Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-04-04

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All times shown according to UTC.

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05:30 * gaal observes that not knowing the right terminal is an all too common epistemic state
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06:07 gaal audreyt: ah! r66 of perlsyck had fixed the bug!
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08:42 * TimToady observes that jet lag sucks, and resolves (after a 3 hour nap) to get over it faster than Audrey.
08:44 miyagawa TimToady: nice to hear that your jetlag has resolved
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08:47 TimToady Unfortunately, it's just me that's resolved...
08:47 TimToady It's 1:47 in the morning here...
08:48 arcady that it is...
08:49 arcady probably a good time for sleep, all things considered
08:49 TimToady considering all things is what's keeping me awake at the moment :)
08:50 miyagawa maybe Daylight Saving Time disturbs resolving for a while
08:50 arcady ah yes, there's that
08:50 TimToady the clock in my bedroom adjusts automatically.  Maybe if I could just tune into WWV for the time.
08:51 arcady at least it makes the sun come through the window at a reasonable time now
08:51 audreyt I survived :)
08:51 arcady hooray!
08:51 TimToady the sun rarely comes through the window at a reasonable at any time of the year.
08:51 miyagawa :)
08:52 TimToady s/at/time at/
08:52 TimToady audreyt: welcome home, er...
08:52 webmind that's why curtains where invented :)
08:56 arcady or, you could just destroy the sun, that would solve the problem too
08:57 arcady and solve global warming too!
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08:59 ingy TimToady: nocturnal thee are or jetlag?
09:00 * ingy reads back a little
09:01 TimToady I now know where the Japanese keep the sun at night, so perhaps someone can be bribed to keep it locked away: http://www.dan.co.jp/~larry​/pix/20060331/P1020523.JPG
09:01 TimToady ingy: I'm learning the benefits of 3 hour naps...
09:02 miyagawa haha
09:02 ingy funny are you
09:03 gaal wow, that's very similar to a building in tlv
09:03 gaal I hope it isn't some sort of portal thing
09:04 TimToady Does it have one of those sun control towers next to it?
09:04 TimToady Might just be a lunar tower, y'know...
09:04 gaal for a long while it did, in fact
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09:05 TimToady It's possible they really only need the tower for winching in the sun.
09:06 TimToady This whole "land of the rising sun" thing is just government misdirection...
09:07 TimToady On the gripping hand, there's a building shaped like that in Salem, Oregon, and I sincerely doubt anything in Oregon has much to do with the sun.
09:08 gaal nice reaction to Greenwich chauvinism, I thought
09:08 TimToady Maybe those buildings are really rain generators, and the Japanese were just giving the sun a washdown in the o-furo.
09:09 TimToady would be just like 'em to want to clean up the sun a bit...
09:10 webmind well I bit it is kinda dirty with all the dust that thing attracts
09:10 TimToady I really shouldn't be on the net when my brain is in sideways.
09:10 TimToady But then I'd never be on the net...
09:10 gaal what was that with the ping pong table in Arbel...
09:11 TimToady I believe it was a ping pong ball.
09:11 gaal and a dodgy net
09:11 TimToady It got better.
09:12 gaal to bad the balls didn't
09:12 TimToady I'm, um, not touching that one...
09:13 gaal grrr, that was not meant as a double entendre, but there's unexpected use for everything I guess
09:13 gaal maybe that was a ping pong ball and not the sun in that photo?
09:13 TimToady A sideways brain has to be useful for something.  If you find out, let me know.
09:14 TimToady You think *you* have an epistemic problem with terminals,..
09:15 gaal Joyce had one too, he didn't know where to end his book so he made it cyclic
09:15 TimToady prefer polycyclic aromatics myself...
09:15 rgs riverrun ?
09:17 gaal rgs: past Eve and Adam's
09:18 rgs gaal: I vaguely remember some joyce-perl poetry by damian, but google doesn't seem to find it
09:19 rgs well, it went off line.
09:19 gaal http://sozluk.sourtimes.org/show.asp?t=a+litter # not perl nor poetry but wonderful
09:19 rgs http://use.perl.org/comments.pl?sid=5​198&op=&threshold=0&comme​ntsort=0&mode=thread&cid=8108
09:19 TimToady What, the ping pong ball?
