Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-04-14

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

| Channels | #perl6 index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary

All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:02 KingDiamond joined perl6
00:04 TimToady the only think I can see in atoms.t that might have changed recently is qq>hello<;
00:05 TimToady I wonder if the parser went all backtracky on me...
00:05 TimToady another good reason not to backtrack in a parser...
00:12 KingDiamond joined perl6
00:14 KingDiamond joined perl6
00:15 Daveman joined perl6
00:30 arcady joined perl6
01:07 hexmode joined perl6
01:12 lichtkind joined perl6
01:12 lichtkind ?eval 1;
01:17 f0rth joined perl6
01:24 geoffb joined perl6
01:41 david__ joined perl6
01:55 azuroth joined perl6
02:07 azuroth hmm. anyone know of any programs that can read visio files?
02:08 PerlJam azuroth: you're using perl6 to read visio files?
02:08 azuroth no :-)
02:08 * azuroth runs away
02:21 svnbot6 r9930 | lwall++ | atoms.t took a gigabyte or so of memory to parse qq>hello<.
02:22 wolverian heh
02:22 mjk joined perl6
02:28 svnbot6 r9931 | lwall++ | 1. must now be 1.0
02:29 xern joined perl6
02:30 xern joined perl6
02:32 arcady hooray for parseability!
02:35 * FurnaceBoy_ cheers
02:36 FurnaceBoy_ at MS that would be a "Pass! RTM!"
02:36 * FurnaceBoy_ ducks
02:37 justatheory joined perl6
02:37 amnesiac joined perl6
02:43 nothingmuch joined perl6
02:44 r0nny joined perl6
02:46 mako132_ joined perl6
03:14 scw joined perl6
03:24 dduncan joined perl6
03:28 dduncan well, we're drawing near commit 10,000 ... so any guesses who's going to commit that one?
03:43 Khisanth joined perl6
03:55 svnbot6 r9932 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/Test/ : restored my name to the authors list of lib/Test.pm
04:03 FurnaceBoy_ shhh! that's audreyt's birthday present
04:04 tek9 joined perl6
04:08 weinig is now known as weinig|sleep
04:19 dduncan whenserbirthday?
04:20 arcady "soon"
04:20 arcady like, a week or so?
04:20 arcady look it up in the IRC logs
04:25 coumbes joined perl6
04:32 pdcawley joined perl6
04:39 kakos joined perl6
05:03 PerlJam Does audrey celebrate 2 birthdays?
05:20 svnbot6 r9933 | lwall++ | eval {} should be try {}
05:24 justatheory joined perl6
05:27 justatheory joined perl6
05:29 svnbot6 r9934 | lwall++ | bit more eval {...} to try {...} cleanup
05:30 azuroth joined perl6
05:40 gaal morning
05:41 gaal audreyt: if you're around, wanna gobby?
05:43 TimToady haven't seen audrey all day, prolly $jobbing
05:43 svnbot6 r9935 | lwall++ | Added .= as assignop, so it at least parses (then doesn't find infix:<.> yet.)
05:44 gaal TimToady: oh. I think I'll start by writing the Q part of the Capture FAQ then.
05:57 gaal heh, that's one advantage of having more than one calendar, you can have more than one birthday.
06:01 gaal TimToady: got gobby? want to take a look at this?
06:05 TimToady what's gobby?
06:05 gaal TimToady: a collaborative editor
06:05 TimToady don't know if my brain is ready for that yet...
06:05 gaal # http://darcs.0x539.de/trac/obby/cgi-bin/trac.cgi
06:07 gaal I've not used it myself yet, audreyt has with stevan I think, when they were moosing around the MM stuff.
06:07 gaal okay, I'll wait for her to show up (she said she might have some free time, but probably she's useing it to, like, rest)
06:09 gaal s/sei/si/
06:09 TimToady I hope so, she really exhausted herself the last few weeks.
06:10 TimToady but will gobby let me type with vim instincts?  doesn't say...
06:11 TimToady so I presume not...
06:11 gaal no, I'm afraid it's a gnomy thing
06:12 * wolverian uses vim-gnome
06:12 gaal they're doing it right, with the editor just being a layer over a library that provides the collaboration thing, so I suppose sometime this'll get vim integration
06:13 TimToady that'd be cool.
06:16 dduncan I was just looking over the #perl6 log for yesterday
06:17 dduncan do you prefer the term 'byte' or 'octet' to refer to something that's unambiguously 8 bits?
06:17 TimToady I always use byte.
06:17 dduncan I prefer 'octet' myself
06:18 TimToady these days it always means 8 bits.
06:18 dduncan bytes can be other lengths, I think
06:18 TimToady that's the party line, but it's old news
06:18 TimToady byte hasn't meant anything but 8 bits for years.
06:18 arcady but what about all those 36 bit machines?
06:18 TimToady what about 'em?
06:18 arcady I'm sure there's still one or two running, somewhere
06:19 gaal arcady: I think 32 != 8 also
06:19 TimToady I'm sure there must be.  But I'm not going to fight the language, and the language has chosen "byte" to mean 8 bits.
06:20 TimToady eventually octet will just become a shibboleth for standards writers.
06:20 dduncan more to the present, I think something we may have to deal with is that the term 'tuple' has different meanings depending on context
06:20 TimToady Yes, that's more of a problem.
06:20 dduncan currently, that is listed as one of Perl's standard types, and its meaning is different than what I think of
06:21 arcady what's the perl definition?
06:21 dduncan I think of a tuple as a set of name-type-value triples, where the name part has to be unique for each triple in the set
06:22 dduncan the uniqueness aspect is like that of a set
06:22 arcady python, of course, disagrees
06:22 TimToady haskell too
06:22 dduncan my meaning comes from the relational data model, which is based on math or logic
06:22 TimToady but dduncan's definition is right out of the D literature.
06:23 dduncan although I understand that math also has other meanings
06:23 TimToady and of course Haskell has nothing to do with math.  :P
06:23 arcady the relational data model's definition seems like the reasonable one
06:23 dduncan Haskell is about functional purity, is it not
06:23 dduncan as is math
06:24 TimToady yes, but it knows about positionals, something that is vehemently denied in the 3rd Manifesto stuff I was reading.
06:24 dduncan yes
06:24 dduncan a tuple in TTM is like a set, but that each element is typed
06:24 gaal dduncan: what you described is called a "record" in haskell etc.
06:24 dduncan TTM is based on sets
06:25 dduncan yes, the Tuple of TTM is like a record or struct or class
06:25 gaal TaPL-style tuples have fixed size and anonymous members
06:25 gaal but their positions are of course fixed.
06:25 arcady those are the kind one sees around programming languages
06:25 TimToady in essence, their position in the tuple is their name.
06:26 dduncan whereas, TTM opposes things being addressed by order, but rather says things have to be addressed by name only
06:26 TimToady and of course, they can be well typed.
06:26 TimToady the name of this element is "3rd".  :)
06:26 dduncan actually, I found out where the name "3rd manifesto came from" ...
06:26 gaal dduncan: when you gave your definition, you said a tuple is "a set of ... triples"
06:26 gaal a triple is one kind of tuple :)
06:27 dduncan essentially, TTM was a response 2 two other documents that people wrote about databases
06:27 dduncan so it was noted 3rd
06:27 dduncan I can pull the names of the first 2 if people want
06:27 TimToady gee, it's an iterative process.  must be bogus...
