Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-01-25

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:12 theorbtwo Use abnormal datastructures, innefficent as all hell, but defined and implemented without roles, in order to be able to bootstrap?
00:12 theorbtwo It's great news if piln can boot classes.
00:14 rafl integral: ping
00:17 tewk \
00:21 theorbtwo g'night.
00:22 rafl ingy: ping
00:29 tewk
00:32 putter theorbtwo: back.  g'night.  yes.  neat idea.
00:37 putter stevan: ok, top level.  can one simply do a "warm" bootstrap?  boot from piln compiled previously on a working system?  roles are compiled away by the time one gets to piln, yes?  so compile just enough to break dependency loops, or even the entire prelude.  and then either dont load the p6 "file" which was compiled
00:37 putter or do load it, and stomp on the old bindings.
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00:45 putter alternately, if one wants a cold boostrap, questions include how many hops, in which order, and how to do the binding.  if one doesnt want rebinding, one might do multiple loading of p6 code, once into a Scratch package, containing say Array built on primitives, which the roles code loads by virtue of being loaded into
00:49 putter Scratch.  this stuff is then run, creating the top level bindings.  but rebinding seems easier.  ie, build enough of Array/Whatever on top of the array/whatever backend primitives to make roles happy, at which point a normal p6-based Array/Whatever can be normally role()d into existance, overwriting the boot cruft.
00:51 tewk putter: Whats new with respect to the release, real life kicked in this past weekend.  I saw that audrey ci adverialial literals.
00:54 putter theorbtwo's thought is another way to avoid rebinding.  and... have to think about that more...
00:54 putter tewk: I'm not sure.  Let's see...
00:58 putter it looks like gaal did a linux smoke of 8776, which is just a doc file away from HEAD.  http://m19s28.vlinux.de/iblech/stuff/pugs-s​mokes/pugs-smoke-6.2.10-r8776-linux-normal-​-1138083645-4009--11385-9304-2081-1182-944-​0--ae60ec16fee26d29e4ed5abe929d14b6.html
01:01 putter yes, so  svn log -r8766:8776  shows audreyt did the adverbial numbers.  likely using bsb's refactoring (though I havent checked).
01:03 putter but that looks like the only thing fixed since your last (undef.t) commit which affects the tests/smoke.  so we are still rather broken.
01:04 tewk So my smoke isn't running as many test as others are...
01:04 tewk I also ran a smoke monday morning http://m19s28.vlinux.de/iblech/stuff/pugs-​smokes/pugs-smoke-6.2.10-r8776-darwin-norm​al--1137982070-2778--9352-8726-626-1374-88​7-0--0162d7de9dbee90dfd70376ffe53c68f.html
01:04 tewk but I only ran 9352 tests.
01:04 putter looking...
01:05 tewk ahh I don't think I was running ext tests.
01:05 tewk That got fixed also.
01:06 putter ah, ok. 511 vs 6mumble files.
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01:11 putter tewk: I'm sorry your work got preempted.  I assumed audreyt would backlog or triage and head for higher fruit.  Perhaps she wanted something bitesized.  :/
01:13 tewk I'm glad it got done, I went AWAL and I think the implementation there is better.
01:16 putter When it's happened to me, I've found it quite interesting to see how it was done.  We don't really have a mechanism/tradition of hs code review.  ie, audreyt or someone does a patch, folks look at it, ask/discuss why it was done that way, etc.
01:17 putter and there isn't much continuous refactoring effort.  so "I know this was a crufty way to do it, but I'm not sure what would be better" (or "I got tired of fighting the type system";) code stays unchanged.
01:18 tewk That was my problem, fighting the type system, I like the code that actually made it in.  I'll go take a look
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01:23 putter http://rt.openfoundry.org/Foundry/Projec​t/Source/index.html/pugs/diff/src/Pugs/P​arser/Number.hs?rev1=8722&rev2=8768
01:25 putter http://rt.openfoundry.org/Foundry/Pro​ject/Source/index.html/pugs/diff/src/​Pugs/Prim.hs?rev1=8735&rev2=8770
01:26 putter http://rt.openfoundry.org/Foundry/Proj​ect/Source/index.html/pugs/diff/src/Pu​gs/Parser.hs?rev1=8769&rev2=8770
01:31 * putter sooo wants a system for sharing annotations on files.  
01:32 putter tewk: how goes the look?
01:35 tewk Looking, everytime I think I'm getting haskell I find I still have a lot to learn :)
01:35 putter lol.  yeah.
