Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-02-26

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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07:14 audreyt greetings from OSDC.il!
07:15 dduncan greetings from Victoria.bc
07:16 gugod greeting from chupei.pm
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07:31 nothing_pasta hola
07:31 nothing_pasta from OSDC
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07:53 audreyt mm, lwall is on stage
07:53 audreyt (no electricity, brb)
07:59 nothing_pasta you lie
07:59 nothing_pasta i just took your electricity
08:09 * beppu_ is virtually and belatedly applauding for our $Larry;
08:15 dduncan I also applaud that which I can neither see nor hear
08:15 nothing_pasta actually he didn't get starting appluase
08:15 nothing_pasta only one person
08:15 nothing_pasta because nobody said "and now... LARRY WALL!!"
08:15 nothing_pasta he just came up
08:16 dduncan well, the real fans need no introduction ... they can see him and know who he is
08:18 nothing_pasta but he still didn't get applause =)
08:18 beppu_ dduncan, sometimes, you just have to believe.  ;-)
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08:30 Khisanth dduncan: the weirdest looking one in the crowd? :P
08:30 dduncan I'm not at the event; I'm at home
08:31 dduncan but I have met Larry in person at OSCON2005
08:32 dduncan my point earlier was that I consider Larry distinctive enough that no one else at an IT conference would look like him, most likely
08:32 dduncan and all Perl fans would have seen his picture multiple times
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09:08 audreyt actually, David Roundy and another darcs developer looks 80% like lwall
09:08 audreyt except perhaps a bit younger
09:08 dduncan is ... that ... so ?
09:09 audreyt yeah, I was very surprised during ICFP
09:09 ayrnieu You should have killed the doppleganger while you had the chance.
09:09 audreyt dopplegangers, you mean
09:09 * nnunley . o O ( There can be only one )
09:10 audreyt . o O ( doppler gangsters )
09:10 dduncan why ... the dopplegangers can become useful to Larry if someone targets him ... more false targets
09:11 dduncan sounds kind of like a spy story
09:11 dduncan maybe
09:11 dduncan and you know Larry likes spy stories
09:11 dduncan especially Man From Uncle
09:11 dduncan or Get Smart
09:12 dduncan anyway, I have to get gone
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09:42 gaal audreyt: do you happen to have a version of Spork that can do .pretty for colorizing code?
09:43 audreyt gaal: p5 code?
09:43 audreyt p6 code?
09:43 audreyt shell?
09:43 gaal i can colorize it myself
09:43 gaal the manpage mentions ".pretty" "coming soon"
09:43 audreyt don't, use VimMode
09:43 gaal and put in verbatim html?
09:44 audreyt .vim
09:44 gaal cool
09:44 audreyt #!perl6
09:44 audreyt ...
09:44 audreyt .vim
09:44 audreyt http://search.cpan.org/dist/Kwiki-VimMode/
09:44 gaal cheers
09:44 audreyt may need some tweaking to work for Spork, as this is a kwiki plugin
09:44 gaal okies
09:44 audreyt just steal the to_html wafl
09:47 nothingmuch joined perl6
09:47 nothingmuch audreyt: on feather, osdc/darcs_slides
09:47 TimToady joined perl6
09:47 audreyt cheers
09:47 nothingmuch naturally it's a darcs repo
09:47 nothingmuch i'm darcs pushing cached version s of the images
09:47 nothingmuch so pull them in a few
09:47 nothingmuch this sucks, i wanted to go to the python tut =(
09:47 audreyt TimToady: I want you slides... $0/$1 gets confused a lot :)
09:49 TimToady audreyt: not surprising, considering the talk was originally written before the great $1/$0 shift...
09:49 nothingmuch webcal://ical.mac.com/nothingmuch/OSDC::Israel::2006.ics
09:49 nothingmuch םםפד
09:49 nothingmuch oops
09:49 audreyt nothingmuch: I got your slides
09:49 nothingmuch grazie
09:49 nothingmuch darcs pull again
09:50 nothingmuch the image cache dir is in
09:50 audreyt nothingmuch: put it in your public_html
09:50 audreyt otherwise how do I pull
09:50 nothingmuch darcs pull
09:50 audreyt via ssh?
09:50 nothingmuch oh
09:50 nothingmuch yes
09:50 nothingmuch one sec
09:50 nothingmuch okay
09:51 nothingmuch public_html/osdc/darcs_slides
09:51 pasteling "audreyt" at 192.118.100.254 pasted "Reworked S06 macro patch: require COMPILING <$x>, q:code(:COMPILING), etc." (62 lines, 2.4K) at http://sial.org/pbot/16025
09:52 audreyt TimToady: the patch above (based on nothingmuch's) should summarize the separate subchunks we produced in the hackathon
09:52 nothingmuch this is based on my patch, right? i don't need to throw it away from svk
09:52 nothingmuch (i mean, will it merge correctly?)
09:52 nothingmuch oh wait
09:52 nothingmuch no it won't
09:52 nothingmuch sorry
09:52 nothingmuch audreyt: got the image cache?
09:54 audreyt nothingmuch: HTTP here blocks .gz
09:54 audreyt I'll just rsync
09:54 audreyt otoh, HTTP here supports DAV
09:54 nothingmuch fsssscccckkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk11112$!$%!!!!!!!!!!!!
09:54 audreyt so SVN>Darcs here
09:54 audreyt :D
09:54 nothingmuch heh
09:54 nothingmuch ssh it then
09:54 nothingmuch they opened that up
09:54 audreyt doing so
09:54 nothingmuch that's why i couldn't download that file
09:54 nothingmuch assholes
09:55 nothingmuch i hate firewalls, and even more so the admins that abuse them
09:57 TimToady audreyt: looks good to me.  The require is fancy, but kinda "use vars"-ish when my $x := COMPILING::<$x> would probably be what most people would use.
