Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-02-28

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
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00:32 svnbot6 r9205 | gaal++ | a few more updates to the Peek talk, mostly arrangement.
00:32 svnbot6 r9205 | gaal++ | audreyt++ and nothingmuch++ for the help.
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01:36 putter gaal: non-toy lisps do indeed have parsers.  called "readers".
01:40 pasteling "putter" at 66.30.119.55 pasted "an example lisp reader (from bigloo scheme)" (657 lines, 22.3K) at http://sial.org/pbot/16066
01:41 putter "interesting bits" are about half-way down.
01:43 putter perhaps some non-toy stack language doesnt have a parser.  postscript doesnt have much of one.
01:45 putter problem is non-toy => lets have lots of types, and distinguish them syntactically => have at least a rather parser-like tokenizer
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02:12 putter end of day.  drat.  tomorrow &
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06:01 Smurf-BR how can i get an archive from the internet using perl?
06:02 PerlJam Smurf-BR: I think you're on the wrong channel.
06:02 Smurf-BR huh
06:03 Smurf-BR sorry.
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06:09 obra  heh
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06:49 nothingmuch morning
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06:57 nothingmuch spo0nman: are you the guy who gave the ruby talk yesterday?
06:57 nothingmuch talks?
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07:12 GeJ morning all
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07:23 svnbot6 r9206 | audreyt++ | * last-minute JIT fixes to gaal talk
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07:27 spo0nman nothingmuch: NO ... I didnt do anything.
07:28 spo0nman nothingmuch: was he a india guy with long hair?
07:29 spo0nman nothingmuch:  that would be KingDiamond.
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07:30 shmar morning all...
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07:38 nothingmuch spo0nman: i just saw your yahoo ip
07:38 nothingmuch hola shmar
07:38 shmar hiya...
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08:41 spo0nman nothingmuch: yeah! we work together ... I dont do ruby though.
08:42 spo0nman nothingmuch: you're at the conference in israel.
08:42 nothingmuch yes =)
08:42 nothingmuch small world ;-)
08:43 spo0nman nothingmuch: :)
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09:11 azuroth hi TimToady
09:11 TimToady greetin's
09:11 anatoly TimToady: thanks for explaining the word 'tuits'! Even though you wrote about it 7 years ago or so :)
09:11 anatoly Google found it for me today :)
09:11 TimToady You're certainly welcome.  I'm sure I wasn't the first person to explain it though...
09:12 azuroth I found somewhere selling round plaques when I was trying to figure out the meaning
09:17 anatoly I grokked its meaning from context, but never knew where it came from
09:17 anatoly somehow I had weird associations with "twit".
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10:17 TimToady audreyt: the idea that /[|foo]/ should mean /[<fail>|foo]/ is...interesting...
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10:45 ingy TimToady: greetings. What are you doing in .il?
10:47 TimToady ingy: wonderful, now that I'm done with my talks, and almost done with my cold.
10:48 bsb joined perl6
10:48 ingy TimToady: I hear you are coming to Tokyo?
10:52 ingy I'm living in Taiwan these days so no Tokyo jetlag for me!
10:54 TimToady Well, at least the bad jet lag is coming back for me.  I don't mind flying west since it's just staying up later...
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10:56 ingy hmmm, I recently flew East from Taipei to SFO and somehow also cured it by staying up later
10:57 ingy the flight left at 7pm and arrived at 2pm of the same day (by crossing the IDL)
10:57 ingy I stayed up until midnight and then slept until 8am
10:58 ingy I did that every night afterwards
10:58 ingy the hours leading up to midnight were a decreasing hell for 5 days
11:00 ingy my jetlag going back west to taiwan, which I'm in the middle of, seems harder. Probably because I have a cold, and pushing staying up longer seems counterproductive
11:01 ingy then again, in Taiwan it seems there are no set hours of sleep vs hacking. audreyt and friends showed me that ;)
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11:10 lypanov umm
11:10 * lypanov ponders and plots
11:10 lypanov is rules ready for e.g parsing ruby?
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11:59 putter good morning all
11:59 shmar morning
12:02 putter lypanov: re ruby parsing... maybe.  at least for another couple of days, the only rules are pugs on pge.  you have to keep the grammar flat (unless the hackathon changed things, rules are in a single flat global namespace).  might work.
12:05 putter lypanov: I've a partial ruby grammar extracted by running ripper over rubicon.  and the extractor, so you could do an up-to-date rb1.9 pass.  
12:05 putter err, s/I've/I believe I have/
12:05 putter let me know if you care. ;)
12:06 azuroth rubicon... sounds like magic
12:08 azuroth wait, ripper sounds like the magic one
12:08 putter audreyt, etal: re parsing, one oddity.  when parsing a circumfix token, pge treats the second half as a separate CLOSE-type token.   When they show up, it checks that the close token matches that of the operator on top of the stack.  But...
12:11 putter azuroth: :)  rubicon is a ruby test suite.  ripper is a mutant version of ruby's yacc grammar, so you can get (parts of - it's a work in (very slow) progress)) the parsetree.  while ruby is quite dynamic, it's syntax isnt, so it's actually a close match to the source file.
12:12 azuroth ahh. it sounded a bit like ripper just went through the whole rubicon and made a grammar
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12:14 lilo hi.... is anyone around who can provide me some clarifying information on the accessibility and use of feather.perl6.nl for acccess to freenode?
12:14 putter ... but, the CLOSE tokens for all the circumfix/etc operators are tossed on token list at definition time, and left there.  I may well be confused, but this seems "not the right thing".  I would have thought the CLOSE token should only be active when it's operator is on top of the stack.
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12:15 lilo we noticed a connect limit was hit in the last few hours and I want to provide additional connects if possible
12:16 lilo I can come back if no one has any information
12:16 azuroth Juerd would know best, I believe
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12:17 putter which means if you separate the tokenizer from the parser (pge doesnt, so it doesnt arise), you need a backchannel from parser to tokenizer.  and while the tokenizer can optimize it's the rest of it's tokens (eg, using a trie), the "current close" token is going to be changing with say every other token.
12:17 putter eeep.
12:18 lilo I can try to check back later
12:18 azuroth I guess so, lilo
12:19 lilo if anyone with information could /msg me when they see this, I'd be obliged
12:19 lilo I may be a bit busy later
12:19 * lilo waves
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12:21 putter azuroth: the idea is rather than extracting a grammar from yacc by hand, you just get a lot of parse trees (a lot meaning good coverage of the language/grammar, which rubicon is ok for), and simply grovel over them ("ahh, node x can also have a subnode y, add it to the list").  so with little effort, you can get the core of a grammar.  and track grammar changes without a lot of pain.
12:22 azuroth ahh, cool
12:30 shmar bbl
12:39 blm Is there an interface to load C libraries in pugs? Can someone point out where it is?
12:41 lypanov blm: with ffi i guess. no idea how to tho unfortunately
12:41 blm lypanov: OK Thanks :-)
12:51 azuroth ?eval [/] (1,2,3)
12:51 evalbot_9206 1/6
12:54 azuroth is there a way to fold right-associatively?
12:54 azuroth ?eval (1,2,3) [/]
12:54 evalbot_9206 Error:  unexpected "[" expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
12:57 broquaint (1,2,3) <<[/]
12:57 broquaint ?eval (1,2,3) <<[/]
12:57 evalbot_9206 Error:  unexpected "<" expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
12:57 azuroth ?eval [/] (1,2,3).reverse
12:58 evalbot_9206 3/2
12:58 azuroth ;-p
12:58 azuroth not quite
12:58 broquaint Where's the hyperoperator there?
12:58 broquaint Are has the hyperoperator changed from <</>> to [] ?
12:58 azuroth hmm. I didn't think fold was a hyper
12:58 broquaint s/Are/Or/
12:58 xinming ?eval my @a = (1, 2, 3); @a>>++
12:58 evalbot_9206 Error: Can't modify constant item: VInt 1
12:59 xinming hmm
12:59 broquaint Brain teh b0rk. Ignore me.
12:59 xinming ?eval my @a = [1, 2, 3]; @a>>++
12:59 evalbot_9206 Error: Can't modify constant item: VInt 1
12:59 azuroth but I don't think single-sided hypers are done, yet
12:59 azuroth ?eval my @a = [1,2,3]; @a >>+=<< 1;
12:59 evalbot_9206 Error:  unexpected ">" expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
12:59 azuroth ?eval my @a = [1,2,3]; @a >>+<< 1;
12:59 xinming yes, there are many parts haven't been covered yet
12:59 evalbot_9206 (4.0,)
13:00 azuroth ?eval my @a = (1,2,3); @a >>+<< 1;
13:00 evalbot_9206 (2, 3, 4)
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13:13 lypanov p/win 6
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13:13 lypanov eep
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14:32 pasteling "nothingmuch" at 192.118.100.254 pasted "S12 patch for Match coerces to result" (95 lines, 4K) at http://sial.org/pbot/16081
14:33 nothingmuch the problem with audreyt:
14:33 nothingmuch "Whenever you are going to tell audreyt something, assume she already knows it"?
