Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-04-29

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
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02:32 stevan audreyt: ping
02:33 stevan audreyt: I think we need to take a serious look at Dylan (if you haven't already)
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02:36 audreyt stevan: I have already did
02:36 audreyt the day it won ICFP'06 second place.
02:36 stevan audreyt: :)
02:36 audreyt Dylan, Scala, VB
02:36 stevan I just got a book on it in the mail today
02:36 audreyt is currently the 3 thing constantly in my mind for AST design :)
02:36 audreyt excellent
02:37 stevan it sounds very much like Perl 6
02:37 stevan static when it can, dynamic when it needs to
02:39 audreyt yes
02:39 audreyt and "just another lisp with infix syntax"
02:39 stevan :)
02:39 audreyt I think Dylan is perl6 without advertisement, in a way...
02:39 stevan Algol never goes outta style :)
02:40 stevan so nothingmuch is using Class::MOP/Moose as a platform for his Perl 6 compilation experiments :)
02:40 audreyt though the Dylan community is... let's say not very vibrant.
02:41 audreyt stevan: woot! url?
02:41 stevan we need to get you involved once you finish playing with the parser :)
02:41 audreyt I've already finished (mostly) :)
02:41 stevan audreyt: irc.perl.org #moose mostly right now
02:41 audreyt kcool
02:41 audreyt but where's code? :D
02:41 stevan in nothingmuch's head :)
02:41 audreyt aw
02:41 * audreyt thinks nothing exists without a url
02:41 stevan he is just getting familiar with the MOP right now
02:42 audreyt k. I'd like to see more misc/pX/* experiments :)
02:42 * stevan thinks nothingmuch's crainial server might be down for maint right now :)
02:42 stevan its pretty late in .il
02:42 audreyt k.
02:42 audreyt I've been tracking Moose releases and internals
02:43 stevan we have plans for Moose -> Module::Compile -> Super::Moose
02:43 stevan audreyt: your comments on the TypeConstraint stuff would be much appreciated
02:43 stevan that is the part I am least confident about
02:43 audreyt well, you don't use container objects
02:44 stevan mugwump is playing around with collection containers right now
02:44 stevan but I didnt want to impose that onto everyone in order to use Moose
02:44 audreyt I think type constraints belongs to the (say) collection/scalar containers
02:45 audreyt but it's okay for the class to have a passthru interface
02:45 audreyt basically serving as heterogenous hash
02:45 audreyt that places constraints based onkey
02:45 audreyt just for performance
02:45 audreyt the outside interface should remain the same
02:45 audreyt the only difference is when you take $obj.property as lvalue
02:45 stevan nothingmuch and I are working on an Instance sub-protocol, which might allow tighter integration
02:45 audreyt excellent
02:46 stevan and thoughts of use Moose -strict; have been circulating
02:47 * audreyt ponders JFDI and port her $job-Jifty code to Moose
02:47 audreyt (and its use of  Perl6::Subs to SuperMoose)
02:47 stevan the catalyst crew has been doing lots of Mooseing lately
02:47 audreyt yes, I've been tracking #catalyst too :)
02:48 stevan obra needs to get movin, cause a Moose is much bigger than a Pony :)
02:48 audreyt maybe we'll ship with a Moosey
02:48 audreyt Moosey in the Sky with Diamonds
02:48 stevan :)
02:49 obra "Camoony"
02:49 ingy Elk
02:49 stevan obra: you will need Perl 6 to write that one :)
02:50 stevan hey ingy,..
02:50 ingy stevan!
02:50 stevan I will need a spork tutorial at YAPC
02:50 audreyt stevan: so, Super::* is like the namespace for dialects?
02:50 stevan audreyt: no, just silliness
02:51 audreyt sure
02:51 stevan Moose::Hopped::Up::On::Crack is just as good
02:51 audreyt but we're not exactly unknown for take silliness and push them into produciton
02:51 stevan :D
02:52 obra Moose::::Overdosed::On::Speed::Ecstasy
02:52 stevan obra: you could probably alias that as Moose::Raver
02:52 obra Moose::Candy
02:53 stevan nothingmuch already claimed Moose::POOP for a Moose ORM
02:55 audreyt ok. I'm now going to Yingge
02:55 audreyt # http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yingge
02:55 audreyt and paint some Moose porcelain dishes for lambdamoose
02:55 stevan :D
02:56 stevan in thousands of years people will find them and be like... wtf?
02:57 audreyt *wave* &
02:57 stevan enjoy
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05:17 meppl guten morgen
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05:37 Pete_I hmm. first time i've been greeted in german. g'morning to you too, meppl.
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05:57 meppl good morning pete
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08:20 svnbot6 r10125 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Parser: Refactor ruleInConditional into ruleBracketClass
08:20 svnbot6 r10125 | audreyt++ |   and use it to implement line-ending statement-terminating blocks:
08:20 svnbot6 r10125 | audreyt++ |     my &foo := {
08:20 svnbot6 r10125 | audreyt++ |         say 1;
08:20 svnbot6 r10125 | audreyt++ |         say 2;
08:20 svnbot6 r10125 | audreyt++ |     }   # Look, no semicolon!
08:20 svnbot6 r10125 | audreyt++ |     my &bar := {
08:20 svnbot6 r10125 | audreyt++ |         say 3;
08:20 svnbot6 r10125 | audreyt++ |         say 4;
08:20 svnbot6 r10125 | audreyt++ |     }   # ditto
08:20 svnbot6 r10125 | audreyt++ |   See L<S04/Statement-ending blocks> for details.  This made parsing
08:20 svnbot6 r10125 | audreyt++ |   another 5% or so faster...
08:22 audreyt bbl again... &
08:39 gaal If you need a mooseword starting with C, there's Caribou.
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10:43 kioto hi all
10:50 kioto what is the stage of the new perl6
10:50 nothingmuch new?
10:50 nothingmuch i thoght there was only one perl 6
10:50 nothingmuch or do you mean pugs?
10:50 nothingmuch in which case: fun, impressive, and with lots to do
10:51 nothingmuch http://smoke.pugscode.org
10:52 Juerd nothingmuch++  # good summary
10:54 kioto but what is need for a stable version of perl6
10:54 Juerd kioto: needed, or the need?
10:55 kioto both
10:57 nothingmuch he need:
10:57 nothingmuch have a nice language
10:57 nothingmuch that can be used in a professional environment
10:57 nothingmuch without taking a financial risk
10:57 nothingmuch and without driving the userbase away
10:57 nothingmuch (i'm only addressing stability ;-)
10:58 nothingmuch needed: lots... we're still in the poking around stage
10:58 nothingmuch but we think we're closer to the end than to the begining
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11:06 nothingmuch hmm
11:06 nothingmuch interesting
11:06 nothingmuch http://blog.moertel.com/articles/2006/04/2​8/the-supermarket-pricing-kata-in-haskell
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12:13 pasteling "scw" at 140.112.30.82 pasted "Pugs::Compiler::Rule compile error" (10 lines, 1K) at http://sial.org/pbot/16966
12:15 scw Any idea? there are both Rule.pm and Rule.pmc under Pugs/Compiler/Rule/
12:16 scw It used to choose the .pmc, but not knowing why it doesn't today, weird
12:20 audreyt it takes
12:21 audreyt "touch Rule.pmc"
12:21 audreyt or
12:21 audreyt "perl Makefile.PL"
12:21 audreyt or put pugs/lib to your @INC
12:23 svnbot6 r10126 | audreyt++ | * more parsefail fixes...
12:26 scw perl will look at the mtime?
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12:28 audreyt yeah, though we get that check disabled for bleadperl (5.9.x)
12:28 audreyt for now, try get v6.pm inside your path
12:28 audreyt or just "touch" it
12:28 audreyt the Makefile.PL should handle it
12:29 clkao audreyt: hey, i need your help
12:29 scw I touched it and passed :)
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12:30 audreyt clkao: oh, right. I'm not holding an active title of anything now...
