Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-01-27

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo | Niecza | Specs

| Channels | #perl6 index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary

All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:15 dduncan my smoke of r8786 on haskell runcore plus darwin (10.4.4) is done
00:18 Juerd "Usually ships: some day"
00:18 Juerd I hope they mean "same day"
00:28 Alias_ joined perl6
00:28 Alias_ seen audreyt
00:28 jabbot Alias_: audreyt was seen 9 hours 28 minutes 48 seconds ago
00:28 Alias_ darn
00:29 * Alias_ looks at watch, should be any time now
00:32 putter lol
00:46 bogey_lj joined perl6
00:47 bogey_lj anyone who can answer some perl questions for me?
00:50 Khisanth joined perl6
00:51 Alias_ maybe
00:51 Alias_ purl, ask to ask?
00:51 * Alias_ blinks
00:51 bogey_lj :)
00:51 Alias_ purl?
00:51 bogey_lj perl
00:51 Alias_ crap, wrong channel
00:51 bogey_lj says perl6
00:52 Alias_ And here am I thinking it's perl5
00:52 bogey_lj :)
00:52 bogey_lj hmmm
00:52 Alias_ on a different network
00:52 bogey_lj ah
00:52 vike joined perl6
00:52 Alias_ with purl the bot
00:52 bogey_lj so no one in here knows perl
00:52 rhesa sure we do :)
00:53 bogey_lj oh
00:53 bogey_lj :P
00:53 bogey_lj I am having some ODBC connection issues
00:53 Alias_ Perl 6 ODBC support is available already?
00:54 rhesa are you using perl6?
00:54 bogey_lj I think at work they actually have 5.8 activestate
00:54 Alias_ So you are asking about Perl 5 in the Perl 6 channel?
00:54 bogey_lj possibly
00:54 qmole 5.8 is kinda close to 6
00:54 bogey_lj I am asking about win32::ODBC, regardless of which perl version
00:55 Alias_ bogey_lj: OK, just so you know, Perl 5 is as close to Perl 6 as JavaScript is to Java
00:55 bogey_lj k
00:55 bogey_lj active state even
00:55 bogey_lj ?
00:55 Juerd "Unfortunately, your mailer does not support HTML mail."
00:55 Alias_ So a MUCH better and explicitly help channel would be just plain #perl
00:55 Juerd What do they mean by "unfortunately"?
00:56 bogey_lj fair enough
00:56 bogey_lj if anyone would be interested in helping me with some perl issues because the know perl, please message me,  thank you
00:56 bogey_lj *they
00:56 Juerd bogey_lj: Join the #perl channel
00:56 putter bogey_lj: irc.perl.org #perl   details here http://www.irc.perl.org/
00:56 rhesa Juerd: "unfortunately, perl5 does not support continuations"
00:57 bogey_lj I am in there...they are talking about religion
00:57 bogey_lj no one answered :)
00:57 Juerd bogey_lj: There are people who want to help you in that channel. Nobody wants to help you with Perl 5 questions in a Perl 6 channel. Or well, they shouldn't want to.
00:57 Juerd bogey_lj: Then wait a while and ask again.
00:57 theorbtwo bogey_lj: Try the chatterbox on perlmonks.org.
00:57 Alias_ Just like nobody would want to help with JavaScript questions in a Java channel :)
00:57 bogey_lj k, thx theorbtwo
00:57 Juerd rhesa: Well, that I can understand. But what is so unfortunate about not supporting HTML?
00:58 Alias_ Juerd: No pictures embedded ?
00:58 bogey_lj some programmers just like solve problems, I would help in a pm
00:58 putter bogey_lj: the freenode #perl channel is not what you are looking for.  try irc.perl.org
00:58 Alias_ You MISSED OUT!
00:58 bogey_lj thx, though everyone
00:58 Juerd Alias_: I consider that quite fortunate
00:58 Alias_ putter: Oh yes it is
00:58 Alias_ putter: He doesn't want to wander into irc.perl.org #perl
00:58 Alias_ He'll be slaughtered
00:58 Juerd putter: Are you actually suggesting someone to ask a Win32 question on Magnet #perl?
00:58 Alias_ And they'll send him to Freenode #perl :)
00:59 rhesa Juerd: fwiw, i understand what you mean
00:59 * putter is reminded that perl has a rather disfunctional community in some ways
00:59 bogey_lj I sure do want irc.perl.org
00:59 rhesa would #perl-help be better?
00:59 Juerd putter: What has bogey_lj done to you to deserve this? :P
00:59 Alias_ Juerd: I think the CamelPack and Vanilla Perl conversations have been the only Win32 Perl stuff in the last 3 years :)
00:59 bogey_lj :D
00:59 bogey_lj Iwhere is #perl-help
00:59 Juerd putter: It's functional, just not newbie friendly in all areas.
01:00 rhesa on irc.perl.org
01:00 bogey_lj k, txh
01:00 Juerd bogey_lj: Also consider efnet #perlhelp
01:00 rhesa so many places to get blasted
01:00 Juerd putter: Perl's community is old enough to have a separatist/elitist subculture.
01:01 Alias_ putter: Another way of saying it would be to have a community of module and book authors who spent the FIRST 10 years of Perl answering newbie questions and helping, and have burnt out and try to just yack and co-ordinate module development
01:01 Juerd putter: People who were once very friendly to beginners, and have helped hundreds of people, and just can't cope with doing that same thing any more much longer.
01:02 Juerd putter: And yes, there are also newcomers who like to join them because they're nice company sometimes.
01:02 Alias_ For example, this week in #perl we've helped one person with a problem, and released two new distributions of Perl for Win32 :)
01:02 Juerd putter: Those shouldn't be blamed. Many of them are *also* in the helpful channels.
01:02 putter txt for resp's.  sorry, call
01:03 Alias_ The only questions welcome on #perl are those so fiendishly weird they are actually interesting :)
01:04 Juerd I myself have spent quite a lot of time helping people, but didn't manage to keep on doing that for very long. I have great respect for the people who have helped people much more than I have, even if they decide to no longer wish to be so forthcoming.
01:04 Juerd It is somewhat unfortunate that they are in channels called #perl.
01:05 Alias_ indeed
01:05 Juerd But that may be very hard to change.
01:05 Alias_ Personally, I prefer to help lots of people all at once by writing modules, rather than helping one at a time
01:05 Juerd I really like helping people individually.
01:05 Alias_ I gets hard after the first hundred times
01:06 Juerd The direct communication gives a nice satisfactory feeling afterwards, when the person is clueful and is actually helped.
01:06 Juerd However, after a thousand times, it gets tedious :)
01:06 Alias_ That said, after the first hundred CPAN modules it can get a little tedious too
01:06 Alias_ :)
01:06 theorbtwo I can hardly claim a thousand times... but yes, it does.
01:06 Juerd I can imagine.
01:07 Cryptic_K left perl6
01:07 theorbtwo When you start thinking to yourself "didn't I just answer that question", and it takes you a while to realize that it was somebody else, they don't talk to each-other... that's when you start to have issues.
01:07 Alias_ theorbtwo: Which is what's nice about the logbot
01:08 Alias_ purl, seen obra?
01:08 jabbot Alias_: obra was seen 5 hours 43 minutes 4 seconds ago
01:09 * theorbtwo wonders if hanging out on freenode #perl can help invograte him.
01:09 Juerd theorbtwo: I can claim that, and I have positive memories of the time when I spent most of my time helping people.
01:09 Juerd I wish repetition wasn't so boring.
01:09 Juerd (I'm heavily lagged, by the way)
01:09 Juerd </lag>
01:09 Juerd What is invograte?
01:09 Alias_ invigorate
01:09 Juerd Okay. What is invigorate? :)
01:09 Alias_ invigourate actually
01:09 Alias_ from "vigour"
01:09 Juerd As you wish - What is invigourate? ;)
01:09 * theorbtwo can't spell none too good.
01:09 Alias_ To replenish one's enthusiasm
01:10 theorbtwo Recharge.
01:10 Juerd (...! What's replenish?)
01:10 Juerd Ah, recharge I do know :)
01:10 Alias_ Juerd: To hunt for the koolaid
01:10 Alias_ which is stupid that you will know :)
01:11 Juerd My problem with channels like freenode #perl is that they're TOO busy at times, and that they have too many newbies helping newbies
01:11 kanru joined perl6
01:11 Juerd Alias_: Eh, that doesn't parse. Is it slang?
01:12 Alias_ I would have thought you would have encountered "Koolaid" before?
01:12 Juerd (Okay, get back to the regular technical or 6th grade (pick one) English, please)
01:12 theorbtwo To drink the koolaid is to trust your own marketing too much.
01:12 Juerd Alias_: Never
01:12 Alias_ "To drink the koolaid" is very common techie slang for believing in your own marketing
01:12 Juerd Hmm
01:12 Alias_ "To drink the Ruby Koolaid" etc
01:12 Alias_ No idea where it comes from specifically
01:13 theorbtwo The term comes from a cult where everybody drank poisoned koolaid, beleving that their souls would be picked up by an alien ship.
01:13 stevan the electric koolaid acid tests
01:13 Alias_ ah
01:13 Juerd I'm in quite a lot of techie scenes and don't recall ever having seen it.
01:13 stevan theorbtwo: its older than that
01:13 theorbtwo Really, stevan?
01:13 Alias_ wikipedia to the rescue!
01:14 stevan I think it has to do with Ken Kesey and his Electric KoolAid Acid Test,.. where they drove a bus around in the 60s giving people LSD
01:14 stevan theorbtwo: well the cult you are talking about was in the mid-90s,.. I think I have heard the term prior to that
01:14 stevan but I wasnt in the techie community back then, so I might be wrong
01:14 stevan Alias_: so... what does it say?
01:15 stevan dont keep us in suspense man
01:15 theorbtwo stevan: I got my cults confused; the one in question is from 1978 (and actually drunk flavor-aid, a knock-off).
01:15 Alias_ One lasting legacy of the Jonestown tragedy is the saying, “Don’t drink the Kool-Aid.” This has come to mean, "Don’t trust any group you find to be a little on the kooky side" or "Whatever they tell you, don't believe it too strongly".
01:15 Juerd Let's have a holy war. I miss those.
01:15 stevan theorbtwo: ah yes,.. Jonestown
01:15 * stevan decides to invade .nl in search of the P6 holy grail
01:15 Alias_ The phrase can also be used in the opposite sense to indicate that one has blindly embraced a particular philosophy or perspective (a "Kool-Aid drinker")
01:15 Alias_ Hence, "drinking the Ruby Koolaid"
01:15 Alias_ :)
01:16 stevan theorbtwo: you were right :)
01:16 Juerd stevan: Eh, I was more referring to technical holy wars, i.e. $product1 versus $product2
01:16 Alias_ Juerd: Where's purl when we need her
01:16 stevan Juerd: my p6 holy grail is better than your p6 holy grail then
01:16 Alias_ jabbot: start a holy war!
01:16 jabbot Alias_: Earlier you said your p6 holy grail is better than my p6 holy grail then.
01:16 Juerd Where one could argue that numbering the products in such way is already an unfair bias towards one of the two products.
01:17 Juerd stevan: I don't have a holy grail.
01:17 * stevan cant seem to find his either
01:17 Alias_ I have one
01:17 * Alias_ chuckles
01:17 Juerd Damnit, holy wars aren't what they used to be. I blame purl for showing their silliness.