06:28 arcady of course, they don't even give their manifesto a proper name... only a number
06:28 gaal gee, it's a manifesto, it must be bogus :-P
06:28 dduncan that's just a name
06:28 dduncan probably just a situational name that stuck
06:29 TimToady the named-arg part of a Capture is like a D tuple, while the positional part is like a Haskell tuple.
06:30 dduncan what it actually claims to be is  an abstract blueprint for the design of a DBMS and the language interface to such a DBMS
06:30 dduncan that's what TTM is
06:31 dduncan a rationale for tuples being wholly named based in a relational model is that it makes doing joins simple
06:31 TimToady Interestingly, P6 has been pushing more towards the named parameters than the positionals.
06:32 dduncan you don't have duplicate names after joins, causing ambiguity problems
06:32 dduncan and you don't have fields that lack names entirely
06:32 TimToady but all the parameters actually have a name--the positionals are just a convenient shorthand.
06:32 arcady named parameters are less confusing
06:32 dduncan both of which can happen in SQL because SQL lets rows be defined in order
06:33 TimToady actually, we can have nameless parameters too, but they're pretty useless...
06:34 TimToady but I can't think of anything that's quite like a join offhand.  probably just lack of imagination on my part, though.
06:35 TimToady what does D do about name collisions on join?  didn't see anything about that in the Chapter 3 I read...
06:35 dduncan anyway, I bring up this particular issue because the word 'tuple' is strongly associated with the relational data model and set mathematics before that
06:35 dduncan TimToady, I'll answer that ...
06:36 dduncan in D, there are 2 central kinds of joins, which are 'natural' joins and 'cross' joins
06:36 pmichaud joined perl6
06:37 dduncan the latter is a cross-product, where inputs of N and M items produce an output with N*M items
06:37 dduncan the former will match up each name in both inputs, lining them up where they are equal, and the output contains that column just once
06:38 TimToady also known as "inner" and "outer" joins?
06:38 dduncan so, say you have 2 relations with attributes { A, B } and { B, C } respectively ...
06:39 dduncan a 'join' between those would produce 1 relation with attributes { A, B, C }
06:39 dduncan it is essentially an inner join with same-named columns implicitly matched pu
06:39 dduncan s/pu/up/
06:39 TimToady sure
06:40 dduncan so in D, you never specify 'join conditions' like in SQL's inner joins
06:40 dduncan they just implicitly join on the same names, sort of like a SQL natural join
06:40 dduncan partly as a result, it is very terse syntax to join N items
06:40 TimToady okay, basically you have some kind of a URI-ish rule that says the name has to mean the same thing universally.
06:41 dduncan or rather, the signature of join() can take N relations as input
06:41 dduncan no
06:41 dduncan you can still join on dis-similar names ...
06:42 dduncan but you first transform one or both of the input relations so that they have same names where they should match up, and different names where they should not
06:42 TimToady why does this remind me of ! addresses on Usenet...
06:42 dduncan in D, all relational operators are pure functions, that take one or more relations as input, and produce one relation as output
06:43 dduncan the join() function connects them
06:43 dduncan the rename() function is 1:1, and lets you rename attributes
06:44 dduncan of course, if you design your database well in the first place, you would just happen to tend towards having same and different/names where the meanings are meant to be same/different
06:44 dduncan so you have relatively few renames to do later
06:44 TimToady okay, so basically you have an aliasing mechanism for papering over the lack of universal names.
06:44 dduncan so you don't need universal names at all, it just helps
06:44 dduncan yes, rename() is an aliasing mechanism of sorts
06:45 dduncan SQL's analogue is the 'as' syntax
06:45 TimToady I can see a D Best Practices coming out about naming conventions... :)
06:46 dduncan I will note that TTM intentionally focuses on certain core issues related to databases, and largely leaves other issues up to third parties, though they make a point of thinking through that everything they propose is actually implementable
06:46 dduncan eg, they don't talk too much about an architecture for users and permissions and such
06:47 dduncan one reason that I think this stuff or something similar can be built into Perl 6 is that, really, a relation is just a data type, and its operators are just functions
06:47 dduncan it could be included the same as you have arrays or objects or junctions
06:47 TimToady I can see this falling into the functional programming fallacy of hiding a lot of context in the "current execution state", but what happens when conflicting naming authorities are trying to run their own set of functions over the same data.  it gets "webby".
06:48 dduncan there is no need for a naming authority, as all the names are locally defined
06:48 TimToady what the heck does "local" mean?
06:48 TimToady local is the enemy of webby
06:48 dduncan perhaps I take that back
06:48 dduncan what do you mean by "authority"
06:48 dduncan ?
06:49 TimToady I mean whatever it is that TTM is sweeping under the carpet.  :)
06:49 dduncan TTM is a set of suggestions about a specific problem domain ... what it largely doesn't specify is some tangential things
06:50 TimToady If I send out a relation in an RSS feed, what do I *really* call my columns?
06:50 dduncan the 'columns' of relations are 'attributes'
06:50 dduncan the 'fields' of tuples are also 'attributes'
06:51 dduncan a relation is a set of distinct tuples where all the tuples have the same set of attributes
06:51 TimToady yeah, yeah, cheap pun on RSS and 5th column and all that newsy stuff.
06:51 Aankhen`` joined perl6
06:51 dduncan in loose implementation terms, we could say that a relation is like a class, and a tuple is an object of that class
06:52 dduncan but a relation is actually just data too
06:52 TimToady except for minor considerations of tuples being immutable, while the whole *point* of objects is to store mutable state...
06:52 dduncan strictly in data terms, a tuple is a set of attributes, and a relation is a set of tuples
06:52 dduncan yes
06:53 dduncan I was just using the term class/object here to provide certain analogies to other languages ... perhaps wrongly
06:53 dduncan its probably simpler to say that a relation is a set of sets
06:53 TimToady so attributes is another term that actually means different things in various places.
06:53 dduncan but that every element of the relation is the same size
06:54 dduncan yes, 'attribute' has a variety of meanings depending on context
06:54 dduncan an attribute in TTM speak is a value of any data type
06:55 TimToady then why don't they just call them values?
06:55 dduncan we could
06:55 dduncan I just said attribute there because thats the terminology that TTM used ...
06:55 dduncan but in a Perl implementation we can just call them values
06:56 dduncan or rather, an attribute is a slot that represents or stores a value
06:56 dduncan ...
06:56 dduncan TTM distinguishes between values and variables ... as does Perl
06:56 dduncan a value is something that goes in a variable
06:56 dduncan and an expression has a value / return-value
06:56 TimToady I'd like to know more about how TTM treats time.
06:57 dduncan a value that isn't in a variable is immutable
06:57 TimToady since time is what makes things mutable, almost by definition...
06:57 dduncan when you assign to a variable, you are replacing its content value with a different value
06:58 dduncan the term 'value' in TTM is something that is immutable
06:58 dduncan eg, the number 4 is a value
06:58 dduncan you can store a different value, such as 3, in a number variable that used to hold 4
06:59 TimToady um, I've heard of variables...
06:59 dduncan that changes the variable, but the 4 itself didn't change
06:59 dduncan of course
06:59 dduncan what's your question?
06:59 TimToady I'd like to know more about how TTM treats time.
07:00 dduncan for example?