14:33 nothingmuch this is a paradox though
14:34 nothingmuch if you don't tell her you can never really be sure
14:34 audreyt heh, it's just I've been keeping an eye on IRC
14:34 audreyt my real brain is the IRC hivemind
14:34 TimToady I put it in the same category as taking your umbrella to make sure it doesn't rain.
14:34 nothingmuch yes
14:34 audreyt the laptop and my wetware brain are just L1 and L2 caches
14:34 nothingmuch i agree
14:34 nothingmuch that's why i bought that toothbrush
14:34 nothingmuch i lost my toothbrush, so i went to the store, bought a new one
14:35 nothingmuch and then I found it
14:35 TimToady whatever works...
14:35 lypanov aahh. genius
14:35 lypanov now i have an excuse for getting a new laptop
14:35 lypanov "i lost the old one, needed to find it quick"
14:35 nothingmuch lypanov: svk also functions as delayed write
14:36 rgs you wouldn't have found your toothbrush if you didn't bought another one
14:36 nothingmuch so even if your bus is not working right now and you can't *read* new data from your hive brain....
14:36 nothingmuch rgs: exactly =)
14:36 lypanov nothingmuch: svk doesn't love me unfortunately :(
14:36 rgs so money disantangles the wave function of toothbrushes
14:38 nothingmuch lypanov: darcs!
14:39 nothingmuch darcs is lazy write by default though
14:39 nothingmuch so it doesn't fit well with the my-brain-is-on-the-internet-and-i-have-no-access metaphor
14:40 lypanov nothingmuch: darcs doesn't integrate so well with svn
14:40 lypanov and its slow, horrifically so
14:41 nothingmuch i have never met darcs' slowness
14:41 nothingmuch but i agree
14:41 nothingmuch for svn it's not good enough
14:41 nothingmuch that's why I use both
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14:41 lypanov (its a 440mb repo i work with, and svk handles it in style, other than strange spurious merges)
14:41 shmar SVN is definately the best for bad line connectivity...
14:42 audreyt nothingmuch:
14:42 lypanov i should scrap the repo and start from scratch, i think i messed it up while learning the syste
14:42 shmar "The script is written by microsoft" - That's how they always like it...
14:42 lypanov s/$/m/
14:43 audreyt sub f { say $x.from }; my $rv = m//; f($rv);
14:44 audreyt nothingmuch: why should this die?
14:44 audreyt nothingmuch: I'm not comfortable of junctive autocoercing.
14:44 nothingmuch die?
14:44 audreyt my suggestion was just to let the result object handle coerce.
14:44 nothingmuch oh
14:44 nothingmuch it shouldn't
14:44 nothingmuch well
14:45 audreyt your patch:
14:45 audreyt +Additionally, the C<Match> object automatically coerces into a it's underlying
14:45 audreyt +result whenever it's sent into a function
14:45 nothingmuch sub f ( Match $x ) { }
14:45 nothingmuch the reason is:
14:45 audreyt we tried that with pairs.
14:45 audreyt ain't working.
14:45 * ayrnieu discovers Perl6::Bible
14:45 nothingmuch okay
14:45 nothingmuch fair enough
14:45 nothingmuch my point is:
14:45 nothingmuch it's more likely that someone will forget to coerce
14:45 nothingmuch than that someone will have nice annotations
14:45 nothingmuch and this could leak match objects into ASTs and stuff
14:45 audreyt now, to _typed_ functions, I'm fine with that
14:46 nothingmuch yeah
14:46 audreyt because they call coerce
14:46 nothingmuch exactly
14:46 audreyt but juctive autocoercion on just any items...
14:46 audreyt nah.
14:46 nothingmuch junctive autocoercing is not my favourite either
14:46 nothingmuch in fact, i hate it
14:46 nothingmuch but I've learned to accept it, and i just feel that this is consistent
14:46 nothingmuch without pissing me off =)
14:47 nothingmuch (I am indifferent about typing since I thinkin typing is good documentation anyway)
14:47 nothingmuch (that is, i will add types, i don't care if Match autocoerces or just coerces)
14:47 nothingmuch (but others might not agree, and larry seemed to like autocoercion)
14:47 nothingmuch TimToady: comments?
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14:48 audreyt I like autocoercion
14:48 audreyt just not junctive ones.
14:48 nothingmuch wait
14:48 nothingmuch explain not liking junctive ones
14:48 nothingmuch is this a digression?
14:48 nothingmuch or directly related to my patch?
14:49 audreyt &f := { $_ }
14:49 audreyt &f := -> SomeType $_ { $_ }
14:49 audreyt junctions explode on both
14:49 audreyt but I don't want match explode on the first.
14:50 nothingmuch okay
14:50 nothingmuch again, i'm indifferent
14:50 nothingmuch since I will SomeType it anyway
14:50 audreyt cool then
14:50 nothingmuch but larry seemed to like the first too
14:50 nothingmuch when I brought it up
14:50 nothingmuch (i thought that's what you meant yesterday)
14:51 audreyt in the first case, we reasoned that Junctions are not items
14:51 audreyt I'm not comfortable with saying Matches are not itms.
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14:52 nothingmuch aha
14:52 nothingmuch i agree
14:52 nothingmuch it isa Item
14:52 nothingmuch but...
14:52 nothingmuch it might not DWIM
14:52 nothingmuch and that's not my decision
14:52 nothingmuch =)
14:53 TimToady wouldn't multi delegation allow it to be an Item?
14:53 audreyt sure will, but then it'd not be nothingmuch's multi
14:53 TimToady (presuming --> Type is possible multi tiebreaker)
14:53 audreyt which makes it explode on any unsuspecting function
14:53 audreyt just like junctions do
14:53 svnbot6 r9207 | audreyt++ | * openFile now turns the autoflushing bit on with a file, as
14:53 svnbot6 r9207 | audreyt++ |   otherwise it doesn't get closed upon program exit.
14:53 nothingmuch not explode
14:53 nothingmuch just unwrap
14:53 nothingmuch Match objects unwrap
14:53 nothingmuch mc parsec wraps
14:53 audreyt but why function call boundary?
14:54 audreyt it means it explodes on given
14:54 audreyt on for
14:54 audreyt on if
14:54 nothingmuch hmm
14:54 nothingmuch i see
14:54 nothingmuch i agree with that being broken
14:54 audreyt again, we tried with pairs
14:54 audreyt it doesn't quite work out
14:54 nothingmuch but "remote" code probably wants the results
14:54 nothingmuch the solution can change
14:54 nothingmuch i don't mind
14:55 nothingmuch in fact, i don't even feel the problem
14:55 nothingmuch i'm just noting that the problem might exist:
14:55 audreyt if they want to do anything with it, they'll probably demand a type down the call chain
14:55 nothingmuch Match objects instead of nodes in ASTs
14:55 nothingmuch yes, presumably
14:55 nothingmuch but it still doesn't DWIM
14:55 audreyt but that's fine, as they autocoerce still
14:55 lypanov ooo.its snowing
14:55 audreyt I think it DWIMs
14:55 audreyt that saves us the trouble
14:55 nothingmuch hmm
14:55 audreyt of inquiring annotated positions in notes
14:55 audreyt I mean nodes
14:55 nothingmuch well
14:55 nothingmuch whatever, i really don't care ;-)
14:55 nothingmuch i will annotate
14:56 nothingmuch and those who don't can learn to do that
14:56 nothingmuch we'll tell them "performance" if they don't by "self documenting"
14:56 audreyt well
14:56 audreyt    <moose> { MooseContainer( $<moose>.() ) }
14:56 audreyt you are calling
14:56 audreyt $<moose>.() as MooseContainer
14:57 audreyt so that's actually an explicitly coerce call
14:57 audreyt so you win anyway
14:57 nothingmuch class nothingmuch { has $TimToady handles &discussion }
14:57 audreyt regardless of it acts junctively or not
14:57 nothingmuch i know i win =)
14:57 audreyt "you can solve any problem with one extra level of redirection"
14:57 audreyt I mean, indirection
14:57 audreyt wait, I do mean redirection
14:57 wolverian (does 'handles' take &s?)
14:57 nothingmuch =)
14:57 nothingmuch wolverian: i dunno
14:57 audreyt wolverian: problly not.
14:57 nothingmuch "discussion"
14:57 TimToady except the problem of too many levels of indirection...
14:58 wolverian ok, just checking :)
14:58 nothingmuch unless it's a multi
14:58 audreyt handles <discussion>
14:58 nothingmuch right
14:58 audreyt nothingmuch: &discussion isn't even in scope
14:58 TimToady or redirection...
14:58 nothingmuch audreyt: unless it's a multi =)
14:58 nothingmuch that's why i got confused
14:58 audreyt where it still isn't in scope :)
14:58 nothingmuch because we were discussing 'multi handles'
14:58 audreyt (you closed the class definition)
14:58 nothingmuch isn't it in GLOBAL::
14:58 wolverian do we need a sigil for not-yet-declared subs now? :)
14:58 TimToady What't the expected return type of this discussion?
14:58 nothingmuch ah
14:58 nothingmuch yes
14:58 nothingmuch TimToady: Either Yes No
14:59 nothingmuch data Yes = Yes String -- reasoning
14:59 nothingmuch (that was for lumi)
14:59 nothingmuch sorry
14:59 nothingmuch newtype
14:59 nothingmuch or just type?