01:17 stevan Alias_: yeah, well,... .au is too far away
01:17 grayson joined perl6
01:18 stevan and it doesnt have the same type of "coffee" shops
01:18 Juerd Alias_: Doesn't the definition of holy grail exclude any possibility of finding one? ;)
01:18 Alias_ steven: We don't need to contain it in shops
01:18 Juerd .oO( damn tourists )
01:18 Alias_ steven: I live 15 minutes from Nimbin
01:18 Alias_ http://www.nimbinmardigrass.com/2005/
01:18 theorbtwo I was thinking of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki​/Heaven%27s_Gate_%28cult%29 -- who had vodka and applesauce, not koolaid.)
01:19 Alias_ Juerd: true...
01:19 * stevan wondered how one managed to write 100+ modules and still be sane ... :P
01:20 Amnesiac joined perl6
01:20 Alias_ stevan: You make sure there are no bugs
01:20 theorbtwo stevan: What makes you think Alias is sane?
01:20 stevan theorbtwo: nothing actually :P
01:20 Alias_ stennie: The big trick is not to get trapped into writing code for vague non-well-defined problems
01:21 theorbtwo Hm, modules where you can be sure there are no bugs sounds like boring modules.
01:21 Alias_ stennie: Those are the ones that accumulate a bug a week and you spend lots of time patching
01:21 * stevan looks around and wonders who stennie is?
01:21 Alias_ crap
01:21 Alias_ tab-complete
01:21 stevan :)
01:21 Juerd crap complete
01:21 * stevan thinks Alias_ should lay off the *cough* stuff *cough*
01:21 MrFarts joined perl6
01:22 Alias_ theorbtwo: True, but the problem is you can only accumulate two or three of these sorts of "exciting" modules before you grind to a halt
01:22 Alias_ Look at audreyt :)
01:22 theorbtwo Hm, point.
01:22 stevan Alias_: well the great thing is that very few people end up using them too
01:22 Alias_ M:I + PAR + a few other crazy things have stopped her release rate
01:22 mugwumpjism Anyone have the link to the online version of TAPL?
01:22 * stevan points to some of his odder modules
01:22 stevan mugwumpjism: it's online??
01:22 * theorbtwo has three modules... and I only know of any non-me users for one of them.
01:23 mugwumpjism stevan: it's a .cn url :)
01:23 * Juerd is currently working on a paid $job, where the result will in great part be open sourced when finished
01:23 stevan mugwumpjism: I have a copy right next to me, but I dont know the URL
01:23 Juerd But I don't get to design the stuff, and the design imposed sucks.
01:23 Juerd I think there'll be bugs because of workarounds that are needed because the design isn't solid.
01:23 Alias_ ew
01:24 Juerd And those are, perhaps, the worst kind of bug.
01:24 mugwumpjism ah, +site:cn found it
01:24 mugwumpjism http://www.qiji.cn/eprint/abs/2761.html
01:24 Alias_ Juerd: There's one worse... specification bugs
01:24 Alias_ Juerd: Get a copy of Code Complete
01:24 Juerd Alias_: What's a specification bug? When the specs are wrong?
01:24 Alias_ yes
01:24 Juerd Those are horrible, but at least you don't see them coming.
01:24 theorbtwo Where your choices are to be broken because you don't match the specification, or to be broken because you /do/ match the specification?
01:25 Alias_ But when they arrive they are far worse than a design problem
01:25 Juerd The bugs I speak of haunt me already, before the code that will have them even exists
01:25 Alias_ No chance to talk about design tweaks
01:26 Juerd Oh, there's talk already. Just hard to convince people who "spent months" designing something, if you've been working with them for less than a month only.
01:26 grayson` joined perl6
01:26 Alias_ true
01:26 grayson joined perl6
01:26 Juerd The most heard category of responses to my alternative design was "But why not merge that thing with that other thing?"
01:27 Juerd Where the two things are different.
01:27 Juerd The same category: "Why split that?"
01:27 Juerd They completely misunderstand the point of refactoring, it seems.
01:28 Juerd They want to end up with something monolithic
01:28 Alias_ yeah
01:28 vel joined perl6
01:28 Alias_ Baby Syndrome?
01:29 Juerd Dunno - don't know the term (Tonight is my "learning English" night, I guess)
01:29 Alias_ In fact, we can call it Gollum Syndrome now!
01:29 Alias_ "my precious!"
01:29 Juerd Ah, heh. Certainly.
01:29 Juerd Oh, and another form of response in the same category: "Can't we just create a single module that does all this?"
01:29 Alias_ Juerd: English slang, when a project becomes "your baby"
01:30 Juerd Or: "But then you end up with lots of small scripts and files, how can that be good design?"
01:30 Juerd Alias_: I was thinking the people having this syndrome were compared to babies, instead of the project :)
01:33 Juerd Also funny, in the weekly development meeting yesterday, code reviews were announced. Every developer is supposed to spend a few hours per week reviewing.
01:33 Juerd This is a good plan, of course.
01:33 Juerd But there are no guidelines by which to review. There was no clear objective for reviewing. There is no table of who should review what.
01:33 Juerd There are no coding standards in this company yet.
01:33 bogey_lj left perl6
01:33 * Alias_ scribbles "should have used CPAN module Foo... and here module Bar..."
01:34 Juerd And... their existing code sucks, and they admit that.
01:34 Alias_ Juerd: Buy some copies of PBP and slap "coding standard" on it
01:34 Juerd But code checked in also still contains goto LABEL like stuff.
01:34 Alias_ Perl::Critic :)
01:34 Juerd Alias_: I wish I could agree with PBP.
01:35 Juerd I have recommended that they get some copies and read it.
01:36 Juerd But recommending use of source filters, even if only during development, I do not condone :)
01:36 Alias_ There's some dangerous ones in there true
01:36 Alias_ Feel free to mix in my style guide
01:36 theorbtwo IIRC, PBP's into is great, he says things like "focus on big things, not silly details", and "always think about why purticular standards, and what standards fit your environment", and then gives fiddly-detail recomendations, and the community takes his word as cannon...
01:37 Alias_ http://ali.as/devel/code.html
01:37 Alias_ heh, yeah
01:37 Alias_ But Perl::Critic does allow you to enable/disable specific rules
01:37 Alias_ So at a practical level you can enforce the subset you agree with
01:37 Juerd Alias_: Thanks, I'll reread that and maybe use parts of it
01:38 Alias_ It's bits and pieces I picked up doing bigger projects than Damian does
01:38 Alias_ So it might have more things applicable to you
01:38 Juerd Uhhuh; I've read it before.
01:38 Juerd And have commented on it.
01:38 Alias_ goodo
01:38 Alias_ I should consider wikifying it
01:39 Juerd Or someone else has written a very similar one :)
01:42 putter back
01:42 putter my god, just a wee bit of conversation to backlog
01:42 Juerd putter: A "pause" button would be a useful addition to IRC :P
01:49 * theorbtwo calls it a night.
01:52 putter that's the pause button ;)
01:52 drbean joined perl6
01:53 Juerd rehi
01:53 Juerd putter: No, IRC continues :)
01:53 Alias_ TIVO for IRC
01:54 Juerd Hehe
01:54 Juerd "Cannot connect"
01:55 Juerd [details] --> "Check if the foo daemon is running"
01:55 Juerd I'm used to having techie information under [details] buttons
01:55 Juerd Or, details
01:55 putter mugwumpjism: so what's a .chm file?
01:56 Juerd putter: Eek, is that the windows help file thing?
01:56 putter ah, yes
01:56 Juerd Some form of used-to-be-html-but-was-binar​y-crippled-for-inoperability format
01:57 putter :)
01:57 Debolaz2 joined perl6
01:57 putter ok, time for pizza.  bbl &
02:29 n0m3rcy joined perl6
02:29 n0m3rcy left perl6
02:30 mugwumpjism putter: use extract_chmLib to convert to HTML
02:34 putter mugwumpjism: thanks!  i actually bought tapl at a sale a while back.  but was curious. :)
02:35 putter mmm, za.  nothing like standing in the cold directing traffic around a fire scene (next to the pizza place) to build appetite. ;)
02:36 putter just never know what you are going to hit when you head out the door.  neat. :)
02:36 putter bbiab
02:42 robkinyon seen stevan
02:42 jabbot robkinyon: stevan was seen 1 hours 19 minutes 28 seconds ago
02:44 mugwumpjism http://utsl.gen.nz/talks/perl6.does-ML/start.html
02:45 vel joined perl6
03:09 dduncan joined perl6
03:15 putter mugwumpjism: would you like comments?
03:19 putter mugwump: ping?
03:21 nothingmuch joined perl6
03:30 putter oh, nz.  utc+12.  ;)
03:30 putter wait, that's...
03:30 beppu sometimes, I think we perl coders are to hard on ourselves and our favorite language.  I just installed http://www.datenklause.de/en​/software/qgreylistrbl.html on my friend's server, and it's blocking spam like a champ.
03:30 beppu I'm pretty fucking happy.
03:31 putter spamblocking++
03:31 beppu It might not be as sexy as rubyonrails or $whatever_the_fuck_people_are_doing_with_python but it really fucking useful.
03:31 beppu s/it/it is/
03:32 beppu greylisting is the best!
03:34 beppu thousands of spam emails were hitting the server every day, but now it's but a trickle.  greylisting is so simple and yet so effective.  
03:37 gaal joined perl6
03:37 beppu perl: 1 / spam: 0
03:37 Daniel_Nee joined perl6
03:38 Alias_ beppu: You always want back where you used to be
03:38 kanru joined perl6
03:38 Alias_ beppu: Personally, I think web is just a nightmarish battleground of hype at the moment, and I'm moving on to more interesting fields
03:38 Alias_ especially low-end web
03:40 beppu Alias_, that's cool.  I think branching out and diversifying the %things_that_perl_can_do is a great thing.
03:40 Alias_ plus there's some areas really ripe for it
03:40 Alias_ Toolchain, testing, VBA replacement
03:41 Alias_ swiss army integration
03:41 beppu My best friend works for Sony R&D (and at game companies in the past) and he's snuck a lot of perl into places where it was largely unheard of.
03:42 Alias_ :)
03:46 beppu A lot of game places write their tools in C/C++, but my friend (a good perl coder) looked at all that they were doing and thought to himself: I could do this in a fraction of the time ...in Perl.
03:47 Alias_ yep
03:47 beppu Many of his C++-coding coworkers were skeptical at first, but he showed them what was up.
03:47 Alias_ If it doesn't need to ship, why make it compilable
03:47 beppu That's like a foreign concept to some people.
03:47 beppu Of course, not to us, but...
03:48 beppu Game dev has a very different culture.
03:48 Alias_ we have the other problem :)
03:48 beppu Changing topics, what did you mean by "low-end web" ?
03:48 vel joined perl6
03:49 Alias_ Budgets between zero and $20k
03:49 Alias_ hell, between zero and $100k
03:51 beppu That's all I've ever worked on.
03:51 Alias_ That's all a lot of people have
03:51 Alias_ There's where Perl and PHP and Python and Ruby are all duking it out
03:52 beppu Who has the high-end ?
03:52 beppu Java?
03:52 Alias_ Java and Perl
03:52 Alias_ Possibly in that order
03:53 Alias_ Things get tricky when you want to serve a billion pages a day
03:54 beppu For the low-end, easy installation seems to be the order of the day.  That's the only technical strength PHP has going for it, and look where that got it.