07:00 TimToady how it, um, emulates the mutability of objects over time.
07:01 dduncan if this helps, what TTM describes is meant to be a portion of a larger language, not a complete language to its own
07:01 dduncan in TTM speak, a mutable object is a variable
07:01 dduncan in TTM speak, we have data types ...
07:01 dduncan every value is of a type, and every variable is of a type
07:02 dduncan a type definition can be arbitrarily complex
07:02 dduncan a number or a character string is a type
07:02 dduncan a tuple is a type and a relation is a type
07:03 dduncan conceptually speaking, if a variable is of a complex type ...
07:03 dduncan if you were to assign to a member of that type in the variable; eg, if the variable was what we consider an 'object' and we assign to one of its attributes ...
07:04 pmurias joined perl6
07:04 dduncan conceptually we are replacing the entire larger value with another one that is the same but for the changed attribute value
07:04 pmurias hi
07:04 TimToady right, but I sincerely doubt you make a copy of the entire database every time an attribute is modified.
07:04 dduncan not in actuality
07:05 dduncan conceptually we are
07:05 dduncan but the language can still provide syntax for appearing to update just part of it ...
07:05 dduncan and behind the scenes, the implementation will do likewise
07:06 dduncan a consequence of this is that if we want to, say, copy a whole database, like to make a backup, ...
07:06 dduncan the language syntax is essentially: $db2 = $db1;
07:06 dduncan you don't have to manually specify all the parts to copy
07:06 TimToady or we can just run the whole thing on a quantum computer and really change the whole database in constant time. :)
07:07 dduncan yes
07:07 wolverian that should be fine for databases of 6 bits or so ..
07:07 TimToady but then I always did believe in the transactional interpretion of QM...
07:07 dduncan now, I know it may take time to explain, but I think that any concerns you may not actually have corresponding problems
07:08 dduncan eg, anything that you think you should be able to do, you probably can and it will be fast
07:08 TimToady no, I'm not worried about that.  I'm looking for the things I'm not allowed to think.
07:09 TimToady for instance, if there's never any ordering anywhere, how do I serialize?
07:09 dduncan serialization is external to the relational algebra
07:09 dduncan ...
07:10 dduncan you essentially use an operator that changes a relation into something that isn't a relation, like an array
07:10 dduncan since relations are inherently orderless
07:10 dduncan it can be done, no problem
07:10 TimToady so I saw the title of some paper that talked about the relationship of time to all this.  My question is whether that is "outside the relational algebra".
07:11 dduncan also keep in mind that some tasks people think they need to have serialized actually don't
07:11 dduncan think like your junctions concept for example
07:11 dduncan when transforming relations, it doesn't matter what order the tuples are processed, so they can be done in any order or parallelized; it will come together in the end
07:12 dduncan serialization only really is useful when moving data between the relational and non-relational realms, such as for display to a user
07:12 TimToady I don't mind that.  Again, I'm just trying to see what the relational algebra *doesn't* express.
07:12 XaXXon joined perl6
07:13 dduncan the scope is probably analagous to what kinds of algebra you can have for a 'set'
07:13 XaXXon ?eval 1+1
07:13 XaXXon hrm
07:13 TimToady In any given linguistic system, there are the things you have to say vs the things that are optional.
07:13 XaXXon left perl6
07:13 dduncan eg, with a set, you can add or remove elements, do union, intersection, difference ...
07:13 dduncan of multiple sets
07:13 TimToady In a programming context, there are things you have to promise to the computer, and the things that you can promise optionally.
07:13 dduncan stuff like that
07:14 TimToady junctions are an optional promise of non-interference between the alternatives.
07:14 dduncan since relations are sort-of 2-dimensional sets, you get the adding/removing unioning, differencing, intersecting in multiple dimensions
07:14 TimToady one could write the same thing without making the promise.
07:15 XaXXon joined perl6
07:15 dduncan every element in a relation is, by definition, unique, and addressable by name rather than position
07:15 dduncan like with a set
07:16 TimToady well, I need to go to bed, and I think we're just talking vaguely in each other's direction at this point.
07:16 wolverian it's like two conversations..
07:16 wolverian good night :)
07:16 dduncan of course, if I actually made that implementation, it should be easier to discuss :)
07:16 TimToady nite
07:16 dduncan good night
07:17 dduncan also, for now I'll just name my impression of a tuple as "Relation::Tuple"
07:17 dduncan no ambiguity
07:18 dduncan ultimately, the difficulty in using a relation shouldn't be much more than in using an array or a hash or a set
07:18 dduncan or a simple object
07:19 dduncan and that's it for me tonight too
07:19 dduncan 12:19am and all
07:22 pmurias good night
07:26 XaXXon configure: error: GHC is required unless bootstrapping from .hc files.  Haskell support anyone? :)
07:26 XaXXon the "building guide" on the web page is a 404
07:26 rgs install ghc ?
07:27 XaXXon oh I thought that was what I was doing
07:27 XaXXon I downloaded ghc-6.4.2.xxxxxxxx, untarred it and read the README and it said to run ./configure
07:28 XaXXon and it gave that error..
07:28 XaXXon I see.. I'm supposed to start from a binary release..
07:28 rgs yes
07:28 XaXXon of course there's no universal os x build
07:29 XaXXon I guess I rosetta bootstrap
07:30 azuroth joined perl6
07:34 XaXXon sigh.. too hard :(
07:36 rgs I don't use OS X :/
07:38 pmurias XaXXon: maybe try compiling from .hc's
07:38 drrho joined perl6
07:38 XaXXon no, actually I just grabbed the wrong package..
07:38 XaXXon I grabbed the "pretty os x package" instead of the "unixy os x package"
07:39 XaXXon so there was no "ghc", there was "GHC Compiler Kit.app"
07:39 XaXXon doing the stuff from .hc files is waaay more than I'm prepared for.. I read a tad about that..
07:40 pmurias i use gentoo, so i never had any problems, just a quick emerge ghc-bin
07:40 XaXXon yeah.. darwin is a pita sometimes
07:43 pmurias getting the graphic card working is the biggest pita on gentoo, everything else just works (except true type fonts in xterms)
07:43 XaXXon yeah, I've run gentoo
07:43 pmurias why did you switch?
07:44 ayrnieu everybody was doing it.
07:44 ayrnieu the computers were so pretty.
07:44 XaXXon switch?  oh I haven't
07:44 ayrnieu Mac people sneered at me for twisting to adapt to inhumane interfaces.
07:44 XaXXon I have a windows box, a linux box, and a mac (actually 2 counting my powerbook) in my office
07:45 XaXXon the new mac minis are so sweet, I had to grab one
07:45 ayrnieu the initial state, where you're just learning and willing to adapt because you want to get a water-runs-downhill view of life in OSX, is very very pleasant, because Apple loves those who do what Apple says.
07:46 XaXXon yeah, a lot of it pisses me off, I'll go with that
07:46 XaXXon it's not for power users.. but if you're sitting in an app doing non-coding type work, it's nice
07:46 XaXXon I use iMovie and iDVD a lot
07:46 ayrnieu life past that probably depends on how 'twisted' you are.
07:47 XaXXon but mostly I use it as a tiny, quiet dual-core unix-y system
07:47 XaXXon if it didn't have so many damn wires coming out of it, I'd probably lose it
07:47 pmurias i just use xterm's and firefox and the gimp if i do masochistic script-fu scripting
07:48 XaXXon GHC was thinking about building from source.. but oh well..
