Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-03-01

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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02:59 svnbot6 r9220 | fglock++ | * misc/pX/Common/iterator_engine_p6grammar.pl
02:59 svnbot6 r9220 | fglock++ | - working Perl 6 compiler - about 100 lines of code are now written in perl6
02:59 svnbot6 r9220 | fglock++ | - started a Prelude
02:59 svnbot6 r9220 | fglock++ |     say 'compiling Prelude';
02:59 svnbot6 r9220 | fglock++ |     sub infix:<+> { eval(' $_[0] + $_[1] ', :lang<perl5>); }
02:59 svnbot6 r9220 | fglock++ | - optimized rules - use Text::Balanced for implementing <literal> and <code>
02:59 svnbot6 r9220 | fglock++ | - 124 tests for p6rule.pl
03:00 svnbot6 r9220 | fglock++ | - note: spec change '$<>' to '$()' not applied yet
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04:00 aufrank hello all!
04:00 azuroth hi frank
04:02 aufrank if anyone has some reading time and is feeling docs-ish, I'd appreciate it if you'd commit fixes to the 'Variable scoping' section of Perl6/Overview.pod that I wrote today
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04:11 * aufrank has to go to bed
04:11 aufrank gnight!
04:18 azuroth actually, what's with perl6/overview line 159... "say @mixed.elems; #last element, prints 1.23" ?
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05:25 ayrnieu ?eval my @a = <a b c>; @a.elems
05:25 evalbot_9220 3
05:25 ayrnieu ?eval my @a = <a b c>; say @a.elems
05:25 evalbot_9220 OUTPUT[3 ] bool::true
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06:31 GeJ Morning all
06:31 ayrnieu 'morning.
06:34 PerlJam doesn't this channel ever sleep?  ;-)
06:40 azuroth only when I'm not here
06:40 Kattana Its always morning somewhere.
06:41 Kattana ..Its everytime anytime.
06:46 szabgab On the wiki of OSDC::Israel someone started to transcribe the opening Talk of Larry Wall
06:46 szabgab with some help it could be finished in a few hours http://wiki.osdc.org.il/index.php/Main_Page
06:47 szabgab exact link: http://wiki.osdc.org.il/index.php/Larry_W​all_-_Present_Continous%2C_Future_Perfect
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07:02 ayrnieu ?eval [<1 2>]
07:02 evalbot_9220 ["1", "2"]
07:02 ayrnieu ?eval my @a = <'a b' c>; my @b = <<'a b' c>>; [[@a], [@b]]
07:02 evalbot_9220 [["\'a", "b\'", "c"], ["\'a", "b\'", "c"]]
07:04 ayrnieu as neither Juerd nor SDF are likely to get back to me soon, I think I'll go drink a bit.  *wave*
07:08 ingy audreyt++
07:08 ingy ^^ wiki style development pioneer
07:11 obra ingy: I like to call her the first "anarchitect"
07:11 miyagawa anarchitect++
07:11 ingy :)
07:12 * ingy heads to $cafe on %scooter
07:14 obra ingy: are you back in .tw?
07:15 ingy obra: yeah
07:15 ingy obra: do you give free commit bits on jifty?
07:18 obra ingy: not yet.
07:18 obra we'd like to see a patch or two first.
07:18 obra "I'm not as cool as audrey"
07:19 ingy or me
07:19 ingy :p
07:19 obra Fair enough
07:19 * obra is uncool
07:19 obra Just a boring business guy
07:19 ingy just let go
07:19 obra Need to hire more people. Then I can let go more
07:20 obra <- hiring perl hackers and UI designers.
07:20 ingy :)
07:20 ingy &
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07:28 bd_ hm, does svn.openfoundry no longer run https?
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07:54 fglock Hi! anyone around to discuss bootstrapping p6 grammar?
07:56 fglock I've got this line: rule sub_decl { sub <ws> $fix := (infix|prefix|postfix) \: \< $id := (.*?) \> <ws>? <block> }
07:56 TimToady fglock: I think we're most of us rather trashed from late dinner last night.  The auction went on a long time.
07:57 fglock np - just in case someone reads the backlog...
07:58 fglock and then I want to declare a sub - but the grammar was not compiled yet, it was only parsed
07:58 TimToady In the long run foofix:<?> has to be something recognizable as a separate term, but I understand you're bootstrapping.
