Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-03-03

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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01:12 Kattana "Perl6: Like Perl, but after major body-alteration surgery, just to make you happy. Perl6's body certainly looks younger and firmer, if you can overlook the frankensteinian scar tissue. Moreover, there are certain... enhancements. All of perl6's joints bend both ways; all of perl6's body parts are fully reconfigurable any way you like them. If your friends could see what you do with Perl6, they'd learn more about your taste than yo
01:13 avar Kattana: got cut off
01:13 nothingmuch that's kind of sick
01:14 nothingmuch someone with joints that can go both ways
01:14 * nothingmuch pushes the image out of his head before sleep
01:14 Kattana pleasent dreams nothingmuch
01:14 jisom throw in the Frankenstein's monster image into the mix
01:14 nothingmuch thanks
01:14 jisom no problem
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01:43 stevan (scrap your boilerplate)++ # really cool stuff, and I am only on page 3
01:43 obra Getting Real?
01:44 stevan 2 step recursive traversals
01:44 stevan type safe casts,..
01:44 stevan all sortsa cool stuff
01:44 obra ?
01:45 stevan its hard to explain, I expect that I only barely grok it myself
01:45 stevan its a Simon Peyton Jones paper :P
01:47 stevan http://www.cs.vu.nl/boilerplate/#papers
01:47 stevan I am just reading the first one at this point
01:47 obra Oh! it's not 37signals new book
01:48 stevan oh no :)
01:48 stevan I didnt know they had a book, let alone a new one
01:48 obra they have two
01:48 obra the new one is on "getting real"
01:50 stevan ah
01:51 stevan "Discover the smarter, faster, and easier way to build a successful web app."
01:51 stevan give us $19 and we will tell you
01:51 stevan :P
01:51 stevan what! no guinsu knife set included?
01:52 obra "It's called rails"
01:53 stevan :)
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01:54 stevan Ruby on Rails, it slices it dices, is even cuts juliane fries!
01:54 Khisanth bleh
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06:23 ayrnieu ?eval sub foo { 'hello'.say }; sub bar { foo; 'world'.say }; bar; &foo := { 'goodbye'.say }; bar
06:23 evalbot_9251 OUTPUT[hello world goodbye world ] bool::true
06:25 azuroth nifty
06:26 jisom the question is, does it do runtime checking for unsafe commands....
06:27 azuroth as in, sub foo(Carrot $a) {..}; &foo := sub (Animal $a) { ...}; type checking?
06:28 jisom as in the "rm -rf /" type
06:28 azuroth ohh, right
06:28 azuroth pretty sure it does
06:28 ayrnieu wait, what are we talking about?
06:29 jisom evalbot
06:29 azuroth doing an "eval `rm -rf /`"
06:31 ayrnieu ?eval (open "/etc/motd", :r).readline
06:31 evalbot_9251 Error: No such method in class IO: "&readline"
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07:20 huhlig is there a good site to learn perl6 yet?
07:22 revdiablo huhlig: Well, you can read the specs: http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/synopsis.html
07:22 revdiablo huhlig: Keep in mind, it's all still a work in progress
07:22 ayrnieu huhlig - pugs also comes with examples and tests.
07:23 huhlig when are they expecting some form of solidification
07:23 revdiablo When it's ready
07:23 huhlig heh
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07:39 buu CHRISTMAS
07:39 buu Solidification by christmas!
07:39 buu I love that joke.
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08:37 gaal putter: oh, go ahead and hack on Prelude.pm
08:38 gaal the only thing is that currently, an installed pugs won't find a precompiled Prelude, probably
08:38 gaal that's a simple matter of programming (and of some directory structure layout design) to fix
08:39 gaal we don't inline the precompiled prelude bytecode inside the pugs executable, so there's need to tell pugs where to find it on the disk
08:39 gaal currently there's one hardcoded location: in the source tree.
08:41 gaal if there were an easy, nonhacky, portable way to inline stuff in the executable, the gzipped version of the bytecode (which we know how to handle) is just 42k
08:43 gaal so all I was saying is that we should not release until we fix that
08:43 gaal but that doesn't mean we can't also develop more P6 prims.
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08:47 pasteling "ayrnieu" at 68.13.103.15 pasted "my rendition of $PUGS/examples/p6explain/p6explain" (19 lines, 480B) at http://sial.org/pbot/16122
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08:56 miyagawa audreyt: ping
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09:33 Alias_ miyagawa: She's still a bit thin on the ground
09:34 Arathorn her wave function has yet to be collapsed
09:34 miyagawa k
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09:53 rindolf Hi all!
09:53 rindolf How can I query CPAN for the list of distributions a certain CPAN id has?
09:57 ayrnieu in CPAN shell?  "ls $author"
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10:01 Alias_ rindolf: A one off for just you, or in code?
10:02 Alias_ because if it's just you, y'know, search.cpan
10:02 rindolf Alias_: in code. Programatically.
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10:02 Alias_ Do you mind using CPANPLUS?
10:02 Alias_ It apparently has a much better API for doing that sort of thing
10:06 Alias_ Or so everyone I know that does that sort of thing says
10:06 Alias_ Personally, I want a SQLite DBIx::Class interface :)
10:06 Alias_ Like JSAN has
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10:19 rindolf Alias_: I already whipped up a script using CPANPLUS. Sorry for bothering you.
10:19 rindolf Let me nopaste it.
10:19 Alias_ ah, ok
10:20 pasteling "rindolf" at 88.155.200.148 pasted "CPANPLUS script to return the distributions of an author." (12 lines, 321B) at http://sial.org/pbot/16123
10:20 rindolf Alias_: http://sial.org/pbot/16123
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10:25 samhain1138 rindolf: you can expand Author, and $author->ls :)
10:26 samhain1138 something like: my ($author) = CPAN::Shell->expand('Author', $id);
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10:26 szabgab when running pugs it says    "Loading Prelude... "  that takes nearly forever, maybe 5secs ? Can I get rid of that delay ?
10:33 rindolf szabgab: hi!
10:33 jp-autark isn't it supposed to read prelude.yaml?
