Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-01-29

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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01:07 dduncan is sigwinch and stuff a new feature in readline?
01:07 putter joined perl6
01:07 dduncan perhaps audreyt and some of you have a newer readline version than I do
01:08 putter hi dduncan.  a fresh r8825 compiled for me.  checking libreadline...
01:10 dduncan I just reverted my Pugs.Shell to r8824, and it now compiles without trouble
01:11 putter i'm at 4.3, (hmm, and segfaulting :/  ah well - os upgrade coming soon).
01:11 dduncan so the r8825 is making some assumption that isn't true for my system
01:11 putter what was one of the undefined symbols?
01:11 dduncan backlog by about 3 hours
01:11 putter looking...
01:13 dduncan see http://colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_log/​perl6?date=2006-01-28,Sat&sel=357#l607
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01:16 putter hmm, rl_catch_signals is just an int.  is it defined in your /usr/include/readline/readline.h or equivalent?
01:23 putter the next question will be, is it defined in your libreadline.  eg, locate libreadline; then  strings /usr/lib/libreadline.4.2.so |grep rl_catch_signals   or some such.
01:28 putter it looks like rl_catch_signals is an 4.2'ism  - googling turns up config files which test for it separately...
01:28 putter exploring further...
01:28 dduncan my /usr/include/readline/readline.h doesn't have them
01:29 dduncan mine is $NetBSD: readline.h,v 1.11 2004/01/17 17:57:40 christos Exp $, copyright 1997
01:30 brentdax Rules are segfaulting right now.  Expected or no?
01:34 dduncan from my reading on the 'net, it seems that 10.4 is the first Mac OS X version to bundle readline, but online reports say it is buggy ... also, this library is used by a number of third party apps
01:35 dduncan see, for example, http://www.justatheory.com/computers/database​s/postgresql/howto_avoid_tigers_readline.html
01:35 avar olofyrla:~ avar$ locate readline.h
01:35 avar olofyrla:~ avar$
01:35 avar you mean bundled with the 10.4 dev tools I presume?
01:35 dduncan or that
01:36 dduncan I have 10.4.4, plus the devtools 2.0
01:37 dduncan it says XCode is 2.1, though I don't use that program ... mainly I installed the devtools to get cc and stuff
01:38 avar I love how they make you sign up for their developer network just to brag about them having 10 million developers or something
01:38 avar ..when you just need to dl a C compiler
01:39 dduncan in my case, the devtools were bundled with the retail Tiger dve
01:39 dduncan dvd
01:39 avar It's like those "vote for us to download" w4r3z websites I used to go to before I hit puberty
01:39 dduncan I think the devtools were always bundled with Mac OS X, so you don't have to download them
01:40 dduncan unless you want versions newer than came with the os
01:40 avar or I don't want to go digging around for some CD
01:40 dduncan I just install them when I install the OS and be done with it
01:41 avar I just throw the danm thing away and download debian, but each to his own I guess;)
01:44 putter dduncan: ok, so we're in threads (blech;) plus readline land.  hmm.  do we have the equivalent of a ./configure --without-readline option?
01:45 dduncan I don't exactly know
01:45 dduncan I know that some programs do
01:45 dduncan and even the file in question ...
01:45 dduncan has an ifdef regarding readline
01:45 putter that would be the fastest way to get you unstuck (well, no, the fastest would be to comment out Readline.setCatchSignals and the next line in Pugs/Shell.hs. ;)
01:45 dduncan Shell that is
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01:46 dduncan I just reverted Shell.hs, and that unstuck me
01:46 dduncan make is now successfully done
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01:47 putter yeah.  we dont (--wo-rl).  Makefile.PL just checks has_ghc_package('readline') and based on that -DPUGS_HAVE_READLINE.  though easy enough to add somthing if we go down that path.  let's see...
01:48 dduncan but Shell.hs and/or some pugs config file will have to be updated to account for Tiger having a readline, but that is too old or too wrong
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01:49 dduncan hm, there is something else I'll have to fix on my system too ...
01:50 dduncan the pugs tests are running about 3X slow again ...
01:51 luqui dduncan, when you start pugs shell, does it start instantly, or does it spend some time loading the prelude
01:51 dduncan just a minute
01:52 dduncan that would be the problem
01:52 dduncan oddly enough, lately running the pugs shell also causes a liteny of beeps
01:53 dduncan anyway, the prelude thing is easy enough to fix
01:56 putter dduncan: do you have some way of checking the version of your libreadline?  locate libreadline and see if it's called libreadline.N.N.so?
01:56 dduncan one minute ...
01:56 dduncan fyi, I did say what the top line of my readline.h was
01:56 * putter hypothesizes its 4.0 <= rev < 4.2 ... ;)
01:57 putter ?
01:58 dduncan in usr/lib it says libreadline.dylib without a version ... looking further
02:01 dduncan that file is a softlink pointing to libedit.2.dylib
02:01 dduncan implying it may not be a real readline
02:01 putter actually, if you found readline.h, it should have a RL_READLINE_VERSION in it..
02:02 dduncan it doesn't
02:02 dduncan it says /*$NetBSD: readline.h,v 1.11 2004/01/17 17:57:40 christos Exp $*/
02:02 dduncan at the top
02:02 dduncan anyway, I have to go for a bit
02:04 pasteling "dduncan" at 24.108.164.7 pasted "my whole /usr/include/readline/readline.h" (190 lines, 6.5K) at http://sial.org/pbot/15652
02:05 dduncan maybe that will help you
02:05 dduncan I have to go to dinner now
02:05 putter mmm, food.  ;)  cheers &
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02:21 putter dduncan: I assume you are _not_ using darwinports?  (that would raise some, apparently distinct, issues)
02:25 putter dduncan: did you compile ghc yourself, or use the binary from http://www.haskell.org/ghc/download_ghc_641.html ?
02:27 putter the latter explicitly requires libreadline.5.0.dylib.  as for the former...
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02:30 putter it's currently looking like tiger uses a netbsd readline.h (thanks to your paste); that netbsd maintains its own readline.h, and is not very systematic about it; tiger's is old, pre-dating the addition of rl_catch_signals ( http://archive.netbsd.se/?ml=netbsd-cu​rrent-users&amp;a=2005-04&amp;m=868285 );
02:32 putter ghc uses a simple "is it readline 4" ifdef (libraries/readline/System/Console/Readline.hsc); soo...
02:36 putter my working hypothesis is ghc is using a test which works fine if gnu readline has been directly installed, but not in the face of the complexity on tiger.  pugs simply uses ghc's conclusion (Makefile.PL's if(has_ghc_package('readline'))), so we lose.
02:38 putter the core problem for pugs is we don't have a way to ask if ghc has a _working_ readline.
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02:44 putter so it's in the log, the key line from the paste is /*$NetBSD: readline.h,v 1.11 2004/01/17 17:57:40 christos Exp $*/  
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02:44 dduncan putter,
02:45 dduncan I'm using the precompiled ghc from GHC-6.4.1.pkg.zip, linked to on the page you mentioned
02:45 dduncan I did not explicitly install libreadline first, though
02:46 dduncan I think I just assumed it was working when GHC executed and pugs otherwise worked, up to today
02:47 dduncan so now I just have to figure out where to get readline ...
02:48 putter right.  ok, I propose: add a PUGS_DONT_USE_READLINE environment variable check to Makefile.PL, and mention it in a tiger-specific INSTALL section.  the alternative is just to require tiger folks to install readline, and fail if they havent.
02:48 dduncan fyi, I was going to install the newer readline
02:48 dduncan as the way to fix the problem
02:49 dduncan assuming that doing so doesn't break something in OS X that depends on broken behaviour of the bundled one
02:49 putter right. :)  I guess I've moved on to the "fix the install problem dduncan turned up". ;)
02:50 putter how much of a barrier to entry is installing readline for the "average user who wants to run pugs"?
02:50 dduncan well, the options are either to add that switch, or make the newer readline a hard dependency of running pugs
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02:51 putter right.   what do you think?
