Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-04-20

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:07 buu go go +R powers!
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02:32 aufrank hello.\(room.all)
02:34 audreyt yo
02:35 * aufrank has been reading the logs audreyt linked to in her last journal
02:35 aufrank neat stuff goes on when I'm not here!
02:35 aufrank I should be here more often
02:35 aufrank maybe I'll catch it ;)
02:36 aufrank audreyt: have you checked in anything on your way to doing opp all with rules?
02:36 audreyt aufrank: src/Pugs/Rule/Expr.hs? ;)
02:37 audreyt no, there is no code yet.
02:40 aufrank so, my first post ever to p6l didn't actually get there because I posted using the google groups interface
02:40 aufrank this was probably a year ago
02:40 aufrank but I was thinking about the question again the other day
02:41 aufrank does anyone have any ideas about how to use p6 rules to generate patterns rather than parse them?
02:42 aufrank I'd like to be able to generate samples from a grammar
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02:46 aufrank something like $rule = { (g|b)[1] (a|i)[1] (p|d)[1] (o|u)[1] }
02:47 aufrank $rule.pick # gapo or gido or badu or ...
02:57 audreyt why, yes
02:57 audreyt also see misc/pX/audreyt/rules-are-templates
02:57 audreyt related but not the same idea
02:58 audreyt (where (g|b) becomes validators instead of generators)
03:01 * aufrank goes to look
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03:06 aufrank [% GET foo %]     <=$foo>
03:07 aufrank you think the TT2 GET returns an iterator in p6 world?
03:07 audreyt this is rules
03:07 audreyt not expr
03:07 audreyt so <=$foo> is just... imaginative syntax
03:07 audreyt for
03:07 audreyt $foo := .*?
03:07 audreyt probably
03:07 aufrank oh oh
03:07 aufrank I see
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05:56 GeJ good localtime moosefolks
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06:26 lypie morning *
06:29 arcady evening
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10:11 xinming http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v715/rayskwire/Random/Too_Much_Computer.gif   :-)
11:01 * dakkar is away: pranzo
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11:06 xinming Larry landed.... :-)
11:07 xinming TimToady: hmm, what is the role of control statements? objects? or it built-in...
11:07 * xinming is thinking.... if the control statements can be object... as &?ROUTINE
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12:15 ruz eval? sub foo($arg!){say $arg}; sub bar(*@rest){say @rest;foo(*@rest)}; foo arg=>2; bar arg=>3; foo()
12:17 lichtkind ?eval sub foo($arg!){say $arg}; sub bar(*@rest){say @rest;foo(*@rest)}; foo arg=>2; bar arg=>3; foo()
12:17 evalbot_10038 is now known as evalbot_10042
12:17 evalbot_10042 OUTPUT[arg2   ] Error: No such sub: "&foo"
12:18 ruz oh :) I have to recompile
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12:18 lichtkind :)
12:18 ruz ?eval sub foo($arg!){say $arg}; sub bar(*%rest){say %rest;foo(*%rest)}; foo arg=>2; bar arg=>3; foo()
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12:18 evalbot_10042 OUTPUT[arg2 arg3 arg3 ] Error: No such sub: "&foo"
12:19 ruz the first thing is wrong too
12:20 ruz ?eval sub foo($arg!){say $arg}; sub bar(*@rest){foo(*@rest)}; bar arg=>3; # should fail or output something sane
12:20 evalbot_10042 OUTPUT[ ] bool::true
12:21 ruz is it correct syntax?
12:23 fglock putter: a p5 implementation of PGE would be very useful - re: http://colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6?date=2006-04-19,Wed&amp;sel=670#l1116
12:23 fglock but an Inline::C version would be even better :)
12:25 fglock I'm on YAPC::Brasil - the hosting conference is 5200 people and still counting!
12:27 fglock audreyt, TimToady - if you'd likely come to YAPC::SA in november please let me know
12:27 fglock everyone else too :)
12:31 kolibrie fglock: did you see the p6grammar to PCR module compiler I wrote yesterday?
12:36 kolibrie http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/misc/pX/Common/Pugs-Compiler-Rule/compile_p6grammar.pl
12:36 * dakkar is back (gone 01:35:19)
12:39 fglock kolibrie: looking
12:42 fglock wow - very short :)
12:42 kolibrie fglock: thanks to PCR and 'return' in rules
12:44 fglock cool. A possible usage is also "... > Perl6GrammarFile.pmc"
12:44 kolibrie yes
12:45 kolibrie or I was wondering if the pmc should be even further compiled Perl 5 code
12:46 fglock yes - but then you have to recompile when you upgrade PCR
12:46 kolibrie ahh
12:47 kolibrie does PCR depend on pugs?  I'd like to be able to use grammars on systems without pugs
12:47 fglock recompiling the PCR internal mini-language is fast, and it only happens at load time
12:47 fglock no it doesn't
12:48 kolibrie okay, cool
12:48 fglock it only depends on PadWalker, for looking up lexical variables
12:49 kolibrie I thought it depends on v6.pm and Inline, too
12:53 fglock v6.pm doesn't exist physically - it is there just for dieing in case you try to execute the p6 module with p5 directly - Inline is not used either
12:54 kolibrie ok
12:54 * kolibrie is very excited to start using grammars in production
12:56 kolibrie fglock: is there a way to specify modifiers with PCR? :perl5 :i and such
13:01 fglock you can add { p => 1 } at compile time, for matching at position 0 - but this is not in CPAN yet
13:02 fglock :perl5 will be { perl5 => 1 } - but this is not implemented yet
13:03 fglock going to merlyn's talk - dunno if there is wifi there... &
13:03 kolibrie so those go in Pugs::Compiler::Rule->compile(q( { perl5 => 1 } <rule_stuff> { return ... } ))
13:05 fglock ...->compile( $rule, %opts )
13:06 kolibrie ok
13:07 fglock wifi is ok - still here :)
13:07 kolibrie (wifi)++
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13:54 audreyt TimToady: how does /x++/ differ from /x+/?
13:54 audreyt also, "parse" is a rather common prefix sub name
13:55 audreyt and not a noun
13:55 audreyt using it as a declarator is very, very weird.
13:55 * Juerd has plenty parse_foo's
13:56 audreyt I mean, that will deny people of saying: sub parse { ... } ; parse foo();
13:56 audreyt which is rather strange
13:57 Juerd It's the same with log.
13:57 Juerd People get used to having to choose alternatives.
13:57 audreyt Juerd: log is not a declarator.
13:57 Juerd Though I'd prefer to be able to use log myself, and yea, parse too.
13:57 audreyt TimToady's last S05 change put "parse" in same category as
13:57 audreyt "sub" and "method".
13:58 audreyt and "rule".
13:58 audreyt my $x = parse { ... };
13:58 audreyt grammar Foo{ parse moose { ... }; }
13:58 audreyt I'm very uncomfortable with a verb at that position.
13:59 Juerd Your discomfort appears sane.
13:59 pmichaud audreyt: I agree "parse" is not so good; what's a good alternative?
13:59 audreyt if people can't use token:w{...}
14:00 audreyt then "term" is second best I suppose.
14:00 pmichaud oh, I think token:w is probably perfect
14:00 audreyt but I think token:w{...} is very nice already
14:00 pmichaud yes, I agree
14:00 audreyt it feels like overhuffmanizing.
14:00 pmichaud <audreyt> TimToady: how does /x++/ differ from /x+/?