10:33 jp-autark PreludePC.yml even.
10:34 rindolf szabgab: I sent you a patch to add some new authors and distributions to the Misc. Content Page on www.perl.org.il
10:34 szabgab rindolf: thanks
10:35 rindolf szabgab: you're welcome.
10:35 rindolf I added Gaal and Yuval Kogman.
10:37 Juerd that takes nearly forever, maybe 5secs
10:37 Juerd lol.
10:40 samhain1138 hehe :)
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10:57 Migo szabgab: when I first ran "make unoptimized" and trivial "time ./pugs -Iext/Net-IRC/lib -MNet::IRC -e 1" it took 1 minute 40 seconds. Now it takes 33 seconds on my machine.
11:01 gaal szabgab: what's your cwd when you run pugs?
11:01 szabgab I compiled optimized - so I guess this should be faster - and I only wanted to run say "hello world"
11:01 szabgab gaal: anything I use the symlink /usr/bin/perl6  pointing to pugs in my compilation directory
11:02 szabgab gaal: it is much fatster if my cwd is the same where pugs resides...
11:02 gaal right. it's a known issue: we don't look for the precompiled prelude in a system installation place
11:03 gaal I was discussing it with putter eariler if you want to see the details
11:03 szabgab gaal: no, I just want it to work fast :)
11:03 gaal well, we want that too :)
11:04 Migo "time ./pugs -e 'say <Hello, World!>'" is 3 seconds for me.
11:04 szabgab real    0m2.242s
11:04 szabgab the above for me
11:05 Migo so, I guess, it is loading modules that takes huge time
11:06 szabgab 2 sec is already reasonable for me
11:06 szabgab for now
11:07 gaal Migo, szabgab: these are known issues and we're still working to improve them.
11:08 szabgab gaal: thanks
11:09 audreyt rehi
11:09 audreyt I _finally_ got network!
11:09 gaal yay!
11:09 Juerd Hi, audreyt
11:09 * audreyt suffers from massive withdrawal
11:09 Juerd Welcome back :)
11:09 gaal heard your stuff was mismoosed? :(
11:09 audreyt my luggage has come back last night
11:10 audreyt no net @ hotel, no net @ conf site (until now)
11:10 samhain1138 gaal: so why is it so much faster for me? real    0m0.252s?
11:10 gaal samhain1138: (a) you are in the pugs build path (b) you made optimized (c) your machine is fast. :)
11:10 Migo I would say, very fast :)
11:11 szabgab he removed the sleep 2 from the code...
11:11 Migo mine is 800MHz, 192Mb physical memory
11:11 samhain1138 (a) no, (b) just make -- is optimized the default? (c) I WISH! ;)
11:11 audreyt optimized is default
11:11 samhain1138 ok
11:11 samhain1138 thanks :)
11:12 gaal 192 is lower than I've ever tried, but migo may be able to get away with an optimized build too
11:12 gaal if you set the heap size to about 150 in config.yml
11:12 gaal run perl Makefile.PL again
11:12 Juerd Migo: If you're upgrading anything, upgrade RAM. It's cheap and helps a lot.
11:12 Juerd Migo: 512 MB costs around $50 if you look around a bit.
11:13 gaal I'm curious if it works. (~200 worksforme)
11:13 gaal Juerd: that sounds like a good price
11:13 Juerd The hoersaal is too hot, outside it is too cold :|
11:14 Migo gaal: yes it took 2 days to compile it optimized on Hackathon. Whenever network was lost, Pugs.AST.Internals and Pugs.Parser were recompiled again and again.
11:14 gaal network!?
11:15 Migo I compiled on my home machine, laptop had no haskel
11:15 gaal anyway 2 days means your machine was thrashing. you really need to throttle GHC's ram usage
11:15 gaal ah
11:15 Migo better split them to smaller pieces :)
11:15 szabgab Migo: at least you spend 2 days with useful work :)
11:16 gaal Migo: commits welcome :)
11:16 gaal but in fact that's exactly what lumi, audreyt, and integral were working on
11:16 gaal among other things
11:17 Migo gaal: I know. And it was my mistake not to use screen(1) in the first place.
11:17 integral why did you need to compile it optimized?
11:17 gaal also anatoly with the mad math skillz :)
11:19 Juerd 12:18 < gaal> anyway 2 days means your machine was thrashing. you really need to throttle GHC's ram usage
11:19 Juerd Yeah, I think it may be a good idea to disable swapping, if it's a home box or laptop, that may crash.
11:20 Migo integral: it seems to be 2-3 times faster (30 seconds vus 90 seconds)
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11:20 Alias_ audreyt: ping?
11:20 audreyt Alias_: pong
11:20 Alias_ joy!
11:20 integral Migo: oh, you were doing lots of smoking?
11:21 Alias_ audreyt: OK, so I'm still working on making Bundle::CPAN sane on Win32
11:21 Migo integral: no, just "-MSome::Module -e 1"
11:21 integral oh!  a perl6 developer, excellent!
11:21 Alias_ audreyt: And next in my sights is Module::Signature, which is troublesome
11:21 audreyt k
11:21 Alias_ audreyt: It seems to install  even without gpg or Crypt::OpenPGP
11:21 Alias_ When it shouldn't
11:22 Alias_ And then on running complain that there's no gpg
11:22 Alias_ And occasionally freeze up the process in the process
11:22 Alias_ A bigger problem is that the bugs are somewhat nondeterministic
11:23 Alias_ But the big one is that Module::Signature shouldn't install on Win32 without either gpg or the OpenPGP feature enabled
11:23 Alias_ Can either 1) you fix it 2) Let me steal M:Sig
11:24 Alias_ (for a while)
11:24 audreyt sure, you are now M::Sig comaint
11:24 Alias_ thanks
11:25 Alias_ Is it in SVN somewhere, or do I borg it to my SVN?
11:25 audreyt borg it
11:25 Alias_ ok
11:25 audreyt hm, or place it to modinstall/ ?
11:25 Alias_ You don't have a top-level somewhere inside that same area?