09:57 audreyt TimToady: the generalization here is
09:57 audreyt =head1 Importing from a pseudo-package
09:58 audreyt You may also import symbols from the various pseudo-packages listed in S02,
09:58 audreyt which behaves as if all their symbols are in the export list:
09:58 audreyt    # same as my ($IN, $OUT, $ERR) ::= ($*IN, $*OUT, $*ERR)
09:58 audreyt    use GLOBAL <$IN $OUT $ERR>;
09:58 audreyt (if okay with you, this goes into S11)
09:58 TimToady Yes, but what's a pseudo package?  I think any require has to know whether it still needs to slurp a .pm, and these just happen to be born unslurpable.
09:59 audreyt as you cannot declare a module with that name and expect it to work
09:59 audreyt so the only part that needs to be speccted is that ::GLOBAL::EXPORT is always just ::GLOBAL
10:00 TimToady Yep.  It basically looks fine to me, and as long as you understand the require requirements, I don't mind if it's somewhat terse.
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10:05 * TimToady wonders what he should say about p5-to-p5 on Tuesday...
10:05 TimToady Isn't there a cheat sheat in pugs somewhere that lists p5-to-p6 transformations?
10:06 pasteling "audreyt" at 192.118.100.254 pasted "S11: Importing from Pseudo Packages" (26 lines, 858B) at http://sial.org/pbot/16026
10:06 audreyt TimToady: looks good?
10:06 audreyt TimToady: docs/other/porting_howto
10:07 audreyt but they are somewhat outdated
10:07 audreyt (and needs to be ported to docs/Perl6/Perl5/Porting.pod)
10:07 audreyt anyone up for such a task? :)
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10:12 TimToady audrey: s/attempt to load C<GLOBAL.pm>/attempt to load, for example, C<GLOBAL.pm>/
10:12 TimToady Other than that, looks fine.
10:13 audreyt TimToady++ # committed
10:14 mauke good morning
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10:15 audreyt hm, bsb is not here
10:15 mauke is svn pugs broken for anyone else?
10:16 audreyt no... how come?
10:16 audreyt nopaste the error?
10:16 mauke http://rafb.net/paste/results/BaXrPv32.html
10:17 integral is that building from clean with the same PUGS_EMBED options that you normally use?
10:18 mauke that's with PUGS_EMBED=perl5
10:18 audreyt that looks incremental
10:18 audreyt I'll attempt a rebuild to confirm
10:18 mauke I can make clean and run it all again but it'll fail at the same point
10:19 audreyt hm, something tripped _stub.o generation
10:19 audreyt can you try
10:19 audreyt ./Setup configure
10:19 audreyt ./Setup build
10:19 audreyt ?
10:19 audreyt (it builds here)
10:20 mauke sec, rebuilding from make distclean now
10:21 audreyt sorry for the pain
10:21 audreyt try unoptimised
10:21 audreyt it's really fast now
10:21 audreyt as opposed to thrashing on .Run
10:23 mauke hey, that's what my new pc is for :-)
10:24 anatoly joined perl6
10:24 audreyt anatoly: hey
10:25 TimToady I just know someone's gonna suggest that require GLOBAL <$IN> be made mandatory rather than falling back to $*...
10:25 audreyt yeah, that's the logical next step :)
10:25 audreyt though I'm working on my talk, so that's gonna wait
10:25 audreyt use GLOBAL <$IN> # works too
10:26 anatoly hey audreyt
10:27 audreyt anatoly: sanity-check http://xrl.us/j7no ? :)
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10:28 gaal yo anatoly :)
10:28 anatoly yo gaal :)
10:29 anatoly audreyt: sure, looking
10:29 gaal audreyt: how do I svk praise, but look back into the parent repo?
10:29 arcady mauke r9188 unoptimized compiles just fine here
10:30 audreyt gaal: svk praise --remoterev /pugs/trunk/path/to/file
10:30 gaal thanks
10:30 audreyt np :)
10:31 mauke audreyt: ./Setup build seems to succeed (last line: /usr/bin/ar: creating dist/build/libHSPugs-6.2.11.a)
10:31 audreyt mauke: okay...
10:32 audreyt then "make" again (without clearing)
10:32 audreyt I think it's just a bad incremental build startpoint
10:32 arcady incremental builds don't always work so well...
10:32 mauke failed
10:33 audreyt mauke: hunt for
10:33 audreyt $(RM_RF) dist/build/src/Data/Yaml
10:33 mauke $ find . -name Syck_stub.o
10:33 audreyt in Makefile
10:33 mauke ./dist/build/Syck_stub.o
10:33 audreyt and remove them
10:33 audreyt hmmmm
10:33 mauke the file is there, it's just not in the right directory
10:33 audreyt have you upgraded Cabal?
10:33 audreyt I see.
10:33 mauke no idea
10:34 mauke looks like I have dev-haskell/cabal-1.1.3
10:34 audreyt yeah, we only tested on 1.1.2 and 1.1.4 I think, hmm
10:34 audreyt it's like the old MakeMaker days
10:35 audreyt my talk is coming up
10:35 audreyt but I'll resume fixing it
10:35 audreyt meanwhile
10:35 audreyt bbl &
10:35 TimToady audreyt: you plannin' to eat lunch?
10:37 gaal TimToady: did you pick up vouchers?
10:37 gaal for lunch
10:37 TimToady Yep, got vouchers.