15:02 audreyt I got the repatch.
15:02 audreyt nopasteing.
15:02 pasteling "audreyt" at 192.118.100.254 pasted "S05: only typed coercions explode Matches." (48 lines, 1.7K) at http://sial.org/pbot/16083
15:05 audreyt wolverian: no, thank $deity, no.
15:05 wolverian ;) we don't have ¢ anymore either?
15:06 audreyt you mean ?foo ?
15:06 svnbot6 r9208 | audreyt++ | * Add Gaal's peek.spork to docs/talks/README.
15:06 svnbot6 r9208 | audreyt++ | * In the talk slides, the $var in rules should really be
15:06 svnbot6 r9208 | audreyt++ |   $<var>.  Mea culpa.
15:06 audreyt it's boolean coercer
15:06 wolverian no, I mean the cent sigil. sorry if that didn't come out right
15:06 wolverian (utf8 here)
15:06 audreyt oh. no, it's ^Foo now, which talks about the metaclass ("real" class object)
15:07 audreyt (not yet implemented inpugs)
15:07 wolverian ah. right. and Foo is the undefined object, or so. I need to think my way through the implications there.
15:07 audreyt Foo is the prototypical object
15:07 audreyt that is both false and undefined by default
15:08 audreyt but nevertheless has an .id.
15:08 wolverian what's .id?
15:08 audreyt it's what ruby calls .object_id.
15:09 audreyt or .__id__
15:09 wolverian hm. so .ego is..
15:09 chris2 or .id in <1.8 without warnings :)
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15:10 audreyt chris2: yeah. why is it deprecated anyway?
15:10 audreyt namespace protection?
15:10 chris2 too easy to nameclash, i think
15:10 audreyt I s'ppose
15:10 wolverian I'd imagine db-type things would like .id
15:10 chris2 yeah
15:10 chris2 like AR, which clobbers it by default (suckers)
15:11 ayrnieu audreyt - Perl6::Bible::contents should probably have this instead of line 138 (right after: close MOD;)  $text =~ s/^.* \Q =head1 \s CONTENTS \E (.*?) \Q =head1 .* $/$1/sx or die "Can't find contents\n";
15:11 audreyt active records?
15:11 chris2 yep
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15:11 ayrnieu audreyt - 5.8.6 , at least, parses what you have in such a bizarre way that it acts like: $text = "(.*?)"
15:11 nothingmuch instance Monad AcmeSOmethingOrOtherAgent
15:12 audreyt ayrnieu: fixed, uploading
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15:12 audreyt TimToady: the S05 patch looks okay?
15:13 ayrnieu oh, but those \Q and \E aren't necessary, sorry.  Artifact of debugging.  The whitespace and /x does the trick.
15:15 TimToady I suspect .id is really .^id, assuming that .meta.id actually still
15:15 TimToady has access to the self that called it.
15:15 TimToady So if the user overrides .id, they can still get at the .meta.id.
15:16 TimToady Though I suppose some people could get burned writing .id and then
15:16 nothingmuch $?CALLER::SELF ?
15:16 TimToady getting it overridden...
15:16 nothingmuch i think we also need $?CALLER::INVOCANT
15:16 nothingmuch $?INVOCANT ::= $?SELF
15:16 nothingmuch that reads better whne it's not *really* "my self
15:16 nothingmuch "
15:16 nothingmuch in the english sense
15:17 audreyt TimToady: having .meta.id handling self is quite dangerous
15:17 audreyt it'd mean that no two .meta are alike
15:17 audreyt which leads directly to singleton classes
15:18 audreyt which I'm not sure S12 allows as of this moment :)
15:19 TimToady I'm not suggesting that it be the invocant of .meta, just available.
15:19 integral there's not something simple like: $obj.Perl6::IdRole::id; ?
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15:20 TimToady audreyt: patch looks good
15:20 audreyt TimToady: available as a property?
15:20 nothingmuch so the metaclass id is $foo.meta.^id ?
15:20 audreyt or as $+id?
15:20 nothingmuch and ::Class.^id == ::Class.id ?
15:20 TimToady caller something might be adequate
15:21 TimToady er, except we're called directly, hmm.
15:21 nothingmuch btw, I changed my mind about protos being undef
15:21 audreyt indeed.
15:21 nothingmuch my Dog $fido;
15:21 nothingmuch $fido.meta.methods; # this is still very useful
15:21 nothingmuch but the problem is that:
15:21 nothingmuch if $fido has been .= newd
15:21 nothingmuch then it's .meta
15:21 nothingmuch but if not, than it isn't
15:21 nothingmuch which is slightly not like the '.isa' test
15:22 nothingmuch but nevertheless, it's still useful
15:22 TimToady I don't see why it wouldn't still be .meta.  It's just the .meta of something that doesn't exist.
15:22 audreyt right.
15:22 audreyt $fido has an .id even it it doesn't have an .defined.
15:23 audreyt so obviously it has a .meta.
15:23 nothingmuch isn't ::Dog the instance that *is* Dog?
15:23 audreyt TimToady: if we have
15:23 audreyt class Dog { has $head_count = 3 }
15:23 audreyt does
15:23 audreyt Dog.head_count
15:23 audreyt return 3, or undef?
15:24 TimToady undef
15:24 nothingmuch and 'my Dog $fido; $fido.head_count' ?
15:24 TimToady lr\\
15:24 TimToady or "undef method"
15:24 TimToady should throw an exception.
15:24 audreyt yup.
15:25 audreyt meaningful accessors are only generated for instantiated objects where there's something to access.
15:25 nothingmuch so is ::Dog the same?
15:25 audreyt cool. I think that makes sense :-)
15:25 levengli at the risk of repeating myself (i forgot :-[), where can i find the equivalent to the camel book on perl6?
15:25 audreyt nothingmuch: yeah.
15:25 nothingmuch and if so, why is ::Dog.meta the same as Dog.new.meta?
15:25 nothingmuch isn't it more like Dog.new.meta.meta?
15:26 audreyt levengli: first, run this short perl6 program
15:26 audreyt sleep((1..50000000).pick)
15:26 audreyt then go out and buy a camel book :)
15:27 shmar :)
15:27 szabgab joined perl6
15:27 audreyt but seriously, the Synopses are currently the closest we have
15:27 nothingmuch that's only a year and a half
15:27 levengli aghhhhh. too much to read. all my knowledge is down the toilet
15:27 audreyt levengli: http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/synopsis.html
15:27 nothingmuch hola szabgab
15:27 szabgab rehola
15:27 wolverian hm. is there a .= type syntax to do $foo *= $foo.bar;
15:29 TimToady nothingmuch: because every Dog has the same metaclass whether it exists or not.
15:29 audreyt mmm *.=
15:29 ayrnieu levengli - the Perl6 Camel will come in time.
15:29 wolverian audreyt, yeah. then >>*.=  ... hrm. :)
15:29 SamB joined perl6
15:29 audreyt [*%$/{}]
15:29 wolverian $work_left / [+] @workers>>*.= tuits
15:30 audreyt starts to resemble APL
15:30 nothingmuch TimToady: so please correct these definitions:
15:30 nothingmuch Dog.new is an instance of dog
15:30 nothingmuch ::Dog is an instance of dog, with no value
15:30 nothingmuch Dog is an instance of the metaclass
15:30 nothingmuch (probably Class)
15:31 nothingmuch ::Dog is the prototype of Dog.new
15:31 TimToady No, ^Dog is the instance.  Dog is either synonymous with ::Dog or a compile time error because Dog hasn't been declared.
15:31 ayrnieu audreyt - not quite, at least not quite J.  J has special syntaxes for 'forks' and such, which rely on functions being definitively monadic or dyadic.
15:32 levengli left perl6
15:32 levengli joined perl6
15:32 nothingmuch ah
15:32 nothingmuch so my Dog $fido desugars to ^Dog?
15:32 lisppaste3 joined perl6
15:32 nothingmuch okay
15:32 levengli left perl6
15:32 audreyt no, it desugars to
15:33 audreyt my $fido ::= ::Dog;
15:33 audreyt as well as put a constraint on the container $fido.
15:33 nothingmuch oh
15:33 nothingmuch it binds
15:33 nothingmuch i thought it assigns
15:33 nothingmuch err
15:33 nothingmuch please explain that
15:33 audreyt hm, I'm wrong. it has to be a compile-time assignment.
15:33 audreyt not binding.
15:33 nothingmuch how can you do container assignment at compile time with a class name as the rvalue
15:33 nothingmuch oh
15:33 nothingmuch okay
15:33 nothingmuch =)
15:35 nothingmuch compile time assignments don't make sense... or do they?
15:36 nothingmuch like... just for constants?
15:36 nothingmuch in which case the value is cow'd?
15:36 nothingmuch or just read only?
15:36 szabgab left perl6
15:36 TimToady doesn't matter as long as the semantics are preserverd.
15:37 TimToady when the assign happens depends on the declarator
15:37 TimToady constant = compile time
15:37 TimToady state = first time
15:37 TimToady has = build time
15:38 audreyt my = each time closure is entered
15:38 levengli joined perl6
15:38 vel joined perl6
15:38 nothingmuch hmm
15:38 nothingmuch that's a nice sort of hierchy
15:39 nothingmuch is it found verbatim in e.g. S04?
