Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-03-29

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:09 FB|afk Pistos, I might have seen some used Model M's through a shop window on Bloor....
00:09 FB|afk want me to ask em?
00:09 FB|afk is now known as FurnaceBoy
00:13 FurnaceBoy s'oh...wc
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00:24 avar FurnaceBoy: what of Model M?
00:31 clkao joined perl6
00:32 FurnaceBoy oh, just that I may have seen one in a box in a store today through a shop window, I could go in and check
00:34 miyagawa joined perl6
00:44 avar FurnaceBoy: you can buy Model M clones
00:44 avar although the company that sells them is ignoring me
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01:08 TimToady ?eval 1+1
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01:09 evalbot_9777 2
01:13 buu YAY
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01:20 FurnaceBoy avar, i'm not sure, cos I didn;'t take a close look
01:20 FurnaceBoy I don't want clones, I own a couple of real ones, and they are always available on ebay
01:21 FurnaceBoy actually a usb version would be nice though :)
01:21 avar mm
01:21 avar I'm trying to get one from a friend
01:21 avar FurnaceBoy: does PS/2 => USB work?
01:21 FurnaceBoy haven't tried, I guess so
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08:25 nothingmuch morning
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09:13 KingDiamond okay, so the connect() method is confusing me a bit... I want to dump some raw http data... do I just pass all of it as the first (and only) param to connect()?
09:14 KingDiamond I realized I'm doing something wrong when ethereal shows me wrong http data
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09:16 KingDiamond nothingmuch: any ideas? :/
09:18 nothingmuch KingDiamond: what are you passing to connect?
09:18 nothingmuch Net::IRC might be a good thing to browse
09:21 pasteling "KingDiamond" at 202.46.19.1 pasted "POST /services/upload/ HTTP/1." (23 lines, 705B) at http://sial.org/pbot/16523
09:21 KingDiamond nothingmuch: I want to make a request like thus: http://sial.org/pbot/16523?t​x=on&submit=Format+it%21
09:23 KingDiamond nothingmuch: initially, I did $hdl.say("POST /foo/bar HTTP/1.1\r\n", "Host: www.foo.com\r\n") and then $hdl.say(raw stuff)
09:23 KingDiamond ethereal shows something's wrong
09:33 nothingmuch one sec, reading
09:33 nothingmuch (sorry, distractions at $work)
09:34 nothingmuch KingDiamond: what is it *really* sending?
09:34 nothingmuch and what are you trying to send?
09:34 nothingmuch also, $hdl.say("POST /foo/bar HTTP/1.1\r\n" will send "\r\n\n"
09:34 nothingmuch use print
09:36 nothingmuch also, have you considered using LWP/HTTP::Request via use perl5:
09:36 nothingmuch ?
09:40 nothingmuch rgs: thanks for the Tie::RefHash fix =)
09:41 rgs woot
09:41 nothingmuch btw, is it a separate module too?
09:42 rgs no, it's only core
09:42 nothingmuch as in, can Random::InsideOutObjectFramework rely on a version?
09:42 nothingmuch hmm
09:42 nothingmuch shame
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09:42 rgs but you can CPAN-ize it if you want to
09:43 nothingmuch should I ask the author? p5p?
09:43 rgs say that you want to do so on P5P, and don't fork.
09:43 nothingmuch okay
09:44 rgs and your Makefile.PL should override INSTALLDIRS
09:44 nothingmuch it's not worth forking
09:44 nothingmuch one sec, let me write this down
09:44 rgs INSTALLDIRS => perl
09:44 rgs (it's 'site' by default)
09:44 nothingmuch okies
09:45 rgs and get the version from latest bleadperl, since I changed stuff
09:46 rgs there haven't been much changes to this module since 1997
09:46 nothingmuch yeah
09:46 nothingmuch i don't know why people keep duplicating it though
09:46 rgs at least
09:47 nothingmuch e.g. Class::Std could be unb0rked for threads very easily now, using Tie::RefHash::Weak
09:47 rgs nothingmuch: well, if you ignore CPAN, you're doomed to reinvent it, poorly :)
09:47 nothingmuch maybe it's not well known enough
09:47 nothingmuch s/people/module authors/; # more alarming ;-)
09:48 KingDiamond nothingmuch: k, lemme try with print
09:57 KingDiamond joined perl6
09:59 nothingmuch welcome back
10:01 KingDiamond nothingmuch: basically, I need to post data like the following: http://sial.org/pbot/16523
10:01 KingDiamond nothingmuch: I'd prefer using connect()... but yeah, if there's no option, well...