02:51 dduncan hard to say
02:51 dduncan right now, I'm going to try and install readline, and see how difficult or not that is
02:51 dduncan I would probably need to install it anyway, since some other things like PostgreSQL would require it
02:52 putter ok, I'll add the flag.  its localized enough cruft.  the mere fact you are worrying about it suggests its a nontrivial item.
02:52 dduncan I know that readline is used by many things
02:52 dduncan but to be honest, from a user's point of view ...
02:53 dduncan I would prefer to install as little as possible in order to run pugs
02:54 Shillo dduncan: Plus, readline is strict-GPL. Kinda problem if you want something to be LGPL
02:54 Shillo ... or artistic.
02:54 dduncan would it be simpler for pugs to default to not using readline, and only use it if an environment variable is set?
02:55 dduncan that way, saavy users do a bit of extra work to gain extra functionality that most people don't need
02:55 putter on the other hand, I could just read more carefully.  Makefile.PL is already compiling a little test script to see if readline really works.  I'll just add the signal commands to the test script.  I'd re-underline the "note to self" which says "avoid tunnel vision when debugging", but that paragraph is already worn thru with underlines.  sigh.
02:56 dduncan and non-saavy users can do as little as possible
02:56 dduncan but if as you say there is a way to test this in Makefile.PL, then great, do that
02:56 dduncan and in fact I *won't* go to the trouble to upgrade readline
02:57 dduncan I assume your test will say that if readline is broken, then it will be as if it didn't exist at all
02:57 dduncan I will wait for your commit ...
03:06 putter dduncan: thanks.  I was just about to (belatedly) suggest that :)    edit done, testing...
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03:18 putter drat!  I forgot to end the "was taking far to long to write" log entry with dduncan++.
03:18 putter Belatedly, dduncan++.  Very.
03:18 svnbot6 r8826 | putter++ | Makefile.PL: The embedded haskell test program, which checks whether readline really works, now includes calls with the newly required (r8825) setCatchSignals and setCatchSigwinch calls.
03:18 svnbot6 r8826 | putter++ | The old test was passing on Mac OS X 10.4 Tiger, which doesn't support the new calls.
03:18 svnbot6 r8826 | putter++ | A result of all these changes is the average Tiger user, who hasn't installed readline herself (installation is suggested by the ghc download page), will no longer get the readline version of pugs.
03:20 putter dduncan: patch is in.  if you could check whether it properly fails, that would be great.  Makefile.PL should run as usual, and the resulting makefile should _not_ have -DPUGS_HAVE_READLINE in it.
03:20 dduncan I am downloading it now, but first I just changed my Shell.hs to the newest version
03:21 putter ah, good idea
03:22 dduncan fyi, rerunning the Makefile.PL does not spit out the "not installed" message
03:22 * putter thought mac os x was a linux.  what's it doing with a netbsd readline?  does it use the netbst signal system?  curious...
03:23 dduncan Mac OS X is derived from BSD, not Linux
03:23 dduncan its in the BSD family
03:23 dduncan by way of NextStep + OpenStep
03:23 putter "not installed" message?  is that something which was there previously?
03:23 putter ah.
03:24 dduncan what I mean is, it doesn't say disabled
03:24 dduncan oh wait, yes it does
03:24 putter oh.  that's not good.  oh, it does.  whew.
03:24 dduncan for some reason I expected it to come out before all the Writing makefile for ext/foo
03:24 dduncan but it came out after
03:25 putter it looks like Makefile.PL collects the warnings in a @warn list.
03:25 dduncan I've got the simplest possible pugs setup ... all optional extensions are turned off
03:26 dduncan no linking to haskell extensions, no readline, no perl 5, no parrot
03:26 dduncan currently on 'make'
03:27 putter well, you probably had readline before.  now you dont. :/
03:27 putter does the Makefile contain -DPUGS_HAVE_READLINE ?
03:27 dduncan I only switched to Tiger 7 days ago, so I'm used to not having it
03:27 putter ah
03:27 dduncan looking
03:28 putter nice to know NextStep wasn't a complete deadend.  nice system.
03:28 dduncan the text 'readline' is not in the makefile at all
03:28 putter yay
03:28 dduncan yes, Mac OS X has lots of NextStep goodness
03:29 Shillo G'night, all!
03:29 putter good night &
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03:29 dduncan the way that all native applications and frameworks are bundles of files, folders etc
03:29 dduncan the whole 'Cocoa' development api
03:29 dduncan which is the whole object-oriented api that NextStep started
03:29 dduncan in Objective-C
03:30 putter ah right
03:30 dduncan of course, what pugs and ghc is working with is beneath that, using the BSD api of mac os x, which is sideways of Cocoa
03:31 dduncan make has successfully compiled Pugs.Shell
03:31 putter woot.
03:31 dduncan thank you for your help
03:31 putter oh, thanks for finding the bug!
03:32 putter and debugging the bug!  (that sounds odd)
03:32 putter if you debug a bug, what have you got?
03:33 putter dduncan: should we keep all the cruft in INSTALL re "until 6.4.1 comes out", or simply say, like x64_64, mac requires 6.4.1 ?
03:34 dduncan I'm using 6.4.1
03:34 putter s/mac/gcc4.0 and mac/
03:34 dduncan and have been since september
03:34 dduncan apparently 6.4.1 is the first version that works properly with Tiger
03:35 dduncan 6.2.2 and 6.4.0 work with Panther
03:35 dduncan which is where I started
03:36 putter right.  sorry - when working the last problem, I noticed INSTALL was still crufty, providing "until 6.4.1 comes out" workarounds.  which should now no longer be needed.  I'm wondering if I can just rip it out, whether you think it still has some value, and should say "6.4.1 recommended.  But if you don't, ...<existing cruft>"
03:37 dduncan 6.4.1 has been out for 4 full months now ... it should be a hard requirement for pugs, such that the Makefile.PL refuses to proceed without it
03:38 dduncan we ditched 6.2.x when keeping that was holding us back, we can do the same with 6.4.0
03:39 putter ok, editing...
03:41 putter oh, wait.  a hard, universal, requirement?  hmm.
03:41 * putter wonders if that's an audreyt call... eh, I'll do it as a separate patch.
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03:44 svnbot6 r8827 | putter++ | INSTALL: Simplified "until GHC 6.4.1 comes out" caveats for gcc 4.0.  Now that 6.4.1 has been out for a while.
03:45 dduncan well, what good reason would someone install 6.4.0 and not 6.4.1?
03:45 dduncan unlike perl 5, ghc is usually not bundled with a system
03:45 dduncan people have to install it anyway
03:45 obra often people install packaged software
03:45 dduncan yes
03:46 dduncan and ghc 6.4.1 has been in package form for many months
03:46 obra And, well, packages aren't 100% up to date.
03:46 obra for every platform?
03:46 obra Don't be too cavalier with forcing people to latest versions.
03:46 dduncan I would think that any platform having a 6.4.0 package also has a 6.4.1 package
03:46 obra I'd check that assumption before possibly freezing people out
03:47 dduncan we already froze 6.2.x out
03:47 obra Bring it up on the mailinglist and see if it'll screw people over?
03:48 dduncan okay
03:48 obra Cool
03:52 putter ok, I'll sit on the Makefile.PL patch.  Both it and INSTALL would be simplified by making 6.4.1 a hard dependency.
03:52 putter audreyt: thoughts?
03:53 dduncan okay, the p6c message is away
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03:53 putter dduncan++
03:53 putter Thanks, that was a fun exercise. :)
03:54 dduncan putter, if you want, you can send a reply to p6c saying you already have a patch ready and are waiting for the good word
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03:55 dduncan putter, is 8827 just documentation/comment changes?
03:55 putter na, it's pretty trivial.  besides, separating policy from mechanism is always a good call.  this is a policy question.
03:55 putter yes
03:56 putter I removed the notes on how to jump through hoops until 6.4.1 is available.