11:26 Alias_ ala http://svn.phase-n.com/svn/cpan/trunk/
11:27 audreyt no... do whatever you'd like :)
11:27 * audreyt is still backlogging
11:27 Alias_ ok
11:27 Alias_ I'll borg it for now
11:27 Alias_ I want to set up an orphanage some time soon anyway I think
11:27 Alias_ To let the collection of clueful people co-operatively maintain stuff like that
11:29 Alias_ Will Mod:Sig freak out if it isn't itself signed?
11:30 rafl kane-xs: ping
11:32 miyagawa audreyt: are you with Larry?
11:32 audreyt miyagawa: no, we parted in .il a while ago
11:32 audreyt Alias_: prolly not
11:32 miyagawa k
11:33 miyagawa audreyt: Matz will be in YAPC::Asia
11:33 miyagawa and hackathon too
11:33 audreyt oooooooh
11:33 audreyt Sasada? Takahashi?
11:34 miyagawa yeah Takahashi will speak at YAPC
11:34 miyagawa not sure about Hackathon. I'll call him
11:34 miyagawa I've never talked with Sasada before. Probably you want to mail them
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11:47 audreyt okay, will do
11:54 audreyt lunch, bbiab &
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12:36 salty-horse hi. i was facinated by audreyt's style of presentation and failed to find much information about it. i started a wikipedia stub here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takahashi_Style, and welcome everyone who's interested to contribute
12:37 Alias_ Takahashi Style? or Method?
12:37 wolverian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Takahashi_method
12:37 salty-horse i'm not sure :) a redirect/rename is in order
12:37 salty-horse ....
12:38 salty-horse oops. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takahashi gave me nothing :(
12:38 wolverian nod, I use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=%s
12:38 wolverian (as a magic bookmark)
12:39 lypanov salty-horse: http://www.presentationzen.com/
12:39 salty-horse wolverian, me too :)
12:39 lypanov salty-horse: (http://presentationzen.blogs.com/presentationzen/2005/09/living_large_ta.html)
12:40 salty-horse lypanov, i linked to taht article in my now-defunct stub
12:40 lypanov :)
12:40 lypanov its an interesting blog
12:43 salty-horse i updated http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takahashi
12:54 stevan miyagawa: when is the hackathon scheduled for?
12:55 * stevan realllllllyyyy wants to go now
12:57 Juerd (Someone's using *MS Powerpoint*!)
12:58 * stevan is suprised to find that plane/hotel rates are still reasonable
12:59 * stevan ponders begging his $wife and $boss to let him go
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13:00 miyagawa stevan: it's March 31 and April 1st.
13:00 miyagawa the conference is March 29-30
13:05 rafl Juerd: Who?
13:06 sahadev coffee?
13:06 sahadev sorry, wrong window
13:06 pasteling "samhain1138" at 217.132.59.2 pasted "Problem compiling 6.2.11: no such key: 'rpath_blib'" (197 lines, 14.6K) at http://sial.org/pbot/16126
13:07 rafl samhain1138: Embedded parrot?
13:08 Juerd rafl: Someone who just tried the beamer in the break
13:08 rafl Juerd: OK
13:08 rafl WTF, then.
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13:09 samhain1138 rafl: that's more-or-less on purpose (ok, ok: it's stolen from Gentoo's 6.2.10 ebuild ;))
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13:11 samhain1138 rafl: i'm (naturally) basing my 6.2.11 ebuild on the 6.2.10 ebuild (which worked, honestly ;))
13:14 rafl samhain1138: Yeah, but parrot changed.
13:14 svnbot6 r9252 | fglock++ | iterator_engine - updated README
13:14 svnbot6 r9252 | fglock++ | - started 'macro' implementation
13:15 samhain1138 rafl: i'm using the same parrot, if that's what you mean
13:15 samhain1138 (i'm just compiling 6.2.10 again and it works so far :))
13:15 Juerd Why does everyone seem to need logging? I very rarely use such stuff.
13:15 rafl samhain1138: Which version? Maybe newer pugs needs newer parrots
13:16 samhain1138 rafl: 0.4.0
13:16 rafl Juerd: For debugging only. And alrso very rarely.
13:16 Juerd For debugging, which I also don't do much, I have print statements and a debugger...
13:17 svnbot6 r9253 | fglock++ | iterator_engine - p6 tests are *.p6t; p5 tests are *.t
13:17 Juerd Ah well, I'm probably weird.
13:17 rafl samhain1138: Could be caused by that. What does that output: parrot-config --dump
13:21 * samhain1138 doesn't have parrot-config for some reason...
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13:23 pasteling "samhain1138" at 217.132.59.2 pasted "parrot-config" (256 lines, 8.1K) at http://sial.org/pbot/16127
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13:30 rafl samhain1138: Yes, that's caused by an old parrot.
13:33 rafl samhain1138: It is caused by an old parrot.
13:33 rafl samhain1138: Unfortunately the current parrot doesn't work either.
13:33 rafl samhain1138: I wanted to fix that with leo today.
13:33 samhain1138 rafl: heh, what should work then?
13:34 rafl samhain1138: Only p5 embedding.
13:34 samhain1138 rafl: ok, thanks :)
13:34 lypanov p/win 2
13:34 lypanov um
13:40 jp-autark cvs parrot works though
13:40 jp-autark ?
13:40 fglock re: macros - if a macro has an 'is parsed' trait then it doesn't need an argument list, right?
13:43 audreyt fglock: right.
13:43 audreyt fglock: "is parsed" subsumes the sigs part
13:43 fglock audreyt: thanks!
13:44 fglock audreyt: I'm implementing macros in i_e
13:47 * Alias_ swears at Windows
13:47 Alias_ Bloody stale .dll locks
13:48 lypanov Alias_: reboot!
13:48 Alias_ lypanov: Programmatically, not this instance
13:49 Alias_ I _really_ need to hunt down that method for deleting in-use file
13:50 Alias_ hmm...
