Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-03-28

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
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00:42 svnbot6 r9758 | fglock++ | pX/PCR - new method 'perl5', returns a string that can be eval'ed into a new PCR object; fixed a test
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00:54 fglock_ audreyt: PCR Makefile.PL has 'use inc::Module::Install' - is this ok?
00:54 svnbot6 r9759 | fglock++ | PCR - Pugs-Compiler-Rule-0.02-beta.tar.gz
00:55 fglock_ &
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01:33 ColARes hy
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03:58 svnbot6 r9760 | lwall++ | Various builtin clarifications such as s/undef/undefine/.
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05:07 bewest coignard: greetings from myarray :-)
05:07 bewest coignard: PM?
05:14 bewest coignard: myarray said I should chat with you
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06:33 wolverian hm, I forgot how lazy lists work. how would I define @fibs lazily?
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08:10 dduncan has anyone gotten this error from svk when trying to sync with the pugs repository:
08:10 dduncan "Mirror source already removed."
08:11 dduncan I have a fresh install, and I decided to start with downloading just the revisions from Jan 31st 2006 and after, essentially the last cpan release and after
08:11 dduncan it got the first 200 or so, then stopped with that error
08:11 geoffb dduncan, I pulled a few 2-3 hours ago successfully (no errors); but I was only updating an existing wc, not starting a new one
08:12 geoffb Oh sorry, I got confuzzled, it was the AES repo I pulled cleanly from
08:12 geoffb didn't pull pugs at that point
08:12 dduncan attempts to resume give that error immediately following "retrieving log information ..."
08:12 geoffb though might as well, just to test ...
08:13 dduncan my initial request was: Retrieving log information from 8869 to 9760
08:13 geoffb attempting pull ...
08:13 dduncan it got up to 9152
08:13 geoffb Syncing http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs
08:13 geoffb Retrieving log information from 9555 to 9760
08:13 geoffb It appears to be committing revs
08:13 dduncan will try again ...
08:14 dduncan same error
08:14 dduncan makes me wonder if openfoundry now has a limiter on it to prevent too many downloads?
08:14 dduncan eg, "you got 200+ revs, so wait awhile"
08:14 geoffb possible, though seems kinda silly
08:15 geoffb mirroring open SVN repos is a fundamental goodness
08:15 dduncan I did get 8869 thru 9152 before it stopped
08:15 geoffb That's not a round number.
08:15 dduncan I also posted on the svk list first, in case they know what that cryptic error message means
08:15 dduncan yes ... it may be by data size though
08:15 geoffb nodnod
08:16 dduncan however, I can still get to the site through web browser
08:16 dduncan anyway, its midnight; I'll try to resume tomorrow
08:16 dduncan thanks for replying
08:16 geoffb np, I'm (very) rarely here,
08:17 geoffb So it seemed the least I could do when I am.  :-)
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09:01 drrho quick question: where can I find more information about this Tree Grammar Engine (TGE)?
09:04 drrho and: can it be used without the rest of the parrot tool chain?
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09:22 bsb drrho: parrot/compilers/tge parrot/t/compilers/tge, no idea about the rest
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09:35 drrho bsb: thx found it, will investigate
10:25 TimToady this is silly--the only way I can talk to audreyt across the table in Tokyo is to send messages through California and Taiwan...
10:27 broquaint That's the beauty of the internet - you can talk to someone in the same room as if they were on the other side of the world.
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12:49 gaal anatoly: }:)
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13:11 svnbot6 r9761 | fglock++ | PCR - added placeholder file 'lib/Pugs/Grammar/Category.pm'
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13:26 svnbot6 r9762 | fglock++ | PCR - added test t/07-category.t
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13:45 Limbic_Region integral ping
13:53 svnbot6 r9763 | fglock++ | PCR/category - more tests
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14:07 svnbot6 r9764 | fglock++ | PCR/category - added more docs
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14:28 integral Limbic_Region: pong
14:28 svnbot6 r9765 | fglock++ | PCR - removed opp.pl
14:43 Limbic_Region integral - the command to allow unregistered users to /msg me - is that a 1 shot deal or do I need to do that everytime I log in?
14:43 Limbic_Region and what was the command again?
14:43 integral Limbic_Region: it's "/msg chanserv set unfiltered on".  The setting is stored against your nickserv account, so it takes effect everytime
14:44 Limbic_Region great - thanks
14:44 integral no problem :-)
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15:41 fglock what happens if you declare 'proto xxx:<a>'? does it create a category 'xxx'?
15:50 Juerd proto?
15:53 fglock Juerd: sub prototype. almost the same as 'sub xxx:<a> {...}' - I want to know what happens when you use a new category name
15:56 Juerd Okay. Right.
15:56 Juerd What happen?