07:48 XaXXon I should be able to install pugs now?
07:49 XaXXon or not
07:49 pmurias is there a terminal emulator which can display images(no as backgrounds) but as part of the text flow?
07:50 XaXXon would it wrap vertically?
07:50 XaXXon I mean.. err.. huh?
07:50 ayrnieu pmurias - cleverness along w3m's lines?
07:51 ayrnieu someone wanted such a thing a while ago, and I thought them a bit crazy, but that suddenly makes sense for some new-type IF games.
07:52 pmurias it makes sense for doing a lot of stuff
07:52 ayrnieu I don't see those yet, though.
07:53 pmurias you could do: icat image.png | filter1 | filter2 and the image would display filtered twice
07:53 ayrnieu that has nothing to do with your terminal emulator.
07:54 pmurias i spoils the fun if it displays in a new window
07:55 Santana joined perl6
07:55 ayrnieu the view-jpg at the end of that stream is only part that matters.
07:56 ayrnieu it could talk to X or it could talk to your terminal; your terminal can't possibly care about the filtering that happens up to then.
07:58 pmurias visiting a friend&
07:59 Santana left perl6
08:01 * integral has done pipelines like that for video... (ffplay/ffmpeg work fine on pipes)
08:15 KingDillyDilly joined perl6
08:23 svnbot6 r9936 | Darren_Duncan++ | trunk/Rosetta/ : a few minor updates; this now corresponds to the Perl 5 version's 0.724.0 CPAN release
08:24 dduncan er, NOW I'm really going to be gone
08:25 dduncan Larry, if you backlog and see this, and you're looking at the TTM stuff online, make sure to see the Chapter 4 of the 3rd edition, and not the Chapter 3 of the 2nd edition, which may be what you had seen online before a few days ago ... significant improvements
08:25 dduncan or it may not change your impression at all, who knows
08:26 dduncan regardless, what I propose for Perl 6 is only a small subset of what is mentioned there, and so the Relation for Perl 6 is essentially just an object, and is as mutable as a Perl 'Array' or 'Set' or 'Hash' etc
08:27 dduncan I'll defer further discussions until I have an implementation ... any week now
08:27 dduncan so to avoid us accidentally speaking past each other
08:28 dduncan er, make that, TimToady, if you see this ... in case your client highlights your nick
08:29 dduncan good night, anyway
08:29 wolverian good night :)
08:33 dduncan left perl6
08:33 KingDillyDilly The future of Perl depends on TimToady reading the above message? :-/
08:35 KingDillyDilly Someone should invent email or something.
08:36 XaXXon or usenet
08:36 XaXXon now I know why perl6 is taking so long
08:36 buu Pssh. Email sucks.
08:39 integral is now known as ntgrl
08:43 KingDiamond joined perl6
08:44 KingDillyDilly Diamonds can't cut Dillies.
08:44 integral joined perl6
08:58 chris2 joined perl6
09:22 nothingmuch joined perl6
09:24 nothingmuch pmurias: ping
09:25 Khisanth joined perl6
09:54 KingDillyDilly joined perl6
10:07 david__ joined perl6
10:09 _bernhard joined perl6
10:11 iblechbot joined perl6
10:12 PolettiX joined perl6
10:15 pmurias nothingmuch: pong
10:15 pmurias i'll be back in 1h
10:28 pmurias b, raining
10:30 KingDiamond joined perl6
10:33 ingy hola
10:36 elmex joined perl6
11:01 ingy elk
11:02 pmurias ?
11:10 _bernhard pmurias: Just cleanup up some Parrot_init() calls in Parrot
11:19 nothingmuch hola ingy
11:23 pmurias _berngard: which one should i clean up?
11:30 _bernhard Sorry, I meant that I just cleaned up Parrot_init() calls. Parrot SVN r12217
11:35 nothingmuch pmurias: got /msg?
11:42 pmurias no
11:46 pmurias __bernhard: i'm recompiling parrot to see if it still works
11:50 nothingmuch pmurias: mail me an ssh key
11:51 nothingmuch pmurias: or maybe /msg on irc.perl.org?
11:51 pmurias i'll msg on irc.perl.org
11:52 pmurias joined perl6
11:57 nothingmuch pmurias: urf, got nothing from yo on perl.org
11:57 nnunley joined perl6
11:58 pmurias pmurias: sent now
12:01 nothingmuch pmurias: are you messaging in the correct network?
12:01 nothingmuch i got nothing except the "here i am"
12:01 nothingmuch freenode--
12:03 KingDillyDilly left perl6
12:13 turrepurre joined perl6
12:20 kolibrie joined perl6
12:27 Limbic_Region joined perl6
12:34 pmurias nothingmuch: msg the key to you
12:34 pmurias s/msg/msg'ed/
12:35 pmurias is it correct?
12:35 nothingmuch looks OK
12:38 nnunley_ joined perl6
12:55 KingDiamond joined perl6
12:58 cognominal joined perl6
13:00 dakkar joined perl6
13:09 gaal interesting lead: "packrat parsing"
13:09 gaal # http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/~baford/packrat/
13:09 audreyt gaal: how's your time look like in the next... er, 96 hours?
13:09 SamB joined perl6
13:10 gaal audreyt: have to leave in fifteen minutes till... next morning, basically, IDT
13:10 audreyt idt?
13:10 gaal GMT+3
13:11 gaal uh, so next 19 hours or so are out, unfortunately
13:12 audreyt that's fine... I'll work rebooting the journal instead then
13:12 audreyt fascinating news that pmichaud's tree starts to blossom
13:13 gaal ok let's try gobby just for tech test, please connect to sike.forum2.org
13:16 audreyt woot
13:16 audreyt I mean, moose
13:16 audreyt (it works)
13:16 gaal whee, astounding, it works
13:16 gaal you must acquit
13:16 audreyt :D
13:16 audreyt I must blog, is more like it
13:16 PerlJam good morning #perl6 people
13:17 audreyt several friends and acquaintances threatened dire actions if I continue to skip journaling
13:17 gaal .oO( audreyt: I must ACCKKEKKEEK!!! QUIT!!! )
13:17 gaal continuation style skip journalling
13:20 audreyt ok, the subject of this entry should be "reset from the shift"
13:20 audreyt gaal++ # providing obscure CPS reference
13:21 theorbtwo You know, it took me a moment to realize that the Airport Express had nothing to do with 802.11
13:22 audreyt which airport was that? :)
13:22 * audreyt had that moment in Narita @ tokyo
13:22 gaal audreyt: don't you mean obscure capture?
13:22 gaal i'll miss references. they are the longest word I know with only one vowel.
13:23 audreyt no, I mean CPS as in Capture / Pair / Signature
13:23 audreyt the fundamental confusion-generating traid over perl6 calling convention
13:23 audreyt triad, even
13:23 gaal see, it's so obscure even I missed it
13:23 gaal good thing we have you around :)
13:23 theorbtwo Gaal: Mississippi is tied, I think.
13:23 audreyt that's okay, I missed it the first time too
13:24 audreyt backronym is fair play
13:24 theorbtwo Longer, even.
13:24 gaal "what's got four eyes and can't see?"
13:24 azuroth hmm. c# uses {} in some strings, but there's no way to escape them? lame..