10:38 anatoly ah, audreyt's gone. gaal, how long is her haskell talk supposed to be? :)
10:39 gaal anatoly: 60 min
10:39 anatoly haha :)
10:40 gaal TimToady: audreyt's helping nothingmuch set up the laptop
10:40 gaal anatoly: that's fine, under the AudreyT the audience is overclocked as well
10:42 anatoly gaal: it is, but not nearly enough to grok these 275 slides. That's one slide every 15 seconds.
10:43 gaal TimToady: <audreyt>: TimToady: yes
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10:43 gaal anatoly: <audreyt>: that's plenty
10:43 clkao oops. jsperl5 prelude no longer compiles
10:43 clkao pugs: src/Pugs/AST/Internals/Instances.hs:(684,4)-(691,63): Non-exhaustive patterns in function showPerl5
10:46 levin___ joined perl6
10:46 TimToady well, I'm using up battery, so I better shut down and go to lunch.
10:47 TimToady Oh, it's not lunch time yet...
10:49 anatoly audreyt: great slides. if you're looking for errors and typos, I didn't see any. If for suggestions, best thing I could think of is putting laziness, lazy lists, fibs and maybe a bit more about laziness right after referential transparency stuff and before monads
10:50 anatoly audreyt: then you have something to keep them going, as it is when you reach monads they still have no clue what good any of this is for, and their brains shut down and never boot back up after that.
10:57 gaal poor sheep
10:57 gaal anatoly: <audrety>: okay
10:58 gaal TimToady: we're in nothingmuch's talk, to end 13:05
10:59 lumi 13:15 I think?
10:59 TimToady I'm out in the lobby, feel free to glom me en passant.
11:01 gaal ooh camel katamari
11:03 anatoly audreyt: for "more laziness", would be nice to show a few slides on how a lambda is passed around and only executed lazily when needed. examples of map with toUpper etc. are not enough because they're felt to be builtin stuff which is allowed magic. the general power is not felt. and if you have a lambda being passed around, there's the great place to stress how it's a closure like perl's anon sub holding a my var, only much more general :)
11:07 gaal lumi: i think today's schedule is different by 10 min from tomorrow's
11:07 lumi oic
11:10 lumi Although my model seems to fit reality better
11:12 gaal apparently the printed sched needs adjustment as well, though perhaps -- too late
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12:44 gaal rehi
12:44 gaal audreyt's giving her haskell talk
12:46 nothingmuch joined perl6
12:46 nothingmuch lumi: ping
12:47 lypanov joined perl6
12:47 lypanov nuts
12:47 lypanov gah
12:47 * lypanov must stop typing while joining
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12:49 anatoly rehi
12:49 anatoly how's the talk going?
12:51 nothingmuch i'm learning python
12:51 anatoly hey nothingmuch
12:51 nothingmuch audrey's talk seems like it's going to be wonderful
12:51 gaal anatoly: going well, we're in QuickCheck already
12:51 nothingmuch (i had a rehearsel)
12:51 anatoly how was darcs received?
12:51 lumi I\m learning QuickCheck
12:51 nothingmuch quickcheck?
12:51 nothingmuch wtf? i didn't get to see that
12:52 lumi No?
12:52 lumi It's the opposite of HUnit :P
12:52 gaal nothingmuch: tests w/random test cases
12:52 nothingmuch i guess the rehersal was cut short ;-)
12:52 nothingmuch i know what it is, i just didn't see it in the slides
12:52 gaal we skipped a few cool monads
12:52 gaal but are entering Parsec now
12:52 anatoly :)
12:52 nothingmuch this talk is very amusing
12:52 nothingmuch some java guy told the speaker:
12:53 nothingmuch "it's stupid! why are there no copies in your stupid python thing! this is very non standard"
12:53 nothingmuch (python defaults to binding for assignment, it seems)
12:53 gaal no copies?
12:53 gaal oh
12:53 lumi Java defaults to binding for assignment as well
12:53 gaal how'd the speaker resond?
12:53 nothingmuch ofcourse, there *are* copies
12:53 lumi Reference semantics
12:53 nothingmuch he is ast the ignoring step
12:53 gaal denial!
12:53 gaal bargaining!
12:53 anatoly "java. where every man _is_ an island"
12:53 nothingmuch the *other* members of the audience told the java guy to shut up =)
12:53 nothingmuch haha
12:54 nothingmuch ast = at
12:54 gaal even if he does say jeh***<boulder>
12:54 lumi Is it aan ignoring step, or phase?
12:54 nothingmuch phase, i guess
12:54 nothingmuch he argued before
12:54 nothingmuch then he said "ok, whatever"
12:54 nothingmuch and at the "your stupid python" event he just didn't naswer
12:55 nothingmuch this is second-row-guy syndrome, only much worse
12:55 lumi Learn anything new yet?
12:55 * nothingmuch ?
12:55 lumi Of Python
12:55 nothingmuch yes
12:55 nothingmuch the higher order help function
12:55 nothingmuch it takes any function and prints it's help
12:55 nothingmuch we talked about doing this in perl 6
12:55 nothingmuch as a trait
12:56 nothingmuch or attr
12:56 nothingmuch sub foo : doc("....") { }
12:56 lumi Yeah, ST has that
12:56 gaal or $=POD
12:56 gaal modulo twigil?
12:56 nothingmuch $=POD is lexical data
12:56 nothingmuch attr is semantic
12:56 nothingmuch i guess we want sub foo : doc($=POD) or something, right?
12:56 nothingmuch or an easier macro
12:56 nothingmuch or is $=POD smarter than that?
