13:25 audreyt JS2.
13:26 audreyt http://www.mozilla.org/js/langua​ge/js20-1999-03-25/packages.html
13:26 audreyt it's an early draft
13:26 audreyt hunt a newer one?
13:27 audreyt http://www.mozilla.org/js/lan​guage/js20/core/packages.html
13:28 audreyt hm, but it doesn't handle mutual-use
13:29 putter and http://scala.epfl.ch/docu/files/ScalaReference.pdf  sec 4.7
13:30 putter physical page 42
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13:37 svnbot6 r8662 | iblech++ | * Usual svn props.
13:37 svnbot6 r8662 | iblech++ | * util/file_to_hs.pl: "DO NOT EDIT THIS FILE" is added to the output files now.
13:39 svnbot6 r8663 | gaal++ | ChangeLog updates to r8657
13:40 gaal rehi
13:40 gaal audreyt: re: cygwin - yay! I thought we required 6.4.0?
13:40 svnbot6 r8664 | autrijus++ | * cygwin CRLF fix for gen_prelude
13:40 putter iblech! :)
13:40 audreyt gaal: sure, we require 6.4.[01]
13:40 gaal err I meant I thought we required .1 :)
13:41 gaal glad to be wrong, fixing changelog.
13:41 putter definitely need .1 on x86-64.
13:43 svnbot6 r8665 | gaal++ | ChangeLog - 6.4.1 recommended, 6.4.0 possible on some platforms
13:44 gaal okay, the brunt of ChangeLogging is done.
13:45 audreyt woot
13:45 audreyt gaal++
13:45 gaal audreyt: you and stevan in particular still have lots of work to do there :)
13:46 audreyt GHC 6.4.1 vs cygwin is also confirmed as working.
13:47 audreyt vs 6.5-head is broken due to ghc bug (getDirectoryContent)
13:47 audreyt no tuits for a core fix now
13:47 audreyt I'll boot back to a far saner system :)
13:47 gaal lol
13:50 * gaal start a build for smoking
13:51 gaal s/t /ts/
13:52 putter dylan http://oop.rosweb.ru/dylan/book.annotated/ch5.html http://www.gwydiondylan.org/​books/drm/Program_Structure   eh.  proto and goo (dylan kids) went overboard towards simplicity.
13:53 putter oh, actually, goo did.  rechecking proto.
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13:59 chris2 mmmh, goo. what a nice language it was
14:00 audreyt heh, http://people.csail.mit.edu/j​rb/goo/wiki/index.php/GooNews
14:01 audreyt http://boo.codehaus.org/Language+Features
14:01 putter nice biography with ps/pdf papers http://readscheme.org/modules/
14:01 chris2 i'd be satisfied with a sexpr dylan, actually :-)
14:03 audreyt putter: heh, I was just looking for that link
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14:06 chris2 can your syck round-trip {[]=>""} ?
14:07 audreyt chris2: for PIL^N p6hash types, yes, but the normal runcore still has Str keys
14:07 audreyt s/normal/current/
14:07 chris2 i mean, does it really work? because there is a bug in ruby 1.9 wrt that
14:08 audreyt let me write a quick test
14:10 rafl gaal: Is it OK to edit the changelog directly?
14:10 gaal rafl: yes.
14:11 audreyt emit works
14:11 gaal audreyt: you're emitting yaml from PIL^N? wow
14:12 kane_ gaal: pong
14:12 kane_ ah, rafl... long time no see
14:12 audreyt loading works
14:12 gaal kane_: hey. please talk with rafl re: updating the changelog with your changes in the past ~month; we're planning a release soon.
14:12 audreyt chris2: parseYaml "--- { []: \"\" }" looks good to me
14:12 audreyt gaal++ # nice binding
14:13 kane_ gaal: exclude JIB for now :)
14:13 gaal audreyt++ # loads of help
14:13 chris2 and that's what gets generated?
14:13 chris2 because it should be  ? [] : "", i think
14:13 kane_ rafl: on that note, RL has caught up with me in a bad way... no time for JIB for a while it looks like :(
14:13 audreyt oh.
14:13 * audreyt turns inlining off
14:13 gaal chris2: isn't that the same thing?
14:14 audreyt aha.
14:14 chris2 what is {"[]" => ""} then ?
14:14 audreyt trunk syck under noinling generates
14:14 audreyt ? []\n: ""
14:14 audreyt but the release syck (which pugs now uses) gens
14:14 rafl kane_: I won't have much time until february as well.
14:14 audreyt "--- \n[]\n: \n"
14:14 gaal kane_: please write with rafl whatever you think appropriate directly.
14:14 audreyt which is indeed a parsefail
14:15 chris2 okay, so it's a syck bug, not a ruby one :)
14:15 gaal hmm, we can update to trunk syck, but doesn't that have stylistic output problems? or were thouse fixed?