13:24 gaal (joke from Mississippi Burning)
13:25 gaal okay, must moose. elk y'all later! &
13:26 audreyt g'alces, gaal
13:33 rafl Juerd: That's fine with me.
13:33 rafl Juerd: How about the stuff of mine you still have? :-)
13:43 Juerd rafl: Yea, I should probably send that some time :)
13:44 Juerd rafl: You were still in the process of making up your mind about ultrabay and such
13:44 rafl Juerd: No money for that, currently. Sorry.
13:44 rafl Juerd: What things do you still have?
13:45 Juerd rafl: Eh, I forgot. At least PBP.
13:45 Juerd I have it in a bag in a corner of my room
13:46 rafl Juerd: That's also the only think I'm aware of.
13:46 rafl Juerd: And the thing I'd really like to have :-)
13:46 Juerd I can imagine
13:50 Limbic_Region Juerd - I had a dream I was teaching someone to dypte dvorak last night
13:51 PerlJam I once had a dream that we'd have a parrot-based perl6 compiler and lo one exists today!  ;)
13:52 Limbic_Region PerlJam - should I backlog for an announcment or something?
13:52 Limbic_Region and did we skip over pugs 6.28.0 ?
13:53 rafl Juerd: You forgot your s/.*/perl/; shirt.
13:53 PerlJam Limbic_Region: no, I'm referring to parrot/languages/perl6
13:53 Limbic_Region oh - that's been there for a looooong time PerlJam (albeit not in its current form)
13:54 PerlJam Limbic_Region: but now it works!
13:54 PerlJam PGE+TGE+pmichaud == perl6 compiler based on parrot
13:55 Juerd rafl: Oh...
13:55 Juerd Limbic_Region: I actually did it for real two nights ago.
13:55 Limbic_Region PerlJam - and it does what as an object model?
13:55 PerlJam http://nopaste.snit.ch:8001/6938
13:55 Juerd Limbic_Region: In a dvorak workshop. There were 10 attendees.
13:55 PerlJam Limbic_Region: it's not *quite* that far along in working  :)
13:56 Limbic_Region cool Juerd - I really need to find more time to practice.  There are just so many interesting distractions for me
13:56 Juerd Maybe I should publish my slides for that
13:56 Limbic_Region Juerd - please do
13:56 Juerd The slides aren't finished yet; I forgot some important stuff, I discovered during the workshop
13:56 * rafl forgot the gcc flag which skips linking.. could someone please remind me?
13:56 Juerd (Prepared them in one hour)
13:59 Juerd Limbic_Region: http://juerd.nl/files/slides/dvorak/dvorak.html
14:00 Juerd Limbic_Region: http://juerd.nl/files/slides/dvorak/blue_highway_bold.ttf ;)
14:01 integral rafl: -c to compile a single .c to a .o
14:02 rafl integral: Yes! Thank you.
14:03 Limbic_Region thanks Juerd
14:04 dakkar Juerd: dvorak.nl is the same server as juerd.nl ?
14:04 Juerd dakkar: Yes, why?
14:04 dakkar it keeps sending me just the first few lines of every image ;-)
14:05 * dakkar uses a dvorak keyboard
14:05 Juerd Lines of images?
14:05 Juerd And do you have this problem on both juerd.nl and dvorak.nl?
14:05 dakkar yes, like the pictures in the slides, or the photos on the "buy keyboard" pages
14:05 Juerd Weird...
14:05 dakkar i get only part of each image...
14:06 Juerd What's your IP?
14:06 dakkar now I'll try to see if it's something on my side
14:06 prefiks joined perl6
14:06 dakkar Juerd: might be 85.45.142.2 (I'm behind a couple of NATs)
14:06 Juerd dakkar: tnx.nl/ip
14:07 dakkar I confirm my ip
14:07 Juerd ok
14:08 Juerd dakkar: Huge latency on your line...
14:09 Juerd between hops 8 and 9:
14:09 Juerd 8  r-rm199-vl3.opb.interbusiness.it (151.99.29.152)  72 ms  90 ms  81 ms
14:09 Juerd 9  r-pi31-rm199.opb.interbusiness.it (151.99.101.22) [MPLS: Label 481 Exp 0]  1410 ms  1266 ms  1213 ms
14:09 dakkar quite probable... I'm at work
14:09 Juerd My server has very strict timeouts
14:09 Limbic_Region Juerd - it might be helpful to show how to change keyboard layout on a couple of the most common OSes
14:09 dakkar it's the backbone trunk between Rome and Pisa...
14:09 dakkar nice to know
14:09 Juerd Limbic_Region: dvzine.org
14:10 Juerd Limbic_Region: I want something that can create Flash movies out of screenshots
14:10 dakkar mencoder!
14:10 Juerd dakkar: Under Windows
14:10 Juerd And *including* the cursor
14:10 dakkar mencoder+cygwin ;-)
14:10 dakkar ouch
14:10 Juerd As in: demo the entire thing
14:11 Juerd People used to GUIs get lost easily if you show them only intermediate screenshots.
14:11 Juerd I'm off now; going to reinstall my laptop
14:16 stevan audreyt: ping
14:18 audreyt stevan: pong
14:18 stevan audreyt: I was wondering about the YAPC::NA hackathon
14:18 stevan the wiki says it is post-conference
14:18 stevan any details on that?
14:19 audreyt stevan: June 29 to July 2 (plus or minus pi days)
14:19 stevan cool
14:19 stevan accomidations? or are we on our own?
14:19 audreyt ingy: accomodations? or are they on their own?
14:20 nothingmuch yay! birthday
14:20 * stevan wonders if ingy has a cabin somewhere in the woods
14:20 audreyt (it's possible that we'll come to ingy's parents' place in Antioch)
14:20 stevan ingy has parents?
14:20 stevan he wasnts just spawned from the internet?
14:20 audreyt surprising discovery, no?
14:20 * stevan re-evaluates his entire perception of reality
14:21 audreyt to quote from ingy's blog:
14:21 audreyt Like my Dad always told me, "Son, you can't always get your namesake domain, but you can always make your domain your namesake".
14:21 audreyt see? he has a Dad.
14:21 stevan :D
14:21 stevan class Ingy { has @parents; }
14:24 stevan class Ingy::d?t::Net { has @parents handles <hackathon_accomidations>; }
14:24 audreyt it's scary that when I wget from http://..../moose
14:24 audreyt wget saves it as moose.5
14:25 audreyt evidently I've been brainwashed
14:25 theorbtwo You already have moose and moose.[1234]?
14:25 audreyt yeah, those are my favourite temp file names on other machines
14:25 audreyt (and then I wget them back)
14:25 * stevan thinks we should talk to o-reilly about changing the animal for Perl 6
14:25 kane_ joined perl6
14:26 rgs $ meta --ws antlers 5
14:26 rgs hirvi velvet_antler caribou deer moose
14:26 rgs favorite metasyntactic variable names :p
14:30 kolibrie Juerd: http://www.macromedia.com/software/captivate/
14:36 ghenry joined perl6
14:41 q[uri] joined perl6
14:45 Juerd kolibrie: Thanks. I'll have a look at it soon.
14:45 kane__ joined perl6
14:45 Juerd Hoi kane__
14:52 KingDiamond joined perl6
15:05 spinclad [aa|a|b] could compile into [a:[a:|]|b:] 1<2                                                    >
15:13 xinming1983 joined perl6
15:13 vel joined perl6
15:13 audreyt 1<2> ?
