Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-03-20

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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01:17 svnbot6 r9660 | fglock++ | pX/.../PCR - lexical subrules implemented, but PadWalker returns 'undef' (Windows bug?)
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01:25 fglock PCR lexical subrules work fine in feather, but fail in Windows
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01:50 svnbot6 r9662 | fglock++ | pX/.../PCR - shorter TODO
01:50 GabrielVieira hello there
01:51 fglock oi Gabriel
01:51 GabrielVieira td bem flavio?
01:51 GabrielVieira ops
01:51 * GabrielVieira turned on english input :P
01:52 fglock trabalhando a luz de lanterna aqui, lapto na bateria...
01:52 fglock laptop
01:52 GabrielVieira haha
01:52 GabrielVieira serio?
01:52 GabrielVieira faltou energia ou foi a conta? :P
01:52 fglock yes (blackout)
01:52 GabrielVieira humm
01:52 GabrielVieira foda em
01:52 GabrielVieira cascavel?
01:53 fglock it was raining - no, Porto Alegre
01:53 GabrielVieira hum
01:54 GabrielVieira all the city?
01:54 GabrielVieira or just your neighborhood?
01:55 fglock I see no lights in 1km around
01:55 GabrielVieira i was watching "Falcon, Sons of the trafic" on globo :D
01:55 GabrielVieira humm
01:55 fglock i was watching lord of the rings ...
01:56 GabrielVieira i dont like the translated version ;~
01:56 GabrielVieira just with legends or nothing else
01:59 GabrielVieira fglock look at this http://noticias.uol.com.br/ultnot/efe/2006/03/19/ult1807u26877.jhtm
02:01 fglock very OT, isn't it?
02:02 GabrielVieira yep
02:02 GabrielVieira i didnt know about that
02:02 GabrielVieira :~
02:03 fglock are you going to YAPC::Brasil?
02:04 GabrielVieira not this year :/
02:04 GabrielVieira maybe next one :D
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02:43 xinming hi all, I'm in Kunming now. :-)
03:13 merlyn where is kunming?
03:21 ayrnieu http://worldfacts.us/China-Kunming.htm
03:21 ayrnieu http://homepage.mac.com/johngoodman/
03:23 ayrnieu http://www.maps-of-china.com/kunming-ow.shtml
03:23 merlyn Oh.  somewhere in china
03:23 merlyn someplace I'm not likely to go in the next ten years
03:23 merlyn unless they decide they want the US. :)
03:23 ayrnieu (better: http://www.maps-of-china.com/china-country.shtml)
03:24 merlyn ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunming
03:24 merlyn wikipedia++
03:24 ayrnieu it needs a better map, though.
03:25 ayrnieu well, you can squint at one of the maps on /China
03:29 merlyn still - not likely I'll end up there.
03:30 merlyn as bad as the US is getting for human rights, at least we aren't China. :)
03:30 ayrnieu it's probably safer to be !chinese in China.
03:30 merlyn Even a felon?
03:31 ayrnieu what?  You're not a sex offender.
03:31 merlyn True.
03:31 merlyn I'm offensive during sex, sometimes. :)
03:31 merlyn but that's not the same thing at all.
03:47 xinming Hmm, the best introduction for kunming is there is no other seasons except spring. :-)
03:49 merlyn too bad it's still "the land of the opposite of free"
03:50 merlyn I am sad for 2 billion people
03:50 merlyn but thankfully, this next rum and coke will help me forget that
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04:06 arusa human rights? # http://www.thenation.com/doc/20051226/klein
04:06 arusa oooops.....wrong channel ;)
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04:15 ayrnieu actually, right channel.
04:15 ayrnieu making assumptions of that URL.
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05:15 eric256 hey....a bit OT but....lol...does anyone here know of a good photo tagging package?
05:15 eric256 it seems like there would be hundreds out there since digital photography is soo huge, and yet, i don't realy see much out there.
05:16 mugwump eric256: f-spot
05:16 mugwump has a nice gui, and it's in ubuntu
05:16 eric256 yea i saw f-spot but it is gnome only...should have mentioned i'm on windows ;)
05:17 mugwump um.. flickr.com ?  :)
05:17 eric256 hehe yea if i want to upload my 20k pictures lol.  realy i should probably delete 19k but they are soo cheap to store...now if i could only find them agian
05:19 eric256 i was thinking though...if windows had a way to make links...a software could store all the pictures in one spot, then build fake directories where each directory was a key word and put links to all the pictures in each directory that matched there tags.  then just have it scan for real files being added, so i just put files into the right directories, and it pulls them into the archive and puts links in all the right spots.  hmm
05:23 ayrnieu If you have 20k pictures, you'll need a mechanical turk just to tag them.
05:23 eric256 aint that the truth
05:24 * eric256 starts windows counting his pictures out of curiosity
05:24 eric256 ahh a disappointing 6.7k  oh well. still quite a few.
05:26 diotalevi Ah, eric256 reinvents the DB as a file system. :-)
05:26 ayrnieu I recommend that you get to work on the turk, then, and process it in off moments -- or think of a way to distribute the processing (mainly, you want to protect yourself from chaotic tagging).
05:26 eric256 diotalevi if windows would come out with there filesystem that is suppose to handle this then life would be good. ;
05:31 diotalevi eh. that's supposed to be vista. I've wanted this for linux for years.
05:31 eric256 should be easy on linux
05:32 eric256 as far as i can tell the scheme i just cooked up wouldn't even require a gui . for instance you save in \vacation\2005\ and in also shows up in \2005\vacation ;) and even in just \2005 or \vacation.   save in any directory and it automagicaly tags with all the directories as keywords.  hardest part is probably watching all the directories to see new additions and modify links/directories as needed
05:36 diotalevi say, you know windows does symlinks, right?
05:36 ayrnieu ... if you're already encoding the tags as directories, why watch directories and automatically tag things?
05:37 eric256 i've been reading on it yes. and it sort of does. ;) shortcuts arn't symlinks, but there are some utilities that do, but only for directories
05:37 eric256 ayrnieu because sometimes i'll be looking in 2005 and sometimes in vacations, and sometimes i want all pictures with both keywords
05:37 ayrnieu eric - do you already have the images in the directories in this manner?
05:38 eric256 so the picture would need to show up in all those directories ;)  unless i figure out how you make your own folders like My network places and then I could code my own system
05:38 eric256 ayrnieu....maybe 50% ;) but not as detailed as i would like, becuase then it becomes hard to find a picture unless you know *all* of its tags
05:39 diotalevi I think the Windows-ish way to do what you want is with one of those "this diretory works like a web page" things and you do some DHTML.
05:39 ayrnieu eric - then you've already a significant headstart on a real solution.  A real solution might also make use of a local webserver.
05:39 * FurnaceBoy_ (hearts) Flickr
05:40 ayrnieu FurnaceBoy - eric256 doubts that it can handle his 6.5K images.
05:40 eric256 i've thought about both of those, but i want any program looking at the pictures DWIM and not see the underlying structure.
05:41 eric256 so my base picture folder would have one subfolder for every tag and all photos, then you narrow it down by choosing sub categories (and maybe pictures arn't visible till you choose at least one tag)
05:47 eric256 hehe windows has fsutil for creating hardlinks and hlscan to scan them...now to start work ;
05:47 eric256 )
05:50 spo0nman eric256: you can write a script in 10 minutes.
05:50 spo0nman eric256: for tagging and uploading to flickr.
05:51 eric256 spo0nman and how does that help me access them on my own computer?
05:51 eric256 flickr is nice and all, but i'm not real comfortable giving them all of my pictures to store and tag ;)
05:51 spo0nman eric256: hmm ...
05:52 spo0nman eric256:I work for them ... we are not evl.
05:52 spo0nman :)
05:52 eric256 okay...still doesn't solve my problem lol
05:53 eric256 now if you have a local version coming out that convinces the normal windows FS that it is realy a tagged media album i'll be happy to use it
05:53 spo0nman eric256:yeah! well you'd have to write a db thing in sqllite then.
05:53 spo0nman eric256:you're on windows?
05:53 eric256 for this project ;)
05:56 eric256 i wonder if its easier to watch the directories for changes....or just scan periodicaly
05:57 ayrnieu depends on the platform.
05:57 eric256 win xp ;)
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05:59 spo0nman i would do a database with a simple schema photo->location photosids->tag-ids  tag->ids->tagname.