14:01 pmichaud token { /x+/ } and   rule { /x+/ }    are different
14:01 pmichaud token { /x++/ }  and rule { /x++/ }  are the same
14:01 pmichaud (i.e., it forces backtracking)
14:01 audreyt gotcha.
14:02 * pmichaud is composing a reply to S05 now
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14:04 audreyt oh
14:05 audreyt should I abort my edit? :)
14:05 pmichaud no, we can both reply, I think :)
14:05 audreyt k :)
14:05 pmichaud depends on what you're replying to
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14:06 theorbtwo Forces backtrackability, surely.
14:06 audreyt just the "parse".
14:06 pmichaud okay, I'll just put a "me too" in mind about the parse
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14:09 audreyt actually, I listed you in the mail :)
14:09 audreyt sent
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14:26 bsb hello from hong kong
14:28 gugod hello bsb
14:30 bsb hi gugod
14:31 gugod :)
14:33 PolettiX joined perl6
14:33 bsb gugod, you're a .tw hacker right?  I'm there tomorrow for a few days
14:33 gugod bsb: heh, really ?
14:33 gugod bsb: yes I'm from .tw
14:34 PolettiX is now known as froh-doh
14:34 bsb I'm taking the long way home
14:34 gugod bsb: where will you be ? taipei ?
14:34 bsb I fly to taipei
14:34 clkao bsb: you should call for an emergency socail meet for taipei.pm
14:34 gugod exactly
14:35 gugod and poke hcchien
14:35 bsb put up the camel spotlight in the sky...
14:35 bsb that'd be great
14:37 gugod are you staying maybe to the end of April ? you can probably meet ingy and miyagaywa ;)
14:37 bsb only until the 26th, I offered ingy beer|coffee to coax him out
14:38 gugod ha
14:38 bsb I miss miyagawa by a day I think :(
14:39 gugod bsb: right... well it's still cool, so will you be staying in taipei for the most of time ?
14:39 bsb I don't know, I have no sense of Taiwan's scale
14:40 bsb I just bought a 2nd hand travel guide
14:40 gugod bsb: ingy and I are living in hsinchu city, which is 1 hour driving from taipei
14:40 gugod bsb: oh so you are still planning ?
14:41 bsb "still" would suggest that I'd started...
14:41 gugod alright, I get it
14:42 bsb if there's public transport, I'd make a trip out some time
14:44 gugod public transport in Taipei city is good enough, and bad enough for mostly all other cities
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14:45 ingy hola
14:45 ingy gugod!
14:45 gugod I can almost hear you typing that excalmation mark, ingy
14:46 ingy :)
14:47 bsb "Hsinchu is a medium sized city that is famous in Taiwan for it windy winter weather..."
14:47 * ingy soothes himself with an excalmation mark
14:48 ingy bsb: how many days are you here?
14:48 bsb "...if Hsinchu has anything (besides computers) that would appeal to foreigners, it's the nightlife"
14:48 bsb 5 days
14:49 ingy where are you staying?
14:49 bsb not booked yet, taipei somewhere I guess
14:50 ingy cool, maybe I'll come to taipei on Monday
14:50 audreyt ooh
14:50 * audreyt tries to reschedule $job away
14:50 azuroth yo, I'm really cool
14:50 ingy :)
14:51 gugod we could meet on monday, I will be in taipei on monay
14:51 * ingy pets azuroth
14:51 * bsb took a while to work out what day it is (jetlag)
14:51 gugod monday
14:51 azuroth I'm really, really supercool. :-)
14:51 ingy azuroth: yes, we know
14:52 audreyt azuroth: so cool you triggered fusion?
14:52 bsb so how do we meet up?
14:53 azuroth no, but I can try
15:04 bsb gugod, ingy: email me any plans or tips at  bereft döt net
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15:23 Yumma http://bigtitsroundasses.bangbros1.com/gal/298/p/bavideopost/  http://www.sog10.com/gallery01/c2100k/index.html
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15:56 bsb good night all
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16:39 audreyt by request of #parrot folks - currently in #perl6 emulation mode there -
16:39 audreyt I did a sketch port of
16:39 audreyt http://perlcabal.org/~autrijus/tmp/tg.html
16:39 audreyt from TGE syntax
16:39 audreyt to
16:40 audreyt http://perlcabal.org/~autrijus/tmp/p6.html
16:40 audreyt in Perl6 syntax.
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16:40 ingy hi audreyt
16:41 audreyt hi
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16:44 xinming1983 audreyt: hmm, I wonder, what the roles are control statements in perl 6. is it built in, or an object...
16:45 audreyt xinming1983: they are functions
16:45 xinming1983 is now known as xinming
16:45 xinming sorry, bbl
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16:46 xinming hmm, what's the proto of them? I mean, if they are functions, how to "implement" if... :-)
16:47 xinming I know loop statements can be implemented using goto... How about if... :-/
16:51 theorbtwo xinming: Can be emulated with a form of if that only does if (boolean) {goto foo}.
16:53 xinming theorbtwo: but the problem is... does the if call itself recursively?
16:54 Limbic_Region xinming - sure (I think)
16:55 Limbic_Region as long as the condition can be translated to a bunch of booleans
16:55 Limbic_Region if ($foo eq 'bar' && $blah == 1) { ... } = $foo eq 'bar' && $blah == 1 && goto somewhere
16:56 * xinming kisses Limbic_Region  :-)
16:56 xinming right... I know now...
16:56 Limbic_Region but that is only if - not if/else or if/elsif/etc
16:57 Limbic_Region as theorbtwo was saying above
16:57 xinming given when can be emulated with match pattern... So It's not a problem...
16:57 Limbic_Region although - I think they fall out quite easily
16:57 Limbic_Region if/else is a no brainer because
16:58 Limbic_Region $cond1 && $cond2 && goto somewhere
16:58 Limbic_Region can unconditionally be followed by
16:58 Limbic_Region goto alternative
16:58 xinming hmm, Maybe I still ask about how to implement the infix && ?
16:58 xinming :-)
16:58 PerlJam Limbic_Region: did you happen to read Allison's use.perl journal on implementing if/elsif/else for punie?
16:58 xinming It's really made me insane... as I don't understand how can these be implemented...
16:58 xinming PerlJam: url please... :-)
16:58 Limbic_Region and if/elsif/else is easy too because they are just a series of ifs with an unconditional goto at the end
16:58 Limbic_Region PerlJam - yes
16:59 PerlJam xinming: um  ... http://use.perl.org/~allison/journal should get you close enough
16:59 theorbtwo Limbic: Don't goto for the else clause, just follow it.
16:59 Limbic_Region http://use.perl.org/~Allison/journal/29358
16:59 xinming how about infix && ?
16:59 PerlJam What L~R said
16:59 Limbic_Region theorbtwo - I thought the game was to implement as much as possible with gotos :-)
17:00 theorbtwo Ah.
17:00 Limbic_Region PerlJam - I am not sure I agree with Allison's conclusions though
17:00 theorbtwo BTW, the infocom compiler uses the idiom that Allison liked.
17:00 xinming hmm, infix && is handcoded into parrot assembler, right?
17:01 * Limbic_Region wanders off for a meeting
17:01 pmichaud the perl6.pbc compiler handles if/elsif/else
17:01 pmichaud and infix:&&
17:01 pmichaud (infix:&& is a special form of if/elsif/else)
17:08 PerlJam pm: But it doesn't do variables :(
17:08 pmichaud pj: it doesn't?