01:37 putter my fuzzy impression is also that audreyt has a featurefull coding style.
01:40 tewk Yeah, I agree, but that is how one learns.  I do the same think in other languages and past coworkers used to hate it.
01:40 putter Eval Val?
01:41 tewk For me it is another weeder test, Does featurefull coding style intrigue you or make you angry :)
01:42 tewk ++ if it intrigues you.
01:42 putter yes.  though one has to target one's audience.  I made
01:42 putter lol :)
01:45 putter some poor design choices on project by allowing the professionalism (plus n years of C development) of the people who would maintain it overshadow their own statements that "they weren't really comfortable with pointers".  I failed to design and code appropriately, and my code was apparently tossed within a year or two.
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01:47 putter here of course, with -Ofun and people learning haskell... hmm, I wonder if more folks would have learned haskell if it were more stereotyped code... *shrug*.  but getting into the habit of chatting about it on irc seems a potential win.
01:48 putter tewk: any aspect of the patches you'd like to comment on? ;)
01:55 putter I liked bsb's refactoring.  the definition of two identically named baseDigit's (in Parser and Number) seemed unfortunate.  so it looks like the Parser code doest use Number's number.  which makes this a very nifty contrast of two different approaches to some of the same problems.
01:57 putter the Pugs::Internals:: namespace... nags at me.  the problem is, when some other backend runs the code, does it create a P::I, even though it isn't Pugs?  or is that "Pugs-compilers's-assumptions"::Internals, in which case it makes sense.
01:59 tewk Ok I think I understand Number.hs, on to Parser.hs
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02:01 * putter tries to figure out how the Parser code validates the set of letters used...
02:01 putter ?eval 3
02:02 evalbot_8764 is now known as evalbot_8777
02:02 evalbot_8777 3
02:02 putter ?eval :2<10>
02:02 evalbot_8777 2
02:02 putter ?eval :2<13>
02:03 evalbot_8777 5
02:03 putter ah.  it doesnt.
02:04 putter it seems like that should be a parse error
02:04 putter no?
02:04 tewk ?eval :kevin<10>
02:04 evalbot_8777 ("kevin" => "10")
02:04 tewk ?eval :40<10>
02:05 evalbot_8777 40
02:05 tewk ?eval :50<11>
02:05 evalbot_8777 51
02:06 tewk ?eval :70<11>
02:06 evalbot_8777 71
02:11 tewk ?eval :16<  >
02:11 evalbot_8777 0
02:12 dduncan this may be beating a dead horse, but is there any estimate for when 6.2.11 will go out?
02:12 tewk ?eval :16< . 11 >
02:12 evalbot_8777 11/16
02:13 tewk ?eval :16< . d >
02:13 evalbot_8777 0/1
02:13 dduncan if its going to be longer than 1-3 days, I think I'm going to not wait before putting the current state of Rosetta on CPAN; before I was holding it off for a week plus so they would be out concurrently
02:13 putter dduncan: is 6.2.11 the next release?
02:13 dduncan that's my understanding
02:14 dduncan 6.2.11 is essentially what we have now but with all the tests passing or skipping
02:14 dduncan and following that, there will be a big refactor so pil2 is used by default
02:14 dduncan in the 'normal' haskell runcore
02:14 dduncan resulting in 6.28.0
02:15 putter audreyt's journal suggests $job for atleast another day, plus post-deadline recovery ;), plus whatever life stuff is associated with Lunar New Years.  sounds like very late Jan or early Feb.
02:15 dduncan if that's true, then I think I won't wait
02:16 putter putter is extrapolating the recover and life-stuff, >2 days seems certain, >3 most likely.
02:16 putter s/stuff,/stuff, but/
02:18 putter ?eval :8<0.1>
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02:19 evalbot_8777 1/8
02:19 putter ?eval :16<0.1>
02:19 Cryptic_K joined perl6
02:19 evalbot_8777 1/16
02:20 putter ?eval :16<0.2>
02:20 evalbot_8777 1/8
02:20 putter ?eval :16<0.a>
02:20 evalbot_8777 5/8
02:21 putter ?eval :16<0.d>
02:21 evalbot_8777 13/16
02:22 putter ?eval :16<.d>
02:22 evalbot_8777 13/16
02:22 putter ?eval :16<. d>
02:22 evalbot_8777 0/1
02:22 putter ?eval :16< .d>
02:23 evalbot_8777 13/16
02:23 putter numbers.t needs many more test cases apparently.