12:30 audreyt clkao: you sure I'm eligible for doing that?
12:30 clkao yes, for the past of course. (msg plz)
12:30 audreyt k
12:42 audreyt TimToady: parsec complains that
12:42 audreyt @moose.map:{'x'}
12:42 audreyt and
12:42 audreyt @moose.infix:{'+'}
12:42 audreyt can't be disambiged. thoughts?
12:44 audreyt @moose.map: {'x'} # forcing a space would work but a bit draconian
12:48 audreyt for now I enumerate the syntactic categs
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12:52 cognominal juste posted question about interroperability with Javascript
12:53 cognominal It has interestings ramifications
12:53 clkao audreyt: btw, spidermonkey trunk has yeild (almost)
12:53 clkao yield, even
12:53 audreyt oooh
12:53 clkao generator
12:53 audreyt yup
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12:54 clkao https://bugzilla.mozilla.o​rg/show_bug.cgi?id=326466
12:54 clkao not totally committed yet, but i think soon
12:56 audreyt excellent
12:57 cognominal clkao: e4x has already a nice foreach iterator
12:58 clkao *nod*
13:06 cognominal audreyt: have you read http://research.microsoft.com/​~emeijer/Papers/LINQSigmod.pdf   http://research.microsoft.​com/~emeijer/Papers/XS.pdf
13:08 cognominal Too bad this Meijer guy works for the evil empire :)
13:09 * audreyt looks at the PDFs
13:10 cognominal I am interested in it because of my xml related stuff in bili
13:10 audreyt I've read the Sigmod one
13:11 audreyt the XS one I've skimmed
13:11 Juerd audreyt: Be careful! Reading a Microsoft publication, and using the knowledge gained from it in open source software may be illegal ;)
13:14 audreyt too bad, I've read most of SPJ's papers ;)
13:14 cognominal SPK and Meijer papers are so good.
13:15 xinming No matter what other used... /me is just looking forward perl 6. :-P
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13:20 svnbot6 r10127 | audreyt++ | * workaround the "fixity ambig" problem:
13:20 svnbot6 r10127 | audreyt++ |     @array.prefix:{'~'};        # method call "prefix:<~>"
13:20 svnbot6 r10127 | audreyt++ |     @array.map:{'~'};           # method call "map"
13:21 svnbot6 r10127 | audreyt++ |   by hard coding the list of acceptable category names.
13:21 svnbot6 r10127 | audreyt++ |   May need a ruling from @Larry to resolve this.
13:21 theorbtwo I suspect the rulling will be something along the lines of "nicely done".
13:22 theorbtwo Is it supposed to be possible to add new gramatical catagories?
13:23 audreyt I have... no idea.
13:31 nothingmuch .prefix:{'~'} etc have always bothered me
13:31 nothingmuch they're consistent with the declaration
13:31 nothingmuch but i've always had this urge to escape them
13:32 nothingmuch i mean, in my head i parsed it as .prefix getting a subref
13:32 nothingmuch even though .prefix is a category i'm used to
13:35 Juerd I personally think we're better off with simple namespaces rather than categories, but I haven't really thought that through.
13:35 Juerd e.g. prefix::('~')
13:36 Juerd postcircumfix::(<{ }>)
13:36 Juerd Though perhaps the <> can make the () optional, and perhaps we can use {} instead of (). I don't know.
13:37 Juerd I think that with ::, it looks less magical, and more natural.
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13:37 Juerd No ambiguity in $foo.prefix:: either
13:37 Juerd (afaict)
13:37 * Juerd doesn't like all the inventions of new syntax, where existing syntax can be used
13:40 aufrank Juerd: sorry to jump in late-- what's the proposed new syntax?
13:40 Juerd aufrank: It's not new.
13:41 Juerd My wording was misleading.
13:41 Juerd Or, eh, wrong.
13:41 Juerd (To avoid more misleading)
13:41 aufrank heh
13:41 aufrank ok, well what are you bother by NOW? (some people, jeez)
13:42 Juerd hm?
13:42 Juerd I'm not really bothered by the current situation.
13:43 * Juerd normally doesn't mention most of what he thinks, until he's sure it makes sense.
13:43 Juerd But in this case, maybe it could resolve this ambiguity
13:43 aufrank I was teasing, I just want to know what alternative to $foo.prefix:: is being discussed
13:43 Juerd That *is* the alternative :)
13:44 Juerd Currently, grammatical categories are written with a single colon.
13:45 aufrank these are the things that are often called adverbs?
13:46 theorbtwo No.
13:46 theorbtwo When you write +$foo, you're really calling a method on $foo.
13:46 theorbtwo That method is currently known as prefix:{'+'}.
13:47 aufrank ok
13:47 theorbtwo You can also use normal method call syntax, $foo.prefix:{'+'}.
13:47 theorbtwo But that could mean that you want to call $foo.prefix with an argument of {'+'}
13:49 aufrank is a bair closure following a single colon really an argument?  I thought it would have to be wrapped as a capture
13:50 Juerd Okay, if I'm saying things that I have thought about, but of which I'm not sure they make sense, anyway, let's add this related one:
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13:50 Juerd I think \w+: should be a subcall, where : is an ultimate left paren, that ends at the end of the expression.
13:50 Juerd say:+3  # unambiguously say(+3), not (say)+3
13:51 theorbtwo I'm not real clear on the current semantics of indirect-object colon.
13:51 audreyt see S03, Invocant marker.
13:51 Juerd Doesn't have to clash, as that requires two terms on the LHS
13:51 Juerd iirc
13:52 audreyt but indeed, according to S03,
13:52 audreyt @array.map: {4}
13:52 audreyt is preferred
13:52 audreyt or
13:52 audreyt @array.map({4})
13:52 audreyt but it's not sure whether .map:{4} is always a syntactic category
13:52 audreyt or can be somehow disambiguated
13:55 Juerd I don't want whitespace there :(
13:55 audreyt the thing with @array.infix::<ff> is that it looks like @array.infix::ff
13:55 audreyt no, neither do I
13:55 svnbot6 r10128 | audreyt++ | * Support for .[0], .{foo()}, .<bar> (implicit $_).
13:55 svnbot6 r10128 | audreyt++ | * Corrected several test's parsefails, mostly due to
13:55 svnbot6 r10128 | audreyt++ |   abusing the infinite-backtracking conditional parser.
13:55 Juerd The colon is in the place of whitespace, because whitespace wouldn't work.
13:55 audreyt right.
13:56 aufrank we could have a long colon like the long dot
13:56 Juerd That's what I don't like about the long dot either, for single line uses: there is a character that enables, but then also forces whitespace, whereas something that can replace whitespace feels better
13:56 Juerd I wish I could think of something better, but I can't
13:57 audreyt I think that nicely summarizes my feeling about long dot
13:57 audreyt otoh, I think $.foo is an excellent replacement for ./foo, and am looking forward implementing it.
13:58 theorbtwo r10128 corrected test parsefails that you decided were the tests being buggy?
13:58 Juerd I think $.foo is nice too. It took a while for me to learn how to read it, because I was too used to the . twigil.
13:59 aufrank Juerd: I don't feel strongly one way or the other about the long dot, but one point in its favor is that it allows people to format code in a way that they consider to be more readable
13:59 Juerd Heh, isn't it weird to be "used to" language constructs in a language that according to many people doesn't exist yet? ;)
13:59 aufrank and if you just replace whitespace you don't get that, do you?
13:59 Juerd aufrank: Of course you DO get that.
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13:59 Juerd Suppose long dot was just .. (ignoring ranges)
13:59 aufrank I guess I don't understand what you mean by replacing whitespace, then
14:00 Juerd $xyzzy.bar();
14:00 Juerd $fooz..bar();
14:00 Juerd $foo. .bar();
14:00 Juerd Still lining up.