12:57 gaal that would make it top-heavy, on the syntactic level it can't be so unweildly
12:57 nothingmuch like &function.pod ?
12:57 nothingmuch yeah, i guess
12:57 nothingmuch they have it as a void context string as the first expr
12:57 lumi sub add($x,$y) is doc "I add two numbers" # ?
12:57 nothingmuch i guess we could do the same if pod directives are rvalues
12:57 gaal ingy had some ideas for Perldoc
12:57 nothingmuch lumi: same thing... it was all discussed
12:57 nothingmuch ingy has a lot of ideas ;-)
12:58 gaal yay for STM in perl 6 :)
12:58 nothingmuch yayayayayayay!
12:58 lumi I like SmallTalk's Fight Club style comments
12:58 nothingmuch if you got to STM in that talk
12:58 gaal just did
12:58 nothingmuch and audrey's slides/speaking is as clear as it was in the rehersal than she is an even better speaker than I thought
12:59 nothingmuch then again, i didn't get to see takahashi employed in practice, just in theory/video
12:59 nothingmuch the sxip guy had a lovely takahashi-esque talk
12:59 nothingmuch on identity 2.0 or something like that
12:59 gaal it is -- though i wonder what it's like for people who've never seen haskell
12:59 nothingmuch gaal: from the way bindings/monads/laziness were explained it sounds good
12:59 nothingmuch i was a bit weary of pattern matching
12:59 anatoly nothingmuch, that was a wodnerful talk yes, on identity 2.0
12:59 nothingmuch it was explained too vaguely IMHO
13:00 gaal takahashi looks much less shallow-populistic than i thought
13:00 nothingmuch anatoly: i wonder how much time he had to rehearse it
13:00 nothingmuch gaal: yeah... i thought so too
13:00 nothingmuch then i remembered that the speaker doesn't read out the slides
13:00 nothingmuch like audrey said yesterday, takahashi forces you to explain
13:00 anatoly nothingmuch: yeah.. it was pretty light on substance too when you thought about it. but great acting and setup.
13:00 gaal i'm more convinced black on white is much better than the reverse now
13:01 nothingmuch anatoly: not really... for someone without identity mgmt background (the target audience was non programmers, IIRC) i think it was pretty impressive
13:01 nothingmuch but i agree that for our kind, people who tend to generalize automatically it was pretty moot
13:01 anatoly nothingmuch: hmm... maybe if non-programmers, ok
13:01 gaal nothingmuch: toly's a mathematitian, everything he understands is trivial :)
13:01 nothingmuch gaal: it's more boomish
13:01 nothingmuch gaal: =)
13:01 anatoly gaal: shut up :)
13:01 nothingmuch anyway, that's why i messed up the perl slides
13:02 nothingmuch err, darcs slides
13:02 nothingmuch i removed all useless english scaffolds (grammar)
13:02 gaal first cell phone call in the day!
13:02 anatoly maybe it's me.
13:02 gaal people are well behaved here
13:02 lumi There was one earlier
13:02 gaal HSP is cool
13:02 lumi iirc
13:02 anatoly ah, you mean cellphone ring, not your cellphone.
13:02 nothingmuch the java guy had a phone call ;-)
13:03 nothingmuch HSP?
13:03 gaal heh
13:03 gaal haskell server pages
13:03 anatoly yeah
13:03 nothingmuch ah.. right
13:03 nothingmuch never saw that
13:03 gaal quite spectacular
13:03 nothingmuch just heard of it
13:03 nothingmuch i should have stayed
13:03 nothingmuch i thought it was just a haskell tutorial
13:03 gaal but like a lot on the web it probably ends up sucking in practice
13:04 * nothingmuch mutters something about Catalyst and how it doesn't ;-)
13:04 gaal she's now on the slide demonstrating gui and web have a lot in common
13:04 nothingmuch this python stuff is uninspiring
13:04 nothingmuch it's at the intellectual level of a language i would implement as a toy
13:04 gaal and how if you write in HSP you can do either with the same code (!)
13:04 nothingmuch except it's very broad
13:04 nothingmuch and a complete implementation
13:04 lumi Broad like an accent?
13:04 nothingmuch but it's really very.... err.... boring
13:04 nothingmuch ugh
13:04 nothingmuch i want to go back
13:04 gaal but of course you are limited to only the basic widgets
13:05 nothingmuch too late though
13:05 nothingmuch only 10 mins left
13:05 lumi The interesting languages are in the *other* room
13:05 gaal nothingmuch: work on your slides then
13:05 nothingmuch no, i'm tired
13:05 nothingmuch i need a bigger break
13:05 nothingmuch i'll start in the next slot
13:05 * nothingmuch is still stressed
13:05 nothingmuch the talks make me really nervous
13:05 gaal the guy in front of me is running aptitude update from hamakor, heh
13:05 nothingmuch stage fright and all
13:05 nothingmuch hamakor have a nice mirror =)
13:05 nothingmuch it's pretty fast
13:06 gaal esp if you're on actcom ;)
13:08 nothingmuch python has an amazing itneractive shell though
13:08 nothingmuch syntax highlighting
13:08 nothingmuch readline support
13:08 nothingmuch function autocompletion
13:08 nothingmuch intellisense
13:08 nothingmuch syntax *ERROR* highlighting
13:08 lumi Steal that, then :P
13:08 nothingmuch (very clear)
13:08 nothingmuch yes =)
13:09 nothingmuch i think i will download a dashboard widget with a timer
13:09 nothingmuch and call it talkdoom
13:09 nothingmuch i.e. the point in time by which your slides have to be ready
13:09 mauke OCaml highlights errors, too
13:12 anatoly bbl
13:13 nothingmuch one nice thing about python the language is that so far (i don't know how synthetic this is) most of the examples were not very ugly
13:13 nothingmuch that is, even when people asked simple questions, the examples looked pretty good
13:13 nothingmuch in perl 5 that doesn't always happen
13:13 nothingmuch in perl 6 otoh, it's beautiful, but people won't understand it immediately
13:13 nothingmuch in python the only one way to do it seems good enough for most things, if it's sugary
13:14 nothingmuch and if not you can also use the other (dumb) way to do it, i guess, but it'll be easy to explain
13:15 nothingmuch i'm surprised that haskell doesn't highlight in ghci
13:16 lumi There's no thesis in it
13:16 gaal everything will come out whatever Function is colored as :)
13:16 nothingmuch ?