03:54 Alias_ Elaine's Law
03:54 Alias_ http://www.google.com/search?&amp;q=Elaine's%20Law
03:57 beppu I agree.
04:02 beppu Alias_++
04:07 vel joined perl6
04:07 Alias_ huge part of what made debian so successful, despite it having a slower release cycle
04:08 Alias_ and, less deservedly so, PHP :)
04:20 meppl guten morgen
04:25 feng joined perl6
04:28 mlh_ Alias_: who is the Elaine in Elaine's Law?  (nice law btw)
04:29 Alias_ aevil? happyfunball/hfb? Jarkko's wife?
04:29 Alias_ one of the sysadmins for the master CPAN infrastructure
04:55 Amnesiac joined perl6
05:02 stevan mugwumpjism++ # nice lightning talk :)
05:07 gaal joined perl6
05:24 brentdax joined perl6
05:25 brentdax Is Parrot embedding broken?
05:27 brentdax I'm getting an error about PARROT_PATH not being set correctly when it certainly seems to be.
05:28 audreyt joined perl6
05:30 putter mugwumpjism: a couple of thoughts, then off to sleep.
05:30 scook0 joined perl6
05:32 putter you might mention the FP community forsaking fragmentation, coming together to do haskell.  also then monads, and the hairshirt becoming more armor than mortification.
05:32 Alias_ FP?
05:32 Skud joined perl6
05:34 brentdax FP=functional programming, I assume.
05:34 Skud morning.
05:34 Alias_ "morning"?
05:34 Skud feels like morning.
05:34 Skud anyway, it's morning in... *ponders* ... the middle east?
05:35 Skud seen ingy?
05:35 jabbot Skud: ingy was seen 1 days 17 hours 39 minutes 7 seconds ago
05:35 putter re pre pugs p6, I cant speak to the p6l side of things.  but for parrot, I think you mischaracterize it.  it was one of the worst project management jobs I've seen, and that's included some real dozies.  if pugs had been managed similar, well, audreyt being who she is, it would have gone further.  but no further than that.
05:38 putter let's see, strictly typed is not equiv to does(ML).  TCL is strictly typed.
05:40 putter I'm not sure I share stevan's enthusiasm for the St object model.  Then again, it's nicer than what most people are using now, so at least in constrast...
05:41 putter but all in all, I liked the slides. :)  good luck with the talk.  (soon?  i didnt see a listing on the local pm boards)
05:42 putter Alias_: yes, what brentdax said. :)
05:45 putter ok.  *whistle blows*.  next pugs shift.  smokes on the smokeserv, ext/ fails to be characterzied, a TASKS file for the "dont feel like debugging right now".  have fun.
05:45 putter :)
05:48 putter Alias_: re FP, my understanding is, to an approximation at least, the fp community started down the path of everyone doing there own little variant language, but the manage to instead pull together to build a common foundation, haskell.  if they hadnt', they might today be worse of than even say the scheme and prolog folks,
05:48 Alias_ ah
05:50 putter whose versions of the "same language" are often, even pathologically, incompatable.  and whose standardization efforts have a thickness of politics resembling... high-school student government?  something pointless but loud and interminable.  ;)
05:50 SamB and then somebody came up with type classes... and someone else stole monads from denotational semantics...
05:50 Alias_ denotational is a word?
05:51 putter I'm being a bit sloppy and unfair, but that's at least the flavor of my impression of it.
05:51 SamB Alias_: I'm pretty sure
05:51 putter denotational is a most excellent word
05:51 Alias_ I'm quite used to not knowing all the world
05:51 Alias_ words
05:52 Alias_ I just putter with lego and build things
05:52 putter the wikipedia entry for denotational semantics looks pretty poor, let's see...
05:53 Alias_ Give me some blocks and I'll make you some bigger blocks, if there's a denotational emantic monad involved, just call it something I don't need a math degree for :)
05:54 SamB Alias_: okay, we will go with the accepted (humerous) wisdom and call it a "Warm Fuzzy Thing" instead of a Monad
05:54 Alias_ Can we call it an Action... or an Imperative Block?
05:54 SamB and, well, monads are a lot like legos ;-)
05:55 Alias_ From what I can tell, they are mostly for doing C<    imperative { ...; ...; ...; }
05:55 putter i haven't looked far or closely (just working down the google hit list), but  http://www.risc.uni-linz.ac.at/people​/schreine/courses/densem/densem.html  looks maybe plausible
05:57 putter oooh, I haven't seen that tried.  let's name monads and arrows after legos.  that captures their broadest use - structuring library apis so all the pieces can be combined and simply plugged into each other...
05:58 Alias_ For gui assembly?
05:58 Alias_ ooo
05:58 Alias_ Or embed code fragments on RFID id chips inside REAL legos
06:00 putter "An introduction to software library legos.  One bump is "return", the second..."
06:00 putter :)
06:00 putter the mit media lab has these beads on strings,
06:02 putter which contain various behavior, hmm, memory fuzzy, like reflect every other pulse, and then... fuzzy... light pulses move up and down the necklace, under the influence of the particular set and pattern of beads.  kids can then trade, modify, etc.
06:05 putter http://web.media.mit.edu/~mres/p​apers/chi-98/digital-manip.html   a bit old, but
06:05 Alias_ left perl6
06:06 kakos joined perl6
06:11 putter cant find anything better.  eh.  anyway, the idea is just to go overboard towards complete familiar objects/terms.  not sure how to do monad function wraping.  oh, maybe your lego with a chip.  but a function chip.  so the lego blocks are a way to easily plug together a bunch of function chips.  how's that? ;)
06:16 putter 1am.  good night all &
06:16 drbean joined perl6
06:25 putter joined perl6
06:29 putter actually, Alias_?  math is just legos.  described by a community with the pathological concept that golfing should be applied the entirety of their written material.  like a perl module which said "INSTALLation instructions: solve this puzzle OHnf08yhfb and it will be self-evident how to install this package."
06:30 putter Most all math writing is the antithesis of Elaine's Law.  Various theories re the social mechanisms which go into that.  But the upshot is,
06:33 putter imagine lego described in doggel latin verse, which compared them to... bits of foreign fruit and extinct animal behavior. ;)  precision, but with little effort at introduction or accessible-by-approximation to non-collegues.  survey articles are soo much better.  but also seem less common than in sciences/engineering.
06:35 putter hopefully this will change some day.  a greater role for computers in math literature will help.  but it's going to stay a pain for a while.
06:41 putter that said, it would be nice if p6 ends up with an algebraic type hierarchy.  groups and rings and such.  affine geometry for graphics.  what else?
06:42 putter hey, neat.  a LOGO turtle graphics approach to affine geometry: http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:YSUwb​18QI2UJ:www.owlnet.rice.edu/~comp360/lect​ures/ConnectDotsText.pdf+affine+graphics&​amp;hl=en&amp;gl=us&amp;ct=clnk&amp;cd=1
06:43 putter &
07:31 beppu joined perl6
07:32 * audreyt resumes releng.
07:32 gaal hello!
07:33 audreyt yo!
07:34 audreyt I've been reading up on LINQ
07:34 audreyt <- filled with weird and nice ideas
07:34 audreyt but releng first, definitely :)
07:34 audreyt how's life for you, gaal?
07:35 gaal Not bad! I just worked with Ingy a bit on Perldoc
07:35 gaal but so far my contribution has been minor
07:36 gaal my morning looked like this: I woke up thinkging I should go finish rereading the awkward squad paper
07:37 gaal but I coulnd't find it on my disk, so I started rereading the sexy types summary
07:37 gaal this time around I actually didn't understand it
07:37 gaal as opposed to stare blankly at it, which was what happened the first time :)
07:38 gaal then ingy popped by and we discussed p5 export stuff.
07:38 gaal then I got coffee :-)
07:38 gaal anyway, what's on the plate in pugs now? :)
07:39 audreyt releng, mostly, I think
07:40 audreyt also solving the state.t mystery
07:40 audreyt (fails on make smoke but works with running by hand)
07:40 gaal different Test.pm ?
07:41 audreyt probably not
07:41 * gaal svn ups
07:41 audreyt also I have a half-finished patch on pairs.t
07:41 audreyt or rather on pairs parsing
07:41 audreyt I'd like to get it correct this time
07:42 gaal I don't understand that stuff at all :-(
07:42 audreyt f(a=>1); # named
07:42 audreyt f((a=>1)); # positional
07:42 audreyt f("a"=>1); # named
07:42 iblechbot joined perl6
07:42 audreyt f(("a")=>1); # named -- but currently parsed as pisitional
07:42 audreyt the reason is that it was looking at a '('
07:42 audreyt and force positional if it's that way
07:43 audreyt but in fact if the ( just surrounds the key part
07:43 gaal I remember, changelogging, I saw scook0's "demagicalize pairs" commit
07:43 audreyt then it is actualy named
07:43 audreyt yes
07:43 gaal this syntax is tricky.
07:44 audreyt indeed
07:44 gaal what magic was there that needed to be de-'ed?
07:44 audreyt anyway, I'll probably finish it up in ~30min
07:44 audreyt oh
07:44 audreyt it was previously specced
07:44 audreyt during toronto hackathon
07:44 audreyt that a Pair object causes named binding
07:44 audreyt much like a Junction does
07:44 audreyt however, it proved to be extremely bad
07:44 audreyt so the decision is reverted to a parser-level thing
07:44 gaal cause then how do you pass a Pair?
07:45 audreyt now named or not is a purely syntax  patter
07:45 audreyt right, you can't pass a pair
07:45 audreyt without the function declared as Item|Pair
07:45 audreyt or some other nonsense
07:45 gaal I see
07:45 audreyt also, somehow "make ghci" is broken again
07:45 audreyt complaining missing syck symbols
07:46 audreyt havn't had time to look at it
07:46 gaal I'm afraid I can't help with that; it never worked for me on colinux :(
07:47 audreyt :/
07:47 audreyt there's some triage left near the top half though
07:47 audreyt t/builtins/arrays/splice.t is failing last one
07:47 gaal what do you see with state.t? running by hand I see some failures and some okay
07:47 audreyt but you don't see "failed" in the last summary line
07:48 audreyt t/builtins/math/NaN.t need some work to sync with the p6l too
07:48 gaal that sounds like a wrong plan
07:48 audreyt *nod*
07:48 gaal oh, sorry, the fails I see on the cmdline are all TODOs.
07:49 gaal could it be that the (#1) in the test description is confusing Test.pm? :-) checking.
07:50 gaal yeah.
07:50 gaal fixing.
07:50 Cryptic_K joined perl6
07:51 audreyt gaal: check /msg when you got a chance :)
07:53 svnbot6 r8788 | gaal++ | * "#" in the test description confuses Test.pm.
07:53 svnbot6 r8788 | gaal++ |   Remove it now, and fix Test.pm later.
07:53 gaal audreyt: replied
07:54 audreyt not seeing it
07:54 audreyt nickserv?
07:55 gaal (error notices in different window)--
07:59 audreyt and I fixed the parens/pairs parsing as well
08:03 gaal oh, there was the pil test issue, it wasn't resolved was it? let me find an old nopaste about it
08:04 * gaal realizes his last commit message was bogus; it's the TAP harness that's confused, not Test.pm.