10:01 nothingmuch yeah =/
10:02 nothingmuch can you dump an ethereal log?
10:02 nothingmuch and your code?
10:03 pasteling "KingDiamond" at 202.46.19.1 pasted "156 my $hdl = connect(Flickr::" (10 lines, 564B) at http://sial.org/pbot/16525
10:05 nothingmuch the code looks good
10:06 KingDiamond and the program just hangs... lemme dump the relevant ethereal log
10:06 nothingmuch oh.. hangs
10:06 nothingmuch i thought it was sending wrong data
10:06 nothingmuch what does strace tell  you?
10:07 nothingmuch perlbot: seen lypanov?
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10:13 KingDiamond nothingmuch: lemme see
10:14 KingDiamond darn... I'm on os x
10:14 nothingmuch KingDiamond: ktrace + kdump
10:15 KingDiamond nothingmuch: yeah, doing that :)
10:15 nothingmuch both cooler and not as cool as strace
10:17 nothingmuch KingDiamond: it's lunchtime
10:17 nothingmuch i'll try out the code myself afterwords
10:18 nothingmuch and maybe i can figure it out
10:18 nothingmuch (I'm doubtful though)
10:18 nothingmuch also, if you like you can use perl5:IO::Socket
10:18 KingDiamond nothingmuch: cool, thanks... I'll play around until then
10:18 nothingmuch which lets you keep perl6 space feel, but get a diff connect implementation
10:19 KingDiamond k, will take a look if I fail )
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10:36 KingDiamond nothingmuch: there?
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11:14 nothingmuch_ did KingDiamond leave?
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11:22 Gothmog_ Yes. Maybe not voluntary. "13:02 -!- KingDiamond (n=premshre@nat.bangalore.corp.yahoo.com) has quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)"
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11:27 premshree_ nothingmuch: I'm here
11:27 premshree_ is now known as KingDiamond
11:28 KingDiamond nothingmuch_: I'm usng something like this: $hdl.print("POST $upload_interface HTTP/1.1\r\n$header\r\nHost: " ~ Flickr::host ~ "\r\n\r\n" ~ $res); but without any luck
11:29 KingDiamond do you want me to paste the relevant kdump bits?
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11:30 nothingmuch_ KingDiamond: yes please
11:30 nothingmuch_ is now known as nothingmuch
11:31 pasteling "KingDiamond" at 202.46.19.1 pasted "8409 pugs GIO fd 5 wrote 132 b" (53 lines, 2.2K) at http://sial.org/pbot/16527
11:31 KingDiamond hmm... "35 Resource temporarily unavailable"
11:32 KingDiamond nothingmuch: see if you're able to figure
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11:33 nothingmuch . o O ( why is it doing a select  )
11:33 nothingmuch hmm
11:33 nothingmuch KingDiamond: this is really odd
11:34 nothingmuch does the code work on e.g. feather?
11:34 nothingmuch brb
11:36 KingDiamond I could try
11:36 KingDiamond lemme see
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11:39 KingDiamond darn, I'll have to install a cpl modules.
11:39 KingDiamond meeting. will try after that.
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12:27 KingDiamond Juerd: I wanted to install a perl module on feather
12:28 Juerd KingDiamond: And then discovered you don't have access :)
12:29 Juerd KingDiamond: Please create a debian package and then send it to me
12:30 Juerd KingDiamond: I'd like to keep the system clean of "make install"-software.
12:32 spo0nman Juerd: hello.
12:33 Juerd spo0nman: Hello. I received your email but have so far lacked tuits. Can you wait until tonight?
12:33 spo0nman Juerd: :) thnks.