13:16 nothingmuch oh
13:17 nothingmuch err, don't be silly =)
13:17 nothingmuch we have haskell vimmode, that's good enough
13:17 lumi Yeah, there's types, too
13:17 nothingmuch and do
13:17 gaal colorcode every variable by its type?
13:17 nothingmuch i have a nicer idea
13:17 nothingmuch color code every variable based on it's lexical scope
13:17 nothingmuch like a map colorer
13:18 gaal that does sound useful, yes
13:18 nothingmuch so that if there is a binding, it's colored the same way as all it's uses
13:18 nothingmuch but if it's masked, it'll be a different color
13:18 nothingmuch hmm
13:18 nothingmuch i guess, i gave python it's chance, i don't think i'll study it
13:18 nothingmuch is this fare to diss it now?
13:18 nothingmuch fair
13:21 gaal well done, audreyt
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13:32 audreyt gaal: thanks :)
13:32 nothingmuch joined perl6
13:32 nothingmuch hola
13:33 ilya666 Finland -- Sweden 1:0 after first period
13:34 audreyt mm, this FUSE talk is actually interesting
13:35 audreyt too bad I don't get to use it
13:35 audreyt (yet)
13:35 integral do we have a pugs/p6 FUSE binding? 8-)
13:35 audreyt SyntaxNinja has a Haskell binding
13:35 audreyt so we should really revive use haskell:Module
13:36 nothingmuch =)
13:36 audreyt (or use c:header)
13:36 xerox Which FUSE talk?
13:36 nothingmuch wow, that would be a slick FFI interface
13:36 nothingmuch my dermatitis is erupting =(
13:36 audreyt xerox: we are in http://osdc.org.il/schedule.html
13:36 nothingmuch stress of talks is != good
13:36 xerox Ah, okay.
13:37 lumi Ah, you write PHP in lisp!
13:37 nothingmuch yes =)
13:37 nothingmuch lumi and I are in the codegen talk
13:38 lumi Nonono, never touch generated code by hand!
13:38 nothingmuch i agree
13:38 nothingmuch but he said something slightly different
13:38 nothingmuch he said "my generator is not good enough some of the time"
13:38 nothingmuch "it's too much effort to fix it"
13:38 nothingmuch "i'd rather fix it by hand when it breaks, which is not often"
13:38 gaal so, can we mount perl6 modulespace via a fs implemented in p6? :-P
13:39 nothingmuch yes
13:39 lumi Okey, but then you need to read its output, every time, instead of getting it right once
13:39 nothingmuch the module autoloader from CPAN thing could be just a virtual file system in Perl 6
13:39 lumi Heh
13:39 gaal use Meta;
13:39 nothingmuch lumi: yes, but his point is good: it's good enough, no need to push it
13:39 nothingmuch if it was *really* a problem, he would fix it
13:40 nothingmuch at least that's what he implied
13:40 nothingmuch (like, an in practice problem)
13:40 lumi There's "indent" everywhere.. He should read the Haskell Pretty
13:40 nothingmuch =)
13:40 nothingmuch we'll let him know
13:40 gaal has anybody seen Ran around? I just noticed he has a talk today (yay)
13:40 nothingmuch maybe he's high
13:40 gaal (ran's talks)++
13:40 lumi nil
13:40 nothingmuch yeah, they rock
13:45 wilx joined perl6
13:49 lumi Generated JS can be size-optimized (translates into $$ not paid for bandwidth)
13:54 gaal $$ means vretical cat in Pretty :)
13:59 lumi I like cats in any orientation
14:00 audreyt mm landscape cats
14:00 nothingmuch =)
14:00 nothingmuch 50 uses for a dead cat: pretty printing
14:00 nothingmuch (spread vertically)
14:00 lumi Heh
14:00 lumi Ew
14:00 lumi You just apply the cat virtually to two docs?
14:01 lumi Vertically (sorry)
14:02 nothingmuch sorry
14:02 nothingmuch yes
14:02 nothingmuch that's what the butcherknife operator is for
14:03 lumi Ew -> Ew
14:03 nothingmuch or the schnitzel hammer one: []---
14:03 xerox schröendinger's cats
14:05 gaal my first guess when I saw $$ was that ($$) f = (iterate f) !! 2
14:05 xerox heh
14:05 xerox Maybe ($$) = deepSeq
14:06 gaal ($$$$$$$) = y -- dammit
14:06 gaal fuse is really nice
14:06 xerox gaal, ($$) f = (!! 2) . iterate f
14:06 audreyt hm, you mean (!! 2) . iterate f
14:06 xerox Dang.
14:06 gaal argh
14:06 audreyt heh
14:07 gaal well in that case, pl it
14:07 audreyt they even align
14:07 xerox Indeed :-)
14:07 * xerox high-fives audreyt
14:07 * audreyt smiles
14:07 audreyt gaal: ((!! 2) .) . iterate
14:07 * gaal shares the high-five in realspace
14:08 xerox It is a pattern.