06:00 eric256 spo0nman that is not a hard part ;) the only think i'm working on is makeing a regular windows folder system pretend that it is actualy a media tagging system
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06:01 eric256 Win32::ChangeNotify will let me do the job. ;) now to figure out how to get it installed. lol. oddly ppm doesn't find it. probably screwed up my repos agian somehow
06:01 spo0nman eric256: ah!
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06:14 eric256 now i've got all the peices and its time to sleep...bahh. liked it better when i could pull all nighters ;) wife would probably smack me if she woke up at 5am an i was still up. ;) later all
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06:29 spo0nman KingDiamond: Pfffff.
06:31 KingDiamond audreyt: there?
06:35 audreyt KingDiamond: I'm still massively jetlagged
06:36 audreyt expect me to back to normal mental capacity in... I don't know, 24 hours or so :)
06:48 KingDiamond audreyt: okay, np :-)
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07:00 ayrnieu how can I perform zero-width negative lookahead/lookbehinds in rules?  I guessed <-after ...> <-behind ...> , but this doen't parse...
07:01 ayrnieu ah, !
07:02 ayrnieu also, that should've been <!before ...>
07:04 svnbot6 r9663 | Darren_Duncan++ |  r3235@darren-duncans-power-mac-g4:  darrenduncan | 2006-03-19 23:02:28 -0800
07:04 svnbot6 r9663 | Darren_Duncan++ |  ext/Rosetta/ : continued rewrite of Language.pod
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07:16 * ayrnieu makes pretty LJ-url-matching rules from his perl5, only to discover in the process that the negative lookahead was perfectly useless (but harmless) all along.
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08:55 GeJ morning folks
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09:05 ingy hola
09:05 dduncan yello
09:06 Supaplex nite
09:07 svnbot6 r9664 | Darren_Duncan++ |  r3239@darren-duncans-power-mac-g4:  darrenduncan | 2006-03-20 01:06:22 -0800
09:07 svnbot6 r9664 | Darren_Duncan++ |  ext/Rosetta/ : continued rewrite of Language.pod
09:08 ingy good night Supaplex
09:08 ingy hola dduncan
09:08 dduncan ditto
09:08 nothingmuch møøsage
09:10 dduncan feel free to wade into Language.pod, though what I've written so far is the 80% of the 10,000 mile view so everything may be too abstract to be useful ... still, lots of revolutions in there
09:13 ingy nothingmuch: want to help me figure something out with Module::Compile
09:13 ingy using SEE
09:23 Aragone is now known as Arathorn
09:27 Arathorn morning everyone & everything
09:28 nothingmuch ingy: not now...
09:28 nothingmuch i'm at work
09:28 nothingmuch and stressed ou
09:28 nothingmuch t
09:36 KingDiamond nothingmuch: looks like I'm gonna be out of luck for sometime at least then
09:38 nothingmuch home come?
09:38 nothingmuch it's only till wednesday
09:38 nothingmuch and it doesn't include the afternoon
09:39 nothingmuch and you didn't seem to need any help for the past few days =)
09:39 KingDiamond nothingmuch: I was not in town, and had spotty internet access :-(
09:39 nothingmuch oh
09:39 nothingmuch err
09:39 nothingmuch well, others can also help
09:39 nothingmuch and I can be pinged for 5 minute increments
09:39 KingDiamond yeah, I guess :)
09:40 KingDiamond heh
09:40 nothingmuch just not for deep magic hacking sessions like ingy wants =)
09:40 KingDiamond heh
09:40 nothingmuch to help with M::C i need to do a full context switch and *really* think about something else
09:41 ingy back
09:42 ingy nothingmuch: so... ready?
09:44 dduncan left perl6
09:44 nothingmuch ingy: no... big deadline
09:44 nothingmuch i'll make it
09:44 nothingmuch but I want to be 100% sure
09:44 nothingmuch maybe later today
09:45 ingy someday when /me and nothingmuch are flatmates, pairing will be easier
09:46 nothingmuch =)
09:46 nothingmuch do you plan on coming back from .tw to .us?
09:46 nothingmuch heh. to .com
09:46 nothingmuch =)
09:47 ingy nothingmuch: at times, yes
09:47 nothingmuch where do you intend on living?
09:47 ingy .cai
09:48 nothingmuch cai?
09:48 ingy The Sovereign Republic of Coffee And Internet
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09:49 nothingmuch hehe
09:50 nothingmuch in that case if you let me know in advance and we can arrange i don't see why we can't be flatmates
09:50 nothingmuch i mean, it's not like you're a weird rapist or something
09:50 nothingmuch you're just weird
09:50 ingy Samhain!
09:50 nothingmuch .... has quit
09:50 ingy we are 138
09:50 nothingmuch 138?
09:51 ingy google: Samhain 138
09:51 nothingmuch oh
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09:51 ingy http://www.onethirtyeight.com/main.html
09:52 ingy I think Samhain predates nothingmuch
09:52 nothingmuch yes, by a lot
09:52 ingy I bet Samhain probably predates Samhain
09:52 nothingmuch but most the music I hear predates me
09:53 rgs isn't samhain the french name for halloween, btw
09:53 ingy aye
09:53 ingy sah-wane
09:53 nothingmuch rgs: i thought you were supposed to know ;-)
09:53 ingy or somesuch
09:54 ingy s/somesuch/somesuchshit/g
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10:58 svnbot6 r9665 | fglock++ | pX/.../PCR - fast grammar
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11:20 spo0nman Im trying to install pugs on Freebsd
11:21 spo0nman and I've got parrot-0.4.2 ghc 6.4 and perl 5.6.1
11:21 spo0nman I am facing problems while compiling pugs.
11:22 spo0nman this is the output of my steps after I downloaded hs-plugins.
11:22 spo0nman http://pastebin.com/612147
11:22 spo0nman it'll be nice if someone explains what is it that im doing wrong.
11:22 nothingmuch you don't need hs-plugins unless you want 'eval_haskell'
11:22 nothingmuch just FYI
11:22 spo0nman nothingmuch: hmm where do i get that?
11:22 spo0nman nothingmuch: can you look at the errors please?
11:23 nothingmuch looking
11:23 nothingmuch i think you ran setup and friends wrong
11:23 nothingmuch but I don't know how to do that right
11:23 spo0nman pugs errors are right down at the end.
11:23 nothingmuch ask on #haskell
11:23 nothingmuch unless someone here steps up
11:23 mauke hmm, missing symbols from gmp
11:23 nothingmuch but in general if you're just poking around, start without hs-plugins for now
11:25 spo0nman how to start without them? i already installed it.
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13:08 svnbot6 r9666 | fglock++ | pX/.../PCR - built-in rules: alpha, alnum, ...
13:17 Juerd seen audreyt
13:17 Juerd No seenbot? :|
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13:21 nothingmuch Juerd: no =(
13:21 svnbot6 r9667 | fglock++ | pX/.../PCR - cleared warnings in t/04-rule.t
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13:27 fglock does anyone have experience with PadWalker?
13:28 broquaint A little.
13:29 fglock broquaint: I can find a variable, but the value comes 'undef' - I'm using peek_my()
13:30 broquaint A code snippet would be handy, fglock :)
13:31 fglock do you have a pugs tree? /misc/pX/Common/Pugs-Compiler-Rule/lib/Pugs/Runtime/Rule.pm - last subroutine in this file. I'll paste it here, one sec.
13:32 broquaint I've got it, I'll take a look now.
13:32 pasteling "fglock" at 200.17.89.80 pasted "non-working peek_my()" (33 lines, 498B) at http://sial.org/pbot/16412
13:33 broquaint And what are you trying to achieve?
13:34 fglock you can test it by running t/04-rule.t - I'm trying to get the value of a lexical variable in the user's program
13:34 broquaint Right-o.
13:35 fglock uncomment the warn() in line 343, and it'll show the variable contents (I get undef)
13:40 broquaint Hrm ...
13:43 broquaint My subconscious recognises the problem but it's not quite making it to the conscious level yet ...
13:44 broquaint Declaring $match twice can't be helping, fglock ;)
13:46 broquaint Can't call method "match" on unblessed reference at (eval 36) line 7.
13:46 broquaint Which is why $match is empty because an error is occurring on a previous line.