17:08 PerlJam well, it didn't the last time I looked :)
17:08 * xinming wonders if we can make these control statements objects, so that we can access the target address in VM. and backtrack the address where it starts... :-P
17:08 xinming a crazy idea though...
17:09 pmichaud (it doesn't understand real lexicals yet, but it does do variables)
17:09 pmichaud scalars, at least
17:09 PerlJam pmichaud: what about looping contstructs?
17:09 pmichaud those are coming soon -- I may unify those with the conditionals
17:10 PerlJam if it groks goto, then I could already write BASIC-like programs  :)
17:10 xinming do you mean, every thing in perl 6 can be objects?
17:10 xinming even include the control statements?
17:10 pmichaud control statements are exceptions :-)
17:10 pmichaud depending on the statement
17:11 PerlJam xinming: everything in perl 6 can be thought of as an "object"  :)
17:11 PerlJam Whether you'd want to do that or not is another matter however
17:11 xinming PerlJam: yes, as audreyt ever said that control statements are functions... So, If they are functions, can we make it real object... :-P
17:12 xinming hmm, I mean, it is specified....
17:14 xinming which means, we can ask the current "if" object something interesting, eg: test statements, and where the target in source will it go, and where the target after it compiled into parrot assembly...
17:14 xinming and even where it belongs to...
17:14 xinming etc etc...
17:15 xinming is it crazy or it is insane? :-)
17:15 PerlJam xinming: well ... I don't know that we'll be able  to ask "if objects" much about how they're compiled, but all of that other stuff sounds reasonable.
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18:28 svnbot6 r10043 | audreyt++ | * Upgrade Artistic license to the latest revision (2.0beta14),
18:28 svnbot6 r10043 | audreyt++ |   made availble yesterday, under:
18:28 svnbot6 r10043 | audreyt++ |     http://www.perlfoundation.org/legal/licenses/artistic-2_0.html
18:29 TimToady pmichaud: ping
18:31 pmichaud TimToady: pong
18:31 TimToady I was just wondering offhand if <$foo> captures by default in PGE, and whether the default should be to capture to $<foo>, and suppress with <?$foo>, or default to not capture, and force capture with <:$foo>.
18:31 TimToady likewise for <@foo> and <%foo>
18:31 pmichaud I had been thinking that <$foo> would capture by default
18:32 pmichaud it seems the most natural
18:32 pmichaud we can also let it be non-capturing by default, and then use aliases
18:32 pmichaud $<foo>:=<$foo>
18:32 TimToady <:$foo> would be shorthand for that
18:32 TimToady as in sigs
18:32 pmichaud at some point I feel like ETOOMANYSHORTHANDS  :-)
18:33 TimToady we already have that shorthand.
18:33 pmichaud at one point we had also discussed using the leading : for intra-rule modifiers
18:33 pmichaud i.e.,   <:words(0)>
18:33 fglock joined perl6
18:34 pmichaud (to answer your original question -- at the moment PGE doesn't handle lexical variables other than the ones in the rule itself, such as backreferences)
18:34 aufrank joined perl6
18:34 TimToady it would only work on :<sigil> presumably, but I think I like capture by default anyway.
18:34 pmichaud (being that lexicals in Parrot weren't completely spec'd)
18:35 audreyt oh?
18:35 pmichaud capture by default "feels" right to me
18:35 svnbot6 r10044 | audreyt++ | * Back out the previous revision, restore Artistic 2 to 2.0b5,
18:35 svnbot6 r10044 | audreyt++ |   as the new b14 asserts itself to derivatives to each files under
18:35 svnbot6 r10044 | audreyt++ |   the collection, not only the collection as a whole -- the meaning of
18:35 TimToady phone
18:35 svnbot6 r10044 | audreyt++ |   "Package" is changed from the one used Artistic1/2.0b5.
18:35 svnbot6 r10044 | audreyt++ |   (as such, I can't upgrade the license as we have parts under the
18:35 svnbot6 r10044 | audreyt++ |   BSD/GHC license.)
18:35 audreyt (what part of pdd20 is missing?)
18:35 pmichaud audreyt: sorry, I mis-stated.  At the time I wrote that portion of PGE, lexicals weren't completely implemented
18:35 audreyt ah. ok :)
18:36 pmichaud even then, it requires a bit more scaffolding in place to implement, since we have to know the lexical environment at the time the rule is compiled
18:36 xinming TimToady: is it possible make control statements objects? as I asked an hour ago. :-P
18:36 * fglock wonders if he will ever catch up after the YAPC
18:36 pmichaud audreyt: I'm one of those who doesn't believe in a specification  until there's an implementation for it :-)
18:37 audreyt pmichaud: tis also me :)
18:37 TimToady unphone
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18:38 TimToady "everything is an object", but some things are things...
18:38 TimToady and some things aren't things...
18:38 xinming .doit .()   # okay, no arguments, same as .doit()   <--- doesn't  this follow the "long dot" rule?  I mean, .doit.   .()
18:39 TimToady certainly some control structures are just subs.
18:39 pmichaud ISTR that we had said in an earlier spec (perhaps one of the drafts of S05) that <$foo> would capture to $<$foo>
18:39 TimToady where?
18:39 xinming in S12
18:39 TimToady will fix.
18:39 xinming Parentheses (or a colon) are required on the dot notation if there are any arguments (not counting adverbial arguments). There may be no space between the method name and the left parenthesis unless you use the dot form of parentheses:
18:40 TimToady or you can fix
18:41 TimToady I'm thinking maybe we want it to capture to $<foo> instead, to be more like named params.
18:41 pmichaud so,  <$foo> and <@foo> both capture $<foo>?
18:41 xinming TimToady: I don't have commit bit. >_<
18:41 pmichaud er, to $<foo>
18:41 pmichaud xinming -- I'll fix
18:42 TimToady Seems unlikely that you'd want <$foo> and <@foo> in the same scope.
18:42 pmichaud agreed
18:42 TimToady and you can always $<$foo>:= if you like.
18:43 pmichaud We already capture <OtherGrammar::rule> to $<OtherGrammar::rule>, so it might be nice to be consistent
18:43 * avar uses $foo and @foo in the same scope in p5
18:43 pmichaud looking at it the other way, one can always $<foo>:=<$foo>  :-)
18:44 pmichaud Is this still true...?  >>       .doit.  .(1,2): 3   # okay, same as .doit(1,2,3)
18:44 pmichaud (just verifying)
18:45 pmichaud btw, audreyt, I like 'lexeme'
18:46 * aufrank does research on lexemes and lemmas
18:46 xinming I agree, that something are things, but if we make if objects, maybe we can access the control statement object inside the code...  hmm, eg: get the test_statements, and modify it(in loop), since &?BLOCK can become object, why can't the control statements?
18:47 TimToady avar: I meant the same rule scope.  Don't care if the surrounding scope has both variables
18:47 aufrank lexeme means "form-based representation of a word in the mental lexicon" to me
18:47 TimToady pmichaud: yes, that's still correct
18:47 pmichaud committing
18:47 aufrank but I recognize that I'm in the minority there
18:48 PerlJam greetings programs.
18:48 * pmichaud watched Tron a few nights ago also :-)
18:48 theorbtwo ?eval "Hello, PerlJam"
18:48 TimToady xinming: if the compiler can detect the desire to objectify "if" and pessimize, it's okay.