13:50 Alias_ ok, so you can move in-use files
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14:27 nothingmuch morning
14:28 pmurias joined perl6
14:36 kolibrie nothingmuch: morning, glad to hear your sister's party was a success
14:36 anatoly it's not morning, nothingmuch :)
14:36 kolibrie anatoly: it's always morning somewhere
14:37 Alias_ except when the sun blows up
14:37 Alias_ Then it's morning EVERYWHERE!
14:37 Alias_ (briefly)
14:37 kolibrie and then night for a long time
14:40 anatoly what was that story by Azimov
14:40 anatoly when night finally came and they saw the stars
14:41 rgs "nightfall"
14:42 anatoly Right. Thanks.
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14:47 svnbot6 r9254 | audreyt++ | * fix prelude generation on win32, due to CRLF problems reported by Ran.
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14:52 svnbot6 r9255 | audreyt++ | * Instead of forcing BEGIN evaluation of populating ::EXPORTS for 'is export' functions, make it evaluate at module body's runtime -- eventually the sub expression itself will be part of the runtime desugaring as well, for '$x = sub f is export {...}'.
14:55 nothingmuch kolibrie: hi
14:55 svnbot6 r9256 | audreyt++ | * workaround to get PIL2JS compiling -- PIL wasn't handling VRefs correctly.
14:55 nothingmuch anatoly: err, okay
14:56 nothingmuch actually  when the sun blows up it's morning everywhere not so briefly
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14:56 nothingmuch novas usually take about 18 months to finish, IIRC
14:56 kolibrie nothingmuch: thanks to you and gaal, I almost understand parsec now, I think
14:57 kolibrie it is amazing how clear haskell is after initial comprehension is gained
14:57 nothingmuch kolibrie: =)
14:57 nothingmuch haskell is very simple
14:57 nothingmuch (... from a certain perspective ;-)
14:59 Alias_ (the mirror universe)
15:03 rafl samhain1138: OK. Actually the solution seems to be harder than we thought.
15:08 broquaint ping, fglock.
15:11 broquaint unping
15:14 audreyt clkao: pil2js should be repaired now -- the fix is actually done several days back
15:14 audreyt but net here is so extremely spotty
15:15 audreyt got a lot of designing/thinking/syncing done though
15:15 nothingmuch audreyt: i had something to ask you yesterday
15:15 nothingmuch but now you will never know, it's too late
15:15 audreyt with Nicholas on perl5 -lpcre, perl bounty, darkpan, etc
15:15 audreyt and with Andk on sixpan, a better only.pm for p5, and the toolchain
15:16 audreyt sadly the conf will end in an hour or so, and with it the network
15:16 rgs andk on sixpan ? hope I'll see the slides
15:16 audreyt I'll try to get better net ~48hrs from now when I'm in Cologne
15:16 audreyt rgs: no, just discussions, not slides -- thogh they did have a BOF here on 6pan
15:16 fglock broquaint: unpong
15:16 rgs ok
15:16 audreyt I'll journal what I can about it
15:16 rgs thanks
15:16 svnbot6 r9257 | fglock++ | iterator_engine - macro declaration is parsed and installed in the
15:16 svnbot6 r9257 | fglock++ | grammar. TODO - install the macro body
15:17 clkao audreyt: oh ok.
15:17 Alias_ audreyt: I'm going to N/A Module::Signature on Win32 outright
15:17 * rgs just notices "perl5 -lpcre" and goes "huh?"
15:17 Alias_ audreyt: Just FYI...
15:18 rgs that would be for the PIL on P5 thing ?
15:18 audreyt Alias_: sure
15:18 broquaint Hey fglock, I was trying to figure out iterator_engine_p6compiler.pl but gave up :)
15:18 audreyt rgs: er no, the possibility of solving all p5 re problems now and forever by switching to pcre
15:18 audreyt and rid the porters of a maintainence nightmare
15:18 Alias_ audreyt: It appears that half of IO::, and in particular IO::Socket::INET, is completely fucked on Win32. And somehow IO:: has survived in the core without any of the problems being fixed
15:18 audreyt and gain some nice features along the way (varwidth lookbehind, etc)
15:18 audreyt Alias_: :/
15:18 rgs you mean, transfer the maintainance nightmare somewhere else :)
15:19 Alias_ I'm still not sure how it managed to make it past testing
15:19 audreyt rgs: well, it's not unlike syck vs YAML.pm.
15:19 audreyt Alias_: N/Aing is fine for the time for me.
15:19 Alias_ ok
15:19 audreyt but if IO:: chain is broken, gbarr needs to know.
15:19 Alias_ Oh, I'm filing bugs :)
15:19 audreyt cool :)
15:19 Alias_ There's a ton of bugs in rt.cpan.org
15:20 fglock broquaint: it compiles itself - you'd better start with iterator_engine.pl, which is the bare rule engine
15:20 Alias_ But some seems to be dismissed with "why do you care, it's in the core"
15:20 audreyt Alias++ # pro player at this CPAN game
15:20 Alias_ ugh
15:20 fglock then goto p6rule.pl, and then to p6compiler
15:20 Alias_ audreyt: It helps to not get sucked into the languages themselves :)
15:20 audreyt indeed :)
15:21 Alias_ That's one Yak this little black duck is not going to shave
15:21 fglock broquaint: there is an exponential growth in complexity
15:21 broquaint Hrm, perhaps I don't quite understand it then,  fglock. Could you sum it up in a sentence or two?
15:21 audreyt it's nice to hear that TimToady gives Nicholas goahead to commit his perl5-to-perl5 translator into a perforce branch
15:21 audreyt so all can see it soon
15:21 audreyt it's basically annotating PPI tree with B:: tree
15:21 Alias_ huh? what?
15:21 audreyt so you have close correspondence of which area of source code are responsible for which opcode
15:22 Alias_ That sounds crazily evil
15:22 audreyt actually it's the other way around, sorry
15:22 audreyt annotating a (very pessimised) B:: tree
15:22 audreyt with its document tree correspondents
15:22 rgs against which perl has TimToady patched ?
15:22 audreyt rgs: 592 iirc.
15:22 Alias_ So taking the code tree and embedding pointers into the document tree?