02:27 putter dduncan: I wonder if there is anything we can collectively do to clarify scheduling, without impacting -Ofun?  or increasing -Ofun! ;)  time estimation being potentially great fun. ;)
02:27 dduncan does this mean you want to start a betting pool?
02:28 putter tewk: thanks for motivating this code review thing.  I enjoyed, learned more hs, ... :)
02:28 putter dduncan: ha! :)  there's an idea.
02:29 dduncan okay, I bet that 6.2.11 will go out in exactly 7 days
02:29 * putter checks calendar..
02:29 dduncan or in the 7-10 day range
02:32 putter oh, foo.  the -10 does take a bite out.
02:34 putter ok, I'll do 6 days (Tues GMT I think).
02:35 putter 6.28.0 in late-Feb to early-March, depending on audreyt's schedule.
02:36 putter ;)
02:37 putter I bet one as yet unripe plantain, suitable for hanging low.
02:37 putter codereview++
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02:39 putter hey stevan.  I'm just about to head out to dinner.  some thoughts above.
02:44 stevan_ hey putter
02:44 stevan_ yes, just backlogged
02:45 stevan_ theorbtwo: classes have been booting in PILN for a while now
02:45 stevan_ not into Perl 6 yet, but the model is bootstrapped
02:46 putter hi, thoughts?
02:49 * stevan_ has to take out the dog,.. brb
02:49 stevan_ then thoughts :)
02:49 stevan_ putter: you can go grab food and backlog if you like
02:51 putter ok, I'm off.  will backlog.  cheers &
02:55 dduncan putter, you can do an overlapping range with mine, it just can't be exactly the same ...
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02:56 dduncan if the actual date is in the overlap, then whoever's range is more constrained and/or has the actual date more centrally placed wins
02:57 dduncan putter must be using the web log, since he logged out, for his backlog
02:59 stevan_ dduncan: yes, probably
03:02 stevan_ putter: the metamodel is built in such a way that if we want to replace/rebind methods to any of the classes we can do so
03:05 stevan_ in fact, we can even rebind the classes too if needed
03:05 stevan_ I see no reason why we couldnt
03:06 stevan_ but ideally we dont do that
03:06 stevan_ instead we use roles to accomplish the same thing
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03:06 stevan_ so the idea would be that once the metamodel is bootstrapped,.. the role model bootstrapped atop it,... then container types built
03:07 stevan_ we are ready for Perl 6
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03:35 stevan_ putter: but if say, a method, would be better written in Perl 6,.. then we can simply overwrite it using the metamodel featrues
03:36 stevan_ ^Package.add_method('name', method { ... })
03:36 stevan_ (add_method will replace a method of the same name)
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03:37 stevan_ putter: there is also some autoboxing/hand-waving/magic which will probably happen in the PIL2 to PILN compilation process
03:38 stevan_ but this is all in the codegen,.. which is audreyt's thing and out of my scope
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03:39 stevan_ good morning _meppl
03:40 _meppl is now known as meppl
03:47 stevan_ putter: looking at it from another point of view,.. if we write only as much of ^Array as we need to bootstrap, and no more,.. then once we are "in" Perl 6,.. we can fill in the missing methods
03:47 stevan_ again,.. with the metamodel
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04:29 putter dduncan: re overlap, ah, ok.  though shame on me for doing an estimate without confidence bounds, justifications, and risk analysis.
04:29 dduncan this is only for fun anyway
04:29 putter dduncan: re log, yes.  http://colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6  came in handy for doing some year-of-pugs quantitative exploration.
04:30 putter dduncan: some things are funnest done well... ;)  others not of course...
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04:31 putter stevan:  ^Package is... p6?  "^"?
04:33 putter stevan: what is the relationship between C::m := method {}  and C.add_method('m',method{}) ?
04:36 putter re mm, then roles, then containers:  but we need at least some of containers to implement roles, no?  I thought that's where we started tonight...?  perhaps you mean mm, just-enough-containers-for-roles, roles, containers-for-real?
04:38 putter re writing just enough of ^Array, I note that even if the "format on disk and in tar ball" is .piln, we might still write it in p6, compile it, and save the .piln output.
04:40 putter one random thought - a difficulty with minimum-containers, and roles targeted at a them, is it sets up a tension in the role implementation.  between easy boostrap, and performance.  hmm.  and at this stage of development, that sentence reads "easy bootstrap, and <intentionally left blank>".  so never mind.
