Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-01-22

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
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00:26 svnbot6 r8769 | putter++ | Parser.hs - added q_to_eof(), the beginnings of file-level source filters.
00:26 svnbot6 r8769 | putter++ | Currently, the best one can do is  use Mumble; mumble_macro q_to_eof(); ... .
00:26 svnbot6 r8769 | putter++ | Which isn't much better than heredocs.  But the complexity cost is low - it's
00:26 svnbot6 r8769 | putter++ | only 6 lines of simple code, only one of which touches the existing parser.
00:26 svnbot6 r8769 | putter++ | This simplicity is also why it wasn't integrated as q:to_eof/uncertain_semantics/.
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00:58 Juerd rafl: I still haven't received my camera, and fear it may be lost in transit
00:59 Juerd rafl: Do you perchance have a tracking number?
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01:34 putter r8766 smokes of normal, pil2js, and pir are up on http://m19s28.vlinux.de/cgi-bin/pugs-smokeserv.pl , under their various "repository snapshot / linux".  fyi.
01:36 putter
01:38 putter luqui: we should chat sometime about regexp engine designs.
01:45 putter
01:47 putter tewk: how did the numbers.t :2<1001> etc parser code go?  is it committed?  would you like someone to help out?
01:48 putter I assume you saw bsb++ refactoring of number()...
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03:25 putter hey stevan
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03:42 putter http://www.smock.de/jsmock/en/33-hints.html Hints for Computer System Design - a classic
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03:45 audreyt woot
03:45 putter ?
03:45 * audreyt posted mg.h patch to p5p
03:45 * putter googles
03:45 audreyt fixed 5.8.8rc1's swig interop problem yesterday
03:45 putter ah :)
03:45 audreyt http://perlcabal.org/~autrijus/tmp/mg.h.diff
03:46 audreyt so I can use svk again
03:46 audreyt good thing that this is caught in RC before it bites another person :)
03:47 * audreyt proceeds to fix other svk/perl588 incompats
03:47 putter sigh.  one word and boom.  thus the argument for biological-analog software.
03:48 audreyt mm biological-analog.
03:48 audreyt "I cut my finger but my brain doesn't turn to blue screen"
03:48 putter *chuckle* :)
03:48 audreyt what's project oxygen doing nowadays anyway.
03:48 putter no idea
03:49 audreyt it's been over a year with no press release or confs or anything
03:50 audreyt okay, the svk side is fixed as well
03:50 audreyt "svk sy" no longer segfaults ;)
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03:51 dduncan hello there
03:51 audreyt dduncan: greetings!
03:51 dduncan I am now running Mac OS X 10.4.4 Tiger for the first time
03:51 dduncan yesterday it was 10.3.9
03:51 dduncan so far so good
03:51 audreyt wonderful
03:51 audreyt so you can get svk installed? :)
03:51 dduncan I still have to reinstall GHC and svk and such under the new system
03:52 dduncan however, svk should be easier to do than before
03:52 dduncan because the current package installers were Tiger-only before
03:52 dduncan I had to do the package source to make it work under panther
03:52 audreyt nodnod
03:52 dduncan I don't anticipate problems, though
03:53 audreyt putter++ # having a smoke ready for me so I don't have to run the loop first
03:53 audreyt okay, back to triaging.
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03:54 audreyt ooh, hs' is made public. I can finally talk about it freely here :D
03:54 audreyt # http://www.haskell.org//pipermail/ha​skell-cafe/2006-January/014036.html
03:55 dduncan audreyt, a comment on your latest journal entry
03:55 putter actually, it's more than just ARPA.  US funding for research is starting to look.. almost european. ;)
03:55 dduncan I saw the 5.8.8 change summary too
03:56 dduncan and it looked mainly like the updates were putting in newer versions of bundled modules
03:56 audreyt that happens every release
03:56 audreyt but look at "Performance Enhancements ^" and "Performance Enhancements ^"
03:57 dduncan can you name anything specific in the core that was particularly better?
03:57 dduncan the other stuff I saw mentioned some refactoring, and that the binary is smaller than before
03:58 dduncan is that it mainly, or are there actual feature/behaviour changes that are quite noticible?