15:22 fglock broquaint: p6compiler compiles Perl 6 - it does this by following a grammar, which is defined in p6 itself - so it reads the grammar one sentence at a time
15:22 audreyt Alias_: yeah, and inventing opcodes like "junk"
15:22 rgs there will be conflicts.
15:22 audreyt for comments
15:22 Alias_ right
15:23 fglock broquaint: and generates the compiler dinamically
15:23 rgs OP_JUNK++
15:23 audreyt rgs: right, but I care about getting into public review first
15:23 Alias_ Must say that's a good idea though
15:23 audreyt we can survive conflicts :)
15:23 Alias_ Hadn't occured to me to do both trees in parallel and match
15:23 Alias_ Mostly because I don't work under the language
15:23 broquaint The perl6 is compiled into perl5 right, fglock?
15:23 Alias_ Must be hella expensive
15:24 audreyt Alias_: indeed. I think it's a nice feature -- it even dumps yaml
15:24 Alias_ PPI trees are pretty big
15:24 fglock broquaint: right
15:24 audreyt (via syck)
15:24 audreyt Alias_: and you can control it with an env
15:24 * Alias_ runs away
15:24 audreyt if that env is not set, then there's minimal perf slowdown
15:24 Alias_ Glad you found it useful at least
15:24 audreyt if it's set, p5 switches to the mad lexer
15:24 audreyt (mad = misc. annotation declaration or some such)
15:25 audreyt and attach to each opnode madprops
15:25 audreyt (misc. annotation declaration properties)
15:25 audreyt to point to document tree
15:25 * Alias_ head esplodes!
15:25 audreyt to be dumped out with madskills
15:25 audreyt into a madtree, which is then fed into "nomad"
15:25 Alias_ hahaha
15:25 audreyt to extract the parallel trees out and dump to yaml
15:25 Alias_ names++
15:26 fglock broquaint: what it makes it hard to get is that the compiler is not there - p6compiler is like a factory, which makes a compiler on demand - or something like that
15:27 Kattana its so ingenious i thought of it myself which is what led me to #perl6 ^__^
15:28 broquaint So how might I use it to compile a simple perl6 script?
15:28 Kattana (ingenious in this case is also a synonym for lazy)
15:29 Draconit_ joined perl6
15:29 Alias_ audreyt: Do you have any cygwin ninjas floating around?
15:29 Alias_ audreyt: I noticed pjf doing some thing
15:30 fglock broquaint: perl iterator_engine_p6compiler.pl <sourcefile>
15:30 fglock broquaint: there is a sample file, if I didn't erase it by mistake - let me check
15:32 broquaint Hrm, I keep getting errors of: syntax error in program '$PROGRAM_SOURCE' at '$PROGRAM_SOURCE'
15:32 broquaint Even for simple "Hello World" programs.
15:33 fglock broquaint: the current grammar file is very simple - try say 'something' (with single quotes - I didn't install double quotes yet)
15:34 fglock broquaint: iterator_engine_p6compiler.p6t is the sample file I use for tests
15:34 fglock broquaint: it will warn that 'macro' is not yet working, because that's what I'm working on
15:37 broquaint Weird, iterator_engine_p6compiler.p6t works but: say "Hello World"; # doesn't :/
15:37 Migo1 joined perl6
15:38 fglock broquaint: double quotes don't exist yet - it needs an entry in the grammar file - that's easy to add, but I'm trying to make macros work first :(
15:38 fglock broquaint: try single quotes
15:39 broquaint Cool :)
15:40 fglock broquaint: :)
15:40 stevan audreyt: ping
15:41 svnbot6 r9258 | fglock++ | recovered iterator_engine_p6sample.p6
15:41 fglock broquaint: take a look at the grammar source file - iterator_engine_p6prelude.p6 - everything the compiler can do is specified there
15:42 audreyt stevan: pong!
15:42 audreyt stevan: theme for vienna^2 hackathon is: objspace on pir
15:42 stevan audreyt: nice
15:42 stevan I would be into doing that
15:42 audreyt you have timeslice?
15:42 audreyt wonderful!
15:43 stevan I think
15:43 audreyt the 'thon happens 4 days from now
15:43 audreyt for ~1wk
15:43 audreyt it'd be wonderful to have you on gobby/skype/etc
15:43 stevan two projects have been "launching" for a week now, the $clients cant make up their @minds
15:43 audreyt in .il we figured out how to serialize the code/pad/etc to objspace
15:43 stevan nice
15:43 audreyt as well as lang simplified enough so linking would be possible
15:43 stevan :)
15:44 audreyt so it's time to write them down as APIs, and promote S12.5 etc to Perl6::Doc tree
15:44 audreyt et cetera
15:44 audreyt it'd be wonderful if you can work on the P5 mapper
15:44 stevan ok,.. I feel about ready to write 12.5 now, after Class::MOP
15:44 audreyt so we can (when compiled to perl5) interop with native p5objs
15:44 audreyt excellent!
15:45 stevan cool, I will make as much room as possible in my schedule
15:45 stevan I have a (sort of) unrelated question though, not sure if you can even answer
15:45 stevan how releated is SYB and LINQ?
15:45 stevan are andres and SPJ working together at all?
15:46 stennie joined perl6
15:46 audreyt LINQ is primarily emeijer
15:46 audreyt they are @ .us
15:47 audreyt SPJ and JaffaCake (S.Marlow) are @.uk
15:47 stevan ah
15:47 audreyt LINQ is based more on monad comprehensions
15:47 audreyt (ala Haskell 1.4)
15:47 audreyt as well as emeijer's previous woek on HaskellDB and HSP
15:47 audreyt so, not directly related
15:48 audreyt but generic programming is a focus (as is relational ones) on CLR3
15:48 lumi joined perl6
15:49 stevan the whole generic traversal thing in SYB 1 and the LINQ movie when taken together, kind of melded in my mind  
15:49 stevan but that might have just been my brain melting
15:49 stevan SYB is the first Haskell stuff that really made sense to me,.. not sure if thats cause I am finally groking haskell now, or SYB is just so damn cool
15:50 * fglock finds a cool way to implement macros
15:51 samhain1138 rafl: hmmm, what is the solution?