04:41 putter ok, so it looks like we're thinking along similar lines.
04:42 putter oh, did you have any thoughts on avoiding the whole "build up from scratch code" approach by simply "compile a blob of p6 to a piln file and add the file to the distribution"?
04:43 putter s/scratch code/scratch cold/
04:44 putter so one piece these approaches have all had in common has been a p6 roles implementation of some sort.  do we have one of them?
04:50 stevan_ putter: I am answering as I backlog :)
04:51 putter :)
04:51 stevan_ putter: "^" is the new class sigil
04:51 stevan_ C::m := method {} is a package assignment
04:51 stevan_ basically it desugars into C::FETCH('m', method {})
04:52 stevan_ and FETCH in ^Class is defined to use add_method if it gets a method
04:52 stevan_ re: we need enough containers to do roles
04:53 stevan_ I think we might be able to get away with not using containers
04:53 putter s/FETCH/STORE/ ?
04:53 stevan_ sorry,.. yes
04:53 putter k
04:53 stevan_ the thing with roles for me right now is having the time to sit down and see what is the best algorithm/approach for calculating conflicts
04:54 stevan_ and for pushing them up and down the role heirarchy so that they get properly managed
04:54 putter ah
04:55 stevan_ re: the compile it, save the piln output and put it in the distro
04:55 stevan_ we can do that if it ends up making sens
04:55 stevan_ e
04:55 stevan_ we have to see the code gen
04:55 stevan_ is now known as stevan
04:56 stevan I know with, for instance, Ada, the assembler emitted by the compiler tends to be much more efficient than hand optimized assembler
04:56 stevan audreyts PIL2->PILN compiler might do that too
04:57 stevan re: difficulty with min-containers --- I agree,.. this approach could get messy
04:57 stevan again,.. if the codegened piln is better than hand written,.. then maybe not
04:59 putter so next steps are "pondering conflicts" and ...  waiting for p6->pil2->piln? :-/
05:00 stevan putter: yes, for the most part
05:00 putter ok
05:01 stevan one good short-term project would be to spec out roles more
05:01 putter can you see any advantage to doing multiple piln backends simultaneously?
05:01 putter re roles spec, right
05:02 stevan putter: multiple piln backends? as in new metamodel?
05:02 putter or rather, I thought they were straightforward and already specced... and of course I know that's not true.  right
05:02 stevan or a C implementation
05:03 stevan of the piln runtime
05:03 putter hmm, C...  I had been thinking more along the lines of ocaml or js, but yes.  piln runtime
05:03 stevan ah
05:03 stevan yes, there is much use in that
05:04 putter just so any "in language of flavor X you really want Z" issues turn up quickly
05:04 stevan yes
05:05 stevan a Perl 5 PILN runtime would be very cool IMO
05:05 stevan but JS works too
05:05 stevan ocaml if you want
05:05 stevan scheme, brainf*ck, anything really :)
05:06 stevan re: roles,.. the spec for roles is pretty much still in the hand-waving stage,.. although they are not as bad as they used to be
05:07 stevan however, I think they are simple enough,.. its just a matter of working out the edge cases
05:07 stevan because they are an integral part of the language,.. we have to cover all the ugly dark coners they might enter into
05:09 stevan and if they are not predictable, they are not useable, and if they are not useable, then ... well,.. then it sucks
05:10 putter my impression is audreyt is thinking in terms of an XS piln runtime.  but doing a pure p5 one too would make sense I guess.   but...
05:10 putter I don't really have a good idea how much work a backend in any language will entail.  and once we have a semi-functioning p6->piln path, the critical path will likely be prelude stuff, and pil2/piln manipulation in hs and perhaps p6, and all the many things which would be neat to do but have been blocked on oo not really working.
05:10 putter hmm...
05:10 putter do have a feel for how stable or not the concept/design/spec/implementation of piln is?
05:10 putter moving target or so boiled down it's like taffy?
05:10 putter ;)
05:11 stevan putter: I think the piln "thing" is pretty solid at this point
05:11 stevan any changes will be minimal at this point
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05:13 stevan of course that is conditional on audreyt not having any epiphanies
05:13 putter so solid one could write a piln backend now?  or not quite?
05:14 putter epiphanies++
05:14 stevan well the language is solid enough,..
05:14 stevan yes
05:14 stevan the implementation might get refactored
05:15 putter I've mentioned the "guy who designed make realized semantic tabs were a bad idea... but by then he had order 10 users he didn't want to subject to an incompatible change" story?  ;)
05:15 putter ok
05:16 stevan I am pretty much the only PILN user right now :)
05:17 putter so nail down spec, ponder architecture/design, and perhaps play with backends.  anything else doable?