03:58 audreyt O(1) weakrefs; no redundant SVGV creation; aggresive "static" and "const"ing of core; utf8 under debugger no longer results in 100x slowdown
03:58 dduncan I've used weakrefs and never understood that there was a speed problem with them
03:58 audreyt if you used it in ithreads context, then you would
03:58 audreyt <- deployed ithread application under mod_perl2 in Win32
03:59 dduncan okay, if that 0(1) thing relates to ithreads ...
03:59 audreyt anyway, this is a point release, so obviously there would be no features
03:59 dduncan I haven't done any multithreaded stuff yet
03:59 dduncan not even minor features?
03:59 putter :)
03:59 dduncan well, no matter
03:59 audreyt no, I think the point of point releases is that minor features is only added if the old misfeature is too broken
03:59 audreyt and as we are at 5.8.8, that probably doesn't happen
03:59 dduncan I expect to test it soon enough
04:00 audreyt oh, if you want to recompile svk with it (not likely, but in the off chance), I just posted a patch to p5p5
04:00 audreyt http://perlcabal.org/~autrijus/tmp/mg.h.diff
04:00 audreyt it should be merged in RC2
04:00 audreyt (without that, swig fails)
04:02 dduncan in the short term, I'm going to just install svk using the system perl (5.8.6 now) as last time (the svk installer didn't work when linking to my custom perl 5.8.7, in a nonstandard location, while I use the custom for everything else)
04:02 audreyt that'd work merrily.
04:03 audreyt wow, the #haskell people are crazy at this alioth thing
04:03 audreyt I swore they were at 3rd place yesterday, now it's 2nd
04:03 audreyt # http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/b​enchmark.php?test=all&amp;lang=all
04:04 * audreyt ponders having a exapmles/shootout/
04:06 audreyt anyway, lunch+triage first. bbiab &
04:07 putter haskell - its never a problem to optimize... if you can bring the entire hs community to bear. ;)
04:07 audreyt I think that's true for every free language :)
04:10 putter :)  I wish I could see diffs over time of the implementations...
04:10 audreyt (otoh, nonfree languages also have communities, and sometimes they can even write optimizers without access to code)
04:10 audreyt putter: it's all on hawiki
04:10 audreyt http://haskell.org/hawiki/RecentChanges
04:10 audreyt grep for "Entry"
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04:11 putter ahh, nifty
04:18 putter ok, have cold, wiped.  good night all &  happy hacking.
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05:55 meppl guten morgen
06:10 azuroth morning
06:30 meppl good morning azuroth
06:30 azuroth what's on the plates today?
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07:58 svnbot6 r8770 | audreyt++ | * Adverbial number forms eg. :16<deadbeef> works, as does :16[14,15].
07:58 svnbot6 r8770 | audreyt++ |   Still doesn't do the horribly complicated nested forms and
07:58 svnbot6 r8770 | audreyt++ |   multiplication and exponentiation; TODOing 3 test out of 65.
08:04 svnbot6 r8771 | audreyt++ | * Remove hex() and oct() from prims, per S02.
08:04 svnbot6 r8771 | audreyt++ | * Update hex.t and numbers.t accordingly.
08:04 svnbot6 r8772 | audreyt++ | * hexadecimal.t: Use the new \x[abcd] form instead of \x{abcd}.
08:04 svnbot6 r8772 | audreyt++ |   All tests pass there now.
08:17 Kattana Good to see development carrys on in the (night|morning), even on the weekend.
08:21 audreyt :)
08:29 Kattana I guess it will be a while before I catch up with the big fish, atm I am standing on the bottom, drowning, and everything is getting dimmer with each little bubble of info I see.
08:43 audreyt "perl6 can cause oxygen starvation"
08:47 Kattana If only that had been in a faq or somewhere, I would have taken a deep breath first.
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11:07 rafl Juerd: I'll ask my flatmate, who shiped it, tomorrow.
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13:22 Juerd rafl: Okay, thanks
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15:24 Limbic_Region anyone else having build problems on Win32?
15:28 * Juerd refrains from silly win32 bashing
15:29 Juerd Only three users on feather right now. Why are people using it less and less?