12:35 spo0nman KingDiamond: please create a debian package :D
12:35 spo0nman Juerd: He's a mac luser.
12:35 Juerd With access to feather...
12:36 spo0nman yes ... he could build it there.
12:37 Juerd And you don't need Debian to create a Debian package, technically ;)
12:37 Juerd It's just an ar archive with some tgz archives in it ;)
12:37 * spo0nman always uses alien to create debian packages.
12:37 * spo0nman ducks.
12:37 Juerd But running "dh-make-perl --build --cpan The::Distribution" should suffice.
12:38 Juerd afk again
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12:55 svnbot6 r9778 | ruoso++ | AST-Design subtree in pX/Common. This subtree can be used to study how the AST for different languages should look like.
12:56 * ruoso added a first sketch on a Perl 5 AST in this subtree
12:57 ruoso BTW, everything in this subtree was just a first sketch... please change it at will..
13:01 svnbot6 r9779 | ruoso++ | first change in the Perl5/helloworld AST
13:02 * ruoso has a meeting
13:08 KingDiamond Juerd: okay, will do
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13:17 audreyt fglock: I've prepared a tarball (tested) for you at http://perlcabal.org/~autrijus/tm​p/Pugs-Compiler-Rule-0.02.tar.gz
13:18 fglock audreyt: I sent it to CPAN yesterday :)
13:19 fglock how do you 'make dist' on PCR?
13:20 audreyt fglock: copy it to another path (not under pugs)
13:20 audreyt then "perl Makefile.PL ; make dist"
13:20 audreyt (need to have Module::Install installed)
13:20 fglock ok
13:21 fglock I think the full p6 compiler won't be ready by apr 1st :(
13:21 svnbot6 r9780 | fglock++ | PCR - implemented '%hash' - pmurias++
13:22 audreyt it wouldn't... but we can send off a PR that talks about lrep.p6 :)
13:22 audreyt ooooh %hash implement!
13:22 audreyt wow!
13:22 audreyt that's, like, the critical step :)
13:23 fglock cool - we still have some days to finish then
13:27 fglock there is an infinite loop in last test in t/06-subrule.t - I can't find why
13:27 audreyt k. I need to crash now -- <3hr of sleep last night and a very long day
13:28 audreyt got a lot of hacking done though... and learned quite a bit around YARV and ruby internals
13:28 fglock audreyt: have a good night!
13:28 audreyt thanks!
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13:30 svnbot6 r9781 | audreyt++ | * Filter::Simple::Cached support in Module::Compile
13:30 svnbot6 r9781 | audreyt++ |   - drop-in replacement for Filter::Simple
13:30 audreyt ingy: F::S::C is in - pick it up
13:30 audreyt when you have cycles
13:34 audreyt &
13:36 fglock fixed! (weird problem with the match state)
13:39 svnbot6 r9782 | fglock++ | PCR - fixed an infinite loop in '%hash'
13:45 nnunley What's the next biggest thing to work on?
13:47 fglock nnunley: I'm always trying to find out
13:47 nnunley :)
13:48 nnunley The subrule tests passe for you?
13:48 nnunley s/passe/pass/
13:49 fglock I'm debugging '%hash' - there is a problem when the value is a subrule - it gets the match internally, but it returns undef
13:50 nnunley Ugh.
13:53 fglock Ugh indeed
13:55 nnunley Sorry, I just used Devel::CallTrace to watch the call stack fly by.
14:01 obra woot.
14:01 obra So glad that code was useful to someone
14:03 nnunley obra: I find myself using it about once every two weeks or so.
14:03 clkao obra: i noticed that nnunley is addicted to D::CallTrace
14:03 nnunley I can't hold the call stack in my head all the time. ;)
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14:04 obra What would make it more useful for you?
14:04 fglock nnunley: did you find the problem?
14:04 obra hm. Jifty should have CallTrace support in halos
14:05 nnunley obra: It would be nice if there was a DWIMish output for anonymous code blocks.
14:05 nnunley FILE and line number of start of block would work.
14:07 obra *nod* That could be clever
14:11 nnunley fglock: Digging briefly to see if I can figure it out.