14:15 audreyt gaal: it always generates ?
14:16 audreyt probably to fix exactly this bug
14:16 gaal heh.
14:16 audreyt as it doesn't srop the ? even on simple strings
14:16 putter Mixin modules for dynamic rebinding http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/730012.html  (not on the readscheme list)
14:16 audreyt s/srop/drop/
14:16 chris2 oh :)
14:16 audreyt gaal: maybe we should consider using trunk syck and turn on inlining
14:16 * audreyt ponders
14:17 chris2 ? "bla" : foo is icky
14:17 audreyt yeah. definitely need adaptable stuff
14:17 audreyt chris2: ping Why to fix it?
14:17 chris2 he reads ruby-core
14:18 gaal he did mention he had a release coming up...
14:19 audreyt gaal:
14:19 audreyt pugs> eval(/1/.yaml, :lang<yaml>)
14:19 audreyt {rule}
14:19 audreyt it worksforme
14:19 audreyt parrot 0.4.1
14:19 audreyt what was the problem?
14:19 audreyt (external parrot)
14:19 audreyt trying with embparrot now
14:20 gaal audreyt: I think the problem isn't in .yaml at all, it's in embparrot PGE
14:20 audreyt ok, looking
14:20 gaal 0.4.1 also
14:20 gaal brb, getting food
14:31 gaal shapr++ # "Haskell separates Church from state"
14:32 audreyt shapr++
14:36 * putter wishes the individual... clauses/implementations/mumble (what is the jargon?) of multis were themselves first class objects.   or at least, given multi f,  f ::= assemble_a_multi(f.disassemble.filter(...));
14:38 * gaal 's machine crashes again :(
14:38 putter !
14:39 SamB wasn't Church already seperated from state?
14:39 gaal this happens a lot. make smoke... ghc evacuate errors ... look at temperature... kablooie
14:39 SamB gaal: are you actually talking about smoke/temperature?
14:40 gaal SamB: make smoke pushes the cpu, causing high temperatures etc.
14:40 SamB gaal: ah
14:40 gaal yeah, this chip runs hot :(
14:40 * SamB is glad to have a PII
14:40 putter throttle chip in bios?
14:41 gaal I should shop for RAM for the old laptop so I can make optimized /preludepc builds with it
14:41 putter add memory quota to force swapping? ;)
14:41 gaal putter: I haven't found the option. it's a leet gamer bios, only good for overclocking :(
14:41 gaal putter: :)
14:42 gaal maybe I should submerge the thing in oil like those crazy hackers
14:42 SamB CPUs that overheat at 100% usage sound like a pain.
14:43 putter gaal: linux?
14:44 gaal actually, is there a way to isolate the culprit? maybe it's faulty ram or bios?
14:44 gaal putter: uh, sorta. debian on colinux on winxp
14:44 SamB especially if the schedular doesn't give them idle time to keep the temperature down...
14:45 putter k.  I've a fuzzy recollection there is a hard cpu quota available, so you could say max 50% cpu, and will get 50% idle if nothing else is happening on system.
14:45 gaal putter: at what level?
14:45 SamB but I don't think Pentium IIs ever have this problem, so I am happy ;-)
14:45 gaal i'd just lower the clock speed by 15%
14:46 gaal but I don't know how.
14:46 SamB I mean, unless the fan breaks or something...
14:46 gaal SamB: how long does a pugs build take you?
14:46 SamB it takes a long time
14:47 SamB haven't done it lately though
14:50 putter gaal: or not.  couldn't find it.  hmm.  suspend ghc for m seconds every n seconds?
14:50 gaal loop { sleep 1 ; kill STOP, $ghc; sleep 1; kill CONT, $ghc }
14:50 gaal heh.
14:50 putter :)
14:53 putter hmm... dust accumulated in case/power supply/fan blades?
14:53 putter heat sink?
14:53 audreyt hm, running into parrot pthreading bugs.
14:53 audreyt or maybe it's freebsd pthreading bugs.
14:54 * putter starts build...
14:57 * audreyt decides to sleep some more and do the releng with a wakeful mind
14:57 audreyt aha, parrot only fails when built with parrot_is_shared
14:58 putter someone said something about a load library path(?) issue on #perl6 within the last few days.
14:58 putter gaal?
14:59 gaal putter: no dust/cat fur, and the cpu itself was replaced
14:59 putter ohhhhh!  maybe a bad cpu-heatsink bond?
14:59 gaal putter: no, that was just in running; export LD_LIBRARY_PATH=.../blib/lib worked.
14:59 putter is the heatsink itself very hot?
14:59 gaal putter: how do I tell?
15:00 putter touch it?  or is this a laptop?
15:00 gaal i'm on the laptop now; the problem machine is a desktop. but what's considered hot? is hot ok?