05:17 putter :)
05:17 stevan I htink the playing with backend part is the best path
05:18 stevan it might help uncover issues with PILN or even open up possibilities we didnt see/think-of in the HS version
05:18 putter ah, good poing
05:18 putter err, point even
05:19 stevan and VMs are fun little projects too :)
05:19 * putter thinks a very silly thought...
05:19 putter have you seen...
05:19 stevan Neko?
05:19 stevan Parrot?
05:20 putter http://merd.sourceforge.net/pixel/langu​age-study/syntax-across-languages.html  
05:20 putter lol
05:20 stevan porting the metamodel to PIR is another tedious task which needs a sucker ... uhm I mean volunteer
05:21 putter lol, choking, coughing, ouch ;)
05:22 stevan :)
05:23 putter I'm afraid someone else will get to have the joy of doing pir.  not I.
05:24 * stevan is hoping on a PILN -> PIR codegen :)
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05:26 putter anyway, the thing with s-a-l... the silly thought that is... a while back, I did a variant that could actually gen code in a few languages - build semantic net, select language, shake, emacs buffer's change name, language, distribution files, etc.  silly idea is why do just 2 or 3 piln backends, when... ah well.  maybe when
05:26 putter things settle down and some frontends are cooking along.
05:27 putter stevan: half past midnight
05:27 * stevan wonders what it is that putter is eating,.. and if maybe there was some hallucinagenic mold growing on it he didnt notice
05:31 putter ha.  there's an explanation for the strange looking p6 camel.  which ran around thinking "I'm eager!  I'm lazy!  I'm static!  I'm dynamic!  I'm classy!  I'm prototypical!  I'm functional!  I mutate! ...  I'm one confused camel... but I think I like it, and I'm meeting all sorts of interesting people." :)
05:31 stevan LOL
05:32 stevan ok, time for bed
05:32 putter yeah.
05:33 putter good night stevan.  good conversation.  thanks.
05:33 stevan I am glad we are finally getting back into balance :)
05:33 stevan have a good night putter
05:33 * stevan &
05:33 putter &
05:34 putter good night all &
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09:54 nothingmuch http://labs.google.com/papers/ma​preduce-osdi04-slides/index.html
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10:19 ingy rafl: pong
10:35 * lypanov wonders where the smoke tests are
10:54 theorbtwo Morning, people.
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11:56 ingy seen audreyt
11:56 jabbot ingy: audreyt was seen 2 days 2 hours 18 minutes 6 seconds ago
11:56 ingy &
11:56 nothingmuch ingy: just curious, are you getting poiunded by the new YAML stuff?
11:56 nothingmuch many people are complaining on borkedness
11:56 nothingmuch and I'm not sure they are communicating this properly
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12:32 rafl ingy: Why does Test::Base depend on Test::More 0.62?
12:32 rafl ingy: I can only find that in META.yml and Makefile.PL
12:33 rafl ingy: But you don't have a use statement that also uses this Version or some docs that explain why I need a newer Test::More.
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13:24 \xe6var mm
13:24 \xe6var I'm not sure I understand the whole bless() in perl6 discussion
13:24 * integral doesn't understand most of perl6-l stuff
13:28 \xe6var I'd hate to see it in p6 just as some backwards compatability hack
13:29 nothingmuch rafl: maybe http://search.cpan.org/src/MSC​HWERN/Test-Simple-0.62/Changes has clues
13:30 nothingmuch obra: aaah! rt not sending notifications again
13:31 nothingmuch http://rt.cpan.org/Dist/Display.html?Status=Ac​tive&amp;Queue=Catalyst-Plugin-Session-PerUser
13:31 nothingmuch http://rt.cpan.org/Dist/Display.html​?Status=Active&amp;Queue=Catalyst-Pl​ugin-Authentication-Store-Htpasswd
13:31 nothingmuch http://rt.cpan.org/Dist/Display.ht​ml?Status=Active&amp;Queue=Catalys​t-Plugin-Authentication-Store-DBIC
13:31 obra nothingmuch: please report it via the address listed on rt.cpan.