15:29 Alias_ feather?
15:29 wolverian feather.perl6.nl
15:30 Limbic_Region Juerd - I only need feather access from work which is where I can't connect to
15:30 webmind Juerd, I think the unusability with high load might have an impact ?
15:30 Juerd webmind: It might, but no-one except you has reported it to me, and I've yet to experience it.
15:30 wolverian Juerd, I use it all the time to test pugs.
15:30 Juerd Besides, the load hasn't been high in a while.
15:30 Limbic_Region Juerd - and I am not a Win32 or a *nix bigot - I use whatever is available
15:30 webmind Juerd, care for the logs ?
15:30 Juerd webmind: If that shows that it's unusably high, sure
15:30 Juerd But high load and inavailability aren't the same thing.
15:31 webmind well they tell you load and cpu usage
15:31 Juerd Feather had a load of over 20 for days, a while ago, and was perfectly usable then.
15:31 webmind ok
15:31 Juerd Linux is quite capable of managing load
15:31 webmind the k-line on efnet maybe then ?
15:32 webmind hmm, not sure agree on that for workstations though
15:32 webmind even with nice levels it somestimes just is crap
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15:33 wolverian I haven't had any problems with gnome after I upgraded to 768mb ram. before I'd get regular lockups. I think it's just I/O that people experience
15:33 Juerd Is it klined?!
15:33 Juerd WTF?
15:34 wolverian I hope it's not, as I'm ircing on efnet fro mit
15:34 Juerd I can connect it to irc.efnet.nl quite properly.
15:34 wolverian s,fro mit,from it,
15:34 Juerd So no, that c8an't be a reason.
15:34 Juerd webmind: Why are you the only one who experiences this and mentions it?
15:34 Juerd Have I done so badly to indicate that I'm available for comments and complaints? :(
15:35 webmind Juerd, no I think it has more to do with human nature and not complaining
15:35 webmind or actually more a cultural thing
15:36 webmind but I'm just good at complaining :)
15:36 webmind ah efnet works now yes.. there used to be a kline
15:36 webmind a week back or so
15:36 Juerd With so little actual use, it's becoming less worth the costs of maintaining its existince.
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15:37 webmind hmm
15:37 aufrank good $time_of_day everyone!
15:37 webmind good day
15:37 Juerd Hi
15:38 aufrank I've got 1, maybe 2, bugs with the make install process.  I haven't had any success eliminating them on my own
15:38 Juerd And it's important to note that there haven't been many newcomers anymore
15:40 lisppaste3 aufrank pasted "make install bug" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/15902
15:45 lisppaste3 aufrank pasted "maybe a bug?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/15903
15:45 webmind Juerd, well set a poll in the motd
15:45 webmind or when it's really a problem mail to the list ?
15:46 webmind or find a way to attract more perl6 coders
15:46 Juerd webmind: "Why are you not using feather?" in feather's motd doesn't quite work ;)
15:46 webmind ofcourse it could be that people are just using it more on their own hardware
15:46 Juerd I have a list of mail addresses of users. I should start using it.
15:47 webmind yep :)
15:47 Juerd webmind: That's certainly possible.
15:48 rafl Juerd: Re eu-geek-tour: Any news? Do you already know what you want to visit?
15:49 Juerd rafl: I think I'll just do it, except for the cebit part. That's expensive and makes the entire tour last way too long.
15:49 rafl Juerd: I'm also not that interested in cebit, so that's fine with me.
15:49 rafl Juerd: Do you have a schedule?
15:49 Juerd And going from .de to .nl and then back again is a little silly :)
15:50 rafl Juerd: Indeed.
15:50 Juerd rafl: Yep, hold on
15:50 Juerd I should clip my nails.
15:51 rafl That's what I'm telling me for almost two weeks now.
15:51 Juerd It becomes harder to use a laptop keyboard as nails grow.
15:51 Juerd Why do we have nails anyway?
15:51 rafl To scrape ourselfs?
15:51 wolverian ask the intelligent design proponents.
15:51 integral to peel the foil off the top of meals-for-one
15:52 Juerd http://tnx.nl/4433BNBF
15:52 rafl Or to chew them maybe..