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07:59 fglock so it needs to parse, compile, and continue parsing, right?
07:59 TimToady Perl 5 arranges that any sub is callable as soon as it's defined.
07:59 fglock ok
08:00 TimToady Indeed, a BEGIN is just a special sub to Perl 5.
08:01 fglock so as soon as a 'rule' is parsed it should be compiled. I'm simulating this by splitting the program in chunks and parsing/compiling each one separately
08:03 fglock http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/misc/p​X/Common/iterator_engine_p6grammar.pl - just in case. I'm aware there are errors in p6 syntax, but it mostly works
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08:03 shmar lo all
08:06 webmind good morning
08:08 fglock TimToady: how about: rule sub_decl { sub ... { $().compile; return ... } }
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08:12 TimToady fglock: sorry, bit distracted getting ready to go out and sightsee in Jerusalem, so may have to bug out at any moment, but go on...
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08:13 TimToady Hmm.
08:13 TimToady That's telling a string to compile itself.  Seems a bit odd.
08:14 TimToady It's also a bit strange to refer to the complete match via $() when you haven't finished matching...
08:14 fglock not sure about the syntax, sorry - I mean, once there is a match, compile the ast
08:15 TimToady One could do a temporary compile to stupid implementation, then recompile smarter at CHECK time.
08:16 fglock like if it were just a sub prototype
08:17 TimToady Yeah, ... kinda works that way already.
08:17 TimToady Hopefully, one just re-uses the same compiler, but with more information.
08:17 TimToady you don't really need two separate compilers, which would be bad policy anyway.
08:18 TimToady The fuzz that can precompile needed bodies can presumably also be fuzzed into the
08:19 TimToady runtime direction to do on-the-fly optimization.
08:19 TimToady All a matter of knowing what's needed right now, and what you can get away with based on the current status.
08:20 fglock mm - lazy compilation
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08:20 TimToady CHECK time is just the most usual place to think about that.
08:21 TimToady Obviously anything that changes the current grammar has to at least have its interface installed immediately.
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08:22 fglock TimToady: thanks!
08:23 TimToady welcome
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08:31 TimToady off to do the tourist thing.  tata
08:32 putter bah. missed fglock.
08:33 putter have fun.
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08:40 r0nny yo
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09:12 Wassercrats I just know one of you.
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10:07 lypanov morning chris2
10:07 lypanov chris2: today my world power adaptor kit will arrive!
10:07 lypanov shame about the errm.. lack of computer to use it for :P
10:08 chris2 hi lypanov ;)
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12:35 rafl Hello Juerd
12:36 GeJ greetings Juerd.
12:36 GeJ hum, dunno if someone told you, but I think lilo was looking for an admin on feather yesterday.
12:38 Juerd Hi
12:38 Juerd GeJ: I see. Could be. I have lilo on ignore...
12:42 lypanov lol
12:42 Juerd What's so funny? :)
12:42 Juerd Who doesn't ignore lilo... :)
12:43 lypanov Juerd: the fact that the idea is sane ;)
12:46 mauke oh, should I remove my "lol" filter?
12:47 mauke I seem to be missing a line
12:55 Juerd                      
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12:57 Juerd mauke: Any else missing?
12:58 mauke no, thanks
12:59 lypanov mauke: lol
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13:10 fglock putter: pong
13:13 fglock Juerd: cgi-irc in feather has stopped
13:16 fglock Juerd: it may be a problem with https - wget gives 'SSL23_GET_SERVER_HELLO:unknown protocol'
13:16 svnbot6 r9221 | audreyt++ | * scratchpad with nothingmuch on designing piln desugaring for Code
13:16 svnbot6 r9221 | audreyt++ |   objects in order to run on p5 ObjectSpace
13:18 Juerd Can't fix it now anyway, so you'll have to cope without
13:20 fglock Juerd: np - I've just learned irssi :)
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13:23 audreyt rehi from tel aviv airport
13:24 audreyt going to fly to vienna, then duesseldorf, arriving at midnight, _then_ deliverying two talks starting from tomorrow morning
13:24 rgs german perl workshop ?
13:24 audreyt yeah
13:24 audreyt fglock++ # woot, compiler!
13:25 rgs please hug Nicholas for his pumpkinging then
13:25 audreyt will do!