13:32 obra IRC isn't the right way to report bugs. And I'm not the person who deals with them. I just deal with kicking that person if they don't
13:33 nothingmuch done
13:33 nothingmuch i thought you were rt.cpan.org's boss
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13:51 nothingmuch obra: in the update bug form
13:52 nothingmuch perhaps there's a way to get HTML make the "default" form submit button different
13:52 nothingmuch when you hit return it chooses to add more files, instead of update
13:52 obra nothingmuch: that's a browser issue
13:52 nothingmuch figured as much
13:52 obra browsers do idiotic things when you hit return
13:54 nothingmuch http://www.devx.com/vb2themax/Tip/18846
13:54 nothingmuch hah
13:56 * nothingmuch would really expect there to be a default="1" attr of some sort
13:57 nothingmuch obra: also, very nice redesign, if it's yours
13:58 obra it's mostly the same guy who did the cpan migration :)
13:59 nothingmuch the cpan migration?
13:59 obra rt.cpan.org
13:59 nothingmuch err, yes, but what migration?
13:59 nothingmuch like, of the dists => queues?
14:00 obra from RT2 to RT 3.5
14:03 iblechbot joined perl6
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14:08 nothingmuch oh, i see
14:09 nothingmuch who is that guy? Ask?
14:11 nothingmuch bsb: oh, you're the CGI::Expand guy
14:11 nothingmuch heh
14:12 nothingmuch and here I was corresponding via mail/etc when I could have just bugged you here
14:19 obra no, not ask. Tom Sibley. one of our interns.
14:21 bsb nothingmuch: that's me
14:22 bsb bug me however you like :)
14:23 nothingmuch huh, wrong channel though
14:23 nothingmuch =)
14:23 nothingmuch anyway, coolness
14:23 nothingmuch obra: ah
14:23 nothingmuch obra: tell him ++ if you remember =)
14:23 * nothingmuch goes home
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21:01 Juerd "Much discussion ensued."
21:02 Juerd That's not a summary
21:05 \xe6var sure is
21:05 \xe6var "This week in perl 6"
21:05 \xe6var "There was many a posting on the list"
21:05 \xe6var "Much discussion ensued"
21:06 \xe6var "Replies were made"
21:06 \xe6var "Counter..."
21:16 robkinyon Anyone else feel that there isn't enough distinction between P6C and P6L in the summaries?
21:19 metaperl I think I would prefer a + or _ for string concatenation...
21:19 metaperl s/or/over/
21:20 metaperl s/\bor\b/over/; # :)
21:20 stevan metaperl: making + polymorphic would be very easy in p6
21:21 stevan multi sub infix:<+> (Str $left, Str $right) { $left ~ $right }
21:21 metaperl underscore is not the p6 concat operator? tilde is?
21:21 stevan yes
21:22 metaperl oh someone told me that was why tt used "_" for string concat
21:22 stevan last I checked that is :)
21:23 kolibrie once upon a time, '_' was the planned perl6 string concat character
21:23 kolibrie thus TT decided to use it, and then the perl6 spec changed
21:24 stevan _ is a really bad idea IMO
21:24 stevan $this_$that
21:24 stevan yuk
21:24 robkinyon + is also a bad idea
21:24 robkinyon + is commutative in almost all the mathematical uses
21:24 metaperl stevan: are you getting into Catalyst? it's pretty sweet
21:24 robkinyon plus, what does "foo" + 3 mean? Should it be the same as 3 + "foo"? Isn't this one reason why JS isn't the best language?
21:25 metaperl robkinyon: how about borrow from Haskell and make it ++
21:25 robkinyon uh-huh. :-)
21:25 metaperl we have xx and ?? :: ... so why not ++
21:25 stevan metaperl: we are planning on using it in our newest project
21:25 metaperl :)
21:25 robkinyon Why does there have to be an operator? What's wrong with str1.concat( str2 )?
21:25 robkinyon or str3 = concat( str1, str2 )
21:25 metaperl cool, what for dynamic HTML?
21:25 * stevan really regrets introducing robkinyon to Ruby sometimes :P
21:26 robkinyon LOL
21:26 * robkinyon & # Time to become a chauffeur
21:26 stevan metaperl: yeah, a data capturing app basically,.. kind of a web-wizard thing
21:26 stevan metaperl: we are thinking of using Rose::DB::Object for our ORM
21:28 metaperl stevan: I like DBIx::Simple overall... Rose takes a lot of work to get setup... the author hangs out on #dbix-class
21:28 stevan metaperl: I didnt actually choose it, robkinyon did (he is my cow-orker)
21:30 * stevan curses freenods registration policy
21:32 vel joined perl6
21:36 theorbtwo You know, not being able to send messages /from/ an unregistered account would make sense.  Not being able to send /to/ just means you have to spam a channel with personal messages to register already.