15:52 Alias_ To praise the lord
15:52 Juerd integral: I have a leatherman for that.
15:52 webmind Juerd, imagine your fingers without them.. I think it would be less solid typing
15:52 lypanov is the darcs repo up to date?
15:52 Alias_ To claw out the eyes of the heathen masses
15:52 webmind also they help in opening packages and astuff
15:52 rafl Juerd: So why don't you use it for that instead of punishing other people as you did in Berlin?
15:52 webmind -a
15:53 Juerd rafl: Because I'm a hacker.
15:53 Juerd I use whatever tool is effective :)
15:54 rafl Juerd: There are other tools that are more effective for that. And it would be even more effective for creating social connections not to harm anyone..
15:55 Juerd rafl: There weren't that many tools around, IIRC :)
15:55 Juerd rafl: And I don't think social connections were harmed :)
15:57 rafl Juerd: Actually it was funny.. right.
15:57 Juerd rafl: Anyway, what do you say re geektour :)
15:57 Juerd Especially something on feb 27 or feb 28 would be nice :)
15:57 rafl Juerd: I'll join. Do we have space for Timo?
15:58 Juerd My car moves 4 people comfortably, 5 less so
15:58 Juerd And I don't have any passengers registered yet
15:58 Juerd So, yea
15:58 Juerd webmind: Will you join? :)
15:58 rafl Great. Then we also have someone that'll drive with us from Bochum to Chemnitz.
15:58 rafl Juerd: So please register me. I'll ask Timo tomorrow.
15:59 rafl Juerd: No idea that to do on 2{7,8}.2.
15:59 webmind Juerd, not sure yet
15:59 Juerd rafl: Do you have a driving license?
15:59 rafl Juerd: We could can do a chemnitz perl mongers meeting in 6.3.
15:59 rafl Juerd: No.
15:59 webmind first thing I'm going to plan now is to let someone cut in my eyes
16:00 webmind wellaaround them
16:00 Juerd rafl: Especially Chemnitz -> Amsterdam is WAY too much for me alone.
16:00 webmind and then plan around that
16:00 rafl Juerd: Timo as well.
16:00 Juerd rafl: Also no license?
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16:00 rafl Juerd: Right.
16:00 Juerd rafl: 6/3 is needed for the LONG drive
16:01 rafl Juerd: How long will that take?
16:01 Juerd rafl: 7 hours if all goes well
16:02 rafl Juerd: OK, thats long. But we don't have any events on that day, so we can do a lot of breaks..
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16:03 Juerd rafl: Right, but still, even with breaks, it's quite a lot for one driver :)
16:03 Juerd I'm willing to do it only if other people promise to not get drunk the day before :P
16:03 rafl our $driver = Storable::dclone($Juerd);
16:03 Juerd Because with moody passengers, it's harder even to stay focussed
16:04 rafl Hm... is it enough if one of is doesn't get drunk? ;-)
16:04 Juerd webmind: Okay, here's the plan - you get your eyes cut halfway March, and your driving scrap in a few weeks from now, and you will join the geektour. How does that sound? ;)
16:05 webmind Juerd, can't
16:05 Juerd Darn
16:05 webmind I actually suspended my lessons until after the operation
16:06 Juerd Oh
16:06 Juerd Then, get your eyes cut next week, take up the lessons, get your license the first week of Feb, and join :)
16:06 webmind the current condition of my eyes wasn't really helping
16:07 webmind and that's being very positive about and our medical health care system and the burocracy of the cbr (have to get medical testing now from them)
16:07 Juerd How much will you be affected by the operation, by the way?
16:07 rafl Juerd: OK, I think I can promise not to get drunk, even if it's hard as there will be free drinks for me..
16:07 webmind I will probably able to use both my eyes at the same time on a regular basis
16:07 Juerd webmind: I meant more: hoe ingrijpend is het?
16:08 Juerd Dunno how to express ingrijpend in English :)
16:08 webmind I think I'll be able to see quite directly
16:08 webmind they'll be replacing to muscles
16:08 webmind but I'll be under a heavy narcoses
16:08 Juerd Won't your brain need time to adjust?