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09:21 gaal (Vladimir Dixon)++ # top hit for "literary" and "funny" as far as I'm concerned
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10:53 svnbot6 r9832 | clkao++ | Use tie for AV aliasing.
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12:25 mcummings this is probably a silly question (even if this is the right channel) - but what provides the quantum library? (noticed it in make test output for parrot)
12:29 Gothmog_ all(), any() and one(), iirc
12:30 Gothmog_ http://search.cpan.org/~lembark/Quantum-Super​positions-2.02/lib/Quantum/Superpositions.pm
12:33 Limbic_Region Gothmog - you forgot none()
12:34 Limbic_Region in p5, they are called Quantum::Superpositions - in perl6 they are just called junctions
12:34 Limbic_Region well, and they are part of the core
12:35 * Limbic_Region is curios to know if all of the decisions regarding junctions have been worked out - like to thread or not to thread
12:38 * Limbic_Region checks the mass of recent S changes to see if all( any() eq any() ); is going to DWIM out of the box
12:43 mcummings Gothmog_: thanks :)
12:43 * mcummings reads pod - crazy
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15:11 gaal audreyt: moose?
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17:03 fglock audreyt, pmichaud: ping
17:08 Limbic_Region can someone confirm that the question I asked today about Junctions made it to the list
17:09 Limbic_Region I haven't received the echo back from the list yet and I can't remember if that is normal behavior or not
17:09 obra It did
17:10 Limbic_Region thanks - so then should I have recieved a copy back or not?
17:10 Limbic_Region I would think so
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17:30 nothing_pasta Limbic_Region: you should have
17:33 Limbic_Region thanks nothing_pasta - not sure I should blame gmail or not
17:35 nothing_pasta always blame something you have no control over first
17:35 nothing_pasta it makes the most sense
17:35 TimToady Limbic_Region: just posted an attempted answer, though my eyes are still crossed this morning...
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17:58 Limbic_Region TimToady - I just received it - thanks
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18:01 Limbic_Region TimToady - I was already to pounce on the fact that you had explained away all my concerns by saying "use Sets instead" with "But WTF do I go looking for Sets definition" until I got to the end where you adeptly note that they haven't made their way into the Synopses yet
18:03 Limbic_Region I will just respond with "Ok, so when Sets do make it in to the synopses, which ones do I look at" for the benefit of everyone reading along at home
18:03 Limbic_Region thanks - and good to know that it will work out of the box even if junctions aren't the tool to use
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18:16 theorbtwo Allo, awwaiid!
18:19 TimToady Limbic_Region: yes, though at least the synopses mention the existence of Sets. It's possible that we could unify normal sets with all() junctions, if not the other kinds of junction.
18:19 awwaiid hiya theorbtwo
18:29 TimToady occurs to me that the problem with the "set of all sets that do not contain themselves" is that the closure defining it is not memoizable, so it's not an immutable value.
18:30 TimToady off to $work &
18:36 webmind hmm, aren't there any weekly summaries of perl6 lists anymor e?
18:36 webmind anymore
18:37 theorbtwo Not on perl.com.
18:37 theorbtwo use.perl.org links to them, IIRC.
18:37 webmind I don't see them in my mail archive anymore
18:40 Juerd The last summary was >2weeks ago
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18:42 fglock docs/journal/ is the place to contribute summaries...
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18:48 avar Juerd: hi
18:48 theorbtwo Blink... we have a (+) operator now?
18:49 theorbtwo Oh, it's a Set operator.
18:49 awwaiid thats what you get for blinking
18:50 PerlJam Anyone not reading p6l would be in the dark about (+), (*), etc.
18:50 * theorbtwo ponders starting to read p6l again.
18:50 theorbtwo At present I look at it from time to time.
18:51 PerlJam (those people, too, would be trying to fit round junctions into square Sets)
18:51 avar PerlJam: Some middle between * and [*] ?;)
18:52 PerlJam Hmm.  We've got *, (*), and [*], but where is {*} ?
18:52 PerlJam or <*> ?