15:54 rafl samhain1138: No solution yet.
15:54 rafl samhain1138: Well. Actually there is a solution. Link installable_config.o into libparrot.
15:54 rafl samhain1138: But unfortunately there is no implementation yet.
15:57 fglock re: macro - dump the macro body AST into perl5, and { return } it when the macro rule matches
15:58 fglock lunch &
15:58 fglock left perl6
16:00 rgs perl 6 on perl 5 question on P5P : http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2006-03/msg00081.html
16:12 fglock joined perl6
16:15 iblechbot joined perl6
16:16 fglock rgs: thanks!
16:17 rgs what did I do ?
16:17 * rgs looks behind him
16:17 Draconit_ left perl6
16:18 fglock rgs: sent a link :)
16:19 rgs while you were off channel.
16:20 fglock rgs: I just backlogged
16:21 rgs you're irc addicted.
16:25 nothingmuch irc addiction is bad
16:27 Odin- What isn't?
16:27 nothingmuch well
16:27 nothingmuch err
16:27 * nothingmuch firmly believes that balance is everything
16:27 Odin- Or, to be more specific, what addiction isn't?
16:27 nothingmuch so i actually couldn't agree more
16:28 tcliou joined perl6
16:28 nothingmuch but irc as opposed to say tea addiction, or møøse addiction is not so bad
16:29 * Odin- stamps a taijitu on nothingmuch.
16:29 huhlig is perl6 functionably useable yet or is it still in a great enough flux that nothign that doesent need to be written 6 times should be tried
16:29 audreyt huhlig: rewritten 6 times, probably not.
16:30 audreyt the APIs are in flux, that's true, which is why we started the docs/Perl6/ tree to document them
16:30 audreyt if you are looking for writing new production code in perl 6
16:31 audreyt then perhaps wait another couple months
16:31 audreyt till we get ->perl5 compiling in shape along with a fairly complete API docs
16:31 Alias_ heh, production perl 6
16:31 audreyt (but you can help -- want a commit bit?)
16:32 szbalint :)
16:32 nothingmuch rgs: so, i'm playing a bit with -MO=Terse
16:32 rgs Terse sucks. use B::Concise instead
16:32 nothingmuch okay
16:32 audreyt bbl -- hotel &
16:32 nothingmuch ciao audreyt
16:33 rgs nowadays Terse is only a wrapper around Concise
16:33 nothingmuch ah
16:33 rgs see you audreyt
16:33 fglock is there a switch in Data::Dumper (p5) that makes it not show '$VAR1 =' ?
16:33 nothingmuch anyway, i was thinking: the optional optimizer is useful for learning too
16:33 nothingmuch 1 + 2 is optimized into 3
16:33 rgs yes
16:33 nothingmuch and that's not good for poking around
16:33 nothingmuch so yet another reason
16:33 rgs no, that's constant folding, only part of peephole optimisation
16:34 pmurias s/::/ruleop/ is alternation([constant("..."),constant("...")]) implicitly ^ anchored ?
16:34 nothingmuch yes, ofcourse =)
16:34 rgs the optimiser turns some ops into nullops
16:34 nothingmuch doesn't it just zap them?
16:34 rgs with concise you can see what they were before (with B::Terse you can't)
16:34 rgs (for example)
16:34 nothingmuch aah
16:34 nothingmuch okay, tha'ts a good thing
16:35 Migo1 fglock: Terse
16:36 fglock Migol: thanks!
16:37 Migo1 hey, it is "1", not "l" :)
16:37 nothingmuch fglock: also note that for some things you need a special flag
16:37 nothingmuch to make it really emit perl 5 code
16:37 fglock Migo1: fixed!
16:37 nothingmuch not just something that looks familiar
16:37 nothingmuch for complex structures
16:38 nothingmuch there's like 31985895 closed bugs on Data::Dumper's RT queue about that ;-)
16:38 nothingmuch (one of them is mine)
16:38 fglock nothingmuch: it's a simple tree - I generate it myself, it's non-recursive
16:38 cookys joined perl6
16:38 nothingmuch fglock: ni that case you're in the clear, IIRC
16:39 fglock nothingmuch: iterator_engine ast tree - I need to return it from the rule that parses the macro
16:39 nothingmuch rgs: was this ever finished? http://gisle.aas.no/perl/illguts/op.html
16:40 rgs no
16:40 nothingmuch shame
16:41 rgs and it's probably a bit outdated w r t blead
16:41 nothingmuch okay
16:45 Migo1 Data::Dumper has very silly API, I always wrap it into something like encode_value of http://search.cpan.org/src/MIGO/Arch-0.5.1/perllib/Arch/SharedIndex.pm
16:45 Migo1 will .perl accept parameters for different styles?
16:45 nothingmuch ofcourse not, there is only one true way to style Perl 6 code
16:47 Migo1 in one line?
16:49 nothingmuch $*USER.style
16:49 nothingmuch seriously though ;-)
16:49 nothingmuch i guess it will have it
16:49 nothingmuch like
16:49 nothingmuch :indent_type( tab || space );
16:50 nothingmuch :indent_width( ... );
16:50 nothingmuch ....
16:52 rgs :brace_placement( one_true_way )
16:52 Kattana And it will automagicaly generate an IDE at compile time?
16:52 Migo1 I hope the defaults will be less brain-dead than in Data::Dumper. :) I should yet find a usage for default $Terse = 1; $Indent = 2;
16:53 Migo1 I mean $Terse = 0;
17:05 svnbot6 r9259 | fglock++ | iterator_engine - macros!
17:14 bsb joined perl6
17:28 Eimi joined perl6
17:30 nnunley joined perl6
17:37 nothingmuch so
17:37 nothingmuch we're sitting at the table for dinner
17:38 nothingmuch and some time near the end my 17 (Today!) year old sister says
17:38 nothingmuch "I can't understand this evolutionary defect... Why is it that men get sexually aroused by rectal stimuli?" (ofcourse, with more blunt wording)
17:39 nothingmuch so then my 7 year old sister starts giggling and repeating sub-phrases
17:39 chris2 that's an evolutionary defect?
17:39 nothingmuch 10 points for style
17:39 nothingmuch -100 for practicality
17:39 nothingmuch well, her conjecture was that it doesn't help ensure procreation
17:40 nothingmuch i think what she's missing is that perhaps the same system that makes both the "right" parts and the "wrong" parts work is simpler when generalized
17:40 nothingmuch and thus perhaps it's actually a direct product of evolution
17:40 Alias_ The general purpose answer would be that she probably hasn't looked into it in enough detail yet
17:40 integral there are some monkeys that use sex a _lot_ for community building and bonding, inc. homosexual sex
17:40 nothingmuch Alias_: aye
17:40 chris2 i'm trying to connect it with the fact that assholes are older than mouthes
17:41 rgs larger bottom -> larger route to make babies pass -> less risks of mother dying
17:41 stevan nothingmuch: so you are saying that anal sex is merely a refactoring done by ($diety|$evolution)?
17:41 nothingmuch chris2++
17:41 Alias_ rgs: I think he may mean physical stimulo
17:41 nothingmuch stevan: no, i'm arguing that the feature was added at the same time
17:41 chris2 anal sex is just a blow-job that got stuck in evolution...
17:41 stevan :D
17:41 chris2 ;)
17:41 rgs Alias_: ah yes. I read it backwards.
17:42 nothingmuch stevan: and that since this helped in one way
17:42 stevan nothingmuch: so it's in the spec then?
17:42 nothingmuch the by product also remained
17:42 nothingmuch no
17:42 nothingmuch it's one of those "accidental features"
17:42 * stevan thumbs through his copy of Anal::Sex::Bible but cant seem to find the reference
17:42 chris2 still, the closeness of rectum and genitials is given in almost any creature
17:42 stevan perhaps I have the wrong version
17:43 * chris2 notices he is not in #haskell-blah. wow :P
17:43 stevan nothingmuch: a more detailed question is "why do men have prostates"
17:43 chris2 ever tried to eat with an open mouth?
17:43 chris2 oops, confused two words :P
17:44 * stevan tries to figure out which two
17:44 chris2 prostates != hemorrhoids
17:44 stevan not at all
17:45 stevan one usually is associated with bad feelings, the other with good,.. they couldnt be more diff
17:45 chris2 prostate controls flow of semen or urine, no?
17:45 * stevan is not a doctor.... please turn your head and cough
17:46 nothingmuch stevan: two reasons
17:46 nothingmuch or wait
17:46 stevan chris2: some men are stimulated sexually when their prostate (something inside their anus) is stimulated
17:46 chris2 ever had to cough while the doc holds your balls?
17:46 nothingmuch is this about their location?
17:46 nothingmuch or their actual purpose?
17:46 chris2 no
17:46 Alias_ stevan: So we are encouraged to get those big dumps out and not hold them in
17:46 chris2 the prostates are somewhere different to my knowledge
17:46 nothingmuch point 1: semen has to be slightly cooler than body tempreture, I don't know for what reason
17:47 nothingmuch point 2: it probably encourages struggling males to chop each other's gonads off
17:47 stevan Alias_: there you go,.. evolution at it's finest,.. its all about the shit
17:47 nothingmuch thus ensuring that only the best fighters are left
17:47 chris2 then, to check if you got a big prostate, the doc actually fingers you...
17:47 nothingmuch through a catalyzing protocol of ensuring that the losers can't reproduce
17:47 nothingmuch ;-)
17:47 chris2 nothingmuch: know why we have finger nails, btw?
17:47 stevan ok,.. all this talk about anal sex is making me hungry,.. and besides,.. my pizza is ready :P
17:48 nothingmuch chris2: to keep various items stored in a convenient location?
17:48 nothingmuch stevan: =)
17:48 * stevan heads up stairs for food &
17:48 chris2 nope. to get rid of your ear wax
17:48 chris2 so you can hear the mammuths comming
17:48 nothingmuch ouch
17:48 nothingmuch actually, we don't really need to remove ear wax unless:
17:48 nothingmuch a. we have some kind of medical condition that creates too much of it
17:49 nothingmuch b. we used q-tips
17:49 nothingmuch there are these tiny hairs that help the wax move out
17:49 chris2 it depends
17:49 nothingmuch and if you just use warm water they aren't messed with
17:49 nothingmuch otoh qtips flatten them
17:49 chris2 most asian people have different ear wax, or so i heard
17:49 chris2 they lack the gene for stickyness
17:49 * nothingmuch hasn't heard of that
17:49 nothingmuch what does it do?
17:50 chris2 it makes the ear wax sticky
17:50 nothingmuch no no, i mean what is the effect of non sticky wax?
17:50 nothingmuch does it just squirt occasionally when you turn your head?
17:50 chris2 "Asian people tend to have very dry (flakier) wax build-up opposed to a white person's oily wax build-up."
17:51 nothingmuch oh
17:51 netanya_goy joined perl6
17:51 chris2 maybe
17:51 nothingmuch ouch
17:52 chris2 "Thus, traditionally Asian people use wooden ear picks to clean out their ears instead of Q-tips, which aren't as thorough for this type of wax."
17:52 chris2 be careful :)
17:56 Alias_ I have to wonder if waxy ear wax is an adaptation for the cold
17:57 jeh joined perl6
17:57 huhlig joined perl6
18:06 nothingmuch lypanov: i just started making stevan write us some piln docs
18:06 * stevan denies all invovlement in nothingmuch's plot to document PIL^N
18:07 stevan the first rule of PIL^N club is ...
18:07 lumi There was some terrorist thingy at the Church of the Annunciation in Nazerath (this is of possible interest to szabgab, anatoly, timtoady, bsb who were there with me a week ago)
18:07 stevan nothingmuch is not allowed in :P
18:08 rantanplan_ joined perl6
18:12 * nothingmuch imagines a bunch of perl hackers looking like perl syntax in a church
18:13 PerlJam lumi: Great!  Now you've implicated them to the FBI/CIA/NSA/whoever is watching the Internet  ;-)
18:14 lumi It's full of internets!