15:01 chris2 dont you have any sensors?
15:01 gaal anyway there's a huge fan sitting on the heatsink, this is a p4
15:01 gaal chris2: it can get to 80C.
15:01 chris2 ooh
15:01 gaal prescott :(
15:02 chris2 my athlon xp always crashed around 72
15:02 chris2 pentium at least has overheating protection :P
15:02 gaal it's supposed to be designed to run this hot
15:02 gaal i think
15:03 putter another possibility is to look at how fast it cools down.  once the load is gone, the temp should drop quickly, limited only by thermal mass of heat sink.  if it doesnt...
15:03 gaal it does, actualyl.
15:03 putter heat sink rated for the cpu?
15:03 gaal iirc goes to about 50 or 40 even
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15:04 gaal putter: how do I check?
15:04 chris2 that said, my ibook fan only spins when i do haskell related stuff :P
15:04 putter heat sink spec sheet?
15:04 putter ha, cant say / box at the beginning of an irc line. ;)
15:07 * gaal takes a break also
15:07 gaal bbiab &
15:08 putter basically the chain goes something vaguely like; clockspeed/voltage too high, bad cpu/heatsink bond, heat sink too small, insufficient airflow over sink (eg, sink fan dead, or a temp->speed control not doing the right thing), case hot. ;)
15:08 putter bye gaal.  good nap audreyt.
15:10 audreyt see ya :) *wave*
15:10 putter gaal: re use/does, the low-hanging immediately tasty fruit would be use() preserving order of multi overwrites.  Ie, two
15:10 putter &
15:11 * ingy eats a bowl of mueslix with milk using a metal spoon and pines for apple pie
15:13 ingy (which I'm sure they probably have at the corner Taiwanese 7-11) :\
15:14 ingy mmm milk... *sigh*
15:15 putter multi f(Num $n) {$n+1} and multi f(Num $n) {$n+2} in the same file, the first definition wins.  (on pil2js with an warning).  But if you put them in separate files, and use() them, the order of the two use()s does not matter.  Oh my.  The file name determines the order.
15:17 * ingy notices for the first time that gugod has no oven...
15:17 putter If that were changed to use() order, we could start creating a unified pil2js/piln/etc p6 prelude.
15:17 putter I think.
15:18 * ingy stares at the prebuttered garlic bread just procured from the grocery
15:18 * putter is being made hungry by ingy.  this is not a good thing.  ;)
15:19 * ingy reluctantly walk over to the microwave :\
15:19 ingy hi putter
15:19 putter hi ingy
15:20 ingy how's New England?
15:20 putter I'm told it was supposed to get nasty today.  20degF drop from yesterday.  Still looks fine.  Maybe later.
15:21 ingy yucky
15:21 ingy we been having a most unfortunate streak of sunny days in the 70s here in Taiwan
15:21 putter boooooorrrrriiinnngggg.  ;)
15:22 putter my sympathy.
15:22 ingy well I deserve your tears because I sleep all day, so it does me no good
15:24 * putter has (re)discovered the joy of getting up a few hours pre-Sun.  City veerrrry quiet.  (good for hunting wabbits)
15:24 putter bbiab
15:24 ingy intewesting
15:30 lisppaste3 joined perl6
15:51 nothingmuch joined perl6
15:51 * audreyt spent far too much time 1)joining acm.org and 2)reading papers
16:00 putter joined perl6
16:01 putter papers++ acm-digital-library-policy-=12
16:01 putter piln, piln, ra!
16:02 putter got to go.  bye all.  happy hacking. &
16:04 nothingmuch seen gaal?
16:04 jabbot nothingmuch: gaal was seen 56 minutes 23 seconds ago
16:06 gaal joined perl6
16:08 * gaal is dazed from a misconfigured nap, searches for caffeine
16:12 justatheory joined perl6
16:19 gaal nothingmuch: you pang? - got your email
16:21 obra morning
16:21 gaal hey obra
16:23 nothingmuch yeah, it was about the email
16:23 nothingmuch sorry =(
16:23 nothingmuch got your reply though
16:24 gaal rereplying
16:27 * gaal wanders off to wake up again &
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16:57 leo_ audreyt: I saw your freebsd troubles - still problems?
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19:18 wolverian hm, any idea if -a and @F still exist in perl6?
19:22 sapper left perl6
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19:47 gaal wolverian: the command line is almost completely unspecced
19:47 wolverian right. well, given laziness, I was just thinking it could be @F[line; column]
19:48 wolverian that seemed a tad more elegant.
19:49 gaal you mean for line number? interesting, but only efficient if it's used monotonically rising.
19:51 gaal afk &
19:53 elmex joined perl6
19:56 wolverian gaal, more efficient than using -n? if it's equally efficient it doesn't matter.