03:59 putter s/always/usually/
04:08 * putter runs a smoke to see the ext/ fixes...
04:08 dduncan about 5 distros were affected by what I did yesterday, there are a half dozen or so left to fix
04:09 putter yay :)
04:10 * putter seriously underestimated how long this release process would take.
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04:10 dduncan this is certainly the longest releast yet ... about 4 months
04:11 luqui dduncan, why should ghc-6.4.1 be minimum?
04:11 luqui is there a feature we're using
04:11 luqui which isn't in 6.4.0?
04:11 dduncan it simplifies things for people using GCC 4
04:11 dduncan 6.4.0 doesn't work with gcc 4
04:11 putter audreyt: once the release is out the door, it might be fun to have another conversation/interview, regards what the next steps are, what exactly they involve, and so on.
04:11 luqui dduncan, so?
04:11 luqui people who aren't using gcc 4 can still use 6.4.0
04:11 dduncan so people with that will have to explicitly say to use a different version when compiling, rather than the default action working
04:12 dduncan you misunderstand
04:12 dduncan ghc 6.4.1 works with both gcc 3.3 and 4.0
04:12 dduncan ghc 6.4.0 works with only gcc 3.3 and not 4.0
04:12 luqui yeah, I understand that
04:13 putter luqui: the set of things which require 6.4.1, and thus have to be documented/tested separately, are gcc4.0 and thus Tiger, x86_64, embedded parrot, and... I think that's it.
04:13 dduncan if ghc 6.4.1 is required, then it doesn't matter what gcc people have
04:13 luqui so the minimum requirements seem to be: gcc 4.0 and ghc 6.4.1 _or_ gcc 3.3 and ghc 6.4.0
04:13 luqui that's logic that can easily be coded in a configure script if necessary
04:13 luqui I don't think *requiring* the installation of ghc 6.4.1 is making anyone's life easier
04:14 putter Oh, maybe not embedded parrot.  I'm confused.  Though my embedded parrot is also not working.  But that's a separate issue ;)
04:14 dduncan the current minimum requirements are (any gcc and ghc 6.4.1) or (gcc 3.3 and below and ghc 6.4.0)
04:14 luqui dduncan, and what's wrong with that?
04:14 dduncan requiring ghc 6.4.1 means not requiring gcc 3.3
04:14 dduncan its a trade off
04:14 luqui so?
04:15 luqui the reason you bump the required version is not to save yourself a couple words in documentation
04:15 dduncan since more people have gcc pre-installed, you have a net result that fewer people have to change something for pugs to work
04:15 luqui if we find a feature that ghc 6.4.1 has that pugs needs, then we can bump the minimum
04:15 luqui dduncan, but what about people who already have ghc 6.4.0
04:16 dduncan what systems have ghc pre-installed?
04:16 dduncan wouldn't people with it have done it themselves?
04:16 luqui just a sec
04:16 dduncan if they could do it once, doing it again is easy
04:16 dduncan if they've never done it, then doing it once is hard
04:17 dduncan but if they've never installed it manually, they probably don't have it
04:17 dduncan s/manually/explicitly/
04:20 pasteling Someone at 67.165.197.242 pasted "new ghc policy requires strictly more work" (13 lines, 449B) at http://sial.org/pbot/15654
04:20 luqui in that table, where I classify all users according to their status
04:20 luqui I can't find a single case where the new policy is less work
04:20 putter lol
04:21 dduncan what if you're only installed version of gcc is 4.0?
04:21 luqui that's the second line of those tables
04:21 dduncan then you have to install 3.3, which is more work
04:21 luqui no, you install ghc 4.1
04:21 luqui er, 6.4.1
04:23 putter luqui: in a production environment, I'd agree with you whole heartedly.  In an experimental system like pugs, the question is whether the value of simplicity and clarity wins out.  the lower complexity.  having, at least until 6.5 comes out, only one version of ghc to care about.
04:24 luqui putter, well, like I said, if we find a feature of ghc 6.4.1 that we think we need
04:24 luqui then by all means, increase
04:24 luqui but atm, 6.4.0 works fine for anyone who has gcc 3.3
04:24 * putter wonders if we're having a conversation about order-1 (ie, 1-3) or order 10 (ie, 3 to 30) users. ;)
04:25 putter and doesnt have 64bit.
04:25 luqui well, I have gcc 3.3 and ghc 6.4.0
04:25 luqui so it's at least one user
04:25 luqui :-)
04:25 dduncan I note that the recommended process for installing ghc is using a binary package, and doing so only takes a few minutes ... how much trouble is that?
04:25 dduncan or do you do yours from source?
04:25 luqui I build mine from source
04:26 dduncan okay then
04:26 dduncan how long does that take?
04:26 luqui a long long time
04:26 dduncan I hear quite awhile ... days
04:26 luqui (i think last time it took about six hours)
04:26 putter not really the point.  the question luqui is asking is, what is purchased by requiring this effort of mine.  if the answer is a smaller INSTALL file, then it probably isnt worth it.
04:26 dduncan why did you go that route rather than the binary?
04:26 luqui putter, exactly
04:27 luqui dduncan, dunno. for fun?  there's really no reason I couldn't install the binary.  I'm just arguing my point.
04:28 luqui pugs isn't itself using any features particular to ghc 6.4.1, so why not enable a 1% increase in user base (even though 1% of the user base is less than one person :-)
04:28 luqui and haskell is a lazy language.  so we should probably have a lazy upgrade policy, too :-)
04:29 luqui (what a strong argument!)
04:29 dduncan are there any features that pugs would desire to use but isn't due to backwards compatability?
04:29 luqui I think 6.4.1 was a bugfix release
04:29 luqui I'm not sure though
04:29 * putter tries to remember where the debian package stats are.  now curious as to how many people are using pugs.  and to provide a baseline for comparison with downloads of the next version.
04:29 dduncan and none of those bugs actually cause us trouble?
04:29 luqui pugs works for me :-)
04:30 putter luqui: re (what a strong argument!), and a funny one too!   In a -Ofun environment, that carries extra weight. ;)
04:34 putter dduncan: you and I need 6.4.1 (tiger, x86_64).  luqui doesn't (everything else).  a hard requirement of 6.4.1 is zero work for us.  luqui is standing in for everyone on everything else, and saying "why are you doing this to us???". ;)
04:35 putter as for the bugs, it's quite possible luqui will see bugs that we don't.  if that becomes an issue debugging pugs, then that will be an argument for a hard requirement.
04:35 putter s/will see/is seeing/
04:38 audreyt dduncan: did the readline shell segfault for your (or  cause infinite repetitions, etc) ?
04:38 audreyt s/your/your environment/
04:38 audreyt dduncan: that is, before my sigwinch change
04:38 dduncan I'll check
04:38 dduncan putter did fix the build though
04:38 audreyt yup, but I wonder if it makes sense to restore readline for you
04:39 dduncan oh, and running pugs shell no longer makes all those beeping sounds
04:39 audreyt aha
04:39 dduncan like from trying to output an unprintable character
04:39 audreyt so you _did_ run into that bug
04:39 audreyt with the netbsd readline
04:39 putter so far, I don't think there has been a sign of it.  though it may be hidden in some of the things which have been mentioned as issues, like compilation speed/space, or embedding problems.  no one asks/says which version of ghc is being used, because we haven't yet noted a need to be sensitive to that.
04:39 putter which isnt to say we aren't currently being burned by it.  which is the simplicity argument.
04:39 dduncan I did run into the beeping since a day ago, and now it is gone'
04:39 audreyt hm, since a day ago.