15:56 Juerd Prototype? :)
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16:14 b_jonas argh
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16:53 svnbot6 r9766 | fglock++ | PCR/category - added a failing test
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17:23 svnbot6 r9767 | fglock++ | PCR/category - more tests
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18:17 svnbot6 r9768 | fglock++ | PCR - initial implementation of ':p' flag; category tests pass
18:18 dduncan okay, now that it's the next day, I'm going to try syncing with the pugs repo
18:19 dduncan still failed with "Mirror source already removed."
18:19 dduncan will try something else ...
18:21 dduncan that won't work as tried
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18:29 pasteling "fglock" at 200.17.89.80 pasted "PCR/category - pseudo-code for usage inside a grammar" (8 lines, 209B) at http://sial.org/pbot/16518
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18:51 svnbot6 r9769 | fglock++ | PCR/category - cleanup, more docs
18:52 dduncan it seems that error is reported in SVN::Mirror, which isn't svk specifically, and is spat out of an exception is generated containing 'no item' when trying to download the revision deltas
18:52 fglock audreyt: ping
18:52 dduncan I tried something different, and it seems to work, though not sure why ... maybe bad data?
18:53 dduncan <break> darren-duncans-power-mac-g4:~ darrenduncan$ svk sync //pugs_try2/mirror
18:53 dduncan <break> Syncing http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs
18:53 dduncan <break> Retrieving log information from 9153 to 9768
18:53 dduncan <break> Mirror source already removed.
18:53 dduncan <break> darren-duncans-power-mac-g4:~ darrenduncan$ svk sync //pugs_try2/mirror -s 9153
18:53 dduncan <break> Syncing http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs
18:54 dduncan <break> Retrieving log information from 9153 to 9768
18:54 dduncan <break> Committed revision 334 from revision 9153.
18:54 dduncan <break>
18:54 dduncan so it seems using the explicit -s for the next revision, rather than it going there implicitly, makes it move
18:56 dduncan I think the difference here is that perhaps a revision had data that svn couldn't handle, and this approach made the 9152..9153 into a skip rather than a delta, or something, so different code was run than that which had a problem ... this is speculation
19:05 dduncan okay, now I'm up to date
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19:18 svnbot6 r9770 | fglock++ | PCR - TODO update
19:20 fglock pmichaud: ping
19:20 pmichaud hello, fglock
19:21 fglock I'm trying to find out how to integrate grammars and categories - see http://sial.org/pbot/16518
19:22 pmichaud you mean things like infix:, statement_modifier:, etc?
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19:22 fglock the idea is that when you define a new sub/macro they will add themselves to the category
19:22 fglock yes
19:23 pmichaud I was actually going to do that semantically when new subs/macros are defined with a special test, as opposed to trying to make it quite *that* automatic
19:23 pmichaud i.e., if the sub name has a grammatical category in it, then figure out where it should go
19:24 buu Hrm. What is the status on p6-evalbot anyway?
19:25 pmichaud I haven't been thinking of grammatical categories as objects in their own right, except maybe there would be a correspondence to hashes somewhere
19:25 pmichaud (it's possible that's flawed thinking on my part -- I just haven't gotten to that binding yet)
19:25 fglock I'm following audreyt idea to implement a 'fat' grammar
19:25 pmichaud I haven't seen that idea yet -- what's a 'fat' grammar?
19:26 fglock I'm thinking of grammar categories as a special kind of rule object
19:26 fglock that's my words :)
19:26 fglock the idea is to return an AST from the match
19:28 pmichaud I'm not sure the grammatical categories generalize quite that far.
19:28 fglock such that you can match->emit, with optional steps in the middle
19:29 pmichaud I'm getting ready to send an announcement to p6c, but I've checked in the PGE version of a Perl6 parser into languages/perl6 in the Parrot repository
19:29 pmichaud http://svn.perl.org/parrot/trunk/languages/perl6/
19:29 fglock yes - I saw it
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20:12 svnbot6 r9771 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/Rosetta/ : updated the Language.pod section on transactions
20:18 svnbot6 r9772 | fglock++ | PCR/category - first steps to return an AST in the category match
20:22 ColARes .
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20:48 svnbot6 r9773 | fglock++ | PCR/category - partially reverted last change; no AST yet
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21:06 svnbot6 r9774 | fglock++ | PCR/category status: current tests pass; uncomment line 117 of
21:06 svnbot6 r9774 | fglock++ | 07-category.t for a match-tree dump; the idea is to transform
21:06 svnbot6 r9774 | fglock++ | (internally) this tree into an AST; see SYNOPSIS for how this module
21:06 svnbot6 r9774 | fglock++ | could be used inside a Grammar
21:12 TimToady sub shower { atomic {...
21:12 audreyt "sub shower is atomic" is the current S17 form
21:13 fglock audreyt: hi!