14:08 xerox To compose a unary function with an n-ary function, you compose n (.) together.
14:08 * gaal is reminded that we need a bot here
14:08 gaal whee!
14:08 gaal xerox++ -- haskell carg^H^Hpatterns
14:09 audreyt mm, cargo patterns
14:09 xerox Yay.
14:09 xerox (What would 'carg..' mean?)
14:10 audreyt cargo culting^W^Wpatterns
14:10 audreyt gaal: how's your talk?
14:10 gaal um, ah, eh, oh...
14:10 gaal slide 14 :)
14:10 xerox "The Cargo Cults believed that manufactured western goods ('cargo') were created by ancestral spirits and intended for Melanesian people."
14:11 gaal i should go to more boring talks
14:11 gaal so i have time in vi
14:11 gaal xerox: Feynman coined that, I believe
14:11 audreyt gaal: maybe we move out from the talks after this one
14:11 audreyt so I can _also_ work on my talk tomorrow
14:11 audreyt of which I've produced 0
14:12 xerox gaal: whoa!  Do you have any reference about that?
14:12 audreyt and is keynote
14:12 gaal xerox: it's in Surely you're Joking, I think
14:12 xerox "ncidentally, Richard Feynman wrote a great essay on cargo cult science."
14:12 xerox +I
14:12 * audreyt sees bsb looking at her slides again and smiling mysteriously in her front row
14:12 gaal my $talk is keynote;
14:12 gaal well
14:12 gaal audrey's talk is
14:12 gaal not mine happily :)
14:13 gaal we can add a scoping keyword that only installs a symbol in somebody else's pad
14:13 gaal their $talk is keynote;
14:13 audreyt my $talk is keynote is export(:THEIR);
14:14 * xerox fails to decypher
14:14 gaal that also leaves $talk in this scope :)
14:14 bsb I was just wondering how the hell <img src=a /> works as Haskell code
14:14 gaal bsb, preprocessors :)
14:15 azuroth legal_alcohol++
14:16 lumi I guessed preprocessor..
14:16 gaal yay, there's ran
14:24 ilya666 Finland -- Sweden second period 2:2
14:24 cognominal__ joined perl6
14:26 KingDiamond joined perl6
14:36 nothingmuch joined perl6
14:36 nothingmuch audreyt: ping
14:36 nothingmuch wrt scrhodinger's cat: between hitting it and removing the blood from your eyes you don't know if it's alive or dead
14:37 nothingmuch until you make an observation ;-)
14:37 gaal nothingmuch: she's w/me working on slides
14:37 nothingmuch sah
14:37 nothingmuch ah
14:37 gaal but is disconnected
14:37 nothingmuch where are you guys?
14:37 gaal if not urgent, later :)
14:37 gaal one floor up
14:37 nothingmuch hmm
14:37 nothingmuch i'll join you, my slides are related
14:37 nothingmuch (this is for gaal's talk, right?)
14:37 nothingmuch if you don't mind ofcourse
14:38 gaal cool
14:38 nothingmuch it's just that I was going to ask for help myself
14:38 nothingmuch okay
14:38 nothingmuch see you in ~10 mins
14:38 gaal k i really need to concentrate
14:39 nothingmuch /devoice nothingmuch
14:44 michimueller joined perl6
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14:52 ingy hi nothingmuch
15:02 hoowa joined perl6
15:04 hoowa tang u still here?
15:24 Juerd "OpenOffice has *multiple thousands* of regression tests", the guy says :)
15:25 Juerd My guess is that Pugs wins easily ;)
15:38 xinming hmm, class A { has $.a = 3; method a { return 5 }; method t1 { $.a }; method t2 { $.a() } }; will there any difference between t1 and t2?
15:45 orafu joined perl6
15:46 TimToady xinming: those should be equivalent.  All $.foo are virtual accessors.
15:47 xinming TimToady: hmm, so, there is no way to get the attribute value $.a?
15:48 TimToady sure, say $!a instead if you really mean the attribute.  But if you're going to do infrastructure like that, you should probably be using a submethod instead.
15:48 xinming thanks.
15:49 audreyt TimToady: nothingmuch raises this point:
15:50 bsb joined perl6
15:50 audreyt my &code := sub {...} # see, no semicolon
15:50 audreyt my $var = %foo<bar>; # this is mandatory
15:50 audreyt my $var = %foo{'bar'} # can we make this mandatory as well?
15:50 audreyt I think only closing '}' for circumfix gets the EOL treatment, not postcirfumfix
15:51 TimToady Hmm.  well it *is* a closure, if you use it like one...
15:51 audreyt %foo{my $x;}
15:51 TimToady you can say %foo{ my $x = $y } for instance.
15:51 audreyt indeed
15:51 audreyt so maybe that is all well after all
15:52 TimToady the tricky thing will be if someone says
15:52 TimToady %foo{$x}
15:52 TimToady + 42
15:52 audreyt what about the "use GLOBALS"-under-use-strict-so-we-get-$x-always-lexically-bound idea? :)
15:53 audreyt mm, but actually
15:53 TimToady I've probably had enough time to get used to it.  :-)
15:53 audreyt ooh :)
15:53 audreyt TimToady++
15:53 audreyt my &code := sub { $x }
15:53 audreyt         .assuming();
15:53 audreyt same problem
15:54 audreyt so probably same solution?
15:54 audreyt (i.e. both gets implicit EOLed)
15:55 TimToady at one point I was reserving _ for that, so %foo{$x}_ would eat whitespace.