13:25 audreyt boarding in 6mins... bbiab. :)
13:25 fglock audreyt: hi! I'd appreciate a code review, specially in the part written in p6
13:26 audreyt will definitely do it during flight
13:26 fglock thanks! p6grammar.pl is the main file
13:27 audreyt I look forward to turn the much normalized p6 parsing as committed by recent Synopses to this
13:27 audreyt but I need to run now. will sync back tonight
13:27 * audreyt waves &
13:27 fglock that's S05? link?
13:28 audreyt it's all in Perl6::Bible
13:28 audreyt see p6l for my commit logs
13:28 audreyt and larry's
13:28 fglock ok! have a nice trip!
13:28 audreyt mostly, "my $f = sub x {...}" (without trailning newline) is valid
13:28 audreyt also much clearer macro rules
13:28 audreyt and import rules
13:28 audreyt so "use" and "BEGIN" can be written as macros relatively easily
13:28 audreyt will journal about htem
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13:46 gaal audreyt: will have had a nice flight!
13:47 lypanov hehe
13:48 Juerd rafl: Try again
13:48 rafl Juerd: Same IP address?
13:49 Juerd I think so.
14:05 Juerd              
14:06 Juerd That happens every time I come out of suspend...
14:06 Juerd I don't know why.
14:06 rafl Stop suspending then.
14:06 Juerd Give me your charger, then.
14:06 rafl Erm, no.
14:06 rafl Get an 8-cell battery.
14:06 Juerd Yeah, yeah
14:06 Juerd I know
14:13 * lypanov refrains from using his normal response "buy a mac"
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15:05 nothingmuch morning
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15:08 anatoly morning
15:09 anatoly actually, why morning? :)
15:09 webmind it's afternoon here
15:09 anatoly yep, here too
15:09 webmind well, good afternoon then :)
15:09 anatoly right, good afternoon :)
15:10 anatoly turning evenegish though, and then it'll be a good evening, I guess?
15:12 justatheory joined perl6
15:14 nothingmuch yeah, you could say it's evening
15:14 nothingmuch gaal: ping
15:14 ingy hi nothingmuch
15:15 nothingmuch ingy: please release Spork::Formatter::Kwid
15:15 nothingmuch Spork tests fail on account of it not being a dep
15:15 nothingmuch and adding it as a dep won't work, since it doesn't exist
15:16 ingy mmmm Spork
15:17 ingy hmm that's near the top of my inifinite todo list
15:17 * lypanov came back from his first trip to the states with a spork
15:17 * lypanov was most happy
15:18 nothingmuch at the OSDC dinner we ate with sporks
15:20 * lypanov grins
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15:23 gaal nothingmuch: pong
15:23 gaal I got your stuff
15:23 nothingmuch goodness
15:23 nothingmuch i also dropped my phone somewhere on the way to the train station
15:23 gaal eep
15:23 nothingmuch so i'll be dropping by for a visit say saturday
15:24 gaal cool, i think i'll make pizza and also invite bsb and lumi over
15:24 gaal we can have an afterparty :)
15:24 gaal what's svk for "svn st", from my local wc to the upstream?
15:25 nothingmuch huraah
15:25 fglock joined perl6
15:27 lypanov gaal: i just use svn di /trunk .
15:27 nothingmuch hola fglock
15:29 gaal lypanov: "path /trunk is not a checkout path."
15:29 lypanov gaal: sorry thats your umm.. forgot the name. your um... thingy
15:31 fglock nothingmuch: hi!
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15:34 * fglock looks for what to do next
15:38 svnbot6 r9222 | gaal++ |  r9243@sike:  roo | 2006-03-01 16:46:12 +0200
15:38 svnbot6 r9222 | gaal++ |  * Some last cleanups to Peek talk. Online at
15:38 svnbot6 r9222 | gaal++ |    http://perlcabal.org/~gaal/peek/start.hml
15:46 anatoly moose, gaal
15:50 GeJ gaal: I get a 404 on the URL
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15:57 nothingmuch seen luqui?