08:04 gaal this is probably a bug in TAP though :-)
08:05 audreyt I think the correct way is to escape the #
08:05 audreyt see p5
08:06 gaal $desc ~~ s:g/#/\\#/ in the harness, or in the test?
08:06 audreyt in Test.pm I think
08:06 gaal er
08:06 audreyt s:P5:g for now
08:06 gaal I meant in Test or in the test :)
08:06 gaal sure
08:06 gaal ok
08:16 gaal audreyt: please see http://sial.org/pbot/15479
08:16 svnbot6 r8789 | gaal++ | * t/var/state.t - revert r8788
08:16 svnbot6 r8789 | gaal++ | * ext/Test/lib/Test.pm - fix the problem where it ought to be fixed.
08:16 gaal context: it was meant as a patch to Test/lib/Test/Pil.pm
08:16 gaal to fix prove t/pil when pil isn't found
08:16 audreyt nod
08:17 gaal when this is run, there's an error about &pil_is_eq not found (at runtime)
08:18 gaal so I think there may be a problem in dispatch or in symbol construction
08:18 audreyt at the         &pil_is_eq := {"";} line ?
08:19 gaal no, in the context of the .t file
08:21 gaal (btw {"";} was just me being paranoid that {;} was still not being parsed as a closure)
08:23 audreyt ok, I'm still in the named thing
08:23 audreyt a sec
08:24 gaal sure.
08:24 gaal i'll look at the array thing
08:29 gaal regarding t/builtins/arrays/splice.t - it "fails correctly" here, that is, the last test fails and prove reports it as such. also http://m19s28.vlinux.de/iblech/stuff/pugs-s​mokes/pugs-smoke-6.2.10-r8787-darwin-normal​--1138320179-3810--11385-9979-1406-1183-154​1-0--da205a868ac5f2244cff558ab4309cf9.html paints it red.
08:29 svnbot6 r8790 | audreyt++ | * Correctly implement parens as the disambiguator for named args.
08:33 wilx joined perl6
08:45 svnbot6 r8791 | audreyt++ | * did I say "correct"? I said "approximately correct".
08:46 audreyt gaal: er, I mean, to triage it
08:46 audreyt i.e. fix the bug or mark it as todo
08:47 gaal fixing the bug I think involves getting the Prim spec right (remember our discusssion about List::foo?)
08:47 audreyt nod
08:47 gaal ergo, I'll :todo it :-)
08:47 audreyt so just todo it for now
08:48 gaal on it. (dies_ok does not take :todo; I think I'll fix that)
08:53 gaal sub dies_ok (Code &code, Str $desc?, :$todo, :$depends)
08:53 gaal is :$todo the syntax for a pair?
08:53 dduncan yes
08:54 gaal the code looks like it should already work, but doesn't.
08:54 gaal hi dduncan
08:54 dduncan hi
08:54 dduncan but not for long
08:55 dduncan I also like to be explicit about about requirements, so I have an explicit ! or ? after ALL my parameter declarations
08:55 audreyt ?eval sub f (:$a!) { $a } f("this is not named")
08:56 evalbot_8782 is now known as evalbot_8791
08:56 evalbot_8791 \"this is not named"
08:56 dduncan that looks borken
08:57 gaal don't signatures have an automatic positional form if they can get away with it? it's a fewature
08:57 gaal *feature
08:57 dduncan leaving out the : makes it positional
08:57 dduncan putting it in makes it named
08:58 dduncan the presence or absense of : is the only difference with an otherwise same parameter
08:58 audreyt yeah, that's broken.
08:58 gaal why *demand* your callers use named args?
08:58 audreyt fixed.
08:58 audreyt committing
08:58 gaal lol
08:58 gaal so good to have you back, audrey :)
08:58 dduncan gaal, for forwards compatibility
08:58 gaal ahhhh yes
08:58 gaal good reason
08:59 gaal dduncan: thank you; your answer just helped me understand something in haskell
09:01 svnbot6 r8792 | audreyt++ | * required named parameters should be checked along
09:01 svnbot6 r8792 | audreyt++ |   with required positional parameters.
09:01 audreyt gaal: oh?
09:01 audreyt ?eval sub f (:$a!) { $a } f("this is not named")
09:01 gaal audreyt: I was wondering when to use trivial type aliases
09:01 audreyt answer is "always"
09:01 gaal if you have e.g.
09:01 evalbot_8791 \"this is not named"
09:01 audreyt unless you have newtype, which is even better
09:01 * audreyt waits for evalbot to pick up r8792
09:01 dduncan how often does evalbot check for a new version?
09:01 gaal data YamlNode = MkYamlNode { tag :: YamlTag, anchor :: YamlAnchor }
09:01 gaal though they are really both (Maybe String)
09:02 gaal now other people's code won't compile if I change the order of these two elements, and they were using positional access.
09:02 gaal which is, of course, good
09:02 audreyt dduncan: 5min
09:02 gaal because otherwise I'd have introduiced a bug
09:02 audreyt ?eval sub f (:$a!) { $a } f("this is not named")
09:02 evalbot_8791 \"this is not named"
09:03 audreyt gaal: aha, which is why you should've used a newtype :)
09:03 audreyt because if you use "type" aliasing, their code actually compiles.
09:03 audreyt sad, but true
09:03 gaal I was wondering about this, because I was reading the example in TaPL about how aliasing say Dollar and Euro prevents you form doing silly things like dollaramount+euroamount
09:04 audreyt nod
09:04 audreyt type alias in hs is mostly about readability and sensible errmsgs
09:04 audreyt to achieve safety, use newtype + deriving
09:04 audreyt which is guaranteed to not affect runtime performance either
09:05 gaal great, several clicks in one sitting :)
09:05 gaal but that also reminds me, why do we sometimes get errors about EvalT blah blorgh foo instead of Eval?
09:06 gaal I mean, when I make a programmer error and forget to "return Val" and instead just "Val"
09:06 gaal the inferencer error there could be more friendly
09:06 Alias_ joined perl6
09:06 Alias_ seen audreyt?
09:06 jabbot Alias_: audreyt was seen 2 minutes 4 seconds ago
09:06 audreyt Alias_: yes?
09:07 Alias_ audreyt: I hit a bug with install_share, and I need some input on the solution
09:07 audreyt gaal: indeed
09:07 obra Alias_: what are you running into?
09:07 Alias_ audreyt: When the libs install, an auto-dir ends up in BOTH of blib/lib and blib/arch
09:07 obra (As a user, I'm interested ;)
09:08 Alias_ But the actual share dir is installed into blib/arch
09:08 Alias_ In all @INCs I know of, the lib comes before the arch
09:08 gaal audreyt: so why doesn't it? they are aliases, IIRC
09:08 Alias_ So if you do a dist_dir('Dist-Name') you see the (empty) blib/lib
09:09 Alias_ But if you do a dist_file('Dist-Name', 'filename.txt') you get the path in blib/arch
09:09 Bit-Man joined perl6
09:09 Alias_ Meaning that dist_dir('Dist-Name', 'file')  no catfile( dist_dir('Dist-Name'), 'file' ), an extremely obvious assumption
09:09 Alias_ s/no/ne
09:10 gaal okay, I looked into newtype, the problem is that for essentially trivial types it's a little clunky
09:10 audreyt gaal: I think it's just the desugarer  didn't consult the type alias table
09:10 Alias_ So I'm wondering if either the files can be put into blib/lib instead (unsure of the implications within the lib naming scheme) or something else can be done
09:11 audreyt gaal: I can hack that into GHC, or you could too, but that'd be after this release :)
09:11 gaal :)
09:11 gaal that "you could too" remark fills me with terror and anticipation
09:12 audreyt gaal: I can show you around the GHC tree when I'm in .il
09:12 audreyt it's really not that bad
09:12 audreyt especially compared to perl5 internals.
09:12 gaal heh.
09:13 audreyt Alias_: I think putting it to blib/lib/'s auto makes sense.
09:13 gaal I have to figure out how to set up a build environment for ghc though, it's a little tricky on debian unfortunately.
09:13 audreyt Alias_: the shared files shouldn't be arch dependent.
09:13 Alias_ audreyt: I would think not in 99% of cases
09:14 audreyt good then, move them off arch
09:14 Alias_ erm, how
09:14 audreyt carefully
09:14 Alias_ The instructions are in raw Makefile fragments
09:14 audreyt done
09:14 audreyt committing
09:14 Alias_ thanks, I'll package and release
09:14 Alias_ (Changes, etc)
09:15 audreyt test first :)
09:15 Alias_ M:I has tests now?
09:15 audreyt no, I mean, test for interop with File::ShareDir first ;)
09:15 audreyt r91.
09:15 Alias_ My test case is that File::HomeConfig (new module) works if it uses lib, fails if it uses arch
09:15 audreyt ok
09:16 audreyt it's committed now, enjoy
09:16 Alias_ But I'll add an extra check to an appropriate place in File::ShareDir too
09:16 Alias_ thanks
09:16 audreyt np :)
09:16 audreyt Alias++ # driving practical innovations
09:16 Alias_ obra: Should mean zero functional change except in the case where you want to recursively copy the contents of dist_dir('Dist-Name') to somewhere else
09:16 Alias_ obra: In fact, dist_file will continue to work for both old and new locations
09:17 Alias_ dist_dir will return the same too
09:17 Alias_ It's just that the VALUE of dist_file might be either of the two for a while, wherever it finds the file
09:18 Alias_ obra: Oh, also, is there any way in rt.cpan.org on a bug's page(s) to have a link to the queue it's in, so once a bug is resolve I can go back to the queue?
09:18 Alias_ (without searching from scratch again)
09:18 svnbot6 r8793 | audreyt++ | * pairs.t now has two fails only (was 10+); fixing them both now.
09:19 obra Alias_: please use the address on the site
09:20 obra I no longer deal directly with rt.cpan.org. It's all delegated to minions
09:20 Alias_ There's a queue for itself?
09:20 obra Of course
09:20 obra on a differnet RT instance
09:20 Alias_ ooohhh...
09:20 Alias_ ok, didn't see any obvious link
09:20 obra ...that you can't see ;)
09:20 Alias_ will look again
09:21 Alias_ cpan-questions@?
09:22 obra upper right hand corner of every page
09:22 Alias_ So that's a yes :)
09:22 Alias_ (and "except the front one")
09:22 obra on the front one, it's in the prose
09:23 Alias_ yep
09:23 Alias_ So yes :)
09:27 svnbot6 r8794 | audreyt++ | * pairs.t: add extra tests for the currently broken behaviour:
09:27 svnbot6 r8794 | audreyt++ |     $f(((:a))) # positional (correct)
09:27 svnbot6 r8794 | audreyt++ |     $f((:a))   # named (incorrect)
09:27 svnbot6 r8794 | audreyt++ |   so we can revisit this later.
09:28 audreyt looking at pil_is_eq now.
09:28 Alias_ (pause keys)++ # Makes life so much less fiddly
09:29 audreyt for a split second I thought you were talking about PAUSE2003.pub.
09:29 obra (pause keys)++ # Automatically sync my cpan mirror.
09:29 Alias_ oh god no :)
09:29 obra yes, actually
09:30 Alias_ well, yes too, but not the kind of fiddly I mean
09:32 * audreyt nominates the paragraph above for the "context-free dialogues of the year" award
09:32 svnbot6 r8795 | gaal++ | * Data.Yaml.Syck - remove comment about pesky warning needing to be dealt
09:32 svnbot6 r8795 | gaal++ |   with, bacause audretyt++ already did.
