Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-05-04

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 mugwump Moose is alive and well, it even has roles support
00:00 mugwump I'm developing a model for standard perl collections with it
00:00 mugwump Actually this needs generics/higher order types/parametric types to work *really* well
00:01 mugwump Those I plan to hack in via obscure package names and UNIVERSAL::isa hacks
00:01 Quell joined perl6
00:01 mugwump (so that, for instance, HASH->isa("Coll of (Str, Any) where Unique(0)")
00:03 mugwump It makes sense to defer exact design decisions on what .meta looks like at least until it is properly metacircular, ie self-defining.  Possibly even further than that.
00:03 Toaster (sorry, got distracted by toast)
00:03 Toaster right - is there an intention to somehow wrap Moose back into p6 once it's done?
00:04 Toaster or is it another prototyping-perl6-concepts-in-perl5 doofer?
00:04 mugwump With good availability of meta-objects, language transformation gets even easier.
00:05 mugwump For instance, you could easily take Class::MOP objects (the model behind Moose) and generate Perl 6 metamodel objects with them
00:05 mugwump then it's just a matter of converting your code fragments, if you care
00:05 Toaster right
00:06 Toaster sounds like i need to go read one of those vast books or thesises on metaobject models :)
00:06 * Toaster heads librarywards
00:07 mugwump it's certainly a confusing area to research, just ask stevan_ :)
00:07 mugwump but the concept is quite simple.  an object that describes the class.  Change the Class object and (if possible) you mutate the class
00:08 mugwump the confusion arises in questions such as, "what does $object.meta.meta return?".  There's also a chicken and egg problem.
00:09 mugwump but that's ok, I used to live with chickens.  The answer is there are always eggs and chickens.
00:20 * FurnaceBoy_ marvels
00:23 * TimToady meta cops out
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01:14 stevan__ is now known as stevan
01:15 stevan Toaster: I suggest "The Art of the Meta Object Protocol" as a good place to start
01:15 stevan mugwump: $object.meta returns an instance of Class which describes $object, and $object.meta.meta also returns an instance of Class, but this one describes the class Class
01:15 stevan for instance with Moose, ... Moose::Object->meta->meta->isa('Class::MOP::Class')
01:16 stevan and ... Moose::Object->meta->meta->name eq 'Class::MOP::Class'
01:18 mugwump This knot tying is not necessarily forced, though - on a particular implementation you might hit the bottom
01:18 stevan mugwump: yes
01:18 stevan knot tying is just one way to do it
01:18 stevan either that or you just decide how deep the turtles go,. and stop there
01:18 stevan knot tying tends to not work as well in more static languages
01:22 stevan but more dynamic languages (Perl, Haskell, etc) tend to handle it just fune
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02:09 clkao 4/win 22
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02:39 KingDillyDilly PerlJam wrote "Soon I will echo Merlyn's lament that Perl 6 may be too bizarre to explain." I searched the #perl6 logs a bit, and I searched the web a bit, and couldn't find such a quote. Any tips on where to look?
02:40 KingDillyDilly (for the cons section of a pros and cons section that I might add to Wikipedia)
02:43 audreyt KingDillyDilly: maybe http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.language/25160
02:46 KingDillyDilly That would require some research on my part since I don't know if those two terms Merlyn's complaining about will both be used in Perl 6.
02:47 azuroth this red black trees in haskell... it's making my brain explode
02:47 KingDillyDilly I remember you praising Merlyn for "environmental" a few days ago. It reminded me of when I searched Google for "environmental variables" because that's the term I learned from Learning Perl (unless it was my Javascript book) and I couldn't find what I wanted...
02:48 KingDillyDilly Much later on I discovered that "environment variable" is the more common term.
02:49 KingDillyDilly I'm with Merlyn on this one.
02:49 azuroth google is too smart; search for -ental and it includes -ent results
02:58 * KingDillyDilly limits himself to two lines in chat since discovering he was truncated in the log
03:01 KingDillyDilly Maybe I'll forget about the bizarre remark
03:03 audreyt azuroth: http://www.cs.kent.ac.uk/people/staff/smk/redblack/rb.html ?