21:13 audreyt fglock: hey! I saw your amazing work :)
21:14 fglock do you think the usage makes sense?
21:14 audreyt aye.
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21:15 audreyt also, have you tackled listfix aka 1 Y 2 Y 3?
21:15 audreyt (I've got that in the Hs version of OpTable)
21:15 audreyt listfix = infix+assoc<list>
21:15 fglock I think so - I've not tested yet :)  - see the templates table
21:16 audreyt also, you need to commit eagerly for token-level parsing
21:16 audreyt iirc they never backtrack
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21:17 fglock 'infix_list' => '<tight> [ <op> <tight> ]+'
21:17 fglock ok
21:17 audreyt well, not quite
21:17 audreyt that is the chain one
21:18 audreyt listfix requires the same op
21:18 fglock it is the same op - this is just the template
21:18 audreyt <tight> <op> [<tight> $<op>]*
21:19 fglock it is compiled to $op:=(<'...'>)
21:19 audreyt (where $<op> means something like \1)
21:19 audreyt oh ok... still, you need to allow for trailing comma
21:19 audreyt <tight> <op> [<tight> <op>]*
21:20 audreyt is still correct (I think all assoc<list> allows trailing.)
21:20 fglock comma is special? or can you have '1 Y 2 Y' ?
21:21 audreyt I think you could... there is no mention about Y in the canon, but trailing semi is allowed as well
21:21 pmichaud PGE allows comma (and semicolons) to have null terms.  I dunno about '1 Y 2 Y'
21:21 fglock any problems are easy to fix, I think - just change the template (and pray)
21:21 audreyt I think it's better for consistency for all listfix to trail
21:21 audreyt otherwise we need another trait (shudder)
21:21 pmichaud I already think it's somewhat per-operator
21:21 PerlJam a trailing Y would  be weird though
21:22 pmichaud is it possible to have  something like (from S09)   $a[3;;4]   ?
21:22 audreyt PerlJam: true, though it wouldn't hurt either, or would it
21:22 PerlJam audreyt: I don't know, but I get the feeling that it may matter
21:22 PerlJam I think comma and semi should be special
21:22 audreyt pmichaud: doesn't it just mean $a[3;4] ?
21:23 audreyt (both p5 and pugs currently collapses [1,,,3] to mean [1,2])
21:23 audreyt fglock: so maybe the template is really
21:24 audreyt <tight> <op>+ [<tight> <op>+]* <tight>?
21:24 pmichaud I really think it needs to be per-op, unless we want trailing &, |, etc also
21:24 pmichaud i.e., I don't think a trailing op is automatic simply because something is "listfix"
21:24 PerlJam audreyt: [1,,,3] seems like it would be syntactically useful as something other than [1,3]
21:25 fglock audreyt: I think so - I'll add some tests and try
21:25 PerlJam same for ;
21:25 audreyt PerlJam: I don't neccessarily disagree, I'm just describing current behaviour :)
21:25 pmichaud loop ($a;;$b) { ... }   comes to mind
21:26 pmichaud (depending on how one decides to parse that)
21:26 audreyt it's a special form via macro already...
21:26 audreyt it's not arbitrary statements* inside that loop ()
21:26 audreyt so not sure that applies
21:26 pmichaud s/statements/expressions?
21:27 pmichaud semicolons are both expression separators (e.g., from S09) and statement terminators
21:27 audreyt expression. you are correct
21:27 audreyt but, my point is that
21:27 TimToady }}; shower()
21:27 audreyt loop ($a;$b;$c;$d)
21:27 audreyt is illegal
21:28 audreyt which means we are not using the general expresison prec parser inside the ()
21:28 pmichaud depending on where we decide to trap the illegality, yes
21:28 audreyt s/using/rlelying on/
21:28 audreyt aye
21:28 pmichaud we don't have to necessarily trap it syntactically :-)
21:28 audreyt I'd prefer that, but sure :)
21:29 audreyt but I'm find with another trait to describe trailingness. it's just I can't quite see a case where implicit trailingness is going to hurt.
21:29 svnbot6 r9775 | fglock++ | PCR/TODO - added some examples to test later
21:29 pmichaud I'm uncomfortable with Y, &, and |
21:29 * fglock needs to go :(
21:29 pmichaud although I can see arguments in favor of them all
21:29 fglock &
21:29 fglock left perl6
21:30 audreyt my $choice = (
21:30 audreyt  $foo |
21:30 audreyt  $bar |
21:30 audreyt  $baz |
21:30 FurnaceBoy is now known as FB|afk
21:30 audreyt );
21:30 pmichaud interesting, Perl 6 rules explicitly disallowed this sort of thing :-)
21:31 PerlJam different context though :)
21:31 pmichaud however I agree with you that having the null trailing op is a sane choice
21:31 pmichaud I'm just not sure we want to commit it to all listfix ops :-)
21:32 pmichaud anyway, not terribly important now
21:32 audreyt pmichaud: p6 rules allow it the other way though
21:32 audreyt rule choice {
21:32 audreyt    | foo
21:32 audreyt    | bar
21:32 audreyt    | baz
21:32 audreyt }
21:32 pmichaud I thought that leading | was illegal
21:33 audreyt (as discussed in YAPC::Israel - still need to run it by you and commit to S05)
21:33 b_jonas there's a function form, isn't there?