18:48 PerlJam aufrank: lexeme doesn't work for me either btw :-)
18:48 evalbot_10042 is now known as evalbot_10044
18:48 evalbot_10044 "Hello, PerlJam"
18:48 FurnaceBoy_ hehe@PerlJam
18:48 TimToady But we have to give the optimizer room to work by default.
18:49 FurnaceBoy_ end of line.
18:49 TimToady to me lexeme is synonymous with token.
18:49 * PerlJam mistakes FurnaceBoy_ for the MCP and starts blasting
18:49 PerlJam TimToady: me too.
18:49 TimToady END OF LINE!!!
18:50 TimToady lemma is one I hadn't heard.
18:50 aufrank 's fine by me.  I'm used to typing it anyway ;)
18:50 PerlJam phrase seems to work best as the intent of "parse"
18:50 PerlJam or how about "idiom"  :)
18:50 FurnaceBoy_ "who is your user, program?!"
18:50 PerlJam or even "words" (a little vague probably)
18:51 pmichaud I came across "phrase" while thinking of "sequence of words", since it's essentially "rule :ratchet :words"
18:51 aufrank fragment is possible, as well
18:51 pmichaud shorten it to "frag", and we'll be playing FPS games :-)
18:51 xinming TimToady: Ok, I know that we can objectify control statements. then perl 6 can be as dynamic as possible. :-P
18:52 lichtkind labels are still made: "label:" ?
18:53 TimToady lichtkind: yes
18:53 TimToady must be at statement boundary though.
18:53 TimToady (including after do)
18:54 TimToady I rather like "phrase" myself, though that kind of drives s/token/word/
18:54 pmichaud I was also trying to think of what word would work well in the grammar spec instead of "rule"  (and "parse" doesn't work)
18:54 lichtkind on left boundary?
18:54 aufrank re: lemma http://www.smithsrisca.demon.co.uk/psycholinguistics-glossary.html
18:54 TimToady where parser is expecting a statement.
18:54 TimToady doesn't have to be leftmost
18:55 pmichaud I think I still prefer "token" over word
18:55 pmichaud since rules (that aren't phrases) will use tokens
18:55 pmichaud although "atom" comes to mind
18:55 TimToady It's not badly overloaded, true.
18:55 TimToady atom tends to be badly overloaded.
18:55 pmichaud yup
18:56 TimToady and our tokens tend to be more like molecules anyway.
18:56 pmichaud well, I vote for phrase (for whatever my vote counts)
18:57 TimToady I kind of like that the fancier things get longer: rule/token/phrase
18:57 TimToady but not too much longer.
18:57 TimToady the intent of phrase as a keyword is not really huffmanization of typing, but huffmanization of thinking,
18:58 TimToady because I want something that maps almost exactly to the concept of a BNF production, if not exactly the syntax
18:58 aufrank in probabilistic context free grammars we talk about conditioning on the head of a rule
18:58 lichtkind thanks TimToady maybe for your amusement the perl6tut im writing on opens with an quate of paul graham "There are some stunningly novel ideas in Perl, for example. Many are stunningly bad, but that's always true of ambitious efforts. At its current rate of mutation, God knows what Perl might evolve into in a hundred years.", but chapter 2 and 4 are yours :)
18:59 aufrank TimToady: me too
18:59 lichtkind qoute
18:59 TimToady also, having a declarator naturally give a hook for pragmas
18:59 TimToady use phrase :myopt;
19:00 aufrank nice
19:00 TimToady use token :foo;
19:00 TimToady use rule :exhaustive;  # :-/
19:01 TimToady of course, if we define one in terms of the other, the question arises whether a pragma on rule also applies to the others...
19:01 TimToady sort of the "is deep" thing.
19:02 pmichaud I could see it going either way
19:02 TimToady If we follow "is deep", then default is syntactic, and you use :deep or some such for semantic mods.
19:03 TimToady optimized that way obviously because :deep is shorter than :shallow  :)
19:04 TimToady but also because part of the reason for "parse" in the first place is so that you can think of it as its own thing.
19:04 * PerlJam hands the parse to TimToady
19:04 TimToady *phrase
19:05 pmichaud I think I need to disappear from IRC for a while to get some actual coding done -- anything else for me before I /away?
19:05 PerlJam token/phrase doesn't quite mesh for me. Those two words live in different mental buckets.
19:05 aufrank one nice thing about phrase is that it corresponds to tree or subtree in syntax
19:06 FurnaceBoy_ true
19:06 aufrank (in that case I would think of tokens as either words or terminals or nodes)
19:08 PerlJam I know, let's go with word/stanza/poem  instead of token/phrase/grammar  ;-)
19:08 audreyt phrase sounds good.
19:08 aufrank PerlJam: then we get sub-word distinctions as well (foot, iamb, spondee)...
19:09 xinming role A does A { }; class B does A; B.new
19:09 xinming what's the result ? :-)
19:10 PerlJam xinming: an error because "role A does A" doesn't make much sense.
19:10 PerlJam or perhaps a warning and it works anyway depending on your level of stricture.
19:10 * xinming shakes hands with PerlJam
19:10 TimToady token/syntax maybe...
19:10 xinming PerlJam: It should be an error... or compiler automatically ignore this.
19:10 audreyt syntax error { ... }
19:10 xinming hmm, I don't know though...
19:11 audreyt "syntax" means "phrase structure", right?
19:11 audreyt (in natural, instead of computer, languages)
19:11 PerlJam audreyt: right.
19:11 TimToady It means "BNF production" in computerese
19:12 TimToady but yes, syntax can mean a set of stuctures, not just one
19:12 audreyt but we have alternation etc
19:12 xinming audreyt: which part should I write test? I mean, test `role A does A;` part, or B.new part?
19:12 audreyt so we can say it already is representing syntax
19:12 TimToady maybe we live with token/phrase, but they're in different mental buckets for me too.
19:12 audreyt instead of just one possible phrase arragement
19:13 audreyt I think "syntax" reads better
19:13 audreyt as a plus, it has no verb form.
19:13 pmichaud syntax if_statement { if <expression> <block> }
19:13 audreyt while "phrase" is both vt and vi
19:13 audreyt and suffers from the same problem as "parse"
19:13 TimToady and the multilevelness of it doesn't really bother me, since
19:13 PerlJam audreyt: you know us computer geeks though, we can verb anything  ;)
19:13 TimToady the top refers to the bits of it anyway.
19:13 TimToady syntax top {...}
19:14 audreyt 21:13 < audreyt> but we have alternation etc
19:14 TimToady alternation doesn't backtrack either
19:14 audreyt and subrules kinda means named explicit structure
19:14 TimToady in syntax
19:14 audreyt I was agreeing with you :)
19:14 audreyt (in saying that the syntax refers to the structure not just one phrase)
19:14 pmichaud syntax would work for me
19:14 TimToady that's what you get for typing in the wee hours of the morning.
19:14 audreyt indeed
19:15 audreyt I should sleep :)
19:15 TimToady going, going, gone...SOLD!
19:15 * audreyt spent the whole night parsing Artistic 2.0b14.
19:15 Arathorn is now known as Aragone
19:15 audreyt it... reminds me of Perl 6 in many ways, compared to Artistic1.
19:15 pmichaud could we have :syntax instead of :ratchet, then?  Or is that too much aliasing?
19:16 * PerlJam would like :syntax over :ratchet  
19:16 particle_ yes, nurse ratchet.