14:15 fglock nnunley: I think I found the problem - the separation between compile/runtime is not right - it is recompiling some things at runtime, and this breaks backtracking
14:18 nnunley Yeah, Test 21 has the wrong start.
14:20 nnunley Err, no.  Brain not working right.
14:22 fglock nnunley: Brain is ok - the program is not easy at all
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14:26 lichtkind sorry for this begionner style question but we had some rants in our forum about perl6 and the question arose: why := vor binding and not =: ? $A := $B seems to be more shortcut for $A = $A : $B or is it that whats wanted?
14:27 nnunley fglock: I'm finding it tempting to add local *__ANON__ notations to the emitter.
14:27 fglock lichtkind: ':=' is already used in other languages for the same thing
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14:28 lichtkind thanks fglock
14:29 lichtkind but isnt it more important to be consistant?
14:29 lichtkind the people here said it would be more logical to the when we use =:
14:30 fglock nnunley: isn't it expensive? the match functions are called thousands of times
14:32 fglock lichtkind: the logic is that people don't have to re-learn, I guess
14:32 nnunley True.  When is the perl5 emitter called?  If you have a debug flag that indicates that it should emit anotations, then you generate code with the ANON notation.
14:33 nnunley And otherwise, not.
14:33 fglock nnunley: that's ok - you can test an %ENV variable
14:34 nnunley Or $main::DEBUG.
14:34 fglock how about DEBUG_ANON ?
14:35 fglock bbiab &
14:36 nnunley Either works.
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14:58 lichtkind ok i have second question is the given/when always tied to smart match or can i say given $level {
14:58 lichtkind    when 60      { laber..  }
14:58 lichtkind    when $_>40 { laber..   }
14:58 lichtkind    default        { laber.. }
14:58 lichtkind }
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14:59 lichtkind i have synopsys open but together with the  book  it is  a bit misleading
15:05 PerlJam lichtkind: your syntax is correct.
15:05 lichtkind thanks perljam
15:06 lichtkind but ist because the match is so smart or because its executed regularely?
15:06 PerlJam lichtkind: what do you mean?
15:06 PerlJam when and if are almost synonymous
15:07 lichtkind im currently writing a perl6 summery in german for our board to convince some people to go  into perl6
15:07 lichtkind i mean this line when $_>40 { laber.. }
15:07 Limbic_Region lichtkind - what does your given line look like?
15:07 Limbic_Region given $foo ~~ $bar ?
15:07 lichtkind my question is how ist this line executed
15:08 lichtkind $level  > 40 or $level ~~ > 40
15:08 * Limbic_Region thinks the given line is crucial to answering the question but is only lurking so proceeds to shut up now
15:09 PerlJam lichtkind: $level ~~ ($_ > 40)
15:09 PerlJam lichtkind: I think
15:12 * PerlJam doesn't remember if $_ is aliased to an explicit named topic or not.
15:13 PerlJam oh, it's neither
15:13 PerlJam when $_>40 { ... } is isomorphic with   if $_ > 40 { ... }
15:14 lichtkind thanks folks
15:14 PerlJam boolean expressions are recognized at compile time and the smart match semantics don't apply
15:15 PerlJam (according to A04)
15:15 lichtkind your great
15:16 * PerlJam wonders if pugs does this ...
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16:42 svnbot6 r9783 | fglock++ | PCR - fixed Emitter::Rule::Perl5 compile/runtime separation; %hash is
16:42 svnbot6 r9783 | fglock++ | broken
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17:21 svnbot6 r9784 | fglock++ | PCR - fixed %hash (last error was a wrong test)
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17:29 ruoso nothingmuch, I'm trying to design a Perl 5 AST (it seems such thing really doesn't exist)... my first sketches are in pX/Common/AST-Design... could you take a look at it?
17:31 ruoso nothingmuch, btw... feel free to change it at will...
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17:50 fglock ruoso: h!
17:50 fglock hi!