04:40 dduncan I updated to Tiger 7 days ago
04:40 dduncan I rarely use the shell
04:40 audreyt ok
04:40 dduncan the problem may be a bit older, but I only remember it since 1-2 days ago
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04:40 audreyt nod, I hit it at every Tiger installation
04:40 audreyt it's not as bad as segfaulting on freebsd here
04:41 audreyt but still quite annoying
04:41 audreyt ok, I think disabling readline for Tiger by default is sane, then
04:42 audreyt (i.e. putter++'s current treatment)
04:43 dduncan and the way putter did it, by checking for the symbol, is best as it allows Tiger people who installed newer readline themselves to use it
04:44 audreyt hm, let me check in a simple test
04:44 dduncan I was about to smoke now, but I can wait for that
04:44 dduncan or I won't
04:45 putter not so much checking for the symbol, but embedded test hs script again using all the functionality the real Shell uses.  the problem was, the Shell's usage expanded without the test's doing so (and the domain turned out to be complex enough for this to matter).
04:45 dduncan this smoke will see what affects that audreyt's pile-o-changes made since my last commit
04:46 dduncan and then I will look into getting the rest of the ext/ to work
04:46 * putter is currently smoking 8825
04:46 dduncan I'm doing 8827
04:46 putter k
04:46 dduncan on my machine at normal speed, it takes 2 hours
04:47 dduncan question ...
04:47 putter OSes as complex domains --
04:47 audreyt ok, r8828 is in.
04:47 dduncan if one sets config.yml to have 2 concurrent processes ...
04:47 dduncan how many pugs processes should be running at once during the tests?
04:47 audreyt 2~4?
04:47 dduncan I only ever see 1
04:47 putter hmm.  me too, now that you mention it.
04:48 svnbot6 r8828 | audreyt++ | * Readline emulation in Pugs.Shell for people without
04:48 svnbot6 r8828 | audreyt++ |   GNU readline in their system.
04:48 dduncan I see 2 perl processes using zero cpu
04:48 dduncan but only 1 pugs process open
04:48 audreyt dduncan: can you try r8828 and shell?
04:48 dduncan so it isn't really using both of my cpus
04:48 dduncan do you want me to kill my smoke first?
04:48 audreyt dduncan: no, not really, ^Z will do
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04:49 putter oh, wait. I'm not setting config.yml.  never mind.
04:50 dduncan well, my config.yml contains "smoke_concurrent: 2" and that value is reflected at 'make' time
04:50 dduncan but I still only see 1 pugs process when smoking
04:50 putter btw, hi audreyt.  :)  good dinner with the folks?
04:50 dduncan this has been the case for quite awhile now
04:51 dduncan Pugs.Shell did not die when being compiled
04:51 audreyt putter: yup, people are quite adaptable :)
04:51 dduncan on r8828
04:51 dduncan otoh, when compiling Pugs, it did die
04:51 putter yay :)
04:52 dduncan a whole bunch of undefined symbols "_SystemziConsoleziSimpleLineEditor_*"
04:52 dduncan audreyt, did that answer your question?
04:52 audreyt dduncan: yes. please hand-hack Pugs.cabal
04:52 dduncan note that I didn't rerun the Makefile.PL, only 'make'
04:53 audreyt or rather Pugs.cabal.in
04:53 audreyt before "QuickCheck -any"
04:53 audreyt in line 7
04:53 audreyt add a
04:53 audreyt readline -any,
04:53 audreyt to it, and "make pugs" again
04:53 dduncan okay, I have pugs.cabal.in open
04:55 audreyt line 7 should be "build-depends: ...", add "readline -any, " as one of the depends
04:55 * putter notes there is already a readline -any at the end of the line
04:55 dduncan I added the readline -any
04:55 dduncan putter, not on my line 7
04:55 clkao i so want something to tell me all possible occurances of $o->bar calls where $o can be Foo
04:55 putter build-depends: QuickCheck -any, base -any, mtl -any, stm -any, haskell98 -any, network -any, template-haskell -any, unix -any, readline -any
04:55 audreyt putter: yes, and you are looking at .cabal not .in
04:56 putter duh.  tnx
04:56 dduncan audreyt, did you mean run 'make' or 'make pugs'?
04:56 dduncan after that edit?
04:56 dduncan will try 'make pugs'
04:57 audreyt both should do
04:57 putter clkao: maybe next release?  though that will require having type annotations on the ast, so maybe not.
04:57 clkao i mean in perl5
04:57 dduncan that didn't work; same link errors
04:57 clkao *sigh*
04:58 putter lol
04:58 clkao i was ---><---- this close to write some analyser using ppi
04:58 pasteling "dduncan" at 24.108.164.7 pasted "my current (edited) Pugs.cabal.in" (26 lines, 2.2K) at http://sial.org/pbot/15656
04:59 dduncan audreyt, in case that is helpful
04:59 clkao right now i am totally depending on svk's test coverage so get those calls in runtime and fix them
05:00 putter what's the nature of the problem?
05:00 audreyt clkao: welcome to the "dynamic even if not needed, static quite impossible" language world
05:00 clkao the nature of the problem is i had some crappy interface. now lots of codebase is using them. and i am silly enough to do some refactoring when i am on holiday
05:01 putter lol :)
05:01 audreyt dduncan: so, pugs gets built, and you were able to use the shell? does the common line editing keys (home, end, cursors) works for you?
05:01 dduncan no I wasn't
05:01 dduncan after editing the file you mentioned, I get the same link errors as before on attempting to make
05:01 clkao audreyt: we need to write this on 春聯
05:02 clkao putter: so in short, i suck
05:02 audreyt dduncan: ok, bad idea then, I'll revert my change.
05:02 audreyt thanks for the test :)
05:02 dduncan okay
05:03 dduncan maybe I did something wrong, but I thought it was what you told me to do
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05:04 putter clkao: hmm, if there is a test suite, one could try the (ideally automated) edit one/some instances of ->bar, run test and see if it fails, repeat for all ->bar.  assuming $o not Foo has a detectable signature (ie, a test fail)
05:04 audreyt dduncan: you didn't do anything wrong, I think that's as expected
05:05 audreyt no worries :)
05:05 clkao ya. that's more or less what i am doing. but i am depending on the test coverage
05:05 clkao how would perl6 make my life easier in this case?
05:05 clkao i assume it's easy for some tool to tell me all $o that is Foo right?
05:06 audreyt clkao: type inferencing, mostly
05:06 putter could filter the set of interest $o's by excluding ones whose type is known to be incompatible with Foo.
05:06 audreyt clkao: which is that "some tool", yes
05:06 clkao *nod*
05:06 svnbot6 r8829 | audreyt++ | * revert the failed attempt at emulating readline
05:06 svnbot6 r8829 | audreyt++ |   using System.Console.SimpleLineEditor, as it didn't
05:06 svnbot6 r8829 | audreyt++ |   quite work for dduncan++ (and neither for me)
05:06 audreyt but it does require some annotations on your part.
05:07 audreyt e.g. declaring classes with "class" and add types to member variables and function signatures etc.
05:07 audreyt the more annotations you put, the more information the inferencer gets
05:07 clkao yep
05:08 putter could also do semi-automated "aspect oriented programming", ie, massage questionable instances of $o into $o.does(Foo) ?? {log_oops;$o->before} !!  $o->after
05:09 audreyt lexwrap can already do that for perl5
05:10 clkao i think the point is to get those in compile time
05:10 putter oh, I was afraid of that.  meant $o.does(Foo) ?? {log_oops;$o->bar0} !!  $o->bar1
05:10 putter or shouldnt I be looking at Hook::LexWrap?
05:12 dduncan the reverted builds
05:13 audreyt putter: just installing a Foo::bar prehook that does log_oops would do, no?
05:13 putter oh, I get it.  too many different oo languages swirling in my brain.
05:16 putter clkao: so you could annotate / lexwrap all the ->bar's in your program, have the log the caller file/line, run you tests, perhaps if you have a captive user base, have them run it to, and then you'll have a plausible list of $o's to change.
05:17 clkao ya. but i also want to find those not covered by tests
05:18 putter thus the idea of giving users the instrumented version, assuming that's plausible.  then you get the log from their real use.