15:39 levengli left perl6
15:41 audreyt no ;)
15:43 nothingmuch is anyone patching?
15:43 TimToady my should assign at ordinary assignment time because you could have multiple of them.
15:44 levengli joined perl6
15:44 levengli left perl6
15:45 SolidState joined perl6
15:46 netanya_goy joined perl6
15:47 nothingmuch netanya_goy: cure nick
15:47 levengli joined perl6
15:47 nothingmuch $fido; BEGIN { = ::Dog }
15:48 SolidState Is chomp implemented in the latest pugs release?
15:48 nothingmuch .new
15:49 SolidState nothingmuch: is that an answer to me?
15:50 nothingmuch SolidState: no
15:50 nothingmuch sorry =)
15:51 SolidState nothingmuch: no you were not answering me, or no chomp is not implemented yet?
15:52 levengli left perl6
15:52 nothingmuch meta meta meta no
15:52 nothingmuch seriously though
15:52 nothingmuch that answer was not to you =)
15:53 nothingmuch check the smoke tests
15:53 nothingmuch http://smoke.pugscode.org/
15:53 audreyt SolidState: I think chomp is implemented as in p5
15:53 nothingmuch it probably is in the last release
15:53 audreyt sorry
15:53 audreyt it's actually implemented correctly
15:53 audreyt as in P6
15:53 audreyt which returns the chomped thing
15:53 audreyt to do an implace chomp, sayso:
15:54 audreyt $str .= chomp;
15:55 szabgab joined perl6
15:55 szabgab left perl6
15:55 levengli joined perl6
15:58 _SamB_ joined perl6
15:59 SolidState audreyt: thanks, using chomp as you suggested works. Thanks! :)
16:01 szabgab joined perl6
16:01 ayrnieu SolidState - quick, quick!  How would you perl6ly write chomp($foo = <FH>) ?
16:01 epsalon joined perl6
16:01 SolidState ayrnieu: $foo .= <FH>
16:01 SolidState ayrnieu: ?
16:01 szabgab everyone invited to #osdc.il for the auction soon
16:02 ayrnieu SolidState - does that chomp?
16:02 audreyt you can order auction items remotely?
16:02 ayrnieu SolidState - also, <> operates differently for perl6...
16:02 epsalon only if you pay and collect them locally.
16:02 szabgab left perl6
16:03 stevan_ how much is the starting bid for a lock of nothingmuch's hair?
16:04 shmar steven_: LOL!
16:05 ayrnieu SolidState - I would guess: =$foo .= chomp
16:06 wolverian handles autochomp by default, afaik
16:06 SolidState ayrnieu: any idea why "for chomp($input.readline) { ... }" doesn't work as expected?
16:06 wolverian (i.e. the :chomp layer, or whatever its name)
16:06 SolidState wolverian: noope
16:06 SolidState wolverian: nope*
16:06 wolverian SolidState, nope? not in pugs or in perl6?
16:06 SolidState wolverian: pugs
16:06 wolverian ah, well. that's implementation.. ;)
16:07 SolidState wolverian: 6.2.11 at least. Audrey changes things awefully fast :)
16:08 levengli left perl6
16:08 SolidState ayrnieu: any idea about my question? Shouldn't "chomp" when given an array return an array of chomped elements?
16:09 audreyt actually, autochomping should be the default
16:09 audreyt and we havn't implemented them, hmm.
16:10 audreyt the test is t/builtins/io/readline_chomped.t
16:10 SolidState ayrnieu: in case you're wondering, right now the code I wrote returns just the first line of $input ...
16:11 ayrnieu SolidState - for "hello" { ... }
16:12 ayrnieu perl5 is the same, with: perl -le 'for (chomp($foo = <>)) { print $foo }'
16:13 audreyt maybe I turn on autochomping now
16:13 rgs ayrnieu: surely you didn't mean that
16:13 audreyt and see how many hundreds of tests break
16:14 ayrnieu audreyt - you'll break http://use.perl.org/~rafael/journal/26426 , but it's probably for the best in the end :-)
16:14 ayrnieu rgs - why didn't I?
16:14 ayrnieu SolidState - try: while chomp($input.readline) { ... }
16:14 rgs not a valid perl 5 code that does something useful.
16:14 audreyt ayrnieu: no I won't, chomp is a projection
16:14 ayrnieu (actually, autochomping won't break that bot)
16:15 audreyt which means it's idempotent for the second application onwards
16:15 rgs and well, my irc bot is not really "in production" right now.
16:15 ayrnieu audreyt - *nod*, "assumes !autochomp" got crossed with "breaks on autochomp" for a moment.
16:15 rgs use more 'chomping'
16:16 PerlJam Is it just me or is there a lull in the perl6 universe?
16:16 integral PerlJam: filled by chromatic's journal post?
16:16 audreyt PerlJam: like, now?
16:16 rgs lull before the tempest ?
16:16 PerlJam rgs: hopefully :-)
16:17 * ayrnieu searches for antonyms of 'lull'
16:17 * PerlJam hasn't read use.perl today
16:17 integral it's another "everyone hates perl6, but it's okay because they're not contributers" :-P
16:18 ayrnieu oh, that happened recently in perlmonks
16:18 ayrnieu also a post of chromatic's.
16:18 * audreyt pops the journal-reading stack
16:19 audreyt okay, so autochomping doesn't seem to break too many stuff.
16:19 * PerlJam wants to ++ Ovid's comment to chromatics journal entry
16:19 audreyt I'm committing it. brace for impact
16:20 TimToady shall I smoke it?
16:20 * ayrnieu felt guilty, reading Dan's quitting-parrot blogpost.
16:20 audreyt SolidState: "Offer Kaye" is your realname?
16:20 PerlJam ayrnieu: why?  You didn't have anything to do with it
16:21 PerlJam (and nothing you could have done would have made any difference I think)
16:21 ayrnieu PerlJam - well, I don't like thinking that I couldn't have done anything to make a difference.
16:22 PerlJam ayrnieu: not all problems have solutions.  *Especially* social problems.
16:22 SolidState audreyt: yes
16:22 audreyt cool, welcome to AUTHORS. you have a commit bit yet?
16:22 SolidState audreyt: lol :) no i don't
16:23 xerox audreyt deserves an hug.
16:23 audreyt oferk at oren dot co dot il?
16:23 * PerlJam predicts a commit bit is in SolidState's immediate future
16:23 SolidState audreyt: god no, where did u get that?
16:23 SolidState audreyt: offer . kaye AT gmail . com
16:24 audreyt okie
16:24 SolidState audreyt: seriously, where did u get the oren email? I thought I expunged all references to that...
16:24 audreyt google ;)
16:25 audreyt SolidState: did we meet in realspace today?
16:25 ayrnieu SolidState - indeed, third hit for 'Offer Kaye'.
16:25 svnbot6 r9209 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Prim: $fh.readline and =$fh is now autochomping, as
16:25 svnbot6 r9209 | audreyt++ |   1)S29 is made canonical and 2)it says autochomping is default.
16:25 svnbot6 r9209 | audreyt++ |   Expect test breakage (which we'll fix.)
16:25 svnbot6 r9209 | audreyt++ |   Suggested by: Offer Kaye
16:25 svnbot6 r9209 | audreyt++ | * t/builtins/io/readline_chomped.t: unTODO passing tests.
16:26 audreyt SolidState: in any case, a commit bit is on your way. welcome aboard! :)
16:26 audreyt xerox: *hugs*
16:26 SolidState audreyt: I'm the annoying guy with the sweater who asked you about the close problem
16:26 audreyt ah right. it works in the pugs trunk
16:26 SolidState audreyt: answered my next question :)
16:27 audreyt TimToady: a smoke would be lovely, yes :)
16:27 SolidState audreyt: Thanks for the commit bit. I think ;-)
16:27 audreyt <- battery rapidly going out, unless nothingmuch can hook it up for her
16:27 SamB joined perl6
16:28 SolidState audreyt: cigarettes are not healthy
16:28 audreyt I've never ate one.
16:28 SolidState audreyt: what's your laptop? an ibm?
16:28 audreyt no, asus m2c
16:29 SolidState audreyt: ahh, 2 bad
16:29 audreyt only advantage is that it's cheap, which is important as it's my 3rd asus M2 laptop so far
16:29 audreyt I think in only 1.5yrs
16:29 audreyt they are replacable parts
16:29 m joined perl6
16:30 SolidState audreyt: better close any open work before you loose it...
16:30 audreyt 162 committers now, mmm.
16:30 audreyt SolidState: it's already uplinked, so I'm safe now
16:32 ayrnieu now that there's nothing at all clever about reading from a filehandle and chomping at the same time, we are all freed to be clever elsewhere.
16:34 audreyt and all it took is to take off a (++"\n") call
16:34 audreyt (because Haskell already autochomp, I was stupid enough to add the line ;))
16:36 SolidState audreyt: does this make the "-l" (small-L) flag totally obsolete?