17:50 cjeris joined perl6
17:55 nothingmuch ruoso: i am not sure I can help with that
17:55 nothingmuch and either way i'm a bit low on TUITs right now
17:55 nothingmuch you should poke at rgs and TimToady as they really know they're stuff
17:55 nothingmuch their
17:55 nothingmuch and also you might be able to ask on perl5-porters and ger a reasonable reply
17:56 ruoso nothingmuch, ok... thanks anyway
17:56 nothingmuch other possible victims include sky_, lathos, diotalevi, xmath (we ought to invite him here - Juerd: can you persuade?)
17:56 rgs ruoso: you can dump the perl 5 optree with B::Concise, but it's a bit far from an AST...
17:57 ruoso rgs, yes... that's why I'm trying to create an AST
17:57 nothingmuch rgs: ruoso is trhing to design an AST for perl 5;-)
17:57 rgs I've read the backlog :)
17:57 rgs ruoso: have you looked at MAD ?
17:57 ruoso rgs, MAD?
17:57 rgs larry recently patched bleadperl to decorate optrees with extra syntactic info
17:58 ruoso hhmm...
17:58 rgs you need to compile it with the proper option
17:58 ruoso rgs, but at this moment, I'm trying to draw how the AST should look like at the end
17:58 rgs extra-bleeding edge stuff !
17:59 ruoso rgs, I've made some first sketches on px/Common/AST-Design subtree
18:02 nothingmuch ruoso: i suggest you model it after the P6 AST
18:02 nothingmuch but slightly less parse-ish
18:02 rgs what's the goal ?
18:02 ruoso nothingmuch, the problem is that the P6 AST seems too parse-ish
18:03 nothingmuch rgs: IIRC helping the translator efforts
18:03 ruoso rgs, http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/​misc/pX/Common/AST-Design/README
18:03 rgs which translator ? there are many
18:04 nothingmuch ruoso: you really ought to use MAD to write B::AST
18:04 rgs I think so
18:04 nothingmuch also, try to reuse code from B::Deparse
18:05 nothingmuch or at least learn from it
18:05 nothingmuch the reason MAD exists is that exactly for this purpose: making perl 5 sourcecode accessible to the perl 6 compiler toolchain
18:06 ruoso nothingmuch, I'll take a look
18:06 ruoso nothingmuch, any docs to point me?
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18:07 nothingmuch ruoso: not that I know of
18:07 ruoso nothingmuch, :)
18:07 nothingmuch i'm only theroretically familiar with perl5 internals ;-)
18:07 rgs there are no mad docs, you need to check out bleadperl and dig it. (and ask TimToady for problems)
18:07 nothingmuch this means that my guesses are usually right, but I need to poke around to actually make them
18:08 nothingmuch ruoso: TimToady also made some YAML MAD trees of most of core perl's perl code
18:10 svnbot6 r9785 | fglock++ | PCR - backtracking into subrules disabled - t/06-subrule.t #20
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18:13 ruoso is there any chance of learning more about MAD without recompiling perl?
18:14 nothingmuch not really
18:14 nothingmuch MAD was written against 5.9.2 in larry's own tree, and then merged to blead about a month ago as an off by default feature
18:17 Limbic_Region ruoso - TimToady really is "The Man" when it comes to MAD
18:17 Limbic_Region there were a few slides and what not but AFAIK, nothing about details
18:18 Limbic_Region Nicholas might know a thing or two as well now that it is in bleed perl
18:18 ruoso ok...
18:18 ruoso I'll recompile it at home... /me at work now
18:21 * ruoso will continue thinking about how the AST should looks like in the meanwhile...
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18:51 svnbot6 r9786 | ruoso++ | another Perl 5 AST sketch
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18:57 * ruoso wonders if it is a good idea to have an special "declarations" property in the AST for each "scope" node...
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18:59 svnbot6 r9787 | ruoso++ | "my" is a possible value for the "visibility" property on a variable declaration
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19:09 nothingmuch ruoso: remember that lexical scopes in perl are weird WRT perl 6:
19:09 nothingmuch my $x = $x; # the second $x is outer
19:09 nothingmuch $x;
19:09 nothingmuch my $x;
19:09 nothingmuch $x;
19:09 nothingmuch # these are two different Xs
19:09 Limbic_Region and no implicit scoping either (last I heard)
19:10 nothingmuch so while most scopes in a block end in the same place (call it a scope frame) they don't open in the same place
19:10 theorbtwo Indeed, but it comes up less then it did in perl5.