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13:49 pasteling "broquaint" at 217.206.131.214 pasted "Broken perl5 code in generated rule (the match called fails as the method can't be found)" (2 lines, 273B) at http://sial.org/pbot/16413
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13:50 broquaint So the perl5 line in that pasted code is a kv in the rule that is generated. The error occurs there. I'm guessing the peek_my bit is working though.
13:51 fglock broquaint: $match fixed, thanks - but I still get undef - $r is what peek_my should be looking for - and it returns undef :(
13:52 broquaint Are you sure it's undef?
13:52 broquaint Check $@.
13:54 pasteling "fglock" at 200.17.89.80 pasted "debugging get_variable()" (38 lines, 648B) at http://sial.org/pbot/16414
13:55 fglock $@ is clear in get_variable()
13:56 broquaint Yeah, I'm having problems debugging :/
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14:05 broquaint It looks like it's returning something.
14:06 broquaint Got it working now.
14:07 * fglock can't wait :)
14:09 pasteling "broquaint" at 217.206.131.214 pasted "The working get_variable()" (12 lines, 239B) at http://sial.org/pbot/16415
14:12 fglock broquaint: it doesn't work here
14:14 broquaint Ok, I'll commit my working stuff shortly.
14:15 fglock broquaint: which version of PadWalker are you using?
14:18 broquaint 1.0
14:18 broquaint I needed it for Params::Named.
14:20 fglock 0.10 here - I'll try upgrading
14:20 broquaint Good call :) I've commited the fixes now too.
14:22 svnbot6 r9668 | broquaint++ | * Fixed lexical variable lookups.
14:23 fglock broquaint: thanks - it looks like this module will require 1.0
14:24 broquaint Ah well, at least the variable lookup should be more robust now.
14:24 svnbot6 r9669 | broquaint++ | * Fixed bug where a lexical scope might be empty and the lookup would end.
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14:29 spo0nman merlyn: foo.
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15:49 stevan Juerd: ping
15:49 Juerd pong
15:50 stevan Juerd: I need a recomendation for a good ergonomic keyboard for my wife
15:51 stevan I know you are familiar with such stuff :)
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16:02 obra heh.
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16:48 Juerd stevan: Depends on what the problem is, but in general, I'm very fond of my Kinesis keyboard
16:48 stevan Juerd: she is mostly have wrist discomfort, and numbness in the fingers
16:49 Juerd stevan: And sorry for my abrupt and unannounced leaving; had to assist someone who cut off part of his index finger, and bring the guy to hospital
16:49 obra stevan: what's she using right now?
16:49 stevan Juerd: no problem :)
16:49 obra (Has she seen a doctor?)
16:49 stevan obra: the default keyboard which came with the iMac
16:49 stevan obra: no, but she is going to soon
16:49 obra good. that's step one
16:49 xerox What iMac, if I may ask?
16:49 Juerd stevan: Then a Kinesis will probably help. Have her see a chiropractor or kinesiologist (speling guessed)
16:50 stevan she used to use a laptop,.. which is when the problem began
16:50 Juerd stevan: ... especially if she also suffers from cold hands (bad blood circulation)
16:50 stevan xerox: the lastest G5 model
16:50 stevan Juerd: cool,.. thanks :)
16:50 obra even a $30 MS Natural is better than the default thing. Kinesis keyboards are also good for lots of folks. If she's really far gone, a DataHand may be interesting
16:50 Juerd stevan: Also, make sure she learns dvorak... :)
16:51 stevan Juerd: yes, I was going to suggest that to her
16:51 obra and if it looks like she needs a datahand, you're welcome to borrow mine to try out before you consider a $800 keyboard
16:51 stevan obra: yeah, she was thinking about the natural one
16:51 Juerd One thing about Kinesis... You *must* clip your nails more often than with other keyboards, and it's not usable by people who like to have long fingernails :)
16:51 stevan datahand == funky :)
16:52 * obra finds that a ms natural works better for him than a kinesis
16:52 Juerd obra: I've often looked at the datahand online; it's indeed extremely expensive. Would you say it's worth it?
16:52 obra also, how's her typing posture? how close is the keyboard to her lap?
16:52 obra Juerd: for a couple folks I know, the choice was "datahand or find a new career"
16:52 obra and it saved their careers.
16:53 obra For me, it was worth it, only because my employer paid for it
16:53 obra the ms natural elite is still my all-time favorite keyboard.
16:53 obra moreso, even than an IBM clicky ;)
16:53 Juerd MS Natural and Kinesis differ in one important aspect: A "natural" keyboard forces slim people to widen their elbows, and that eventually starts hurting your shoulders.
16:53 Juerd And Kinesis keyboards are too narrow for fatter people
16:54 Juerd obra: I see...
16:54 stevan obra: her posture was horrible (when she was using the laptop), but is better now that she is on the desktop
16:54 * obra carries a ms natural with his laptop
16:54 Juerd Laptops are great only for weak hands. Everything else starts to hurt then :)
16:55 Juerd And, obviously, most laptop keyboards suck incredibly (all the cheap brands, at least)
16:55 * stevan is a light typer, so has never had an issue
16:55 obra for me, it's about wrist position
16:55 stevan but when i paint/draw, i tend to hold the brush/pencil very tight and get numbness easy
16:55 Juerd obra: The natural position for wrists depends on how far apart your shoulders are..
16:56 Juerd For me, the Kinesis gives me a more natural wrist position; I've used several "natural" keyboards before I figured that out.
16:56 Juerd Including MS Natural Elite
16:57 Juerd Three different Logitech ones, two MS ones, one white label one.
16:57 * obra has wide shoulders
16:57 Juerd I liked the original MS Natural keyboard best.
16:57 obra Also, its biggest problem: the kinesis sucks to carry around and/or use in my lap
16:57 Juerd stevan: Look for ergonomical brush holders. They're silicone grips.
16:58 stevan Juerd: interesting,.. I will
16:58 Juerd stevan: The painter who painted our house used those
16:58 Juerd That's of course very different from painting art, but my guess is that such a solution probably works for both kinds.
16:59 Juerd obra: Agreed. It absolutely sucks for non-stationary.
16:59 Juerd I mostly work in one place, though, and the little time I use my laptop, I'm able to use my (splendid) IBM laptop keyboard.
16:59 obra I also have an IBM keyboard that's "the top bit of a thinkpad"
16:59 Juerd In fact, I like it very much because it has 96% keys compared to desktops and other laptops. That's great for my small hands.
17:00 obra but again with the "wrong angles"
17:00 Juerd I wish there was an IBM UltraNav *split* keyboard.
17:00 obra but it has a trackpoint, touchpad and thinkpad keys. and a USB port
17:00 obra to my knowledge, IBM has only done one split keyboard
17:00 Juerd obra: That's the UltraNav.
17:00 obra and 20 years later, they go used for > $300
17:00 Juerd The Kinesis would be perfect (except for carrying) if it came in two parts.
17:01 obra and had a trackpoint
17:01 Juerd The fixed distances and angles are SO stupid.
17:01 obra Developing for the web without a mouse is a bit of a pain
17:01 obra But I need to run off and do this annoying "work"
17:05 Juerd Have "fun"
17:06 stennie_ joined perl6
17:07 obra "Thanks"
17:08 taeli- is now known as taeli
17:10 Samhain is now known as samhain1138
17:11 samhain1138 rgs: samhain is the pagan holiday from which halloween is derived
17:11 rgs pagan ? you mean celtic
17:13 taeli- joined perl6
17:17 taeli- joined perl6
17:18 samhain1138 ingy: Samhain were still playing after nothingmuch was born ;)
17:18 ingy yep
17:18 samhain1138 ingy: what's really sad is that i never got to see the misfits, and i'm a huge fiend (tattoos and all ;))
17:20 DesreveR joined perl6
17:20 ingy samhain1138: I'm sure there are plenty in that boat
17:32 ruoso joined perl6
17:32 ruoso hi all
17:32 ruoso fglock, news?
17:32 fglock ruoso: hi!
17:33 fglock ruoso: PCR is much faster! I fixed the unneeded backtrackings
17:33 ruoso fglock, nice...
17:33 fglock ruoso: and it passes all OO, subrule tests
17:33 ruoso fglock, I'm not at my computer now... is it ready to lrep-compiler?