09:33 audreyt hm, I need to go picking up my eyeglasses.
09:33 audreyt which should make Reality even more realistic and fun.
09:33 audreyt <- never wore eyeglasses before
09:33 Alias_ audreyt: The field of vision restriction gets annoying after a while
09:33 Alias_ But you can read!
09:34 audreyt Alias_: my eyeglasses has style="border: none"
09:34 Alias_ doesn't matter
09:35 Alias_ optical edge cases at the boundaries create border: solid 1px #99999
09:35 audreyt true
09:35 audreyt though it's more like ridged in my case
09:35 * audreyt sighs at the general geekiness
09:35 audreyt anyway... be back in ~20mins
09:35 audreyt &
09:36 Alias_ yeah, and still accurate
09:36 Alias_ which is more annoying
09:38 svnbot6 r8796 | gaal++ | t/builtins/arrays/splice.t - mark test TODO for release
09:39 kane_ joined perl6
09:39 * gaal wonders if there's a good way to prevent bugs like f(a), b; when you mean f(a, b);
09:40 gaal apart from getting into the habit of not using parens
09:41 gaal I just spent 15 minutes debugging dies_ok because I didn't notice the parens in the original call :/
09:48 pfarmer joined perl6
09:49 dduncan good night folks
09:50 dduncan I look forward to that 6.2.11 ...
10:01 dada joined perl6
10:02 drbean joined perl6
10:09 chris2 joined perl6
10:15 Alias_ crap...
10:15 Alias_ enoaudrey
10:19 G2 joined perl6
10:24 gaal is t/rules/from_perl6_rules/charset.t working for you guys? it's causing ghc errors for me here.
10:24 Alias_ left perl6
10:33 nnunley joined perl6
10:37 elmex joined perl6
10:43 Alias_ joined perl6
10:43 Alias_ Module::Install 0.55 uploaded
10:43 Alias_ That is all. Carry on
10:43 Alias_ left perl6
10:54 gaal what's our current parrot version requirement?
10:55 gaal I'm suspecting the problem is related to that.
11:28 putter joined perl6
11:28 putter 0.4.1
11:28 theorbtwo gaal: In theory, the answer is always "the latest released version", I think.
11:28 * putter answers from his sleep
11:31 gaal well, parrot looks totally borked now :(
11:31 gaal I tried both embparrot and external
11:31 gaal embparrot segfaults
11:31 audreyt back
11:31 gaal external claims no rule support
11:32 audreyt hmm? weird, it worked for me
11:32 gaal parrot HEAD
11:32 audreyt HEAD I havn't checked.
11:32 audreyt check 0.4.1 instead?
11:32 gaal do you have the r for that?
11:32 putter re charset, a couple of Cannot parse PGE: on things which say ok.  odd.  but otherwise looks like it did the right thing
11:32 audreyt gaal: download it off cpan
11:32 gaal k
11:33 audreyt so I got my eyeglasses. then I looked into a mirror. that makes me depressed :/
11:33 putter ?
11:33 audreyt my skin sucks and I was blissfully unaware ;)
11:33 putter lol
11:33 putter sorry ;)
11:34 audreyt nah, that gives me another project to work on ;)
11:34 putter :)
11:36 putter doh.  no odd.  just failure test which failed for not quite the reason anticipated.
11:37 * putter goes back to sleep
11:37 putter &
11:38 svnbot6 r8797 | audreyt++ | * hexadecimal.t: add the missing =cut, so all its tests pass now.
11:38 audreyt sleep well :)
11:41 raar joined perl6
11:45 gaal well. external parrot just doesn't work for me :(
11:45 audreyt hm. win32?
11:46 gaal colinux
11:46 gaal let me try again with embedded / parrot release
11:50 lypanov joined perl6
11:50 gaal nope, segfaults.
11:50 gaal trying to get a stacktrace.
11:51 audreyt both embed and external workshere.
11:51 svnbot6 r8798 | audreyt++ | * NaN.t: In this release, 0**0 and Inf**0 are both 1, not NaN,
11:51 svnbot6 r8798 | audreyt++ |   until we find a better solution.
11:53 gaal looks related to parrot_split_path_ext
11:53 gaal leo: ping
11:55 nnunley ?eval NaN ** 0
11:55 evalbot_8791 is now known as evalbot_8798
11:55 evalbot_8798 1
11:56 nnunley That doesn't seem right.
11:56 ruz joined perl6
11:56 drbean joined perl6
11:58 audreyt that seems wrong. fixing
12:07 audreyt ooh, new spj paper, again directly related to p6.
12:07 audreyt s/related/applicable/
12:08 audreyt # http://research.microsoft.com/%7Es​imonpj/papers/not-not-ml/index.htm
12:15 svnbot6 r8799 | audreyt++ | * Test::Pil - skipping PIL tests when ./pil is not present.
12:17 wolverian wow, nice.
12:17 wolverian (the paper)
12:17 wolverian he keeps stealing our ideas ;)
12:19 gaal audreyt: r8799 works, I guess, though skip_all ; exit looks cheeky... did you see at all why my version wasn't working?
12:20 wolverian audreyt, what do they mean with "non-strict" when describing Haskell?
12:20 Blicero joined perl6
12:29 gaal summay of that paper: 10 Curry-Howard 20 GOTO Brain explosion
12:33 nnunley wolverian: I believe it means strict evaluation order.
12:34 audreyt gaal: no, not at all :)
12:34 wolverian nnunley, ah, thanks. I don't know what that means, exactly, either, but I'm closer now :)
12:34 audreyt wolverian: it means that Hs programs can be evaluated in any order :)
12:35 audreyt i.e. in [f x, g y, h z]
12:35 wolverian ahh. thanks!
12:35 audreyt it doesn't matter which one of the three are evaluated first
12:35 audreyt which is not the case in other languages, e.g. if "f" contains a $::global++
12:35 audreyt and "g" contains a $::global--
12:36 svnbot6 r8800 | audreyt++ | * nnunley caught that 0**NaN should be NaN, not 0.
12:40 audreyt Juerd: got the T-shirt, it's lovely, thanks! :)
12:45 pfarmer left perl6
12:47 joepurl joined perl6
13:19 stevan putter: Just FYI - I have no love for the Smalltalk 72/78 object models, mugwumpjism was a little off there,.. the mm is based on Smalltalk 80 and CLOS :)
13:19 stevan morning all
13:19 * stevan runs off to do errands and get coffee
13:20 audreyt heya stevan
13:20 svnbot6 r8801 | audreyt++ | * perl2.t: test cleanup, proper unTODO and TODOing, etc.
13:20 audreyt heard anything from tpf yet re yapc tokyo?
13:21 kolibrie joined perl6
13:24 Juerd audreyt: Yay :)
13:31 gaal I have to go now, back in... 20 hrs? unfortunately even after make clean embparrot still doesn't work here.
13:31 audreyt gaal: we'll figure it out later. I'll also try to get colinux running
13:31 audreyt ?eval 1 ~~ /1/
13:31 evalbot_8798 is now known as evalbot_8801
13:31 evalbot_8801 Match.new(   ok => bool::true,    from => 0,    to => 1,    str => "1",    sub_pos => (),    sub_named => {} )
13:35 lypanov audreyt: colinux is fun :)
13:35 audreyt :)
13:35 * audreyt is resmoking
13:35 audreyt the tree, not chemicals
13:35 * lypanov used it for just on 6 months when he got sick of the lack of wireless support for his laptop in linux
13:35 lypanov hehe
13:35 lypanov can you resmoke chemicals? :P
13:36 audreyt sure could :)
13:36 * lypanov wonders when vmware will announce something for the macbook pro
13:37 stevan_ joined perl6
13:38 stevan_ audreyt: re: tpf on yapc tokyo - no, not yet they review on Feb 1
13:39 * stevan_ crosses his fingers and prays to the gods of Perl :P
13:39 audreyt :D
13:39 audreyt I'm about to sleep (as usual)... been a very long day with various pre-lunar-new-year errands
13:39 audreyt tomorrow is the new year's eve :)
13:39 wolverian I wonder why people dislike POE.. any clues?
13:39 wolverian ohh, have fun :)
13:39 stevan_ yummy mooncakes :)
13:40 audreyt mooncakes are midautumn, which is many months from now :)
13:40 stevan_ ??
13:40 audreyt s/are/are for/
13:40 stevan_ whats the new years treat then?
13:41 * gaal should look up this lunar new year thing. It sounds like something that ought to happen every month?
13:41 audreyt rice cakes
13:41 gaal also, I must go now. see you later :-)     &
13:41 stevan_ hmmm,..they dont sound as tasty
13:41 audreyt indeed they are not
13:43 * stevan_ notes that white anglo-saxon americans enjoy mooncakes this time of year, probably because the chinese are not eating them so there are leftovers :)
13:44 audreyt lol
13:46 stevan_ ok, time to take out the dogs and run some errands
13:46 stevan_ adios all &
13:50 lypanov http://www-users.york.ac.uk/~fj​102/photo/beautiful%20china.htm
13:59 kanru joined perl6
14:01 rantanplan_ joined perl6
14:05 Qiang joined perl6
14:12 nothingmuch joined perl6
14:14 putter joined perl6
14:14 putter hey.  looks like shift change coming up? ;)
14:15 iblechbot joined perl6
14:16 audreyt ;)
14:16 audreyt hey putter :)
14:16 putter re NaN ** 0,  I don't remember if were still doing 754-1985 or are speculating, but if the latter, than everything ** 0 == 1, including NaN.  but whatever.
14:16 * audreyt is, indeed, going to sleep now -- journaling is deferred to tomorrow
14:16 putter hi audreyt
14:16 audreyt putter: I am speculating here :)
14:16 putter anything in particular you would like to see happen as you sleep?
14:17 audreyt 754-1985 thinks NaN**0==NaN, I think
14:17 audreyt putter: hm, more follow-up changelogging? :)
14:17 putter yyyes, putter pauses, I think so.
14:17 putter changelogging.  ok, anything else?
14:18 audreyt also, TODOing t/pugsbugs/* that are not regressions (i.e. those that fails at the end, or are checked in after last release)
14:18 audreyt I think it's safe to focus only on fixing regressions now
14:18 audreyt so newly reported pugsbugs, unless they are misfeatures or really trivial, should simplky be TODOed.
14:18 putter ok. :todo<> non-regression pugsbugs.  makes sense.  what else?
14:19 audreyt I think that's all :)
14:19 audreyt have fun :)
14:19 audreyt (also look at regressions if you have cycles)
14:19 putter ok.  thanks.  great to have you back.  sleep well. :)
14:20 putter ok, and linq, another time.
14:20 audreyt also the irreconsilable gaps between eager and lazy evaluation :)
14:21 audreyt and between typechecking and "where" style dynamic assertions
14:21 putter you mean the not^2 ML paper?  yes.  i just skimmed it a while back, but looked fun.
14:21 audreyt ("Haskell is not not ML" and "Hybrid Type Checking", both via LtU, on my reading list now)
14:21 putter LtU++
14:22 audreyt the hybrid typecheck thing is more directly applicable to PIL* though.
14:22 audreyt we'd really need that.
14:23 putter ooo, haven't seem HTC.  add to list.  bottom of list implodes.  office anti-black-hole safeties kick in.  putter wonders what paper he just lost.  oh well.