19:16 asdddd joined perl6
19:16 audreyt I have no idea what ratchet means.
19:16 asdddd left perl6
19:16 PerlJam (in fact, anything would work better than ratchet I t hink)
19:16 pmichaud "ratchet" in general means that once you take a step, there's no going back
19:17 audreyt pmichaud: webster doesn't list that...
19:17 audreyt wordnet lists that meaning, under the verb slot
19:17 audreyt which is even more confusing.
19:17 aufrank wordnet++
19:17 particle_ :oneway
19:17 audreyt oh, as "rachet up" compound.
19:17 TimToady :syntax doesn't work for that, since token also ratchets.
19:17 pmichaud google "define:ratchet"
19:17 PerlJam aufrank: have you ever seen the innards of an old-fashioned clock?
19:17 TimToady and I wanted something very attention getting.
19:17 PerlJam er, audreyt
19:18 audreyt PerlJam: yeah. but I lack the English vocab :)
19:18 audreyt (or rather, the cultural metaphoric context)
19:18 TimToady likewise for :panic instead of "try"
19:18 pmichaud okay, I'm not strongly opposed to :ratchet -- just wanted to (briefly) explore the possibility
19:18 pmichaud I think :panic is appropriate :-)
19:18 audreyt TimToady: so maybe :Legacy instead of :Perl5 ;)
19:18 TimToady it seems like a lively metaphor.
19:19 pmichaud audreyt observed on #parrot that ":panic" is likely to be the $& of Perl 6 :-)
19:19 TimToady Thats falling into Pythons .repr trap.
19:19 TimToady *which* legacy?
19:19 svnbot6 r10045 | yiyihu++ | role A does A { }; class B does A; B.new;
19:19 svnbot6 r10045 | yiyihu++ | This will cause infinite loop in pugs, a partial test...
19:19 audreyt true
19:19 aufrank the contextually relevant one, of course
19:19 * pmichaud away again
19:19 TimToady all the more reason to make :panic something with strikingly negative connotations.
19:20 pmichaud yes, that's why I think it's appropriate :-)
19:20 TreyHarris TimToady: I'm confused about "rule ident { [ <alpha>: | _ ]: \w+: }".  Why is there a colon after <alpha>, but not after _?
19:20 pmichaud TreyHarris: the colon prevents backtracking into the <alpha> subrule
19:20 TimToady cause you can't backtrack a literal anyway.
19:21 TreyHarris yes, but wouldn't token do the equivalent of putting a colon there, even though it's useless?
19:21 TimToady and if you pass the literal, the []: prevents backtrack to _.
19:21 pmichaud TreyHarris: we don't know that it's useless :-)
19:22 audreyt I think the jargon is :predictive.
19:22 TimToady but yes, following the ":"-anything-that-progresses rule might be clearer.
19:22 audreyt (as the antonym to "backtracking")
19:22 pmichaud I was thinking "committed"
19:22 PerlJam audreyt: It would almost work as  :backtrack(0) and :backtrack  except that usually you want the opposite sense.
19:23 TreyHarris apologies if i'm being pedantic, but I was comparing the "token ident" line and the "rule ident" line looking for the mechanistic behavior of "token", not the semantic result
19:23 TimToady that's why I said it might be clearer.
19:23 pmichaud TreyHarris: np -- I understand your question better now
19:23 pmichaud yes, it probably would make more sense w/a :
19:23 TimToady it's the "is deep" thang again...
19:24 audreyt :predictive and :committed both sound like computerese :)
19:24 audreyt just like "syntax"
19:24 audreyt but unlike "parse", "phrase", or ":ratchet"
19:25 TreyHarris audreyt: lots of "syntax" in the non-computer world.  there's a syntax on liquor, syntax or tobacco.... :-)
19:25 particle_ :committed and :panic have other meanings, to asylum-seekers
19:25 pmichaud perhaps just :commit and :panic
19:25 PerlJam :commit plays well with <commit> :)
19:25 svnbot6 r10046 | yiyihu++ | Rename role_does_itself.t to self_inheritance.t, as I forgot the
19:25 svnbot6 r10046 | yiyihu++ | class A is A { }; A.new; test++
19:27 PerlJam though if we do too much of that people will derive a general rule that just isn't true.
19:27 audreyt . o O ( :chill and :panic )
19:27 PerlJam heh
19:27 TimToady ooh.
19:28 PerlJam :hhgttg
19:28 TimToady that works on so many levels...
19:29 PerlJam :chill ?
19:29 TimToady As you chill toward 0C, you're reducing your possible states.
19:29 pmichaud (0K)
19:29 TimToady that too. :)
19:30 TimToady till all you have left are the one's allowed quantumly.
19:30 TimToady which is like *+ and friends.
19:30 pmichaud oooh
19:30 Juerd eh, *+?
19:31 audreyt "formal; distant; lack of enthusiasm or activity"
19:31 Juerd Either 0 or 1, or more? :)
19:31 pmichaud *+  forces * to be a backtracking quantifier
19:31 Juerd Ah
19:31 TimToady not been following p6l have we?
19:31 * PerlJam was thinking that :relax (the not so literal meaning of chill) would work too
19:31 pmichaud as opposed to *: which is greedy but doesn't backtrack
19:31 audreyt PerlJam: but it doesn't relax the parse...
19:31 Juerd TimToady: 402 Tuits required
19:31 * aufrank wonders if someone will come up with a connection b/w chill and freeze
19:31 audreyt it makes it stricter
19:31 PerlJam audreyt: no, it's a command ot the user :)
19:31 audreyt heh ok :)
19:31 TimToady except :relax has connotations of allowing more freedom, not less.
19:32 audreyt :chill is like, discourage your freedom
19:32 TimToady :chillout
19:32 particle_ :veg
19:32 audreyt :kewl
19:32 TimToady use ingy;
19:32 particle_ :peace
19:32 audreyt no way;
19:32 PerlJam Just use a parameterized :entropy
19:33 audreyt (I like the fact that :predictive is very long :))
19:33 pmichaud btw, :backtrack works, since the default is backtrack and :backtrack(0) means "don't backtrack"
19:33 TimToady :blackhole(•)
19:33 pmichaud then token is    rule :backtrack(0)
19:33 audreyt but that reads to me asid you are saying backtrack over 0
19:34 pmichaud sorry  rule:backtrack(false)  (or however we define "false")
19:34 audreyt rule :backtrack('')
19:34 TimToady hmm, :blackhole would never do...either in Russia, or on slashdot...
19:34 particle_ rule :-backtrack
19:34 audreyt that feels like double negatives...
19:35 audreyt unless... ooh
19:35 audreyt "token" is the base
19:35 audreyt "rule" is token :backtrack
19:35 audreyt "syntax" is token :words
19:36 TimToady i dunno.  I kinda like that rule is simple like rx.
19:36 PerlJam Could what particle said work as a general syntax?   :thingy == :thingy(1),   :-thingy == :thingy(0)
19:36 TimToady so far we've consistently gone with :foo(0) for the negative form.
19:37 pmichaud perhaps :!thingy  (but I still prefer :thingy(0) )
19:37 froh-doh joined perl6
19:37 audreyt in two places: :w(0) and :c(0), both in S02.
19:38 particle_ :-foo or :!foo could mean flip-flop the previous state
19:38 audreyt but (0) is fine... curiously, :w<> works also.