14:00 Juerd And IMHO, in a nicer way.
14:00 Juerd Because long dot now sucks:
14:00 Juerd $xyzzy.bar();
14:01 Juerd $fooz. .bar():  # not lining up, so you have to change the PREVIOUS line to use the long dot TOO!
14:01 Juerd resulting in:
14:01 Juerd $xyzzy. .bar();
14:01 Juerd $fooz.  .bar();
14:01 Juerd Which isn't as nice as my first block of examples.
14:01 aufrank now I see
14:01 aufrank thanks
14:01 Juerd But alas, .. is very important.
14:01 theorbtwo Hm, how about we make : after a method call be a left paren that will end at ; (without eating the ;)?  (Almost Juerd's idea, with a slight reformulation.)
14:01 TimToady it's already that, to2
14:02 Juerd theorbtwo: I was suggesting it for subcalls. It already exists for method calls :)
14:02 theorbtwo Ah.
14:02 TimToady a grammatical category installs two longest tokens, one ending with < and one ending with {
14:02 Juerd It's exactly what the $foo.map:{} construct abuses - there's no special :{} postfix afaik
14:03 theorbtwo Can we just require space after super-left-paren :?
14:03 TimToady fixing long dot would involve changing the first character to something other than dot.
14:03 audreyt TimToady: ok, so @foo.map:{...} works
14:03 audreyt because there no such longest "map:{" token
14:03 TimToady right
14:03 audreyt (and there is a third token, ending with french <<)
14:04 TimToady right.
14:04 audreyt @moose.elk:{foo}.antler:{bar}
14:04 audreyt does this work?
14:04 audreyt "work" as in parsing a
14:04 audreyt as
14:04 audreyt @moose.elk({foo}).antler({bar})
14:04 audreyt instead of
14:04 audreyt @moose.elk({foo}.antler({bar}))
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14:06 TimToady tokens would be elk :{foo} .antler :{bar} so I believe so.
14:06 TimToady (using token to include supertokens)
14:07 Juerd Shoes are polished again.
14:07 Juerd 16:05 < TimToady> fixing long dot would involve changing the first character to something other than dot.
14:07 Juerd Or changing the range operator ;)
14:07 TimToady I think I know which is more important...
14:07 Juerd We could have infix ... now that there's no postfix ... anymore ;)
14:07 theorbtwo I think so too.
14:08 Juerd TimToady: I think be agree too :)
14:08 TimToady and it isn't lining up long dots
14:08 Juerd TimToady: See? We agree.
14:08 TimToady unfortunately there aren't any convenient ASCII characters left for changing the opening of the long dot.
14:08 Juerd I used to maintain a table of taken characters in op and term positions
14:09 Juerd But then ran out of tuits
14:09 aufrank $foo,.bar
14:09 theorbtwo It'd be nice to make middle-dot an any-length dot, but I'm afraid it isn't latin-1, and I can't presently type it anyway.
14:09 Juerd aufrank: foo($foo,.bar)
14:09 aufrank $fo, .bah
14:09 aufrank yeah
14:09 Juerd aufrank: So won't work.
14:09 TimToady well, I have to run off for most of the day.
14:09 theorbtwo Have a nice weekend.
14:09 Juerd TimToady: Are you still strongly against using $ and @ infix?
14:09 aufrank have a good one TT
14:10 TimToady As an option, though, a Latin-1 would work along with ". ".
14:10 Juerd (not necessarily related to long dot)
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14:10 TimToady something like ¬
14:11 TimToady ta &
14:11 theorbtwo Oh, ·
14:11 theorbtwo That is latin-1.
14:11 TimToady something that wouldn't be wanted for infix!!!!
14:11 TimToady really &
14:12 KingDillyDilly audreyt: (continued from 2006-04-27 discussion of PAR), I'm still thinking about http://search.cpan.org/~smueller/PAR/script/pp even though I don't need to use it. The synopsis seems to be all I need even if I don't understand the examples, so I felt dumb for a minute, but another problem I would have had is figuring out how to install PAR so the examples would work. There's no "use" so it doesn't seem like a module. If it
14:12 Juerd BACKTICK!
14:13 audreyt KingDillyDilly: CPAN modules often come with scripts
14:13 Juerd $xyzzy.bar()
14:13 audreyt like lwo-download
14:13 Juerd $fooz`.bar()
14:13 audreyt lwp-download
14:13 Juerd $foo` .bar()
14:13 audreyt KingDillyDilly: so, install PAR like a normal CPAN module, will get "pp" running on your system
14:13 audreyt I guess I can make it clearer in the docs.
14:14 audreyt Juerd: aw.
14:14 Juerd audreyt: Which aw is that? :)
14:14 cognominal KingDillyDilly: you questions belong to anotherr channel
14:14 theorbtwo ¨ might work, but I suspect is often hard to type || display (that's dead diaresis as a character on it's own).
14:14 audreyt Juerd: I'd rather type a full-width dot ;)
14:15 Juerd audreyt: is ` so awkwardly placed on your keyboard, or do you hate the glyph?
14:15 aufrank Juerd: not bad
14:15 KingDillyDilly audreyt: I have fifty gazillion ideas for improved usability that go beyond what anyone does. Just raising the point because we were discussing it.
14:15 aufrank it reads pretty nicely to me
14:15 audreyt KingDillyDilly: right. you want a commit bit to PAR?
14:16 KingDillyDilly No, that's ok. I think there would be a conflict of interest with my O'Reilly boycott and stuff.
14:16 audreyt (so you can go in and fix the docs, etc.)
14:16 audreyt I have no idea what PAR has to do with O'Reilly, but sure.
14:16 audreyt Juerd: I think the multiline
14:16 cognominal O'Reilly boycott?  do you know that this guy has done a lot for Perl
14:16 audreyt $moose`
14:17 audreyt  .blah(3)`
14:17 Juerd audreyt: For multiline, I still want ..., actually.
14:17 audreyt .bleh(4)
14:17 audreyt etc
14:17 audreyt oh ok. so two forms.
14:17 Juerd I keep forgetting that that no longer exists.
14:17 Juerd I think ".", like "`" is too small to be trailing.
14:17 Juerd $foo.
14:17 Juerd .bar
14:17 cognominal KingDillyDilly:  you should probably be consistent and boycott Perl too
14:17 Juerd $foo`
14:17 Juerd .bar
14:17 Juerd Little difference, to me
14:17 KingDillyDilly cognominal: That belongs on another channel
14:17 Juerd (probably depends on font a lot)
14:17 Juerd Whereas
14:17 Juerd $foo...
14:17 Juerd .bar is clearer
14:17 audreyt Juerd: at least to my eyes the ".\n" suggests continuation
14:17 Juerd To me.
14:17 audreyt (but I agree with ...)
14:17 Juerd audreyt: Well, to my eyes, ".\n" suggests "full stop" :)
14:17 audreyt (and yes, it's highly font dependent.)
14:18 audreyt oy :)
14:18 Juerd audreyt: Which is why I initially didn't like the change from -> (motion, action) to . (full stop)
14:18 audreyt I wonder if "$foo. blah" can be made to mean "$foo.blah"
14:18 audreyt one-char lookahead
14:18 audreyt (ok, that idea is even worse.)
14:19 Juerd audreyt: How do you feel about having both `<ws>?\. and \.\.\.<ws>\.   ?
14:19 Juerd Where every sane style guide would prescribe `. for single line, ... . for multiline
14:21 * audreyt notes that ".:meth" is unclaimed
14:22 audreyt I'm fine with "$obj.:meth" meaning same as "$obj.meth"
14:22 audreyt that even plays well with the other (dubiously useful) regex-inspired
14:22 audreyt "$obj.+meth" "$obj.?meth" "$obj.*meth"
14:23 Juerd Hmmm
14:23 KingDillyDilly audreyt: "full/path/to/file" can be used instead of just the file name in PAR, right?