15:55 audreyt that's exactly like VB
15:55 clkao audreyt: got time to see why jsbackend can't compile prelude anymore?
15:55 TimToady it it?
15:55 TimToady is it?
15:55 audreyt clkao: will do after tomorrow's keynote of mine
15:55 clkao :)
15:56 audreyt TimToady: http://pugscode.org/osdc/vb.xul?page=41
15:56 audreyt 100% identical :)
15:56 KingDiamond joined perl6
15:57 audreyt lumi: .xul and safari does not mix
15:58 Juerd 17:03 < audreyt> my $var = %foo{'bar'} # can we make this mandatory as well?
15:58 TimToady audreyt: I'm not sure VBishness is a recommendation...  :/
15:58 Juerd You kind of need that, for postfix if, right?
15:59 Juerd Isn't }-implies-; more useful if the corresponding { wasn't on the same line?
16:00 Juerd Oh, I get another blob in now (connectivity here is very, very bad)
16:00 Juerd You already discessed this...
16:00 Juerd I don't like _.
16:00 Juerd (at all!)
16:01 * Juerd would, to be honest, prefer to always type ;, if the alternative is to in surprising cases have to type _.
16:01 lumi Sacred code?
16:06 audreyt but I dislike the A03 lonely-curly-in-a-line idea
16:06 audreyt as it will require the parser to remember things for each line
16:07 audreyt i.e. whether it has seen some token already for this line
16:07 audreyt as compared to EOL impliedness, which is only referring to forward information
16:07 audreyt (and hence good for one-passness)
16:08 nothingmuch joined perl6
16:08 audreyt Juerd: the implied-; is useful for
16:08 audreyt sub f { 3 }
16:08 audreyt even though they were on the same lnie
16:08 nothingmuch joined perl6
16:09 nothingmuch my conclusion about ran:
16:09 nothingmuch either he knows everything
16:09 nothingmuch in advance
16:09 nothingmuch or thinks really fast
16:09 nothingmuch that was a very elegant definition
16:09 nothingmuch "meta configuration"
16:09 nothingmuch and it took him 3 seconds and no retries
16:09 gaal he did think of that one
16:09 gaal in advance
16:09 nothingmuch ah
16:10 nothingmuch oops
16:10 gaal i really like how he presents stuff
16:10 * nothingmuch iis dyslexic, please remember that reading is not a natural process for $?SELF
16:10 gaal oh, I know that only because I remember discussing it with him a few months ago ;-)
16:11 justatheory joined perl6
16:11 nothingmuch hehe
16:14 * audreyt can't help but think of Harmony, which can solve this elegantly in a one-pass fashion
16:15 TimToady If we really wanted to drive people nuts, we'd say } assumes ; only if the next line is not more indented than this one.
16:15 audreyt http://alliance.seas.upenn.edu/~harmony/cgi-bin/demo.cgi
16:15 audreyt TimToady: aw, I prefer layout to be a separate pass
16:15 audreyt having to remember how each line indented is a pain in an onepass scanner
16:16 audreyt (just ask ingy)
16:16 nothingmuch mooseness is good
16:16 nothingmuch the moosness property pattern is like the DWIM language
16:16 nothingmuch you should be able to say
16:16 nothingmuch foo.property = moose in your cfg
16:16 nothingmuch and get DWIM
16:16 pasteling "audreyt" at 192.118.100.254 pasted "S03: Make non-qualified variables lexical-only by default." (44 lines, 1.5K) at http://sial.org/pbot/16030
16:17 audreyt TimToady: looks good?
16:17 audreyt s/limit the lookup the/limit the lookup to the/
16:17 nothingmuch isn't /}\s*$/ ending a block eq '};', and '}\s*$' ending anything else eq '}' ?
16:18 nothingmuch i mean, blockwise is the only way I'd expect it
16:18 nothingmuch it's a simple rule
16:18 nothingmuch (for humans)
16:18 nothingmuch what I'm afraid of is that when it does bite someone, you need to explain why it did that
16:19 nothingmuch and indentation sensitivity, or anay other heavy DWIM is.... err... hard to explain
16:19 nothingmuch especially if you use e.g. perltidy
16:19 audreyt the current rule is that it adds a semicolon iff a semicolon can terminate a statement there.
16:19 audreyt i.e. if we are in a statement-list position.
16:19 nothingmuch (although arguably perltidy with Perl::Grammar is easier to write in a way that is not going to screw stuff up)
16:19 nothingmuch hmm
16:19 nothingmuch that's a good DWIM, i guess
16:19 audreyt glad you agree
16:20 TimToady so you can always parenthesize to hide the DWIM.
16:20 nothingmuch i.e., try to parse '}' as '};', and as long as the next statement (till a real ';') is OK don't backtrack?
16:20 audreyt yup, which is probably the most inexpensive disambiguator
16:21 nothingmuch yes, but probably good enough
16:21 nothingmuch since we assume caching and separate compilation anyway, if we're going to be fast and stuff
16:21 audreyt nothingmuch: more like, don't do implicit-semicolon if we are inside some expression-level bracketing construct.