17:34 ruoso fglock, nice
17:34 ruoso if it's all ok, we can just change the emitter to use the new engine
17:34 DesreveR is now known as r0nny
17:34 ruoso and bootstrap it again
17:34 ruoso then we can throw away the old code
17:34 ruoso right?
17:35 SamB joined perl6
17:35 fglock ruoso: you may need to rewrite the return blocks, using match objects - see the PCR own grammar
17:36 fglock ruoso: PCR is running 100 tests/second here
17:36 ruoso there are only two or three return blocks that manipulates the match object
17:36 ruoso fglock, most of them just return { lalala => $() }
17:36 fglock ok - easier then :)
17:36 gaal wow, Test::Pod::Coverage. what an excellent example of a good idea gone silly.
17:37 ruoso fglock, so... do you think PCR is able to compile Grammar/Perl6.p6 in lrep-compiler?
17:38 osfameron gaal: I think the annoying thing is the test failure on less than 100%... that should be configurable
17:38 ruoso fglock, or should I move most of the rules to some class inside PCR
17:38 ruoso like Pugs::Grammar::Statements
17:38 fglock ruoso: PCR can't compile Grammar - it compiles only Rule
17:38 ruoso fglock, hmmm
17:39 ruoso fglock, so I won't be able to use PCR as an in-place substitute for the current lrep engine?
17:39 fglock ruoso: it replaces p6rule / p6rule_lib
17:39 fglock ruoso: it replaces iterator_engine too
17:40 ruoso fglock, that's the ruleop:: methods
17:40 ruoso fglock, and the emit_rule code
17:40 ruoso right?
17:40 gaal osfameron: indeed. I just added this, so I can still use it when I do get around to documentation.
17:40 gaal # plan skip_all => "Test::Pod::Coverage is a little too draconic for my taste" unless $ENV{BITE_THE_BULLET};
17:40 gaal of course, I'm likely not to remember to do that!
17:40 gaal which is why this is silly.
17:40 fglock ruoso: yes, plus half of the grammar file
17:40 ruoso fglock, isn't it just a matter of including one rule and one emit node to PCR?
17:41 ruoso fglock, AFAICS this is what's missing to compile the grammar
17:41 osfameron our old smoke started off insisting 25%, then gradually raised the bar
17:41 ruoso if it can emit the methods, emitting the class is easy
17:42 ruoso fglock, should I sublass PCR?
17:42 fglock ruoso: no, you are supposed to use or inherit from PCR - 'grammar' is not part of the 'rule' language
17:42 ruoso fglock, hmmm... maybe PCR and lrep should inherit from the same thing...
17:42 fglock ruoso: you'd better create a new Grammar, and call PCR to parse the '...' in 'rule {...}'
17:43 ruoso fglock, ok
17:43 ruoso fglock, now it makes more sense to me
17:43 ruoso fglock, so PCR can parse and emit the code for the <rule>
17:43 gaal osfameron: yeah. but the module provides no way to set a threshold. draconic.
17:43 fglock ruoso: yes
17:44 ruoso fglock, can I call it in two phases? parse first, emit later?
17:44 fglock ruoso: yes - see the implementation of compile()
17:46 ruoso fglock, nice...
17:48 * ruoso just waiting to get to his computer to refactor lrep-compiler and use PCR
17:49 pmurias joined perl6
17:49 ruoso pmurias, hi..
17:50 pmurias hi
17:51 ruoso pmurias, any new idea on the grammar?
17:51 fglock pmurias: pX/PCR is already working - it's much faster now
17:52 ruoso pmurias, ready to lrep-compiler :)
17:54 fglock about grammar optimization - the new PCR grammar uses a kind of 'if-then-else' instead of backtracking (see the last 2 rules in the file)
17:54 pmurias fglock hinted that we should use %dispatch_table instead of @rules, now i'm trying to add %hash to PCR
17:55 fglock pmurias: eliminating backtracking makes it much faster, even without a dispatch table
17:59 fglock see lib/Pugs/Grammar/Rule/Rule.pm
18:00 pmurias any one wants to start porting lrep-compiler to the PCR? or should i begin doing it?
18:01 ruoso pmurias, feel free
18:01 ruoso pmurias, see the recent backlog (just before you join)
18:01 ruoso pmurias, me and fglock were discussing exactly how to do it
18:02 ruoso pmurias, but I'm away from my computer and can't do it now
18:02 arcady joined perl6
18:04 PerlJam It's too bad you don't have access to real continuations.
18:05 pmichaud yes, continuations make it *much* simpler
18:05 pmichaud I wouldn't have wanted to do PGE w/o continuations
18:05 pmichaud continuations allowed me to make PGE more of a compiler than an interpreter
18:05 fglock pmichaud: how do continuations help?
18:05 PerlJam You could fake it with some gotos and clever use of global data though I bet.  It just requires a lot more work :)
18:05 pmichaud backtracking is easier across calls
18:05 Limbic_Region joined perl6
18:05 pmichaud it's easier to backtrack subrules
18:06 fglock pmichaud: ok - I've used a state-machine to fake it
18:06 pmichaud fglock: right, it can be done with a state machine as well, but continuations and coroutines mean the execution trace can keep the state for you :-)
18:16 ghenry joined perl6
18:27 TimToady pmichaud: just answered your 6p query.
18:27 pmichaud TimToady: oh, thank you thank you thank you
18:27 pmichaud TimToady: yes, it's in my box
18:27 pmichaud I can switch context back to parsing now instead of adding documentation and comments :-)
18:28 TimToady except that I floated a new proposal at the same time to change .() special form to _() instead...
18:28 pmichaud eek, I see that
18:29 TimToady anyway, we'll have to see what Damian says about it.
18:29 TimToady It looks more complicated, but it's actually unifying all the magic under _.
18:30 TimToady you wouldn't have to lookahead for .X things and then do different things based on what X is anymore.
18:31 pmichaud well, I was already not looking ahead for .X things -- I was switching the operator table based on the presence/absence of whitespace
18:31 TimToady gee, who told you to do it that way.  :-)
18:31 pmichaud hey, it works (worked?) nicely
18:32 TimToady until you hit list operators. :)
18:32 pmichaud well, I was doing listops as a sort of prefix op, but that fell apart when the thing coming after the listop wasn't a term
18:33 TimToady You can have "foo" on one line, and the next line start with ".", and
18:33 TimToady you're still not sure whether to "eat" the space.
18:33 TimToady the current situation requires two-token lookahead, basically.
18:33 TimToady and I now think that's bad.
18:34 pmichaud oh, I was treating .(, .[, .{, etc. as tokens
18:34 TimToady Yes, but it's the same sort of token inconsistency that Perl 5 has in its sigils + whatever.
18:34 pmichaud yes
18:34 TimToady I should have recognized the design smell...
18:35 ingy TimToady: yeah, what were you tokin'?
18:35 TimToady I don't need to toke anything to be natively stupid about tokens...
18:36 ingy Maybe you had too much Tolkien
18:36 * particle_ recognizes a bad pun smell
18:37 TimToady -Opungent
18:37 * ingy senses a new module
18:37 ingy -MPugent
18:37 * TimToady wants to make a pun on "podule".
18:37 siosiosios joined perl6
18:38 gaal -Mars::Poetica
18:38 particle_ podule? a plague of doc errors?
18:38 TimToady -Venus::Poetica for equal time?
18:39 gaal -Doc
18:39 * ingy smells -Uranus::Poetic coming
18:40 ingy ewwww
18:40 * ingy needs to sleeep
18:40 * gaal needs to finish up this module
18:40 * TimToady sentences ingy to watch that segment of E.T. 100 times in a row.,
18:41 ingy E.T. skype home
18:41 pmichaud TimToady: so, if I'm understanding things correctly, essentially we handle the "terms" and "method postfix" levels of precedence using top-down notions, and the rest can be bottom-up.  And we need a parameter to the bottom up parser that says "only use tokens at XYZ precedence level or higher".  Sound close?
18:41 pmichaud (where XYZ precedence is really "higher than list op precedence")
18:42 TimToady Yeah, that sounds about right.  Only need a crude two-way partition of precedence levels, but maybe it's worth generalizing.
18:43 pmichaud at the moment it's easy for me to generalize the bottom-up parser to say "stop on a token that is lower than XYZ level"
18:43 pmichaud oh, wait, it's not as easy as I thought.  But I can still do it.  :-)
18:44 TimToady np, just have to decide where the actual boundary is, in case people add new prec levels.  I guess if they say "is looser(LIST)" then they're obviously talking about the righthand prec of list operators, not the lefthand.