14:23 audreyt KingDillyDilly: yes.
14:23 Juerd audreyt: I'm incredibly unsure about the glyphs, but technically, I like it.
14:23 KingDillyDilly ok
14:23 Juerd The dozen sided application of : is dangerous
14:24 Juerd $foo.:foo
14:24 justatheory joined perl6
14:24 Juerd $foo:.foo
14:24 Juerd Mean very different things
14:24 audreyt then, either "$obj.   :moose" can be the long dot
14:24 Juerd However, in BOTH, ":" reads "commit".
14:24 Juerd Hmmm
14:24 audreyt or we retain long dot syntax.
14:24 audreyt yes, in both, ':' reads 'commit', which is why I think it actually works.
14:24 Juerd Hmmmm
14:24 Juerd You rock, audreyt
14:25 theorbtwo I don't think it's obvious to people who don't write perl parsers that .: reads commit.
14:25 Juerd I'm no longer unsure about the glyph :)
14:25 * audreyt curtsies. :)
14:25 Juerd theorbtwo: Perl people write Perl regexes, period.
14:25 audreyt '.' reads "call"
14:25 audreyt ':' reads "commit"
14:25 Juerd theorbtwo: People not used to Perl can't read the language ANYWAY.
14:26 Juerd Perl is a different language than all those other languages. There's no way to have it syntactically compatible...
14:26 theorbtwo So . reads call (or die), and .: reads call or die.
14:26 Juerd Just like Haskell is very different from both C-like languages, and Perl 6
14:26 Juerd "." reads die?
14:27 theorbtwo No, it reads call, and the "or die if the method doesn't exist" is implicit.
14:27 theorbtwo Unlike .?, where it's explicit that you don't die if the method doesn't exit.
14:27 theorbtwo exist.
14:27 Juerd That's very far fetched.
14:27 theorbtwo Then what the heck did you mean by "commit"?
14:27 Juerd Do you not know what ":" means in a regex?
14:28 audreyt I think you two are in vehement agreement :)
14:28 audreyt theorbtwo: yes, it's just like
14:28 audreyt m/.:/
14:28 audreyt and
14:28 audreyt m/./
14:28 theorbtwo It means that if you try to backtrack from the right of the colon to the left of the colon, you die.
14:28 audreyt means the same thing.
14:28 Juerd I think theorbtwo doesn't understand how to read commit, and likes parens too much ;)
14:28 Juerd theorbtwo: No, it doesn't involve dieing
14:28 audreyt I think theorbtwo is parsing things just fine :)
14:29 audreyt if a method is not found in $foo, the runtime dies.
14:29 audreyt but $foo.?method prevents the dying
14:29 Juerd theorbtwo: It just means the entire thing left of it is commited, can't change meaning anymore. Focus on the future, not the past.
14:29 audreyt and $foo.:method makes explicit that if you can't find the method, please die
14:29 audreyt which isn't different from $foo.method
14:29 Juerd theorbtwo: I don't read "." as die. ":" could read as die, but "." not...
14:29 theorbtwo Yes.  I was reading . as call, and : as die.
14:29 audreyt what Juerd describes is "commit" at the parsing level
14:29 audreyt which ':' happily puns as well there.
14:29 Juerd Maybe "." is the short form of ".:", and ".:" is the real method call op ;)
14:30 audreyt heh.
14:30 audreyt so, I just implemented this
14:30 theorbtwo I'm happy with that, but I'd still prefer .perl shorten it.
14:30 theorbtwo ;)
14:30 Juerd Let's try:
14:30 Juerd $xyzzy.foo()
14:31 Juerd $fooz.:foo()
14:31 Juerd $foo. :foo()
14:31 Juerd wfm
14:31 theorbtwo WFM too.
14:31 Juerd Though there will be people who prefer adding : to the xyzzy too
14:31 Juerd $xyzzy.:foo()
14:31 Juerd $fooz. :foo()
14:31 Juerd $foo.   :foo()
14:31 Juerd fuck
14:31 Juerd $xyzzy.:foo()
14:31 Juerd $foo.   :foo()
14:31 Juerd argh!
14:32 Juerd irssi, stop being helpful please
14:32 Juerd Once more
14:32 Juerd $xyzzy.:foo()
14:32 Juerd $fooz. :foo()
14:32 Juerd $foo.  :foo()
14:32 Juerd There :)
14:32 theorbtwo Can you put space in .?, .+, and .* as well?
14:32 Juerd At least it doesn't involve adding whitespace to the $xzzy call.
14:32 Juerd theorbtwo: I'd think so.
14:32 Juerd Can't think of ambiguities
14:33 Juerd Though that'd create a pair of opposites: ? versus :
14:33 Juerd Where in another part of the language, that pair is ? versus !
14:33 Aankhen`` joined perl6
14:33 Juerd OTOH, there it is postfix.
14:34 theorbtwo ? boolify vs ! not, you mean?
14:34 Juerd Oh, that too, and that is prefix. Hm
14:34 Juerd theorbtwo: I meant ($foo!, $bar?)
14:34 Juerd But indeed, that again stems from ? and !
14:34 Juerd $xyzzy.foo()
14:34 Juerd $fooz.!foo()
14:34 Juerd $foo.  !foo()
14:35 Juerd why?
14:35 Juerd why!
14:35 Juerd $xyzzy.foo()
14:35 Juerd $fooz.!foo()
14:35 Juerd $foo. !foo()
14:35 audreyt too ambiguous.
14:35 Juerd There is no postfix ! in regexes though.
14:35 audreyt $foo!foo is private method call.
14:35 theorbtwo That must have gotten added when I wasn't paying attention...  What is ($foo!, $bar?)
14:35 Juerd audreyt: We still have that? Darn :)
14:35 audreyt theorbtwo: "is required" and "is optional"
14:35 Juerd theorbtwo: The replacement for ($foo, ?$bar)
14:36 Juerd theorbtwo: positionals default to required, named default to optional.
14:36 aufrank audreyt: is that only in Sigs?
14:36 theorbtwo Oh, in a signature.
14:36 audreyt aufrank: yes.
14:36 Juerd But you can use ? and ! for both if you want.
14:36 aufrank if $foo.:bar is regex inspired, do $foo.+bar or $foo.*bar mean anything?
14:37 Juerd aufrank: They already mean something.
14:37 Juerd aufrank: Not that they're incredibly useful, though
14:37 * aufrank needs to do another full read through of the syns, apparently
14:37 Juerd Larry thinks they may sprout new idioms
14:41 theorbtwo .: means "run exactly one", .? means "run if it exists", .* means "run as many as exist", and .+ means "run as many as exist, but at least one".
14:41 KingDillyDilly audreyt: Just to complete my thoughts on this...it's not all that clear that the examples (PAR) must work at the command prompt and won't work in a script without exec or something. I don't think Windows users have a "%" prompt at the command line, and even if they did, personally, I'd make the docs idiot proof. Not a request...just a comment about docs in general.
14:42 theorbtwo Do the multiple-running ones have well-defined order and return value?
14:42 Juerd I can see a use for .* and .+ for plugins, perhaps
14:42 audreyt KingDillyDilly: if you'd give me your email, I'll send you a commit bit, and you can go in and fix the docs.
14:43 svnbot6 r10129 | audreyt++ | * Implement parsing of "extended long dot":
14:43 svnbot6 r10129 | audreyt++ |     $foo.   +method; # same as $foo.+method
14:43 audreyt KingDillyDilly: otherwise, patches welcome on [email@hidden.address]
14:43 svnbot6 r10129 | audreyt++ |     $foo.   *method; # same as $foo.*method
14:43 svnbot6 r10129 | audreyt++ |     $foo.   ?method; # same as $foo.?method
14:43 svnbot6 r10129 | audreyt++ |     $foo.   :method; # same as $foo.:method -- same as $foo.method
14:43 svnbot6 r10129 | audreyt++ |   (currently the above three is not specially handled yet)
14:43 svnbot6 r10129 | audreyt++ | * The old ".   ." form is still kept before a ruling is made;
14:43 svnbot6 r10129 | audreyt++ |   this is just for experimenting with the "feeling" of the syntax.