16:36 audreyt I s'ppose so
16:37 audreyt so we can free it to mean linking
16:37 audreyt ;)
16:37 rgs hmm -l is already ignored, no ?
16:37 ayrnieu well, $\
16:37 audreyt indeed.
16:38 audreyt rgs++ # _very_ long term memory
16:38 rgs no, I just tried to use it once :)
16:38 ayrnieu Something indistinguishable from a very long term memory is probably good enough :-)
16:39 audreyt hm
16:39 audreyt $ ./pugs -Z
16:39 audreyt pugs: -Z: openFile: does not exist (No such file or directory)
16:39 audreyt instead of
16:39 audreyt $ perl -Z
16:39 audreyt Unrecognized switch: -Z  (-h will show valid options).
16:39 audreyt arguably broken behaviour?
16:39 audreyt (it was trying to read from the program named -Z)
16:40 audreyt Perl6::Bible 0.30 released meanwhile btw.
16:40 svnbot6 r9210 | audreyt++ | * ./pugs -l totally means nothing now.  SolidState++ for noticing this,
16:40 svnbot6 r9210 | audreyt++ |   and rgs++ for pointing out that it wasn't doing anything useful.
16:42 integral oh, I actually have a sort of argument parsing rewrite floating around...
16:45 audreyt oh ok, I'll just put -l as -w then
16:45 audreyt i.e. ignored for now
16:45 audreyt do you think a warning is warranted?
16:45 audreyt "you said -l, you don't need to say it now, but I'll run your program anyway"
16:47 audreyt anyway, I'll just let it silently drop now.
16:48 * rgs notices that -p and -l already chomp $_
16:48 audreyt you mean -n.
16:48 rgs yes.
16:48 svnbot6 r9211 | audreyt++ | * as ./pugs -l no longer desugars into anything, put it to
16:48 svnbot6 r9211 | audreyt++ |   our list in Pugs.hs as "ignored silently, may uselater" flags.
16:48 svnbot6 r9211 | audreyt++ |   Not sure if a warning is warranted.
16:50 audreyt then they do not to do it now... I'll rerun t/pugsrun/03-dash-p.t and -n
16:53 SolidState audreyt: if you know mjd, tell him about this (500 nis for his book :))
16:55 audreyt SolidState: he's yrlnry on irc.perl.org :)
16:55 audreyt interestingly,
16:56 audreyt $_.=chomp
16:56 audreyt can be written as
16:56 audreyt .=chomp
16:57 SolidState audreyt: Also as "chomp;"
16:57 svnbot6 r9212 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Run.Args: Now that autochomping is the default,
16:57 svnbot6 r9212 | audreyt++ |   we don't need to do .=chomp anymore for -p and -n.
16:58 ayrnieu for $foo { .=chomp; .=frobnicate('counterclockwise') }
16:59 ayrnieu a bit more readable, and it doesn't have second-class citizens.
16:59 audreyt mm sndclsppl?
17:00 audreyt what does that mean in this ctx?
17:00 _SamB_ joined perl6
17:13 justatheory joined perl6
17:14 integral try seems to be used pretty liberally in the parser :-/
17:14 aufrank joined perl6
17:14 aufrank hello!
17:15 * stevan_ agrees with "Audrey hands out commit bits like a drug dealer drumming up more business." ;)
17:15 stevan_ Pugs is My CracK!!!!!
17:15 wolverian ayrnieu, s,for,given,
17:16 wolverian imho. maybe.
17:16 ayrnieu wolverian - no, that's better.
17:16 audreyt ... OSDC.il just auctioned off a commit bit
17:16 audreyt to pugs
17:16 audreyt from nothingmuch
17:16 ayrnieu hee
17:17 audreyt for 200 shekels
17:17 audreyt that's USD$50 or so
17:17 stevan_ wow,.. I will sell mine for USD$35
17:17 * aufrank feels like he's $50 the richer for just asking ;)
17:17 audreyt nono, an _invite_
17:17 audreyt not a _transfer_
17:18 stevan_ your right,.. a transfer should be worth more,..
17:18 audreyt itzik: welcome aboard, anyhow :)
17:18 stevan_ cause you get all my past commits :)
17:18 * aufrank has some beachfront property in Arizon...
17:18 audreyt rofl
17:18 * stevan_ is still wondering how much one of nothingmuch's golden locks is going for?
17:20 audreyt now nothingmuch is pimping himself at the auction...
17:20 audreyt 18:22 < nothingmuch> if am williong to sell myself as a partner
17:20 ayrnieu coding|sexual|speech|business|travel|poker
17:20 stevan_ partner for what? I want specifics before I bid
17:21 wolverian I'm willing to sell myself to a cute girl. actually, you don't have to pay.
17:21 aufrank Perl6 Overview is good, btw
17:21 rgs hire greg mccarroll, he will make the public forget to ask questions.
17:21 ayrnieu |crime # !
17:21 audreyt aufrank: woot
17:21 aufrank variable scoping is missing
17:21 aufrank but your probly know that
17:25 audreyt I don't; commit a note to say that ?
17:26 audreyt (or fill them in, or something)
17:29 * aufrank goes to do semi-meaningful work on perl6!
17:30 audreyt aufrank++
17:30 Aankh|Clone is now known as Aankhen`
17:30 Aankhen` is now known as Aankhen``
17:31 Aankhen`` joined perl6
17:31 integral ?eval my $a = "abc"; :$a
17:31 evalbot_9212 ("a" => \"abc")
17:31 integral is that what's meant to happen?
17:31 ayrnieu woah.
17:32 SolidState ayrnieu: any idea why "for chomp($input.readline) { ... }" doesn't work as expected?
17:32 integral because I think it's unintended and that bit of parsing is specifically for: sub foo (:$bar) { }
17:32 ayrnieu ?eval my $a = "abc"; %a = :$a; %a{a}
17:32 evalbot_9212 Error: Undeclared variable: "%a"
17:32 integral ayrnieu: (use strict is default finally)
17:32 ayrnieu SolidState - it's equivalent to given chomp($input.readline) { ... } , no?
17:32 ayrnieu ?eval my $a = "abc"; my %a = :$a; %a{a}
17:32 evalbot_9212 Error: No such sub: "&a"
17:33 integral so, that looks buggy, huh?
17:33 audreyt SolidState I think it's because chomp doesn't do list context
17:33 ayrnieu ?eval my $a = "abc"; my %a = (:$a); %a{a}
17:33 evalbot_9212 Error: No such sub: "&a"
17:34 audreyt SolidState: as per http://search.cpan.org/dist/Perl6-Bible/lib/Perl6/Bible/S29.pod
17:34 integral hmm, I don't think Pugs.Shell is clearing some state properly either, since if you do "xyz", and then sub bar{} for the next statement, you get "xyz" back again
17:35 SolidState ayrnieu: no idea. if it doesn't do list context that's a break with perl5, as I understand it. audreyt, any thoughts?
17:36 audreyt (well, it already broke with perl5 by being nondestructive)
17:36 rgs chomp doesn't do list context in perl 5
17:36 audreyt right, it just takes a list.
17:36 audreyt of containers
17:36 audreyt and destructively update them.
17:36 rgs actually it's one of the horrible built-ins that you can't mimic with prototypes. iirc.
17:37 ayrnieu aforementioned first-class citizen :-)
17:37 audreyt ahhhh.
17:37 rgs and thus you can't override it.
17:37 audreyt though I don't see anything wrong with @x.chomp returning chomped lists
17:37 rgs neither do I
17:37 audreyt ?eval (1..10).chomp
17:37 rgs although actually p5's chomp returns the number of chomped things
17:38 evalbot_9212 "1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10"
17:38 audreyt currently we interpolates the array as if it's a string
17:38 ayrnieu p5's chom?p don't return very useful values, generally.
17:38 audreyt and then chomp it (i.e. only cares about hte last elem
17:38 audreyt )
17:38 audreyt is that useful in any real sense?
17:38 ayrnieu audreyt - as bizarre stringification
17:39 audreyt SolidState: write a test for list chomping
17:39 audreyt either add to t/builtins/strings/chomp.t or make a t/builtins/arrays/chomp.t
17:39 SolidState audreyt: as soon as the auction is over and I get back home :)
17:39 * rgs hopes perl 6 doesn't have chop
17:39 audreyt the first choice is perhaps more interesting
17:40 * SolidState thinks he agrees with rgs about chop :)
17:40 audreyt TimToady: is it okay that we retire chop from Str?
17:40 wolverian I always thought it was a pity that chop didn't chop the head, anyway.
17:40 * wolverian coughs
17:41 audreyt wolverian: you just need to learn hebrew for RTL
17:41 wolverian hm, good point
17:41 TimToady audreyt: hmm...gotta think about that...
17:41 * rgs thinks that the subtle differences between chop and chomp occasionnally surprise the expert.
17:42 rgs like, er, their return value in list context.
17:42 audreyt it's wonderful for trivia
17:42 ayrnieu void context for the both of them, arr.
17:43 integral hmm, I can't find the code that assigns the result of a line at the shell prompt into $*_
17:43 audreyt integral: what?
17:44 integral audreyt: when you evaluate an expression at the Pugs.Shell prompt, it's return value ends up in $*_
17:44 audreyt oh, qx//
17:44 integral but I can't figure out were that happens
17:44 audreyt oh.