15:57 jabbot nothingmuch: luqui was seen 31 days 8 hours 10 minutes 27 seconds ago
15:57 nothingmuch ugh
15:57 nothingmuch his mail bounces, too
15:57 nothingmuch gaal: btw, i am renaming OSDC to ØSDC
15:58 nothingmuch please help me hack gabor's server
16:01 Arathorn zero source? :D
16:07 nothingmuch 2haha
16:07 nothingmuch • [syeeda:~] nothingmuch % cd /tmp/
16:07 nothingmuch • [syeeda:/tmp] nothingmuch % mkdir foo
16:07 nothingmuch mkdir: foo: File exists
16:07 nothingmuch • [syeeda:/tmp] nothingmuch % mkdir moose
16:07 nothingmuch mkdir: moose: File exists
16:12 svnbot6 r9223 | fglock++ | iterator_engine - implemented '??' quantifier
16:21 gaal rehi
16:21 gaal s/hml/html/ in that URL
16:22 gaal hey toly!
16:27 r0nny joined perl6
16:32 anatoly hey gaal
16:39 svnbot6 r9224 | fglock++ | iterator_engine - implemented <?non_capturing_subrule>
16:43 * nothingmuch is avoiding his sister
16:43 nothingmuch she doesn't know we bought her an ipod for her birthday
16:43 nothingmuch and now she wants me to burn her CDs
16:43 nothingmuch ;-)
16:45 Juerd In a talk here ("What's wrong with Parrot and Perl 6"), one major argument is that there are 0 lines of code yet for Perl 6.
16:46 Juerd This ignores pugs, this ignores the 35000+ lines in unit tests...
16:46 Juerd I don't even know how to begin to react to that...
16:46 Juerd And then, it discusses pugs...
16:46 Juerd Ah well, Audrey will convince the audience tomorrow :)
16:47 fglock about rules: <!abc> is a negation of '<abc>' or 'abc' ?
16:47 kolibrie nothingmuch: burn one or two, just so she doesn't get suspicious
16:48 lypanov Juerd: lol
16:48 nothingmuch kolibrie: the surprise party is saturday
16:48 nothingmuch i told her my itunes is broken and that we'll do it saturday or something instead
16:48 lypanov hehehe
16:48 kolibrie nothingmuch: :)
16:48 Juerd fglock: Probably :)
16:48 nothingmuch Juerd: hehe
16:49 nothingmuch Juerd: whose giving the talk?
16:49 Juerd nothingmuch: Marc Lehmann
16:49 Juerd Assuming "Who's"
16:49 nothingmuch i was speaking inglesit
16:49 Juerd Argument: "Weak typing != Strong typing", "Developers are biased to strong typing, as you can see in the many examples."
16:50 nothingmuch who giving the talk belongs to?
16:50 Juerd Ignoring that weak typing, and anything in between strong and weak typing, is still possible.
16:50 nothingmuch uh
16:50 nothingmuch is he against weak typing?
16:50 nothingmuch or for it?
16:50 Juerd For it.
16:50 Juerd Or so is my interpretation
16:51 Juerd Current bashing: "-> becomes ., like the rest of the world uses".
16:51 nothingmuch okay
16:51 Juerd Memo to all: no pun in documents...
16:51 nothingmuch err
16:51 nothingmuch perl 6 *has* strict typing
16:51 nothingmuch is he giving a perl 6 sucks talk without having read the synopses etc?
16:52 * fglock types on a weak keyboard
16:53 Juerd Argument wrt the dot: java versus prel
16:53 Juerd perl
16:53 nothingmuch hahahaha
16:53 Juerd "Why does it have to look like java?"
16:53 * nothingmuch finds it borderline-pathetic that people are so hung up on syntax
16:53 Juerd "Look at this lwall quote: C uses i++, while java uses system().foo().bar().i().val​ue().please().increment();"
16:53 Juerd This is FUD.
16:53 Juerd There is no ground in this whatsoever.
16:53 Juerd Moving from -> to . will *not* make $i++ go away.
16:54 nothingmuch in fact
16:54 nothingmuch did he notice that . is 50% of the length of ->?
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16:54 nothingmuch that's like haviing i+ autoincrement ;-)
16:54 nothingmuch TimToady: is there any draft on AG stuff i can read?
16:54 Juerd nothingmuch: Yes, but that was not important.
16:55 nothingmuch if not, i started writing a draft based on roles
16:55 nothingmuch but i'd like a lexical form of 'but' first
16:55 nothingmuch since that'll make it much nicer
16:55 Juerd Argument: "The bless fundamentally incompatible thread didn't end in concensus, decision or implementation"
16:55 nothingmuch maybe 'temp', actually
16:55 nothingmuch err
16:55 Juerd As if only measurable progress is progress...