16:21 audreyt (which can be succintly defined in both Parsec and OpTable)
16:22 nothingmuch (optimizing is probably going to be much more expensive than this DWIM, but Perl 6 almost *requires* it based on it's arcitecture)
16:22 nothingmuch hmm
16:22 nothingmuch fair enough
16:22 nothingmuch sounds easier to implement
16:22 audreyt it better be :D
16:22 TimToady I'm not really concerned with parse speed--I want it to look clean (on average)
16:22 nothingmuch it still means the same thing
16:22 nothingmuch TimToady: we didn't expect otherwise ;-)
16:23 audreyt nothingmuch: crucial difference is that this is determined at semicolon-newline site
16:23 audreyt so it can commit there
16:23 audreyt instead of waiting for some backtrack
16:23 nothingmuch yeah
16:23 nothingmuch okay
16:23 audreyt which is extensive as it'd set up a prompt
16:23 audreyt s/extensive/expensive/
16:23 nothingmuch i'm thinking this:
16:23 nothingmuch ';' is a disambiguation
16:23 nothingmuch it says "this is definately the end of stmt"
16:24 nothingmuch do we have the opposite?
16:24 nothingmuch "this is definately not the end fof stmt?"
16:24 nothingmuch does it even make sense?
16:24 audreyt that's what _ would be
16:24 nothingmuch i'm not sure...
16:24 audreyt but I agree it looks a bit too vbesque
16:25 audreyt (VB, btw, is as of 2005 finally parsable by a one-pass BNF.)
16:25 nothingmuch . o O ( i hope they don't propose \\\n
16:25 audreyt       )
16:27 lypanov hehe
16:27 kanru joined perl6
16:29 TimToady audreyt: snippit looks good--do we need to find the fallback verbiage elsewhere and countermand it?
16:29 audreyt it's on the para directly above it
16:29 TimToady are people going to the cafeteria again for dinner?
16:29 audreyt so I think it's safe
16:29 audreyt (already looked elsewhere)
16:29 audreyt I'll look again at dinner
16:30 TimToady audreyt: nothingmuch informs me that there's wifi in the restaurant.  (and food)
16:30 TimToady nothingmuch recants
16:30 audreyt ok. I've committed the S02, and we can go now
16:31 TimToady I'm probably thinking of Apocalypse $IN then.
16:41 kanru joined perl6
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17:38 Limbic_Region hmmm - anyone know why every program I run results in "user error (Error loading precompiled Prelude: Left "syntax error: line 2, column 2"
17:38 Limbic_Region then it reloads from source and works fine?
17:41 hcchien joined perl6
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19:28 gaal joined perl6
19:33 gaal Limbic_Region: can you nopaste the first lines of src/Pugs/PreludePC.yml
19:33 gaal ?
19:34 Limbic_Region sure
19:34 Limbic_Region perlbot nopaste
19:34 perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
19:35 pasteling "Limbic_Region" at 24.35.57.240 pasted "First few lines of src/Pugs/PreludePC.yml" (59 lines, 1.3K) at http://sial.org/pbot/16037
19:36 gaal looks okay
19:38 Limbic_Region this happened after a nmake realclean; svk pull; perl Makefile.PL; nmake
19:38 Limbic_Region though the svk pull did result in over a 100 revision updates
19:38 * Limbic_Region ducks
19:40 gaal sorry, no immediate idea why this should happen and we're still all writing slides
19:41 Limbic_Region okies
19:48 nothingmuch joined perl6
19:49 gaal nothingmuch: yo
19:49 nothingmuch yo yo yo
19:49 gaal it's faaaat albert
19:49 nothingmuch what was the mc joke?
19:50 lypanov_ joined perl6
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20:08 lypanov_ is now known as lypanov
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20:11 justatheory joined perl6
20:13 xerox audreyt: how is it called that tool to do XML inside .hs ?
20:17 gaal HSP? LINQ?
20:17 xerox Hmm.
20:18 xerox ...the one that lets you do f <IMG ..> = ..
20:18 gaal xerox: let me peek at the slides to refresh my mem
20:18 justatheory joined perl6
20:18 xerox Danke.
20:18 salty-horse left perl6
20:21 gaal XTC?
20:26 xerox Any url?
20:27 gaal it's hsp that does it. http://www.cs.chalmers.se/~d00nibro/hsp/thesis.pdf
20:27 gaal omg he was like asking me for a citation and I was like go read this thesis lol
20:27 xerox Thank you.
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22:14 nothingmuch joined perl6
22:15 nothingmuch does anybody want to help me group thing?
22:15 nothingmuch think?
22:15 avar the borg?;)
22:15 elmex joined perl6
22:17 lumi Group think what?
22:21 nothingmuch you're awake =D
22:21 nothingmuch my slies, ofcourse
22:21 nothingmuch slides
22:23 lumi I'll help with your sly slides
22:24 azuroth a horse, of course
22:25 hew joined perl6
22:25 nothingmuch okay
22:26 nothingmuch lumi: did you get darcs at the end of my talk or before that?
22:26 nothingmuch ;-)
22:33 hew Reading over [EAS]5, I'm wondering for a grammar like:
22:33 hew  rule pattern          { <alternation> }
22:33 hew  rule alternation :w   { <conjunction> [q(|) <self>]? }
22:33 hew  rule conjunction :w   { <catenation>  [q(&) <self>]? }
22:33 hew  rule catenation  :w   { <term>* }
22:33 nothingmuch_ joined perl6
22:33 nothingmuch_ oops
22:33 nothingmuch_ i pulled out the cable
22:34 hew How would I flatten the degenerate(but common) case of 'term term' to just Pattern=>{Catenation=>[term, term]}
22:34 nothingmuch_ is now known as nothingmuch
22:39 lumi I had darcs earlier
22:40 lumi So I'm in category one, yes?
22:40 macli joined perl6
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23:58 elmex will perl6 be delivered with hurd?
23:59 obra Definitely not.
23:59 obra Perl 6 will ship at least a year before Perl 7.
23:59 obra Hurd won't ever ship ;)

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