17:44 integral *where
17:45 audreyt line 295 Eval.
17:46 bsb joined perl6
17:46 integral thanks!
17:47 audreyt wow, you can also chomp a hash. didn't know about it.
17:47 audreyt integral: where are you based in realspace?
17:48 integral audreyt: Cambridge, UK, or Edinburgh, UK in the hols
17:48 SolidState audreyt: does it chomp both keys and values?
17:48 audreyt SolidState: I was talking about p5. chomp and chop both operate on values.
17:48 audreyt hm, I might as well fill in the missing poetry
17:49 audreyt Pugs.DeepSeq, Pugs.Prelude, and Prereq.hs
17:51 SolidState audreyt: Just finished registering on the openfoundry site:"You are now a registered user on OSSF"
17:51 svnbot6 r9213 | audreyt++ | * Poetry for DeepSeq:
17:51 svnbot6 r9213 | audreyt++ |     All that is gold does not glitter,
17:51 svnbot6 r9213 | audreyt++ |     Not all those who wander are lost;
17:51 svnbot6 r9213 | audreyt++ |     The old that is strong does not wither,
17:51 svnbot6 r9213 | audreyt++ |     Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
17:52 audreyt SolidState: excellent, now you can use the name/pwd to commit to svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/
17:53 * integral feels like he's got the next move in a very nearly finished game of jenga
17:53 aufrank my new favorite listening online:  http://thespps.org:8000/listen.pls
17:53 PerlJam I just built pugs for the first time in a long time and *man* those tests run forever
17:54 PerlJam tests++
17:56 ayrnieu You could have a test that fails only when too much time has passed since a file was touched by 'make tests'
17:56 svnbot6 r9214 | audreyt++ | * Poetry for Pugs.Prelude:
17:56 svnbot6 r9214 | audreyt++ |     The world was young, the mountains green,
17:56 svnbot6 r9214 | audreyt++ |     No stain yet on the Moon was seen,
17:56 svnbot6 r9214 | audreyt++ |     No words were laid on stream or stone,
17:56 svnbot6 r9214 | audreyt++ |     When Durin woke and walked along.
17:56 spinclad ?eval my $a = "abc"; my %a = :$a; %a<a>
17:56 audreyt integral: the real test is whether Hs is more refactorable than XS :)
17:56 evalbot_9213 \"abc"
17:56 ayrnieu spinclad - yow, I am lame.
17:56 audreyt (and having done it almost completely for 2 times on Pugs, I think we'll do fine :))
17:57 integral audreyt: it's easy to rewrite whole modules,  but it's the small changes to a single function in a big file that stump me
17:57 spinclad ayrnieu: many eyes
17:57 audreyt integral: which is why the moose wrote the hs refactorer
17:57 spinclad make light work
17:58 audreyt to analyze inlinks for toplevel function calls
17:58 audreyt though it doesn't help with huge functions themselves.
17:58 ayrnieu integral - make your modules single-function long
17:59 integral ayrnieu: have you seen the size of Pugs.Parser recently? 8-)
17:59 ayrnieu ?eval my $a = "a"; $a++; $a
17:59 integral ah, that'll be helpful.
17:59 evalbot_9213 \"b"
17:59 integral one problem with lots of small funcs inside a module is that their interface/contract/spec isn't very clear
18:01 PerlJam audreyt: what tolkienism will you use for the version of pugs that bootstraps us into "the real" perl6 compiler?   I think the final lines of the verse for DeepSeq would be most appropriate. :)
18:01 ayrnieu ?eval my $a = "abc"; my $<$_ = (:$a)[0]; $_++; $_> = $a; $b
18:01 evalbot_9214 Error: Undeclared variable: "$b"
18:01 spinclad audreyt: s/walked along/walked alone/
18:02 mauke joined perl6
18:02 audreyt PerlJam: it's going to be "a ship then new they built for him", in elvish
18:02 obra seen coke
18:02 jabbot obra: coke was seen 181 days 2 hours 51 minutes 42 seconds ago
18:02 audreyt I think
18:02 obra seen particle
18:02 jabbot obra: I havn't seen particle, obra
18:02 PerlJam audreyt: that sounds good too.
18:04 PerlJam I'm probably hung up on all the negativity people have towards perl6, so "renewed shall be the blade that was broken" seems to fit (even if it's only "broken" in the sense the many people believe it to be)
18:04 svnbot6 r9215 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Prelude: s/walked along/walked alone/, spinclad++
18:04 audreyt PerlJam: I thought you meant p5 was broken :D
18:05 audreyt (and I don't think it is, really)
18:05 PerlJam audreyt: hey, that too.  :)
18:05 SolidState lol
18:05 audreyt and it's already used in Pugs.Rule
18:05 PerlJam yeah, I know.
18:06 PerlJam (who said there were rules?  ;-)
18:06 SolidState audreyt: In a little while it will be Pugs Rulez :)
18:06 ayrnieu ?eval join(<:>): 1,2,3
18:07 evalbot_9214 Error:  unexpected ":" expecting word character, block construct, term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
18:07 * PerlJam springs a light from the shadow and shines it on everyone.
18:07 PerlJam just making sure you're all awake  ;)
18:07 audreyt I'll find a poem for Prereqs.hs later
18:07 audreyt going to go 1)eat 2)sleep now
18:08 audreyt bbl :) /me waves
18:08 PerlJam be well audreyt
18:08 * rgs waves too
18:08 * rgs wonders what time it is in .il
18:08 anatoly 8:08pm
18:08 SolidState 20:10
18:09 rgs my $localtime + 1 then :)
18:09 SolidState but the auction is still going strong :)
18:09 anatoly what's being auctioned and why? I missed the whole conference thing.
18:10 * TimToady should eat too.  ciao.
18:10 rgs anatoly: anything, and for money.
18:10 SolidState anatoly: mostly books
18:10 rgs and for fun, too, of course.
18:10 ayrnieu ?eval $::*<b> = 1; $b
18:10 evalbot_9214 Error:  unexpected "<" expecting word character
18:11 * ayrnieu gives up for now.
18:11 PerlJam TimToady: you be well too.  There's this truck number I keep worrying about :0)
18:11 SolidState battery running low, so bye for now
18:11 PerlJam er, :-)
18:11 SamB joined perl6
18:13 ayrnieu http://search.cpan.org/~autrijus/Perl6-Bible/lib/Perl6/Bible/S28.pod # $0 and $0 are contradictory, aren't they?
18:14 sandrina joined perl6
18:16 ayrnieu ?eval $::(b) = 1; $b
18:16 evalbot_9215 Error: No such sub: "&b"
18:17 ayrnieu ?eval $::('b') = 1; $b
18:17 evalbot_9215 Error: Undeclared variable: "$b"
18:18 PerlJam ayrnieu: it would appear so.
18:18 PerlJam the second $0 should probably be $/
18:18 PerlJam or perhaps it's a scoping issue.
18:20 PerlJam no, $/ is string context is the "string matched by the last successful match"
18:20 PerlJam s/is/in/
18:22 blm_ joined perl6
18:23 ayrnieu ?eval $test = rx/(.)(.)/; "hello" =~ /$test/; $0
18:24 evalbot_9215 Error: Undeclared variable: "$test"
18:24 ayrnieu ?eval my $test = rx/(.)(.)/; "hello" =~ /$test/; $0
18:24 evalbot_9215 Error: cannot cast from VUndef to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
18:25 ayrnieu ?eval "hello" =~ /(.) (.)/; $0
18:25 evalbot_9215 Error: cannot cast from VUndef to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
18:28 svnbot6 r9216 | iblech++ | Usual svn props.
18:28 svnbot6 r9217 | iblech++ | Fixed most (all?) tests, examples and files in ext/ WRT r9209 ($fh.readline and
18:28 svnbot6 r9217 | iblech++ | =$fh is now autochomping).
18:29 PerlJam Isn't autochomping only appropriate if the :autochomp (or whatever it's called) property is set?
18:30 PerlJam (or if you're reading via =<>)
18:30 PerlJam i.e., for =<> { ... } autochomps, while for =$fh { ... } does not.
18:31 ayrnieu S29 makes it default
18:31 PerlJam oh, I have haven't yet read the changes to S29
18:32 ayrnieu "Note: Most users should just let their I/O handles autochomp instead. (Autochomping is the default.)"
18:35 marmic joined perl6
18:37 * PerlJam boggles at "constant Int Int::pi = 3;"
18:40 ayrnieu ?eval constant Str Str::asciibet = "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz"; asciibet.say
18:40 evalbot_9217 Error:  unexpected "S" expecting term postfix, operator, ":", ",", postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
18:41 ayrnieu ?evas sub Str::asciibet { "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz" }  asciibet.say
18:42 ayrnieu ?eval sub Str::asciibet { "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz" }  asciibet.say
18:42 evalbot_9217 OUTPUT[asciibet ] bool::true
18:43 lypanov left perl6
18:43 ayrnieu ?eval sub Str::asciibet { "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz" }  Str::asciibet().say
18:43 evalbot_9217 OUTPUT[abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz ] bool::true
18:46 PerlJam P5chop and P5chomp are weird.  Why do we have these?