15:14 * audreyt decides to sleep instead of expanding more from the freshly-posted journal entry
15:16 Juerd Sleep well, audreyt
15:17 avarab joined perl6
15:17 Juerd Wow, long post. Thanks :)
15:21 svnbot6 r9937 | pmurias++ | works now for simple things
15:21 svnbot6 r9937 | pmurias++ | expressions are yet to be done
15:21 svnbot6 r9936 | Darren_Duncan++ | trunk/Rosetta/ : a few minor updates; this now corresponds to the Perl 5 version's 0.724.0 CPAN release
15:21 nothingmuch i need a volunteer to finish off the smoke server
15:21 nothingmuch i can'ty
15:21 nothingmuch i just don't have design-fu
15:23 Juerd What kind of design?
15:24 pmurias nothingmuch: you are not the only one who dosn't have much
15:26 pmurias design-fu is IMHO the part of programming that requires most experience
15:26 FurnaceBoy joined perl6
15:27 pmurias mine suck completly,
15:28 nothingmuch oh
15:28 nothingmuch that kind of design fu i think i have =)
15:28 nothingmuch i meant html-design-fu
15:30 nothingmuch pmurias: wrt the mail address: the only thing you should know is that occasionally (~once per month) i have cable-carrier downtime, that is the connection drops for ~10-20 mins
15:30 nothingmuch and in addition my ISP is filled with assholes
15:30 nothingmuch but soon i will probably have a decent ISP in the states
15:32 justatheory joined perl6
15:32 kolibrie nothingmuch: how long are you going to be in the states?  long-term?
15:32 pmurias nothingmuch: we can make a deal, you help me design the emitter i'll do the html design for you :)
15:33 nothingmuch okay =)
15:33 nothingmuch kolibrie: 6 months, it seems
15:33 kolibrie nothingmuch: cool
15:35 pmurias i learned html/css the reverse-ajax way so don't expect art-design-fu
15:35 nothingmuch pmurias: this is simple layout stuff
15:36 nothingmuch i'll have a brain farting session with you later tonight, kay?
15:36 pmurias ok
15:39 pmurias where can i find the stuff you want layout?
15:40 ingy hi nothingmuch
15:41 xinming1983 Round-half-even, what does round half even mean?
15:41 xinming1983 bbl
15:41 xinming joined perl6
15:42 xinming back
15:42 xinming what does round-half-even mean? hmm, It's from http://www.pldesignline.com/howto/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=175801189
15:43 Limbic_Region xinming - perhaps to the next even number?
15:43 xinming Limbic_Region: hmm, I don't know. :-/
15:43 theorbtwo xinming: round half to the nearest even number.
15:44 xinming so, 4.2 will be rounded to 5?
15:44 Juerd Wha, fuck, my backup ends at half of my music archive :(
15:44 xinming and 5.2 will be rounded to 5.0?
15:44 Juerd xinming: 5 is not an even number.
15:44 Limbic_Region it is defined further on xinming
15:44 dakkar xinming: no, it only kicks in if you round at helf
15:44 xinming oops...
15:44 Juerd xinming: 2, 4, 6, 8, ... are even, 1, 3, 5, 7, ... are odd
15:44 theorbtwo It only applies if you're at the halfway point.  4.2 rounds to 4.
15:44 Limbic_Region search for Round-half-even: If half-way values are always
15:44 xinming yea, I just confused these 2 words. :-)
15:44 dakkar 4.5 rounds at 4, 3.5 rounds at 4
15:44 Juerd KingDiamond: So 4.5 is rounded to 4, 5.5 is rounded to 6
15:44 theorbtwo 4.5 rounds to 4, because it's round and 5 isn't.
15:45 theorbtwo Er, s/round and/even and/
15:45 Juerd even
15:45 xinming how about 4.7?
15:45 xinming 5.0?
15:45 dakkar yes
15:45 dakkar nearest
15:45 Juerd 4.7 is always rounded to 5, because it's not .5
15:45 Juerd .5 is special because it's *exactly* halfway.
15:45 Juerd If it's .499999999999999999 or .50000000000000000001, there's no longer any question.
15:46 xinming so, no matter what the number after the point...   It will always reach the even number?
15:46 Juerd No...
15:46 Juerd Only if the to-be-truncated part is exactly half (that is, 5), it rounds toward the nearest even number
15:46 xinming 4.2 --(round-half-even)--> 5.0?
15:47 xinming oops
15:47 Juerd No, 0.2 is less than 0.5, so it's always rounded down.
15:47 Limbic_Region no xinming - did you read the explanation yet
15:47 Juerd 0.6 is more than 0.5, so it's always rounded up.
15:47 Juerd 0.5 is exactly 0.5, so it rounds to the nearest even.
15:47 xinming Limbic_Region: yes, but I don't understand as there isn't many example out there...
15:47 Limbic_Region basically it is a way to remove the bias from a system that always rounds .5 up
15:48 Limbic_Region imagine you have hundreds of floating point numbers that you wanted to do some statistics on
15:48 Limbic_Region first you decide to round the numbers to make things more digestible
15:48 Limbic_Region by rounding all the numbers at exactly .5 up - you could possibly bias the resulting statistics
15:49 Limbic_Region if instead - you rounded numbers that were exactly #.5 to the nearest even number
15:49 Limbic_Region you have a much better chance of averaging things out
15:49 Juerd perl -e'for ($_ = 0; $_ <= 10; $_ += 0.1) { printf "%.1f --> %.0f", $_, $_; print " <--" if $_ =~ /\.5$/; print "\n"; }'
15:50 Limbic_Region of course for datasets produced by a function that leads to more odd numbers than even - this is flawed thinking
15:50 Limbic_Region make more sense xinming
15:50 Juerd If it's at .5 without any <--, then see perlfaq for the explanation :)
15:50 xinming Juerd: perl-fect one-liner. :-P
15:50 PerlJam Limbic_Region: you should write that up in a little more expanded form and put it on perlmonks as a tutorial or something (Assuming it isn't already there somewhere)
15:51 Limbic_Region PerlJam - first I had encountered it.  I am adding it to my list of things to contemplate
15:51 xinming Round-half-up
15:51 xinming Juerd: from your example, it seems it is the same as round-half-up
15:52 sahadev joined perl6
15:52 Juerd xinming: No, look at 2.5, 4.5, 6.5
15:55 Limbic_Region that's actually a really good article
15:55 * Limbic_Region bookmarks
15:56 xinming `head TASKS` :-)
15:57 dakkar Juerd: what perl are you running? here it rounds up...
15:57 Juerd Oh, it rounds 2.5 up, 4.5 down, 6.5 down
15:58 Juerd Heh, add %.20f
15:58 Juerd And another , $_
15:58 Juerd Then you see why :)
15:59 dakkar I hate limited-precision math...
16:02 dakkar me ne vado a casa
16:03 dakkar (wrong window)
16:06 * Limbic_Region was going to ask dakkar what print 4 * atan2 1, 1;  should print on his limitless-precision math computer
16:24 hexmode joined perl6
16:28 obra any of the javascript gang around?
16:32 miyagawa audrey++ # http://pugs.blogs.com/audrey/2006/04/post.html
16:32 miyagawa otori-tan is very lovely
16:34 Daveman joined perl6
16:35 theorbtwo Is 'the Japanese romanization' really correct there?