05:21 putter hey, have smoke
05:21 audreyt woot
05:21 * audreyt starts triaging based on putter's smoke
05:22 putter http://m19s28.vlinux.de/iblech/stuff/pugs-s​mokes/pugs-smoke-6.2.10-r8825-linux-normal-​-1138512146-3958--10721-10008-713-1533-984-​0--cf0a8272033e78e61bc3bda2c963593d.html
05:23 putter and dduncan is running an r8828 osx.
05:27 putter clkao: re holiday/suck, as long as it's fun?  if not, then -Ofun ;)
05:28 * putter ponders the meaning of calling ones' self with alternate arguments...
05:30 dduncan actually, I'm running r8829 now
05:30 dduncan but I expect the test failures to be about the same
05:31 dduncan as far as audreyt's triaging goes, you should focus on the t/ items
05:32 audreyt okay, doing so
05:32 dduncan because ... if they are correct, then any ext/ failures are probably due to bad ext/ code and not bad pugs code, which makes things easier for me
05:33 audreyt nod.
05:33 dduncan that said, I think Pod-Event-Parser was working before your changes
05:33 dduncan but I will confirm
05:33 audreyt okay.
05:34 svnbot6 r8830 | audreyt++ | * junction/chained_operators.t: unbreak the test syntax.
05:34 audreyt I'll be offline a bit to focus on triaging
05:34 audreyt will be back in 0.5~1hrs
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06:07 dduncan maybe I just need to configure my terminal, but the current Pugs doesn't accept the delete key
06:07 dduncan hitting it just causes junk to display
06:07 dduncan when in shell
06:08 dduncan mind you, the delete key works in other terminal apps
06:08 svnbot6 r8831 | audreyt++ | * TODOing variously dying oo tests.
06:09 dduncan so, Config::Tiny fails to parse, whereas it did parse yesterday
06:09 dduncan it appears that removing the line "$line .= chomp;" allows it to parse
06:09 dduncan currently checking that in isolation ...
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06:12 dduncan ?eval my $x = "fu"; $x .= chomp;
06:12 evalbot_8807 is now known as evalbot_8831
06:12 evalbot_8831 Error:  unexpected "." expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
06:12 dduncan so that parsed yesterday, and now it doesn't
06:13 dduncan ?eval my $x = "fu"; $x .= chomp();
06:13 evalbot_8831 Error:  unexpected "." expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
06:14 dduncan ?eval my Str $x = "fu"; $x .= chomp;
06:14 evalbot_8831 Error:  unexpected "." expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
06:14 dduncan ?eval my $x = "fu"; $x  = $x.chomp;
06:14 evalbot_8831 \"fu"
06:19 dduncan the core test t/pugsrun/03-dash-p.t is also dying, and uses .= chomp
06:21 dduncan oh wait, that's in the pod of the file
06:22 dduncan so its not the cause of dash-p's death
06:22 putter dduncan: I noticed chomp.t is being skipped.
06:23 dduncan oh?
06:23 putter don't know why.  looking at log...
06:27 dduncan oddly enough, chomp.t itself isn't being skipped, but for its last 2 tests
06:29 dduncan chomp.t hasn't been updated in 3 months
06:30 dduncan various evidence points to the Parser changes made yesterday as the culprit, assuming that $foo .= chomp is valid perl 6
06:30 putter someplace between r8818 and r8825, chomp.t became a parsefail
06:31 putter unexpected "." expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or "}" at t/builtins/strings/chomp.t line 24, column 10
06:31 dduncan it was at r8824-5
06:32 dduncan my posted smoke of 8823 shows it passing
06:32 dduncan as well as various chomp using things passing
06:33 putter t/syntax/inplace.t is like that too.  and there are a couple of other candidates.
06:33 dduncan its r8824, the big mass of triaging, that broke it
06:33 putter ah, ok
06:34 dduncan that change included several parser file changes
06:34 putter ok.  maybe wait until audreyt surfaces.  may already be fixed. ;)
06:35 dduncan mayhaps ... but who better to fix something than the one who broke it?
06:35 dduncan um, ...
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06:35 dduncan you do agree that "$x .= chomp;" is correct, yes?
06:36 dduncan and r8824 wasn't just exposing bad code?
06:36 putter re agree, so chomp.t suggests
06:36 dduncan well, I probably won't be testing any more today, waiting for that fix to come in first
06:37 putter shift change ;)
06:38 dduncan also, unless the issue is transient, which I'm testing now, there are issues using the pugs shell now
06:38 putter oh?
06:38 dduncan eg, backspace/delete key doesn't work
06:38 putter it's *nix.  bs/del are _supposed_ to not work.  ;)
06:39 putter sigh.
06:39 dduncan so what key do you hit to delete something you just typed into the pugs shell?
06:39 dduncan those keys work fine in the ordinary shell, and other cmdline apps
06:40 dduncan anyway, I did a make realclean and am trying building again, in case that experiment with editing cabal left crumbs around
06:40 putter since you're not seeing readline any more, if (haven't checked) pugs is just reading in line-at-a-time mode, then in editing you're just seeing some flavor of your terminal configuration, no?
06:41 dduncan well, the delete key worked in line-at-atime mode before
06:41 dduncan under Panther
06:43 putter I suspect you were getting readline back then.  the downside of the pugs readline changes, is now you dont.
06:43 dduncan you think I was getting readline in Panther?
06:43 putter why not?
06:43 dduncan somehow I thought it was added for Tiger
06:44 dduncan in any event, that stuff we went through today ...
06:44 meppl guten morgen
06:44 dduncan about readline
06:44 dduncan I was under the impression I had never been using it before, under Panther
06:44 * putter tries to remember how to say good morning in some language other than english.  fails.  sign it's time to say good night.
06:45 dduncan and the delete key is so basic, that even a non-readline input replacement should support it
06:45 meppl good night putter
06:47 putter no, the chain goes like this:  pugs was using readline whenever ghc saw it, and a little test script passed.  but there were issues with threads.  those were fixed by using more of the readline api, which happened to not be supported by tiger.  causing build failure.  so the test was extended to check for the new features.  which
06:47 dduncan but I thought readline was just for providing command histories and such
06:48 putter which fixed the build, but still means that the pugs readline implementation has changed in a way incompatible with current and past osx.  so now osx isnt getting readline any more, unless you install libreadline yourself.
06:48 dduncan very basic things like typing characters and erasing characters should be in any input method
06:49 putter you would think so.  but that's not the *nix tradition. ;)
06:50 putter pugs is in fact falling back to a simple getLine.  so its a ghc + terminal configuration problem.
06:50 dduncan so what then, did unix people never erase characters?
06:50 putter meppl: :)
06:51 dduncan if what you say is true, then why can my same terminal still work properly with those control characters?
06:51 putter so it's a hairy mess which often doesn't work.
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06:53 putter I would say ioclt, but part of the fun is each version of *nix has its own nuttiness.  I (happily?) dont remember what bsd's flavor is.
06:54 putter perhaps I'm being too negative.  perhaps posix has improved things.  but this corner of the world, terminal control and configuration, and the inability to get del and backspace reliably working, has been a problem for more than a human generation.  it gets a bit irritating after a while.  smells like dead fish. ;)
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06:57 Alias_ ping anyone in the know?
06:57 putter a less obscure answer is that terminals have modes, the modes and the way they are set vary between versions of *nix, and often have obscure nonlocal behavior and dependencies, and thus are often not used to correct result.
06:58 Alias_ I just saw the announce of Haskell'
06:58 Alias_ So, any other lambdacamels on the committee other than audrey?
06:58 * putter looks over sholder.  notes audreyt is off to focus on hacking, will be back eventually.
06:58 Alias_ Is Perl invading Haskell :)
06:59 putter I don't remember noticing any perl names other than audreyt.  then again, i didnt really look.  so ??
07:00 putter rather than invasion, perhaps a venn-diagram community intersection?  based in part on ghc's use of perl, and in part by audreyt sucking people into pugs?