21:37 * stevan forgot his password, so I am currently "unregistered"
21:37 vel joined perl6
21:42 kolibrie stevan: at least you didn't set it up to disconnect unregistered users using your nick
21:44 vel joined perl6
21:47 stevan kolibrie: true :)
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22:14 putter joined perl6
22:14 putter Ok, a couple of thoughts:
22:17 putter The other day I was feeling grateful for all the nice infrastructure we have which makes things soo much easier.  frenode for irc, openfoundry for vcs, iblech's smokeserver, etc.
22:21 putter One thing we've talked about but not done, and some other projects have, is a server which records, on a revision by revision basis, what tests are failing.  So you can tell for instance, which mod broke something.
22:21 putter Yesterday a little "code review" exercise with tewk pushed home the concept that it's much easier to understand/debug haskell (or anything else I suppose) when you only have to look out from a few lines.
22:23 putter So... are we being incredibly lazy here?  Might some or all of the current test fails be accessible if the code which caused the problem were before us?
22:24 putter And worse case senario, couldn't we have figured out when things failed with hand builds and reading the log?
22:26 putter Having someone as exceptional as audreyt working with us is indescribably awesome.  And I wish we had more of her.  And often it will take a day of effort to fix something audreyt could fix in a few minutes.
22:27 putter But shouldn't we be putting in a little more effort here?  If only for the practice and the learning opportunity?
22:27 PerlJam putter: some people can juggle more balls than other people.  Some people can context switch faster than others too.
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22:32 p5evalbot joined perl6
22:32 putter Certainly resources and capabilities are constrained as always.  And "wait for audreyt to fix it" is certainly a viable strategy.  But... that doesn't mean we have to be dumb about it.  We don't even have a file to keep notes on our collective efforts to debug the build.  What would your reaction to a "real" project be if someone
22:33 putter asked "how do you deal with your release bottleneck bugs" said "well, each of our developers takes a poke at them, and if nothing gets fixed, our best most overcommitted developer eventually comes by and fixes them, though sometimes that means we have to push back the release for a week or two."  Eeep.
22:33 putter Ok, flame off.  ;)
22:34 p5evalbot joined perl6
22:35 * putter goes back to building a "kennel" of pugsen.  big open disk partition, lots of spare computes, ulimit... a pile of dogs.
22:37 p5evalbot joined perl6
22:39 integral a
22:40 integral putter++
22:40 integral I looked at why ext/Cipher had TODO tests yesterday,  where should I record a note saying that the reason is that method dispatch is borked in the default evaluator?
22:41 putter hmm...
22:42 lypanov__ is now known as lypanov
22:43 putter if were something that was blown away before release, I might suggest something like t/RELEASE_DEBUGGING_NOTES ;) as hard to miss.  But some tests are always :todo()ed, so notes on them will still be needed...
22:43 theorbtwo integral: There should be a note with what else tests that bug.
22:44 integral theorbtwo: what do you mean?  You mean next to the TODO'd line in ext/Cipher/t/foobar.t?
22:44 integral I don't actually know what else tests the bug.   How do I find out when we've got so many tests?
22:44 integral actually more to the point there is a comment there but it's wrong.
22:45 theorbtwo Well, certianly fix that.
22:45 drbean joined perl6
22:45 putter we could start with a t/RELEASE_DEBUGGING_NOTES and later stash anything which seems worth preserving when we blow it away for release?
22:45 theorbtwo I wouldn't worry about making a redundant test, if you know how to structure it.
22:46 putter or ./PREPARATION_FOR_RELEASE
22:46 putter ?
22:46 integral hmm, maybe I should just keep my own journal a bit more rigously so I can just check things myself after the release
22:47 putter a kwiki page?
22:47 integral ah ha!  good idea
22:48 putter :)
22:49 lypanov left perl6
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22:50 lypanov__ is now known as lypanov
22:52 svnbot6 r8779 | bsmith++ | * ext/Cipher: Changed the comment about why arcfour's tests are being skipped
22:52 svnbot6 r8779 | bsmith++ |   to reflect the fact that it's a pugs error that is causing the problem.
22:53 putter Oh, anyone who wants to add a couple of tests to numbers.t, this
22:54 putter ?eval :2<109>
22:54 evalbot_8777 is now known as evalbot_8778
22:54 evalbot_8778 13
22:54 putter is a no-no.
