Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-02-06

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
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02:43 dduncan hello, anyone home?
02:45 xinming :-)
02:45 dduncan do you know if Perl 6 allows a class to define that an automatic default value is given to any variable declared of that type?
02:45 dduncan eg, I would want, if someone said "my MyNum $foo;" ...
02:46 dduncan then right then, $foo contains a new MyNum object having the value zero
02:46 dduncan rather than $foo being undefined
02:46 xinming dduncan: do you mean? my Num $o .= new?
02:46 dduncan yes, I would want that, but without someone explicitly saying .= new()
02:46 * xinming is forgeting about which one is correct. .= or =. :-P
02:47 dduncan essentially, I want to override the 'my' operator in connection with that class
02:47 dduncan so it defaults to something other than undef, without the programmer specifying so
02:48 dduncan they can of course still give it an explicit value
02:48 xinming dduncan: I don't think you can do that by default. I think You might also want. class A {...}; A( a1 => 'v1', a2 => 'v2' );
02:48 dduncan essentially, I want to have a data type that is always defined
02:48 xinming dduncan: I don't think you can do that.
02:48 dduncan so I'll see if I can request this on p6l
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02:59 dduncan seen stevan
02:59 jabbot dduncan: stevan was seen 1 days 21 hours 34 minutes 52 seconds ago
02:59 stevan hey dduncan
03:00 dduncan okay, so you're one of the meta-model guys, right?
03:00 stevan i am the only one really :)
03:00 dduncan okay
03:00 dduncan I haven't looked too closely at the model yet ...
03:01 dduncan but does it have an overridable function for default values that a declared variable of a class has?
03:01 stevan best not too,.. it is still very much in flux,.. as is the spec too,..
03:01 dduncan said function would return undef by default
03:01 dduncan I'm writing to p6l now to request this, but thought I'd ask if it already existed or not
03:01 stevan can you give a code example
03:01 dduncan okay ...
03:02 dduncan my Foo $bar; # $bar automatically contains some defined value that was specified in class Foo
03:02 dduncan tjat
03:02 dduncan that's the usage case
03:02 stevan hmm
03:02 stevan so just by declaring $bar to be a Foo,.. it is something
03:02 dduncan I know perl 6 has overloading hooks defined all over the place, so there should be one here too
03:02 stevan an instance of Foo i assume
03:03 dduncan yes
03:03 stevan what do you want to $bar to be able to do?
03:03 dduncan for example, I want to be able to declare a class where variables of that class are never undefined
03:03 dduncan so, ...
03:03 dduncan 1. they get a default value on declaration
03:04 dduncan 2. setting them to undef causes something else to happen, such as an exception or the default value
03:04 stevan hmmm
03:04 dduncan the latter case can be handled by overloading '=' I think, if that's possible
03:04 stevan this is exact opposite of Larry's "class but undef" thing
03:04 dduncan I'm just looking for an elegant solution
03:04 stevan I dont know if you can overload assignment
03:04 stevan well according to Larry
03:04 dduncan though overloading assignment may not be necessary per se
03:05 stevan when you do my Foo $bar;
03:05 stevan $bar is an instance of Foo, but a somewhat special instance of Foo
03:05 stevan an instance which you can call methods on, but which evaluates to undef
03:05 stevan so you can do:
03:05 stevan my Foo $bar;
03:05 dduncan so in that case, I want to control what that special instance is
03:05 stevan $bar.isa(Foo)
03:05 stevan and it reutnr true
03:06 stevan but if ($bar) { "this would not be reached" }
03:06 dduncan eg, for my NumType $num; # now contains zero
03:06 stevan because $bar is "technically" no defined yet
03:06 stevan yeah I think that might be difficult
03:06 dduncan or, my MyStr $str; # now contains ''
03:07 stevan what is the differrence with doing: my MyStr $str .= new();
03:07 dduncan if the user leaves the ending off, the value is undefined
03:07 stevan this will ensure the instance is created.. then you can deal with the default then
03:07 stevan yes
03:07 dduncan I want to have a defined value even if the user doesn't assign one
03:08 stevan you might be able to do this kind of trickery with the metamodel,.. but we have not figured it out yet
03:08 dduncan mind you ...
03:08 stevan this touches on the repr type issue which I have been babbling about lately
03:08 dduncan now, I'm assuming that the current Perl 6 ...
03:08 stevan suggest it on p6l
03:08 stevan see what happens
03:09 dduncan if you define my Foo $foo = new Bar; # throws an exceptoin
03:09 stevan unless Bar.isa(Foo)
03:09 dduncan yes
03:09 dduncan or does that also work if Bar.does(Foo) ?