21:33 audreyt yeah, Migo raised the issue in OSDC.il and lwall thinks it's sane
21:33 b_jonas my $choice = one (
21:33 b_jonas    $foo,
21:33 b_jonas    $bar,
21:33 b_jonas    $baz,
21:33 b_jonas );
21:33 audreyt b_jonas: there is (any())
21:33 b_jonas and surely a trailing comma must work
21:33 pmichaud b_jonas: yes, you're correct there
21:33 b_jonas oh, it's any, not one
21:33 * PerlJam is starting to think that everyone is insane
21:34 audreyt pmichaud: leading | makes things line up "correctly" :)
21:34 pmichaud audreyt: so, leading | is like a non-op?
21:34 audreyt pmichaud: right, in an alternation group, leading | is discarded
21:34 pmichaud same with leading & ?
21:35 audreyt sure.
21:35 pmichaud yes, we need to update S05
21:35 audreyt *nod*
21:35 audreyt ok, I_just_ got my translated slide now
21:35 PerlJam Would that it worked like that for listops ...   Y @a Y @b Y     :-)
21:35 audreyt and I need to finish it and leave for the conf in... oh, less than <2 hrs
21:35 audreyt so, I guess bbiab :)
21:36 pmichaud see ya
21:44 svnbot6 r9776 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/Rosetta/ : incremented main version numbers following the v0.723.0 CPAN release
21:49 nothingmuch http://pasta.woobling.org:3000/smoke/list
21:49 nothingmuch smokeserver with comparison
21:49 nothingmuch tag support coming tomorrow
21:49 integral nothingmuch++
21:49 nothingmuch hopefully we can generalize runcores/platforms/whatever to tags
21:50 b_jonas left perl6
21:50 nothingmuch the results inside it are C::P::Session with some dummy fails
21:50 nothingmuch get it here: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/repos/C​atalyst/trunk/examples/SmokeServer/
21:51 nothingmuch if anybody with mad html skillzz wants to fix it up a bit, please do
21:51 nothingmuch in the future i hope it'll be a two pane view thing
21:52 nothingmuch with test result lists on the left
21:52 nothingmuch the >> link popping a matrix on the right
21:52 nothingmuch and a + link to add any report to the matrix as a comparison
21:54 pdcawley_ joined perl6
22:02 nothingmuch anyway, does anybody have any feedback/complaints/praise about the existing server that I should know about?
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22:47 audreyt flock: feel free to upload http://perlcabal.org/~autrijus/tm​p/Pugs-Compiler-Rule-0.02.tar.gz
22:55 TimToady s/flock/fglock/
22:56 nothingmuch good night
22:56 nothingmuch oh, audreyt: got any smokeserver wishes?
22:57 stevan__ hey audreyt, TimToady how is .jp
22:57 stevan__ is now known as stevan
22:57 TimToady As long as you're here, fglock, xxx:<+> has to be considered just a funny looking name.  It's the grammar's responsibility (somehow) to pull in any existing xxx and newly created xxx and combine them into any rules or %hash that references them.
22:58 TimToady Today .jp is windy but clear, which is a refreshing change from the haze of the last two days.
22:59 TimToady pmichaud: see Timtoady[-2].
22:59 stevan TimToady: cool, are you just all at the hackathon or the conf?
22:59 TimToady stevan: just about to go to the conf in 10 minutes.
23:00 TimToady supposing a grammatical category shows up in %xxx, then we need two ways to deal with it.
23:01 TimToady first, if we want one category to hide another, you can get away with a mixin style of
23:01 TimToady rule { %xxx | %yyy | %zzz }
23:01 TimToady but there are some syntactic categories that have to be magically combined like compile-time roles:
23:02 TimToady rule { %xxx_or_yyy_or_zzz }
23:02 TimToady that is, the longest-token rule is applies in parallel across all the categories simultaneously.
23:02 TimToady that's why the magic hash was invented (or more accurately, is scheduled to be invented :)
23:03 nothingmuch =)
23:03 nothingmuch i like that
23:04 TimToady well, I'd better go finish abluting before minnasama wants to go.
23:07 rafl joined perl6
23:13 TimToady j
23:13 TimToady s/j//
23:14 svnbot6 r9777 | ruoso++ | closer to make lrep work again...
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