22:54 integral o_O
22:55 lypanov joined perl6
22:56 putter "pugs... we have builtin primitives for modular arithmatic Z_n"   ;)
22:56 integral *cough* well that's just demonstrated that my prose ability on wikis isn't good ;)
22:57 putter not really.  but we need a failing error case.  also for bogus whitespace
22:57 putter :)
22:57 putter ?eval :2< .11>
22:57 evalbot_8778 is now known as evalbot_8779
22:57 evalbot_8779 3/4
22:57 integral I thought :<> was for creating pairs, not numbers
22:58 putter I can't keep track of it all.  Today, at least, :
22:58 putter its numbers.  @Larry[0] added the tests himself. :)
22:59 integral *reads p6l* wtf?  larry's grabbed &ff as a standard operator?!
22:59 * putter tries to remember an example of seemingly bogus whitespace...  checks irc logs for yesterday...  then will look at wiki...
23:01 putter ah,
23:01 putter ?eval :16<. d>
23:01 putter tewk++ for finding
23:02 eric256_ joined perl6
23:03 putter any volunteers to add at least the two tests?
23:03 eric256_ left perl6
23:04 bsb Should :16<. d> be failing?
23:05 putter integral++: stream of consciousness. :)  it's a style.
23:06 putter hey, evalbot never replied...?
23:06 putter ?eval :16<. d>
23:06 * integral has made a private note too so there'll be no excuse to not have Cipher working one day
23:06 evalbot_8779 0/1
23:07 putter that seems not quite the right thing.  I'm not sure if failure, or a different answer, is spec...
23:07 putter checking...
23:10 putter S02 doesnt really say,
23:10 putter for the (unimplemented) :2($x) form, permitting space seems plausible.
23:12 dduncan joined perl6
23:12 putter wait.  just because it's in a different base doesnt mean you can suddently have space between decimal and digit.  so yes, I suggest it goes boom.
23:13 putter bsb: sound plausible?
23:13 integral oh, wow, only one other commit since I made one last night :-/  that's the slowest I've seen
23:13 putter twiki page: http://pugs.kwiki.org/?TodoTestsToBeRechecked  integral++
23:14 integral a
23:14 integral bleh, I keep mistyping
23:15 putter "high momentum" does not really describe our current state.  :/
23:15 lypanov_ joined perl6
23:16 putter maybe we need a TODO/TASK list if only for the benefit of having things to polish off at a time like this?
23:18 bsb putter: you're right.
23:19 bsb I was looking at the :n<> literal forms but the :n() function scared me off
23:22 putter (lisp folks are just going to loooovvveee p6;)  "Perl 6 - now with syntax which can scare even p5 programmers"
23:22 bsb I'm easily spooked
23:23 bsb I was more scared of the Haskell
23:23 bsb I wanted a nice little task in the corner of pugs but the function form seems more entangled
23:24 putter yes.  liked your number refactor though.
23:25 bsb Regarding your PREPARATION_FOR_RELEASE rant, I agree
23:25 bsb It would be good to know where to find some bite sized bugs
23:26 bsb (I must also say I lost track of the implementation a while ago and am still catching up)
23:31 putter do we still have a STATUS doc?
23:31 bsb Beats me
23:32 bsb I only started playing with the number thing after seeing your comments here
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23:37 putter Is this the current version of  $CALLER::_ ?   It's the cause of the subroutine.t failure.  was working in r8700.  There has been a language change since then perhaps?  Which wasnt reflected in subroutine.t?
23:38 putter http://pugs.kwiki.org/?TodoTestsToBeRechecked
23:38 putter re STATUS
23:39 putter ./STATUS  looks out of date... should be variously dusted, ideally before release...
23:41 putter added note re STATUS to http://pugs.kwiki.org/?TodoTestsToBeRechecked
23:41 putter integral: sorry if my use of the page isnt quite what you intended... ;)
23:44 putter ok, maybe first byte-sized bug goes in a new ./TASKS file.  we've been mumbling about creating one for months... ;)
23:55 svnbot6 r8780 | putter++ | Creation of a ./TASKS file.  bsb++
23:56 putter bsb: ping?
23:57 bsb yeah, was just svk pulling
23:57 bsb Looks good
23:57 putter so, $CALLER::_ is busted in subroutine.t, but was working in r8700.  svn log -r8700:HEAD > deleteme shows
23:59 lisppaste3 putter pasted "recent svn log entries mentioning CALLER" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/16037

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