16:35 Juerd rafl: I lost all the geektour photos. Sorry.
16:36 Juerd rafl: My backup is broken - the tar.bz2 is truncated at 4.0 GB :(
16:36 miyagawa theorbtwo: yeah, it's correct. To be more accurate, the only difference is T vs. D in the middle of o and ri, but other than that, it's very naturally same
16:37 frederico joined perl6
16:37 rafl Juerd: Ouch!
16:37 Juerd rafl: Yes.
16:37 Juerd I lost my music archive and photo archive.
16:37 rafl Juerd: Oh well.. I only took quite bad photos. They are at gallery.perldition.org.
16:38 rafl Juerd: *OUCH*~
16:38 Juerd So... people with good music, donate some tgz's please :)
16:38 * rafl only has CC-licensed music on his hard disk, currently.
16:39 rgs that "otori-tan" naming story is awesome
16:40 theorbtwo Oh!
16:41 theorbtwo You take "Audrey Tang", convert it into hirigana using the Chinese rules, then into Latin with the Japanese rules, and try to pronunce that.
16:41 xinming I worked with Larry to remove the concept of references from Perl 6, along with confusing concepts such as auto-enreferncing and auto-dereferencing. Now a Scalar holding an Array object is... well, just that.
16:41 nnunley_ is now known as nnunley
16:41 xinming hmm, what will the "reference" be called in the future? :-)
16:48 miyagawa Well, when we try to "parse" Audrey Tang as Japanese, it sounds like Audrey + Tan. And "-tan" means a postfix for lovely girls. Audrey can be kanjized using "otori" which magically is the same kanji with her Chinese name for Phoenix
16:50 Juerd Complex.
16:50 Juerd I'm glad my name is ASCII :)
16:53 * xinming is happy with several names. :-P
16:55 obra miyagawa: are your plane reservations set?
16:55 miyagawa obra: Not yet. Need to sort out my work schedule ...
16:56 miyagawa I'll fix it on Monday
16:57 obra ok
16:57 miyagawa worst case is I stay in .jp for this golden week
16:58 obra heh. *nod*
16:58 miyagawa but anyhow I'm going to US end of May, and I'll fly to East Coast during the stay until August
16:59 obra nice
17:08 pmurias Juerd: what do you call good music?
17:19 zgh joined perl6
17:21 Juerd pmurias: Almost anything that has a normal rhythm :)
17:21 Juerd And doesn't sound like people whining
17:22 Juerd I just discovered that I still have my Metallica, Weird Al, and SoaD
17:23 FurnaceBoy so, no Alanis?
17:24 pmurias we have a *lot* cds arranged mostly in piles in the house but it's mostly jazz,classical and King Crimson
17:25 Juerd Classical's great.
17:34 cognominal juerd : "I'm glad my name is ASCII :)" and you prononce it "weird"?
17:34 Juerd cognominal: ASCII is not my name, it's a property of it :)
17:35 Juerd And no, Juerd is not pronounced "weird"
17:38 kolibrie Juerd: is there a diphthong in Juerd?
17:39 Juerd kolibrie: If you want
17:40 Juerd ue can be either a diphthong or uë
17:40 Juerd In case of ue, it's pronounced as the dutch uu
17:40 Juerd In case of üe, as uu-e
17:40 Juerd eh
17:40 Juerd I meant uë
17:41 Juerd Though if you are/know German, feel free to imagine an umlaut on the u.
17:41 pmurias Juerd: i could post you a list of mp3 on my fathers hd
17:41 Juerd pmurias: And then? :)
17:41 kolibrie Juerd: I probably say it mostly like dutch uë
17:41 Juerd kolibrie: When have you mentioned my name irl then? :)
17:42 kolibrie Juerd: perhaps never
17:42 Juerd Hmm :)
17:42 Juerd Confusing
17:43 kolibrie Juerd: I just pronounce things in my mind while I read
17:43 * Limbic_Region pronounces Juerd as Gerard in his head for some reason
17:43 Juerd kolibrie: Hm, everything?
17:43 Juerd Limbic_Region: HUH?
17:43 pmurias Juerd: downloading via http would be ok, but i don't think you'll like any of that (unless you like Dylan (not the language))
17:44 ingy a really drunk guy at a bar asked me "Are you a rock star?"
17:44 Juerd pmurias: Doesn't ring any bell. I wasn't very serious, by the way, I don't think it's a good idea to ask other people to do illegal things for me :)
17:44 ingy I said, "Um, yes actually"
17:44 ingy "What's your band?"
17:44 Limbic_Region Juerd - gerard pronounced jer rod
17:44 Juerd ingy: Why else the ö
17:44 ingy "Perl"
17:45 ingy "What instrument do you play?"
17:45 FurnaceBoy "keyboard"
17:45 ingy "hmmm, um, keyboard"
17:45 ingy yeah
17:45 FurnaceBoy :)
17:45 miyagawa ingy++
17:45 * kolibrie is still puzzling over whether he pronounces everything in his mind while he reads
17:45 ingy then he said he was Butch Vig's cousin
17:45 Juerd kolibrie: ...
17:45 kolibrie Juerd: I give up
17:45 Juerd kolibrie: ...
17:45 Juerd (?)
17:47 jserv-- joined perl6
17:47 kolibrie Juerd: I think I can read faster than I speak, so I must not say everything in my mind, but when I slow down, I think I mentally pronounce what I'm reading
17:49 Juerd I have to copy things to force myself to slow down.
17:51 * kolibrie finds he does most things very slowly
18:12 frederico joined perl6
18:15 Quell joined perl6
18:31 dduncan joined perl6
18:34 KingDiamond joined perl6
18:52 xinming gaal: could you please tell me what do you use to make this slide? http://perlcabal.org/~gaal/peek/slide7a.html
18:57 obra that looks like spork
19:01 xinming obra: home page please... googled for it... but lost in so many entries
19:01 obra um. it's something of ingy's. try cpan
19:02 Juerd xinming: <meta name="generator" content="Spork v0.20" />
19:03 xinming :-) sorry, I missed that...
19:13 spinclad re round-half-even: for exact arithmetic choose an exact binary fraction: perl -e'for ($_ = 0; $_ <= 10; $_ += 0.125) { print $_; printf " --> %.0f", $_; print " <--" if $_ =~ /\.5$/; print "\n"; }'
19:19 rindolf joined perl6
19:20 rindolf left perl6
19:25 Juerd spinclad: Clever!
19:29 xinming1983 joined perl6
19:31 xinming joined perl6
19:38 ahdahm joined perl6
19:44 weinig|sleep is now known as weinig
19:47 avarab joined perl6
20:02 FurnaceBoy_ joined perl6
20:28 FurnaceBoy_ is now known as FurnaceBoy
20:34 gaal xinming: spork, yes, and a plugin for the syntax coloring
20:34 gaal Kwiki::VimMode
20:44 cognominal scrapbook++
20:44 cognominal firefox++
20:52 Juerd What's scrapbook?
20:52 svnbot6 r9938 | Darren_Duncan++ | added beginnings of ext/Relation/ - a logical Relation data type for Perl 6 (a superset of the Set data type)
20:55 cognominal oops, wrong window. Anyway that is http://amb.vis.ne.jp/mozilla/scrapbook/ a nice tool to archive pages
20:55 Juerd Thanks
20:55 cognominal recursive save is too agressive so.