18:44 TimToady (which would be infinite like a left paren.)
18:45 pmichaud right
18:45 pmichaud essentially one could use   is looser(infix:<< <== >>)
18:45 pmichaud sorry, is looser(infix:<,>)  (had it backwards)
18:46 pmichaud or is equiv(infix:<< <== >>)   (you get the idea)
18:46 TimToady The question is whether that makes a new list operator or something on the other side of the fence.
18:46 TimToady we could put the boundary in the interstices between list operators and the next loosest thing, I suppose.
18:47 TimToady not sure if that makes sense though.
18:47 pmichaud I think it'll all work out well enough.  Okay, that tells me where to point the flashlights
18:47 TimToady should probably just shoot anyone who tries it.
18:48 TimToady flashlights are scary to E.T.s...
18:48 pmichaud the nice, elegant operator precedence parser is becoming less elegant :-|
18:48 ingy make the precedence cutoff value a global variable
18:48 TimToady icky globalses
18:48 pmichaud I was going to make it a parameter
18:49 pmichaud <op_parse: infix:,>   (using PGE's syntax, not p6's)
18:49 TimToady terminators to subparses should generally be parameters.
18:50 pmichaud on the other hand, if we say that method postfix and above is handled by top-down parsing, I should be able to get rid of the whitespace switch in the bottom-up parser, yes?
18:50 TimToady you could almost generalize the parameter to a smart match, which would let us match against either a set of tokens or a range of precedences (but maybe not both with the same param)
18:51 * ingy wanders off to watch random Big Lebowski segments until sleep overtakes him
18:51 * Arathorn would rather Hucksucker Proxy than Big Lebowski...
18:51 pmichaud TimToady: that's a very interesting approach
18:51 pmichaud hmmmmm
18:52 ingy Arathorn: that's like just your opinion man...
18:52 Arathorn hehehe
18:52 TimToady yes, top-down could probably deal with whitespace issues, but maybe only if each token looks for its trailing whitespace automatically.
18:52 eric256 joined perl6
18:53 pmichaud well, the rule that would have to deal with trailing whitespace is the term rule, so that's not difficult
18:53 TimToady or at least "knows" somehow whether there's a _ embedded in the next whitespace.
18:53 gaal we need a ))<>(( operator
18:53 TimToady don't go there...
18:53 gaal (whoever knows the reference, honk :)
18:54 pmichaud one could almost generalize the parser into a smart match, where we have a set of states and each token knows what "states" it's active in
18:55 TimToady $string ~~ grammar is already a smart match...
18:55 pmichaud yes, I was thinking at the bottom-up level
18:56 TimToady ah.
18:56 pmichaud i.e., $token ~~ state
18:56 pmichaud i.e., instead having separate term and operator states, generalize to more states
18:56 pmichaud I'll toy with it another time. :-)
18:56 PerlJam pmichaud: from the outside looking in, that seems to jibe well with the language you guys have been using when talking about perl6
18:57 TimToady When I was originally trying to think about how you'd emulate bottom up with a top down parser, I was thinking along those lines.  But you have to construct new precedence levels as new states on the fly, and it exceeded my mental capacity...
18:57 pmichaud I think precedence level is just a parameter to the state
18:58 pmichaud each token already knows its precedence level; we just need to know what level we're currently at (similar to the shift-reduce logic we have now)
18:58 TimToady yes, I realized that at the time, and shortly thereafter my eyes glazed over...
18:59 TimToady but it's definitely worth thinking about if you can, I suspect.
18:59 pmichaud I can, I'm limited only by time.  :-)
18:59 TimToady stay away from margins, then...
19:00 pmichaud well, the other limitation is wanting to get something for others to look at :-)
19:00 * fglock does 'rm -rf *; svn up' - wrong way here ...
19:00 pmichaud I'll spend an hour or so brainstorming it a bit; if that doesn't lead to anything I'll go to the traditional approach for now and backburner it
19:00 TimToady that's just inside-out time, pm.
19:01 pmichaud but shift-reduce parsing becomes much simpler if we can rely on top-down to handle parens
19:01 TimToady Yes, the infinities of surreal precedence are better handled top down.
19:02 * eric256 shakes his head after reading the last 30min~ of log....hmmmm lol
19:03 TimToady you're supposed to nod your head, eric256...
19:04 pmurias fglock:"Can't locate v6.pm in @INC" what do I have to put in PERL5LIB?
19:04 TimToady but you've gotta realize @Larry has been talking this over for several years, and so we tend to talk in riddles.
19:04 GeJ joined perl6
19:04 * particle_ wonders idly why @Larry isn't %Larry
19:04 TimToady because we're all shifty characters.
19:04 pmichaud in fact....... (stream of consciousness).... if we say that terms and circumfixes are handled by top-down, then the only thing left for bottom-up is operators
19:04 fglock pmurias: just run Makefile.PL and it will fix
19:05 particle_ unlike much of perl, that makes sense ;)
19:05 TimToady that's how I originally thunk it would work.
19:05 pmichaud we have prefix operators that have to be recognized in expect_term, but little else
19:05 eric256 lol
19:05 eric256 well you certainly are shifty
19:06 TimToady and everyone else goes popping off in various directions...
19:06 * particle_ pushes TimToady
19:07 * TimToady expands his memory
19:07 * particle_ fills a bucket
19:07 * pmichaud wanders off to think a bit more
19:07 * TimToady challenges particle_ to a wave dual.
19:08 * particle_ accelerates
19:08 TimToady just so you're not an Acceloraptor.
19:09 * TimToady has to wander off too.
19:09 eric256 pugs -Obad_pun
19:09 * TimToady waves
19:09 particle_ nope, i'm a boson
19:09 pmurias fglock: thanks the Makefile.PL vodoo fixed it
19:09 particle_ or is that bozon?
19:09 particle_ no, wait. i'm a moron.
19:10 PerlJam a muon would be more better.
19:10 TimToady well I'm particularly wavering, but still must depart &
19:10 mauke joined perl6
19:11 PerlJam oh, but you said you were a boson, so I guess you can't be a muon
19:13 Muable joined perl6
19:13 gaal a mooson?
19:13 wolverian moonsoon
19:13 gaal (that was very Ob)
19:13 PerlJam What are the particles of perl6?
19:13 particle_ no, wait, i'm a string!
19:14 PerlJam not a super string?
19:14 taeli- is now known as taeli
19:14 particle_ it's the only kind i know
19:15 PerlJam Are you a 10 dimensional object with a 4 dimensional projection?
19:16 particle_ indeed
19:16 particle_ aren't you?
19:17 PerlJam I don't know, I can only observe the 3 dimensional me.
19:20 bernhard joined perl6
19:21 PerlJam svn merge -r HEAD:{"1990-03-20"} PerlJam
19:21 PerlJam Apparently I can't revert back to an earlier state.
19:21 Muable Mind if I intrude on this highly technical discussion?
19:22 PerlJam Muable: go ahead
19:22 Muable OSDC.il piqued my interest in pugs. I've downloaded and built on Windows XP (unfortunately).
19:22 Muable Where do I start? There's an awful lot of code there.
19:22 * ruoso gets back to work...
19:23 PerlJam What is it you want to do?
19:23 Muable And I don't know much Haskell (yet?)
19:23 Muable Not sure. Something easy to begin with.
19:23 PerlJam How much perl6 do you know?
19:23 Muable Enough perl6, I think. Plenty of perl5, certainly.
19:24 FurnaceBoy spo0nman, I heard you say you work for flickr -- kudos man, it's a beautiful thing.
19:24 PerlJam something very easy would be to write tests for things that should work in perl6 but don't in pugs
19:24 Muable Speaking of tests... a lot of mine fail. Is this normal?
19:24 PerlJam Another thing you could do, would be to try contributing to lrep
19:25 Muable What's lrep?
19:25 PerlJam Muable: look in misc/pX/Common/lrep-compiler
19:25 PerlJam or even misc/pX/Common/lrep
19:26 PerlJam I don't think that there's an up-to-date todo list for all of the various sub-projects that pugs has spawned.
19:27 PerlJam (though I wish that all of the people working on pugs related things would put todos into rt)
19:27 Muable So lrep is supposed to be the Perl6-based Perl6 parser?