18:53 avar Regarding Larry's reply to curly quotes, Perl currently knows how to match some stuff, like q{} q<>, q[] etc. Will it know how to match fancy quotes (outside latin1) even though they wouldn't be defined in any other way in the default language
18:54 avar say q„hello, world“
18:54 avar of course that might introduce ambiguities;)
18:54 PerlJam avar: define your own cicumfix:<,, ">
18:54 PerlJam er, circumfix
18:55 avar PerlJam: Thought so
18:56 Juerd avar: Hello.
18:57 colares joined perl6
18:59 avar Juerd: I have time to talk about mw now;)
18:59 avar Juerd: who had the insane idea of rewriting it?;)
19:01 Juerd avar: But I do not :)
19:01 Juerd avar: I'm at the amsterdam.pm meeting now
19:01 avar Oh joy;)
19:02 PerlJam mw?
19:03 Juerd MediaWiki
19:04 PerlJam oh
19:05 Limbic_Region fglock ping
19:05 Limbic_Region or anyone familiar with sets
19:06 Limbic_Region What is the appropriate way to do all( any() eq any() ) using Sets?
19:06 Limbic_Region IOW - find the intersection of 2 sets
19:06 fglock Limbic_Region: pong
19:07 fglock thinking...
19:07 fglock any() eq any() is intersection - it gives which elements are common
19:08 wolverian Limbic_Region, @set1 ∩  @set2, I assume
19:08 fglock all() is the set itself, unless you have some special context
19:08 Limbic_Region wolverian - the non-unicode version please
19:08 Limbic_Region fglock - my example was of junctions
19:09 Limbic_Region so let me start of by saying this....
19:09 Limbic_Region ok - so he went *poof*
19:09 wolverian Limbic_Region, are you asking the official story or for a suggestion? (I) maybe? the reversed U is kind of hard to map to ASCII..
19:09 Limbic_Region perhaps he will backlog
19:09 wolverian ruby uses %, I think
19:09 wolverian unless that's symmetric difference .. I forget.
19:09 fglock joined perl6
19:09 theorbtwo (^) and (v) ?
19:10 Limbic_Region If I start out with @foo = 'a' .. 'z'; and @bar = <a b c 1 2 3>;
19:10 Limbic_Region what do I do to find the intersection of @foo and @bar
19:11 fglock I had a problem with unicode - I'm on cgi-irc (fixed)
19:11 Limbic_Region ok - me too
19:12 fglock the intersection is (a,b,c), and 'all' is (a,b,c) too
19:12 Limbic_Region ok - that was like speaking greek to me
19:13 Limbic_Region let me start with my example as though I were posting it as a SoPW and you tell me what I need to know (assuming I know nothing of set theory or junctions or anything p6 related)
19:13 fglock ok
19:14 Limbic_Region Hi, I am trying to find the what elements 2 arrays have in common.  How do I do that?  For instance, my @foo = 'a' .. 'z'; my @bar = <a b c 1 2 3>; # should produce a, b, c
19:14 Limbic_Region fwiw - the bad phrasing of the question wasn't intentional but it truly fits my intentions
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19:15 fglock you mean sets, right? imagine the items are hash keys
19:15 Limbic_Region no, I don't mean sets
19:15 PerlJam or don't imagine it, but make it so  :)
19:16 fglock so that you can say %foo{'a'}.exists
19:16 Limbic_Region you need to tell me that I should be using sets and then give me the syntax
19:16 fglock arrays don't support that
19:16 Limbic_Region ok - good
19:16 fglock oh, you should be using sets instead
19:17 Limbic_Region how do I do that?
19:17 fglock $foo = Set.new( 'a'..'z'); $bar = Set.new( <a b c 1 2 3 > );
19:18 Limbic_Region and to find the elements that are in common?
19:18 Limbic_Region oh and if element isn't the right word since Arrays aren't Sets - what is?
19:18 fglock then $common_elements = $foo.intersection( $bar );  - creates a new set with all common elements - it's automatic
19:18 Limbic_Region . o O ( enjoys being a newbie f*&ckwit)
19:18 Limbic_Region oh cool
19:18 fglock arrays are a special kind of set
19:18 Limbic_Region but I really wanted arrays
19:18 fglock if you think hash, an array is
19:18 Limbic_Region is there anyway I can do it using arrays
19:19 Limbic_Region or perhaps can I treat a set as though it were an array?