19:38 PerlJam the parentheses are good for general parameterization, but when you're talking about just "on" and "off", it seems like a simpler syntax would be better.
19:38 particle_ s/flip-flop/toggle/
19:39 PerlJam Of course, if :-thingy were valid syntax, it begs the question of what :-thingy(1) would mean (if anything)
19:39 PerlJam s/-/!/ if you like
19:39 TimToady I think :!foo reads much better.
19:39 audreyt :!w is natural if that's the case...
19:39 TimToady then :foo is the same as :?foo I suppose...
19:39 TimToady :)
19:41 audreyt still, feels strange to have boolean named arguments that default to true if you don't pass in false
19:41 audreyt but maybe that's just because I havn't got used to :!foo.
19:41 TimToady I avoided the Unix shell -foo syntax precisly because of its negative polarity, but it almost seems to be reinventing half the mistake if we don't have a negative form.
19:41 particle_ well, p6 defaults to 'use strict'
19:42 audreyt so what does :!foo(3) mean?
19:42 TimToady would be illegal, I presume.
19:42 audreyt :foo(!3) ?
19:42 PerlJam audreyt: I'd say it's a mistake.
19:42 audreyt cool
19:42 TimToady In fact, prevents scanning for an argument entirely.
19:43 PerlJam sounds perfect
19:43 particle_ so, warning if it finds one?
19:43 PerlJam particle_: error!
19:43 TimToady Does :?foo prevent :?foo(0) then?
19:43 particle_ yes
19:43 audreyt so they pass in boolean true and false
19:44 particle_ then + and - may be more appropriate
19:44 TimToady what I was thinking.
19:44 particle_ ? doesn't look true to me
19:44 TimToady me either
19:44 audreyt but + has twigil meaning
19:44 audreyt and I don't think we need a :?foo form
19:44 audreyt unless you want to use that to solve the space-bracket problem
19:44 audreyt q:?w(...)
19:44 TimToady yeah, if you're gonna add an extra character anyway
19:44 TimToady just add a space after :foo
19:45 audreyt right.
19:45 audreyt if you want to print 1
19:45 audreyt just print 1
19:45 audreyt it's !1 that takes typing :)
19:45 * ingy feels used
19:45 TimToady no;
19:45 ingy thx
19:46 audreyt tested, implemented, committing.
19:46 ingy o/~ there's no ingy like show ... o/~
19:46 TimToady have to run off for a bit.  I think things are pretty settled, at least on the surface...
19:47 TimToady biab&
19:48 audreyt foo(:!a :b :!c)
19:48 audreyt legal syntax, yay
19:49 xinming audreyt: what does that mean?
19:49 heng joined perl6
19:49 xinming foo(:!a :b :!c)   *_*
19:49 audreyt foo(a=>0, b=>1, c=>0)
19:49 heng may I have a perl 5 socket question in this channel ? I asked already in #perl , but no one answered yet, hehe
19:49 merlyn please dont't ask in #perl6
19:51 heng sure, thanks, got ur msg in #perl, thanks, :-)
19:51 svnbot6 r10047 | audreyt++ | * Implement :!foo form, which is like :foo except the value is false.
19:54 svnbot6 r10048 | audreyt++ | * 01-sanity tests: back port test renumbering fix from parrot.
19:57 Barry joined perl6
20:00 * audreyt reads on Artistic 2.0b14 more, and is filled with the desire to relicense Pugs to the SQLite 3-clause blessing.
20:01 audreyt (as well as all my CPAN modules.)
20:02 pmurias joined perl6
20:02 pmurias hi
20:02 xinming audreyt: why? :-)
20:02 audreyt xinming: license compatibility issues
20:04 audreyt pugs currently include a lot of 3rd party code
20:04 audreyt and each one needs to be rechecked against Artistic 2.0b14 for compatibility
20:04 audreyt plus, I'm pondering adding LGPL'ed code
20:04 audreyt in particular Judy
20:05 audreyt and allison in #parrotsketch warned that it will conflict with placing Artistic license restriction on the entire pugs tree.
20:05 xinming audreyt: but, the will the problem gone after perl 6 can be self-hosting?
20:05 PerlJam xinming: pugs != perl6
20:05 xinming hmm, I should say pugs...
20:05 xinming PerlJam: sorry. :-)
20:05 audreyt xinming: I doubt we will write all runtime parts without any C bits...
20:05 audreyt not any time soon
20:06 audreyt and I'm not really so skilled in C that I can reimplement judy, or syck, or other C libraries we use, from scratch
20:06 * PerlJam goes back to figuring out why his RT setup isn't working.
20:07 audreyt and also because I really like SQLite :)
20:07 * aufrank can't wait for the SQLite backend in the Mozilla suite
20:07 audreyt it's already in Firefox2 preview
20:08 audreyt so, in short, the SQLite noncopyright is the only way that's always compatible with whatever license of contrib/ tree uses
20:08 audreyt and there cannot be copyright disputes where there is no copyright :)
20:08 audreyt (also, Taiwan is not part of WIPO, so I'm entirely operating outside the native jurisdiction anyway)
20:09 xinming audreyt: what does syck do?
20:09 aufrank xinming: yaml parser
20:09 audreyt xinming: it parses and dumps YAML.
20:09 * gaal_ meows
20:09 saorge joined perl6
20:09 gaal_ is now known as gaal
20:10 aufrank audreyt: are you using the ff2 preview as your day-to-day browser?
20:11 audreyt aufrank: no, not yet
20:11 xinming audreyt: Is perl 5 version of yaml parser based on syck?
20:11 audreyt xinming: I wrote YAML::Syck.
20:11 audreyt ingy wrote a pure perl5 YAML.pm long before that.
20:11 audreyt (which I believe is the first YAML implementation in existence... or something close to that)
20:12 xinming audreyt: what's the license of ingy's version?
20:12 audreyt xinming: Perl
20:13 audreyt Artistic1/GPL
20:13 * xinming wonders if ingy's version isn't as powerful as C's version except the speed...
20:14 audreyt it is more featureful
20:14 audreyt certainly has more OO APIs.
20:14 xinming why not use ingy's version? :-P
20:14 obra It's slower ;)
20:15 obra lots slower
20:15 audreyt you need to embed perl5 for it :)
20:15 audreyt so takes a lot of memory as well.
20:15 audreyt also, you'd need to coerce your perl6  data into SVs
20:15 audreyt which adds another layer of overhead.
20:15 clkao it was also broken for lots of edge cases
20:16 * xinming look forwards perl 6's version...
20:16 xinming s/forwards/forward to/
20:17 * xinming thinks it's a pain that there are so many licenses...
20:18 ingy use YAML::3000;
20:20 lichtkind ?eval  imkreis:
20:20 lichtkind $zaehler++;
20:20 lichtkind $zaehler > 10 and goto frei;
20:20 lichtkind goto imkreis;
20:20 lichtkind frei:
20:20 evalbot_10044 is now known as evalbot_10048
20:20 evalbot_10048 Error:  unexpected "i" expecting program not a class name or Only one invocant allowed
20:21 xinming lol... I think you should write them in one line
20:23 lichtkind ?eval imkreis: $zaehler++; $zaehler > 10 and goto frei; goto imkreis; frei:
20:23 evalbot_10048 Error:  unexpected "i" expecting program not a class name or Only one invocant allowed
20:23 xinming $zaehler not declars...
20:24 lichtkind ?eval my $zaehler; imkreis: $zaehler++; $zaehler > 10 and goto frei; goto imkreis; frei:
20:24 evalbot_10048 Error:  unexpected "i" expecting comment, ";", Doc block, block declaration, declaration, construct, expression or end of input not a class name or Only one invocant allowed
20:24 lichtkind ?eval my $zaehler; imkreis:; $zaehler++; $zaehler > 10 and goto frei; goto imkreis; frei:
20:24 xinming lichtkind: I don't think goto has implemented in pugs...
20:24 evalbot_10048 Error:  unexpected "i" expecting comment, ";", Doc block, block declaration, declaration, construct, expression or end of input not a class name or Only one invocant allowed
20:24 xinming Loading Prelude... done.
20:24 xinming pugs> goto
20:24 xinming *** No such sub: "&goto"
20:24 xinming    at <interactive> line 1, column 1-5
20:24 xinming pugs>
20:24 lichtkind ok
20:30 DaGo joined perl6
20:33 lichtkind but after goto i dont need to set ; ?
20:33 lichtkind hust like in perl5
20:33 lichtkind just
20:36 qu1j0t3 joined perl6
20:36 xinming lichtkind: I think so, but It's not specified yet. IMO. :-)
20:36 lichtkind and block naming is without : ?
20:36 lichtkind thanks xinming
20:36 xinming lichtkind: no, I think it might be....   `BLKNAME: { .... };`
20:37 lichtkind but if goto blk... than the block will be executed?
20:37 xinming otherwise, base words are considered a function call.
20:37 xinming lichtkind: I think so.
20:38 xinming as I asked earilier...   how to implement if...  if $a == $b && $c == $d { ... }; will become....
20:38 xinming $a == $b && $c == $d && goto &BLK_passed to if...
20:39 xinming lichtkind: but I'm not sure... you'd better ask someone who is sure about this. :-) I'm still a newbie... :-P
20:40 lichtkind but you seem longer here than i :)
20:40 lichtkind xinming you are chinese?
20:40 xinming longer time does prove anything...
20:40 xinming lichtkind: yes, I am, In mainland.
20:41 lichtkind xinming cool im big fan of chinese culture
20:41 lichtkind and have some years of tai chi practice
20:42 lichtkind xinming you hack on pugs?
20:42 xinming lichtkind: In fact, if you learn perl 6, I'd say....  perl 6 is a bit like Chinese, and C is like English. :-)
20:42 xinming lichtkind: No, I just write some testing.
20:45 xinming BTW, `xinming otherwise, base words are considered a function call.`  <-- here I'm wrong, not base words, In fact, I wish to type bare words.
20:45 lichtkind xinming i hope your not scared but im also big fan of falun dafa
20:46 xinming lichtkind: I'm not, as I don't have religon... :-)
20:46 xinming lichtkind: are you american?
20:47 lichtkind xinming its no religion just a sort of qi gong that i even dont practice but i like their teachings
20:47 theorbtwo xinming: I think Larry has mentioned Japanese as an influence on p6, and I should expect they're very similar, at least on the level that p6 can be similar to a human language.
20:47 lichtkind xinming no im east german
20:47 lichtkind partly  czech
20:48 xinming theorbtwo: In fact, Japanese Characters are learnt from Chinese. :-)
20:48 theorbtwo xinming: I know.
20:48 theorbtwo lichtkind: How old are you?
20:48 lichtkind 30
20:48 lichtkind in a month
20:48 lichtkind but im looking like 24 :)
20:48 lichtkind and in the heart im 5
20:49 theorbtwo So it's not been east germany for slightly over half your lifetime.
20:49 * theorbtwo is only 25.
20:49 lichtkind http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=275692
20:49 theorbtwo My sister remembers the wall falling; I don't.
20:49 lichtkind theorbtwo its me giving my first talk
20:50 xinming theorbtwo: why I have that kind of feeling is all because the context... but this feeling isn't so strong when I learn programming in perl 5.
20:50 lichtkind theorbtwo your german too?
20:50 * xinming is only 23
20:50 fglock joined perl6
20:51 lichtkind xinming what you mean?
20:51 * xinming doesn't know if he is the youngest here.. :-) as Juerd is 5 month older than xinming
20:51 xinming lichtkind: I'm 23 years old...
20:51 lichtkind theorbtwo i was 13 when wall came down
20:51 theorbtwo No.  My sister watched it live on TV from her German class.  I'm 25, and from Lancaster, PA, USA.
20:51 lichtkind xinming no i meant your previous sentence
20:51 theorbtwo I did live in Munich for 2 years, though.
20:51 * rw-rw-r-- is also 23.
20:51 pmurias i'm probably the youngest pugs commiter
20:52 gaal unlikely.
20:52 theorbtwo nothingmuch is quite young.
20:53 gaal don't we have a commiter who got their bit on their birthday?
20:53 gaal like, the 0th one
20:53 xinming lichtkind: perl is a context sensive language, which means, what it returns, It is all about what the caller want(eg, assignment), if you read more about synopsis... you will know the want function, :-)
20:54 pmurias i'm 16, nothingmuch is 2X
20:54 lichtkind uuuh i dont know the want function ..should read this
20:54 xinming My birth is 1983.11.05 :-)
20:54 xinming ....
20:54 theorbtwo BTW, you might want to change easter(n) to east(ern) Germany.
20:54 pmurias xinming:1989.12.24
20:55 xinming young enough. :-)
20:55 buu So who is writing the builtin christmasy_day function?
20:57 * xinming needs to go bed... It's 05:00 now...
20:57 * xinming waves...
20:57 xinming bye all.
20:57 gaal night
20:57 theorbtwo G'night, xinming.
20:57 pmurias night
20:58 pmurias buu: i can write the christmas_eve function
20:58 pmurias :)
20:58 buu pmurias: Excellent.
20:58 buu pmurias: We have to compete some how.
20:59 lichtkind xinming im also not much into religion but i believ in god
20:59 lichtkind xinming or rather to say i know he is there
21:00 * xinming needs to finish talking about the god...
21:01 xinming I believe we are the God... No one else...  :-)
21:02 xinming If our technolegy reaches a level which is high enough, we can make something we never see... and we can also make another planet full of creatures, and let themself do the rest of evolution... :-)
21:03 amv i'm constantly getting this spam which says: "she needs a better sex"
21:03 xinming maybe sound crazy... :-)
21:04 xinming amv: you can tell him(it) "Fucking too much is bad for your(her) health"  ;-)
21:04 lichtkind xinming its true god is within us
21:05 pmurias amv: always ask the spammers to phone back :)
21:05 amv but i'm a bit puzzled with it because i always thought female _is_ the beter sex ;)
21:06 amv but they are selling viagra, so probably they just need more customers and thus would like all females to turn into males..
21:06 lichtkind amv no im glad to be male
21:07 xinming amv: I think you can ask his(her) phone... and advertise it on msn-space... :-)    Kind of DDOS.  ;-)
21:08 amv lichtkind: but you can't give birth.. doens't that make you kind of inferior? soon they will be able to produce semsn from female dna and males become completely useless..
21:09 Juerd Useless?
21:09 Juerd Or redundant?
21:09 lichtkind amv no because you need both
21:09 Juerd Some redundancy is good.
21:09 * Juerd is redundant
21:10 amv Hmm.. why don't partnerships have redundancy?