19:27 elmex joined perl6
19:28 weinig joined perl6
19:29 PerlJam um  .... s/the/a/  and really it's sort of perl5 based.
19:29 Arathorn lrep (as i understand it) is more of an experiment to see if a perl6 parser can be written really quickly in perl5, and then bootstrapped to perl6 asap.
19:29 Arathorn s/perl6/itself/
19:30 Muable Interesting...
19:30 Muable Also: Any parts of the Haskell codebase which are reasonably painless to start exploring?
19:30 PerlJam Arathorn: s/then/concurrently/
19:31 * Arathorn nods
19:31 PerlJam Muable: I don't know.  The haskell code has been rewritten several times since I last looked at it.
19:31 Arathorn the only problem in contributing (from my point of view, at any rate), is that it (lrep)'s currently undergoing huge refactoring to try to unify together all the different perl5 codebases involved - Pugs::Compiler::Rules (in its various repository locations), and various versions of its own implementations, all of which are all interrelated
19:32 * Arathorn couldn't get his head 'round where the current state of play was, and who was refactoring what where
19:32 Arathorn you almost certainly have more tuits than I, tho' :)
19:32 weinig is now known as weinig|away
19:32 PerlJam Arathorn: pugs is a perfect example of "refactor mercilessly" applied.
19:33 Arathorn sure - but it's then hard for a newbie wanting to contribute to know what to familiarise themselves with, and try to extend
19:33 Arathorn if the landscape's undergoing fullblown tectonic shift the second they touch anything
19:33 PerlJam yep.  The only recourse is to jump in and start swimming.
19:33 Arathorn especially if it's fragmented across multiple locations, as lrep was when i look last week
19:33 * Arathorn points sadly at his waterwings
19:33 Muable Well, that's why I'm asking where's best to jump in!
19:33 eric256 Arathorn certainly is. ;) i know that feeling.
19:34 Muable Meanwhile: I get loads of the following from "make test":
19:34 Muable *** Undeclared variable: "$count"
19:34 Muable    at D:\Perl6\site\lib\auto\pugs\perl6\lib\Test.pm line 15, column 5-13
19:34 larsen joined perl6
19:34 Muable       t/builtins/arrays/elems.t line 11, column 3-57
19:34 Muable Test after test fails that way. Has anyone seen this before?
19:36 Arathorn not that I remember
19:36 mj41_ joined perl6
19:43 jisom joined perl6
19:53 Arathorn joined perl6
19:53 fglock Arathorn: the CPAN version of Pugs::Compiler::Rules is in /perl5; the devel-version is in misc/pX; the original lrep is pX/Common/lrep; the devel version is pX/Common/lrep-compiler
19:54 * Arathorn nods - i worked it out in the end
19:54 Arathorn although I wasn't sure whether to steer clear until ruoso and yourself had refactored lrep-compiler to use PCR,
19:54 fglock it would be nice to have a standard place for 'devel' x 'working' versions
19:55 PerlJam everytime I see PCR I think "polymerase chain reaction"
19:56 fglock PerlJam: it kind of have the same effect on code
19:56 particle_ :)
19:56 PerlJam It chops the code up into little pieces and then swishes it around in a DNA soup of proto-code?
19:56 PerlJam ;)
19:57 fglock PerlJam: that's what an AST is about, isn't it?
19:58 PerlJam modulo the inherent randomness of the process, I guess.
19:59 integral with some languages you can apply the small-step reduction semantics in any order...
19:59 dduncan joined perl6
20:21 gaal cpan-upload --user GAAL --mailto [email@hidden.address] Template-Patch-0.01.tar.gz
20:21 larsen joined perl6
20:21 fglock keeping $/ up-to-date during a match looks expensive - I wonder how it was supposed to be implemented
20:23 TimToady As long as it looks up-to-date when you ask for it, it can be as lazy as it likes in between.
20:23 pmichaud the tricky part is backtracking over captures :-)
20:23 larsen joined perl6
20:24 TimToady but even Perl 5 manages that.  (though confusing "temp" with "let", calling both "local")
20:24 fglock mmm, return blocks are lazy already...
20:25 fglock pmichaud: backtracking just throws data away - my problem is to build a match tree just to throw it away
20:27 fglock but using a lazy tree might fix it
20:29 TimToady if it's any comfort, we're trying to design the Perl 6 grammar to require almost no backtracking.
20:29 TimToady so you may be doing a premature optimization.
20:30 pmichaud I basically came to the conclusion that it was better to go ahead and build and maintain the match tree for now
20:30 TimToady Perl regexen have always been somewhat "success-oriented".  Rules aren't really any different...
20:31 pmichaud A basic match object in PGE just has a reference to a string, a from index, and a to index.  The rest is constructed lazily as the match proceeds
20:31 pmichaud (i.e., don't build hash or array components until we actually capture something there)
20:32 pmichaud away again -- brainstorming operator precedences
20:33 fglock thanks!
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20:41 ruoso joined perl6
20:42 ruoso fglock, pmurias, hi...
20:43 fglock ruoso: hi!
20:47 pmurias ruoso: hi
20:47 fglock pmurias, ruoso: hi
20:48 ruoso any news?
20:48 * ruoso finally got to his machine again
20:49 * ruoso wonders why svn update is taking a loooooooooot of time
20:49 fglock ruoso: I'm finding out how to implement $0, $1 backreferences
20:49 fglock ruoso: same problem with svn here
20:51 ruoso fglock, hmm... ok...
20:52 pmurias commits take eveeen longer...
20:52 ruoso fglock, rule closures are still perl5 filtered code? or they're perl 6 already?
20:52 fglock I think there is a way to make a temporary change to the match object, without saving a deep copy
20:53 fglock ruoso: I've got an idea now - rule closures can be implemented by inheriting the rule grammar, and reimplementing the closure parser!
20:54 ruoso fglock, but closure code can be any perl 6 code
20:54 fglock ruoso: so you can define the language inside the closure
20:54 jisom make it truly multilingual?
20:54 jisom in every way
20:54 ruoso fglock, don't you thing it's weird to have the language grammar to inherit the rules grammar?
20:54 TimToady fglock: regarding something you said earlier, %hash and <%hash> both look up literal keys by longest-token rule.  The difference is only in how it treats the value.  With <%hash> the hash values are assumed to be rules.
20:56 ruoso pmurias, where does Grammar/Rules.pm comes from? it looks like lrep compiled code...
20:56 TimToady so basically any macro stuffs its keyword into the key of %hash and the "is parsed" into the value, conceptually.
20:56 ruoso pmurias, but I couldn't find the p6 source
20:56 fglock ruoso: the perl6-rule-grammar inherits from rule-grammar; the p6-r-g calls the p6 compiler to compile closures
20:56 ruoso fglock, looks better :)
20:56 pmichaud fglock:  there's already a :lang modifier that has been discussed to identify the language used for closures :-)
20:56 pmichaud (inside of rules)
20:57 pmichaud I don't think it's in S05 yet
20:57 fglock TimToady: sure
20:57 pmurias ruoso: the code to Grammar/Rules.pm is lost now..
20:57 pmichaud this is part of the reason that PGE had trouble parsing perl 6 closures -- you'd need a Perl 6 parser to handle it properly.  Thus we added the {{ ... }} closure syntax
20:57 weinig|away is now known as weinig
20:57 ruoso pmurias, lost?
20:57 fglock pmichaud: ok
20:58 pmurias it consited of the rully parts of Perl6.p6, accidently overwritten it while move lrep to PCR
20:59 ruoso pmurias, before a commit
20:59 fglock pmichaud: anyway, we could desugar :lang into a Rule subclass that knows how to handle "lang" - this may make the implementation easier
21:00 pmichaud yes, this can work
21:00 fglock pmichaud: it helps break circularity, I think
21:00 ruoso pmurias, much of the rules were in Perl6.p6, right?
21:00 ruoso pmurias, they can be reverted from svn
21:01 fglock have you lost the compiler state?
21:01 dduncan is anyone finding openfoundry reeeeeeeeeeel slow?