03:10 audreyt I've just submitted the title of my talk in November's YAPC::SouthAmerica 2006
03:10 audreyt "Golfing Perl 6"
03:11 audreyt I have no idea what I'll be talking about, but it sounds better than "Deploying Perl 6" imho :)
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03:15 azuroth audreyt: yeah, the second one
03:17 audreyt Okasaki's book can help
03:18 KingDillyDilly I'd have to check the dictionary to make sure what's meant by "deploying" Perl 6. Releasing the language? Switching to it to program with it?
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03:19 audreyt it means distribute, install, and maintaining Perl 6 programs in a place with programs already written in other languages, specifically Perl 5.
03:19 azuroth 'purely functional data structures'?
03:19 audreyt azuroth: yup.
03:19 azuroth cool. I'll have a look for it
03:20 audreyt KingDillyDilly: it mostly means "what I've learned from putting some perl 6 code in $job"
03:20 TimToady I wonder what I should talk about...
03:20 azuroth talk about me...
03:21 TimToady I'm tired of talking about me...
03:21 KingDillyDilly http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/deploy "to spread out, utilize, or arrange..."
03:21 azuroth which is why there's me instead!
03:21 audreyt KingDillyDilly: yup, that's the meaning
03:22 audreyt or, more specifically
03:22 audreyt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_deployment
03:22 KingDillyDilly Could mean developing the language, or could mean learning Perl 6. If I were a programmer rather than curious about development of the language (which I am) I might not go to your talk if I thought it was about the former.
03:23 audreyt which is why I hope people will read the abstract instead of just the title :D
03:23 audreyt (and there is already merlyn+bdfoy's "Learning Perl 6" in the same conference)
03:25 KingDillyDilly Do you use those artsy photos of yourself in promos, or something more business-like?
03:25 audreyt TimToady: I enjoy very much the natural-language parts in your talk
03:25 audreyt in particular on translation
03:25 KingDillyDilly I enjoy the screen saver pictures.
03:26 audreyt yup, me too
03:26 audreyt KingDillyDilly: I don't have "business-like" photo at all
03:26 FurnaceBoy_ deploying != learning
03:26 KingDillyDilly Ok, then "utilizing"
03:26 FurnaceBoy_ also, "environment variable" is very well established and specific term, cannot be changed (dates back 35 years)
03:27 FurnaceBoy_ but apart from that, "hi."
03:27 KingDillyDilly I agree. It's more common than "environmental variable" and I wish it were the only term.
03:27 FurnaceBoy_ env-al seems to be confusing.
03:28 FurnaceBoy_ but when you said, "I'm with merlyn," I thought you were promoting env'al
03:28 FurnaceBoy_ I'm sure the confusion was accidental
03:28 KingDillyDilly I'm with Merlyn because I agree that "If they both have "env"-ish stuff in the name, let's use the same name for both.  If they are far enough apart that they should be distinct, call them something different."
03:29 FurnaceBoy_ yes
03:30 audreyt considering how (conceptually)it's passed thru the call stack
03:30 audreyt maybe we can call them "envoy variables"
03:30 * FurnaceBoy_ has a case of variable envy
03:30 audreyt FurnaceBoy++
03:31 spinclad 'deploying' is more 'putting into place so it's usable' than 'utilizing' or 'making use of' directly, in my experience
03:31 audreyt envy $me of Gucci;
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03:32 spinclad $audreyt is $Container of Gucci ?  i do envy!
03:32 spinclad a Case of Gucci, even
03:32 audreyt actually no... mostly Dior nowadays.
03:33 audreyt though the :shape of container of envy_me is really pretty.
03:33 FurnaceBoy_ deploy -> "use in anger" ? :)
03:34 audreyt FurnaceBoy_: where did you get that definition? :)
03:34 * FurnaceBoy_ /me
03:35 spinclad deploy -> 'set out for use', in anger or otherwise?
03:35 FurnaceBoy_ pretty much
03:35 FurnaceBoy_ although,
03:35 FurnaceBoy_ people do associate it with "real paying work"
03:36 FurnaceBoy_ if you get my drift.
03:36 FurnaceBoy_ "put in front of customers"
03:36 FurnaceBoy_ battle-ready
03:36 spinclad well, sure, i've deployed lots of stuff and gotten $pay ed
03:36 * FurnaceBoy_ 's metaphors are overheated today
03:37 FurnaceBoy_ I;'m sure context will make the right word obvious :)
03:37 spinclad it does sound a bit like the opposite of 'employ', though
03:38 FurnaceBoy_ actually, it's a synonym in some senses. ;)
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03:39 FurnaceBoy_ there is at least one sense of deploy that means exactly employ
03:39 spinclad 'deploy for employment'
03:39 FurnaceBoy_ for continued employment, deploy Perl6
03:39 FurnaceBoy_ To enjoy your employment, deploy
03:40 audreyt it's all just a ploy...
03:40 * FurnaceBoy_ feels a limerick coming on
03:40 FurnaceBoy_ "...it's not just a toy!"
03:40 FurnaceBoy_ To enlarge your endowment, deploy   (Perl6 spam)
03:41 azuroth sounds a bit like a KOMPRESSOR song to me
03:41 aufrank hello all!
03:41 FurnaceBoy_ well it needs work.
03:41 * FurnaceBoy_ phones session musicians
03:41 aufrank audreyt: how's the AIX gcc porting going?
03:42 FurnaceBoy_ aufrank: ola
03:42 audreyt aufrank: it works
03:42 spinclad .oO{ no, no, gcc already runs on AIX }
03:42 audreyt right, it's GHC
03:42 * FurnaceBoy_ rewrote to GHC
03:42 audreyt aufrank: stage1 was completed yesterday, so I was able to compile openagp; I left stage2 running overnight
03:42 audreyt it's already past the typechecker when I left office at 8pm last night
03:43 audreyt so it should be completed by now
03:43 audreyt s/openagp/openafp/
03:43 aufrank :)
03:44 audreyt it's interesting that Dior is also the father-in-law of Earendil the mariner
03:44 aufrank silmarillion++
03:45 spinclad but that one wasn't a Christian
03:45 audreyt no, I don't know any Half-elven Christians
03:46 FurnaceBoy_ is now known as FurnaceBoy
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03:48 audreyt (though there is an elven Celebrian)
03:49 spinclad and the fields of Celebrant (or i misremember)
03:51 audreyt that's correct; the field is named after the Celebrant river
03:52 * audreyt blames TimToady for inflicting this strange Tolkien addiction
03:54 * TimToady blames Tolkien...
03:55 * spinclad blames Ilúvatar
03:56 * Kattana demands support for tengwar charsets
03:58 * audreyt hands Kattana ConScript fonts
03:59 audreyt U+E001 .. U+E07F  iirc
03:59 audreyt er, sorry, U+E000.
04:01 Kattana lol, I should have known.
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04:03 * FurnaceBoy blames the Kalevala
04:12 KingDillyDilly Since there's a Wikipedia page for Perl 6, maybe I should create one for Python 3000.
04:13 KingDillyDilly (. o O)
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04:15 FurnaceBoy at least due date for that is contained in its name :)
04:15 FurnaceBoy unlike PerlChristmas
04:15 FurnaceBoy err, deployment date?
04:15 * FurnaceBoy joins the undeployment queue
04:16 KingDillyDilly It seems to be on approximately the same track as Perl 6.
04:16 FurnaceBoy I guess you could say that the long tail of Sourceforge projects are "undeployed".
04:16 FurnaceBoy that's pretty damning for a program.
04:16 FurnaceBoy Like an unseeded torrent
04:17 FurnaceBoy a soul in limbo, disembodied
04:20 * KingDillyDilly thinks the same in #python, gets a shrug from Jerub, thinks it's Juerd, not sure.
04:21 FurnaceBoy don;t wait for approval, just do it if ya wanna
04:21 spinclad pretty sure Jerub =!= Juerd
04:21 KingDillyDilly Yeah, but all I know is there's an enumerate function. I think it has something to do with numbers.
04:22 FurnaceBoy that's all you know about Python 3000 ?
04:22 FurnaceBoy there are a bunch of PEPs. I came across a trove of info recently, can't be hard to find.
04:22 KingDillyDilly Actually, that may just be Python.
04:23 KingDillyDilly I'd just do a bunch of copy and pasting with some rewording. Like my High School book reports.
04:25 KingDillyDilly I did a good job on Wikipedia's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_programming_languages with that method.
04:27 azuroth C++ isn't _that_ weak, is it?
04:27 KingDillyDilly 3 is it's rank. See the footnote.
04:27 KingDillyDilly 1 is most popular.
04:28 azuroth I mean, in type safety
04:28 FurnaceBoy it's rather strict, as they go...
04:28 FurnaceBoy mathematica ... hmmm!
04:29 KingDillyDilly Don't know. That was carried over from http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Comparison_of_programming_languages&oldid=42439602
04:29 FurnaceBoy influences column looks fairly right
04:29 KingDillyDilly I didn't create the entire chart.
04:30 FurnaceBoy I guess it's been WikiWatched for a While
04:30 azuroth would I be wrong to change C++ from "static, weak" to "static, strong"?
04:30 * FurnaceBoy wouldn't object
04:30 * FurnaceBoy didn't really intend the pun
04:30 audreyt C++ allows explicit cast, no?
04:31 mugwump doesn't Java, too ?
04:31 spinclad yes, that weakens its rating
04:31 spinclad [C++]
04:31 audreyt but Java throws exception, while C++ silently permits it, iirc
04:31 audreyt (on incompatible types)
04:31 FurnaceBoy true
04:31 azuroth hmm, I guess so. but it's explicit, and it's not like 'int a = "foo"' works...?
04:31 FurnaceBoy that might explain the rating
04:32 azuroth "static, weak (but far stronger than C)"?
04:33 FurnaceBoy LOL.
04:33 azuroth ;-p
04:33 mugwump Someone here says that (SomeClass)blahObject works in Java
04:33 FurnaceBoy "and especially much much stronger, hard to overstate really, than K&R C"
04:33 FurnaceBoy "...not to mention BCPL"
04:34 spinclad the world an array of int
04:34 KingDillyDilly http://cgibin.erols.com/ziring/cgi-bin/cep/cep.pl?_key=C%2B%2B "The more recent C++ standards do support safe casts, but this feature is not yet  universally available or employed."
04:34 audreyt mugwump: but that only works if it is really of that class or has been special-cased to handle that; it's an exception otherwise
04:34 KingDillyDilly That page was last updated in 2000.
04:34 azuroth what, dynamic_cast?
04:35 FurnaceBoy well, dynamic_cast works around the underlying weakness of C++
04:35 mugwump right, and presumably you can't resume the exception
04:35 mugwump or can you?
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04:38 mugwump I suppose not, if you get caught by a caller, but possible if you get pushed to an exception handler and can return an appropriate object
04:44 * KingDillyDilly notices the word "employed" in his quote
04:46 azuroth it's not exactly a common thing you need to do, I don't think..
04:54 PerlJam it certainly is a different crowd here now than when I'm usually paying attention
04:57 azuroth what, you expect us to talk about perl?
04:57 azuroth pft
05:11 FurnaceBoy some days it's the Perl, some days it's the swine.
05:13 PerlJam azuroth: this being #perl6 I expect people to talk about almost anything
05:13 FurnaceBoy we're pathologically eclectic
05:14 KingDillyDilly PerlJam: has Merlyn really said that Perl 6 may be too bizarre to explain?
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05:16 PerlJam KingDillyDilly: not in those words, no.  He has expressed some worry over how to explain perl6 to someone though.
05:16 KingDillyDilly I'm wearing my journalist hat. I need trash talk.
05:17 PerlJam KingDillyDilly: you need to get some context on that though.  Read the lines before I said anything about merlyn
05:17 PerlJam KingDillyDilly: "journalist"?  Where will you journal?
05:17 KingDillyDilly Wikipedia, in Perl
05:17 KingDillyDilly 's con section.
05:18 KingDillyDilly (Perl 6's yet to be created con section)
05:18 FurnaceBoy well at least it's editable :)
05:18 FurnaceBoy unlike yesterday's NYT
05:18 PerlJam no more banging on the monk's door?  :)
05:19 KingDillyDilly Wikipedia has a larger door and gets more visitors.
05:19 PerlJam that's for sure.
05:22 * FurnaceBoy mentions runs on MySQL :)
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05:26 KingDillyDilly I still have some quotes about Perl 6 trying to get emocons to compile though.
05:26 KingDillyDilly I'm scraping for trash because I figure praise will be a lot easier to find when I get to the pros part.
05:28 FurnaceBoy the problem has been mentioned before, that the trash (Fish's article) is meaningless so far, because there's nothing to critique yet.
05:28 FurnaceBoy wait for 1.0 and the bad reviews on opening night.
05:28 KingDillyDilly (emoticons)
05:28 FurnaceBoy well people said that about Perl 5, 4, 3...
05:29 FurnaceBoy Perl 6 just does it more properly like.
05:30 KingDillyDilly Unfortunately, I'm not inclined to give Perl 6 the benefit of the doubt, but I'll still be reasonably fair...considering
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05:35 KingDillyDilly I use those "emoticons" maybe more heavily than most because of my regexes. It's the non-regex emoticons that make me feel lost, but maybe that's just because I've been reading posts on a this channel instead of tutorials.
05:35 FurnaceBoy this channel will not clarify much :)
05:36 FurnaceBoy to an end user
05:38 KingDillyDilly I hate that show French in Action too. Learning by observation as opposed to instruction is innefficient.
05:39 FurnaceBoy I believe in immersion.
05:39 FurnaceBoy applies to computer languages too.
05:39 FurnaceBoy you only get good at something you do every day, that's what I believe.
05:40 PerlJam If the end user asks pertinent questions that are specific, the channel could clarify some things
05:40 FurnaceBoy and after 5 years of doing something every day, you can consider yourself semi-proficient.
05:40 PerlJam FurnaceBoy: suddenly this sounds like the intro to a porno or something.
05:41 FurnaceBoy PerlJam, it could. I was thinking of 'passive listening' to the channel being unenlightening for tutorial purposes. ;)
05:41 KingDillyDilly FurnaceBoy: It doesn't have to be that way if the language isn't among the most difficult and if the instructions are top notch.
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05:41 FurnaceBoy true, you can 'get started' quicker, but Perl6 may not be the best 'quick start' language. or maybe it will be. hard to say.
05:41 PerlJam KingDillyDilly: you consider perl6 to be very difficult?
05:41 FurnaceBoy I just had to listen to the caterwauls of an MS-ite installing Gentoo.
05:42 KingDillyDilly PerlJam: I don't really know. I just get the impression that it will be even more difficult to learn than Perl, which is supposedly harder than average.
05:43 * audreyt can certainly attest that English is much harder to learn than Perl.
05:44 audreyt (I started learning the two at around the same time)
05:45 aufrank audreyt: and that took you about 22 days, right?
05:45 audreyt and I still get plurals all mixed up. I much prefer the prefix "@-" sigil over the suffix "-s" sigil
05:45 aufrank =P
05:45 audreyt aufrank: nope ;)
05:45 PerlJam audreyt: such is the problem with organic growth.  You get all sorts of odd protuberances.
05:45 audreyt but english is also useful :)
05:45 FurnaceBoy English must be learned by rote.
05:46 FurnaceBoy (mostly)
05:46 FurnaceBoy for native english speakers, they only improve by immersion themselves.
05:46 FurnaceBoy constant input
05:46 FurnaceBoy TV doesn't cut it :)
05:47 FurnaceBoy but TimToady's the linguist...
05:47 FurnaceBoy I'm just an end user...
05:48 KingDillyDilly Has anyone who's writing Perl 6 documentation ever taken a technical writing course?
05:48 PerlJam KingDillyDilly: why would a linguist care about technical writing?  ;-)
05:49 audreyt asavige was quite versed in technical writing
05:49 audreyt and merlyn is also reputable for it :)
05:49 * audreyt looks forward to the YAPC::NA "Learning Perl 6" course
05:50 * KingDillyDilly critiqued Learning Perl on Perlmonks
05:51 audreyt sure, but well, I still appreciate merlyn's technical writing
05:51 PerlJam criticizing is easy to do.  What's hard is creating something.
05:51 KingDillyDilly As Wassercrats, not the anonymonk who acts like me.