16:08 webmind and maybe I need to get used to the moving them around.. dunno yet
16:08 Juerd For the eye coordination...
16:08 webmind yeah
16:08 webmind maybe
16:10 webmind I'll ask this when I get the chance
16:10 webmind probably this week
16:10 webmind got some more questions anyway
16:10 Juerd Why wasn't this done before, by the way?
16:10 Juerd Didn't plan on driving? ;)
16:10 webmind only recently looked into it
16:11 webmind that too
16:11 webmind but my timing with this is horribly
16:11 Juerd Timing is always horrible when something is needed
16:13 webmind well I probably could get my licensen with my curretent eye coordination
16:13 webmind but I notice I'm mainly cheating
16:13 webmind which results in unsafe driving
16:13 webmind don't like that
16:16 webmind ofcourse if they pierce my eye while stiching the muscle back I won't be able to drive at all.. but ey :)
16:17 * Alias_ shudders
16:18 Alias_ Of course, we all have our own problems that we've gotten used to
16:18 * Alias_ still hasn't entirely come to grips with having to wear glasses
16:19 webmind uhuh
16:20 webmind I recently discovered implant lenses
16:20 webmind low risk and no trouble with replacing
16:20 webmind first going to do this though
16:20 Alias_ I need to wait until my eyes stop shifting
16:21 Alias_ Also, the rate of these eye-related inventions is improving at such a speed I'm happy to delay for a few years
16:21 webmind uhuh
16:21 Alias_ As long as I'm not playing a sport for which glasses is a problem, I'm relatively happy
16:22 Alias_ I still get a bit icky about the loss of field of vision though
16:22 Alias_ every now and then I take off my glasses and remember what it was like to have a full 160 degrees
16:22 Alias_ well, 140-160
16:23 Alias_ It adds a certainly connection to reality...
16:23 Alias_ Putting the glasses back on feels like it adds a hint of depersonalisation
16:23 Alias_ Anyways...
16:23 * Alias_ & # food
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16:26 Juerd rafl: The entire tour, beginning and ending in Dordrecht, NL, is approx 2000 km, and that'll cost only around 150 euros in LPG :)
16:27 Juerd rafl: Including car costs, this brings the trip costs up to approx 200
16:27 Juerd rafl: Divided by 4 (hoping on 3 passengers total), that gets us around for 50 euros each :)
16:28 Juerd rafl: That's dirt cheap...
16:28 Juerd Try that by train ;)
16:28 Juerd Though for you it'll be more expensive because you have to go to .be by train and to .de by train
16:30 Juerd rafl: Do you know what good options there are for sleeping in Bochum?
16:42 Alias_ Juerd: That seems unusually cheap
16:42 Alias_ Does that factor in maintenance/devaulation etc?
16:43 Alias_ Generally car costs are around 20-40euro'cents per K
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16:45 Juerd Alias_: It factors in maintenance, not devaluation.
16:45 Juerd Actual costs for my car are 21 cent per km.
16:45 Juerd Provided Dutch LPG. German LPG is more expensive, for example
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17:50 svnbot6 r8773 | audreyt++ | * Text.Parser.Kwid: Initial check in of a Haskell Kwid parser.
17:50 * Alias_ shudders
17:53 svnbot6 r8774 | audreyt++ | * Remove unused imports from Pugs.CodeGen.PIL2 and Pugs.Compile
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18:00 svnbot6 r8775 | audreyt++ | * "make haddock" now works again.
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18:03 svnbot6 r8776 | audreyt++ | * ditto for drift-derived files.
18:04 * lypanov squeaks
18:16 * chris2 hands lypanov a bonbon
18:16 * lypanov eats
18:16 * lypanov makes some coffee
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20:12 Juerd Anyone interested in Mastering Regular Expressions, 1st edition?
20:14 Alias_ sigh
20:14 Juerd ?
20:15 * Alias_ tries to think of how prove is different to make test
20:15 Alias_ I have some test scripts that WORK with prove but FAIL in make test
20:15 Juerd Environment?
20:15 Alias_ Just one very specific case, most of the rest of it all works still
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20:15 Alias_ And don't see how... I'm literally running them one after the other
20:16 Juerd Is it Perl?