07:01 Alias_ indeed
07:01 Alias_ It's an unbelievably elegant merger
07:01 putter good description
07:01 Alias_ The more pure, hardcore, computationall strict language, built up from pretty much pure math, and the most flexible, scripty DWIM language
07:02 Alias_ Meld the two close enough and you can pretty much do it all from military crypto to obfuscated oneliners
07:02 putter camel mates with ....
07:02 putter ?
07:02 Alias_ a bigger brain?
07:03 Alias_ We need a camel with a swolen head
07:03 putter oh my.  that's quite an image
07:03 Alias_ Or pure math... which would be a camel in black leather in the Matric
07:03 Alias_ Matrix
07:06 putter a while back there was the oneliner of "perl6 is the mechanism by which ML?Haskell? tries to take over the world".
07:06 Alias_ ML?
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07:07 putter http://en.wikipedia.org/wi​ki/ML_programming_language
07:09 Alias_ The predecessor to Haskell or something
07:09 Alias_ O! Caml!
07:09 putter yeah.  yes :)
07:10 putter and sml.  though caml seems to have the more active community.
07:11 Alias_ Well, it wins those programming competitions
07:11 * putter wonders how hard it would be to have ml or hs on top of p6...
07:11 Alias_ And that's about all I know
07:11 putter http://caml.inria.fr/
07:11 putter :)
07:12 putter nice web page redesign.  much simpler.  was very cluttered.
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07:17 nothingmuch morning
07:19 putter g'morning
07:20 meppl good morning nothingmuch
07:25 putter Alias_: one nice use of ocaml: http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/cil/
07:26 Alias_ wow
07:26 Alias_ But then C analysers have had a LONG time to evolve, and a LOT of money thrown at the problem
07:30 putter yeah, but it's only in the last very few years that open-source solutions have started to exist.  Cil, OpenC++, gcc with tree dumps.  sucks when everything takes multiple decades.
07:31 Alias_ true
07:31 putter it at least very vaguely looks plausible that hugs could be massaged into p6.  http://cvs.haskell.org/cgi-​bin/cvsweb.cgi/hugs98/src/
07:31 Alias_ I have a code generation/refactoring system for Perl, and when I was researching this about 4 years ago, the only BIG refactoring/analyser stuff I could find for C was half a million per seay
07:31 putter yeah
07:31 Alias_ seat
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07:32 Alias_ And god knows how much CPU needed
07:33 putter arpa et al kept funding individual researcher's efforts.  while encouraging their commercialization.  sometimes a good policy.  but here it meant there was one early limited unsupported public version, and a almost always unsuccessful attempt to commercialize it.  leaving nothing.  there were at least 3? cases like that. :(
07:36 putter then again, it's a non-trivial exercise.  especially C++.  putter wants to see lots and lots of languages on top of p6.  at this moment exploring haskell.  But C++...?  "run away! run away!"
07:38 Alias_ heh
07:38 putter hmm...  I wonder how hard it would be to do big refactoring / analyser stuff in p6...  half-million you say... ;)
07:38 Alias_ But oh the libraries we'd get
07:40 putter re "But oh the libraries we'd get", that's the "expendable-extra-character choosing to linger to gather more riches" line.   projects head off down that pretty path... and their wreckage washes up years later.
07:41 Alias_ oh wait, C++
07:41 Alias_ We'd get buffer overflows and such inherited?
07:41 Alias_ Surely not :)
07:41 putter s/riches/riches, while the tomb collapses/
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07:44 putter its more that its really really complex.  so for instance, M$ intentional progrming folks (pour code into database) did C++ because M$ does C++.  several rewrites from scratch later, and n years, the project was eventually shot.
07:44 luqui putter, dost thou havst an example?
07:44 luqui of said riches
07:44 putter lol :)
07:44 luqui er, said wreckage'
07:45 luqui oh, you just gave one
07:46 luqui yeah, C++ is a pretty damn complex language
07:46 Alias_ luqui: Pour example, native KDE integration
07:46 Alias_ The riches!
07:46 Alias_ Integration with games programming
07:46 luqui Alias_, why can't you use NCI for that?  The mangling?
07:46 Alias_ Perl 6 as the language for Quake 5 modding
07:46 Alias_ anwyas
07:47 * Alias_ wanders off
07:47 Alias_ left perl6
07:47 luqui Well, Lua saw the light for WoW
07:47 putter ha!  Alias_ is sneaking off to gather riches which are rightfully ours!
07:47 putter WoW?
07:48 dduncan I'm going to investigate some of these terminal/readline/whatever issues
07:49 dduncan will try rebooting under previous my previous OS from last week, to see if it's normal again
07:49 dduncan left perl6
07:49 * putter fondly recalls working with dduncan, last seen heading hopefully down a dark and deep rathole
07:50 * putter heads off for the accessible riches of sleep
07:50 putter 'night all &
07:50 Aankhen`` G'night.
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08:02 meppl good night aankhen
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08:03 dduncan okay, following up with that test
08:04 dduncan I've confirmed that, ...
08:04 dduncan A: the current pugs compilation has the same shell problems under Mac OS 10.3.9 as it does under Mac OS 10.4.4
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08:05 dduncan B: 10.3.x *never* had any version of readline installed ...
08:05 dduncan and yet the pugs shell worked properly there
08:05 dduncan a few days ago
08:05 dduncan likewise, I seem to recall but not sure it worked normally under 10.4.4 a few days ago
08:06 dduncan seeing the same broken current pugs behaviour under the terminals of both versions seems to rule out that a terminal difference or config is the problem
08:07 dduncan also, the fact that deletes et al worked properly in pugs a few weeks ago, when readline was never installed, says that readline isn't a prerequisite for such simple features
08:07 dduncan which means that the fact my pugs isn't linking in the older readline on my 10.4.4 system shouldn't cause a failure
08:08 dduncan so there would seem to be a problem in the recent pugs shell itself
08:08 dduncan and this should be fixable
08:08 dduncan ... I will look into some file diffs further ...
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08:22 dduncan comparing Shell.hs from revision 8162, it appears that r8820 may actually be the cause of my problems
08:23 dduncan I think it may be the new linebuffering commands that were added
08:23 integral oh, Makefile.PL has been changed recently :-/
08:23 dduncan they appear in the code unconditionally whether readline is in use or not; I will try moving them into the ifdef for readline
08:23 dduncan I don't think the Makefile.PL has anything to do with my problem
08:23 clkao hmm, jsperl5 is passing less. weird.
08:24 dduncan the problem I'm seeing right now isn't a make linking problem, but a runtime input/output buffering problem
08:24 integral ah, sorry, still thought we were back on that
08:24 dduncan I'll see what moving those lines does
08:24 dduncan no, the linking is fine
08:26 dduncan actually, revision 8825 has those commands in the ifdef
08:27 dduncan I think that autrijus' subsequent experiment and rollback in 8828 and 8829 put the commands in the wrong place
08:27 dduncan specifically, 8829 is at fault, I think
08:27 dduncan will test that theory ...
08:38 dduncan I think I fixed it ... committing
08:38 dduncan at least, the change works for me, and it is based on an older version
08:42 dduncan push done
08:43 dduncan as r8832
08:44 dduncan whomever's around, please update to r8832 and confirm that my Haskell editing didn't break something
08:44 svnbot6 r8832 | Darren_Duncan++ |  r2186@darren-duncans-power-mac-g4:  darrenduncan | 2006-01-29 00:41:00 -0800
08:44 svnbot6 r8832 | Darren_Duncan++ |  src/Pugs/Shell.hs : updated the expressing setting initializeShell so it only invokes NoBuffering when we're using readline, rather than doing it unconditionally; this fixes a bug seemingly introduced in r8829 ... as a result, the pugs shell now handles the backspace/delete key correctly
08:44 dduncan I don't think it did, but this is like the second time ever that I edited haskell
08:45 dduncan I need two testers, one that has readline and one that doesn't
08:46 dduncan for myself, the delete key works again
08:48 dduncan okay, so its almost 1am here ... good night
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11:09 nnunley http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/%7Eboucherd/​mslug/meetings/20041020/minutes-en.html
11:09 svnbot6 r8833 | audreyt++ | * TODOization of three more tests.