14:23 putter err, s/list/pile/
14:25 putter good night audreyt &
14:25 audreyt g'nite :)
14:25 putter stevan: want to read HTC together?
14:25 putter & :)
14:27 stevan HTC?
14:29 * stevan backlogs enough to decifer HTC
14:29 putter sorry, let's see...
14:29 stevan putter: sure... my errands have been delayed for about an hour
14:32 putter there it is, http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~cor​mac/papers/popl06-hybrid.ps
14:32 stevan cool
14:32 stevan ohhh,.. this one looks good too http://www.lfcs.inf.ed.ac.uk​/reports/98/ECS-LFCS-98-389/
14:33 putter stevan: have you seen a critque of smalltalk-80?  i vaguely remember seeing a nice one years ago, but my googling isnt turning it up...
14:33 stevan putter: I know the ST 7* metamodel designs were tossed out because of the "turtles all the way down" issue
14:34 stevan but '80 has been around for 26 years without much change
14:34 stevan the p6mm was closer to '80 when it had eigenclasses,.. which we are not using anymore since Larry wants class methods and instance methods to be the same thing
14:35 putter yeah, but I thought I once saw a "in retrospect, wish we had done x y z differently paper".  maybe.
14:35 stevan I am thinking a mm 3.0 is going to be needed after we have the new PIL runcore in place anyway
14:35 stevan putter: hmm... that would be good to read
14:36 * putter putter pops briefly over to #squeak .   then list list audreyt's todos for this shift.  then, whatever.
14:36 * stevan has found that few people agree on the best approach to metamodels
14:36 * stevan follows putter to #sqeak
14:37 Grrrr_ joined perl6
14:37 stevan hmmm, very quite in there
14:38 stevan I think I would like to see Roles have a similar model to the ML module system
14:38 putter yes.  ah well.  todo:
14:38 stevan :)
14:40 putter more follow-up changelogging; TODOing t/pugsbugs/* that are not regressions (i.e. those that fails at the end, or are checked in after last release); look at regressions.  Also "Hybrid Type Checking"; "Types For Modules".  And is the a st80 postmortem paper.
14:41 putter stevan: anything in particular you'd like to do pre-errands?
14:42 stevan putter: nope, just looking for the smalltalk stuff
14:42 putter ok, non-regressions seems like a dirt-brushing banana.  checking...
14:43 stevan http://users.ipa.net/~dwighth/small​talk/bluebook/bluebook_imp_toc.html
14:43 stevan its not what you are looking for.. but an interesting bit of stuff anyway
14:43 chris2 joined perl6
14:46 putter anyone know what the rNNNN of the last release was?
14:46 putter err, or what the last release N.N.N was?
14:47 * lypanov giggles
14:47 lypanov i have a new tshirt idea:
14:47 lypanov $
14:47 lypanov =>
14:47 lypanov FIXED
14:47 stevan putter: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/276
14:47 * stevan is following some of these links
14:47 putter stevan: re bluebook, neat.  you've seen Slate, yes?
14:48 stevan Slate?
14:48 putter ST derivative?  putter looks for link...  may have name wrong....
14:48 putter http://slate.tunes.org/
14:49 * putter bookmarks bluebook chapters, doesn't quite get lypanov's t-shirt - puzzled...
14:50 chris2 lypanov: ?
14:51 putter stevan: oh, awesome.  classics-online++.  now if only we could get the ACM digitial library to open up, open source would actually have access to the literature...
14:52 stevan putter: http://slate.tunes.org/documentation.html
14:52 lypanov putter / chris2: $$$ == dollars, FIXED as in bugzilla resolution
14:53 * putter still trying to figure out rNNNN of last release...  oh I know - grep captured #perl6 log... ;)
14:53 chris2 lypanov: i'm too clever for this world
14:53 lypanov what'd ya do now?
14:53 chris2 i thought of $ as being apply in haskell and fix-points :P
14:53 lypanov :P
14:54 lypanov umm
14:54 lypanov http://www.smallscript.org/
14:54 lypanov wish that was oss and worked with mono
14:57 avar joined perl6
14:58 putter [01:13] <svnbot6> r7520 | autrijus++ | * This be Pugs, version 6.2.10.
14:59 putter stevan: re slate docs, anything in particular?  it's a neat system.
15:00 putter lypanov: so create a smallscript front end to p6?
15:02 Limbic_Region joined perl6
15:03 svnbot6 r8802 | audreyt++ | * slurpy_param.t: unTODO two now-passing tests thanks to the
15:03 svnbot6 r8802 | audreyt++ |   named arg refactoring.
15:03 lypanov putter: mainly interesting from the perspective of for the speed and integration
15:03 lypanov coding in her sleep again :)
15:04 putter :)
15:04 stevan fscript is kind of cool too ,.. like Smalltalk meets APL IIRC http://www.fscript.org/
15:04 lypanov ooo
15:04 lypanov stevan: thx for the link. shall test this out tonight
15:04 stevan :)
15:05 * stevan thinks #perl6 should start authoring papers
15:05 lypanov http://www.fscript.org/news.htm
15:05 lypanov yum
15:05 putter caution - I just now svn up, and make broke on 8801.  ext/Locale-KeyedText makefile issue.
15:05 Juerd stevan: Just dump IRC logs ;)
15:05 Juerd stevan: Publish those.
15:06 stevan Juerd: but its not a *real* paper unless its formatted with LaTeX :P
15:07 Juerd stevan: \begin{verbatim}
15:08 svnbot6 r8803 | audreyt++ | * operators/binding/scalars.t: chase the change that restricts
15:08 svnbot6 r8803 | audreyt++ |   $CALLER::a to only see $a declared as "env" in caller's scope.
15:08 putter ooo, pyinjector looks neat.  (top of news.htm)
15:08 * stevan awards Juerd a PhD from the University of Perl 6
15:08 Juerd Woohoo!
15:09 * Juerd orders new business cards immediately.
15:09 putter :)
15:10 * Juerd wraps a verbatim block around this part of the IRC log, prints it, and frames it.
15:10 putter lol
15:10 stevan :D
15:10 svnbot6 r8804 | audreyt++ | * inherit_from_role.t: todo<feature> all 4 subtests as those
15:10 svnbot6 r8804 | audreyt++ |   depends on working Roles in the metamodel.
15:10 Juerd What use is a PhD without a certificate? :)
15:11 binary42 You will need to generate a References section though. Quick get all the host names!
15:11 stevan yes, that all important "peice of paper" :)
15:11 Juerd binary42: The references are mentioned in angle brackets just after each time stamp.
15:12 binary42 but how will I go about looking up more information about that source without something more that a name?
15:12 Juerd Nicknames are more stable and identifying than hostnames :)
15:12 Juerd (culturally)
15:12 Juerd binary42: This paper is dynamic. You can join and participate at any time.
15:12 * binary42 waves to the future LtU community.
15:13 svnbot6 r8805 | audreyt++ | * data_types/num.t: chase S02's more restricted definition
15:13 svnbot6 r8805 | audreyt++ |   of underscores between numeral digits; now multiple underscores
15:13 svnbot6 r8805 | audreyt++ |   are not ok, and neither are beginning/trailing underscores.
15:13 Juerd binary42: So if you think some information is lacking, you can ask the authors and it'll automatically update! :)
15:19 lypanov putter: very (pyinjector)
15:21 rafl Juerd: Do you have some copies of the s:g/5/6/; shirts? If yes, can you bring one of them to fosdem for me? :-)
15:23 Juerd rafl: No, none
15:24 Juerd I haven't even seen a cafepress one yet
15:24 rafl :-(
15:24 Juerd As far as I know, Audrey is the only one on this planet who already has them :)
15:24 rafl I think it would be a good idea to bring some of them to GPW.
15:25 Juerd I agree, but I don't like the financial risk, and the lots of work to ship shirts, and that's why I chose cafepress.
15:25 lypanov rafl: hehe. neat tshirt idea
15:25 Juerd I can have them mass produced much cheaper than Cafepress.
15:26 Juerd But I'd first need some assurance that they'd be sold, 'cause I don't want more than two of them in my own wardrobe :)
15:27 Juerd (Approx EUR 13 per shirt, high quality shirt and screenprinting)
15:32 audreyt EUR 6~7 here :)
15:32 Juerd Wowie
15:32 audreyt (for the perl6 timeline short you have)
15:32 audreyt s/short/shirt/
15:32 Juerd audreyt: Are black shirts an option?
15:32 Juerd (That fits better with the cryptic nature of s:g/5/6/;, in my opinion)
15:33 audreyt I can ask, probably yes
15:33 Juerd Neat. At that rate, I don't mind getting a few
15:33 audreyt maybe I should print a bunch and bring it to osdc/gpw
15:33 Juerd That'd be great, I think
15:33 Juerd See also my p6l post; consider replying if you want to do this
15:34 Juerd Have to run; afk
15:35 svnbot6 r8806 | audreyt++ | * change the "sub *foo" in Prelude.pm into "sub foo is builtin",
15:35 svnbot6 r8806 | audreyt++ |   and rework Scalar::as etc into multis.
15:35 svnbot6 r8806 | audreyt++ |   That makes sprintf_and_as.t pass.
15:40 svnbot6 r8807 | putter++ | :todo<bug>ed all t/pugsbugs tests which are non-regression failures.  That is, failing tests added since r7520 aka 6.2.10.
15:40 svnbot6 r8807 | putter++ | As a result, t/pugsbugs is now entirely clear of failures.
15:41 audreyt heh.
15:41 hexmode joined perl6
15:42 audreyt in that case, maybe rename the all-pass-without-todo parts of t/pugsbugs/*.t to the correctly-named subdirs?
15:42 putter audreyt: not that I don't enjoy and appreciate your presence, but... why aren't you asleep? ;)
15:42 audreyt that's a good question
15:43 audreyt I don't have good reasons
15:43 * audreyt vanishes in a puff of logic
15:43 * putter dusts hands
15:44 cognominal joined perl6
15:53 Eimi joined perl6
15:55 vel joined perl6
15:55 DaGo joined perl6
15:56 Eimi joined perl6
15:58 vel joined perl6
15:58 putter So, now we have a shift todo list of: more follow-up changelogging; move all-green files out of t/pugsbugs/ (but not rules_with_embedded_parrot.t I think);  Reading suggestions: "Hybrid Type Checking"(audreyt), "Types For Modules"(stevan).
15:59 putter Anyone want to tackle changelogging?
16:01 putter from ./ChangeLog: ** to r8657 - needs editing ** XXX big things not mentioned here: - objectspace / metamodel - PILN - sixpan / JIB - PIL2JS
16:04 vel joined perl6
16:04 putter so three distinct tasks/task-sets:  1- read through svn log -r8658:HEAD , adding entries to ChangeLog.  You don't have to do the whole thing, just raise the ** to r8NNN **;  2- edit/clean what's already there; 3- write lines for some of the "big things not mentioned".  Again, with no need to do all of them, just make progress.
16:05 putter Volunteers encouraged.
16:05 putter I'll start moving files out of pugsbugs, unless someone else wants that.
16:06 putter None of these should repair or break anything, so if someone wanted to run a smoke on HEAD, and smokeserve it, now would seem a good time.
16:09 putter helloooOOOOooo.  there is someone else besides me around here isn't there?  ;)
16:11 masak :)
16:11 putter Juerd: how about ChangeLog'ing svn log -r8658:8675?  seventeen measly log entries, most of which can no doubt be ignored.