19:10 theorbtwo for my $x (@list) {...} -- in perl5, that $x is scoped to the ....
19:10 theorbtwo In perl5 it wouldn't be, but that whole area doesn't exist anymore.
19:10 nothingmuch yay! http://search.cpan.org/~nu​ffin/Context-Handle-0.01/ http://search.cpan.org/~nuffin​/Config-PackageGlobal-OO-0.01/
19:11 theorbtwo Instead, it's for @list -> $x {...}.  That $x is still scoped to the ..., but that's because it's a function's parameter.
19:12 ruoso nothingmuch, take a look at http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/misc/pX​/Common/AST-Design/Perl5/block_decl.out
19:12 ruoso nothingmuch, I deal with this by aliasing the variables...
19:12 ruoso so the first $x would receive an alias from the outer scope
19:13 ruoso and the second $x would receive another alias from the inner scope
19:14 nothingmuch hmm
19:14 nothingmuch kinda like ANF
19:15 nothingmuch where all scoped variables are converted into explicit parameters
19:15 theorbtwo Another Normal Form?
19:15 nothingmuch Administrative Normal Form
19:15 PerlJam theorbtwo: I was thinking "Advanced"  :)
19:16 nothingmuch there was an article a while back
19:16 nothingmuch on translating SSA to ANF and back
19:16 * ruoso really doesn't know the names for such things...
19:16 nothingmuch and how it's easier to optimize ANF
19:16 nothingmuch ruoso: me neither
19:16 nothingmuch =)
19:16 nothingmuch SSA is simple though:
19:16 nothingmuch every name must be assigned only once
19:16 nothingmuch and then "combined" later if applicable
19:17 ruoso nothingmuch, hhmmm... that's kind of the idea I had...
19:17 nothingmuch so read about SSA
19:17 nothingmuch and read about ANF
19:17 nothingmuch and also, please remember to KISS
19:17 ruoso :)
19:18 ruoso what does SSA means?
19:18 nothingmuch single assignment form
19:18 nothingmuch or "Static Single Assignment" as the TLA
19:19 nothingmuch http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/​Static_single_assignment_form
19:19 nothingmuch that's a good explanation
19:19 nothingmuch http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki​/Intermediate_representation
19:19 nothingmuch i wish that was a category
19:19 ruoso it seems ANF stands for Algebraic Normal Form
19:20 nothingmuch nuh uh
19:20 nothingmuch two different things
19:20 nothingmuch http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?searc​h=intermediate+representation&amp;fulltext=Search
19:20 nothingmuch ... that's a pretty good search, IMHO
19:21 nothingmuch read a bit about all the languages for GCC
19:22 nothingmuch GENERIC, GIMPLE, register transfer something
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19:39 penk joined perl6
19:43 nothingmuch what will we do for april fools?
19:43 nothingmuch maybe audreyt should change her mind and go back to being a guy?
19:44 PerlJam nothingmuch: male -> female -> asexual
19:45 Limbic_Region april fool's is supposed to be fun and I think she takes her gender very seriously
19:46 autark_ joined perl6
19:46 PerlJam Limbic_Region: true.
19:47 * ruoso thinks anyone who would understand the joke is probably reading this...
19:48 nothingmuch heh, true that
19:48 nothingmuch okay, what about admitting haskell was a stupid mistake, and rewriting Perl 6 in Perl 5? ;-)
19:48 nothingmuch it's plausible
19:48 * ruoso is actually trying :)
19:48 theorbtwo Right, and not funny.
19:48 nothingmuch we could argue that lrep et all seem like a much wiser development approach
19:48 theorbtwo Admit that it was a mistake, and say that we are rewriting it in brainfuck.
19:48 nothingmuch so we could just scrap the whole haskell runtime and that is
19:49 nothingmuch april fools needs to at least start plausibly =/
19:49 Limbic_Region I was thinking something along the lines of something that was funny, unbelievable, but was actually true (or soon to be true)
19:49 Ara4n is now known as Aragone
19:49 theorbtwo Exactly.  Go several paragraphs before mentioning brainfuck.