18:47 PerlJam and why aren't they named Perl5::chop and Perl5::chomp?
18:48 lypanov joined perl6
18:51 chris2 wb lypanov
18:51 lypanov thx chris2
18:58 Arathorn is now known as Aragone
18:59 * aufrank waits...
19:08 svnbot6 r9218 | aufrank++ | Filled out previously empty 'Variable scoping' section.
19:08 svnbot6 r9218 | aufrank++ | At best incomplete; most likely needs to be corrected.
19:08 aufrank w00t!
19:26 typonaise joined perl6
19:27 xerox Do you know of a wiki who does LaTeX syntax?
19:28 aufrank the math articles on wikipedia have nice markup, but I don't know how they do it
19:28 integral just for maths?   mediawiki has a plugin, I'd guess that oddmuse did
19:28 integral wikipedia use TeX
19:28 integral usemod should do too
19:29 wolverian mediawiki. some perl wikis have a plugin for it too
19:29 xerox Hmm, no, more generally
19:29 wolverian (but anyway, I wonder how mathml is doing nowadays)
19:29 integral bloody awfully :-(   even mozilla seems to not like doing it out of the box.   Amaya appears to be just about it
19:29 avarab xerox: there's an extension for MW but you'll have to hack it to get it to work
19:29 avarab probably
19:29 avarab it's simple to make it work though
19:29 integral (and mathematica, and stuff)
19:29 mj41__ joined perl6
19:29 avarab i.e. to make an extension that does that
19:30 wolverian integral, sigh :/
19:30 xerox Danke.
19:30 avarab just a matter of hooking into the parser, taking latex input and producing pdf,ps,dvips on demand
19:30 wolverian hm, epiphany does render it here out of the box
19:30 wolverian (ubuntu 5.10)
19:30 xerox I want html out!
19:30 integral latex2html
19:31 integral wolverian: ooh!
19:31 avarab latex2html probably isn't in ubuntu by default
19:31 avarab (non-free)
19:31 wolverian missing some fonts, though
19:31 wolverian don't know if they're installable from the packages.
19:31 integral oh, that's what I mean
19:32 putter joined perl6
19:32 wolverian oh, take that back. it seems to be some weirdness in interpreting the mathml, rather. particularly the set "in" test
19:33 wolverian I guess it's not that ready, yet :)
19:33 avarab wolverian: mediawiki mathml?
19:33 wolverian avarab, epiphany mathml rendering
19:33 avarab ah
19:34 * avarab lost
19:34 wolverian I'll try with the latest dapper version when I'm home
19:34 Nouk joined perl6
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19:39 * putter wonders if he should mention to audreyt and nothingmuch that he is reblessing transparent-api Match objects into asts... na. ;)
19:40 putter integral: I like your warnocked "there's not something simple like: $obj.Perl6::IdRole::id; ?"
19:41 integral *shrug* ever time I mention that you should be able to talk about methods provided by a specific role of a class, I get ignored.
19:41 integral I guess it's just too bloody simple.
19:42 integral I tried posting to p6l once too (about sometime else), also warnocked.
19:42 putter :(
19:42 integral my post which wasn't warnocked, was replied to, but the questions/points weren't answered/addressed.
19:44 putter one thing it seems p6 still doesnt have a good story for is how to deal with the usual "people design really bad method api's, and then you are stuck with them".
19:46 PerlJam putter: Isn't the answer "grow a good API"?
19:47 putter you can locally abandon .foo and use multi foo($o).  perhaps selectively macro from .foo to foo().  but class identity and set-of-methods still seem rather tightly bound.
19:48 putter PerlJam: explain?
19:48 * integral predicts warnocking of this on p6l since it's about something the other people haven't though of, and don't understand without thinking about it
19:50 PerlJam I'm sure there's some name for it in the style of the GoF book, but if the method API sucks, you can always slowly create a new one in the same class or create a new class that has the "good" API and proxies for the old class
19:50 putter ah yes, but say...
19:50 PerlJam Given perl6's ability to alias anything, getting the names right shouldn't be a big problem.
19:52 putter beginning p6 programmer creates first of breed class Zog with unfortunate implementation and method names.  lots of code starts using Zogs and it's methods.  Zogs show up in lots of folks' sub signatures.
19:53 ayrnieu *bam*!  Perl6 is ruined forever.
19:53 ayrnieu Its culture Zogified, as with the Pickaxe and Ruby.
19:54 integral you have to make something that does Zog, but isn'ta Zog...
19:54 putter Someone does Zog2, Zim. (hmm, I should have called "Zog" "Doh";)  how does the world gracefully and rapidly migrate to Zim?  Say ideally requiring a one-line change per application.
19:55 integral surely the key part isn't upgrading signatures,  but upgrading where .new is called?
19:55 integral I mean, if this were haskell, you just make Zim an instance of Zog's typeclass
19:56 putter if we can  class A{};  class B does A{};  sub f(A &x){}  f(B.new);, then yes, signatures arent an issue.
19:56 integral we must be able to do that surely?
19:56 putter I don't know what the current state on classes being roles is.
19:56 bd_ joined perl6
19:57 putter hmm, .new ...
19:58 putter actually, i guess the "one line per application" isnt the interesting case.  that would be something like "require Zog; (# so it doesnt get loaded later #)  Zog := Zim;"
19:59 integral "require Zog;"?  I wonder how %INC is handled now, could be it just looks for a Zog module, in which case Zog := Zim is sufficient
19:59 integral but then, there's also the module versioning stuff that could be used for this aliases
20:01 putter hmm, there's another story - someone creates a  Zog-n.nn-betterprogrammer module fork.
20:01 PerlJam putter: you know, Larry's work with the p5<->p5 translator could come in handy with this problem.  It might even be easyish given we start and end with perl6
20:01 avar joined perl6
20:02 binary42 joined perl6
20:02 integral PerlJam: you mean a tool that helps a mass module name change in an app?
20:02 * putter expects to write  use Foo-(undef)-quz;  a great deal.   Ie, I don't care about the version, but I want Joe's.
20:02 integral for some webapps, I have found it semi-useful to be able to hook in customisations just from the cgi script frontend, without modifying the main source
20:02 PerlJam Someone builds a mapping from Zog->Zim and the one line change becomes "use ZogZimTransmogrifier;"
20:03 putter re .new...   my method BUILD(... no that doesnt work...  my method new() {...}; ...?
20:04 putter err, s/new()/new($cls where $cls ~~ Zog)/ ?
20:04 putter my method new(Class $cls where $cls ~~ Zog){...}; ?
20:05 PerlJam putter: Re: use Foo-(undef)-quz;  the other question is, how do we as a community decide whose Foo you get by default if you just type "install Foo"?  (or do you even get a default at all)
20:06 lisppaste3 joined perl6
20:06 putter ooo.  hmm.  can we create loadable "namespace map" modules so the choice is somewhat less critical?
20:08 putter on a p6 level, if you load Foo-(undef)-quz and Foo-(undef)-hee, which one do you get when you say Foo?
20:09 putter oh, before I forget again...
20:10 PerlJam putter: And where's the policy information stored? And how do we change it?
20:13 putter nothingmuch, audreyt, etal: what is the intended behavior of incomplete Match objects?  eg, in p5, /(a\1)/ has the match object appear to stringify as "a" when you are at pos 1, and "aa" later.  is this p6 spec too?  eg /(a{ $/[0] eq "a" })/   hmm, what happens if I return out of an unfinished capture? ;)
20:18 putter looking at http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/syn/S11.html /Versioning,
20:20 putter can one do simultaneously constrain both version and authority?  ie, 1.whatever-joe, or >2.0-bob?
20:26 putter ok, "its full name is automatically aliased to the short name for the rest of your lexical scope."   So I guess  use Dog-0.1; use Dog-0.2;  my Dog $spot;   makes spot a 0.2.
20:27 sandrina is now known as sandrina_l
20:29 putter hmm.  does that mean   {use Dog;} die "bug?" if exists ::Dog;  
20:29 SamB joined perl6
20:30 putter Is the whole use()d shortname module hierarchy (eg Foo::Bar::Hee)  merely a hallucination of the current lexical scope?
20:31 nnunley joined perl6
20:36 Maddingue joined perl6
20:37 putter If so, does that mean if $o.ref eq 'Dog', you may have a dioxygenase and not a canine?
20:38 putter (ok, that should just be said  $o.ref ~~ ::Dog and it works.)
20:39 SolidState joined perl6
20:39 * putter is puzzled.  intrigued, but puzzled.
20:41 putter ayrnieu: :) # re bam
20:46 putter {package A{our $x=3}} {module B-2.3{our $x=4}} {module B-3.1{our $x=5}}  I expect $A::x == 3;.  What about $B::x?
20:47 putter is it even defined?
20:56 putter re .id, can someone make a case for its deserving such prime huffman encoding?  for its use in perl6 being much more common than in ruby?  as mentioned, ruby started with .id(), and it was a silly idea even back then.  so bad, they are paying the change-cost to switch to .object_id().  please let .id() just be a placeholder till we think of something nicer. ;)
20:57 PerlJam putter: can you make a case *against* the huffmanization of .id?