16:12 putter hi masak :)  got a few spare cycles.  five minute chunks fine.  audreyt left a list of a couple of things she'd like done this "shift", while she sleeps.  game?
16:13 vel joined perl6
16:14 putter ie, t/pugsbugs/parsing_my.t is no longer failing.  so how about check that the tests appear in the usual my test files, or copy them over, and svn rm parsing_my.t
16:16 putter we can all use http://m19s28.vlinux.de/iblech/stuff/pugs-s​mokes/pugs-smoke-6.2.10-r8805-freebsd-norma​l--1138377610-1707--8984-8769-215-1394-921-​0--0ae404ac7168849a9ec56a90984c13c1.html  to see which pugsbugs tests are all light-green.
16:18 elmex joined perl6
16:20 vel joined perl6
16:20 iblechbot joined perl6
16:22 putter elmex, vel: got five minutes and commit bits?  like to knock off one of the pre-release todo items?
16:24 avar cool s:g/5/5/ t-shirt
16:26 elmex ?
16:26 elmex putter: ??
16:27 PerlJam avar: why would anyone want a no-op shirt like that?  ;)
16:28 avar ?eval $x;
16:28 evalbot_8801 is now known as evalbot_8807
16:28 evalbot_8807 Error: Undeclared variable: "$x"
16:28 avar ?eval my $x = "aaa"; $x ~~ s:g/a/b/; $x
16:28 evalbot_8807 \"bbb"
16:28 avar ?eval my $x = "aaa"; $x ~~ s:xg/a/b/; $x
16:28 evalbot_8807 \"baa"
16:29 avar ?eval my $x = "aaa"; $x ~~ s:gx/a/b/; $x
16:29 evalbot_8807 \"baa"
16:29 avar odd
16:29 avar what does x do now?
16:29 putter elmex: do you have permissions to edit pugs files?  would you like to spend 5 min helping toward the release?
16:29 putter :)
16:30 elmex hm, i don't know, i guess i checked in a test around 1 year ago
16:30 putter if the latter but not the former, can fix the former now...
16:30 putter great!
16:31 elmex but i've no idea where my checkout is
16:32 tewk putter:  I can run a smoke if you need it.
16:32 putter one task is to "look at a test in pugsbugs/ which is now all happy, say t/pugsbugs/postincrement_in_subscripts.t, make sure the test inside of it is present in whatever file usually tests such things (or copy it over), and svn rm the pugsbugs file.  pugsbugs is full of files for things which are no longer bugs...
16:34 putter elmex: just  svn co http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/    openfoundry is being fast today, so no problem!
16:34 elmex it's just that i don't really have time right now
16:35 putter tewk: that would be great!  and did you see the todo list back a 1/2 hour or so?
16:35 tewk I'll go look
16:36 putter re ChangeLog, gaal says in the r8658 log
16:36 putter  ChangeLog towards release - got to r8131; doesn't include objectspace stuff
16:37 putter so there's a ways to go.  could do svn log -r8131:8150 ! :)
16:37 putter tewk++
16:38 elmex putter++
16:38 elmex elmex--
16:40 putter http://colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_log/p​erl6?date=2006-01-27,Fri&amp;sel=701#l1034
16:41 putter elmex: why elmex - - ?
16:41 * putter puzzled
16:45 tewk elmex is a little hard on on him/herself 09:23 < elmex> it's just that i don't really have time right now,     hence - -
16:45 elmex because i'm coding perl5 right now
16:47 svnbot6 r8808 | putter++ | Added some blank lines between the current release and the finished entry for the last one.
16:48 putter ach, that's fine.  pugs is a long haul thing.  plenty of ongoing opportunities to contribute.  new TASKS file. :)   I'm just trying to stir up activity.
16:49 tewk putter++ stirring up activity
16:51 elmex perl6 seems like a long haul thing too
16:55 vell joined perl6
16:58 putter tewk: thanks.  :)  when audreyt has "things she would like to see done" which we can do, it seems very worth while getting them done, so she can tackle the harder bits.
16:58 svnbot6 r8809 | putter++ | Deleted the now working t/pugsbugs/parsing_lexical_code_vars.t, moving its test to t/var/my.t.
17:00 putter elmex: re p6, yeah, but I suspect we are seeing the slowest period right about now.  with the piln switch, I suspect there will be a cascade of "oh, now that works so we can do that, and now that works so we can do that, and now...".  with associated increase in attention and personnel.
17:01 ycheng joined perl6
17:01 * putter looks at t/pugsbugs/parsing_if.t, maybe some ChangeLog next if someone doesnt beat me to it.
17:13 tewk putter: where should pugsbugs/postincrement_in_subscripts.t go ?
17:13 putter tewk: looking...
17:13 svnbot6 r8810 | putter++ | Deleted the now working t/pugsbugs/parsing_if.t .  One test was added to t/statements/if.t. A second was already there.  The third was an always working test, a minor variation, which was present only for contrast - so it was discarded.
17:14 putter so candidates are operators, arrays, and parsing...
17:15 theorbtwo Put it in array-derefence, with a comment in postinc, or vice-versa?
17:15 putter reading the test more closely, it looks like it was an array issue...
17:17 tewk there is t/builtins/arrays
17:18 putter oh, I forgot step one.  find . |grep -v svn|xargs grep ']++'  ... there are already similar tests in t/operators/inc.t so that likely the best place.
17:19 putter err, find t/ ...
17:19 putter theorbtwo: is there a postinc somewhere?  checking...
17:20 theorbtwo t/operators/inc.t sounds about right for that.
17:20 * theorbtwo was just guessing.
17:20 putter ah.  :)  maybe just inc.t.
17:20 eric256 joined perl6
17:20 * putter wonders how much cross referencing is going on...
17:20 eric256 left perl6
17:23 putter so a little bit, but not a lot.  mostly "moved this" comments.
17:24 * putter wonders if the current test organization/tech can survive another 2x or 3x of size and still be manageable.  maybe with Test::Base??
17:25 theorbtwo Putter: I don't think it's manageable now.
17:25 putter tewk++ theorbtwo++
17:25 putter ;)
17:25 putter yeah
17:26 putter have there being thoughts on how to proceed?  Test::Base?  a test generator?
17:26 putter something else?
17:26 * putter tries to think of the largest language validation suite he has ever seen... (reasoning that p6's will have to be larger;)
17:27 putter theorbtwo: in what way(s) is it not manageable?
17:28 theorbtwo "I found a problem, is there a test for it?"  "I have no idea."
17:28 theorbtwo "Let me do a test run..." <three hours later> ...
17:28 putter todo item: check out scala and slate and see what they are doing test wise.  also pypy.  mono?
17:29 putter :)
17:29 theorbtwo The kennel idea is a very good one -- that is, be able to track the history of a purticular test -- when it started succeeding or failing.
17:29 vel joined perl6
17:32 putter so better organization... maybe an index?  or a "table of contents"? giving a decision tree for what goes where?  something else?
17:33 putter and... the ability to do a quick check, rather than a full "all the edge cases anyone has ever thought of" test run, to get faster feedback?
17:34 putter and something like the... mumble... test failure tracking system.  tinderbox?
17:37 theorbtwo Tinderbox would be kind of cool, in a way.
17:37 theorbtwo More a system of reporting in semi-realtime changes in tests.
17:38 theorbtwo <tinderbot6> t/foo/bar/baz.t # 26 "Frobble's correctly" failed between r2743 and r2746 -- blame theorbtwo or putter!
17:38 theorbtwo (Tinderbox just tracks if it still compiles.)
17:47 putter yeah.  good point.
17:48 putter actually, the whole "blame" aspect doesnt quite fit, since we're find with folks breaking the build.  but knowing the rNNNN number would be great
17:48 hexmode joined perl6
17:48 Juerd putter: query?
17:48 Juerd Oh, I'm not identified yet
17:49 Juerd Fucking freenode
17:50 theorbtwo My thinking was that it'd always be working on the latest thing.  If there's a new checkin in the middle of building, the build is killed, svn up, restart building.
17:50 theorbtwo If it's killed partway through a test run, it can report thus far.
17:50 putter hi Juerd, ralf
17:50 putter http://colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_log/p​erl6?date=2006-01-27,Fri&amp;sel=701#l1034
17:51 theorbtwo Also it'd possibly be nice for it to be able to automatically handle pugsbugs.
17:52 theorbtwo That is, there should never be actual tests in pugsbugs, just symlinks to tests that have recently been failing.
17:52 brentdax joined perl6
17:52 putter some of the pugsbugs have been done (but not all.  I think tewk is working on that?)
17:52 rafl Who's ralf?
17:53 putter no progress yet on the ChangeLog.  note we're up to r8131 I think, rather than the much later rev I mentioned above.
17:53 putter oooops.  sorry.  typo.
17:53 * putter blushes
17:54 * rafl will do changelogging about JIB/sixpan after getting something to eat.
17:54 putter awesome. :)
17:56 * putter reviews t/README to see what exactly pugsbugs is...
17:57 putter doesnt mention it.  a "audreyt please fix this" directory? ;)  a "this one is getting in the way more than usual"? something else?
18:01 jdv79 joined perl6
18:04 putter Oh, no, I was right the first time.  The ChangeLog is up to r8657.  gaal++
18:05 rantanplan_ joined perl6
18:12 putter tewk: are you still plugging away on postincrement_in_subscripts.t ?
18:12 svnbot6 r8811 | putter++ | ChangeLog up to r8670.  Hey, that was easy!
18:18 putter bbiab
18:20 tewk putter: got distracted, I can move it over.
18:21 cPbrian is now known as br4in
18:30 putter great
18:31 putter thanks tewk.  after lunch, I'll try to clean up whatever hasn't been gotten to.
18:32 putter bbl
18:34 bernhard joined perl6
18:36 svnbot6 r8812 | tewk++ | t/pugsbugs/postincrement_in_subscripts.t moved to t/operators/inc.t
18:43 Khisanth joined perl6
19:08 kolibrie I built pugs and am now getting './pugs: error while loading shared libraries: libparrot.so.0.4.1: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory'
19:08 kolibrie I have parrot/blib/lib/libparrot.so.0.4.1
19:08 kolibrie and /usr/local/lib/libparrot.so.0.4.1
19:08 kolibrie any ideas what I need to do so they are seen?
19:10 rafl kolibrie: What does ldd pugs give you?
19:11 kolibrie rafl: lld: command not found
19:11 kolibrie od
19:11 kolibrie oh
19:11 rafl ldd, not lld
19:11 PerlJam kolibrie: ldd, not lld :)
19:12 PerlJam kolibrie: also, perhaps you need to set your LD_LIBRARY_PATH to the appropriate directory(ies)
19:12 kolibrie ok, that got something.  What is relevant?
19:12 kolibrie libparrot.so.0.4.1 => not found
19:13 rafl Or add /usr/local/lib to /etc/ld.so.conf
19:13 kolibrie hmm, everything else is in /lib, not local/lib
19:14 rafl kolibrie: Update ld.so.conf or install parrot into /usr instead of /usr/local.
19:15 kolibrie rafl: ok, /etc/ld.so.conf updated
19:15 kolibrie how do I make it take effect?