21:02 pmurias i can recopy them if you want, but Rules.p6 is replaced in the lrep-pcr version
21:02 fglock dduncan: it's so that you think better before committing :)
21:02 dduncan I'm finding that update/pull takes several minutes to even start
21:02 ruoso pmurias, oh... lrep-pcr is new to me :)
21:03 penk joined perl6
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21:03 dduncan today, whereas yesterday it was fine ... and even now, no pings are lost, but the website is likewise slow
21:03 sandrina_m joined perl6
21:03 penk joined perl6
21:04 ruoso dduncan, it looks like high load
21:04 ruoso dduncan, not a network issue
21:04 pmurias ruso: it's being commited right now...
21:04 ruoso pmurias, is it a subtree (as lrep-compiler?)
21:04 dduncan I"m committing to it right now, following the eventual update end, but its a small commit
21:05 ruoso dduncan, svn uses a database, which requires much more memory and cpu than rcs files
21:06 pmurias yes, it's dosn't fully work yet so I branched it untill rule are fully working in it
21:06 pmurias s/rule/&s/ s/untill/until/
21:06 dduncan ruoso, I understand that there has been some slowness in the past, but right now it is quite different than any past experiences ...
21:07 dduncan of course, if the server has a high load, with lots of ram being used by other things, that could perhaps cause this, if svn is being starved
21:07 ruoso dduncan, that's my bet
21:08 penk joined perl6
21:10 ruoso does someone can help svn machine?
21:10 ruoso it is really in a bad mood..
21:13 * fglock writes down the $/ strategy - hoping it makes sense...
21:15 ruoso pmurias, did you commit? I couldn't find it...
21:16 siosiosios joined perl6
21:18 hcarty joined perl6
21:18 hcarty left perl6
21:19 pmurias ruoso: waiting for the authentication prompt :(
21:20 ruoso welll... lrep still can bootstrap itself... I think Rules.p6 can be recovered from svn...
21:21 * fglock adds one line of code to the rule engine - after many unsuccessful attempts :)
21:21 ruoso we can just change the emitter to use the new engine and bootstrap again...
21:22 fglock ruoso: there is a "bridge" emitter in PCR/lrep - I use it to compile the PCR grammar
21:23 fglock (please don't change PCR/lrep)
21:23 ruoso fglock, lrep in lrep-compiler can just be changed to use PCR as its rule runtime
21:23 ruoso fglock, I do think this simple change + make bootstrap will make it just works...
21:24 fglock ok
21:24 ruoso but I have to go now... maybe I'll be back later...
21:24 ruoso too much work :(
21:24 chris2 aoki writes a haskell book? w00t!
21:25 ruoso bye
21:25 pmurias i'll try to commit lrep-pcr again
21:25 fglock ruoso: tchau!
21:25 ruoso pmurias, I'll take a look later
21:25 ruoso fglock, falow
21:26 chris2 ewrongchan :P
21:31 larsen_ joined perl6
21:36 fglock if I change '$match = &func($str)' to '&sub($str,$match,$leaf_ptr)', then the matching nodes get the current $/ for free, and backtracking still works
21:37 ruz joined perl6
21:43 hcchien joined perl6
21:43 * Arathorn gets very confused whilst trying to use his windows desktop until he realises that he killall'd explorer in order to free some ram :\
21:46 wilx joined perl6
21:47 pmurias good night
21:51 fglock when you start writing things like [@{$$leaf->{state}}] there must be something wrong ...
21:56 amnesiac yes, your brain most of the time :/
21:58 fglock amnesiac: yep
21:59 penk left perl6
22:00 TimToady dduncan: it may be that 1000 copies of Fedora Core 5 crossing the Pacific simultaneously is what you're seeing on the network.
22:01 dduncan hello
22:01 dduncan but the problem doesn't seem to be network, as ping worked fine
22:01 TimToady Especially if a bunch of USian people are downloading it from Asia on the theory that it's the middle of the night there...
22:01 integral pings can have different performance to other data unfortunately
22:01 TimToady just a guess, anyway...
22:02 TimToady does the server serve up Fedora distributions?
22:02 dduncan I will mention that performance to many other internet servers, including one in New Zealand, is normal
22:02 TimToady It could certainly be something else.
22:03 TimToady but an ftp server allowing too many connections could bog things down.
22:08 dduncan well, a bright side of using svk is that I can commit locally and merge later, though the merging sometimes has unplesant side effects
22:08 dduncan so server outages are less of an issue
22:09 fglock do subrules backtrack when the caller rule backtracks? (I expect they do)
22:09 jisom joined perl6
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22:16 fglock is this an error? / $1 (.) (.) /
22:17 jisom would / $10000 (.) (.) / be realistic to check against?
22:18 fglock jisom: maybe (lazily)
22:18 jisom although to support /$1 (.)/, it'd have to do some weird backtracking and be really slow
22:22 pmichaud well, in / $1 (.) (.) /   the value of $1 isn't set when it's matched, yes?
22:22 ayrnieu it's normal for equivalent expressions to have different performance characteristics, I think.
22:22 jisom pmichaud: so it'd be matching against an undefined value?
22:22 pmichaud jisom: that's what I would expect
22:22 jisom s/against/with/
22:23 jisom that's the easy and logical way out
22:23 fglock pmichaud: do rules backtrack into subrules?
22:23 pmichaud fglock: yes, they do
22:23 pmichaud to avoid the backtracking, one cuts the subrule:     / <subrule>: /
22:24 ayrnieu matching-against-an-undefined-value is what perl5 seems to do.
22:24 ayrnieu Juerd - http://www.pckeyboard.com/Kustomizing.html
22:24 fglock pmichaud: ok! just checking...
22:24 mauke hmm? perl5 simply interpolates variables
22:24 ayrnieu which simplistically has this effect :-)
22:25 pmichaud the perl5 equivalent of / $1 (.) (.) /  would probably be / \2 (.) (.) /  ... and I dunno what that does
22:25 mauke I think it unconditionally fails
22:25 mauke at least that's what ploki does :-)
22:25 TimToady it might turn the \2 into \x02.
22:25 b_jonas joined perl6
22:25 jisom I thought it was \02
22:25 TimToady same thing
22:26 jisom not for \10
22:26 ayrnieu it doesn't appear to, TimToady.
22:26 TimToady might have an exception for single digit \n things
22:26 TimToady don't remember offhand.
22:26 ayrnieu ( perl -le '$_ = "\x02kllo"; print "yay" if /\2(k)(l)/' )
22:26 pmichaud I think single digits were always treated as backrefs
22:26 Arathorn didn't the behaviour of that change in one of the minor revisions of perl5?
22:27 jisom I suppose there's a good reason the perl5 regex are being somewhat dropped
22:27 Arathorn (just when the entirety of the rest of the world adopts them as standard ;D)
22:27 TimToady in any event, you still have to handle the undef case for /(a(.)|b(.))\2/ and such.
22:27 ayrnieu Arathorn - better than what they were used to.
22:28 TimToady ironical, ain't it.  :)
22:28 jisom yeah, using pcre for perl6....weird
22:28 mauke (see also http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=424865 )
22:28 ayrnieu but if /$1 (.) (.)/ is just slow, that's alright: that's an opportunity for some{one,machine} to come along and say "hey!  Your regex is pointlessly slow.  You should say /(.) (.) $0/"
22:30 b_jonas mauke: that reminds me to http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=510925 and http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=510912
22:31 ycheng joined perl6
22:31 fglock I'm not asking for it to work - $1==undef is much easier to implement :)
22:32 r0nny joined perl6
22:33 fglock does /$1/ never match, or matches anything?
22:33 jisom maybe equal to /<null>/?
22:33 pmichaud I'm going to guess it matches anything
22:33 TimToady probably gives you a warning on turning the undef into a "".
22:34 pmichaud or warning, yeah, that's it.  :-)
22:34 fglock ok
22:34 jisom warning's don't fail ;)
22:34 ayrnieu use fatal <warnings>;
22:34 TimToady actually, it's possible that warnings in Perl 6 are, in fact, exceptions that are resumed by default.
22:35 b_jonas oh wow
22:35 fglock home &
22:35 fglock thanks for the answers!
22:35 TimToady my pleasure.
22:36 TimToady or I guess I should say "ja nada".
22:36 fglock TimToady: de nada
22:36 TimToady gotcha.
22:37 TimToady getting my Japanese mixed in there...
22:37 ayrnieu 'je nada', and it is French.
22:37 Arathorn bunch of pedants :D
22:38 fglock left perl6
22:38 pmichaud What does 'je nada' mean in french?!?