20:16 Alias_ what?
20:16 Alias_ Yes
20:16 Juerd make test may be including blib/lib, while prove may not.
20:16 Alias_ prove -br
20:17 Alias_ So prove is using blib/lib too
20:17 Juerd Still, though, dump \%ENV and compare :)
20:18 Alias_ point... doing so
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20:34 Alias_ hmm... how interesting
20:34 Alias_ Juerd++ # Dunno if it will help, but it might be a start
20:36 Alias_ aha!
20:36 Alias_ Juerd++
20:36 Alias_ Juerd++
20:36 Alias_ Juerd++
20:36 Alias_ what an esoteric bug
20:37 Juerd Yay, karma :)
20:37 jabbot Juerd: :) has neutral karma
20:37 Juerd :)++
20:37 Alias_ heh
20:37 Juerd Yay, karma :)
20:37 jabbot Juerd: :) has neutral karma
20:37 Alias_ prove sets up the included directories differently to make test
20:37 Juerd jabbot++  # You're useless, but I like you anyway.
20:38 Alias_ prove's ones don't forvive run3'ing
20:38 Alias_ s/forvive/survive
20:38 theorbtwo That's probably a bug.
20:38 Alias_ I'm in RT as we speak
20:39 Alias_ wow it has a lot of bugs
20:40 Alias_ and spam apparently
20:40 Juerd Of course.
20:40 Juerd Doesn't everything that is big have lots of bugs?
20:41 Alias_ no
20:41 Juerd The more code, the more chance for error.
20:41 Alias_ Assuming constantly bad code
20:41 Juerd Not really.
20:41 * Alias_ has about 20 bugs for 107 distributions
20:41 Alias_ 15 of those are small PPI things I haven't gotten around to
20:42 Juerd But are those 107 distributions used as much as RT?
20:42 Alias_ Test::Harness has more bugs than my total number
20:42 rafl Juerd: 50 EUR sound reasonable.
20:42 rafl Juerd: I think I can organize something in Bochum.
20:42 Juerd rafl: Does that equate to 'free'? :)
20:43 Juerd rafl: BTW, in .nl, I think we can sleep in my office
20:43 Juerd rafl: It's showerless (as it's an office building), but I think we can survive that.
20:43 rafl Juerd: I also think so.
20:44 Juerd It's a 1 hr drive from my office to Amsterdam
20:44 Juerd Something I do every month anyway :)
20:44 Juerd And recently, several times per week.
20:44 Juerd I can show you feather if you want ;)
20:44 Juerd Though it's not interesting if you've been in a datacentre before
20:46 rafl Juerd: I work in a super computing centre..
20:46 Juerd Then it'd be uttely boring :)
20:46 Juerd Google for "aopen h360" and you know what feather looks like :P
20:47 Juerd http://aopen.jp/products/h​ousing/images/h360-300.jpg  # like that
20:47 Juerd Hm, no, wrong model
20:47 Alias_ hmm
20:47 Alias_ Actually, I'm not sure if make test's behaviour is correct either
20:47 Juerd http://www.i-tech.com.au/ima​ges/products/AO89001_hg.jpg  # like that
20:50 Alias_ aaaah
20:50 Alias_ Now I see...
20:50 Alias_ Because prove doesn't set PERL5LIB, it was run3'ing something that launched with the older version of the code, that didn't have the bug
20:54 Juerd It must have been a path issue.
20:54 Alias_ What was hiding it was that the old and new code was so similar
20:54 Alias_ 3 lines different, which resulting in a subtle change not fully covered in the tests that SHOULD have double checks that behaviour
20:55 Alias_ 3 element failure
20:55 Alias_ Actually, 4 element
20:55 Alias_ old and new code + prove behaviour + run3 + bad coverage
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22:25 Juerd Alias_: Nice way to spend your sunday.
22:25 Alias_ hmm? :)
22:25 Juerd Alias_: Hunting bugs in bug hunters.
22:25 Alias_ PITA is Da Big Weekend Project
22:25 Alias_ That particular problem is par for the course
22:25 Alias_ There's way bigger problems
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