20:58 PerlJam (i.e. what are the specific reasons that ruby is paying the change cost?)
20:58 integral I could make a case that any object is only ever going to have one primary key that you're going to want to use for hashes, ORMs, etc
20:58 integral and that if you want different ids for different things, you just throw an adaptor object around it
20:58 putter PerlJam: google "id" returns 3,780,000,000 hits.
20:58 putter ;)
21:00 putter ie, "id" has domain specific meaning in a lot of domains, and thus is too valuable to users to be taken by the language.
21:00 PerlJam integral: Hmm.  .id, .hash, .repr, ... we already have many.
21:00 integral *sigh*
21:01 integral I still like the way haskell does methods,  where you have to actually import the typeclass before you see them.  But people seem to swoon over ducktyping and think it's so brilliant
21:01 PerlJam putter: That's an odd way to put it.  I'd say that .id is too generic and not specific to any single domain what-so-ever.
21:01 PerlJam (and as such, too valuable to users to be taken by the language)
21:03 putter user works-in domain, has-concept-of "id".  for large number of users/domains. ;)
21:04 integral the same applies to the "bark" method.   Dog lovers want to hear their favourite canine, but tree huggers want their favourite silver birch
21:06 putter hmm, how many "bark" methods have you seen outside of oo docs?  how many id methods?  (for me, "I can't think of a one", and "lots")
21:07 integral hmm, no id's from my ORM use, since I tend to go with person_id as a field of the person tuple
21:07 integral I have lots of as_strings
21:07 amnesiac joined perl6
21:09 putter cpan "bark", 10 hits, all p6 related. "id", 3613 hits.
21:11 putter integral: right.  hmm, "uid" 398 hits.  "unique_id" 20, "unique id" 223, "person id" 10.
21:12 putter "person_id" 7
21:13 putter including Rosetta :)
21:21 putter module A-1{module B-2{module C-8{}}module B-3{module C-9{}}}}   {use A-(1|5)::B-(1..2)::C-(/8/); A::B::C->new("neat:)")}
21:29 putter BEGIN{@usable = ( ({$^v>1.3},'ernie'), (undef,'bert'), ({$^v>0.4},'snuf') ); }  use Foo-(@usable);  # non-spec
21:30 putter integral: ORM?
21:31 integral object-relational mapping
21:31 putter ah
21:31 integral like Class::DBI, Alzabo, etc
21:31 integral but not really including phrasebooks, and I suspect Rosetta
21:31 * putter googles/cpans for Alzabo...
21:32 putter lol. Alzabo's SYNOPSIS: Cannot be summarized here.
21:36 putter ah, interesting
21:39 integral hmm, DBIx::Class seems to be moving away from Class::DBI and more towards alzabo
21:40 r0nny_ joined perl6
21:41 SolidState Has anyone here managed to build Pugs on Windows XP?
21:43 szbalint I would think so. I'm the wrong person to ask about it though.
21:43 pulsar joined perl6
21:43 putter DBIx::Class uses Class::C3 (and ->reinitialize() ;)
21:46 putter SolidState: win32, http://www.jwcs.net/~jonathan/perl6/ ?
21:47 integral that's Jonathan's website, and Jonathan can be found on irc.perl.org #parrot
21:48 binary42 left perl6
21:48 stevan_ putter: DBIx::Class uses Class::C3 in a pretty sane way though
21:48 SolidState integral: thanks, I'll try to find him
21:49 putter SolidState: there is also a note in the README that embedding perl5 should be avoided.
21:50 putter stevan_: hi stevan.  so, there are sane and not-sane ways to use C3? :)
21:50 stevan_ putter: hey :) of course there is,.. all my modules have a "use sane" pragma :P
21:50 putter lol
21:50 stevan_ use sanity; { no sanity; }
21:51 stevan_ lexical pragmas
21:51 SolidState putter: thanks, I read that and am following that instruction
21:51 stevan_ putter: using Class::C3 with lots of reinit calls is not sane
21:51 putter like strict?  perl6 -e '...defaults to no sanity?...'?
21:51 stevan_ but as of 0.11 Class::C3 must be manually initialized
21:52 stevan_ package Pugs; ^sanity ::= ^insanity;
21:52 stevan_ package Pugs; ^sanity ::= (^insanity | ^sanity).pick;
21:53 putter just how costly is the reinit stuff?  any why?  being somewhat unmotivated to doing a correct-but-slow p6 on p5, I was pondering C3-like "mash all the symbol tables so the right thing happens" games.
21:53 putter lol # .pick
21:53 stevan_ putter: reinit removes all the methods, then adds them back again
21:54 putter right
21:54 stevan_ if you are only affecting one package,.. not a big deal, but if its a lot of package, then it might be
21:54 putter might be?  known to be?   profiled? :)
21:55 stevan_ a) might be
21:55 putter lol
21:55 SolidState Jonathan not answering on #parrot on irc.perl.org, so I guess he's offline. I have to go now also, so bye for now :)
21:56 putter SolidState: sorry, good luck.  and,
21:56 putter several developers use windows, so answers likely exist, this is just the quiet time of day on #perl6.
21:57 SolidState putter: np, getting late here too - will pick this up tomorrow...
21:57 putter right. good night.
22:00 putter stevan_: do an XS dispatch table so multi's are as fast as subs? :)
22:01 stevan_ putter: you mean CLOS like multis? where they are all global?
22:01 stevan_ oh wait ... I see what you mean
22:02 putter actually, that doesnt quite work.  still need to pay .ref costs.  really want type inference info passed with calls.  and that can be pure p6.
22:02 putter s/p6/p5/
22:02 stevan_ putter: have you see Devel::TypeCheck (or whatever it is called)?
22:02 svnbot6 r9219 | SolidState++ | Added tests for chomp on arrays. Should not break anything as all tests marked as todo (feature).
22:03 putter don't think so, looking...
22:06 stevan_ I am not sure it is useful for our (evil) purposes
22:11 putter neat.  Fail(3). :(  if it did objects, I'd be tempted to play, but it looks like that's todo.
22:11 stevan_ yeah
22:11 putter one advantage we have is we control the classes being used (not random p5 pkgs), so they can cooperate to assist dispatch.
22:12 stevan_ true dat
22:12 putter eg, maybe class uid numbers and a goo-like compressed-sparse-multimethod-dispatch-tab le
22:13 * putter looks for goo reference... have to go soon...
22:14 justatheory joined perl6
22:14 stevan_ Class::MultiMethods and C::MM::Pure might be a good ref
22:15 typonaise joined perl6
22:15 putter http://people.csail.mit.edu/jrb/goo/goo-at-harvard.pdf
22:16 Limbic_Region joined perl6
22:19 stevan_ :D
22:19 stevan_ http://people.csail.mit.edu/jrb/goo/
22:19 chris2 goo
22:20 chris2 ooh. a wonderful thing
22:22 putter http://people.csail.mit.edu/jrb/goo/ 's http://people.csail.mit.edu/jrb/goo/goo-imp.pdf and http://people.csail.mit.edu/jrb/goo/goo-boot.pdf are quick skims.  but goo is dead (jrb has too many other interesting things to do).  and it's not clear the fast subtype/dispatch stuff was ever actually implemented?
22:23 putter chris2: :)
22:23 chris2 too bad it fell asleep
22:23 xerox Waffle waffle waffle.
22:25 * putter thinks part of the problem was the goo documentation was really crufty, which didnt help the language catch on.
22:26 ghenry joined perl6
22:26 * stevan_ cant even find a simple hello-world in goo
22:27 avar what's goo?
22:28 chris2 putter: yeah
22:28 chris2 putter: and that the first releases didnt ship the (meta)compiler
22:29 xerox Some creditable sources thinks that he recalls hearing jrb was working at a new startup or something.
22:29 chris2 really?
22:29 chris2 i heard jrb in november say he wanted to revive goo
22:29 chris2 well, "heard". read.
22:32 blm_ is now known as blm
22:33 putter neat.  gotta go.  is anyone playing with the new pugs p6 parse tree output?  -CYaml-Parse is it?  to do syntax coloring / ide-ish stuff?  or sucking the yaml into p5 and playing with simple transliteration to get a new runtime going?
22:35 xinming1983 joined perl6
22:35 putter or fleshing out the Prelude.pm, now that its speed is no longer a bottleneck?  I believe the plan is to move as much of Prim.hs to Prelude.pm as possible (audreyt: yes?).
22:36 * putter wishes audreyt backed up her work, so there was a blog entry on all the new hackathon toys.  but toys there are, so its playtime, no?
22:36 putter chao &
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23:02 Limbic_Region the other day I pointed out that on Win32, an nmake realclean; svk pull; perl Makefile.PL; nmake results in...
23:03 Limbic_Region pugs spitting out user error (Error loading precompiled Prelude: Left "syntax error: line 2, column 2")
23:03 Limbic_Region Reloading Prelude from source...
23:03 Limbic_Region and then the program working
23:03 Limbic_Region it is still happening as of the most recent revision
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23:28 Limbic_Region if anyone gets around to that and needs me to do some debugging - probably best to /msg me at the Monastery
23:28 Limbic_Region I am out
23:28 Limbic_Region left perl6
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