22:38 * pmichaud looks up his french dictionary
22:38 TimToady so someone who assists a pedant is a codepedant...
22:39 pmichaud My french dictionary doesn't have 'nada' defined in it
22:39 TimToady of course not, since it means nothing.
22:39 pmichaud but not in french :-)
22:39 Arathorn presumably it's some weird hybrid pidgin phrase
22:39 Arathorn the kind of thing that Young People nowadays call 'slang'
22:42 b_jonas lol. pairs with nil as the value are left out from the dictionary, just like in lua
22:45 cognominal in French, you would answer "merci" par  "de rien"
22:45 pmichaud oui, que je pense
22:46 pmichaud "de rien" == "It's nothing" en Anglais
22:46 cognominal yes, we are very negative people :)
22:46 pmichaud but I'm not a fluent francophone, so I wasn't sure if there was some other meaning being bantered about :-)
22:48 cognominal with such a name, Michaud, you could speak French
22:48 pmichaud yes, my great grandfather was from the french speaking part of Switzerland, and my ex-wife was from Geneva
22:49 pmichaud so, I ought to know more french than I do
22:49 PerlJam pmichaud: why?  you're an american! :-)
22:49 cognominal his surname sounds very French to me :)
22:50 ayrnieu He must've taken the 'no-americanization-of-surname' road to America
22:50 PerlJam cognominal: Yes, but that's a bit of history that he had nothing to do with.  He's still an american.
22:50 pmichaud PerlJam: it'd be okay with me to improve the world-awareness of americans :-)
22:51 particle_ the world is flat!
22:51 ayrnieu stop lying, particle.
22:51 PerlJam particle_: It's a great big pizza!
22:51 particle_ i'm looking at a map, ayrnieu :P
22:51 PerlJam particle_++ lol
22:51 ayrnieu particle - then you should say that the map you have appears flat.
22:52 cognominal ho, only 249 Michaud for the yellow pages in Paris
22:52 ayrnieu particle - I'd note that, even as you look at that map, you should note by your perception of map that you exist in a !flat world.
22:52 cognominal I would have bet a higher number
22:52 PerlJam cognominal: how many tassin?  (my mother's maiden name)
22:52 particle_ i come from flatland
22:52 pmichaud my ancestors were more rural than Paris, I suspect -- try Neuchatel
22:53 pmichaud (Switzerland)
22:53 cognominal PerlJam: 10
22:53 particle_ mmm, cheese
22:53 ayrnieu particle - then you should not have said "i'm looking at a map", which suggests !flatness.  You lie again!
22:53 cognominal But BooK has a bot that can get the answer for the whole France/
22:53 particle_ the map is a line :)
22:54 ayrnieu it would appear curved to you, then.
22:54 cognominal oops, perljam that was 58, he just want to spoon them to me.
22:54 ayrnieu I mean, if you've a *good* map.
22:54 cognominal pmichaud: yes, some name betray some region. there is a site to explore that. I don't remember the url
22:55 cognominal probably they know better than us in Utah :)
22:55 PerlJam pmichaud: Hey, did I tell you that one of my ancestors was from Bern?  When Cyndi and I were searching for names for the twins, I got my mom's geneology chart (which goes *way* back) and noticed a Heinrich Hertzschle (or something like that) back in 1629.
22:55 * jisom wonders how many Isom's in England
22:55 pmichaud PerlJam: wow, cooool
22:55 PerlJam pmichaud: I doubt I have enough swiss to gain citizenship ;-)
22:56 pmichaud perljam: oh, I probably could've done it if Isabelle and I had stayed married another two years.  But yeah, you're a bit far removed
22:57 cognominal http://geneanet.org/partner/guide-genealogique/result.php3?name=michaud
22:58 PerlJam cognominal: according to my mom's genealogy, the name Tassin originated from a small "village" or "suburb" of Paris back in 980a.d. or so.  Supposedly Paris has absorbed it by now.  No telling if there's any trace left.
22:59 spinclad ayrnieu: you should say that the thing I seem to have that I seem to incline to call a 'map' appears to be what I seem to incline to call 'flat'
23:03 TimToady what is this "incline" thing?  One more than the previous line?
23:04 spinclad it's a lie. sorry. I was being careless.
23:04 TimToady an "inclie"?
23:04 eric256 left perl6
23:04 pmichaud one more than the previous lie
23:04 spinclad an 'ink line'
23:04 PerlJam and inclie is where you put your inc bottle.
23:04 pmichaud aka lie++
23:05 * particle_ rolls down the ink line
23:05 spinclad that is, particle's map
23:05 TimToady "down"?  Is that related to the inclie?
23:06 pmichaud time to zone out... be back tomorrow noonish
23:06 particle_ hey, that inclie is my mother!
23:06 spinclad 'down' is defined as where time runs slower
23:06 TimToady incday...
23:07 TimToady so if pm goes up it'll be tomorrow noonish soonish.
23:07 spinclad or nooner sooner
23:07 TimToady that leaves am to be a downer.  Seems accurate...
23:08 larsen_ joined perl6
23:17 penk joined perl6
23:22 * Arathorn hasn't an inkling of what folks are talking about :(
23:27 jisom anyone happen to know of a simple algorithm to convert a number, in this case one byte, being the H value in HSV, into RGB?
23:28 Arathorn yeah, there's a really simple one in java's awt
23:28 Arathorn also one on mathworld, iirc
23:28 larsen__ joined perl6
23:28 jisom and I'm writting in pir, so odds are I'll need to write it into pir
23:29 Arathorn well, it's just a series of averages, iirc
23:29 Arathorn the magic is in the weightings
23:29 jisom no, it'd be rainbow
23:29 b_jonas one byte? just make a table of 256 colors
23:29 Arathorn i think you can get away without using any trig
23:29 jisom I'm ok with trig
23:30 Arathorn given HSV is defined as three overlapping triangular windowing functions
23:30 Arathorn s/is defined/can be considered/
23:30 Arathorn http://www.acm.org/jgt/papers/SmithLyons96/hsv_rgb.html
23:31 Arathorn you have to do a few conditionals to check it doesn't go out of gamut, other than that it's just weighting.
23:32 jisom I figured I'd upgrade from 3d on a console to 3d in an image with color being the z axis
23:33 jisom black and white's bad for eye candy
23:35 frederico_ joined perl6
23:35 Arathorn on a console?
23:35 jisom ansi colors
23:35 jisom :)
23:35 Southen joined perl6
23:35 * Arathorn doesn't follow how 3D and ansi colours combine
23:36 Arathorn you doing 3d ascii art in parrot?
23:36 jisom colors represent the z axis
23:36 b_jonas uh.
23:36 b_jonas I've once drawn magic cubes with ansi colors
23:36 jisom sort of, mapping the results of certain complex equations across a cartesian plane
23:36 Arathorn right, that makes more sense
23:36 b_jonas I had to change the palette magenta to orange for that
23:36 jisom and I'm not doing ascii anymore
23:37 jisom too low a resolution
23:37 * Arathorn had this weird mental image of programming 3D befunge or something on a text console
23:37 Arathorn with a false-colour z-axis :/
23:38 jisom I think there's a doom in 3d ascii art
23:39 * Arathorn uses libcaca to test vidcap devices all the time, actually
23:39 Arathorn very randomly useful gimmick
23:39 jisom and they say perl has too much white noise
23:40 jisom hack aatv or whatever to have each screen be a valid perl program
23:40 Juerd line noise.
23:40 jisom oh yeah, white noise is sound, I think
23:41 Juerd ayrnieu: Looks nice, but is that ergonomical? By the way, the example keyboard on that page looks much like an HP netserver keyboard.
23:43 ayrnieu Juerd - a trackmouse is automatically ergonomic for me :-)  But I mean that you might ask them if they can make a split keyboard.
23:47 Juerd ayrnieu: Trackpoints can be ergonomical or horrible. It depends much on what you do with it.
23:47 Juerd It sucks for drawings and long web browsing sessions.
23:48 Juerd It's better than anything that's external for focussing windows, though.
23:48 Juerd (in between typing)
23:48 Juerd Same for touchpads
23:50 ayrnieu I never used it for drawing; I don't mind it for long web browsing.
23:50 Juerd Just remember this conversation should it ever begin to hurt.
23:50 Juerd In fact, don't remember this conversation, but do remember this single word: STOP :)
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