14:43 Juerd $foo does PluginA does PluginB does PluginC;
14:43 Juerd $foo.*hook_bar()
14:44 audreyt Juerd: so, can I ask your help in writing a p6l post? :)
14:44 Juerd I think you just did :)
14:44 audreyt I meta-asked :)
14:44 Juerd Cool
14:45 Juerd my @m_EN = qw(January .. December);
14:45 Juerd hmm
14:45 Juerd (not mine)
14:46 audreyt Juerd++ # p6l post
14:46 theorbtwo It would seem that $a..$b should call $a+1 until it gets $b out of it.
14:46 audreyt (in advance)
14:46 Juerd audreyt: That's unfair, now you force me to help you :D
14:46 audreyt if you rollback, I can always -- it back :)
14:47 audreyt so it's a "let"
14:47 Juerd theorbtwo: Hopefully not, as that would mean an infinite loop for 3..4.5
14:47 Juerd audreyt: But I used a committing colon in the smiley
14:47 Juerd audreyt: How can I help you?
14:47 theorbtwo Well, unless there already is an infix .. defined on Num and Num, which I should hope there would be.
14:48 theorbtwo Or just change that to "until it gets a >= $b"
14:48 Juerd theorbtwo: That ignores .. for strings
14:49 Juerd theorbtwo: And .. for other nice things that can range, like date objects
14:49 theorbtwo They can define their own infix:<..>
14:50 audreyt Juerd: write to p6l and explain the ".." conflict, and propose ".:" as a solution, and ". :" as an extension, and ". +" as an generalization, and coexistence/removal of ". ." as a consideration
14:50 theorbtwo brb
14:50 Juerd audreyt: Will do; mind if I quote your line? :)
14:50 audreyt please do :)
14:51 * audreyt feels multisyllabic
14:52 audreyt miyagawa: [OT] I'll go ahead and release JSON::Syck, with alexmv's patch that fixes SingleQuote with trailing spaces.
14:56 haggai_e joined perl6
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15:02 nothingmuch audreyt: stevan said you wanted to talk about moose stuff?
15:09 audreyt nothingmuch: sorry, a sec
15:10 manbou joined perl6
15:15 Juerd audreyt: Sent
15:16 Juerd audreyt: What's wrong with short words? I like short words. Why would you want more parts in a word? :)
15:16 Juerd ("parts" means "syllables". Too bad it has no single-syllable synonym ;))
15:17 * KingDillyDilly wishes "atoms" were called "parts"
15:18 KingDillyDilly in Perlspeak
15:18 audreyt in S02? it's followed by "Molecules"
15:18 audreyt (granted, maybe a bit too cute.)
15:19 * KingDillyDilly forever tries to simplify things
15:19 cognominal yea, right, so we can speak of private parts...
15:19 nothingmuch i prefer atoms etc
15:19 nothingmuch it implies that it doesn't get smaller
15:19 audreyt I do feel "Molecules" in S02 is a bit inaccessible :)
15:19 Juerd KingDillyDilly: Making things simpler is good.
15:19 merlyn quarks? :)
15:20 nothingmuch in that these are the truely core, lowest level abstractions for Perl 6
15:20 Juerd (simplifying => making simpler)
15:20 cognominal atom, molecule mark a cleart progression. part does not mean anything.
15:20 KingDillyDilly Yeah. I just get antsy when I hear yet another new term
15:20 nothingmuch Mollecules, otoh, is a bit of a pun
15:20 Juerd Esperanto has -er- for parts
15:20 audreyt "Lexical Conventions" and "Whitespace and Comments"
15:20 haggai_e left perl6
15:20 audreyt is perhaps better headings for the respective S02 secions
15:21 mako132_ joined perl6
15:21 Juerd pano => bread
15:21 audreyt (the first two)
15:21 Juerd panero => bread crumb
15:21 nothingmuch i thought they implied more, but that's perhaps just my memory inventing meta-meaning for Atoms, Mollecules =)
15:21 audreyt nothingmuch: it does that to us, but in S02's case, they didn't discuss more :)
15:21 nothingmuch in which case perhaps they were counter productive
15:21 Juerd It doesn't do molekulo, molekulero, though. It has atomo :)
15:22 nothingmuch and should be "lexical conventions" and "whitespace and comments" =)
15:22 nothingmuch audreyt++
15:22 nothingmuch KingDillyDilly++
15:23 simonp joined perl6
15:23 * audreyt commits to S02 and credits "Wassercrats"
15:24 * KingDillyDilly Looks foward to bragging...if only he knew what S02 was
15:24 audreyt lol :)
15:25 audreyt it's http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/syn/S02.html
15:28 audreyt merlyn: amen to "environmental"
15:29 audreyt maybe "env variables" or even "enveloped variables" is better
15:30 KingDillyDilly I'm still not sure what I did, but don't tell me. It's funnier this way.
15:30 audreyt fun is good :)
15:32 weinig|sleep is now known as weinig|away
15:33 audreyt Juerd++ # nice post
15:33 audreyt though I was confused for a bit about the POD part
15:33 theorbtwo Indeed.
15:33 audreyt until I figured out you were talking about
15:33 audreyt $foo.#(
15:33 audreyt =head1 NAME
15:33 audreyt ...
15:33 audreyt ):method(...);
15:34 audreyt which is, well, er, okay.
15:34 Juerd audreyt: It's not something people should ever do :)
15:35 theorbtwo Hm, I wonder if #(...) is going to get confusing when I want to start a comment with a parenthetical phrase.  Probably not, since I generally write #<ws> anyway, and rarely start things with parentheticals.
15:35 audreyt theorbtwo: and column-1 # is special
15:35 * Juerd knows lots of people who write # without whitespace
15:35 Juerd They will hate this.
15:35 theorbtwo Oh, I forgot that, audreyt.  That's good.
15:35 Juerd I write "  # ", normally
15:35 Juerd Where in block formatted code, I try to first space as far as the block goes
15:35 audreyt yeah. I wonder if line-started-with-whitespace-then-comment
15:36 audreyt is similarly special.
15:36 Juerd aoeuaoeu;
15:36 audreyt that will allow
15:36 audreyt if moose.elk {
15:36 Juerd aoeuao;    # aoeu
15:36 audreyt    #line 15
15:36 audreyt    blah
15:36 audreyt }
15:36 audreyt which reads maybe better. not sure.
15:36 Juerd audreyt: I'd like a character that introduces special things
15:36 Juerd Instead of a word
15:37 Juerd So that people can always write #\w without any risk
15:37 audreyt you mean like
15:37 audreyt =!line 15
15:37 audreyt etc
15:37 Juerd #!line would be fine too
15:37 audreyt ok... that plays well with #!/usr/local/bin/perl
15:37 Juerd It could even generalize the shebang ;)
15:37 audreyt syck minds, etc.
15:37 audreyt I mean, sick minds.
15:38 Juerd I'm not very syck minded because I don't like yaml much.
15:38 simonp is now known as simonp_
15:38 Juerd (I like it a lot, just not the whitespace sensitivity that has caused me trouble)
15:38 audreyt you must be sjck minded then
15:38 audreyt the json subset of yaml does not have whitespace problems
15:38 Juerd No language should ever treat whitespace following or preceding \n specially.
15:39 audreyt POD does.
15:39 audreyt as does many wikis.
15:39 Juerd I don't like that either, in theory.
15:39 audreyt oh. well. :)
15:39 Juerd I would like to indent my paragraphs, under =heads
15:39 Juerd =head1 foo
15:39 Juerd
15:39 Juerd    Some text here, that isn't code.