19:49 Limbic_Region IOW - Pugs itself would have been a great april fool's joke 2 years ago
19:49 * Limbic_Region wanders off for a meeting
19:50 theorbtwo Announce that The Perl Foundation is suing Audrey.
19:51 nothingmuch hmm
19:51 nothingmuch that's cool
19:52 nothingmuch theorbtwo++
19:52 theorbtwo ...and has sized all his computers.
19:52 nothingmuch his?
19:52 theorbtwo Point to geeksuntie.
19:52 theorbtwo Er, her.
19:52 theorbtwo Sorry.
19:52 nothingmuch =)
19:52 nothingmuch geeksuntie ;-)
19:52 * theorbtwo wonders why he has returned from the kitchen without dinner.
19:53 nothingmuch i could register geeksuntie
19:53 PerlJam and what would geeksuntie have to show people?
19:54 PerlJam correspondence similar to what chip had with his $excompany
19:54 PerlJam ?
19:54 theorbtwo A centered font size=400% APRIL FOOL'S!
19:54 PerlJam chip might not find  that funny at all though
20:01 gaal Pugs to replace GCC core in motion to create any-to-any compiler?
20:07 autark joined perl6
20:12 PerlJam plausible but true might involve something with parrot being bundled with firefox, IE, Opera, etc. and perl6/pugs as the new javascript
20:18 gaal plausible but true? :)
20:18 ruoso IE and perl plausible?
20:18 PerlJam yeah, I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that phrase
20:18 gaal ruoso: uh, sure, that actually exists already
20:18 PerlJam but plausibility is the main goal
20:18 gaal ruoso: it's called PerlScript, unfortunately it never was very popular
20:18 PerlJam and possibly true soon
20:19 ruoso gaal, is it supported by microsoft?
20:19 gaal ruoso: it's an activestate thing
20:19 ruoso ah
20:19 PerlJam gaal: "unfortunately"?  I then you mean "fortunately"
20:19 * ruoso on the linux world for the last 8 years...
20:19 PerlJam Because that leaves the field wide open for us!
20:21 PerlJam In any case, could you see the copy?  "Industry and open source leaders unite to endorse parrot as the VM of choice for their respective browsers"
20:21 PerlJam <some famous javascript guy> is quoted as saying, "javascript?  That's old technology!   The future is in perl6 and parrot"
20:21 PerlJam etc.
20:22 gaal one thing about pugs is that it's not very april fool's worthy... too many unlikely things have already happened (eg. -CJS)
20:23 PerlJam Or simpler might be "Larry Wall announces today that pugs is good enough and he won't be working on the perl6 design anymore"
20:23 gaal but I think -C.NET may be a 04-01 candidate
20:24 gaal ah! -CPython :)
20:24 PerlJam gaal: See, that should be the real april fools joke.  Just like parrot was an AFJ that came to life, so must they all!  :-)
20:27 autark__ joined perl6
20:31 Limbic_Region PerlJam - that's what I was saying earlier
20:31 Limbic_Region Something that is funny, unbelievable but true (or becomes true)
20:31 Limbic_Region Pugs 2 years ago would have been a great april fool's joke
20:36 Limbic_Region also - playboy.com supporting perl by hosting a cpan mirror - funny, potentially unbelievable, but true
20:37 ruoso so the joke is to make people think it's a joke
20:38 ruoso meta-april's first
20:40 Limbic_Region well, you add icing that is obviously not true like hustler, in an attempt not to be outdone, donates a million dollars to "the other larry" or some such
20:40 Limbic_Region the kernel of truth in it is what keeps people talking about it and perpetuating half truths and generally turning it into an urban legend
20:41 Limbic_Region *shrug* - I guess I am just tired of the "obvious" stuff
20:53 fglock_ joined perl6
21:00 Limbic_Region is IO::Socket::INET and IO::Select currently available or doable in Pugs ?