03:09 dduncan that case is what I'm more interested in
03:09 stevan uhm .. probably yes
03:10 stevan actually,.. yes,.. for sure that will work
03:10 stevan but please,.. post on p6l about possibly overriding the special "class but undef" thing
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03:10 stevan if nothing more,.. maybe you can get Larry to start expanding on that concept
03:10 dduncan widely speaking, I was looking for an elegant way to declare types that were more strict than normal
03:11 stevan it is somewhat still a little hand wavy
03:11 stevan Yeah I am not sure if that will even "make sense" within the type system,... thats a question for luqui or audreyt
03:11 stevan but I have to run,.. the movie is starting,.. and my wife is gonna kill me if I dont get off the computer :)
03:12 dduncan okay
03:12 stevan but please,.. post away,.. make sure to mention the "class but undef" idea,.. and get larry talking about it :)
03:12 * stevan &
03:12 dduncan yes
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03:34 dduncan stevan, that message is circulated
03:38 diotalevi_ Is there an equivalent to `use constant FOO => ...' in pugs?
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03:50 ayrnieu dio - the usual sub FOO { } ?
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03:59 diotalevi_ But... that's not usual. The perl5 implementation changed recently and it got reinforced that constant subs really ought to just be declared with the long-time pragma.
03:59 Alias_ dduncan: ping?
03:59 Alias_ seen dduncan
03:59 jabbot Alias_: dduncan was seen 25 minutes 19 seconds ago
04:02 diotalevi_ So... this is strange. Can I, in general, feed perl5 code to pugs?
04:13 dduncan diotalevi_, "is readonly" is what you want
04:14 Alias_ dduncan: You know we were talking about a demo project for Rosetta?
04:14 dduncan eg, "my $foo is readonly = 3;
04:14 Alias_ dduncan: I have the perfect one
04:14 dduncan go ahead
04:14 Alias_ dduncan: Can't really stay to talk but thought I'd ping you on it
04:14 Alias_ dduncan: You know phpMyPgAdmin
04:14 dduncan fyi, my first demo was going to be a simple command line genealogy app ... very trivial
04:14 Alias_ or whatever that god-awful mostgres/mysql database manager thingy is?
04:14 dduncan yes, of course
04:15 Alias_ ok, so you have a SQL abstraction language
04:15 dduncan I've been planning to have a Perl replacement for that
04:15 dduncan great minds think alike and all that
04:15 Alias_ So write a half decent abstracted-backend database interface
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04:15 Alias_ Even if it only does the basics, the fact you can point it at many databases is a huge advantage.
04:15 Alias_ It really shows off something you can't do without it
04:15 dduncan however, such a web interface from scratch will still take a fair amount of work if it'll be any good, so I'll want help with that
04:16 Alias_ (which is the most important part of a demo)
04:16 Alias_ I think you'll find if your code doesn't suck, help will just turn up :)
04:16 Alias_ Do it in Catalyst
04:16 dduncan sure
04:16 * Alias_ volunteers to help out if so
04:16 dduncan in fact, I even proposed such an app as something that a local college can do as a "capstone project"
04:17 Alias_ Anyways, I keep find myself wanting a database interface via web that doesn't suck
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04:17 Alias_ And the Catalyst thing means I can even install it over CGI if needed
04:17 Alias_ Anyways, just thought I'd let you know I think even a basic generalised database interface would be cool
04:17 Alias_ That is all :)
04:17 * Alias_ heads back to work
04:17 dduncan yes, I agree
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06:27 nothingmuch morning
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10:08 meppl perl5:Thread::Queue does not work anymore :/
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10:26 meppl # pugs -e 'use perl5:Thread::Queue; my $queue=Thread::Queue.new; $queue.enqueue("foo"); my $thread=async { say $queue.dequeue}; $thread.join'
10:26 meppl Segmentation fault
10:26 meppl #
10:26 meppl in older version of pugs it works i mean
10:27 meppl i think
10:27 meppl i didnt try it yet
10:31 meppl s/in /with /
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10:33 azuroth you're a very confusing person, meppl
10:34 meppl :/
10:36 meppl aeh, so perl5:Thread::Queue;  works without threads
10:36 meppl i dont know why there is segmentation fault
10:36 meppl im to stupid to find it out
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11:50 azuroth PHP's preg_replace doesn't let you get at the captures?
11:51 Juerd And how exactly is that something for #perl6?