20:09 elmex joined perl6
20:14 wolverian also (just brainstorming): perl6 -e'@ARGS».open».lines».splitÂ​»[0].grep(/^129\./).uniq.elems' /var/log/apache2/access.log*
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21:38 putter Ok, here's an odd thought.
21:39 putter class A{#A1} package P{class A{#A2} class B is A;}
21:41 putter my recollection, which may be out of date, is that this is specced as defining A, P::A, and P::B, where P::B is P::A.  That's A2.  All references to A in P::B are understood as P::A.
21:41 putter This isnt the current pugs behavior.  But let's say it was.
21:43 putter package Test1 { use BigP6Prelude; &bootstrap(); }   could give you a oo system in a box.  Test1::Object, Test1::Array, Test1::infix:<+>, etc, etc.
21:45 putter And you could simultaneously have a Test2, etc.  And they could all be differently structured systems.  Item in one but not the other, etc.  And they are relatively self contained.  Only if one says ::*:: does one pop out of the box.
21:46 putter The underlying p6 system in which the packages TestN are defined, is serving the role of the underlying backend runtime.
21:47 putter One can execute code in any of them.  With   package Test2 { blah } , blah sees the Test2 object system.
21:48 putter Does this hang together?  Am I missing something?
21:49 putter It raises the question of, can we have chroot? :)   chroot Test1 { ::*::Foo }  with Foo now referring to Test1::Foo.
21:55 avar is now known as avar\away
21:55 putter And of how scoping for the parser is handled.  Can each of the TestN have their own current parser state, set of macros, etc.  If so, then we could have multiple simultaneous p6 systems running.
21:56 putter stevan, audreyt, anyone: thoughts?
21:56 putter stevan: among the many languages you've written bootstrap code for, is p6 among them? :)
21:57 putter Hmm, is the pil bootstrap just p6 plus backtick?  Could one macro backtick and get a p6 bootstrap?
22:00 putter Oh, on rereading, one can of course "pop out of the box" (in the absence of chroot) by simply calling something defined in the underlying p6 and not shadowed by the Test one.
22:04 justatheory joined perl6
22:09 * putter goes back to trying to think of ways to have a single shared big agile prelude.
22:16 * putter again considers attempting to hack in full-file source filtering.  Sign by highway: "if you lived here, you would be home now".  if we could write a little filter, we could easily dodge classes not quite working.  our current macros just aren't quite powerful enough.
22:18 putter could just prepend $?PACKAGE:: to all class names in the prelude... ;)
22:20 putter (currently #A2 lands on the top level A.  #A1  ::*::A )
22:26 putter ah well.  small goals.  get piln.  flesh it out with any sort of prelude.  giving working objects.  and then we can have fun.
22:27 putter of course, everyone is welcome to have fun before then too. ;)
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22:48 putter hi iblech(bot)
22:49 vel joined perl6
23:03 nothingmuch does anyone here camp a lot?
23:04 elmex you mean idle ?
23:04 elmex elmex++
23:04 perlbot What kind of idiot karmas himself?  Your kind of idiot!
23:04 elmex perlbot--
23:04 putter ok, re source filtering.  how about a new ruleWithCurrentInput which defines a keyword/statement  with_current_input <identifier>;  which getState and setState's with a new input of  <identifier> <<ENDD old input ENDD  so...
23:05 putter macro f($input) { my $src = $input; $src ~~ s/Foo/Bar/g; $src }    with_current_input f;  blah Foo blah
23:06 putter hi nothingmuch
23:07 nothingmuch elmex- err nope, like in nature
23:07 nothingmuch hi putter
23:08 putter anyone have api comments?  or understand Parser guts enough to say "sounds vaguely (im)plausible"?
23:09 nothingmuch me backs out carefully
23:09 * putter wishes there were more people here UTC night
23:09 putter lol
23:09 putter "but wait, there's more.  for only $9.99USD, you get..."
23:14 putter what was it Alice (in Wonderland) said?  Believe N impossible things before breakfast?  So I'm off to dinner. ;)
23:14 putter audreyt, anyone: comments on source filter idea would be appreciated.
23:14 putter good night all &
23:17 mjl69 joined perl6
23:28 putter joined perl6
23:29 putter hey, at least currently, one could have an api of  quote_current_input  or somesuch.
23:29 putter pugs> quote_current_input foo bar hee
23:29 putter " foo bar hee"
23:30 lisppaste3 joined perl6
23:32 putter so,   macro f($in){my $s=$in; $s =~ s/Foo/Bar/g; $s} ... f quote_current_input ... all this gets handed to f ... .  ie,  input "quote_current_input everything to eof" -> "<<END everything to eof END".
23:32 putter &
23:37 xinming joined perl6
23:38 putter joined perl6
23:39 putter hey, its just a normal-ish quote operator, q-with-eof-terminator! :)
23:39 putter &

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