21:07 SamB joined perl6
21:09 fglock ruoso: ping
21:11 ruoso fglock, pong
21:12 fglock we and audreyt started Common/lrep/Notes-Pugs - it has an (incomplete/outdated?) description of the plans for lrep
21:12 fglock s/we/me/
21:14 * ruoso looking
21:17 ruoso fglock, it's close to what I was thinking in the last days...
21:18 ruoso fglock, the difference is that I was thinking in a few more steps
21:18 ruoso like
21:19 ruoso PCR today returns a match object
21:19 ruoso a match is not an AST
21:19 ruoso it's too much parse-oriented
21:19 ruoso we could have something to turn a match into a real ast
21:20 ruoso and have this to Perl 5, Perl 6 and PIR
21:20 ruoso then we can have AST translators
21:20 ruoso from Perl 5 AST to Perl 6 AST and vice-versa
21:20 ruoso from Perl 6 AST to PIR and vice-versa
21:21 ruoso and emitters, that take the AST and emit real code
21:21 ruoso so...
21:21 fglock did you see TGE in Parrot?
21:22 ruoso not in deep
21:23 ruoso but it seems a good tool to implement the translators
21:24 ruoso maybe it's just *the* tool
21:25 ruoso but I think we'll have AST -> AST translators
21:25 * Limbic_Region tries to refrain from calling any a tool as it is unflattering but being called *the* tool is a compliment
21:27 fglock the place to write about the P6 AST is docs/Perl6/API/AST.pod - how about talking to audreyt and TimToady and start working on it
21:27 larsen_ joined perl6
21:27 ruoso fglock, I started a AST-Design subtree
21:27 ruoso in pX/Common
21:28 YetAnotherEric joined perl6
21:28 ruoso but I'm working on a Perl 5 AST first
21:29 ruoso so we can know to what Perl 6 AST should be translated to in order to host perl 6 in perl 5
21:29 ruoso and also, my feet are much more on the ground with Perl 5 than with Perl 6
21:31 KingDiamond joined perl6
21:32 ruoso as I know better Perl 5, it's easier to write the AST...
21:32 ruoso and it can be a base to write the AST for Perl 6 later
21:32 ruoso and TimToady can help without the fear of making Perl 6 the same as Perl 5 :)
21:35 fglock actually, my idea was to make pugs-p5 mostly the same as pugs-haskell - except in a few areas where we can implement new ideas or simplify things
21:35 svnbot6 r9788 | ruoso++ | Documenting a possible Perl 5 AST
21:37 ruoso fglock, you mean not emitting Perl 5 code but implementing a interpreter?
21:40 fglock I mean reuse pugs AST
21:42 fglock ruoso: btw, did you see the perl5() method in PCR?
21:43 ruoso yes
21:43 ruoso but I realized that the Match is not the AST
21:43 ruoso and started thinking in the AST
21:43 fglock the capture is the AST - $match->()
21:43 ruoso and then realized that Perl 5 doesn't have an AST
21:44 ruoso fglock, the capture is too much parse-oriented
21:44 ruoso it must be transformed into something more syntax-oriented
21:46 ruoso I mean, sematic-oriented
21:47 svnbot6 r9789 | ruoso++ | the root node of the AST is always a package
21:48 ruoso fglock, see AST-Design/Perl5/block_decl.out
21:48 ruoso and AST-Design/Perl5/block_decl.in
21:48 ruoso s/sematic/semantic/
21:55 fglock btw, you can see pugs AST with: pugs -CPIL -e ' my $a = 1; print $a '
21:56 fglock -CPerl5 returns the AST as a P5 object
22:00 zhobson joined perl6
22:40 ruz joined perl6
22:48 svnbot6 r9790 | fglock++ | PCR - improved rule/subrule communication; non-working tests for subrule
22:48 svnbot6 r9790 | fglock++ | backtracking
23:03 nothingmuch today's 2 hrs: http://pasta.woobling.org:3000/list/
23:03 nothingmuch (tags, broken auto completion)
23:04 nothingmuch oh wait, i fixed auto completion
23:17 svnbot6 r9791 | ruoso++ | documenting the Perl 5 AST... several problems to solve... what about globs?
23:54 KingDiamond joined perl6

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