11:14 audreyt dduncan: "foo" and "return foo" have different types in haskell, so I removed an extra "return"
11:14 svnbot6 r8834 | audreyt++ | * Unbreak dduncan++'s editing for readline users.
11:14 audreyt dduncan: thanks for catching my misedit for nonreadline branch
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13:12 putter dduncan++
13:13 * putter shall endeavor to be less pessimistic in future.
13:14 putter audreyt: hi.  you saw dduncan's note re r8824 and chomp.t et al?
13:21 putter anyone: re haskell on p6, ghc's ext-core seems a plausible way to go http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/lat​est/html/users_guide/ext-core.html
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14:09 svnbot6 r8835 | audreyt++ | * TODOize and corrected the rest of main test suite.
14:10 audreyt greetings
14:11 audreyt putter: GHC's Core is less pleasant than (say) YHC or JHC's.
14:11 audreyt I think YHC is most promising
14:11 audreyt but then, now that I grokked the IL in the not-not-ml paper, it seems plausible as well
14:12 audreyt though there's no production-grade compiler from anything to that IL yet
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14:24 svnbot6 r8836 | audreyt++ | * "chop" returns chopped string instead of modifying it
14:24 svnbot6 r8836 | audreyt++ |   in-place, so remove the "is rw" from its signature.
14:28 svnbot6 r8837 | audreyt++ | * -n and -p now always surrounds the remaining flags with
14:28 svnbot6 r8837 | audreyt++ |   while () {...} blocks, instead of only the -e parts.
14:28 audreyt ok, I _think_ that's all of the main test suite
14:28 * audreyt starts another round of smokes
14:28 clkao whoot
14:28 audreyt the anniversary release looks hopeful
14:28 audreyt though I spent far too much time grokking the not-not-ml paper
14:28 audreyt very enlightening, though
14:29 audreyt bestian++ # helpful on the other side of curry-howard bridge
14:29 svnbot6 r8838 | audreyt++ | * "$foo .method" now parses again; "$foo. method" now parsefails again.
14:39 xinming joined perl6
14:46 putter audreyt: would you like any of the other backend smokes run in parallel with yours?
14:46 audreyt putter: sure, a pil2js run would be nice
14:46 putter will do
14:46 audreyt putter: and no, what about chomp.t?
14:47 putter http://colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_log/​perl6?date=2006-01-29,Sun&amp;sel=310#l493
14:49 audreyt I accidentally fixed that in r8838
14:50 xinming audreyt: did you have a nice day yesterday? :-)
14:50 audreyt xinming: yeah, got plenty of red envelope too
14:50 xinming I spent a lonely day yesterday. :-(
14:50 audreyt learned a lot about cosmetics and clothings etc from my aunt
14:50 audreyt xinming: ow :/
14:51 xinming hmm, is preparing to go KunMing. I'll go in 2 weeks maybe.
14:51 audreyt how's kunming nowadays? I've never been there, only read about it in books
14:52 clkao audreyt: i did a pil2js run already
14:52 clkao but it's a bit eaerlier
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14:52 xinming audreyt: Weather in KunMing is the most important case for people choose there. :-P  It's all spring, no summer, no winter, and even no autumn. :-)
14:53 xinming audreyt: You only need 2 suits to live there. :-P
14:53 audreyt wow, constant weather
14:53 audreyt sounds lovely
14:54 wolverian sounds boring ;)
14:54 * putter thinks it sounds boring (obligatory US New England opinion')
14:54 wolverian (I'm just trying to stand up for the weather-from-hell we have here.)
14:54 * Odin- lives where there's no weather.
14:54 putter where?
14:54 Odin- Just samples of weather. :)
14:55 audreyt weatherlets
14:55 xinming I grow in KunMing, and then back to WenZhou. It's a pain to live here at first... as I don't know when I need to change the clothes,
14:56 xinming putter: No, It won't boring, You'll love there if you live there for a long time. :-)
14:56 xinming s/won't/won't be/
14:56 putter :)
15:00 putter re haskell on js.  yhs has the advantage of a simple vm, and it looks like someone is meeting with some success doing a .net for it.  disadds include looks like a one-person project, and is still a bit toy-ish.  jhc has a larger community, but is also far more ambitious. it would be nice to have acceess to its analysis phases in p6,
15:03 putter and it seems to be working on some snippets, but scaling issues make self-compilation look somewhat distant.  ghc... is there some disadd to ghc core?  other than the complexity required to run it?  and its perhaps? lack of a user community?  certainly ghc is the most capable of the compilers.  whether that gets reflected in the core code is a separate risk point.
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15:07 audreyt putter: YHC is NHC's successor, so it has the sane NHC base
15:07 audreyt putter: GHC is the most capable, but GHC's core is not as easy to work with.
15:07 audreyt putter: certainly a JVM and a CLR backend existed for GHC, and we can work fron there.
15:07 audreyt but YHC's VM instructions does look very accessible.
15:07 audreyt but I need to sleep now :)
15:07 * audreyt pressed "shift"
15:08 audreyt journal up... see you tomorrow.
15:08 putter ;)
15:08 putter good night audreyt &
15:08 Juerd audreyt: Sleep well
15:09 GeJ joined perl6
15:10 putter http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/~ndm/yhc/  http://repetae.net/john/computer/jhc/   http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/~ndm/​yhc/docs/ByteCode-Instructions.html
15:14 integral oooh, dduncan++ # rewriting File::Spec
15:17 putter a build issue: I've been noticing that make builds a precompiled js prelude, but then make smoke-js builds one again.  so something isn't quite right.
15:18 wolverian hmm. dduncan++ # nice
15:18 wolverian I'll rewrite Path::Class on that as soon as possible :)
15:19 integral wolverian++
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17:30 xinming anyone here use debian testing?
17:31 xinming Welcome to Pugs -- Perl6 User's Golfing System
17:31 xinming Type :h for help.
17:31 xinming Loading Prelude... done.
17:31 xinming Segmentation fault
17:31 xinming I compiled this on both laptop and my pc. with the same result. and I've tried to make clean. :-/
17:39 ingy hola
17:39 ingy seen audreyt
17:39 jabbot ingy: audreyt was seen 2 hours 31 minutes 1 seconds ago
17:39 obra   ingy!
17:39 obra how's things?
17:48 weinig joined perl6
17:52 clkao ingy, your mail is fscked. jo sent a mail to you
18:03 dduncan joined perl6
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18:19 putter r8838 smokes for both freebsd and linux are up.  core isn't quite green yet, but getting there.
18:26 pjcj_ joined perl6
18:34 elmex joined perl6
18:40 xinming hmm, anyone here got my problem?
18:40 xinming failed to run pugs
18:55 pjcj joined perl6
18:57 putter failed to run pugs?
19:14 gaal yo
19:15 gaal pugs is still Rat-happy. Should this be fixed for the release?
19:16 theorbtwo Rat-happy?
19:16 integral bleh, my pugs really doesn't like t/pugsrun.  /me kicks his box
19:16 gaal ?eval 10 ** 3 / 2 ** 10
19:17 gaal no evalbot? :-(
19:17 evalbot_8831 is now known as evalbot_8838
19:17 evalbot_8838 125/128
19:17 integral it's just slow when it has to upgrade itself ;)
19:17 gaal ?eval "I wanted a decimal: " ~ 10 ** 3 / 2 ** 10
19:18 gaal integral: I don't think in updates lazily ;-)
19:18 evalbot_8838 "I wanted a decimal: 0.9765625"
19:18 gaal feather must be loaded
19:18 theorbtwo What's wrong with that being a rat?
19:18 theorbtwo ?eval 3/6
19:18 integral oh, damn I forgot to nice my make
19:19 evalbot_8838 1/2
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19:19 theorbtwo ?eval 6/3
19:19 evalbot_8838 2/1
19:20 gaal it's not morally reprehensible or anything, but it's surprising
19:20 theorbtwo It is?