19:20 rafl kolibrie: ldconfig
19:21 nnunley joined perl6
19:22 kolibrie rafl: ahh, much better.  Thank you
19:22 kolibrie PerlJam: and thank you, too
19:22 sahadev joined perl6
19:29 khisanth_ joined perl6
19:30 khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth
19:30 jp-autark joined perl6
19:33 khisanth_ joined perl6
19:43 khisanth_ joined perl6
19:44 khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth
19:49 svnbot6 r8813 | putter++ | TASKS+=1  Explore how other langauges are structuring their validation tests.
19:49 svnbot6 r8814 | kolibrie++ | small maintenance to keep this example running
19:58 svnbot6 r8815 | putter++ | Moved the passing t/pugsbugs/numbered-match-variable.t file to t/rules/numbered_match_variable.t.
19:59 Cryptic_K joined perl6
20:02 lypanov joined perl6
20:10 svnbot6 r8816 | putter++ | Deleted the now working t/pugsbugs/parsing_do_my.t.  Tests moved to t/var/my.t.
20:19 svnbot6 r8817 | putter++ | Deleted the now working t/pugsbugs/parsing_my.t.  Test moved to t/var/my.t.
20:20 putter I think that's it for passing pugsbugs files.
20:21 dduncan joined perl6
20:36 putter I'm going to start on ChangeLog.  Doing it chunks.  Anyone who wants to take over, or work in parallel, that would be great.
20:42 avar putter: generate it from commit messages?
20:46 svnbot6 r8818 | putter++ | ChangeLog to r8700.
20:46 putter avar: yes! :)   svn log -v -r8NNN:8MMM > deleteme
20:47 putter usually one doesnt actually have to look at the patch.  unless the log entry is a puzzle.
20:47 hexmode joined perl6
20:48 putter want to take r8700:8730 and I'll take r8730:8760 ?
20:50 putter the "where to put it in ChangeLog" is pretty simple, there's a section for t/ docs/ examples/, another for misc/, another for ext/, and the mainstuff gets broken down as feature or fix, and within those, pugs or js.
20:50 avar me?
20:51 putter the what to say is easy to, something simple, that doesnt lose much information.  can be crufty too, as there will be a cleanup pass.
20:51 putter avar: ya, you :)
20:51 dduncan allo
20:51 putter hey dduncan
20:51 dduncan is changelogging all that's left to do?
20:51 putter like to help ChangeLog'ing
20:52 stevan joined perl6
20:52 avar I'm uh busy .. doing nothing whatsoever;)
20:52 putter nope, but its the last of audreyt's 'hings she'd like to see done while she slept'.
20:53 putter ext/ also needs to be worked through
20:54 dduncan for my part, I've completely changelogged my ext/ modules
20:55 dduncan and of course, this is a delta since 6.2.10, 4-5 months ago
20:55 putter oh, I meant debugging the rest of the failing ext/ modules. ;)
20:55 dduncan the problem is "no such method/sub" errors
20:56 dduncan which I think may be an omission in pugs itself not handling private ones
20:56 putter right
20:56 dduncan at least that's the case with my own ext/ modules, though mine don't fail tests because they only test for compiling right now
20:57 putter would you like to share in bringing the ChangeLog up to date.  split with you alternate blocks of 50 revs?
20:58 dduncan perhaps ... though unless the solution is fixing pugs, I'm more inclined to track down ext/ and fix or todo the failures there
20:58 dduncan maybe
20:58 dduncan as I recall about the changelog
20:58 dduncan a pass was done through it recently
20:59 avarab joined perl6
20:59 dduncan and certain sections were skipped as they should be done by people more intimitely aware of the sections they referred to
20:59 vike joined perl6
20:59 * putter starts on -r8700:8750 .   something like 120 revs to go after that.
21:00 putter yep.  but the scan has a ways to go before it reaches present.  about 200 revs to go.
21:01 dduncan hm, I'm getting a "build failed" on my last make ...
21:01 dduncan will try again
21:05 putter i had a svn up; make failure.  a rebuild from scratch worked.
21:06 pasteling "dduncan" at 24.108.164.7 pasted "link failure on 'make', undefined yaml symbols" (289 lines, 16.9K) at http://sial.org/pbot/15636
21:06 dduncan did you get the same error?
21:07 dduncan also, by "from scratch", do you mean with a 'make realclean' in the middle?
21:07 vike left perl6
21:08 putter no.  I only have two modes, simple make, and blow away the entire directory, and literally start from scratch.
21:08 putter s/tory, and/tory and/
21:09 dduncan are all the normal t/ passing or skipping now, with only ext/ left?
21:10 putter that (the paste) does look like what I saw.
21:10 dduncan and you fixed it with a blow-away
21:10 putter re tests, don't know.  audreyt did assorted commits, but I don't think I've seen a smoke on the other side.
21:12 kolibrie dduncan: I did a make realclean and build successfully today
21:13 putter i just (cd SVN/pugs; tar cf - .)|(cd pugsxNN; tar xf -)    or something similar
21:13 putter but a make clean of some sort should also do it, unless that's borked too.
21:13 dduncan well, I'll do a clean rebuild and smoke now ... will take about 3 hours
21:13 dduncan okay
21:14 dduncan blow away for me works like this
21:14 dduncan an advantage of svk is that the whole thing is backed up on my own machine, so no network pulls necessary
21:14 stennie joined perl6
21:14 dduncan I just cd to the root pugs directory, delete all its contents, then svk revert -R it
21:15 Debolaz2 joined perl6
21:15 integral joined perl6
21:15 dduncan and it restores from the svn server based backup on my machine
21:17 putter I should be able to one a bit faster than that.  we'll see.  oh, drat.  oh well, I'm going to get a make test too. ;)
21:17 putter svk++
21:18 dduncan that said, I'll try the less severe 'make realclean' first
21:24 avarab is now known as avar
21:29 _SamB_ joined perl6
21:32 _SamB_ is now known as SamB
21:43 putter dduncan: nope, there are still core failures.  split, arglist, array_mmd, array_ref, ...
21:43 svnbot6 r8819 | putter++ | ChangeLog to r8750.
21:44 * putter takes a break from ChangeLog'ing
21:46 putter stevan: could you do the ChangeLog object model entry(ies)?
21:48 putter oh, wow.  the phrase "best verification suite" appears nowhere in the googleable universe.
21:55 stevan putter: i will try, I am somewhat short on tuits lately
21:55 Juerd Everyone is :(
21:59 lisppaste3 joined perl6
22:08 lisppaste3 joined perl6
22:22 wolverian hmm, slate looks interesting
22:23 putter yes, doesn't it
22:23 putter slate on p6 anyone?  p6 on slate?
22:24 nnunley More, porting mobius is interesting.
22:24 nnunley And perhaps the pmd stuff for multiple dispatch.
22:24 nnunley Slate itself is a little bit of a pain to program in, IMNSHO.
22:31 dduncan now starting a smoke of r1819
22:31 dduncan I mean, 8819
22:32 dduncan it should be done in about 2 hours
22:37 soam joined perl6
22:45 putter mobius is slate's implementation.  vm.  http://slate.tunes.org/doc/
22:45 putter nnunley: what didn't you like about programming in slate?
22:52 * putter shakes out his brain.  ada 95 test suite.  eeps.  http://archive.adaic.com/com​pilers/acvc/95acvc/acvc2_3/
23:00 Shachaf left perl6
23:05 drbean joined perl6
23:12 Cryptic_K joined perl6
23:25 soam left perl6
23:25 avar joined perl6
23:28 lightstep joined perl6
23:31 r0nny joined perl6
23:32 putter does apple still use : as a path sepaeator?
23:34 * putter notes http://svn.myrealbox.com/vie​wcvs/trunk/mcs/class/corlib/  is much clearer than the equivalent would be in p5, because a hierarchical name need not be expressed hierarchically in the file system.
23:35 putter hmm, though here it may just be the equivalent of PIL-Run (aka PIL::Run), a name for humans not understood by the system.  dont know (mono).
23:38 putter re apple, no.  osx is /
23:39 putter so, should we start permitting/using file names of the form mumble/Foo::Bar::Hee/frotz in the pugs distribution?
23:42 rafl What's the benefit from doing so?
23:44 putter flatter, unhidden, is clearer.   ls giving   Foo::Bar  Foo::Hee::Qux  Zim::Zog   rather than just  Foo Zim
23:46 putter dduncan: looks like my smoke ran faster.  r8818 is up as http://m19s28.vlinux.de/iblech/stuff/pugs-s​mokes/pugs-smoke-6.2.10-r8818-linux-normal-​-1138405399-4024--11017-10051-966-1192-1575​-0--8f7027653efa8aaca9b4e517b8d3430f.html
23:46 putter still lots of red.
23:46 putter rafl: no?
23:46 rafl putter: Sure that every single filesystem for every single platform we want to support can live with that?
23:47 putter no
23:47 putter especially if that includes pre osx apples.  macintosh.
23:47 rafl I don't even know what that includes. And I know even less about the filesystems. So I fear doint that.
23:48 rafl But what I would be interested in is a directory layout that supports multiple installed versions of a module.
23:49 putter yes.  essential.
23:50 putter I may be insufficiently risk averse because i _really_ dislike the Foo/Bar/Hee "smash stuff down across the filesystem" game.
23:50 Juerd rafl: Have you sent the CF?
23:51 putter CF?
23:51 Juerd Yes.
23:51 * putter saw "seen" for "sent".  thought it was a nifty new thing to look at.  never mind. ;)
23:52 Juerd Re filesystems, I once considered for a project of my own, to use Foo/Bar/Baz/0.13.foo kind of file names, with Foo/Bar/Baz/default being a symlink to the latest version.
23:52 rafl Juerd: Yes.
23:52 Juerd rafl: Okay; thanks. I hope it arrives before you do :)
23:53 rafl ;-)
23:53 Juerd 00:53 < putter> flatter, unhidden, is clearer.
23:53 putter Juerd: has there been any p6l discussion of this kind of thing?
23:54 Juerd Flatter isn't necessarily better. In fact, I think the opposite is true.
23:54 Juerd putter: Not that I know of.
23:54 rafl We should hack something together in docs/AES/, imho.
23:55 Juerd putter: I like the Foo/Bar.pm, and would dislike Foo::Bar.pm, because when it's Foo/Bar/Baz/Quux/Xyzzy, the use of "../Blah" makes life easier.
23:55 lightstep left perl6
23:55 Juerd I wouldn't even mind changing :: to / ;)
23:55 Juerd use Foo/Bar;
23:55 Juerd Foo/Bar/BAZ++;
23:55 Juerd (I *know* it's not possible)
23:56 rafl I also get along with Foo/Bar.pm quite well.
23:57 putter Juerd: if I have a lump of functionality Languages::Lisp::Other::Lisp1::OnPerl6, I'd like to have a directory of that name.  not a long dangling tail hanging off of the completely uninformative Languages/.  no?
23:57 Juerd putter: "tree"
23:57 Juerd putter: "find"
23:58 Juerd You can already get any view you want
23:58 Juerd Mapping one hierarchical structure to another just makes sense.
23:58 Juerd :: is the path separator
23:58 putter hey, we can file it under L/a/n/g/u/a/g/e/s/-/L/i/s/p/...  and the same tree/find argument still holds.  :-P
23:59 rafl Beside that it's faster on most file systems to have files seperated into directories over multiple levels than to put lots of files into a single dir.
23:59 putter (but not admittedly the hierarchy <-> hierarchy argument)

| Channels | #perl6 index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo | Niecza | Specs