16:55 nothingmuch we still have bless
16:56 nothingmuch it's just going to remain ugly and slow, is all
16:56 nothingmuch are you arguing back?
16:56 Juerd No.
16:56 TimToady nothingmuch: not that I know of.
16:56 Juerd What does "lueckenhaft" mean?
16:56 * Juerd wants a dictionary that is text browser compatible
16:56 mauke http://dict.leo.org/?search=lueckenhaft
16:56 mauke oh
16:56 mauke fragmentary, incomplete
16:57 nothingmuch TimToady: is there a genral direction in which the tree processing stuff was going to grow? or is it already clear that it's going to be attribute grammarish
16:57 mauke Juerd: works in w3m
16:58 Juerd Ah
16:58 TimToady I think AG is actually somewhat limited, but I'm not sure where to go from there.
16:58 Juerd Title of slide "Who wants or needs Perl 6"?
16:58 Juerd I immediately reacted "I do"
16:58 Juerd "Why?"
16:58 Juerd "Neat new features"
16:58 Juerd "Like?"
16:58 Juerd "@several"
16:58 Juerd The reply to which was, more or less, but you don't *need* that.
16:59 Juerd And: but with Parrot it won't be possible (one of the features I named was threading in a nice way)
16:59 nothingmuch TimToady: i'll read the SYB article first
16:59 nothingmuch it's supposed to be interesting
16:59 nothingmuch IMHO ags are not very flexible
16:59 nothingmuch but capture a specific form of processing very very well
16:59 Juerd I'm considering giving my Perl 6 myths lightening talk tomorrow or the day after
17:00 nothingmuch Juerd: *sigh*
17:00 nothingmuch i hope it helps (audrey, your lightning talk)
17:00 nothingmuch i had a pretty lame talk at OSDC about compiling Perl 6
17:00 nothingmuch and why I think it will work out in the end
17:01 Juerd Most of this talk, though, is technical and against Parrot. I can't judge or argue that, but I think that in that he's right.
17:01 nothingmuch things that Perl 6 will be able to do but that Perl 5 can't (too hard to hack guts, too few strong/static semantics)
17:01 nothingmuch are his slides online?
17:01 fglock TimToady: is <!abc> a negation of '<abc>' (or 'abc') ? is <!'abc'> right?
17:01 Juerd I don't know
17:02 Juerd "Perl 6 is blocking [Perl 5]"
17:02 nothingmuch isn't the CPAN still growing polynomially?
17:02 Juerd Most of his slides are citations, though
17:02 Juerd The real remarks are in speech
17:03 nothingmuch hmm
17:03 TimToady <!'abc'> is short for <!before 'abc'>, though in this case the quotes don't do anything.
17:03 Aankhen`` joined perl6
17:03 TimToady <!abc> just means treat fail if <abc> would succeed at this point.
17:04 TimToady s/treat//
17:05 Juerd "autoboxing, another neat word we took from Java"
17:05 nothingmuch err
17:05 nothingmuch java didn't have that for a long while
17:05 nothingmuch and it reads "performance"
17:05 fglock TimToady: ok
17:05 nothingmuch it's completely non user visisble
17:05 nothingmuch (except in java)
17:05 Juerd These arguments are so irrelevant to the actual language that I can't argue with them.
17:05 Juerd I'd need to research stuff.
17:05 Juerd I hate this.
17:06 nothingmuch ask him to put an IRC screen up
17:06 nothingmuch i'll be happy to argue with him
17:06 nothingmuch =)
17:06 Juerd Nah, would take too long, I think.
17:06 Juerd And the audience is German
17:06 nothingmuch we had an IRC screen at OSDC
17:06 nothingmuch during the auction
17:06 nothingmuch loads of fun
17:06 Juerd (All the English citations are (correctly) translated -- English in the slide, translated in speech)
17:07 Juerd "?? !!" is questioned WITHOUT ANY DISCUSSION of why it is there.
17:08 Juerd And without any discussion; next slide.
17:09 Juerd Unicode characters would make the code unreadable.
17:09 Juerd The point in the slide being "Code (un)readable?"
17:10 Juerd "Who proves that the new operator works? Hm, well, pugs, maybe, but..."
17:10 Juerd s/new operator/operator move around/
17:10 Juerd Or however you'd translate that
17:11 nothingmuch *sigh*
17:11 nothingmuch Migo: what do you think of Perl 6's fudgery after a few days with it?
17:11 Juerd Hm, finally a real argument
17:11 Juerd Twigils are hard, and there's "twigilitis". This one I agree with.
17:12 nothingmuch all twigils have a long form
17:12 Migo nothingmuch: mixed filling. My first reaction was against "?? !!", against unicode, against haskel, whatever :-)
17:12 Juerd "Buzzword compliant Microsoft vocabulary?"
17:12 nothingmuch $*IN --> $GLOBAL::IN
17:12 nothingmuch if he prefers that
17:12 Juerd nothingmuch: See perlvar versus English.
17:12 Juerd For reading code, you need to know them.
17:12 nothingmuch i guess i can see that, but twigils have a sort of consistent feel to them
17:13 nothingmuch and the variable *names* are typically good enough
17:13 Juerd Agreed, but they do make things harder.
17:13 nothingmuch Migo: what do you feel about this now that you have gotten to know more? http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/ext/​Getopt-Process/lib/Getopt/Process.pm
17:13 Juerd I think for good, he thinks for bad.
17:13 Juerd That's just gut feeling.
17:13 Juerd Now being bashed: STM and non-locking
17:14 nothingmuch anyway, it sounds like he hasn't tried writing any
17:14 Juerd But I don't understand it all.
17:14 nothingmuch HHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
17:14 nothingmuch he is arguing *for* threads?
17:14 nothingmuch err
17:14 nothingmuch locks
17:14 Juerd I don't know
17:14 nothingmuch okay
17:14 Juerd "This is a neat feature. Do I need it? No."
17:14 nothingmuch let him use forks
17:14 Juerd I can only translate some of what he says.
17:14 Juerd He doubts Parrot'll handle it, I think.
17:15 nothingmuch frankly, i doubt parrot will handle it too, in it's current state
17:15 nothingmuch it's seems prematurely optimized
17:15 Migo nothingmuch: I am not really against "?? !!", unicode should be completely optional, haskel is ok in small amounts. :)
17:15 Juerd Right, I agree with most of the parrot bashing.
17:15 nothingmuch but that's not to say that it can't be fixed
17:16 nothingmuch parrot is not a production target for anything
17:16 nothingmuch they have lots of freedom
17:16 Juerd "Why sponsor/grant only key developers?"
17:16 nothingmuch and it *is* fast and featureful, so far
17:16 nothingmuch yeah, i would love to get $2 a week for hacking perl 6 ;-)
17:16 Juerd Well, parrot is not fast.
17:16 Juerd He rightly argued against some much cited benchmarks
17:17 Juerd That they are unfair. He then proposed a fair benchmark, and perl5 or gcc4 would win from parrot.
17:17 nothingmuch well, i won't argue with that, i really haven't looked into it
17:17 nothingmuch but i dunno
17:17 nothingmuch Perl 6 could still run on Mono, CLR, JVM, Perl 5 optrees
17:17 Juerd Right
17:18 nothingmuch in fact, we are looking into compiling from pugs to Perl 5's optree right now
17:18 nothingmuch that will not be any slower ;-)
17:18 nothingmuch rgs said it'll be hard
17:18 nothingmuch but probably not as hard as getting a production parrot
17:18 TimToady depends on how much emulation you have to do, nothingmuch
17:18 nothingmuch anyway
17:18 nothingmuch TimToady: you mean for fast or for working?
17:18 nothingmuch fast will not be easy, i buet
17:18 nothingmuch bet
17:18 Juerd "Every idea is welcome, like this [stupid] thing: if ... { } uncond { } cond { }"
17:18 TimToady for fast.
17:19 rgs hmm PIL to p5 opcodes ?
17:19 nothingmuch TimToady: ofcourse
17:19 Juerd As if that was even close to concensus.
17:19 nothingmuch i'm mostly interested in stable and interoperable
17:19 nothingmuch that's what i'm optimistic about
17:19 nothingmuch and I am guessing that it'll be much faster than the current haskell runtime
17:19 nothingmuch rgs: aye
17:19 nothingmuch anyway, dinnertime
17:19 nothingmuch then syb time
17:19 nothingmuch then bsg time
17:19 rgs nothingmuch: which perl 5 are you targetting by the way ?
17:19 rgs syb ? bsg ?
17:20 rgs you guys speak in english 6 ? :p
17:20 nothingmuch rgs: i have no idea, i've just started poking around the perlguts in the hopes of finding optree stuff
17:20 nothingmuch ;-)
17:20 nothingmuch scrap-your-boilerplate - an article that's supposed to be a nice contrast to AGs
17:20 nothingmuch (attribute grammars)
17:20 Juerd I speak English 0.1
17:20 Juerd Beta.
17:20 Juerd (c) Google
17:20 nothingmuch bsg: battlestar galactica
17:20 nothingmuch we need a purl here
17:20 nothingmuch syb?
17:20 nothingmuch bsg?
17:20 nothingmuch that would have worked more easily =)
17:21 nothingmuch anyway, ttyl
17:21 rgs see you
17:21 nothingmuch Juerd: please mock him publicly saying he looks like a fake møøse, and send my warmest regards to balas and audrey
17:21 Juerd Ah, nice. Discussion. Leo versus Marc
17:21 rgs TimToady: do you have an opinion on that PIL to P5 ops thing ?
17:21 Juerd afk
17:22 rgs need really to "make peephole optimizer optional" I think, for that to be easier to hack
17:22 TimToady It would be easy to make it bug compatible with P5.  :-)
17:22 Juerd Unfortunately I don't understand much of the kind of German that Leo speaks :(
17:22 rgs bug compatibility, you're speaking like a maint pumpking ! :)
17:23 Juerd To me, it sounds like a combination of Scandinavian and German :)
17:23 mauke where is he from?
17:23 rgs with some parrot assembly thrown inside for good measure
17:23 Juerd .at
17:23 mauke haha, good luck
17:23 svnbot6 r9225 | fglock++ | iterator_engine - implemented <!negated_subrule>
17:24 rafl Juerd: Shall I translate for you?
17:24 Juerd I just hear "aonhu sehuantoheu snthaoeunthaeous nthaosnetu haoeu benchmarks aoeunsthaenuth aonethsnthoe just in time compiler aoesunthntehonethusnth compiler oaenuhnshnh compile time snthnthoeunt"
17:24 Juerd rafl: Feel free
17:25 rgs Juerd: at least you got the idea :)
17:27 Juerd Why does he say "und so weiter, und so (vort?)"
17:27 Juerd (both)
17:27 mauke fort
17:27 mauke usw. usf.
17:27 Juerd Is that an idiom, to have both?
17:27 mauke yes
17:28 Juerd Isee
17:29 mauke "und so fort" doesn't even exist by itself
17:29 Juerd I see
17:29 Juerd I knew usw
17:29 mauke leo translates it as yada-yada-yada :-)
17:29 Juerd We have enz ("En zo voort") in Dutch
17:30 mauke nice
17:30 fglock TimToady: does '<word> & <short>' means the match must be a short word?
17:34 Juerd Nicholas enters the stage.
17:34 Juerd Ahhh, english. Good.
17:34 * rgs applauses
17:35 TimToady fglock: it means the two subrules must match with the same length.
17:35 spinclad in english we sometimes have 'and so forth, and so on', which is likewise redundant
17:35 TimToady (over the same string)
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17:37 spinclad Juerd: I spoke with lilo about feather, referring him/her to you (ha, what did I know?) for the real story.  He/she was seeing a lot of access from feather, asked about CGI, I didn't know of any (wrong again).  He/she may have blocked cgi-irc from feather now?  (Otoh that doesn't seem to match fglock's symptom earlier.)
17:37 Juerd spinclad: Could be.
17:37 Juerd spinclad: I'll talk to him as soon as I can.
17:38 Juerd spinclad: It'll probably be easily resolved if he knows that only authenticated users can access.
17:38 spinclad Juerd: I did mention that.
17:38 Juerd I see
17:39 spinclad (but not about CGI, of course)
17:39 Juerd What was his stance?
17:40 spinclad he didn't answer back after I braindumped what I knew of #irc access on feather (typically ssh -> screen -> irssi)
17:40 Juerd Okay.
17:40 Juerd Thank you for letting me know in detail. I appreciate it.
17:40 spinclad np, glad to help, glad to not make things worse i hope
17:41 Juerd We'll see.
17:41 Juerd I think that aside from his global message spamming inclination, lilo's a reasonable guy.
17:42 Arathorn nothing wrong with global message spamming :D
17:42 spinclad too much is wrong but his level doesn't happen to bother me
17:42 Juerd spinclad: It used to be tenfold as much.
17:43 spinclad that would be much then.
17:51 nothingmuch http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/1332
17:55 rgs http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/1313 was interesting too
17:55 salty-horse joined perl6
17:56 * nothingmuch pushes to todo list
17:56 nothingmuch ;-)
17:56 nothingmuch back to syb
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18:23 * putter surfaces from perlguts, attempting to use the regexp hooks bsb++ turned up to swap in an alternate engine.  that part (sort of) works.  but setting up the regexp struct so $1,etc get set, even if you ignore leaking, blech.   But ingy++ for Inline::C.
18:25 Steve_p That's just crazy
18:29 gaal rehi
18:30 fglock putter: hi!
18:30 putter hi fglock
18:33 putter re crazy, it should actually be straightforward.   two hooks, regcomp and regexec.  comp creates a regexp struct which wont get optimized away (// works for my old 5.8), and overwrite a non-essential field in it with the pointer you wish to pass from comp to exec.  in exec, do whatever, and set up the the capture offsets.  only the captures arent showing up. :(
18:33 chihchun left perl6
18:33 putter and xs is having some funky issues calling a sub defined in one module but accessed via CORE.
18:35 fglock (I'm intermittent - meeting)
18:35 putter :)
18:36 fglock putter: regex is compiled to bytecode, right? does generating bytecode let you access more basic/useful routines, perhaps?
18:43 fglock putter: did you see the latest i_e_p6grammar.pl?
18:43 Arathorn is now known as Aragone
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18:48 shmar lo all
18:52 gaal hey shmar
18:54 fglock putter: http://perl.plover.com/Rx/paper/
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20:08 putter re bytecode, it's basically replacing the C function which does the regexp search, and (with the unclear but possible assistance of other parts of perl:( ), sets up the match values.  So it should simply be a matter of copying out that functionality.  But this is perlguts, which makes the simple incomprehensible. ;)
20:09 putter re Rx, neat! thank you.  added to the (mostly doc about what isnt working) file I'm about to commit (and then perhaps abandon).
20:10 putter re latest grammar, probably not the latest.  looking...
20:17 putter fglock: neat :)
20:33 putter oh, fribble.
20:33 svnbot6 r9226 | putter++ | misc/pX/Common/Regexp-ReplaceEngine.pm created.  Perl5 has hooks to permit interception of regexp compilation and execution.  This is an attempt to use them.  No-one really has yet.  The objective is  perl -we 'qr/a normal regexp/; {use Regexp::Perl6; qr/<ws>?<word>/}'.  Extensive comments included.  Callbacks to &regexp_hook_exec,etc subs work.  Next big step is getting $1,etc to work.  Volunteers encouraged.  It is written in Inline:
20:34 putter And a big  bsb++  for turning up the hooks.
20:34 amnesiac joined perl6
20:35 putter Hmm.  There is a line length limit in svnbot.  Have to remember that.  The rest of the log reads: It is written in Inline::C, and would deploy as a cpan XS module.
20:36 putter ingy++ # Inline::C
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20:48 svnbot6 r9227 | putter++ | Regexp-ReplaceEngine.pm: Added link to bsb's pure-perl $1,etc setter, and a "Risk" that a source filter using it might be an easier way to go.
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23:30 mauke < Yaakov> I think perl6 should be spec'd in French, the Lingua Franca of programming language specification.
23:37 svnbot6 r9228 | rootmj++ | * probably fixed
23:38 mauke wow, that was fast
23:39 mj41_ examples/tutorial_gen/ probably fixed :-) ... good night
23:42 elmex joined perl6
23:43 svnbot6 r9229 | putter++ | Move Regexp-ReplaceEngine.pm from Common to Aside as insuffiently interesting.
23:43 svnbot6 r9229 | putter++ | Variable interpolation happens before the regexp compiler hook gets the pattern.So while this hook approach is fine for creating say a reentrant p5 engine, even one with rules, it can't handle p6 regexps with variables correctly.
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