19:20 gaal sure, do the same code in Perl 5
19:21 theorbtwo Right.  This is better.
19:22 gaal theorbtwo: I'm not sure it is; when the fractional parts get big it loses redability:
19:22 gaal ?eval 1000 ** 3 / 2 ** 1000
19:22 theorbtwo gaal: Only if you do .perl.
19:22 evalbot_8838 1953125/209279024841067836122739267394531603​62527437728623703270385749772858418967283908​64244528083624405972905458345542095989892943​64313611780086640323780755831539139347026852​03576143400536338012443636480379262017668896​45230847903788821788899520301968176350502186​8120481527671211777014946532005541417320448
19:22 theorbtwo ...and the two sides are rel prime.
19:23 gaal right. perhaps it should be "fixed" in prettyVal only.
19:24 gaal the fraction quoted above gives very little cue about its size
19:24 theorbtwo If you don't like it, feel free to ~.
19:24 Odin- That's a problem with rational representation in general...
19:25 theorbtwo ?eval ~(1000 ** 3 / 2 ** 1000)
19:25 gaal "indeed" xx 2
19:25 evalbot_8838 "0"
19:25 theorbtwo Um... now /that/ is a bug.
19:25 Odin- Mmmm. Yes.
19:25 Odin- Quite certainly.
19:26 gaal should it be a bigsmalldecimal?
19:28 gaal ?eval [+] (~(1000 ** 3 / 2 ** 1000) xx 1000)
19:28 evalbot_8838 0.0
19:28 gaal oops, silly test
19:29 gaal see, I don't know how to "shake off" Ratitude except by stringification
19:29 theorbtwo ?eval 1.0 * 1000 ** 3 / 2 ** 1000
19:29 gaal but you know what, maybe I shoudln
19:29 gaal 't care.
19:29 evalbot_8838 1953125/209279024841067836122739267394531603​62527437728623703270385749772858418967283908​64244528083624405972905458345542095989892943​64313611780086640323780755831539139347026852​03576143400536338012443636480379262017668896​45230847903788821788899520301968176350502186​8120481527671211777014946532005541417320448
19:30 gaal theorbtwo: not so easy :) adding integers doesn't help either.
19:30 theorbtwo ?eval 1.0 * (1000 ** 3 / 2 ** 1000)
19:30 evalbot_8838 1953125/209279024841067836122739267394531603​62527437728623703270385749772858418967283908​64244528083624405972905458345542095989892943​64313611780086640323780755831539139347026852​03576143400536338012443636480379262017668896​45230847903788821788899520301968176350502186​8120481527671211777014946532005541417320448
19:33 xinming putter: I'll get seg fault when I start pugs
19:33 theorbtwo Hm.
19:33 xinming Welcome to Pugs -- Perl6 User's Golfing System
19:33 xinming Type :h for help.
19:33 xinming Loading Prelude... done.
19:33 xinming Segmentation fault
19:33 xinming xinming@HomePc:~$
19:34 theorbtwo Possibly a bit of an issue.
19:34 gaal xinming: what OS are you on?
19:34 gaal xinming: how much RAM do you have?
19:35 xinming debian
19:35 xinming 512M
19:35 xinming I am in debian testing
19:35 gaal and, are you on the last r of pugs? audreyt fixed a segfault lately
19:36 gaal I'd try playing around with heap size:
19:36 gaal ./pugs +RTS -M300        (I think it goes)
19:36 xinming I use the latest version
19:36 xinming gaal: ?? Not works.
19:37 gaal hmmm, i thought there was an infectuous way of telling any ghc-compiled program how much heap to give, but I may be imagining things
19:38 xinming gaal: by the way, Is ghc 6.4 still supported for now?
19:38 gaal yes
19:39 gaal xinming: try seeing what strace says?
19:39 gaal strace -o /tmp/pugs.trace ./pugs ; tail -50 /tmp/pugs.trace
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19:43 lisppaste3 xinming pasted "last 50 line post" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/16184
19:46 gaal hmm, nothing obvious
19:46 gaal (except that haskell io is way inefficient :-)
19:47 gaal actually, i wonder, why is it trying to open /usr/share/perl/5.8/strict.pm ? :)
19:47 gaal xinming: oh you probably have embedded perl5, right?
19:48 xinming yes
19:48 gaal well, sorry, I can't think of anything. :(
19:48 xinming It's ok, I'll ask audreyt about this
20:05 putter xinming: have you tried it without embedded perl?
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20:43 xinming putter: I compiled it without the perl5 embed, There will be segfaults too. :-/
20:51 putter :(
20:52 putter clean build?  no bits left over from a previous one?
20:59 xinming putter: yes. I've even rm the dir and co again. :'(
21:22 putter smoke of pil2js r8838 is up.
21:22 putter xinming: what os, cpu, etc?
21:22 putter version of ghc?
21:27 lypanov joined perl6
21:31 xinming I use ghc 6.4, and cpu is barton 2500+ from AMD, and using debian testing.
21:31 xinming gcc version is `gcc version 4.0.3 20051201 (prerelease) (Debian 4.0.2-5)`
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22:34 Juerd gaal: What did you mean by "loaded" in "feather must be loaded"?
22:34 putter xinming: ah, gcc 4.0.  that requires 6.4.1.  there's a note in INSTALL.
22:35 xinming putter: Ok, I think I have compile ghc myself. :-/ I'll try that, thanks
22:48 putter xinming: http://www.haskell.org/ghc/download_ghc_641.html has a debian binaries section.
22:49 putter (I googled "debian ghc 6.4.1")
23:00 xinming putter: hmm, I use testing, If I upgrade to 6.4.1, I have to upgrade many packages which are in unstable. :-/
23:00 xinming putter: what Os you use by the way?
23:01 xinming freebsd?
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23:13 gaal Juerd: evalbot was responding slowly. somebody forgot to nice their build but they reniced it when they noticed.
23:14 gaal ?eval "am I slow now?"
23:14 evalbot_8838 "am I slow now?"
23:14 gaal I think now it's okay.
23:18 Juerd gaal: Ah, okay. Thanks for reminding this somebody to nice their processes
23:19 Juerd It's amazing how many people use unixlike systems at home, while having little or no experience with unix systems shared with other people :)
23:20 Juerd I've been considering upgrading feather, by the way
23:20 mugwump hardware or OS?
23:20 Juerd Hardware. I do OS upgrades often.
23:21 Odin- What's feather running, OSwise?
23:21 Juerd Odin-: Debian GNU/Linux
23:21 Odin- Which version?
23:21 Juerd Odin-: Sid
23:22 * rafl would appreciate that.
23:23 Juerd I'd like a dual cpu system, possible amd64
23:23 Juerd s/ble/bly/
23:23 gaal RAM is probably the first priority, since if two people compile at the same time the machine risks thrashing
23:24 gaal zZZ &
23:25 Juerd gaal: Most of the time, and that's more than 95% of the day, half of the memory is available.
23:25 Juerd gaal: I think making builds faster (and thus making memory available again faster) is more economic
23:28 Juerd Oh, just to make things clear: don't expect such an upgrade soon :)
23:29 gaal Juerd: if just *over* half is available then, fine, but otherwise consider that the danger band is longer than 5% of the time
23:29 * gaal has no expectations, just cheery hopes regarding everything Perl 6
23:29 gaal now where was that bed
23:31 Juerd Hm, feather has only 1 GB of memory. I really thought it had 2
23:31 Juerd Let's see what this board is capable of
23:34 Juerd "Support for up to 2 GB system memory"
23:34 Juerd Not much, but more than current
23:38 Juerd    Bank: "DIMM0"
23:38 Juerd    Size: 512 MB
23:38 Juerd    Bank: "DIMM1"
23:38 Juerd    Size: 512 MB
23:39 Juerd That's unfortunate, though

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