21:10 amv they always have only two single points of failure
21:10 xinming amv: I don't think so, If there is a possibility to make people through the lab... I'd prefer the natural one...
21:10 Juerd If there are two, they're no longer single ;)
21:10 Ann joined perl6
21:11 amv Juerd: a point there ;)
21:11 Juerd Hello, Ann
21:11 Ann Hi there
21:11 * xinming really goes to bed...
21:11 xinming Ann: Hi, have a good time here...
21:11 * xinming sinks...
21:11 amv xinming: but why would you prefer a person born from the dna of a male and a female over a person born from the dna of two females?
21:12 theorbtwo Juerd: It's even worse then a single point of failure -- it's two points, either of which can cause catastrophic failure.
21:12 Ann Thx, just listening in... Only about in the middle of the Alpaca :-)
21:13 pmurias amv: actually genders developed for a pourpous it avoids mitochondria wastage
21:13 amv pmurias: could i have that in english? =)
21:14 pmurias purpose
21:14 amv what is mitochondrial wastage and how having two genders avoids it?
21:15 pmurias you only take mitochondrials from your mother
21:15 pmurias if you took them from both parents, they would evolve arms and engage into bloody conflict
21:15 Barry Could someone explain what the purpose of perbot's phone function was when it worked?
21:16 obra does phone msg people on your behalf, barry?
21:16 pmurias there for semen don't have so much mitochondrias, and are cheaper to produce
21:16 obra freenode has crazy /msg policies to prevent spammers
21:16 Barry perlbot help
21:16 perlbot (fact)::tell (who) about (what)::(what) > (who)::learn (what) as (info)::relearn (fact) as (info)::phone (phone number)::shorten (url)::shorten it::search (module)::docs (module)::perldoc -f (function)::jargon (term)::math::fortune::flip::host (type) (record)::rot13::roll (die)::tempconv (temp)::scramble (foo)::8ball::slap::diss::what time is it::top/bottom (number) karma::geoip (ip)
21:17 obra oh. wacky
21:17 Barry You feed it a telephone number, so...I don't know
21:17 pmurias once you have to times of gamets you have gender specialisations
21:17 theorbtwo perlbot, phone +18005551212
21:17 perlbot Bad number: +18005551212
21:17 amv pmurias: but why couldn't a female produce also semen so that two females could impregnate each other?
21:17 theorbtwo perlbot, phone 18005551212
21:17 perlbot Bad number: 18005551212
21:17 theorbtwo perlbot, phone 8005551212
21:17 perlbot That function is broken for now, try back later
21:18 Barry Good number though
21:18 pmurias s/times/types
21:18 ribo joined perl6
21:18 obra barry: http://chrisangell.com/incoming/chrisbot/v3/Chrisbot/Common.pm
21:18 obra does reverse lookups
21:18 theorbtwo I suspect it's for reverse-look... ah.
21:19 Barry Oh.
21:19 ribo left perl6
21:19 amv pmurias: (if we are thinking of an evolutional counterpart for the act of artificially extracting dna from a female to impregnate an another female)
21:19 Barry Defunct functions should have better documentation.
21:19 fglock joined perl6
21:19 pmurias we could put the extrac mitochondrias to some other use :)
21:19 amv is there a need for cromosome y? =)
21:20 pmurias s/extra
21:20 pmurias amv: it contains mostly junk, but it activates other genes
21:20 amv but i think i'll stop talking because it seems that all i can do is derail conversation ;)
21:22 SamB so is y chromosome like key file?
21:22 pmurias i'm not really an expert, but it's sort of
21:22 pmurias actually most of the genome are comments
21:23 SamB well, might be
21:23 pmurias containing dead code
21:23 SamB it could be that they are padding or something
21:23 SamB or unneeded library functions
21:23 pmurias evoultion is a patchwork job
21:24 pmurias it uses often cut & paste
21:24 SamB they should add a DNA mode to IDA
21:24 fglock re: a word for "token": "production" "subrule"
21:24 theorbtwo production and subrule are more general.
21:24 theorbtwo In purticular, anything that you can write in rule syntax is a production.
21:25 pmurias that could be a argument against Inteligent Design, God would have used source control, instead of keeping old code in comments
21:25 SamB even with source control you sometimes keep old code in comments...
21:26 Barry left perl6
21:26 fglock theorbtwo: http://colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6?date=2006-04-20,Thu&amp;sel=325#l510
21:26 pmurias he surly wrote a code generator, and that's why there's so much redundancy
21:26 SamB I thought it was to guard against damage
21:27 SamB and encourage microevolution and stuff
21:27 pmurias it actually can help in adaptation
21:27 amv pmurias, intelligent designers would counterargue that all source control systems of that time were proprietary since free software movement didin't exist yet
21:27 SamB hahah
21:28 pmurias *bang*, archaic genome sequence for long fangs activates (*let the suckers run away*)
21:28 ruoso joined perl6
21:28 pmurias night
21:29 larsen joined perl6
21:29 SamB anyway, God seems to have used some sort of distributed source control system
21:30 pmurias sleep&
21:30 aufrank joined perl6
21:30 amv i'd liket o get my hands on that - it must be quite good since all branches of human are still easily integratable
21:38 aufrank did TimToady react to damian's regex/token/rule suggestion at all in the channel?
21:41 pmichaud aufrank: I didn't see anything
21:43 * aufrank is keeping score at home
21:47 cognominal audreyt: I am studying if siva and parrot objet can be merged, The problem is that implementation wise,  a parrotobject is already an array. It seems that an special pmc object could be baked with a siva pmc as unique attribute  so that an array access would be rerouted to the siva pmc.
21:50 cognominal I am not sure yet if this can be done. I would like to avoid to touch anything beyond that parrotobjectwithuniqueattribute pmc and the siva pmc
21:50 PerlJam What is siva?
21:50 theorbtwo Siva is the implementation of captures in parrot.
21:50 PerlJam Why is it called siva?
21:51 cognominal that a pmc I have created that has the hash, the array,  int and string natures
21:51 PerlJam Oh, I see.
21:51 cognominal ...because it juggles with many things
21:51 cognominal audreyt would like to use it for Captures, I an not sure it is possible.
21:51 PerlJam aufrank: who is winning?  :-)
21:52 cognominal I designed it for nodes of trees, not as real objects
21:52 cognominal so I try to see if we can get both
21:52 PerlJam cognominal: don't captures potentially have an invocant slot?  where would that fit in siva?
21:53 cognominal PerlJam: yes, that's what I say about siva not being object
21:57 larsen_ joined perl6
21:57 cognominal btw: in the parrotobject, the array is used to hold  attributes
22:02 stclare` joined perl6
22:05 soisoisoi joined perl6
22:11 meppl gute nacht
22:11 cognominal bonne nuits les petits :)
22:30 Juerd "hello i feather please i not perl 6 but need server"
22:31 clkao lol
22:31 Juerd The best thing I can do is make fun of it here, because the email address in the From: header bounces -- over quota.
22:33 aufrank Juerd, I not perl 6 either but need dinner please i
22:34 clkao
22:34 Juerd Hehe :)
22:34 * clkao dccs trotters to aufrank
22:48 Limbic_Region joined perl6
22:55 Southen joined perl6
23:01 Quell joined perl6
23:05 azuroth joined perl6
23:10 ruoso left perl6
23:20 Khisanth joined perl6
23:34 cognominal_ joined perl6
23:43 pmichaud TimToady: ping
23:59 * pmichaud wanders off

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