11:52 Juerd And see tnx.nl/php for a table that has the answer
11:52 webmind perl6 is secretly a project make perl more into php ;)
11:52 azuroth ...sorry, I was just letting out some primitive aggression
11:53 integral pugs doesn't have a PHP frontend yet? :-P
11:53 azuroth or maybe it's motivating everyone, "we've already won" style
11:53 Juerd integral: PHP doesn't have lexical variables.
11:55 integral so it would be easy then!  And might even run on parrot
12:01 Kattana azuroth: use preg_replace_callback, its ugly but you can intercept the matches
12:02 Juerd integral: ...
12:02 azuroth I guess I'd need global to store the match in too?
12:03 Juerd azuroth: Combine preg_match and preg_replace, using the same string for the regex.
12:03 azuroth hmm. I guess it's gotta be done
12:03 Juerd azuroth: Or use expressions in the RHS^Wreplacement string argument of preg_replace to assign to variables :)
12:04 azuroth oh? sounds good
12:06 Kattana azuroth: example of that http://www.php.net/manual/en/function.preg-replace-callback.php#54205
12:08 Juerd Kattana: That requires a named function. That's SO ugly.
12:08 Juerd (And don't forget, all create_function() does is return the NAME of a new NAMED (NOT ANONYMOUS) function.)
12:09 azuroth hahah. that's crazy
12:09 Juerd And because of the expected level of competence in any PHP programmer, create_function is documented as: Usually the args will be passed as a single quote delimited string, and this is also recommended for the code. The reason for using single quoted strings, is to protect the variable names from parsing, otherwise, if you use double quotes there will be a need to escape the variable names, e.g. \$avar.
12:09 Juerd Just after saying "Creates an anonymous function from the parameters passed, and returns a unique name for it."
12:09 Juerd Yeah, now I believe you.
12:09 Kattana Juerd: I said it was ugly already :P
12:10 Juerd Creates an anonymous thing and returns its name. Say what?
12:10 azuroth why would anyone want to use PHP?
12:10 Juerd azuroth: Why are you using it right now?
12:10 azuroth I think it's all that's installed on my work's server. I think it's lobby time, though
12:10 Juerd No Perl installed?!
12:12 azuroth hmm. it _could_ be, but I'll have to check later. I only just realised how bad PHP is, so I wasn't quite so perturbed by the apparent monolinguism
12:12 azuroth (using big words to cover up my mistake ;-) )
12:14 Kattana php5 is not so bad, and its actual made for web-devlopment, its regex integration is sorely lacking compared to perl tho
12:26 Juerd azuroth:
12:26 Juerd <?$w=escapeshellarg($_SERVER[SCRIPT_FILENAME]);$z=preg_split("/\n\n/",
12:26 Juerd `perl -e'<>;<>;<>;undef$/;eval<>' $w 2>&1`,2);foreach(preg_split("/\n/",$z[0])as
12:26 Juerd $y)header($y);echo$z[1];exit?>
12:26 Juerd print "Content-Type: text/plain\n\n";
12:26 Juerd print "perl++\n" for 1..10;
12:26 Juerd Sorry it took a while to make. PHP just sucks.
12:27 azuroth hahaha. excellent! that's very wizardy.
12:28 azuroth Juerd++
12:29 szbalint heh, I did something similar for my university now-defunct website.
12:30 szbalint ;)
12:39 Juerd I posted it on PM
12:39 Juerd http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=528203
12:40 Juerd Kattana: PHP5 is so bad, by the way.
12:46 lypie Juerd: yup. its a mess
12:46 lypie the create_function addition made me want to cry
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12:55 azuroth night, all
12:57 Juerd lypie: Just that? Many thing in PHP make me cry.
12:57 Juerd http://tnx.nl/php lists a few.
13:01 Juerd Leave a wiki unattended for a year, and this happens: http://tnx.nl/wiki/
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13:07 * lypie hates wiki's
13:09 lypie morning chris2
13:11 chris2 hi lypie
13:13 szbalint Are you the maintainer of tnx.nl, Juerd ?
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14:44 Juerd szbalint: Yes.
14:44 Juerd lypie: I like wikis. Why do you hate them?
14:50 lypie Juerd: because the developers in general are silly asses
14:51 chris2 developers of wikis?
14:51 lypie Juerd: i never did understand why wiki devels have such a hate for things that will affect only a single perfect of the population
14:51 lypie Juerd: (as in, captchas)
14:51 lypie s/perfect/percent/
14:52 webmind lypie, how many and which wikis have you tried and didn't like?
14:52 lypie webmind: i've not tried one i really liked
14:52 lypie webmind: i've used 10-15 randomly. but never invested a lot of time in any given one
14:52 webmind I noticed that
14:52 chris2 lypie: remember i wrote nanoki, *you bastard*? :D
14:52 Kattana you hate wikis because you disagree with their devs?
14:53 webmind lypie, so what do you dislike ?
14:53 lypie webmind: i just dislike the overall interaction paradigm. lack of syntax checking and ajax based previews in most of them, and various other utter messups
14:53 lypie webmind: main one being the insane amount of spam i always get on wiki's i'ved tried to use in the past
14:54 lypie Kattana: yes. just like i hate perl5 because i disagree with the design of perl5? ;)
14:54 webmind spam has nothing todo with the developers
14:54 lypie Kattana: note, i'm quite binary in my tastes
14:54 webmind wikis are mainly build on trust
14:54 Kattana hate perl5 because its ugly and kludged together.
14:54 lypie webmind: if they can't code up a 50 line captcha check then sorry.. but... what good is trust?
14:54 lypie webmind: i'm all for login only read/write access personally
14:54 webmind lypie, it gives freedom
14:55 webmind lypie, well that's possible
14:55 lypie webmind: then you can't stop spam
14:55 webmind controlled user acounts does
14:55 Juerd lypie: I don't like wiki SYNTAX. In fact, I hate it.
14:55 Kattana if you are forced to login then all sorts of evil things can be done to you, anonymous is good, hating spam is fine, but not part of wikis
14:55 Juerd lypie: But wikis are useful. Captcha's I haven't noticed yet.
14:55 lypie webmind: i agree, and i'd love a trust metric based wiki with easy to create login accounts
14:55 webmind lypie, the klaphek wiki hardly ever gets spam since you have to register and the front page is locked
14:55 lypie webmind: but i'm still waiting...
14:56 lypie webmind: yeah. i agree with that policy entirely
14:56 webmind well it also works
14:56 lypie webmind: but the number of people that slap you back in he face for using it is just sad
14:56 lypie s/he/the/
14:56 webmind huh ?
14:56 webmind I just said that works
14:56 webmind against spam
14:56 lypie webmind: /me nods. that sounds a sane inbetween
14:57 lypie Juerd: agreed. they are useful
14:57 webmind as for syntax checking and ajax based previews I've got no idea what you are talking about
14:57 * lypie needs to try confluence at some point
14:57 lypie webmind: i never get the wiki syntax right. it always screws up on me. i'm a n00b
14:57 Juerd webmind: "ajax" is the new hyped term for realtime interaction in otherwise normal html pages.
14:58 Juerd webmind: Generally, it assumes javascript/xml communication. But that's unnecessarily complex in many cases.
14:58 lypie Juerd: i use ajaj in all cases ;) but people love their buzzwords!
14:58 Juerd aja?
14:58 Juerd j?
14:58 webmind lypie, well I find it's with every wiki a bit of getting used to.. but no too bad in mediawiki/docuwiki seems to be ok although sometimes a bit awkward
14:58 lypie webmind: mediawiki seems one of the most sane
14:59 lypie webmind: and the pages are pretty :P
14:59 Juerd I dislike kwiki syntax most. I just don't know how to format code in it.
14:59 Juerd Inline that is.
14:59 webmind docuwiki is kinda the same on the user end.. but a lot lighter
14:59 Kattana mediawiki is the origional isnt it.
14:59 webmind Juerd, ever tried moinmoin ?
14:59 Juerd I just want to be able to use stuff like $foo[0] without escaping anything.
14:59 webmind Kattana, original what ?
14:59 Juerd webmind: Yes, but I don't remember much of it. I think I found it terrible.
14:59 * chris2 likes markdown
14:59 Kattana wiki
15:00 webmind Juerd, it lacks all useful features and uses WikiWords
15:00 * webmind really really dislikes WikiWords
15:00 Juerd So do I.
15:00 chris2 WikiWords rule! :(
15:00 theorbtwo mediawiki is by no means the eldest.  OTOH, the popularity of WP probably did much to push the profile of wikis in general.
15:01 lypie chris2: wikiwords as in camel case?
15:01 chris2 yeah
15:01 lypie chris2: if so, i hate them
15:01 lypie [[blah]] is my preference
15:01 chris2 ick
15:02 chris2 but i'm special, i know
15:02 integral usemod is one of the older wikis
15:02 chris2 yeah
15:02 webmind chris2, how would you link your nick then ?
15:02 webmind ChRis ?
15:02 chris2 usemod is based on the first wiki, no?
15:02 chris2 ChrisTwo
15:03 integral it's certainly very old and based directly on the original wiki
15:03 chris2 and a hell of a mess :)
15:03 chris2 but very easy to install
15:03 Kattana mediawiki is the wiki of wikipedia, and the wikipedia founders came up with the wiki idea, so it should be the latest version of the origional?
15:03 chris2 nooo
15:04 chris2 c2.com was the first wiki
15:04 integral it still *is* the first wiki :)
15:04 chris2 yeah ;)
15:04 integral oddmuse is meant to be a sort of better written successor to usemod
15:04 chris2 too bad it doesnt show up on google :)
15:05 integral ah, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UseMod posits a history for usemod.
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16:12 mauke why doesn't my pugs build?
16:12 integral what's your error?
16:13 mauke lots of linker errors, probably because of:
16:13 mauke Building Pugs-6.2.11...
16:13 mauke /usr/bin/ar: dist/build/src/Data/Yaml/Syck_stub.o: No such file or directory
16:13 mauke /usr/bin/ar: dist/build/src/Pugs/Embed/Perl5_stub.o: No such file or directory
16:13 integral what's your PERL_EMBED?
16:13 integral are you building from clean?
16:14 mauke I don't have a PERL_EMBED (PUGS_EMBED=perl5), and this is from a fresh svn co ...
16:14 integral err, I mean PUGS_EMBED right
16:14 integral hrm
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16:15 mauke the _stub files exist, but they're in ./dist/build, not Data/Yaml|Pugs/Embed (which don't exist)
16:17 integral hmm, weird
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16:18 integral I have no idea what's going on
16:25 wolverian wow, tons of test errors on fbsd
16:26 wolverian t/builtins/arrays/push..................................ok 23/41pugs: internal error: EVACUATED object entered! Please report this as a bug to glasgow-haskell-bugs@haskell.org, or http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/ghc/
16:26 integral o_O
16:26 wolverian not me compiling it so maybe he forgot something elementary
16:26 wolverian another:
16:26 wolverian t/oo/methods/instance...................................ok 2/17pugs: internal error: stg_ap_pp_ret
16:27 * theorbtwo thinks a make clean all is called for.
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20:06 meppl so
20:06 meppl how can i get the reference of a method
20:06 meppl ?
20:06 meppl my $red = \$obj.foo();      doesnt work
20:07 meppl s/red/ref/
20:09 gaal $ref = &foo;
20:10 gaal if you want a closure bound to a particular invocant, make a closure explicitly:
20:10 gaal $ref = { $obj.foo() };
20:11 meppl :D
20:11 meppl thank you very much
20:12 gaal come to think of it I'm unsure how to invoke &foo in the first case. $obj.$ref is wrong.
20:13 * PerlJam wonders why anyone would want a ref to a method anyway
20:13 gaal jollymorphism!
20:14 PerlJam gaal: why is $obj.$ref wrong in that case?
20:15 gaal eh, I was unclear. maybe it is right p6. pugs doesn't parse it currently. :-)
20:15 meppl gaal, thats what i wanted --> <gaal> $ref = { $obj.foo() };
20:16 meppl yo, in fact i tried     $obj.$ref
20:16 meppl but pugs dont want that
20:16 meppl doesnt
20:17 gaal I lurve p6's lightweight closure syntax
20:18 PerlJam gaal: from S12 -- $obj.$methodname(1,2,3)
20:18 PerlJam looks like a bug that's ripe for fixing in pugs :-)
20:18 meppl perljam, i wanted to send a reference of a method to another thread
20:18 meppl for executing
20:21 PerlJam I suppose that $method $obj: should work too
20:21 PerlJam meppl: slinging objects between threads works nicely?
20:22 meppl i used     use perl5:Thread::Queue;
20:23 meppl                my $foo = Test2::Test.new(string1 => 'parrot +', string2 => 'pugs');
20:23 meppl                $queue.enqueue({ $foo.lprint() });
20:23 meppl                my $thread = async
20:23 meppl                {
20:23 meppl                        my $blubb = $queue.dequeue();
20:23 meppl                        $blubb();
20:23 meppl                };
20:23 meppl                $thread.join;
20:23 meppl so
20:23 meppl it worked
20:24 meppl so
20:26 meppl a GUI could start a CPU-intensiv procedur by this way?
20:27 gaal wow
20:27 gaal that's very cool :)
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