19:19 fglock { 0 => 'a', 1 => 'b', .... }
19:19 Limbic_Region like for $set1 -> $_ { ... }
19:20 fglock you can use an iterator - but a set is potentially infinite, so you have to be careful
19:20 Limbic_Region fglock - thanks, we can drop the role playing now
19:20 awwaiid multiset
19:20 fglock I hope it helps
19:20 Limbic_Region I just think that I illustrate the need for some clear documentation on Sets in the Synopses
19:21 Limbic_Region fglock - well, yeah.  I mean I understand a bit of set theory so I knew how to do it mathematically speaking.  You helped more in the syntax arena.
19:22 PerlJam L~R, are you attempting to draft such documentation?
19:22 Limbic_Region no PerlJam - I was attempting to find out if I was being an idiot
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19:23 pmurias hi all
19:23 PerlJam Well ... now that you have an idea about your status as an idiot, could you draft the Set documentation and send it to p6l?  ;-)
19:23 Limbic_Region So for the p6 FAQ we can have at least 3 responses:  Here's how you do it using sets, here is the old p5 way of doing it, and here is how you can do it using a custom infix myeq and junctions
19:24 fglock pmurias: hi
19:24 Limbic_Region PerlJam - fglock and I would have to go back to role playing quite a bit more
19:24 Limbic_Region I could easily ask the leading questions but I don't have the answers
19:26 fglock There are many kinds of specialized sets, just like there are many kinds of other data structures - I think P6 set is just an API for many possible implementations
19:27 PerlJam fglock: does that mean that you're volunteering to draft the Set docs?  ;)
19:27 Limbic_Region well - sets are an amazing powerful thing to be part of the p6 core
19:27 pmurias Limic_Region: don't hashes fill the role of sets?
19:27 Limbic_Region they just aren't - er - common knowledge
19:28 PerlJam L~R: indeed.
19:28 FurnaceBoy is now known as FB|afk
19:28 Limbic_Region pmurias - do they?
19:28 fglock PerlJam: maybe
19:28 Limbic_Region pmurias - IOW, if you can do everything with a hash that you can do with a set - why add set feature
19:29 Limbic_Region pmurias - taking the same FAQ I asked earlier further
19:29 Limbic_Region imagine if the two arrays I wanted to find the intersection of had multiple instances of the same element and I wanted a 1 - 1
19:30 Limbic_Region the old p5 approach using hashes breaks
19:30 * Limbic_Region has to go to a $work meeting
19:30 PerlJam fglock: the thing that I haven't thought about too much, but would like to know, is what Set ops we have and what they mean. (+) and (-) I understand, but what about (*) and (/)? What do they mean?
19:30 PerlJam (or do they exist even?)
19:30 PerlJam and (^) and (v) makes sense, but do they exist t oo.
19:31 * PerlJam tries to install the ESP module so that he can read @Larry's mindspace
19:31 pmurias i didn't quite Limbic_Region's last point
19:32 fglock see the ext/Set implementation - they have all kinds of symbols (one sec)
19:32 pmurias i always thought sets can have one instance of each parameter
19:32 PerlJam heh ... I didn't even think to look if there was already an implementation
19:32 zgh pmurias: i think a p5 hash-based implementation of sets would be limited to sets of strings
19:33 fglock they use \ for difference, and * for intersection
19:33 PerlJam pmurias: yes, but he was asking about intersection of arrays using Sets as the implemention.
19:34 fglock '-' is difference too
19:34 PerlJam pmurias: Imagine the answer to perlfaq4's "How do I compute the difference of two arrays?  How do I compute the intersection of two arrays?"
19:35 fglock of course p6 arrays could support difference() and intersection()
19:36 pmurias PerlJam: i understand why hashes  fail here, but i think i'll propably have to read p6l to understand how set help
19:36 pmurias :)
19:36 PerlJam pmurias: I think the answer is that they don't help much :-)
19:37 PerlJam Using either Set or hash you'll have to transform the array into a different representation and then back again.
19:38 fglock p6 arrays and hashes are much closer to sets than the p5 version - support for infinite lists, keys can be objects...
19:38 theorbtwo How is having object keys set-like?
19:38 theorbtwo Sets don't have keys at all, or even indecies.