15:39 Juerd
15:40 Juerd =cut
15:40 audreyt I see your point.
15:40 audreyt it's signed and floating. :)
15:40 Juerd I'm used to indent code so much now, I would probably need help to get off it.
15:40 * Juerd even indents things that aren't flowed paragraphs in e-mail.
15:41 Juerd Someone asked my why I always indent postal addresses in mail :)
15:41 audreyt heh :)
15:41 simonp_ left perl6
15:41 Juerd And was amazed at the answer
15:42 Juerd "Unauthorized copying, reproduction, hiring, lending, public performance and broadcasting prohibited."
15:43 Juerd What artist would ever want this be done to their work?
15:43 * audreyt goes adding Pugs-Hs items under Google-SoC ideas page
15:43 Juerd Hs?
15:43 audreyt <- probably getting mentorship in both TPF and Hs.org
15:43 audreyt Haskell
15:44 audreyt Pugs-P5 (and -P6) items would be more applicable to the TPF side, I think
15:45 Juerd Are people who go implement Perl 6 using Haskell bi-mentored? ;)
15:46 audreyt maybe ;)
15:55 * aufrank is gonna try :)
16:00 aufrank Juerd++ # good post!
16:02 clkao what are long dots anyway? what's the different between that and normal $foo.bar()?
16:04 theorbtwo clkao: A long dot takes up more space.
16:05 audreyt clkao: in perl5 you can write
16:05 clkao why do we need them? do we hate ourselves?
16:05 audreyt $x               {foo}
16:05 audreyt $obj->     method
16:05 audreyt $obj           ->method
16:05 clkao aaah
16:05 audreyt it's for alignment
16:05 audreyt and multilines
16:05 audreyt $obj->foo(..............)
16:05 audreyt   ->bar(...)
16:05 audreyt etc
16:06 theorbtwo Does everybody get a bunch of "Testing with sbc30k" messages when they post to p6l, or is it just me?
16:07 theorbtwo Oh, blast.  Juerd just reported that to the list.
16:10 KingDillyDilly Didn't I hear that "long quotes" are something entirely different? Confusing.
16:11 Juerd Perl 5 even allowns $object -> method, which because of the "visual weight" of -> is used by several people I know.
16:11 Juerd KingDillyDilly: There are no long quotes.
16:11 audreyt KingDillyDilly: I don't think there is a "long quotes", unless you mean << ... >>
16:12 KingDillyDilly I thought I heard they were a foriegn language thing.
16:12 audreyt which is known as "Texas quotes"
16:12 audreyt Juerd: I get that too
16:12 audreyt the sbc thing
16:15 Juerd I still think <> should also be considered Texan.
16:15 Juerd As the quote forms aren't <>, but ‹›
16:16 Juerd KingDillyDilly: Texan «» is <<>>, Texan ¥ is Y
16:17 Juerd KingDillyDilly: It is because the people in Texas are unlikely to accept anything other than US-ASCII :)
16:17 Juerd They're too consevative and afraid of foreign influence ;)
16:17 * KingDillyDilly looks up what he's think of in the logs
16:25 KingDillyDilly You don't have to wait for me, you know. Closest I found so far is "wide yen."
16:25 mako132_ joined perl6
16:27 KingDillyDilly Ha...I was thinking of "full-width quotes" as mentioned http://colabti.de/irclogger/irclog​ger_log/perl6?date=2006-04-26,Wed
16:34 audreyt ah ok :)
16:34 audreyt "full width quotes" and "long dots" are probably distinct enough
16:34 KingDillyDilly Yeah
16:43 larsen joined perl6
16:44 * KingDillyDilly fixes bookshelf
16:44 KingDillyDilly left perl6
16:45 xerox joined perl6
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17:19 xerox Hi.
17:19 xerox Is there anything like a `learn to play (pugs) Perl 6 in small steps today' document somewhere?
17:22 audreyt hi.
17:23 audreyt http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/docs/
17:23 audreyt in particular, http://svn.openfoundry.org/​pugs/docs/articles/tpr.pod
17:24 audreyt also, http://svn.openfoundry.org​/pugs/docs/Perl6/Overview/
17:24 audreyt the spec is at http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/synopsis.html
17:24 audreyt also see examples/ and t/ for sample p6 code.
17:26 audreyt xerox: a commit bit is on your way.
17:26 audreyt paolo at nemail it?
17:27 xerox That's my email yes
17:27 audreyt cool. currently the only write-interface is "svn ci", sadly
17:27 xerox I don't exactly know svn, but so noted.
17:27 audreyt but if you see anything needs improvement, just change the files, and type "svn ci", and that'd be all.
17:28 xerox Gotcha.
17:28 audreyt currently we are having some cabal troubles as old cabal does not allow multiple hs-libraries-dir
17:28 clkao audreyt: so where were we on data::bind?
17:29 audreyt and as such you can see that src/Data/ByteString is symlinked
17:29 audreyt I wonder how to cleanly solve this problem without requiring everyone upgrading to new cabal.
17:29 audreyt clkao: I think we were at the point where hooking Perl6::Bindings and port it to use Filter::Simnple::Compiled
17:29 xerox Hmmmm.
17:29 audreyt or something like that, would make sense.
17:30 clkao but it's using a hand crafted grammar parser.. can we reuse something under misc/Comon?
17:30 xerox audreyt: thank you for the invitation.
17:30 audreyt xerox: no prob :) if you feel like testing your svn client, add yourself to AUTHORS
17:30 audreyt and "svn ci AUTHORS"
17:30 xerox I am there hehe.
17:30 * clkao went to get some beer and got ready for hacking
17:30 xerox I did something *time* ago :-)
17:31 audreyt indeed you are :)
17:31 audreyt yes :)
17:31 audreyt clkao: the closest is the P::RC grammar in Perl6::Subs
17:32 audreyt we don't yet have signature grammar in p6 rules syntax
17:32 audreyt writing that would be a Very Good First Step (tm)
17:32 clkao ok, that requires me learning p6 rules
17:32 audreyt it's yaks all the way down.
17:32 clkao but that's a healthy yak
17:32 xerox I really want to learn something new.  Apart from pen-spinning (yay I learnt a trick today!)
17:33 clkao audreyt: is the rule spec in repo uptodate?
17:33 audreyt clkao: see the tests in P::G::R
17:33 audreyt and Pugs-Grammar-MiniPerl6/lib/Pu​gs/Grammar/MiniPerl6.grammar
17:33 audreyt rule spec? docs/Perl6/Spec/Rules?
17:33 clkao *nod*
17:33 audreyt sure is, it's refetched every time you type "perl Makefile.PL" :)
17:33 audreyt (as we didn't figure out single-file merges)
17:33 clkao ya, i mean the source itself
17:33 audreyt yes it is.
17:34 audreyt you can also try it out using either P::C::Rules or Pugs itself (which bridges to PGE)
17:34 audreyt (I verified it still works with today's turnk parrot)
17:35 audreyt xerox: well, make sure that pugs builds in your environment is a good first step...
17:36 xerox Right.
17:36 xerox Makefile.PL doesn't seem to like ghc made in-place.
17:36 audreyt nopaste the error? (assuming you have ENV GHC set)
17:36 audreyt # nopaste = http://sial.org/pbot/perl6
17:37 xerox It just can't find it.
17:37 audreyt    export GHC=${HOME}/bin/ghc (bash)
17:37 audreyt    setenv GHC ${HOME}/bin/ghc (csh)
17:39 pasteling "xerox" at 151.37.170.44 pasted "Can't find GHC." (9 lines, 381B) at http://sial.org/pbot/16967
17:41 audreyt hmm
17:42 clkao audreyt: p::g::r? you mean p::c::r?
17:42 audreyt clkao: yes
17:43 audreyt xerox: what's output of ghc --version?
17:43 xerox $ ghc --version
17:43 xerox , version 6.5
17:43 audreyt wow
17:43 xerox haha
17:43 audreyt that's a strange version string.
17:43 xerox I'm using something very unstable.
17:43 audreyt yeah, we parse version string
17:43 xerox ghc-6.5 on i386-darwin-apple, i.e. Mac Intel.
17:44 audreyt oooh. I want that
17:44 audreyt anyway
17:44 xerox (Very pre-alpha build.)
17:44 audreyt type "svn up"
17:44 audreyt and try again
17:44 audreyt it'd be nice to know that MacIntelGHC can build Pugs.
17:44 xerox Yeah.
17:44 svnbot6 r10130 | audreyt++ | * xerox reported a GHC 6.5 that doesn't know its own name.
17:44 svnbot6 r10130 | audreyt++ |   We cope.
17:44 xerox hahaha.
17:45 elmex joined perl6
17:45 xerox I'd better make install it, I think.
17:45 audreyt dunno if it'd matter.
17:45 audreyt but sure :)
17:45 audreyt xerox: btw, I submitted Pugs embedding, datatypes, and debugger/profiler as tasks
17:45 pasteling "xerox" at 151.37.170.44 pasted "Buildin'" (55 lines, 2.3K) at http://sial.org/pbot/16968
17:45 audreyt the other 10 will need some thinking to refactor into month-sized chunks
17:46 xerox audreyt: great!!
17:46 audreyt "svn up" and try again.
17:46 pmurias joined perl6
17:46 pmurias hi
17:46 audreyt pmurias: hi
17:46 svnbot6 r10131 | audreyt++ | * not everyone has LWP::Simple...
17:47 * xerox blesses audreyt
17:47 * audreyt becomes an boxed object
17:47 xerox Gulp.
17:47 audreyt # obscure perl-OO reference
17:48 xerox perl Makefil.PL finally worked.
17:48 audreyt yay.
17:48 audreyt you are on mac intel
17:48 audreyt ergo, you have a fast cpu
17:48 audreyt so, "make" :)
17:48 xerox Lets time make it.
17:48 audreyt (instead of "make unoptimized")
17:48 xerox Yeah.
17:48 xerox I hope it will not file on -packages
17:48 audreyt we rely on STM...
17:49 xerox I probably need to pass -L/custom/ghc/
17:49 xerox But it's a linker thingie, it will show at last.
17:49 audreyt yup
17:49 audreyt and we are using whatever cabal your 6.5 ships
17:49 xerox The numbering of the compiled modules is something added by... ?
17:49 audreyt GHC 6.5
17:49 xerox Oooooh.
17:49 xerox Haskell is great.
17:49 audreyt good stuff :)
17:50 xerox Data.FunctorM is deprected
17:50 xerox *deprecated
17:50 xerox Yay :-)
17:50 xerox *bang* Duplicate instance declarations.
17:50 audreyt ooh, that's new.
17:50 audreyt nopaste again?
17:50 xerox Sure.
17:51 audreyt (it builds fine on 6.4.[12])
17:51 xerox http://sial.org/pbot/16969
17:51 audreyt aha
17:51 audreyt GHC 6.5's tree is typeable now
17:51 audreyt whilst 6.4's is not.
17:52 audreyt this is line 1914 src/Pugs/AST/Internals.hs
17:52 xerox You're pretty damn fast.
17:52 audreyt can you add a ghc_version guard there?
17:52 audreyt #if GHC_VERSION etc
17:52 xerox Yep
17:53 * audreyt waits for xerox's first commit :D
17:54 xerox <= 6.5 is okay as 'etc' ?
17:54 audreyt sure
17:55 audreyt not sure how pervasive thetypeableness went
17:55 audreyt try+error should reveal them
17:55 xerox Hmmmm tried 'make' to make sure it fixed it
17:55 audreyt cool
17:55 svnbot6 r10132 | pmurias++ | Inline-Parrot was copy'ed into Common a week+ ago
17:55 xerox http://sial.org/pbot/16970
17:56 * audreyt lol's on the line above
17:56 xerox Strange outcome.
17:56 audreyt </DrIFT> Do NOT delete! These instances are your friends! -}
17:56 xerox Maybe I need a make clean before?
17:56 xerox Ah no.
17:57 xerox It's me now knowing about CPP.
17:57 xerox s/now/not/
17:57 audreyt and the test is on __GLASGOW_HASKELL__
17:58 audreyt <= 605
17:58 xerox Gotcha.
17:58 audreyt I mean, <= 604
18:00 xerox Works. /me ^Z the build to svn ci
18:01 audreyt woot
18:01 audreyt xerox++
18:02 audreyt xerox: is it within your priv to add the "Pugs" topic on the SoC wiki?
18:03 xerox Seems worked :-)
18:03 svnbot6 r10133 | Paolo++ | Since GHC 6.5 Tree is typeable, added preprocessor directive to check <= 604.
18:03 audreyt yay
18:03 xerox I've to ask Isaac, consider it done.
18:03 xerox Yeah!
18:03 xerox brb
18:03 audreyt the fix didn't break 6.4.2
18:03 audreyt xerox++
18:05 audreyt it's 2am here, so I'll 1)journal and 2)sleep soon
18:05 audreyt see you in ~10 hours :)
18:05 xerox Yeah, see ya later!
18:05 xerox Thanks much Audrey.
18:05 audreyt ditto :)
18:18 xerox Argh.
18:19 audreyt mm?
18:19 pasteling "xerox" at 151.37.170.44 pasted "Build error." (11 lines, 881B) at http://sial.org/pbot/16972
18:21 audreyt svn up and try again
18:21 svnbot6 r10134 | audreyt++ | * fix prelude parsefial.
18:21 svnbot6 r10133 | Paolo++ | Since GHC 6.5 Tree is typeable, added preprocessor directive to check <= 604.
18:21 Ymmv joined perl6
18:23 xerox I remember when you first started pugs, with TaPL...
18:23 xerox Now it's such a mass of code :-)
18:23 audreyt or a "mess of code" :)
18:23 audreyt but yeah :)
18:23 xerox Which successfully build on MacIntels :-)
18:23 audreyt oooooh!
18:23 audreyt run some sanity tests?
18:23 xerox Sure.
18:24 xerox make test?
18:24 audreyt ./pugs t/01-sanity/01-tap.t
18:24 xerox Oh.
18:24 audreyt but yeah, a "make smoke upload-smoke"
18:24 audreyt can be fun
18:24 pasteling "xerox" at 151.37.170.44 pasted "Sanity cheques." (14 lines, 210B) at http://sial.org/pbot/16973
18:24 audreyt yay, sane.
18:24 xerox ^_^
18:24 audreyt xerox++
18:25 xerox Very pleased.
18:25 audreyt so, where can I get this mysterious MacIntelGHC?
18:25 xerox heh!
18:25 xerox Wolfgang mailed an url, let me find it.
18:25 audreyt I've been debating whether to just give in and buy a MacBookPro17".
18:25 xerox I'd advice you to wait a second revision at least
18:25 audreyt otoh, they are not exactly cheap.
18:25 xerox Everybody is having problems with the first one
18:25 audreyt yeah. so maybe wait for MacBookReal15"
18:26 FurnaceBoy that would be G4 ;-)
18:26 * FurnaceBoy ducks
18:26 audreyt nah, it'd be a CureDoo
18:26 audreyt or something like that
18:26 xerox I hope I'll have something like a bunch of money to get some 12" lappie too.
18:26 FurnaceBoy they already have a Duo out
18:26 * FurnaceBoy loves his PB G4 17
18:27 xerox I don't know if it's sane, but here it is: http://www.uni-graz.at/imawww/haskell/gh​c-6.5.20060409-i386-apple-darwin.tar.bz2
18:27 audreyt danke sehr.
18:27 xerox Yay to big monitors.  iMac 20" here, heh.
18:28 FurnaceBoy yes, the iMac 20" is nice
18:28 xerox Do you have ghc?
18:28 FurnaceBoy I only have PPC Macs. but on.
18:28 FurnaceBoy +no
18:28 xerox Oh, kay.
18:30 xerox Prelude> primes !! 100000
18:30 xerox 599997
18:30 xerox (24.10 secs, 1690143048 bytes)
18:31 xerox It's: let primes = 2 : 3 : [ n | n <- [5,7..], any ((==0) . (n `mod`)) (takeWhile (\p -> p*p <= n) primes)]
18:34 xerox pugs> [1..10] >>+<< [1..10]
18:34 xerox (2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20)
18:34 * xerox remembers! :-)
18:40 cognominal joined perl6
18:42 ruz joined perl6
18:46 ruz ?eval 1.say
18:46 evalbot_10082 OUTPUT[1 ] bool::true
18:49 ruz fails on the 10127
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19:03 xerox Do statements have to be ended by some special character?
19:03 audreyt ruz: fixed
19:03 audreyt xerox: normally, semicolon.
19:03 * audreyt remembers that she should be sleeping
19:03 xerox Like 1.say?
19:04 audreyt huh?
19:04 svnbot6 r10135 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Parser: Fix "1.say".  ruz++ for reporting that
19:04 svnbot6 r10135 | audreyt++ |   numbers were considered as whitespace.
19:04 xerox pugs> 1.say
19:04 audreyt if you are in the pugs shell, and you see
19:04 xerox ....>
19:04 audreyt ...>
19:04 audreyt then it means a parsefail
19:04 xerox Ah.
19:04 audreyt and you can type ^D
19:04 audreyt ctrl-d
19:05 xerox ....> pugs: <stdin>: hGetLine: end of file -- ^D makes it exit.
19:05 audreyt wow. you didn't have readline
19:05 audreyt in any case
19:05 obra audreyt: weren't you going to bed hours ago?
19:05 audreyt "svn up ; make"
19:05 audreyt will fix it
19:05 xerox Ah, okay.
19:05 audreyt and "1.say" can work again.
19:05 audreyt obra: yeah.
19:05 audreyt good night :) &
19:05 obra night
19:05 xerox Night-o!
19:07 audreyt but, but
19:07 audreyt I fixed the ....>
19:07 audreyt so it should now only do line-continuation when it can sensibly be completed
19:07 audreyt otherwise it parsefails
19:08 audreyt (the intention of ....> is so you can enter a multiline subroutine etc)
19:09 audreyt sleep for real &
19:10 svnbot6 r10136 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.hs: In the interactive shell, only display the
19:10 svnbot6 r10136 | audreyt++ |   line-continuing "....>" prompt when we have an
19:10 svnbot6 r10136 | audreyt++ |   unexpected eof (i.e. when typing something more can
19:10 svnbot6 r10136 | audreyt++ |   make it parseok again).  Otherwise we throw parsefail.
19:12 xerox How does one get something readable out of a .pod ?
19:13 ruz perldoc xxxx.pod
19:13 xerox Great.
19:24 dvtoo is now known as dvorak
19:24 dvorak is now known as dvtoo
19:28 dvtoo is now known as dvorak
19:29 dvorak is now known as dvtoo
19:31 svnbot6 r10137 | audreyt++ | * resurrect JavaScript compilation by adding back the VCode instance.
19:33 dvtoo joined perl6
19:33 svnbot6 r10138 | audreyt++ | * PIL2JS: Work around a subtle parser bug:
19:33 svnbot6 r10138 | audreyt++ |     &say.({},1)         # fine
19:33 svnbot6 r10138 | audreyt++ |     &say.({},1).({},1)  # parsefail
19:33 svnbot6 r10138 | audreyt++ |   will investigate tomorrow...
19:33 obra "sleep"
19:33 clkao does pil2js work again?
19:41 xerox I have got a work around for the hs-libraries-dir problem
19:41 xerox But I don't know Perl to fix Makefile.PL
19:44 jserv-- joined perl6
19:44 audreyt just describe the fix here and someone will pick up it and hack into Makefile.PL :)
19:46 audreyt &
19:46 svnbot6 r10139 | audreyt++ | * More workaround to make JS build pass; however, -BJS still
19:46 svnbot6 r10139 | audreyt++ |   appears broken, warning about:
19:46 svnbot6 r10139 | audreyt++ |     uncaught exception: Error: 1 more parameters passed to sub <anonymous in &JS::Root::join> than expected (1)! at <unknown>
19:46 svnbot6 r10139 | audreyt++ |   More investigation needed.
19:47 xerox haha
19:47 xerox You never sleep!
19:47 xerox The fix is "simple", instead of using hs-libraries-dir, use ghc-options with "-idir1 -idir2 ...".
19:48 xerox Don't pretend you're sleeping, nobody believes you now
19:48 xerox <grin>
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20:05 dvtoo is now known as dvorak
20:07 dvorak joined perl6
20:07 svnbot6 r10140 | audreyt++ | * It turns out Cabal allows for comma-separated values
20:07 svnbot6 r10140 | audreyt++ |   in hs-source-dir, so the symlink trick is no longer needed...
20:09 xerox Somebody put some sleeping pill in audreyt's drink
20:09 nnunley Sleep committing?
20:10 xerox Somehow.
20:16 borkened joined perl6
20:16 svnbot6 r10141 | audreyt++ | * Er, that fix wasn't good at all for GHC 6.4.1.  Applied
20:16 svnbot6 r10141 | audreyt++ |   xerox++'s suggestion of hand-adding -ithird-party/fps/
20:16 svnbot6 r10141 | audreyt++ |   to Pugs.cabal.in instead...
20:16 xerox ^__^
20:18 aufrank joined perl6
20:26 justatheory joined perl6
20:26 aufrank joined perl6
20:26 aufrank hey all
20:29 pasteling "aufrank" at 128.151.80.181 pasted "build error with r10140" (24 lines, 2.3K) at http://sial.org/pbot/16977
20:29 aufrank same thing happens with regular make (as opposed to make unoptimized)
20:37 svnbot6 r10142 | pmurias++ | rm _Inline on make clean
20:37 svnbot6 r10142 | pmurias++ | overloading of 0+
20:48 pmurias got to pack my computer now, so that's all for today :) (came back from germany tommorow)
20:49 pmurias s/tommorow/today
20:50 pmurias too much perlguts(1)
20:52 pmurias &
20:52 pmurias good night
20:56 FurnaceBoy is now known as FB|afk
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22:12 rootcho joined perl6
22:12 rootcho hi
22:12 rootcho i see declarations like this :
22:13 rootcho my $domain = ./:host($request, $uri);
22:13 rootcho what "./:....." thing mean
22:13 rootcho does ./ imply some sort of file path
22:13 Juerd That was self.
22:13 Juerd ./foo is now $.foo
22:14 Juerd And :host is now !host
22:14 rootcho aaa i see
22:14 Juerd So ./:foo would now be $!foo, if I recall correctly
22:14 rootcho hmm..cute ;)
22:14 Juerd afk
22:15 rootcho when i use hash
22:16 rootcho why should i use %hash<key> instead %hash{key}
22:16 rootcho why is one prefable than the other
22:17 aufrank rootcho: %hash{key} does not automatically stringify key
22:17 aufrank it used to in p5, but no longer does in p6
22:17 aufrank use the %hash<key> form to get single quotes
22:18 rootcho i see, thanx
22:18 aufrank use the %hash<<key>> form to get interpolating quotes
22:18 rootcho aha
22:18 aufrank or use %hash{'key'} to was two keystroke ;)
22:18 aufrank s/was/waste/
22:18 aufrank afk
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23:24 Eroick joined perl6
23:24 Eroick Hi! I check out the perl6 development every so often. How is it comming?
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23:55 meppl gute nacht

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