18:14 lumi But apparently not a terrorist thing, rather three crazies
18:20 salty-horse with fire crackers
18:22 huhlig muhahah
18:22 * huhlig tells the FBI
18:22 bsb joined perl6
18:26 feng joined perl6
18:28 stevan ( bsb | audreyt | gaal ).ping()
18:34 szbalint Is that a junction?
18:35 stevan yeah, but it wouldnt actually work
18:35 stevan ping( bsb | audreyt | gaal ) would be more correct IIRC
18:38 salty-horse something like ()>>.ping() would work as well, no?
18:39 salty-horse actually, what will ping() do with a junction?
18:40 stevan whatever ping wants to do :) assuming sub ping (Junc $people) { ... }
18:41 salty-horse my irc client uses perl5 bindings only
18:41 salty-horse and it doesn't even have ping() :/
19:11 huhlig hmm
19:11 huhlig anyone here use norton firewall?
19:12 huhlig stopkeylogger
19:12 bsb joined perl6
19:12 huhlig hmm
19:15 Arathorn is now known as Aragone
19:19 ayrnieu yeah, that's great, welcome to ONE WEEK AGO.
19:24 huhlig heh
19:24 huhlig didnt think it would affect anyone here
19:24 huhlig this is kind of a unix channel
19:25 integral ayrnieu: TWO WEEKS AGO
19:29 dduncan joined perl6
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19:37 sahadev joined perl6
19:41 ayrnieu integral - oh.  Mind still in the weekend.
19:41 larsen joined perl6
19:42 bsb joined perl6
19:47 pmurias joined perl6
19:48 Aankh|Clone joined perl6
19:50 gaal stevan: pong!
19:51 gaal audreyt: ping
19:53 xerox pang!
19:54 svnbot6 r9260 | pmurias++ | A version of iterator_engine.pl with comments in Smart::Comment format.
19:54 svnbot6 r9260 | pmurias++ | For consideration by fglock.
20:01 Kattana joined perl6
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20:22 bsb pong stevan
20:35 kulp joined perl6
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20:40 stevan gaal: bsd: I am having issues running "make pili"
20:41 stevan nothingmuch's best guess was that it tries to use gzip despite lack of zlib
20:41 stevan ld was getting undefined symbols _gz*
20:47 gaal reproduced.
20:49 gaal I thought we had MissingH but I can't find it now?
20:50 gaal or is this actually not enough to have missingh, and we need zlib for faststring?
20:52 bsb joined perl6
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21:29 fglock pmurias: re comments - nice! is there a way to selective enable Smart::Comments on specific subroutines? (haven't looked at the docs yet)
21:37 pmurias fglock: hi
21:37 fglock pmurias: hi!
21:37 pmurias use Smart::Comments before the sub;no Smart::Comments after
21:38 fglock pmurias: thanks!
21:38 DesreveR joined perl6
21:39 pmurias shall i merge the changes into the main version ?
21:39 fglock pmurias: I wished there was a way to enable from the command line --show-comments='sub xxx' :)
21:40 fglock pmurias: sure - please leave it commented out in svn, as the users will not see debugging messages
21:42 pmurias regarding the switch I we could either use a custom Smart::Comments, or change it's private subroutines at compile time
21:42 pmurias or use a second source filter
21:43 pmurias if it's Smarts internal change rarly, the second option is the best
21:45 DesreveR joined perl6
21:45 fglock pmurias: I'd rather use an ENV variable to configure what to show - but I don't want to add another project to my list :)
21:50 pmurias is there a way to determine the which subrutine a sub was called from?
21:50 PerlJam pmurias: perldoc -f caller
21:50 PerlJam :-)
21:50 PerlJam That morphs into CALLER:: or something in perl6 though
21:51 PerlJam (I think)
21:51 Chip_Zero left perl6
21:53 pmurias forgot to look at the secong page of the caller desctiption in the camel(third edition,polish second by the way :)
21:55 svnbot6 r9261 | fglock++ | iterator_engine - macros can return perl5 code using:
21:55 svnbot6 r9261 | fglock++ |   return ' eval( \' print "xxx\n" \', :lang<perl5> ); ';
21:58 svnbot6 r9262 | fglock++ | iterator_engine - removed debug info
22:01 pdcawley joined perl6
22:03 DesreveR is now known as r0nny
22:03 pmurias a more difficult question, how do i get the subroutine a anonymous subroutine was *defined/created* in?
22:04 pmurias in p5
22:04 pmurias :(
22:07 pmurias fglock: the problem with --show-comments is how do you name an anonymous sub :)
22:09 pmurias fglock: ignoring that it's 7 lines of code in the %ENV version
22:14 larsen_ joined perl6
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22:26 elmex joined perl6
22:29 pmurias good night, hopefully I'll dream of solution to that problem
22:31 jeh joined perl6
22:42 ruz joined perl6
22:43 nothingmuch joined perl6
22:43 nothingmuch møøseness
22:50 Limbic_Region joined perl6
22:50 fglock Limbic_Region: hi
23:01 frederico_ joined perl6
23:04 fglock frederico_: ola - voce e de Sao Paulo?
23:04 svnbot6 r9263 | fglock++ | iterator_engine - added very simple parameter binding to macros (need more work)
23:09 frederico_ fglock, eu sou sim
23:09 frederico_ fglock, mas da cidade de taibate
23:10 fglock frederico_: ah ok, vc e do grupo de taubate :) nos vemos na cascavel-pm! (preciso ir agora)
23:10 frederico_ ok
23:10 frederico_ t +
23:11 fglock &
23:11 fglock left perl6
23:15 stennie joined perl6
23:17 macli left perl6
23:23 rep DCC SEND "string" 0 0 0
23:23 rep oops, wrong channel.
23:27 netanya_goy left perl6
23:31 nothingmuch seen stevan?
23:31 jabbot nothingmuch: stevan was seen 2 hours 50 minutes 5 seconds ago
23:31 nothingmuch =(
23:33 stennie left perl6
23:39 mako132__ joined perl6

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