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19:39 zgh theorbtwo: if you have objects as hash keys you basically have a set, ignoring the values
19:39 PerlJam theorbtwo: I think he means that sets hold "things" (objects) where they used to typically just hold numerics
19:39 fglock hashes are special sets in which the elements can have a value attached
19:40 fglock arrays are special sets which contain 0,1,2,3... and the elements can have a value attached
19:40 xinming joined perl6
19:41 * PerlJam sets his Set upon the television set.
19:42 fglock television sets don't support union or intersection very well - it's a destructive operation
19:43 PerlJam fglock: but the fireworks are fun!
19:43 PerlJam imploding tubes are always a little scary and nicely destructive (for the fun aspect)
19:44 fglock bbiab
19:46 pmurias PerlJam: the firefox you can shoot stuff with are the best
19:46 pmurias s/firefox/fireworks/ #fireworks are a lot better
19:55 pmurias will (+),(-) works on hashes?
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20:06 TimToady pmurias: (+) etc work on anything that has the "as(Set)" coercion defined.
20:07 TimToady hashes could certainly coerce their .keys to a set.
20:07 arcady how does one define coercions?
20:07 TimToady we just had a discussion of that in p6l
20:08 wolverian I think the infix as syntax is rather cumbersome and gets in the way of what is really meant.
20:08 pmurias TimToady: thanks, is the resault coerced back?
20:08 pmurias s/resault/result
20:08 TimToady not by the set operator.
20:09 wolverian I don't have a much better alternative, besides just 'coerce Int { ... };' or so. hrm.
20:09 TimToady An assignment could certainly coerce back though.
20:09 TimToady So (+)= might coerce to set and back.
20:09 wolverian as Int { ... } # Hm. trait?
20:10 TimToady on the other hand, what values do you add for new hash keys?
20:11 fglock would @a.intersection( @b ) autocoerce @a, @b to call Set.intersection?
20:11 TimToady no traits necessary, just "multi method as (Set)" or some such.
20:11 TimToady fglock: probably not.
20:12 TimToady such external usages should generally be done with MMD, not SMD.
20:12 wolverian TimToady, yeah. I just don't like it very much. I'd like it to say 'coerce' somewhere in the declaration. oh well, I can live with it :)
20:12 TimToady but it's a fuzzy boundary, for sure.
20:13 clkao when a array is passed in to a subroutine, it's by default readonly right?  but it seems t/operators/binding/array.t says it can be modified even without "is rw"
20:14 clkao that is, foo (@arr), rather than foo(Array $arr)
20:14 nothing_pasta big question:
20:14 wolverian (in any case, just 'as' is very very huffmanised.. scarily so)
20:14 nothing_pasta are most of the "builtins" in Perl 6's std lib (Set, String, Moose) roles or classes?
20:14 clkao or do we consider it as normal method calls to @arr hence not an actual modification?
20:14 nothing_pasta i think one of the yuckiest things in haskell is that 'map' and 'fmap' are two different functions
20:15 pmurias fglock: you looked for a parser engine to replace PCR, using PGE might be an option (if we can live with a parrot dependency)
20:17 pmurias (assuming you don't hate pir, as I did untill recently)
20:17 TimToady sorry, in a meeting, can't pay proper attention right now...
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20:23 Fizzler I've written thousands of lines of Perl code and I don't understand a thing that's been said here in the last 20 minutes.
20:24 FurnaceBoy_ joined perl6
20:27 SamB joined perl6
20:30 TimToady Fizzler: not much point in talking about the things we already understand here...
20:32 Fizzler The depressing thing is that I don't understand most things in #Perl either, but nobody's paying me to yet, so it's not so bad.
20:35 buu Yay!
20:35 pmurias Fizzler: somethings only make sense to the people developing the parts being discussed, others i don't understand as well
20:37 pmurias Fizzler: feel free to ask if you don't understand something (i have never been bashed for clearly stupid questions, so i don't think you will)
20:37 Fizzler Look at buu being happy that Wassercrats is back.
20:37 Fizzler pmurias: I get by well enough with what little Perl I know. Someone once said I program Perl like it's Assembly.
20:37 nothing_pasta wassercrats is back?
20:37 nothing_pasta to pm?
20:37 nothing_pasta crap
20:38 nothing_pasta it always causes people to waste a ton of time
20:38 wolverian so? it's fun
20:38 Fizzler No, here. I'm Wassercrats, AKA Barry, but I switched IRC clients back and forth and now I'm known by a little-used name until I change it.
20:38 wolverian oh no.
20:39 nothing_pasta oi vey
20:40 Fizzler There were other channels I had to visit, and I decided to see what's going on here.
20:41 Fizzler BUU is one of my biggest foes, and I couldn't help exposing myself.
20:41 buu =[
20:41 buu I am friendly.
20:41 buu Fizzler: I just want you to know, "Reset.pm" has changed my life.
20:42 nothing_pasta this like a troll fest
20:42 * nothing_pasta goes to watch TV or something
20:44 pmurias "In roaring he shall rise and on the surface die"
20:46 Fizzler buu: My proudest PM accomplishment was tricking someone into reposting VarStructor (or whatever it was called) after I deleted it, proving someone found it useful. PM's backup of it wasn't available. But I've accomplished so much there, it's hard to say.
20:59 pmurias Fizzler:did you actually believe your "boycot O'Railly hacking books" opinion, or was it a provocation?
20:59 svnbot6 r9833 | clkao++ | translate all array tests.
21:01 Fizzler I read a review of the book I referred to that made it sound especially cracker-oriented, even for that kind of book. Books like that should be titled or contain content that attracts crackers, if possible.
21:02 Fizzler And I'm no fan of post-copyrighting a technology book. The timeliness of the information is important, and I need to know the real date of publication.
21:02 Fizzler (snouldn't)
21:03 Fizzler s/n/h/
21:07 Fizzler Boycot O'Reilly wasn't a troll, though I doubted most people would like that post or want to boycot them. I feel the same way now about related issues. See my recent post at http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/miscellane​ous-monday-march-27-2006/#comment-19469 about Google.
21:07 pmurias as an owner of Hacking Linux Exposed(which can be used as a cracking cookbook) and not commiting any computer crimes, i disagree but consider the matter to obvious to discuss
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21:10 pmurias i was just amazed at people responding to something which i considered a blunt provocation (i wasn't a monk than, and only seen the archived message later)
21:10 FurnaceBoy_ is now known as FurnaceBoy
21:11 Fizzler The word "hacking" attracts crackers. "Security" is a better word, and it should be taught without providing exploit code if possible, and it should be taught in school, not by off the shelf books, if possible.
21:12 fglock_ pmurias: re PGE it's an option, but currently it would not be practical - but it would be nice to have parrot embedding in p5 work
21:14 pmurias Fizzler: the disscussion dosn't really belong here, we can continue it on a diffrent chanel & date if you are bored enough
21:15 Fizzler Nah, I have to go eat. I'll probably be "Barry" the next time I'm chatting.
21:16 pmurias fglock: got to sleep soon
21:17 Fizzler left perl6
21:17 PerlJam fglock_: Just rewrite PGE in perl5  :-)
21:18 pmurias fglock: i could help you embedd parrot,but i'm not familiar with perl guts
21:18 pmurias PerlJam: maybe automatic translation would work?
21:18 pmurias anyway "The Kraken sleepeth: faintest sunlights flee"
21:18 pmurias good night
21:19 fglock_ PerlJam: see pX/tewk - it's a rewrite of PGE in p5 (and ruby)
21:20 fglock_ if someone would try to finish it and keep updated, it would be nice
21:20 fglock_ I haven't seen tewk here for some time
21:21 PerlJam tewk looks only vaguely familiar.
21:21 * PerlJam looks at the source
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21:32 PerlJam Hmm.  autotranslation from parrot->p5 would be ...  interesting.
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21:36 fglock_ PerlJam: it is not hard to write a Parrot grammar - the actual compiler/runtime would be a bit difficult
21:36 fglock_ but not impossible
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22:35 svnbot6 r9834 | clkao++ | positional args can be bound with name as well.
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23:15 svnbot6 r9835 | clkao++ | tests for readonly subroutine params.
23:31 tewk pX/tewk was a direct translation attempt.
23:33 tewk I've got some new code that is a direct translation attempt from pugs/misc/pX/Common/Pugs-Compiler-Rule to Ruby,  I should probably check that in too.
23:34 FurnaceBoy is now known as FB|afk
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