20:55 Juerd Looks useful
20:56 cognominal you can save page weeded from a lot of junk
20:59 cognominal while we are at it, I recommand  http://aluminum.sourmilk.net/reveal/ too, it allow to search material in all the tabs of a firefox wiindow
21:00 Juerd Neat
21:01 Juerd I don't use a lot of extensions
21:02 Juerd noscript / adblock / adblock filterset.g updater / downthemall / web developer / fasterfox  is my standard set nowadays
21:02 Juerd I'll see if reveal and scrapbook will be added. Probably :)
21:03 cognominal I need an all encompassing extension for dealing with bookmarks, there are many incompatible half baked :(
21:04 Juerd Holy cow. reveal is like expose for the only thing on earth I've ever used expose for! :))
21:04 * Juerd hugs cognominal
21:04 Juerd You're my hero for today.
21:05 Juerd s/expose/exposé/  # I keep forgetting I have utf8 working now, and wanted to pretend I'm a unicode fanboy
21:05 cognominal I am using my kbd as qwerty so I am at a loss for diacritics outside emacs.
21:06 Juerd I use standard X11 Multi_key
21:06 Juerd Which lets me compose things.
21:06 cognominal downthemall sounds nice
21:07 Juerd for é I hit multi,',e
21:07 Juerd On this box, my right ctrl key is mapped to multi
21:07 Juerd Do you run X?
21:07 cognominal yes, I am on linux.
21:08 Juerd xmodmap -e 'keycode 117 = Mode_switch'
21:08 Juerd ehh
21:08 Juerd xmodmap -e 'keycode 117 = Multi_key'
21:08 cognominal I have been to lazy to search but because you are feeding me with a spoon...
21:08 Juerd That binds your windows menu key to multi
21:09 Juerd gnome and kde have ways of setting this up gui-ly - if you use anything else, just script it so that xmodmap is started at startup
21:09 cognominal I must say I sincerely hate X
21:09 Juerd Everyone does
21:09 Juerd But it's the best thing we have
21:10 cognominal long ago, I worked peripherally for NeWS. that was awesome but never done properly
21:10 cognominal conceptually X is crap compared to NeWS
21:15 gaal Otori-tan: ping
21:42 Kattana joined perl6
22:01 lichtkind joined perl6
22:04 lichtkind ?eval (2&8) == (2|3|5|7);
22:05 lichtkind ?eval 1;
22:06 lichtkind can someone please start evalbit?
22:06 lichtkind bot
22:06 Juerd lichtkind: Do you not have any pugs installation to test these things with?
22:07 Juerd lichtkind: Even if evalbot would be around, this stuff would not be the intended purpose.
22:07 Juerd lichtkind: evalbot is for showing people something, not for testing.
22:07 Juerd lichtkind: You can get access to feather if you don't have a machine that can compile pugs
22:07 Juerd (And even if you have such a machine, you can get access :))
22:12 lichtkind your right
22:12 lichtkind but im still writing this thing an wantet test only 2 3 cases
22:12 Juerd You can run pugs -e for that
22:13 Juerd pugs -e'say (2&8) == ...'
22:13 Juerd Just like perl -e
22:13 TimToady someone remind me why pugs always recompiles Syck?  it does it when you do a make install as root, which then breaks your build as non-root.
22:17 hlen_ joined perl6
22:18 TimToady audreyt: see above
22:19 hlen_ is now known as hlen
22:20 nnunley_ joined perl6
22:25 lichtkind * % / ** impose num context too?
22:27 xX[ReP]Xx left perl6
22:32 TimToady Let's say the standard definitions are biased towards num interpretation.  You could define any * % / ** MMD method you like and give it your own semantics, but stock Perl will treat Str as Num there.
22:32 TimToady whether that's by coercion or by just defining Str MMDs with num semantics, I don't know.l
22:33 TimToady coercion is just a way of autogenerating missing methods, is one way to look at it.
22:36 LeTo why coercion, when MMD exists?
22:37 dduncan TimToady, regarding that relation stuff, I will try to be brief and concise today ...
22:37 dduncan first of all, I draw a clear separation between the data type I propose for perl 6 and anything to do with databases
22:38 dduncan what I propose for perl 6 is just a set-like class, which is mutable like a set or array or hash data type
22:38 dduncan and a few operators for it
22:38 dduncan that's all
22:38 lichtkind Thanks Tim (still enjoying your last talk)
22:38 dduncan so TTM et al can basically be ignored
22:39 dduncan I have also started to put an implementation in ext/Relation/ today
22:39 * Juerd thinks it's funny that lichtkind calls TimToady Tim.
22:39 svnbot6 r9939 | lwall++ | Added * to %ENV and @ARGS that seem to be missing it (and aren't historical).
22:39 svnbot6 r9939 | lwall++ | Also added tests for importation of %ENV from GLOBAL.
22:39 dduncan which should be done over the next few days
22:40 Juerd LeTo: Because otherwise you have to define a method for each existing type?
22:40 dduncan emphasizing that clear separation, I see that this Relation proposal is completely separate from my Rosetta project, so none of the Rosetta/TTM stuff needs to be read into it
22:40 Juerd Nevermind. There is of course a single catchall type.
22:40 LeTo MMD on 'Any' can still DTRT
22:40 dduncan just instead think of Relation as ext/Set plus more, or something
22:49 larsen joined perl6
22:53 dduncan question ... is anyone else finding that the make-test for Pugs modules is reaaaaalllllllyyyyyy sllllooooowwww?
22:53 dduncan eg, running 'make test' for just ext/Test/ ...
22:53 dduncan takes several minutes to run
22:53 dduncan can this be affected by heap size?
22:54 dduncan or does a larger heap just prevent crashing?
22:54 dduncan the figures I see today specifically are: Files=3, Tests=83, 219 wallclock secs (210.59 cusr +  4.88 csys = 215.47 CPU)
22:55 dduncan whareas, back around when 6.2.11 was new, that completed in just a few seconds
22:56 dduncan (you can test individual modules after 'make' completes on the main pugs by first cd-ing to the ext module dir, like into ext/Test/ and running 'make test')
22:57 dduncan note that launching Pugs directly only takes about 3 seconds to load the prelude, and normal statements seem to run right away
22:57 dduncan so the prelude is pre-compiled
22:59 dduncan this is all standard Haskell runcore, what is used by default
23:02 fglock joined perl6
23:02 dduncan note that the speed problem here has been occurring for weeks, and I suspect it isn't happening to others as then it would have been fixed
23:02 dduncan will try another clean build ...
23:05 Limbic_Region joined perl6
23:08 dduncan maybe explicitly specify a larger heap too ...
23:12 svnbot6 r9940 | fglock++ | PCR - small fixes
23:12 svnbot6 r9941 | fglock++ | PG-P6 - 03-statement-control.t passes all tests
23:14 nothingmuch joined perl6
23:16 stclare joined perl6
23:33 svnbot6 r9945 | fglock++ | PG-P6 - removed List.pm
23:36 kolibrie joined perl6
23:39 fglock pmurias++ - emitter for Pugs-Grammar
23:41 fglock audreyt: Pugs::Grammar main engine looks ready - I'll start adding stuff to try to parse Pugs tests
23:42 fglock later &
23:42 fglock left perl6

| Channels | #perl6 index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo