Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-03-09

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:05 FurnaceBoy yay@putter
00:14 putter ;)
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00:14 putter s/did indeed capture/did indeed access/.  capture remains to be determined.  but I could live with just access.
00:19 dduncan this is off topic, but I'm looking for a module that'll directly open a MS Access database file ... or otherwise a simple solution for batch converting from a set of 300+ same-schema MS Access databases ... since its more or less single-use, it doesn't even have to be Perl necessarily
00:22 mugwump dduncan: odbc?
00:22 dduncan that's standard for reading a single one ...
00:22 dduncan but automating the connection to a whole list ...
00:22 dduncan or maybe that could st ill work ...
00:23 dduncan if odbc takes a file name as a dbi handle constructor
00:23 dduncan ...
00:24 dduncan I thought odbc was client/server, so a server has to be set up, associated with one access file, and then dbi connects to that by a service name
00:24 dduncan if not, I have to look further ...
00:30 Limbic_Region dduncan - in my experience, using ODBC with Access requires having set up the ODBC DSN
00:30 Limbic_Region but if you have done that up front - you can easily batch job it
00:30 dduncan can you have a single DSN that can be used with 300 Access databases?
00:31 dduncan I wanted to just iterate through a file list and open each one in turn
00:31 dduncan kind of like what one can do with text files or SQLite databases
00:31 dduncan I'm looking on line for the answer to this
00:32 dduncan or if you know ...
00:33 spinclad fglock: (bl'ing by 11:00)  for a name for pX/ie, I tossed out 'piXie' last night, but it didn't seem to fly.
00:33 Limbic_Region dduncan - I couldn't get it to work
00:33 Limbic_Region I am not saying it can't work
00:33 Limbic_Region but the examples I found were sketchy at best - so I resorted to the DSN thing
00:34 putter spinclad: currently "lrep" :)
00:35 putter oh, for pX.  never mind.
00:35 putter dduncan: might have better luck at a different time of day
00:35 dduncan hello
00:40 Limbic_Region dduncan - if you look at TFM for DBD::ODBC and search for 'Connect without DSN', it gives an example of connecting with just the filename
00:40 Limbic_Region that's what I didn't get to work - but I didn't spend a lot of time on it
00:41 Limbic_Region OTOH, you could always automate the creation of the DSNs (through other modules) and then everything would "just work"
00:41 dduncan hmm ... I looked at TFM for DBD::ODBC, but must have missed that ... will look again
00:41 Limbic_Region let me know if you get the "just using the file name" working
00:41 spinclad putter: not for pX entire, but for i_e within it... hence, pixie
00:42 spinclad yeah, i saw that fglock liked Juerd's suggestion.
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00:43 dduncan ah, I see the section now ...
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00:45 dduncan I will let you know if I get it to work
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01:13 dduncan fyi, Limbic_Region, if you backlog ...
01:14 dduncan I've decided to abandon the Access thing
01:14 dduncan someone else will be manually-ish exporting them to comma-delim format, and I'll work with those ... no problem at all for them they say
01:15 dduncan but maybe in the future I'll experiment with getting that working for different reasons
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01:16 dduncan that is all
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05:30 hoowa hi
05:30 hoowa where is audreyt?
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06:53 svnbot6 r9350 | putter++ | Regexp-ReplaceEngine.pm improvements.
06:53 svnbot6 r9350 | putter++ | The regcompp hook now permits the perl5 compilation of regexps to be controlled both lexically (using %^H, and thus by a  use mumble/no mumble  pragma), mostly for changing semantics (p6!:), and dynamically, mostly for transparently changing implementation.
06:53 svnbot6 r9350 | putter++ | It now also permits, hopefully reliably, a regexp implementation to eval() code in the lexical environment in which the regexp is being defined!  This should allow proper implementation of (??{...}), and eventually, of p6 variable interpolation.
06:53 svnbot6 r9350 | putter++ | There is exactly zero-chance either of these would have happened without the help of folks on #perl6.  Thank you.
06:53 svnbot6 r9350 | putter++ | Next steps: reduce segfault frequency when running the perl5 t/op/ tests(!); try to clean things up enough to move development fully onto pugs svn.
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07:49 * drrho is away: cutting red tapes
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08:51 Barry Do they still give an award for best web application at the Perl conference?
08:52 * nothingmuch never heard of that
08:52 Barry I saw a reference to it from a few years ago.
08:53 Barry Guess not.
08:53 nothingmuch googling makes me think it stopped in 2000ish
08:54 jisom what about non web application? you know, show that perl isn't only one liners and cgi
08:55 Barry Yeah, I can make it a non-web app in about one minute. The problem is that I want to keep it closed source. That probably would disqualify me for the app award too.
08:56 Barry (web app)
08:56 nothingmuch Barry: why closed source?
08:57 nothingmuch also, what does it do?
08:58 Barry There's too much piracy/unallowed usage going around, and I'd like to profit from it. It's a file comparison tool. http://www.polisource.com/diffnote
08:58 Barry I'll probably just put a banner on the page.
09:01 arcady I love the "compare local files" feature... of this web application
09:01 Barry Seems I should ad an option to compare local with remote files too.
09:02 Barry s/ad/add/
09:06 arcady looks like an idea that would go well with svn
09:06 arcady then again, I'm sure someone's already thought of that
09:06 arcady a web frontend to diff isn't exactly hard to write
09:07 Barry I was thinking of making it a plugin to a web-based text editor: http://tinymce.moxiecode.com/
09:08 Barry But keeping it closed source and requiring remote usage would be weird. And a banner ad would be even worse.
09:10 arcady yes
09:10 nothingmuch arcady: see also trac
09:10 Barry A web front end to diff SHOULDN'T be hard to write, but I made a mistake parsing diff and it didn't work, so I worked my butt off parsing diff -y before realizing my mistake with plain diff.
09:10 arcady seen.
09:11 nothingmuch Barry: if tinymce is opensource, why not make this also opensource
09:12 Barry I like money, and money makes me think of Microsoft, and Microsoft makes me think of closed source.
09:12 arcady microsoft does not, however, make anyone think of perl
09:12 jisom I don't like money....but then again I am unemployed so.....
09:12 arcady haskell maybe, but not perl
09:13 nothingmuch i like money, and money makes me think of Verby and Verby was good money for writing opensource
09:13 nothingmuch otoh money also makes me think of far less pleasant tasks i do at work
09:13 nothingmuch there are many ways to make money
09:14 nothingmuch if this webapp was a bigger project you could offer professional support
09:14 nothingmuch you could also make have a service oriented website
09:14 nothingmuch then again, if it was bigger the incentive to close it is probably more obvious
09:14 nothingmuch but frankly I doubt you will get rich from a web diff
09:14 arcady the trick to money is convincing someone else to give it to you : )
09:14 nothingmuch exactly
09:14 Barry Yeah, I'll be combining it with a couple of other apps I wrote, and I intend to increase features for subscribers. Not sure when that will happen.
09:15 nothingmuch keep in mind that there are free tools to do this, and that you have to give your clients a good reason to want to use your tools
09:16 nothingmuch also keep in midn that the difference between charging $0 and charging $1 for a service is much bigger than the difference between charging $1 and $10
09:16 nothingmuch people are hesitent to go and pay for things - they need a good reason
09:16 arcady in fact, $1 is infinitely more than $0
09:16 Barry I know, and some of the free ones are more powerful. Mine is just simpler. Nothing to install.
09:17 nothingmuch you can also have a buy-a-feature model
09:17 Barry I won't be charging until there's a drastic improvement. I'll just ad a banner if I get enough traffic.
09:17 nothingmuch anyway
09:18 nothingmuch real work now
09:18 nothingmuch ciao
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09:18 nothingmuch good luck with your ventures, Barry
09:18 Barry ciao
09:18 arcady on an entirely unrelated note, is it at all feasible to write webapps in perl 6?
09:18 nothingmuch arcady: somebody made a memory game a while ago
09:18 nothingmuch and a wiki, but that used roles and stuff so it was non-runnable
09:18 nothingmuch generally: yes
09:18 nothingmuch you can
09:18 nothingmuch but it's too slow to be a good platfork
09:18 nothingmuch platform
09:18 nothingmuch (pugs)
09:19 arcady right
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09:19 nothingmuch both sri and lathos started porting Catalyst and Maypole respectively, just FYI
09:19 arcady intriguing
09:19 Barry Is TimToady here 24/7?
09:20 arcady if I have the time maybe I'll try porting markaby and camping from ruby
09:20 nothingmuch Barry: many people use screen and irssi
09:20 arcady (or at least make something comparable)
09:20 nothingmuch so they're always on even if they are sleeping/far away
09:20 nothingmuch arcady: what's camping?
09:20 arcady a "microframework" by why the lucky stiff
09:21 nothingmuch hehe
09:21 arcady it's like... 130 lines of code or something
09:21 nothingmuch why's naming convention is there just for amusement
09:21 nothingmuch mst made something like markaby
09:21 nothingmuch i'll ask him to release it
09:22 nothingmuch as for this camping thing: sounds like a fun port
09:22 nothingmuch let ruby and Perl 6 duke it out over brevity ;-)
09:22 arcady though I'm not sure that some of the fun ruby tricks will actually work in pugs
09:22 arcady or perl 6 in general for that matter
09:23 nothingmuch which tricks?
09:23 arcady like inheriting from a class that's returned by a function
09:23 nothingmuch works
09:23 arcady wow
09:23 nothingmuch (not in pugs ;-)
09:23 nothingmuch bug stevan on that
09:23 arcady heh
09:23 nothingmuch but the metamodel supports
09:23 nothingmuch it
09:23 arcady how much of OO actually works?
09:23 nothingmuch actually, maybe this stuff was fixed by now
09:23 nothingmuch to tell you the truth I really don't know
09:24 jisom well in parrot, classes are dynamic, created at runtime...so....
09:24 nothingmuch it's been a long while since i've done OO in pugs
09:24 nothingmuch jisom: *always*?
09:24 jisom aside from the root class, essentially.......to use something as an object, yes
09:24 nothingmuch how does it compile static vtables?
09:25 jisom except the core pmc's which are sort of seperate, a little
09:25 arcady from what I understand, there's two things that can be called a "class" in parrot
09:25 jisom what do you mean nothingmuch?
09:25 arcady PMC class, which is a low level class
09:25 arcady and high level class
09:25 jisom classes can be written in pir
09:25 jisom I've done it multiple times
09:26 nothingmuch jisom: i mean... if you have an object
09:26 nothingmuch and you're dispatching a method on it
09:26 nothingmuch the canonical way to make that fast is using vtables
09:26 nothingmuch except when you can completely prebind
09:26 jisom well, methods are sort of compile time......but to be able to say 'new "foo"' is runtime
09:27 nothingmuch if everything is dynamic at runtime then how can it precompute?
09:27 nothingmuch oh
09:27 jisom generally in a :load or ::immediate sub you do the newclass opcode
09:27 nothingmuch i see
09:27 nothingmuch (reminds me of forth ;-)
09:27 jisom you have to declare a sub to be a method and/or multi at compile time....
09:28 jisom well, I don't know the deep internals of pasm and oo code, but with pir it's adding the tag for the sub
09:28 nothingmuch eeek
09:29 nothingmuch camping is obfuscated
09:29 nothingmuch jisom: okay, that make sense
09:29 jisom but finding the method is runtime.....
09:29 jisom including vtables
09:30 nothingmuch ofcourse
09:30 nothingmuch the idea with vtables:
09:30 jisom otherwise inheriting isn't possible...
09:30 nothingmuch not inheriting
09:30 nothingmuch just polymorphism
09:30 nothingmuch with respect to inheritence =)
09:30 jisom eh, something
09:30 jisom :)
09:30 * nothingmuch is a C++ code monkey
09:30 nothingmuch C++ sucks
09:30 jisom looked into D?
09:31 jisom I get tempted to make a D derivative specific to parrot....
09:31 nothingmuch because it makes you make a distinction between virtual methods (which are vtable dispatched) and "normal" (read: screwed up) methods, which are always on the most generic type that the container is attributed with
09:31 nothingmuch no
09:31 nothingmuch i don't think i'll ever use D
09:31 arcady C++ traumatized me at a young age...
09:31 nothingmuch i don't intend iin staying in this static OO language scene
09:31 nothingmuch and $work won't switch to D just like that
09:32 jisom it's a c oriented language, that realizes backwards compatability isn't always a good thing
09:32 nothingmuch yeah, i kinda know it
09:32 nothingmuch *about* it, sorry
09:32 nothingmuch read some on it's website
09:32 nothingmuch saw some code examples
09:32 nothingmuch was impressed
09:32 nothingmuch sighed, in realization that $work would never switch, and moved on
09:33 nothingmuch ;-)
09:33 jisom too true.......plus i think it's only linux and win32.....only x86
09:33 nothingmuch anyway, one important thing is that sometimes you can use staticly bound methods if you can assert that none of the subtypes of your declared type for a given method dispatch overrides the method by this name
09:33 jisom sometimes backwards compatibility should not be kept, if backwards compatibility means doing things wrong
09:34 nothingmuch backwards compatibility sucks when you're making big changes
09:34 nothingmuch i prefer backwards availability
09:34 jisom I say "if it'd done wrong in the past, ignore backwards compatibility"
09:35 nothingmuch no, don't ignore
09:35 nothingmuch people have needs
09:35 nothingmuch they have tons of code they don't want to change
09:35 nothingmuch so give them a hand
09:35 nothingmuch make it easy for them to integrate the new with the old
09:36 jisom but having the old compiled code being compatible with the new compiled code isn't the same as saying "be able to compile the old as well as the new"
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09:37 lypanov jisom: how is D btw?
09:38 jisom I use osx on ppc
09:38 jisom :)
09:39 jisom I can tell by looking as lisp I don't want to program in it......I can tell by D that I can agree with large parts, far more than C
09:39 arcady don't like parentheses, eh?
09:42 nothingmuch there should be a pythonic-lisp
09:42 nothingmuch that is, white space instead of parens
09:42 nothingmuch lumi wondered how that would work out for people
09:46 arcady or maybe just a lispic python
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09:46 * jisom_ increases his want of a new isp
09:47 nothingmuch arcady: hah, guido will shoot you for that
09:47 arcady that's okay, I already want to shoot guido
09:47 arcady we can just have a duel
09:47 jisom_ guido's the python guy, right?
09:48 nothingmuch jisom: yes
09:49 * jisom_ waits for python and forth or lisp to somehow merge
09:49 nothingmuch forth?
09:49 nothingmuch that's completely orthogonal ;-)
09:49 nothingmuch forth is just a big macro language that happens to work well ;-)
09:49 jisom_ the whole "explicit precedence" thing
09:49 nothingmuch ah
09:49 nothingmuch syntax wise
09:50 arcady forth is a pretty neat idea
09:50 jisom_ syntax is very important....
09:50 * nothingmuch doesn't really care about syntax
09:50 nothingmuch i learn to use it eventually
09:50 jisom_ being able to easily program in a language is important
09:50 nothingmuch and it's always going to suck for something
09:51 arcady syntax postfix fine just works
09:51 jisom_ aside from lack of platform independence, it's why assembly's so rare now
09:51 nothingmuch arcady: if you're german ;-)
09:51 jisom_ I don't think many ever use prefix notation.....aka Polish Notation
09:51 nothingmuch jisom: assembly has very simple syntax ;-)
09:51 jisom_ pir too :)
09:52 nothingmuch right
09:52 nothingmuch == same thing
09:52 nothingmuch ease comes from abstraction
09:52 nothingmuch *good* abstraction
09:52 jisom_ and with the support I recently added, pir's now "high level assembly"
09:52 nothingmuch perl 5 kinda sucks for that, since you have to pay for abstraction with lots of syntax
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09:53 jisom_ if I remember right, p5's oo syntax was sort of a hack on approach
09:55 nothingmuch yes, very minimal
09:55 nothingmuch kinda, too minimal
09:55 jisom_ I prefer perl5's -> method invocant...instead of how java uses a period for too much
09:56 arcady well, perl 6 doesn't use . for package separator
09:56 nothingmuch me actually prefers .
09:56 nothingmuch it keeps properties and their objects together
09:56 jisom_ I like -> as it's clearly obvious...may be an extra character, but it's unambious
09:56 nothingmuch so it's easier to read them as one chunk
09:56 nothingmuch . is ambiguous?
09:56 arcady and then there's objective C... which has I think [object method]
09:56 nothingmuch yes
09:57 nothingmuch it had something even weirder
09:57 nothingmuch called selectors
09:57 nothingmuch which are onordered signatures
09:57 beppu I think selectors are dope.
09:57 jisom_ I look at obj-c and I don't want to ever again....and sometimes I do
09:57 nothingmuch [object param:value otherparam:otherValue ]
09:57 jisom_ I will never be an obj-c programmer
09:57 nothingmuch how come?
09:57 beppu selectors are a thing of beauty to me.
09:58 jisom_ but, part of why I became a perl programmer was because I could easily, and freely, learn the language
09:58 nothingmuch beppu: you'll like MMD
09:58 beppu I'm sure I will.  :)
09:58 jisom_ pir has mmd :-D
09:58 arcady MMD is definitely a wonderful idea
09:58 jisom_ and no pesky semicolons(which can be helpful sometimes)
09:59 jisom_ although parrot does lack mmd for constructors, without some kind of hack
09:59 beppu How is parrot doing lately?
10:01 lypanov jisom_: you've used D before or?
10:01 jisom_ I think the GPW's slowed down svn commits.....but Leo's done a lot for namespaces lately, and on the list there's been a fair bit of discussion regarding a formal io pdd......for something like parrot I want a pdd before implementing something important
10:01 jisom_ I'd noticed D at the shootout, and been to the website.......that's about it
10:01 lypanov okay. as much as me then :)
10:02 jisom_ languages targeting machine code that would have to deal directly with ram probably aren't good for parrot...
10:03 jisom_ and my little rule for a language, "if it takes more than five lines for a hello world, it's probably not one I'll like"
10:04 beppu is java the prime offender of this rule?
10:05 jisom_ it's an offender :)
10:05 jisom_ I think c# falls into it to, but, it's almost Java
10:07 jisom_ http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/sandbox/benchmark.php?test=hello&lang=all&sort=lines there's a few....and "normal formatting" counds
10:07 jisom_ *counts
10:07 jisom_ whoohoo, I left
10:07 jisom_ is now known as jisom
10:08 beppu I don't like Java as a language because it lacks conciseness.  However, there are Java programs that I really enjoy using (such as JavE, Azureus, FreeMind (and even Gmail).
10:08 beppu It's a bittersweet situation.
10:08 jisom well I'd guess 99% of computer users don't like C but they like C programs :-p
10:10 jisom as  you'll note, pir has 0 lines for hello world :)
10:10 jisom hello world in pir actually only requires three, in pasm it requires two
10:12 arcady and ocaml has the fastest hello world
10:12 jisom no c intel does
10:12 jisom the link I gave sorted by number of lines
10:13 arcady or rather, ocaml has the fastest one-line hello world
10:13 jisom intel's cc is often the fastest c compiler......
10:14 jisom it'd be nice if they offered a ppc or sparc computer, essentially an uncommon processor where less effort is focused
10:14 jisom io's actually the slowest for hello world
10:15 arcady well, why would intel care about ppc or sparc?
10:15 arcady though IBM would care about ppc
10:15 arcady don't know if they have their own compiler though
10:16 jisom they don't, but it would give an idea of how well a language is across platforms......many embedded devices are ppc
10:16 jisom considering Apple uses gcc, I wouldn't be surprised if IBM used it too
10:18 arcady the official compiler for linux/ppc is definitely gcc
10:19 arcady but I'm not sure about AIX
10:20 jisom Apple has more clout with ppc than linux so if Apple's using gcc, of course linux is using gcc.....of coure openbsd, freebsd, I assume netbsd, linux distro's use gcc.......gcc almost has a monopoly
10:20 jisom but I think it needs cygwin on win32 so.....
10:21 arcady IBM sells two OSs on ppc: linux and AIX
10:21 arcady linux comes with gcc, AIX comes with its own compiler I think
10:21 jisom Apple hardly even tries to make darwin a useable OS
10:21 Barry I just saw that "print" is "say" in Perl 6. I'd prefer "show".
10:22 Barry Make it so.
10:22 Barry Thanks.
10:22 azuroth sure thing, Barry
10:22 beppu sub show { say @_ }
10:22 azuroth show := &say; # right?
10:23 beppu I need to learn perl 6.  ;)
10:23 Barry I don't know. Looks like a dirty smiley to me.
10:23 azuroth so do I
10:23 Barry (:=)
10:24 beppu and perhaps it is.  dirty smilies are how perl likes to express itself.
10:25 Barry So what does printing to a file look like? Still "say"?
10:25 jisom perl6 seems to be too undecided on syntax to commit myself to learning it....... although the perl5.6's "our" is logical and it took a while to it to be added since perl5
10:26 arcady I think the syntax will only decide itself once enough people learn it and start complaining about changes
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10:26 gabor529 ?eval my @a=("x", "y", "z"); say "@a";
10:27 evalbot_9335 is now known as evalbot_9350
10:27 evalbot_9350 OUTPUT[@a ] bool::true
10:27 azuroth Barry: note that say /= print
10:27 jisom true.....does perl6 have something like "$a = <foo> with $/ = undef" instead of doing something like "do { $/ = undef; $a = <foo>; }"?
10:27 arcady I think there is a "slurp" function
10:27 beppu slurp?
10:27 gabor529 ?eval my @a=("x", "y", "z"); say @a;
10:27 evalbot_9350 OUTPUT[xyz ] bool::true
10:27 jisom but general to any global?
10:28 jisom *"local $/ = undef"
10:28 arcady like... $a = slurp $fh
10:29 jisom what about `do { $" = ", ";print @a;}`?
10:30 * jisom forgot local again
10:30 nothingmuch moosen
10:30 jisom ?
10:30 beppu (I thought something was weird.  (Lack of local))
10:30 gabor529 nothingmuch: "@a" does not (yet ?) interpolate
10:31 jisom ?eval say [email@hidden.address]
10:31 evalbot_9350 OUTPUT[foo@bar.com ] bool::true
10:31 nothingmuch gabor529: it never will
10:31 jisom that's why gabor529
10:31 nothingmuch synopsis 4 i think
10:31 * gabor529 goes back reading in the dark
10:32 lumi ?eval @bar = <a b c>; say [email@hidden.address] foo@bar{}"
10:32 evalbot_9350 Error: Undeclared variable: "@bar"
10:32 lumi ?eval my @bar = <a b c>; say [email@hidden.address] foo@bar{}"
10:32 nothingmuch use { }
10:32 gabor529 lumi: oh my :)
10:32 evalbot_9350 OUTPUT[foo@bar.com, fooa b c ] bool::true
10:32 nothingmuch actually it can be prettier
10:32 gabor529 ?eval my @a=("x", "y", "z"); say "{@a}";
10:32 * jisom loves syntax highlighting
10:33 nothingmuch ?eval "my @bar = <a b c>; say "foo{@bar}.com"
10:33 evalbot_9350 OUTPUT[x y z ] bool::true
10:33 nothingmuch and you can also use q:a{ }
10:33 evalbot_9350 Error:  unexpected "f" expecting term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
10:33 nothingmuch but probably not in pugs
10:33 beppu ? eval "perl6 hurts my head"
10:33 beppu ?eval "perl6 hurts my head even more"
10:33 evalbot_9350 "perl6 hurts my head even more"
10:34 nothingmuch ?eval say "per 6 hurts beppu's head" for 1 ...
10:34 jisom ?eval "is perl6 too complex to learn for someone who knows perl5?"
10:34 evalbot_9350 pugs: out of memory (requested 1048576 bytes)
10:34 nothingmuch jisom: no, i took me about 2 days
10:34 evalbot_9350 "is perl6 too complex to learn for someone who knows perl5?"
10:34 * jisom chuckles
10:34 lumi Not lazy?
10:34 nothingmuch lumi: it actually is lazy
10:35 nothingmuch but the evalbot buffer for accumilating STDOUT prolly filled up
10:35 jisom it needs a meg of memory for a print?
10:35 beppu there's so many new things.  + I'm tired and sleepy.  ;)
10:35 lumi ?eval (1 xx Inf)[Inf]
10:35 evalbot_9350 \1
10:35 lumi (Infinite loops in constant time :P)
10:36 arcady whoa.
10:36 jisom ?eval exp(1)**(pi * i)
10:36 evalbot_9350 Error: No such sub: "&i"
10:36 jisom ?eval exp(1)**(pi * (1 ** .5)) + 1
10:36 evalbot_9350 24.140692632779263
10:36 jisom wrong!!!!
10:36 jisom oh
10:37 jisom ?eval exp(1)**(pi * (-1 ** .5)) + 1
10:37 evalbot_9350 1.0432139182637723
10:37 jisom ok, now "wrong!!!!"
10:37 jisom :-D
10:38 arcady even python doesn't let you do that...
10:38 jisom perl5's closer, with Math::Complex
10:38 jisom it doesn't give 0, but it's closer
10:38 arcady well yes, but python has complex numbers built in
10:39 arcady but you can't actually take the square root of -1
10:39 nothingmuch wow! that works now
10:39 arcady you have to write 1j
10:39 jisom perl -MMath::Complex -le 'print exp(1) ** (pi *
10:39 jisom -1+1.22464679914735e-16i
10:39 jisom perl -MMath::Complex -le 'print exp(1) ** (pi *i);'
10:39 Juerd Hm, sourcefilter?
10:39 Juerd For 16i?
10:39 Barry left perl6
10:39 Gothmog_ joined perl6
10:40 nothingmuch jisom: someone added a Math::Complex to the pugs repo, have a look
10:40 jisom ?eval use Math::Complex; say exp(1) ** (pi * i) + 1
10:41 jisom like that?
10:41 evalbot_9350 pugs: *** Can't modify constant item: VUndef     at Prelude.pm line 667, column 14-28        Prelude.pm line 637, column 5-60        <prelude> line 62, column 30-59
10:41 nothingmuch jisom: i don't know what env evalbot runs in
10:41 nothingmuch try it out for yourself
10:42 jisom that would require booting my freebsd box and, it's lacking on memory for pugs
10:42 jisom ghc wanted over 250 megs to compile!
10:42 jisom pugs wants a lot too
10:42 beppu ?eval %ENV.each
10:42 evalbot_9350 Error: No such method in class Scalar: "&each"
10:42 * jisom needs to get around to getting complex numbers more fully supported on parrot
10:43 nothingmuch jisom: why not OSX?
10:44 nothingmuch and why do you want to compile GHC?
10:44 jisom ghc bootstraping......dialup.....
10:44 nothingmuch what's dialup got to do with it?
10:44 nothingmuch get your self a binary, BOY!
10:44 jisom slow
10:44 jisom eh, already have ghc source :-p
10:44 nothingmuch ah
10:44 nothingmuch in that case, give me your mailing address and I'll burn you a CD with binaries for freebsd and OSX
10:44 jisom and the freebsd bootstrap....
10:45 nothingmuch bootstrapping GHC is a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooonng process
10:45 jisom parrot's easier to work with for me, and, etc...
10:45 nothingmuch excuses excuses!
10:45 jisom looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooonger if it's constantly swapping
10:45 nothingmuch hence binary ;-)
10:45 nothingmuch i'm willing to help in any way i can
10:46 nothingmuch i'm serious about mailing you a CD
10:46 jisom eh, I imagine the darwin bootstrap isn't too bad, and with my package manager it wouldn't be too stressful, but still....
10:47 jisom and since if I were to really work with pugs, it'd be on the pir backend, and since there's the pil2 work in progress, it's like, "why now?"
10:47 nothingmuch binary binary binary binary
10:47 nothingmuch well
10:48 nothingmuch you get hooked
10:48 nothingmuch it's that simple =)
10:48 jisom on parrot
10:48 nothingmuch -Ofun
10:48 jisom :-D
10:48 nothingmuch you can have fuun on both
10:48 nothingmuch you can help drive PILwhatever so that you can emit PIR
10:48 nothingmuch you can help audreyt work out PIR stuff
10:48 nothingmuch you can start implementing necessary PIR features
10:48 jisom ackermann(leo's branch) and partialsums run faster than c on x86 with jit........that's -Ofun
10:49 nothingmuch you can help fglock and me and anyone else interested figure out what some backend things
10:49 nothingmuch because we want to write perl 6 compiler things that are orthogonal (for now) from pugs
10:50 jisom well in a sense, the more p6 base written in p6 means less to port to parrot.......
10:50 jisom it's not like pugs it optimized towards speed(too me hours, and computer "near crashes" to get it to compile)......and speed can happen after
10:51 jisom but I haven't done anything with lexicals in pir yet
10:51 nothingmuch pweeeeeeeeze pweeeze come help
10:52 nothingmuch i'll give you commit access
10:52 jisom although if you're writting in pir, you really don't need to use lexicals
10:52 jisom doesn't anyone get commit access?
10:52 jisom :-p
10:52 nothingmuch uh
10:52 nothingmuch yeah
10:52 nothingmuch but you're special!
10:52 nothingmuch i'll give you special commit access
10:52 nothingmuch like
10:53 nothingmuch i'll chant something when I add it
10:53 jisom yeah, I've gotten to the point of prefering pir over perl5
10:53 jisom and parrot in no way allows one liners
10:53 jisom besides the "exit $N0", "die 5, 1", and "end"
10:54 nothingmuch is parrot in any way useful for "real" work which is not very very specialized like what dan did?
10:54 jisom platform independent optimized easy to read and work with programming?
10:55 gaal joined perl6
10:55 arcady or whenever you happen to need a vm
10:56 nothingmuch hola gaal
10:56 GeJ nothingmuch: if I remember correctly, Dan Sugalski had some use of parrot at $work
10:56 nothingmuch GeJ: yeah, i remember that
10:56 nothingmuch but i was more interested in $anything_else
10:56 arcady he used it as a target for a compiler for some horrible specialized language
10:56 nothingmuch i mean, it's a pretty low level language, i'm not sure if it fits any niche but being a target backend
10:56 nothingmuch yeah, i know =)
10:56 * nothingmuch reads dan's blog
10:57 jisom Dan's currently working on forking parrot to a separate project with another purpose, although seemingly starting from scratch...I guess vm's are fun
10:57 nothingmuch i'm kinda skeptical about this one
10:57 jisom nothingmuch, could anyone but someone who knew pir port something to pir?
10:57 nothingmuch no global data is a bit too much
10:58 nothingmuch jisom: yes, they could learn PIR and then....
10:58 vodka-goo joined perl6
10:58 * jisom should write up a tutorial for pir using the new hllmacros.pir include that'll make it easier for newbies
10:58 arcady does anything even compile to pir these days?
10:59 azuroth an implementation of tcl 'almost' does
10:59 * jisom writes in pir
11:00 jisom although it gets far less press, I think lua's coming up a lot......I don't know lua, I haven't used it, but I get the idea it's at least "useful" now
11:00 azuroth and amber
11:00 azuroth amber looks pretty neat
11:00 bsb joined perl6
11:00 * jisom hasn't looked at amber for a while, but seen the commits for lua
11:01 arcady and perl 1 is coming along reasonably well too
11:02 * jisom wishes punie had more of what was done in parrot's svn
11:02 nothingmuch i don't understand why it's perl 1
11:02 nothingmuch it's not such a simple language
11:02 nothingmuch but otoh it's a pretty non fun language to write in
11:03 jisom perl1 doesn't run well for me either
11:04 jisom I can understand using perl1 because of it's legacy to perl6, but of course, part of it is more the method of compiling to pir than the language
11:05 nothingmuch right, but the language could be a subset of perl 5
11:05 * jisom wonders how much of perl6 breaks compatibility with perl1 than perl5 does, besides oo
11:05 nothingmuch which has e.g. lexicals, and more consistency
11:05 jisom but "$  = 'foo';" is valid :-p
11:06 jisom but perl1 does seem to lack sin and cos :(
11:06 nothingmuch and lexicals
11:07 nothingmuch and user subs
11:07 jisom think of how many perl5 programs could relatively easily be ported to perl1, for probably a substantial speed improvement.....
11:07 jisom how many interpreters do you know of that "can compile faster than many programs run"?
11:08 nothingmuch i'm not sure there would be a speed improvement
11:08 nothingmuch the emitter backend has to be very good
11:08 nothingmuch remember that factorial is just one benchmark
11:09 nothingmuch written in high quality PIR
11:09 nothingmuch machines don't write code as good as humans do
11:10 jisom but with proper knowledge of the machine, machines can write code better than humans......for the machine anyway
11:10 nothingmuch true
11:10 arcady machines also don't get bored as easily
11:10 nothingmuch but it's enough that there is one bottleneck
11:11 * jisom sometimes gets the urge to get parrot/pir stripped to writting portably assembly
11:11 nothingmuch anywho, it doesn't matter... punie is a research project. no one willl port their perl 5 to punie for performance
11:11 nothingmuch call it a "hunch" ;-)
11:12 jisom it's like with the patrialsums benchmark, the fast pir version.....I tried writing a c version of the same style, and compiled it, and it was still slower than parrot
11:12 nothingmuch also, while parrot's speed is good for these things, i've heard many criticisms about speed for other things
11:12 jisom and because punie's a "research project," I personally wish it was more open and less of only Allison's, as in being in parrot's svn :-\
11:13 jisom well, it required using JIT on x86......
11:13 audreyt rehi
11:13 jisom taking advantage of jit on parrot requires knowing it's limitations....
11:13 LeTo hi audreyt
11:13 * audreyt breathes in the fresh air of tcpip
11:13 jisom don't get electrocuted
11:14 LeTo audreyt: is all arranged with Gerda wrt travelling?
11:14 jisom http://svn.perl.org/parrot/trunk/runtime/parrot/include/hllmacros.pir <= his pride and joy contribution to parrot, including it's possibility
11:15 audreyt LeTo: no, I havn't called Gerda yet
11:16 nothingmuch LeTo: is this prehackathon or posthackathon arrangements?
11:16 LeTo nothingmuch: pre
11:16 LeTo audreyt: you can mail here too, you got the addr
11:17 audreyt (calling her now)
11:17 nothingmuch LeTo: convince jisom that his assistance will help pugs/parrot get along ;-)
11:17 LeTo nothingmuch: he's helping already
11:18 jisom supporting parrot helps to get rid of pugs :-D
11:19 jisom although if perl1 is any indication, pugs will live on for a long time
11:19 nothingmuch LeTo: i know, i just want to give him pugs commit access too, and make him try to run stuff
11:19 nothingmuch oh, jisom, i know - you can help with the embed-parrot-in-pugs stuff
11:19 nothingmuch pugs uses parrot for rules
11:20 jisom nothingmuch, my fastest computer is 900mHz and around 128M ram....my iBook has 384M ram but 800mHz, i.e. slow for pugs
11:21 LeTo nothingmuch: don't poach my workers here ;)
11:21 nothingmuch LeTo: heh
11:21 nothingmuch jisom: okay okay
11:21 jisom since both perl5 and parrot support constantly running programs, you could write a perl5 program and a pir program that read input, then a text string, and return a dump of matches.....
11:21 nothingmuch jisom: you can have a parrot account though
11:21 jisom I do :-p
11:22 nothingmuch err
11:22 nothingmuch sorry
11:22 nothingmuch a feather account
11:22 nothingmuch *confusion*
11:22 * jisom has dialup
11:22 nothingmuch dialup can deal with ssh
11:22 nothingmuch no nitpicking
11:22 nothingmuch get a madfast machine to run your parrot on ;-)
11:22 nothingmuch talk to Juerd
11:23 jisom but I need to be online(and use the phone line) to use...and  "svn revert"
11:23 nothingmuch svk
11:23 nothingmuch ;-)
11:23 nothingmuch i'll give you $1 a month to fund your broadband
11:23 nothingmuch you know what? $3
11:23 * jisom is unemployed
11:25 nothingmuch intentionally?
11:25 jisom course not
11:26 nothingmuch had a look on jobs.perl.org?
11:26 nothingmuch there's lots of freelance stuff
11:26 uszr` joined perl6
11:26 nothingmuch lots of telecommute, too
11:26 jisom I'd hate to have to program as a job......it'd take the fun out
11:27 nothingmuch not necessarily
11:27 nothingmuch as long as you make sure your hours are good
11:27 nothingmuch what would you rather do as a job?
11:28 jisom didn't mind being a janitor.....didn't mind being a factory working making the same repetitive motion 8 hours a day.....I'm weird like that
11:29 nothingmuch hmm
11:29 nothingmuch what about some crafts profession?
11:29 jisom tiny town
11:29 * nothingmuch always secretly wanted to be a wood worker
11:29 nothingmuch it makes my dermatitis flare up though
11:30 jisom I kind of prefer clay...clay's repairable
11:30 nothingmuch never managed to do what I wanted with clay
11:30 lumi You wanted to be a lumberjack?
11:30 nothingmuch lumi: no
11:30 nothingmuch nagar
11:30 lumi Ah
11:30 nothingmuch make pretty drawers and stuff
11:31 jisom I have a friend who was a partner in an isp(recently bought out by the other parter), and now bought a metal lathe...
11:32 jisom a guy who one was essentially given a computer by the university who they said "would never work again" and got it to work
11:36 cognominal_ joined perl6
11:37 jisom quick question, does pugs' "make test" test the pod formatting on all files in pugs' svn that  contain pod?
11:38 audreyt no. feel free to add t/00-pod
11:38 audreyt or something like that
11:38 audreyt t/00-doc
11:39 jisom parrot has one, t/doc/pod.t, one of my pet peeves with perl5's default install is not requiring podspec conformance....
11:39 audreyt please add t/00-doc/pod.t then.
11:40 jisom in fact, you can probably copy parrot's over to pugs without much issue
11:40 jisom aside from the "MANIFEST.generated" parts
11:41 Muable joined perl6
11:41 audreyt k. a commit bit is on your way
11:41 jisom eh no need
11:42 jisom I'm tired
11:42 audreyt please commit to the same checkout as http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/
11:42 audreyt you can surely refuse to accept it :)
11:45 jisom does pugs have a MANIFEST?
11:45 audreyt no, it is generated each time before release.
11:46 jisom so different from parrot's...where it's supposed to be regenerated with each addition or deletion...
11:46 audreyt yeah. it's too much a hassle for our style of dev
11:46 jisom then it's not a simple copy over....
11:47 * jisom looks for the email he sent to p6i that did it for him
11:47 KingDiamond joined perl6
11:48 nothingmuch frack
11:48 gaal hey audreyt, bsb discovered that:
11:48 nothingmuch how did you get him to get a comitter bit?
11:48 nothingmuch i tried for an hour
11:48 gaal 1. macro M { ..... } M 1+2 works
11:48 gaal 2. .... M(1+2) does not
11:48 audreyt nothingmuch: I looked up his email from p6i and sent one
11:48 gaal 3. even when reverting most of the changes of the castV patch, the same behavior exists
11:49 nothingmuch haha
11:49 audreyt nothingmuch: the key is "don't try"
11:49 audreyt gaal: ok, looking into it
11:49 audreyt but I need to fix the END thing for good now
11:49 gaal sure, just a data point
11:50 audreyt hm, @*END is also bogus. yay
11:50 audreyt it needs to be @Test::END
11:50 audreyt and then merged back to main END
11:51 audreyt I mean *END
11:51 audreyt because `unionPad` cannot join two arrays like that
11:51 jisom find -E . -not \( -name .svn -prune \) -type f -not -perm +111 -not -regex '.*\.([a-z0-9_]+|C)' -not -name Makefile -not -name harness -exec podchecker '{}' \; |& grep -v 'does not contain any pod commands' # under tcsh
11:51 gaal again the confusion between packages and scopes?
11:51 jisom although some of that's specific to parrot
11:51 audreyt gaal: more like, separate compilation
11:52 audreyt gaal: because under monolithic compilation you just keep adding stuff to @*END
11:52 audreyt gaal: but now things are separately compiled
11:52 audreyt and as such the @*END needs to be stringed together
11:52 gaal A.pm: module Test; ...; __END__ blah
11:53 svnbot6 r9351 | bsb++ |  r9217@rex:  bsb | 2006-02-27 17:02:33 +0200
11:53 svnbot6 r9351 | bsb++ |  make haddock now should work with drift output (by ignoring it)
11:53 gaal B.pm: module Test; ...; __END__ blah
11:53 gaal time for lunch, bbiab
11:54 jisom btw, I wrote a script for parrot, parrot's svn/tools/dev/mk_manifest_and_skip.pl which recreates MANIFEST and MANIFEST.SKIP.....it does require an svn repo
11:54 svnbot6 r9352 | bsb++ |  r9345@rex:  bsb | 2006-03-07 22:13:55 +0200
11:54 svnbot6 r9352 | bsb++ |  A bare return from a macro results in a Noop AST
11:54 svnbot6 r9353 | bsb++ |  r9346@rex:  bsb | 2006-03-07 22:14:27 +0200
11:54 svnbot6 r9353 | bsb++ |  haddock_tips tweak
11:54 svnbot6 r9354 | bsb++ |  r9347@rex:  bsb | 2006-03-07 22:16:10 +0200
11:54 svnbot6 r9354 | bsb++ |  Mention haddock vim syntax
11:55 nnunley joined perl6
11:55 svnbot6 r9356 | bsb++ |  r9378@rex:  bsb | 2006-03-09 13:52:20 +0200
11:55 svnbot6 r9356 | bsb++ |  Add a subBody omitted in a recent refactor.
11:55 svnbot6 r9356 | bsb++ |  Remove a stale comment
11:56 bsb arg!  svk  is freaking out again!
11:56 kane_ is now known as kane-xs
11:56 * jisom looks at the warnings and errors in pugs' svn repo
11:58 audreyt gaal: er no, it's END{...}
12:09 kisu joined perl6
12:10 clkao bsb: huh?
12:11 bsb During the hackathon I got old log message repeated when doing an svk push
12:12 bsb audrey did some magic and everything was fine
12:12 bsb Now it may be happening again, we'll see with the next svk push
12:13 clkao mmm
12:14 bsb This is svk, version 1.04.
12:14 gaal ah ah ah, END hooks not POD!
12:15 audreyt fixed anyway
12:15 audreyt committing
12:20 bsb clkao: svk pushing now
12:20 bsb One change
12:23 svnbot6 r9357 | bsb++ |  r9385@rex:  bsb | 2006-03-09 14:20:53 +0200
12:23 svnbot6 r9357 | bsb++ |  Noop q:code{} returning macro test
12:23 svnbot6 r9358 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Prim.Eval: When both modules export the same
12:23 svnbot6 r9358 | audreyt++ |   global symbol, let the included module win.
12:23 svnbot6 r9358 | audreyt++ |   (Eventually it should be invalid to export global
12:23 svnbot6 r9358 | audreyt++ |    non-multi symbols this way, maybe...)
12:24 nothingmuch audreyt: does macro with q:code { BEGIN { } } only execute the begin block when the q:code is interpolated?
12:24 chris2 joined perl6
12:24 nothingmuch (into the receiving AST)
12:25 nothingmuch or within the macro itself?
12:26 nothingmuch bsb: what parts of israel did you see already?
12:26 nothingmuch did you go hiking in the north and stuff?
12:26 audreyt nothingmuch: I think it executes whenever it's interpolated
12:27 nothingmuch goody... i preferred those semantics ;-)
12:27 bsb Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Nazareth, Haifa, Dead Sea, Masada, hackathon bits
12:28 nothingmuch seems more... "clean", in that code quoting is completely non active
12:28 lumi Jaffa
12:28 nothingmuch what?! you went to mesada and didn't ping me??????? traitors!
12:28 * lumi didn't go, so not a traitor
12:29 svnbot6 r9359 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Parser: END blocks are now associated to per-package
12:29 svnbot6 r9359 | audreyt++ |   symtable instead of pushed into @*END.  "use" a module
12:29 svnbot6 r9359 | audreyt++ |   now simply copies its END blocks to the current compilation
12:29 svnbot6 r9359 | audreyt++ |   unit -- at program exit, the outermost @END is then executed.
12:29 svnbot6 r9359 | audreyt++ | * Moreover, change the END sequences to happen in LIFO order.
12:29 bsb was an organized tour...
12:29 nothingmuch phoeeey! excuses excuses
12:29 gaal the organized tour didn't include nothingmuch's house? traitors!
12:32 audreyt ok, now all modules are compiled, I'm forced to fix emitting of closures
12:32 audreyt otherwise this is currently broken
12:33 audreyt my $x; sub moose is export { say $x } sub goose is export { $x = 9 }
12:33 nothingmuch emitting closures == important
12:33 nothingmuch something difficult though
12:33 nothingmuch if you serialize two closures
12:33 nothingmuch that capture a shared container
12:34 nothingmuch how do you serialize them at the same time?
12:34 audreyt using YAML references
12:34 audreyt YAML is a graph not a tree
12:34 nothingmuch yeah, i know
12:34 nothingmuch i mean, how do you get two codes in the same yaml document
12:34 nothingmuch err
12:34 nothingmuch like
12:34 nothingmuch &code.yaml
12:35 nothingmuch or whatever
12:35 nothingmuch (not just precompilation)
12:35 nothingmuch perhaps .perl is a better example
12:35 audreyt oh. then you need object ids
12:35 nothingmuch hmm
12:35 nothingmuch i think i see a consistent path:
12:35 svnbot6 r9360 | gaal++ | * precompilation_cache.pod:
12:35 svnbot6 r9360 | gaal++ | - incorporate nothingmuch++'s edits
12:35 svnbot6 r9360 | gaal++ | - add load flow (reviews welcome)
12:35 nothingmuch $deserializer = Deserializer.new;
12:36 nothingmuch and if you deserialize with the same deserializer object it'll make sure that all object IDs are shared
12:36 audreyt ...if we use UUIDs internally then we get that anyway
12:36 nothingmuch if they are the same in the serializer output
12:36 nothingmuch isn't that a *BIG* memory overhead?
12:36 audreyt depends on the application
12:37 audreyt (not saying that we do that.)
12:37 nothingmuch hmm
12:39 kane-xs seen rindolf
12:40 nothingmuch kane-xs: jabbot is dead
12:40 kane-xs long live jabbot!
12:43 highfi joined perl6
12:47 nivrrex joined perl6
12:47 highfi laptop for sale 500$ want it gone today. price includes shipping, case, wireless router. message me if interested on aim at ogd443 or msn at [email@hidden.address]
13:00 kane-xs hooray for kline
13:01 nothingmuch kline?
13:01 audreyt "irc obliterate"
13:01 ruz joined perl6
13:04 nothingmuch oh, i didn't notice the spam
13:06 nivrrex left perl6
13:10 iblechbot joined perl6
13:15 svnbot6 r9361 | fglock++ | misc/pX/Common/lrep/Deal.txt - braindump
13:15 rgs joined perl6
13:17 Limbic_Region joined perl6
13:22 kolibrie joined perl6
13:22 fglock joined perl6
13:25 * nothingmuch gets killed by the desert
13:26 nothingmuch lumi|gaal: have you been getting dust storms in the TA area?
13:27 kolibrie nothingmuch: you just have to stay inside
13:27 nothingmuch kolibrie: not really
13:27 nothingmuch i am inside
13:27 nothingmuch but the air is dry
13:27 nothingmuch especially when they keep the AC on
13:27 audreyt (brb)
13:28 nothingmuch can't run away from nasty weather =/
13:28 kolibrie I never had a problem with dry air
13:28 kolibrie I remember some pretty amazing dust storms, and we just sat back and waited till they were over
13:29 gaal nothingmuch: yeah, but nothing like 3 weeks ago
13:30 nothingmuch what did we have 3 weeks ago? i forgot
13:30 nothingmuch oh... i remember actually
13:30 gaal orange afternoon
13:30 fglock nothingmuch: hi! re yesterday, I wrote a couple of ideas - misc/pX/Common/lrep/Deal.txt
13:30 nothingmuch here it's the same as then
13:30 nothingmuch all week now
13:30 gaal lots of pollution in Tel-Aviv
13:30 nothingmuch fglock: i'll have a look
13:30 nothingmuch take a look?
13:31 fglock dunno - I'm not a native speaker either
13:31 kolibrie nothingmuch: either or, they mean about the same
13:32 nothingmuch fglock: * Long term (>2 weeks) plan - Have a plan for Perl 6 Alpha
13:32 nothingmuch cute ;-)
13:32 nothingmuch i don't think allison can help with types/oo, perl 1 had neither ;-)
13:33 nothingmuch the doc is hard to read, please try to make it  hierarchal
13:33 nothingmuch with headings
13:33 nothingmuch =, ==, ===
13:33 nothingmuch separate thoughts from plans
13:33 Limbic_Region OT but something that looks interesting http://critticall.com/
13:34 audreyt Limbic_Region: btw, I can't dupe the zlib problem in win32
13:34 nothingmuch Limbic_Region: they suck, actually
13:34 audreyt and the "use Test" bug you reported is now fixed
13:34 nothingmuch Limbic_Region: they charge $$$$ for stuff that is not very impressive, appearantly
13:36 Limbic_Region audreyt - great news on the latter, confusing news on the former
13:37 Limbic_Region audreyt - I can't figure out why my Win32 build at home doesn't set USE_ZLIB and the one at work does
13:37 audreyt same version of ghc et al?
13:37 Limbic_Region the one at home works fine (but isn't using zlib) and the one at work also works (uses zlib but requires cygwin)
13:37 Limbic_Region audreyt - AFAICT
13:38 gaal nothingmuch: could you give the code in precompilation_cache a gander?
13:38 Limbic_Region audreyt - on your Win32 build, does your .setup-config have USE_ZLIB enabled?
13:38 Limbic_Region it may be that you aren't reproducing the bizarro behavior because you aren't even attempting to do zlib
13:39 audreyt I see -DUSE_ZLIB -lz
13:39 Limbic_Region and it works right
13:39 audreyt I think what happens is that
13:39 audreyt normally we should see libz.a
13:39 audreyt in gcc-lib
13:39 audreyt but if your PATH has a libz.a first
13:39 Limbic_Region ok - chalk my environment up to an anonomoly
13:40 audreyt i.e. if you have cygwin/bin in path
13:40 * Limbic_Region thought of that too - and modified his PATH variable accordingly
13:40 audreyt hrm.
13:40 Limbic_Region Cygwin stuff should only come into play when I am in a cygwin shell and not a command prompt
13:41 audreyt well, if it had modified your PATH already
13:41 gaal is "anonomoly" an unassigned bug?
13:41 audreyt then it affects you no matter what
13:41 Limbic_Region audreyt - no, I mean before I launched the command window
13:41 nothingmuch gaal: yes
13:41 Limbic_Region is there a way to query ld.exe to find where it is finding a lib that it is linking with?
13:42 svnbot6 r9362 | audreyt++ | * More warnings avoidance by qualifying instance imports
13:42 svnbot6 r9362 | audreyt++ |   and add a type signature to preludeStr. No functional changes.
13:42 audreyt not sure.
13:42 Limbic_Region nothingmuch ref critticall - good 2 know.  I wasn't interested in purchasing but some of the results looked neat
13:42 wilx Hm, try gcc -v, it will show you the commands it runs and then copy the ld command and add -v too.
13:42 nothingmuch Limbic_Region: there was a big discussion in #some_channel a while ago
13:42 Limbic_Region Ok - here is what I can do
13:43 nothingmuch if you look at their hype you can see that it's actually pretty mundane... the "ultra fast sort thing" is just a weird bucket sort, for example
13:43 Limbic_Region I can set up a find through my path looking for anything that resembles libz.a
13:43 wilx Hmm, or rather --verbose for ld.
13:43 nothingmuch also, the code that comes out is only conjecturally correct
13:43 nothingmuch (as in, it seems to work on whatever tests they made for it)
13:43 nothingmuch but since it's usually weird code it's hard to prove it's correctness
13:43 nothingmuch and hard to debug
13:44 audreyt Limbic_Region: yeah, that sounds good. also look for libz.dll.a
13:44 fglock audreyt: would you mind read Deal.txt? I'm likely to delete or change it later
13:44 audreyt fglock: I already am
13:45 nothingmuch gaal: s/die/fail/
13:45 gaal nothingmuch: those are all caught
13:45 nothingmuch just a good habit
13:45 gaal so they need to always die
13:45 nothingmuch oh
13:45 audreyt fglock: FYI I think self-hosting in perl5 is "the" way to go.
13:45 nothingmuch okay
13:45 nothingmuch i thought CATCH always catches fail
13:45 nothingmuch even without use fatal
13:45 gaal nothingmuch: it's used like goto CLEANUP
13:45 nothingmuch it's just that if it's not cought then it's not a deadly catch
13:45 gaal how can that happen?
13:45 audreyt fglock: your only argument against that seems to be "not Pugs tradition"
13:46 fglock audreyt: I'm not happing with yet-another split in the Perl 6 project
13:46 audreyt fglock: I'd like to point out that there is no tradition in Pugs :)
13:46 fglock s/happing/happy/
13:46 audreyt (or rather, our tradition has always been breaking traditions)
13:46 audreyt (as long as it's fun)
13:46 gaal the whole point of no fatal is thatit doesn't raise an exception, no?
13:46 audreyt fglock: I don't see it as a split from the Hs core
13:46 nothingmuch i thought the whole point is that you don't *have* to catch exceptions to resiume execution
13:47 nothingmuch that is, the code will try to continue with a bad value, instead of aborted control flow
13:47 nothingmuch but if you are bothering to check for errors you still get to handle them
13:47 gaal hmmmm
13:47 audreyt fglock: the way I worked with stevan et al has always been: prototype something in p5 quickly, port it to Hs to find out corner cases, then redo it in p5 to get more people involved and CPAN it
13:47 audreyt fglock: I think for OO and for Grammars we are pretty close to the "redo in p5" phase
13:47 gaal nothingmuch: sounds much harder to implement
13:48 audreyt fglock: and the Hs runtime can be replaced piecemeal in p5/p6
13:48 nothingmuch gaal: whenever you exit a scope you check if the parent scope has explicit use fatal or no fatal
13:48 audreyt fglock: p5 for all the infrastructural (VM) things, p6 for the builtins, just like what you are doing
13:48 nothingmuch and if not you check it's caller, etc etc etc
13:48 nothingmuch fail is like return
13:48 fglock audreyt: how do you see a closer collaboration with LambdaCamels?
13:48 nothingmuch it will always break the current scope
13:49 Limbic_Region audreyt - I have a couple of lz32.dll files in some windows directories but that's it
13:49 nothingmuch but the question is whether it will die in the outer scope or not
13:49 audreyt Limbic_Region: hm, weird
13:49 fglock audreyt: there is a lot of architecture stuff needed
13:49 audreyt Limbic_Region: zlib.h ?
13:49 audreyt fglock: explain... you mean like prim bindings?
13:49 fglock audreyt: like what the AST will look like
13:49 Limbic_Region audreyt - nope
13:49 fglock audreyt: unify the node names
13:50 fglock audreyt: add the proper annotations
13:50 Limbic_Region and yet, when I compile an executable with ghc and link using -lz it works fine
13:50 audreyt fglock: right. but all this can happen piecemeal
13:50 audreyt fglock: like, currently we use PGE for rules.
13:50 audreyt fglock: I'd like to switch to p5 for rules.
13:50 nothingmuch gaal: anyway, the code looks good
13:50 fglock audreyt: you mean, after self-hosting?
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13:50 Limbic_Region audreyt - perhaps there is another env variable at play here
13:50 audreyt fglock: no, like, this week.
13:50 * Limbic_Region checks again
13:51 audreyt fglock: and then we figure out how to ship objects between Hsland and P5land via YAML serialization
13:51 nothingmuch i don't know if i like IO methods in the String class
13:51 nothingmuch i.e. "foo".readdir
13:51 nothingmuch on the one hand it's very useful
13:51 nothingmuch on the other hand it's also a big intertwined mess
13:51 nothingmuch maybe readdir is a multimethod on Str provided by the IO::Dir prelude module or something?
13:51 audreyt fglock: basically, currently the Hs parts can be split roughly into "runtime" and "compiler" parts
13:52 audreyt fglock: my wish is to port the former to p5 and the later to p6
13:52 fglock audreyt: re p5 for rules - you can already use p6 for rules
13:52 audreyt fglock: right, you ported that to p6
13:53 audreyt in any case, I think p5-as-runtime is definitely the way forward
13:53 audreyt hs-as-runtime was just so that I can understand what's going on better
13:53 audreyt I'll read about Deal.txt more and discuss with Leo tonight
13:53 audreyt I'm leaving Vienna in <1hr
13:54 fglock audreyt: what would you need the compiler structure to be - it can be changed anytime
13:54 gaal oops, back
13:54 fglock audreyt: actually, you have more resources to change it then I :)
13:54 audreyt fglock: do I? :) you mean time? :)
13:54 fglock audreyt: experience
13:54 audreyt I'll think about it more on the car to Leo's place.
13:55 audreyt s/on/during/; s/car/car drive/; # or something
13:55 fglock audreyt: thanks
13:55 audreyt np :)
13:55 audreyt I'll bbiab
13:55 gaal audreyt: looks like bsb found the macro problem
13:55 nothingmuch ciao
13:55 nothingmuch going home
13:55 gaal (maybe)
13:56 gaal so don't worry about that if it was still in your queue
13:59 Limbic_Region audreyt - I am on to something
13:59 Limbic_Region ran strings on ld.exe
13:59 Limbic_Region it has some hardcoded search paths
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14:24 * Limbic_Region gives up
14:31 elmex joined perl6
14:32 fglock re OO AST nodes - does it make any sense to use hashes, and autobox when necessary? (just because building objects during the parsing may be expensive - backtracking throws many nodes away)
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14:36 audreyt fglock: for perf I'll even just use arrays with constant lookup keys
14:36 audreyt fglock: but I'd suggest to _not_ care about performance
14:36 audreyt just optimize for clarity/effieciency for coding
14:36 audreyt it may be nice to adopt the haskellish
14:36 audreyt Val(VInt(3))
14:37 audreyt i.e. instead of calling ->new, use functions as constructors
14:37 fglock audreyt: but are resulting nodes objects of functions?
14:39 fglock audreyt: you mean like:   rule xxx {... { return Val(VInt(3)) } }
14:40 fglock audreyt: I'm ok with that - Val and VInt are "node constructor" functions, which we can modify later
14:41 fglock    rule xxx {... { return Val(VInt( $1 )) } }
14:43 audreyt yes.
14:43 audreyt this is because in p6
14:43 audreyt VInt(3)
14:43 audreyt is basically
14:43 audreyt 3 as VInt
14:44 audreyt and you can install multis in the VInt class to anticipate the infix "as" call
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14:44 fglock audreyt: and if Val returns a function, we can delay "building" the AST by not evaluating it, right?
14:44 audreyt yes
14:44 audreyt but I'm not sure how much you gain in p5land from that
14:45 fglock audreyt: I don't know too - just thinking aloud :)
14:45 audreyt without core support for thunks, and with a typical compiler run visiting all nodes
14:45 audreyt delaying ast buildup doesn't gain you much.
14:46 fglock audreyt: you get time by not bulding things that would be destroyed by backtracking - I think that's all
14:47 audreyt yup, so it's CV creation vs HVMG creation
14:48 audreyt well, with the encapsulation offereed by function constuctors we can switch style at all times
14:48 audreyt but my gut feeling is that plain HVMG is good enough
14:48 fglock audreyt: VInt(3) - you don't need to specify the argument name? (sorry, I don't really know p6)
14:49 fglock HVMG?
14:49 audreyt no - it's a coercion
14:49 audreyt blessed hashref
14:49 audreyt some help in p5land for this kind of thing:
14:49 audreyt http://search.cpan.org/dist/Symbol-Opaque/
14:49 audreyt http://search.cpan.org/dist/Data-Variant/
14:53 audreyt ok, I'm leaving here to be picked up to Leo's now
14:53 audreyt be back in ~4hrs
14:53 audreyt &
15:03 svnbot6 r9363 | fglock++ | lrep - updated Tasks, Notes
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15:36 broquaint pugs: *** No such method in class Str: "&use"
15:36 broquaint From the latest checkout. Can someone point me to on how/where to fix this?
15:37 broquaint I'm guessing Prelude.pm
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15:55 clkao audreyt: yaml::syck bug
15:55 clkao "--- #YAML:1.0 {}" returns undef rather than empty hash
15:56 gaal broquaint: it's known b0rkage
15:56 gaal broquaint: s/macro/sub/ in Prelude for now,
15:56 gaal in "use" and "require"
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16:13 broquaint Nice. Thanks, gaal :)
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16:22 svnbot6 r9364 | putter++ | Regexp-ReplaceEngine.pm - remove code obsoleted by new lexical scoping.
16:22 fglock audreyt: "_not_ care about performance" - that's the hard part for me - I used to write in assembler :)
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16:34 bsb ?eval macro M($a) { say $a; return q:code{} }; say(M(1+2)~"<")
16:35 evalbot_9350 is now known as evalbot_9364
16:35 evalbot_9364 user error (unhandled elementYamlStr "~") pugs: *** cannot cast from VUndef to Handle (VHandle)     at <prelude> line 200, column 24-45        <prelude> line 224, column 13-25        <prelude> line 278, column 5-55        -e line 1, column 1
16:36 TimToady fglock: the P6 grammar is designed to not require much backtracking at all (unless you want to go back and give better diags), so I wouldn't sweat it.
16:36 fglock TimToady: ok - it's mostly because I haven't implemented ':' yet :)
16:37 TimToady fglock: in fact, if there's *any* place in the grammar that requires backtracking for a correct parse, I'd like to know about it...
16:38 fglock TimToady: I'll maybe add a switch to disable backtracking or give a warning - so we'll know :)
16:38 avar joined perl6
16:38 TimToady cool
16:39 TimToady we even try to avoid alternation in favor of <%tokens>.
16:39 Draconit_ joined perl6
16:40 Draconit_ left perl6
16:40 TimToady and <%tokens> is potentially the merge of several syntactic categories, so we don't have to say
16:40 putter is there a target grammar category?  (in the parsing sense, not the p6 sense;)
16:40 TimToady <%statements_control> | <%unaries> | <%terms>
16:41 fglock TimToady: is there an existing Grammar file you would recommend as a start point?
16:41 TimToady putter: don't understand what you're asking...
16:41 * putter wonders what %unaries is
16:42 putter LALR(1), etc
16:42 TimToady s/unaries/prefix/
16:42 TimToady + circumfix left side
16:42 putter ah, ok
16:42 TimToady Actually, circumfix could be considered a subset of terms.
16:42 putter yes
16:42 putter (i think)
16:43 TimToady fglock: not that I'm aware of, unless Patrick has one.
16:43 TimToady The approach we've been taking...
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16:43 TimToady is to have a 3-layer parser.
16:43 TimToady (well, where the 3rd layer is really fractal...)
16:43 TimToady the top layer is top-down, down to expression level.
16:44 TimToady the middle layer is a bottom-up operator precedence parser to avoid
16:44 TimToady excessive recursion through 22 or so prec levels.
16:44 TimToady each term can then be its own little top-down parser inside the token grabber for the op prec parser.
16:45 TimToady I also worry about efficiency... :)
16:45 fglock TimToady: :)
16:46 putter the token grabber selects which term to use how?
16:46 TimToady One of the additional reasons for installing the op-prec parser in the middle is to allow for added prec levels.
16:47 TimToady but we don't necessarily need that for a bootstrap.
16:47 TimToady Unless we actually add all of Perl 6's opcodes that way.
16:48 fglock TimToady: the idea (so far) is to add all prims using sub or macro declarations
16:48 TimToady <%mush_of_all_syntactic_categories_where_term_is_expected>
16:49 TimToady which can have prec declarations, so we could add most prec levels that way, if the underlying prec architecture can support it.
16:49 putter terms can have prec decls?
16:51 TimToady terms by definition have a "squinting" prec that is infinitely tight looking out and infinitely loose looking in.  That's why circumfixes are so popular to represent visually the "surreal" precedence change.
16:51 Limbic_Region TimToady - did you see http://perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=535263 (Perl 6 gets some press)?
16:52 Limbic_Region which actually just mentions this article on p6 http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1932126,00.asp
16:52 bsb the args to macros should always be ASTs, right?
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16:54 fglock What is the default precedence when you create a sub? (tighter than anything else?)
16:54 TimToady bsb: depends on what the "is parsed" rule returns, and the signature declares, and whether they match.
16:54 TimToady by default subs are list operators.
16:55 TimToady except ($) is still unary op, last I checked.
16:55 TimToady but that might be worth breaking...
16:55 fglock TimToady: '$'?
16:55 TimToady single scalar argument in P5-proto-speak.
16:56 bsb I had an idea about using unary macros to do haskell's comma-less, tight, currying function calls...
16:56 TimToady could be made to work.
16:57 bsb is parsed gives the macro's grammar category, right?
16:58 TimToady I believe at one time we made infix:<X> default to the same prec as infix:<+>, but lately I think we just require "is equiv" or some such.
16:59 fglock bsb: macro infix:<xxx> ... - the grammar category comes before
16:59 TimToady eh?  the grammatical category is part of the macro's name, or I'm misunderstanding your question.
16:59 putter inside a circumfix, are the trailing tokens of surrounding circumfixi still tokens?
17:00 bsb I might just slink away from that question and get to the thing that's confused me...
17:00 TimToady The inner rule has to be parameterized to know what its terminators are, if they would be confused with inner tokens.
17:01 bsb After talking to audreyt, I thought macro's arguments were always ASTs, but the macros in Prelude seem to expect normal values
17:01 TimToady but usually any unbalanced bracket could be assumed to terminate.
17:02 TimToady ASTs are certainly encouraged as the default, much as opaque objects are now the default in P6.  But we want to leave the hooks there to do something else.
17:03 bsb That means the Prelude should probably revert to subs instead of macros for now
17:04 TimToady terminator params might actually be one of the places we choose to backtrack rather than merging categories:
17:04 TimToady <%terminators> | <%expect_term>
17:05 TimToady since the merge would have to be redone on every subrule call.
17:05 fglock TimToady: you mean rules inside 'is parsed' may need to take the terminator as a parameter in order to know where to finish macthing?
17:05 bsb putter: ping
17:06 putter circumfix:<+ +>    +(3+2)+  ?
17:06 putter bsb: pong
17:07 TimToady fglock: yep, if the rule is sufficiently antisocial to want conflicting things.
17:08 TimToady though I see it's actually
17:08 bsb gaal said you know about the macos in Prelude, can they be reverted to subs?
17:08 TimToady <%terminators> | <%expect_operator> from the +...+ example.
17:08 fglock TimToady: the problem is there can be any rule inside the 'is parsed' - and then all rules would need to check is this parameter is set
17:09 fglock I mean, the macro parameter can be any rule
17:09 bsb until we have macros params that can be ASTs or normal values
17:09 TimToady yes, perhaps it's really something environmentally magical that all <%foo> just automatically track.
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17:10 fglock TimToady: ok
17:11 TimToady Anyway, for well behaved subrules, we can just assume trailing brackets for now, as long as we keep the generalization in mind.
17:12 fglock TimToady: I don't see '^' in the example Grammars - is it automatic (to match on the start of the string)
17:12 TimToady Maybe we can semi-generalize that to "stop on syntax error", but that bugs me a little, since there are real syntax errors as well as fake ones...
17:13 TimToady subrules are always anchored on the left to where their parent rule called them.
17:13 TimToady But some of them may also be marked :p to start at the current pos.
17:14 TimToady but it's possible this will turn into a token vs rule distinction on the declaration itself.
17:15 TimToady we also thought we could do smarter whitespace matching on the transition from a rule into a token as well.
17:15 fglock TimToady: is 'token' a new keyword?
17:15 TimToady conjectured.
17:16 nothingmuch joined perl6
17:17 * putter fails to parse "subrules are always anchored on the left to where their parent rule called them. BUT some of them may also be marked :p to start at the current pos."  not equivalent sentences?
17:17 TimToady Interestingly, I see a def for "token" in S06 but nothing discussing it...
17:17 nothingmuch moose
17:17 gaal wapiti
17:17 nothingmuch i need someone with good english to look over my CV and help me rephrase all these stupid sentances with an I in them
17:17 nothingmuch it looks like a vanity page
17:18 TimToady not equivalent when the subrule is called directly rather than as a subrule.
17:18 gaal where should `data CompUnit` live? I keep running into layering questions when I do things that are useful for both Prim and CodeGen
17:18 bsb nothingmuch: Just refer to yourself as "Moose"
17:18 fglock putter: :p is optional (that's not a tongue)
17:18 bsb Moose was employed for 6 months as...
17:18 nothingmuch bsb: shadaaaaap
17:18 gaal what eventually happens is that that stuff is pushed to AST.Internals, everybody's favorite catch-all
17:18 putter ah, ok
17:19 nothingmuch anyway, it's spelled Møøse
17:20 TimToady if we had a "token" keyword, it might autoanchor on both ends when called directly on a string rather than as a subrule, unlike :p which is currently specced as just the front anchor.  But it still needs some thought...
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17:21 putter is there any conjectured nomenclature for token,definition-of vs token,instance-of?  (ie, class names:)
17:21 TimToady well, if a rule is a Rule, then a token would be a Token, I expect.
17:21 nothingmuch brb
17:22 TimToady I've got to head off to $job now.
17:23 putter thanks for the puzzle answers :)
17:24 TimToady I don't know if they're answers, but maybe they're at least better questions.
17:24 TimToady &
17:24 putter bsb: re macros in Prelude,
17:25 bsb yes
17:26 putter use/require can (should? - i was just about to change it) be subs.  not because the really are, but because Parser.hs is handling making them macros (specifically, macros with an "is parsed"), as well as providing part of their implementation.
17:26 putter so the change is strictly pragmatics
17:26 putter because macros are having bug issues at the moment
17:26 putter I'm not sure that one can do the same with the rx macros
17:27 putter pondering...
17:27 fglock bbiab
17:27 putter fglock:
17:27 putter how, big a bit?  had Deal thoughts
17:27 svnbot6 r9365 | fglock++ | lrep - even more Todo
17:28 fglock putter: need to go grab forms for the phd thing ~1h
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17:28 putter k
17:29 putter ntx
17:29 putter *tnx
17:29 fglock left perl6
17:30 bsb also, as the Prelude is written, it seems to want normal args instead of asts for the macros
17:30 bsb ASTs are the default, and the syntax for the other forms is not clear yet
17:31 bsb probably just ($x is Int) in the sig
17:32 putter might work. # re rx_ things being subs
17:34 putter not normal args, strings.  unless something has changed recently (in pugs), strings are still the default.  but could add Str to the signature, as long as it doesnt break something.
17:35 bsb pugs incorrectly evaluated the macros args as a normal sub would
17:36 putter i dont understand...
17:37 bsb macro M($x) { return q:code {} }; M(say "hi"); # should do nothing
17:37 putter some specific macro, macros in general (pre yaml and subsequent breakage), macros now (apparently broken)
17:37 mj41__ joined perl6
17:37 putter AST returning macros are brand new and quite untested.
17:38 putter and audreyt is fiddling with the macro implementation.
17:38 bsb so were gaal & I
17:38 putter right
17:38 putter so nothing q:code {} does/doesnt do at the moment would surprise me :)
17:39 bsb I've found some very interesting weirdness there
17:39 putter but... what is the connection with the Prelude??  "macro's unstable, let's see if we can pull them form the Prelude for now?"
17:39 bsb Including repeated evaluations of args
17:40 bsb 2 connections: 1) unstable 2) the Prelude macros don't use the AST as default style
17:40 bsb making it had to implement that
17:40 bsb s/had/hard/
17:41 bsb That's what gaal & I were trying to do
17:42 * putter tries sub'ifying Prelude macros...
17:43 putter so what's the plan, a  macro f(Str $s){} is a string taking macro, and macro f($a){} defaults to $ast?  and either can return q:code {}?
17:44 putter the default seems odd to me, given that ast's are -much- harder to standardize and keep stable than a language spec, so there are likely to be multiple flavors of ast's, but only one flavor of string.  no?
17:46 bsb Yes, I think, to the first question
17:47 * gaal agrees with putter's observation about ASTs changing
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17:48 bsb I think the various shifting AST problem is avoided by treating them as opaque chunks for now
17:49 bsb They can be returned, spliced into q:code and $ast.perl pretty printed, perhaps $ast.as(Str) -ed too
17:50 Juerd c
17:50 Juerd s/c//
17:51 putter ok, use/require can be sub'ified.  the rx_ cannot (easily).  feel free to modify their signatures, or to rip out the parser patch which calls them (they are the beginning (no dependencies (or few, pil2js?)) of a development path which has been blocked for... well, a really long time (>1/2year)).
17:52 putter ripping would probably speed up parsing too. ;)
17:52 putter oh, hmm, i wonder if some of the rx functionality is now present only in the macros...
17:54 bsb I haven't delved into the dependencies, wanted to check here first
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17:55 putter re functionality, it looks like at most a modifier might be lost, because something has ended up depending on rx_ conditioning them.
17:56 Lorn joined perl6
17:56 putter that cover it?
17:58 bsb I'm having weird Prelude+YAML issues so I'll have to get back to you
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18:04 * putter sighs.  a couple of weeks of work, most of it no-side-benefit pugsbug dodging, and the entire net result has been 1/2 year of slower parsing. :(
18:04 putter bbiab
18:05 TimToady putter: on Str vs AST default, the thing is, you can potentially track tree transformations bidirectionally with ASTs, but as soon as you go to straight text, you're throwing away information you might need later to do, say, syntax highlighting or really good error messages.  Text macros are just source filters writ small...
18:07 ruz joined perl6
18:07 fglock joined perl6
18:08 bsb and unevaluated args is part of what make macros special
18:08 bsb gotta go, later &
18:11 fglock putter: back
18:11 p2501_ joined perl6
18:28 justatheory joined perl6
18:34 audreyt safely arrived to Leo's.
18:34 fglock audreyt: hi!
18:35 audreyt hey!
18:35 audreyt I've grokked lrep
18:35 audreyt amazing work!
18:36 fglock audreyt: thanks - specially coming from you!
18:36 audreyt :)
18:36 audreyt we need better interfaces
18:37 PerlJam What is lrep?
18:37 fglock audreyt: interfaces?
18:37 fglock PerlJam: misc/pX/Common/lrep - very deep in the tree :)
18:38 TimToady stands for Least Recursively Expressed Perl, or some such :)
18:38 audreyt fglock: like, take p6rule.pl and promote it to Perl6::Rule
18:38 PerlJam fglock: does that mean that lrep isn't amenable to a sound-bite-ish description or just that I should read the code?
18:38 PerlJam :-)
18:38 audreyt its README states that it stands for Lister Rubbish Eclectic Pathologically
18:38 dduncan it may just be a transient error on my own machine, but building the latest pugs , generating prelude failed on internal error, WEAK object entered, saying report to haskell team
18:39 audreyt dduncan: yes, I'm fixing it
18:39 dduncan okay
18:39 fglock TimToady: thanks - that fits exactly
18:39 audreyt PerlJam: it's like the pugs in the first ~2 months -- but written in P5
18:39 dduncan so if you see it, then its not just my machine
18:39 audreyt PerlJam: but armed with Rules for parsing instead of Parsec
18:39 PerlJam audreyt: ah.  Now that's awesome!
18:40 PerlJam trebly so!
18:40 Juerd audreyt: That's a first generation backronym ;)
18:40 audreyt fglock: by "better interface" I mean "develop each part in the style of reusable CPAN modules"
18:41 audreyt fglock: I imagine a lot of perl5 folks will like to deploy the Rules iterator engine, even if they don't care about p6 in general
18:41 audreyt with luck it may even make into one of the Perl 5.10 "feature.pm" sets
18:41 nothingmuch joined perl6
18:41 nothingmuch moosen
18:41 audreyt use feature "rules"; # enables Regexp-Engine-Replace
18:42 audreyt (or just enables rx// quoting)
18:42 fglock audreyt: oh, that makes sense - pmurias is helping with that, and putter is actually implementing the ultra-low-level stuff
18:43 TimToady (though rx'' already quotes...)
18:43 fglock audreyt: I'd like to have more info on how Pugs separates the module roles, so that I can follow the same structure - does it makes sense, or should it be reinvented?
18:43 mauke Bad name after rx' at -e line 1.
18:44 audreyt m'' quotes, yeah
18:44 audreyt but I don't know, I sorta like the idea of a separate rx// for Rules
18:44 audreyt instead of lexically tweak what m// means
18:44 audreyt (this is in p5)
18:44 TimToady right, I'm not against tweaking P5.
18:45 putter back
18:45 audreyt well, sure, seeing that you are the mad tweaker here... :)
18:45 audreyt putter: hey
18:45 putter hi
18:46 fglock audreyt: Perl6::Rules is taken. How about Perl6::Lrep::*
18:47 putter (hmm, if ast nodes stringify to code, are they source macros?;)   and overload ~, and...
18:47 audreyt I imagine Perl6::Rule is not taken
18:47 audreyt Perl6::Grammar neither
18:47 fglock audreyt: Perl6::Grammar is much better
18:47 audreyt Perl6::Grammar then
18:48 audreyt my idea is that the runtime parts -- the part that will _stay_ in Perl5 even when we have full perl6boot -- belongs in Perl6::* namespace
18:48 fglock audreyt: so there are no problems if Perl 6 depends on CPAN perl5 modules?
18:48 audreyt I think it should depend on as many module as possible.
18:49 audreyt <- SVK, Jifty, Kwiki developer
18:49 putter Please please please can we not go down the p5 naming route of naming something which will inevitably have multiple implementations by a generic term?  Perl::Editor.  Perl6::Rules.   Class::Multimethods. arg.
18:49 audreyt putter: you are for prefix, then?
18:49 fglock audreyt: It is ready then :) just kidding -
18:50 fglock how about a plug-in style API for parser, optimizer, etc
18:50 audreyt putter: something like Pugs::Grammar or PX::Grammar?
18:50 putter Perl6::Rules::Foo or Perl6::Grammar::Foo is great.  but the "hey, Perl6::Rules is taken, so let's call it Perl6::Rule" is part of what makes CPAN a mess.
18:50 putter (pet peeve;)
18:51 audreyt putter: "Perl6::Rules is taken, let's write damian to take over it"
18:51 audreyt (would be my first reaction)
18:51 nothingmuch i think so too
18:51 fglock audreyt, putter: agreed - Perl6::Grammar::Lrep for the current implementation - but the main program should use a plug-in struct so that anyone can do it's own implementation
18:51 nothingmuch IIRC p6::rules was sort of abandoned
18:51 PerlJam I wonder if most of what is current in Perl6:: should really be in Perl6Prototype::  (not that that'd ever happen)
18:52 PerlJam Some if it is just proof-of-concept stuff while other parts are "this is useable"
18:53 Juerd Much of CPAN naming makes no sense, or doesn't make sense anymore.
18:53 fglock 'p6 --grammar=lrep --emit=yaml'
18:53 putter I'm not suggesting Perl6::Rules go away.   I'm hoping for a naming scheme which doesn't leave people searching for modules in their current state of "there's an obvious name for what I want to do.  indeed, there is a module with that name.  but I want a different implementation.  let me pull out my thesaurus and stemmer and attempt to find them".
18:53 nothingmuch Array::Heap2 is my fav
18:53 Juerd The "hierarchy" itself is broken in so many ways, that you can't really expect people to follow it, I think.
18:53 fglock no need to go away - Perl6::Rules::Lrep is free
18:53 FurnaceBoy yep.
18:54 nothingmuch Array::Heap doesn't exist, but the name is parked by Jon Orwant iirc
18:54 putter err, s/I'm not suggesting Perl6::Rules go away./I'm not suggesting Perl6::Rules not go away./ ;)
18:54 nothingmuch as one of the MAPL spinoff modules that was not quite finished
18:55 fglock anyway, Perl6::Rules may actually be useable - and Parse::RecDescent too
18:55 fglock all we need is a plug-in API
18:56 TimToady It seems to me that Perl6:: is the prefix that indicates various modules that are *not* expected to interoperate.  Maybe a different prefix would indicate modules that are expected to interoperate.
18:56 fglock or a base Class
18:56 putter Perl6::Rules should become the root of an organizational hierarchy, not some specific implementation.  my $0.02.
18:57 fglock TimToady: Lrep::* / Pugs::Lrep::* ?
18:57 Juerd Interoperate:: :)
18:57 Juerd IO::, in short ;)
18:57 TimToady dunno.  Just Perl6 has Acme-ish connotations at the moment.
18:57 Juerd TimToady: Indeed. And that affects the image of Perl 6 too.
18:57 audreyt I really think Pugs::Runtime or something like it is more accurate than Lrep :)
18:58 audreyt (as the module name, not the project name)
18:58 fglock we can safely hack on Acme::Perl6::* and nobody would notice
18:58 audreyt Bundle::Meta::Acme::Perl6
18:58 fglock audreyt: Pugs::Runtime ++
18:59 TimToady Pugsy::
18:59 Juerd TimToady: I personally think it would be good to ask the Perl6:: authors of modules that are just proofs of concepts (anything using source filters), to rename their modules. On the other hand, changing names is dangerous...
18:59 fglock audreyt: except that it includes compile time
18:59 audreyt or, hell, there's no Pugs::* anything yet
18:59 audreyt so let's just use that
18:59 audreyt Pugs::Grammar, Pugs::Optimizer
18:59 fglock audreyt: ++
18:59 Juerd audreyt: And maybe, Pugs::Prelude?
18:59 audreyt aye
18:59 Juerd audreyt: Which would be nice on CPAN, I think :)
19:00 audreyt yeah.
19:00 fglock audreyt: how about the plug-in thing?
19:00 audreyt fglock: follow the Module::Pluggable tradition
19:00 audreyt Pugs::Optimizer::Plugins::ThisPluginName
19:00 nothingmuch what about freepan?
19:00 nothingmuch isn't that singular Plugin?
19:00 audreyt right.
19:00 audreyt so, what to do with lib/pugs/run.pod ?
19:01 audreyt and hack.pod
19:01 putter oh, yeah, before I turn into a pumpkin, potentially netless for a few days, that's my main reaction to Deal,
19:01 nothingmuch so, no english volunteers?
19:01 audreyt can we merge both back to Pugs.pod (for now)?
19:01 fglock audreyt: Pugs::Doc(s)
19:01 audreyt Pugs::Doc::Run
19:01 putter Perl6 alpha will be mostly written in p6.  pugs+pil2js+pX+whatever.
19:02 putter That p6 mostly doesnt exist yet.
19:02 putter If it existed, it would actually not be tremendously difficult to do new backends, even from scratch.
19:03 fglock putter: not only backends, but compilers, optimizers
19:03 putter Now, when doing a backend, you have to simultaneously write that p6, which also means figuring out/disambiguating/making up a p6 spec.  Which all take far more time than actually doing the backend. ;)
19:03 nothingmuch you're all mean
19:03 nothingmuch you don't love me at all
19:04 kolibrie nothingmuch: we just don't think we speak English
19:04 * nothingmuch bops kolibrie
19:04 * kolibrie ducks
19:04 * nothingmuch kicks kolibrie while he's on the floor
19:04 kolibrie nothingmuch: url?
19:05 fglock nothingmuch: you mean - about the CV?
19:05 nothingmuch fglock: yes
19:05 putter fglock: right, not just backend.  parser, compiler, emitter, runtime, object space.  the whole thing.
19:06 * kolibrie catches url offline
19:06 svnbot6 r9366 | audreyt++ | * rename pugs::run and pugs::hack to Pugs::Doc::Run
19:06 svnbot6 r9366 | audreyt++ |   and Pugs::Doc::Hack, for the Great Pugs Hierarchy.
19:06 audreyt fglock: okay. so move pX things over -- for non-perl6-pugs-specific things, like the iterator engine
19:06 fglock nothingmuch: I can help you with portuguese
19:06 audreyt you can still call it Pugs::Grammar and put into lib/Pugs/Grammar.pm
19:06 fglock audreyt: which /dir?
19:07 audreyt or if you want to distinguish components more
19:07 audreyt lib/Pugs/Runtime/Grammar.pm
19:07 nothingmuch fglock: my sister might like help with her portuguese
19:07 audreyt or if you are not unhappy with the Perl6 acmeness
19:07 audreyt then lib/Perl6/Grammar.pm
19:07 putter The drive spec schrodinger collapse with pugs and pil2js and pilrun has been great.  but i suggest at this point, it's no longer the optimal path.  if we could get some folks simply nailing down the spec, that would free up implementation efforts to simply implement.  
19:07 fglock audreyt: ok!
19:08 TimToady oops.
19:08 putter nailing down spec == reading spec, making up all the questions you can think of, writing them down, getting them answered or approximated, and writing the answers.
19:08 audreyt (aka, ghost-writing)
19:08 TimToady Entirely coincidental, but I'm outta here.  (To see the dentist, again.)
19:08 audreyt rofl
19:09 audreyt TimToady: see ya :)
19:09 TimToady later, let's all have the appropriate amount of fun :/  &
19:09 putter day1 9:00am of pugs alpha development: write down object hierarchy.  day 1 9:15 of pugs alpha development: realize one doesnt exist yet, and shut down alpha development to write one. ;)
19:10 putter bye
19:10 PerlJam writing a spec isn't development?  :)
19:10 putter audreyt ghosting ++
19:11 audreyt I'll bbiab too, dinner with leo
19:12 audreyt fglock: continue in this vein, maybe docs/Perl6/* should be moved to lib/Perl6/*
19:12 audreyt but I'll ponder about it after dinner
19:12 audreyt see you in ~30min &
19:12 putter audreyt: so there's a question, what would help your ghosting?  how can warm bodies help?
19:15 * nothingmuch ponders going to tea guru's house for tea
19:18 putter PerlJam: writing language spec has very different characteristics (time frame, who needs to be involved, how) then language implementing.  their is unavoidably overlap, even in mature languages.  but right now there's too much "oh, you want an On Button" thought only happening when an implementation tries to do things.
19:19 putter "tea guru"?
19:19 nothingmuch he's this guy i know
19:19 putter ah :)
19:19 nothingmuch who likes tea
19:19 nothingmuch and knows about it more than I do
19:20 PerlJam nothingmuch: it's odd that you would mention tea since I'm sitting here sipping some right now  :)
19:20 netanya_goy joined perl6
19:21 nothingmuch PerlJam: what kind?
19:21 nothingmuch ooh! rain! finally
19:21 nothingmuch we had a bit of it earlier
19:21 fglock putter: re ping 2hr ago - how about the Deal thing
19:21 putter oh, that was it ;)
19:22 nothingmuch putter: so do we have a deal?
19:22 fglock :)
19:22 putter main point is biggest current task, and bottleneck on all projects, is the absence of p6 code.
19:22 putter :)
19:22 nothingmuch yes, i agree
19:23 fglock putter: "absence of p6 code" = no real world things to try the spec on?
19:24 putter one of the things I like about lrep, is, for example, at some point the p5 rules stuff will mature to the point where I'll turn around and say, "great, I need a working p6 rules grammar, anyone have one?".
19:25 fglock putter: "I need a working p5 grammar" - after some years
19:25 putter "absence of p6 code" == no one has written a grammar for p6 rules, in a real p6 style (ie, terms, etc), which seems likely the easiest style for new implementations to boostrap.  nor p6 parser grammar.  nor object space.
19:26 fglock btw - I need a working p6 rules grammar, anyone have one?
19:26 putter lol :)
19:27 fglock object space = the set of Classes ("high level prims") ?
19:27 putter caveat that bootstrap may become less important once some p6 rules parser, any p6 rules parser, can do a p6 rules ast.  then the easiest path to new implementations might be to just clone the ast, and do an emitter.
19:27 putter yes
19:28 fglock putter: exactly - I was discussing this with audreyt a few hours ago
19:28 putter the "day 1 9am" wasn't entirely a joke.  the pilrun2 development process looked a lot like that.
19:28 fglock putter: and I'll start working on it asap (but not now - I want to do the bootstrapping stuff)
19:29 putter :)
19:29 Southen joined perl6
19:29 fglock putter: that's why I need a plug-in structure
19:30 fglock putter: so that people can try out different grammars, etc
19:31 putter so, anyone one want to imagine they have a working p6 system, which just happens to be unavailable at the moment, and sit down to write the p6 object space (in p6 of course).
19:31 fglock putter: I really need ideas for inter-module communication API - possibly just using OO is ok
19:31 putter ?
19:31 putter "?" was "anyone?" .  re plugin,
19:31 arcady2 joined perl6
19:32 fglock putter: parser <=> optimizer <=> emitter
19:32 fglock putter: re anyone - people have been using parse::RecDescent for years - at least these people...
19:32 fglock putter: although I never used it :)
19:33 fglock putter: re sit down and write - yes!
19:34 putter one possibility would be to focus on lrep, thinking modular simply as good design, and then worry about plugginness later.  just because doing a pluggin api can make it harder to alter design, so can be costly if it happens too soon
19:34 fglock 'p6 --object-space=putter ...'
19:34 fglock putter: ok
19:36 * putter wants a file which starts  type Any... continues through class Num... and multi infix:<~~>... and ends with $*PUGS_WELCOME_MESSAGE = "...".  ;)
19:38 fglock putter: how about writing an example file? it really helps knowing what people want :)
19:38 fglock lrep/p6object_space.p6
19:38 putter there is a nice table saying what ~~ means.  been there and stable for a long time.  p6 is a nice language.  why dont we have a p6 version of that table?
19:39 stevan joined perl6
19:39 fglock putter: is it Haskell? reusing is good
19:39 audreyt stevan: hi!
19:39 putter re example file, good idea.  really good idea.
19:39 justatheory joined perl6
19:39 stevan hey audreyt
19:40 audreyt http://search.cpan.org/~nwclark/perl-5.8.7/pod/perlsyn.pod#Smart_Matching_in_Detail
19:40 audreyt er I mean
19:40 audreyt http://search.cpan.org/dist/perl-5.9.3/pod/perlsyn.pod#Smart_matching_in_detail
19:40 putter hi stevan.  just now flaming the lack of a p6 object space written in p6.  or operators.  or operator parsers.  or... most everything.  we've remarkably little p6 code.
19:41 audreyt stevan: you missed the Great Namespace Acquisition :)
19:41 stevan putter: have you looked in the perl5/Perl6-ObjectSpace ?
19:41 * stevan leaves for a few hours and all hell breaks loose :P
19:41 putter lol
19:42 audreyt stevan: the pX/ie/lrep code will now move to lib/Pugs/*
19:42 audreyt as in, Pugs::Grammar for the grammar engine
19:42 audreyt and whatever code that supports the p6 runtime can be moved from perl5/Perl6-* into lib/Pugs/*
19:42 stevan putter: if you look in the Perl6-ObjectSpace, I think it is Bootstrap.pm file, it has s-expr and p6 versions of many metamodel methods inside POD comments
19:42 audreyt we're doing a CPAN module now :)
19:43 audreyt named, incidentally, Pugs.pm
19:43 stevan audreyt: nice :)
19:43 fglock audreyt: lib/Pugs == /lib/Pugs ?
19:43 fglock ok
19:43 audreyt fglock: yes.
19:44 * putter attempts to read lrep/p6object_space.p6.  not found.  svn up's.  still not found.  realizes it was just a name.  very sad.
19:44 audreyt putter: you need a time machine
19:44 fglock audreyt: what goes in Pugs.pm ? - who is "we?" :)
19:45 audreyt fglock: we as in, people who commit to lib/Pugs
19:45 audreyt fglock: Pugs.pm should probably be the toplevel API switches
19:45 audreyt use Pugs; Pugs->parse("...some perl 6 code here...")?
19:46 audreyt or maybe a new environment allocated with Pugs->new; ?
19:47 fglock audreyt: ok! - you are too fast - I was still thinking how to move things :)
19:47 svnbot6 r9367 | fglock++ | * p6object_space.p6
19:47 audreyt putter: see? time machine consists of "sleep 180;"
19:47 fglock audreyt: a new environment would be nice - people may want to compile a different language, whatever
19:48 audreyt *nod*
19:48 audreyt I'd like to have a switch that allows writing perl6 code within a perl5 module
19:48 fglock and the parameters to new can be: lib=>[], parser=>[] ...
19:48 putter stevan: yes, but.  I want a clean p6 implementation which assumes the existance of a complete p6 implementation.  " putter wants a file which starts type Any... continues through class Num... and multi infix:<~~>... and ends with $*PUGS_WELCOME_MESSAGE = "..."."
19:49 fglock audreyt: I can make an Inline:: thing
19:49 putter lol # time machine
19:49 audreyt fglock: we already ahve lib/Inline/Pugs
19:49 audreyt fglock: but I want a srcfilter
19:50 fglock audreyt: Inline::Pugs::PP for PurePerl
19:50 audreyt fglock: but I think the Inline API sucks
19:50 audreyt (with all due respect to ingy)
19:50 putter (oh very much yes)
19:51 audreyt { use Perl-6.0; ... write some perl code ... }
19:51 audreyt is the API I'd like
19:51 fglock audreyt: how about eval( '...', {lang=> 'Pugs' } )
19:51 putter (though it exists, and EngineReplace wouldnt exist without it, which forgives many sins)
19:51 audreyt it's even easy
19:52 audreyt just have a Perl.pm
19:52 audreyt with import that detects "-6.0"
19:52 audreyt or rather -6
19:52 putter yes, it is:)  # easy
19:52 * putter loves %^H.  which he knew about it years ago.
19:52 putter s/which/wishes/
19:52 audreyt it's extremely gonzo though, having Perl.pm -- it's like the ultimate violation of CPAN namespace guidelines :)
19:52 putter lol
19:53 fglock audreyt: isn't it 'use v6' ? --> 'v6.pm'
19:53 putter yes
19:53 audreyt no, that gets caught in the lexer
19:53 audreyt S11 has the
19:53 audreyt use Perl-6.0
19:53 audreyt form
19:53 putter really... oh, right
19:54 audreyt "use v6" is short for "use Perl-6" according to S11.
19:54 putter (i think the question was in perl5 space)
19:54 audreyt (I think we should have a p6 file that's both valid p5 and p6)
19:54 audreyt makes it easier to switch to pure-perl6 boot
19:55 putter http://www.vendian.org/mncharity/dir3/multilang/file/
19:55 Juerd That reminds me (I see "both" and "boot" close to eachother, which makes "booth")
19:55 audreyt so, in order to not upset the CPAN police
19:55 audreyt use Pugs::Perl-6.0; # maybe something like this.
19:55 putter agreed
19:56 Juerd audreyt: rafl and I had a half idea about maybe trying to organize an entire Perl 6 track on froscon.
19:56 putter use Perl6 6-0; ?
19:56 putter err, 6.0
19:56 * fglock head explode - tooo many days brainstorming
19:56 Juerd audreyt: As we all know that there's lots and lots to tell about Perl 6, pugs, parrot, etcetera.
19:56 audreyt Juerd: nod
19:56 audreyt putter:
19:56 audreyt use Perl6.0;
19:56 audreyt I think that works.
19:57 Juerd audreyt: You have a good overview - do you think other (non-Perl) people would be entertained? Many subprojects are interesting for other developers and software fanatics too.
19:57 audreyt or, if we don't care about the CPAN police, we can go with "use Perl-6.0" -- which already exists on CPAN in version 0.03 ( http://search.cpan.org/~bmorrow/PerlInterp-0.03/Perl.pm )-- and will be usurped ;)
19:57 audreyt Juerd: I think so, yeah
19:59 putter re overall package naming, it could be good for someone, anyone, to sit down an write a strawman story about what goes where.  then paste it, and we can go from there.
19:59 Juerd audreyt: Could you use your blog to plug the idea, and to ask people who think they can say something interesting in the form of a talk, to contact me?
19:59 audreyt Juerd: I can if you supply me more details than this
19:59 audreyt (bounce me an email, perhaps)
20:00 putter could someone drop audreyt's link to the ~~ table, and "implement it in p6" task, in TASKS?  tnx.  just about out of time.
20:00 fglock audreyt: re CPAN - will Pugs and Perl6::Pugs be separate packages?
20:00 audreyt putter: nothingmuch had one.
20:00 audreyt fglock: Perl6::Pugs will get renamed to Pugs.
20:00 Juerd audreyt: Will do tomorrow
20:01 Juerd audreyt: tia
20:01 fglock audreyt: but isn't perl5 pugs have a much shorter release time? (binary Pugs is just too big)
20:01 audreyt putter: it's in docs/Hierarchy.pod -- but we'll see
20:02 audreyt putter: it needs some reformat -- I'll work on a story
20:02 audreyt fglock: not sure what you mean here
20:02 putter cheers.  may not have net for a couple of days.  back by the 12th.
20:02 putter re story, awesome :)
20:03 audreyt fglock: you mean the tarball at 2+MB
20:03 audreyt is too big
20:03 audreyt or that we have too many tests to releng for each release?
20:03 putter have... more than the anticipated amount of fun ;)
20:03 putter &
20:03 audreyt "Unexpected fun encountered. Continue? [Yy]"
20:04 putter joined perl6
20:04 justatheory joined perl6
20:04 fglock audreyt: I mean, the self-hosting version will be very small - it could be downloaded separately (maybe just bundle it in a sub-package)
20:04 fglock audreyt: :)
20:04 putter just want to say - this has been/is really a blast.  audreyt, everyone, my thanks :) &
20:05 audreyt putter++ # started this pX revolution thing
20:05 stevan wow,.. if putter had this much fun,.. I need to backlog
20:05 fglock putter: :)
20:05 audreyt so, I think gobby sessions are in order. :)
20:05 fglock gobby?
20:05 audreyt (last time I SEE'ed with stevan to get ObjSpace v0 nailed down)
20:06 audreyt seems we can really use something like that now
20:06 audreyt (or tomorrow)
20:06 audreyt http://gobby.0x539.de/
20:07 audreyt so, for inlining: I think we go with "use Inline::Perl-6.0"
20:07 audreyt but instead of using the Inline API
20:07 audreyt just allow it lexically
20:08 fglock audreyt: shoudl I install it? still have ~3hours
20:08 audreyt fglock: sure!
20:08 fglock ok!
20:08 audreyt but hm, ingy may get upset with this abuse of Inline namespace
20:08 integral Filter::Perl6 :-/
20:08 audreyt use Pugs-inline; say "Hello!";
20:10 audreyt integral: yeah, that's canonical, isn't it :/
20:10 fglock re p5/p6 file naming - lib6/*.pl or lib/*.p6
20:12 audreyt fglock: lib6/ seems more accurate
20:12 audreyt lib6/*.pm even.
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20:16 fglock audreyt: gobby downloaded...
20:17 fglock audreyt: create session?
20:18 audreyt fglock: do you have a public-facing IP?
20:19 fglock audreyt: I can get one, but it I'll have to reinstall - can I just connect to you instead?
20:20 audreyt hm
20:20 audreyt sec
20:20 fglock audreyt: I'm moving to an external ip - if it works, all is good
20:21 audreyt try connect to perlcabal.org
20:21 audreyt hm nvm, it doesn't work
20:21 audreyt I'll wait for you
20:22 fglock audreyt: how do I open my X - xhost something...
20:22 audreyt er, no idea
20:23 audreyt Juerd: I'm opening up port 6522 on feather for gobby.
20:23 audreyt fglock: try connect to perlcabal.org first?
20:24 fglock audreyt: entered in feathers gobby already
20:24 audreyt try reconnect
20:24 fglock audreyt: yup - I connected through ssh
20:24 audreyt oh ok
20:24 Juerd audreyt: Opening up unused ports is always okay if they're > 1024 and not in between 8000 and 8250 :)
20:24 fglock audreyt: it works - very slowly
20:24 mj41___ joined perl6
20:25 fglock audreyt: should I connect from my local computer's gobby to perlcabal? doing
20:25 audreyt yes.
20:26 audreyt (all #perl6 folks are welcome to join)
20:26 fglock audreyt: it dies (ubuntu + debians gobby)
20:27 audreyt 0.3.0?
20:27 fglock 0.2.2
20:27 fglock I'll try from unstable
20:27 Juerd fglock: 0.3.0 is in dapper
20:27 Juerd I'm apt-get installing it atm
20:27 fglock dapper?
20:30 fglock bbiab - meeting
20:31 Juerd fglock: Dapper Drake, the next version after Breezy Badger
20:31 Juerd fglock: Will be released next month
20:31 fglock back :)
20:31 mj41___ hello, are there lib\Pugs and lib\pugs in the repository? .... i can't svn up :-(
20:31 mj41___ win32
20:32 mj41___ object of the same name already exists
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20:33 rindolf Hi all!
20:33 rindolf I'm no longer looking for kane-xs - he already replied to me.
20:33 rindolf Heh.
20:33 rindolf kane-xs++
20:34 rindolf In any case, from what I understand in Perl6 "," has tighter precendence than "=".
20:34 rindolf So why does my @a = 1,2,3; puts (1,2,3) into @a ?
20:34 rindolf audreyt: here?
20:35 Juerd rindolf: See S03
20:35 rindolf Juerd: Synposis 03?
20:35 Juerd rindolf: Yes.
20:35 rindolf Juerd: OK.
20:36 Juerd rindolf: After all the investigation needed to write a freshmeat article on Perl 6, you already know such things.
20:36 nothingmuch audreyt: ping
20:38 dduncan fyi, the newer r9367 builds for me
20:40 rindolf Juerd: do you mean http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2004/03/18/synopsis3.html ?
20:40 fglock audreyt: no way in ubuntu - trying again in windows...
20:40 Juerd rindolf: I mean the current synopsis 3, not that of years ago.
20:41 rindolf Juerd: ah, I see.
20:42 Juerd rindolf: Let me help you: http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/syn/S03.html
20:48 audreyt ouch, netsplit
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20:54 Limbic_Region Win32 can't svn up ATM
20:54 Limbic_Region hmmm - not sure why I am telling anyone this - it looks like the universe is bouncing
20:54 audreyt joined perl6
20:54 integral hmm, I see
20:54 integral doesn't something like deleting the dir, and syncing up fix stuff?
20:54 Limbic_Region integral - usually
20:55 integral oh, my mistake, there's still both
20:55 Limbic_Region but not in this case - whatever the problem is is still in the rep
20:55 integral hmm, I think I can just svk rm .../lib/pugs
20:55 jiing_ joined perl6
20:56 nothingmuch yay! spam spam spam spam!
20:56 Limbic_Region well - last time this happened I kissed audreyt and she made it all better
20:56 integral Limbic_Region: fixed!  or at least deleted.  any more problems with that should be on your end now hopefully :)
20:56 nothingmuch ciao guys, i'm off for tea
20:56 nothingmuch thanks for much patience WRT the CV
20:56 * Limbic_Region kisses integral
20:57 svnbot6 r9369 | bsmith++ | Deleting empty lib/pugs directory now that files are in lib/Pugs (for the benefit of win32 users)
20:58 FurnaceBoy yep, pugs + Pugs will break case insensitive svn users
20:58 FurnaceBoy deleting one or t'other is the right fix
20:59 FurnaceBoy that is, if you care about them. ;)
20:59 audreyt joined perl6
21:00 mj41___ thanks
21:02 audreyt whew, netsplit over
21:02 audreyt gobby session still going on on perlcabal.org
21:03 Steve_p gobby?
21:06 audreyt http://gobby.0x539.de/
21:06 audreyt multiplayer notepad
21:06 audreyt a bit better than IRC (multiplayer cat)for design sessions
21:07 Steve_p Ahhhh
21:07 Limbic_Region jZed was working on something like that - wonder what became of it
21:07 mj41____ joined perl6
21:08 audreyt I think gobby is Good Enough (tm)
21:08 Steve_p If we can get it hooked to an EVE client, we could get schwern working on pugs for 18 hours at a time ;)
21:09 audreyt schwern implemented $*CWD in Pugs.
21:10 audreyt but 18hrs at a time... wow :)
21:10 avar joined perl6
21:13 Steve_p audreyt, I could have sworn I've seen you working on pugs for nearly that long a few days :)
21:13 audreyt yeah :)
21:18 szbalint audreyt: oh, .at? You're in the neighbourhood :)
21:21 stevan_ joined perl6
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21:28 audreyt szbalint: :)
21:41 mj41______ joined perl6
21:42 audreyt <- working with fglock now on Pugs::Grammar::Rule API
21:42 audreyt <- also working with LeTo now on getting ParrotObject work with perl6 ::Proto objects
21:43 ruz joined perl6
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21:51 fglock audreyt: ping
21:51 audreyt fglock: pong
21:51 fglock I'm trying to reconnect...
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21:56 svnbot6 r9370 | pmurias++ | --format xml implemented using XML::Generator
21:56 svnbot6 r9370 | pmurias++ | Data::Dumper not used in p6compiler.pl
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22:14 svnbot6 r9371 | audreyt++ | * misc/pX/Common/lrep/Notes-Pugs.pm - draft gobby meeting notes about
22:14 svnbot6 r9371 | audreyt++ |   how to proceed the Grand Move from /misc/pX/Common/lrep to /lib/Pugs/*
22:14 svnbot6 r9372 | audreyt++ | * last-second edits from fglock.
22:22 audreyt_ joined perl6
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22:31 Alias_ seen audreyt
22:31 Alias_ (you guys really need to get a bot)
22:31 Alias_ (that deals with such queries implicitly)
22:32 fglock Alias_: audreyt is not online
22:32 Alias_ fglock: Yep, purl told me. Arrived at leo's a few hours ago, so I imagine she won't be around for another 8 hours or so
22:33 fglock Alias_: I'd like a "who's online" button - the irc's one doesn't mean anything
22:33 fglock yup
22:34 fglock audreyt++ accept new ideas fast
22:35 Alias_ You killed her
22:36 fglock no, she quit because of no new ideas to keep her connected
22:38 SamB joined perl6
22:39 FurnaceBoy hey, I'm still connected but I haven't had  a new idea in years
22:39 Alias_ AWAY WITH YOU!
22:40 Alias_ left perl6
22:40 fglock Alias_ away-ed herself?
22:44 Muable joined perl6
22:45 fglock .oO( people all quit about the same time, even if they are in different timezones )
23:02 justatheory joined perl6
23:04 fglock the more I try to explain lrep, the more complicated it looks :(
23:04 nothingmuch joined perl6
23:05 fglock nothingmuch: hi!
23:05 nothingmuch hola
23:06 fglock I'm trying to explain lrep internals in misc/pX/Common/lrep/Notes-Pugs.pm - but it is much harder than I thought
23:07 Juerd Heh.
23:07 ruz joined perl6
23:07 Juerd Asked my dad on the phone if he could disconnect the network cable from my computer.
23:07 Juerd "I can't find your computer. Where did you put it?"
23:07 avar joined perl6
23:07 Juerd But I could still ping it, so it couldn't be stolen.
23:08 fglock Juerd: login and make it beep
23:08 Juerd He ignored my Mac mini on his search for my computer.
23:08 Juerd He thought it was some peripheral device :)
23:08 nothingmuch fglock: was that for me?
23:08 Juerd It's too small!
23:08 mj41_______ joined perl6
23:10 fglock nothingmuch: maybe - just talking to "irc" - whoever is there :)
23:10 nothingmuch ah
23:10 fglock nothingmuch: Juerd is doing the same
23:11 * nothingmuch will try to join in the fun in a few minutes ;-)
23:11 nothingmuch then I could also talk to nothing in particular
23:11 fglock nothingmuch: talk about the CV thing
23:11 nothingmuch ah
23:11 nothingmuch my cv is now on my website
23:11 nothingmuch http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/
23:12 Juerd fglock: Re making it beep: couldn't do that - it beeps through external sound.
23:12 fglock nothingmuch: cool - now you've joined the fun
23:12 Juerd 00:10 < fglock> nothingmuch: maybe - just talking to "irc" - whoever is there :)
23:12 Juerd Talking to irc rocks.
23:13 Juerd If there's something you want to say, pick a channel and start talking. Works well.
23:13 fglock :)
23:13 Juerd I sometimes wonder how people without IRC do that. I wonder what to do if I'm without IRC and want to tell something.
23:13 Juerd (When alone)
23:14 Juerd nothingmuch: Are the cyan borders around certain things in your CV intentional?
23:15 nothingmuch Juerd: no
23:15 nothingmuch oh wait
23:15 Juerd They distract, turn combined colour/bw printers into their slow mode, and hurt eyes :)
23:15 nothingmuch it's hyperlinks, i guess
23:15 nothingmuch eek
23:15 Juerd There are no hyperlinks in paper.
23:15 integral hmm, I can't see those on os X preview
23:15 nothingmuch try clicking them
23:15 nothingmuch pdf has hyperlinks
23:15 Juerd nothingmuch: My reader is ghostscript
23:16 nothingmuch ah
23:16 nothingmuch err, i'll make you a .ps?
23:16 Juerd I can do that myself
23:16 Juerd But thank you
23:18 wolverian I can't see cyan either
23:18 Juerd nothingmuch: http://search.cpan.org/~nuffy is incomplete, postfix another /.
23:19 nothingmuch Juerd: the hyperlink is "correct"
23:19 nothingmuch i just think that without the trailing slash it looks kind of better
23:19 nothingmuch i tried both and went on a gut feeling
23:19 nothingmuch but since then the formatting has changed
23:19 nothingmuch i'll try to twiddle it
23:20 Juerd nothingmuch: It's not, but the server end is forgiving enough to send you a Location: header.
23:21 nothingmuch the hyperlink is
23:21 nothingmuch \href{http://search.cpan.org/~nuffin/}{http://search.cpan.org/$\sim$nuffin}.
23:21 nothingmuch that's the source
23:21 Juerd Awwh
23:21 Juerd Then the text is just misleading.
23:21 Juerd :)
23:21 Juerd I always consider CVs to be paper documents.
23:21 Juerd It makes many things easier, including comparisons.
23:22 obra When candidates submit resumes in something other than ascii or HTML, I'm less likely to open them.
23:22 obra PDF is also generally ok, but somewhat less ideal.
23:23 Juerd obra: I'm used seeing most in PDF
23:23 Juerd I prefer PDF because that includes some of the submitter's design thoughts or skills.
23:23 obra When we ask for "not word" and they still send word...Well, it's not an automatic bitbucket.
23:23 obra But it makes me sad
23:23 Juerd If they use TeX with default settings, that says a lot about the person, for example.
23:23 obra were I looking at a designer who did print stuff, I'd want to see their handywork ;)
23:24 Juerd If they send anything in Comic Sans MS, that does too :)
23:24 FurnaceBoy <obra>When we ask for "not word" and they still send word...Well, it's not an automatic bitbucket.
23:24 FurnaceBoy maybe it should be -- the most basic IQ test...
23:25 FurnaceBoy agree @ Juerd
23:25 Juerd If someone chooses plain text (ASCII is a bit too limiting perhaps) without previous communication with indicating that that is desired, than that information by itself is useful.
23:25 Juerd s/, than/, then/
23:25 fglock obra: would you take a look at /misc/pX/Common/lrep/Deal.txt - with "project leader hat"
23:25 Juerd Whether these are positive or negative depends on the job, of course.
23:25 Juerd Default TeX is perfect for programmers: they should be lazy.
23:25 fglock we've been discussing it the whole day
23:26 Juerd Plain text is awful for designers.
23:26 Juerd Word is negative in any case.
23:26 Juerd :)
23:26 obra fglock: I'll pull and have a look
23:26 * stevan looks at it with his "code monkey" hat on (the rainbow colored one with the little propellor on top)
23:26 obra fglock: I'm somewhat distracted today
23:26 Juerd I wish we had a quotes database here :)
23:26 szbalint If you use PDF::Api2 for your resumé then it means you're a genius or really twisted to understand the documentation
23:27 szbalint ;)
23:27 fglock stevan: that's a cool hat.
23:27 Juerd szbalint: Hehe
23:27 Juerd Someone once sent me a CV written in ... EXCEL.
23:28 fglock obra: one page in plain unformatted text
23:28 fglock obra: http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/misc/pX/Common/lrep/Deal.txt
23:30 obra Well, I'd argue that p6 is still short some specs.
23:31 FurnaceBoy lol@Juerd
23:31 Juerd nothingmuch: Your catalyst plugins are effectively listed twice. That's cheating ;)
23:31 obra Like, say, concurrency. unless larry blessed audrey's spec while I wasn't watching
23:32 Juerd obra: Even if not, then still everyone else has :)
23:32 fglock obra: the main idea is to bootstrap soon, but go on working as usual
23:32 nothingmuch Juerd: shaadaaaaaap ;-)
23:32 obra fglock: go send it to p6l to get some discussion going outside #perl6
23:33 Juerd nothingmuch: :))
23:34 fglock obra: thanks - please ask me if I should clarify something before you send - I woudn't like to leave a wrong impression (I'm not a native speaker)
23:34 obra Sorry. you should send it, not me :P
23:34 stevan fglock: (caveat: i have not read it yet), but the more details the better
23:35 obra It needs an introduction explaining what you're trying to do
23:35 szbalint I'd read it but my technical knowledge is too poor for that...
23:36 fglock obra: ok
23:37 fglock obra: is there a real separation between TPF's perl6 and Pugs perl6, or is it just me?
23:37 obra They're parallel implementation efforts that have a lot of cross-pollination.
23:37 FurnaceBoy a.k.a. "they swap spit"
23:38 wolverian eww, isn't that incest?
23:38 FurnaceBoy (less syllables)
23:38 szbalint Btw, I love the linguistics puns and inside jokes - but they do make the barrier of entry higher
23:38 FurnaceBoy no, it's kissin' -- unless you're from... nm
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23:39 fglock obra: are you aware of lrep?
23:44 obra lrep?
23:44 svnbot6 r9373 | fglock++ | lrep/Notes-Pugs.pm - Grammar engine: about boxed/unboxed, Rule x Match
23:46 larsen joined perl6
23:47 fglock obra: lrep is an implementation of a Perl 6 compiler in plain perl5. The compiler is already bootstrapped - the grammar is written in Perl 6
23:47 stevan_ joined perl6
23:47 fglock obra: audreyt is helping move this into the "main" Pugs
23:48 wolverian how do you move perl code to pugs? :)
23:48 fglock obra: I announced it a week ago
23:48 fglock wolverian: it's perl6 code!
23:49 wolverian oh, the grammar is. right. what about the primitives?
23:49 wolverian or is this a compiler only
23:50 fglock wolverian: the primitives are Perl6 too - we are moving the few remaining things to modules, and than they will be translated to perl6 or not (since perl6 supports perl5 syntax)
23:50 wolverian right
23:50 wolverian neat :)
23:50 obra oh. fglock I just didn't know the name. cool
23:50 fglock obra: although a week ago it didn't have a name
23:51 fglock obra: so I think it is a great time to synch with the TPF people
23:52 obra *nod*
23:52 stevan_ fglock: re: make OO nodes in the AST
23:52 fglock obra: sorry for "TPF people" - how can I name them politely?
23:52 fglock stevan_: that's under way
23:52 stevan_ the metamodel should be able to desugar all class definitions into basic method calls
23:53 Juerd Is "people" inpolite?
23:53 fglock stevan_: sure - so implementing OO will be pure syntax, right?
23:53 stevan_ fglock: see this paste http://sial.org/pbot/16191
23:53 obra fglock: do you mean the design team for perl6, patrick who does pge, or the parrot hackers?
23:53 fglock Juerd: calling pople "them" like: "not us" :(
23:54 fglock s/pole/people/
23:54 stevan_ the macro syntax is totally off,.. but the desugared code at the bottom is what I am thinking of
23:54 Juerd "they" very commonly are "not us"
23:55 stevan_ fglock: make any sense?
23:55 fglock obra: I mean the people who work in perl6-related things - Patrick, Allison - we are redesigning some things (like the rule engine) and it would be nice if they could be part of this
23:55 fglock steva_: will look
23:56 fglock s/steva_/stevan_/ - I'll stop correcting myself now :)
23:56 fglock stevan_: just a note, before I finish reading
23:57 Juerd fglock: Do you not use tab completion? :)
23:57 obra fglock: you should have as much discussion as you can on the mailinglist
23:57 obra even if it's a summary of today's irc discussion
23:57 fglock obra: ok - I'll try (tomorrow - too late here for real thinking)
23:58 obra nodnod
23:58 fglock stevan_: some initialization will take place in the bootstrap
23:58 obra patrick, allison, chip and so on do better with the lists than pure irc.
23:58 obra So using the lists will get more of their attention
23:58 jisom joined perl6
23:58 stevan_ fglock: yes, nothingmuch pointed out that much of that will happen inside a BEGIN {} block
23:59 fglock obra: writing the intro will take some time, but I'll do it - it's not like an informal talking - some people will just read it and don't even reply to me

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