05:51 audreyt (as both translator and instructor)
05:52 KingDillyDilly A better index is easy. Maybe I'm unique in how I learn though.
05:52 FurnaceBoy PerlJam++
05:54 KingDillyDilly One day I'm going to take a printout of my critique to a bookstore to see if the new edition of Learning Perl was improved per my suggestions.
05:56 KingDillyDilly If so, I'll write to O'Reilly to ask for a free copy since I can't buy one due to my boycott.
05:56 FurnaceBoy you could put that time into your own creation...
05:58 KingDillyDilly I use my skill in explaining in other things.
05:59 KingDillyDilly In my criticism, for example.
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06:05 KingDillyDilly Copycat: http://www.geocities.com/boycott_o_reilly/
06:06 PerlJam heh, somehow I think that boycott is of a different nature
06:06 PerlJam Do you not purchase parts from O'
06:06 PerlJam O'Reilly auto parts?
06:07 KingDillyDilly I'd try to avoid it, but I haven't had occasion to since my boycott began.
06:09 KingDillyDilly Yes, I'm boycotting the auto parts place too. "Your  browser does not have JavaScript enabled. Most of our site will  not function correctly"
06:09 KingDillyDilly I hate that.
06:21 arcady hah!
06:21 arcady where I go to school, if I use firefox, the webapp used for signing up for classes just throws an exception and dies
06:24 FurnaceBoy ouch.
06:24 FurnaceBoy hit them with a cluestick.
06:26 arcady or just rewrite the whole damn thing in a more sane way
06:26 arcady I'd've used perl 6, if it were remotely ready for that kind of use
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08:19 svnbot6 r10222 | scw++ | Pugs::Grammar::MiniPerl6
08:19 svnbot6 r10222 | scw++ |  * Combination of function application and anding parsed.
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10:53 xinming what the ip for perlcabal.org is please?  DNS server seems to be down...
10:54 Arathorn 194.145.200.126 is feather - isn't perlcabal hosted on the same box?
10:56 xinming Arathorn: thanks, works now...
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11:03 Arathorn np
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11:28 azuroth if a StockItem is actually a stock type, what should we call {x items of a specific stock type}
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12:44 lichtkind theorbtwo please get tsunami one remix of little fluffy clouds
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12:49 theorbtwo lichtkind: Huh?
12:50 lichtkind theorbtwo The Orb - Little Fluffy Clouds (Adam Freeland Tsunami One Remix).mp3
12:50 lichtkind theorbtwo i love it
12:51 theorbtwo Ah.
12:51 theorbtwo I'm not named after the band.
12:51 lichtkind i thought you said that
12:52 theorbtwo I'd never heard of the band at the time I started using the name "The Orb" -- indeed, it would have been around the same time they were named.
12:52 azuroth I never even thought to read it as three separate words before. it reminded of theodore somehow.
12:53 theorbtwo I get that surprisingly much.
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12:56 Limbic_Region oh - FYI, rafael has added "state" variables to bleed perl.  He is also using a p5 varation of examples/cashiers.p6 as a test case - go Pugs
12:57 rgs yes.
12:57 rgs and also, I'm her e:)
12:57 theorbtwo Wow!
12:57 rgs Limbic_Region++ # sends patch ideas
12:57 * theorbtwo wonders when 5.10.0 will be out.
12:57 * rgs too.
12:58 Limbic_Region oh, cool - except I think the example could use a bit of refining
12:58 * Limbic_Region is testing now
12:58 theorbtwo I suppose asking more questions along that line would be both OT and annoying.
12:58 rgs refining patches welcome
12:59 rgs theorbtwo: /me wonders when pugs 2*pi will be out. :)
13:00 Limbic_Region rgs - I guess it is just a matter of taste.  To be closer to the p6 example, $amount belongs inside each of the anonymous subs not the pseudo-object constructor
13:00 Limbic_Region but it works the same
13:00 Limbic_Region so rgs++
13:01 rgs Limbic_Region: in Perl 5, if $amount is not declared outside, those are not closures, so the point of the test is a bit missing
13:01 Arathorn state is for lexical variables which last for the life of the closure, right?
13:02 Limbic_Region rgs - they don't need to be closed over
13:02 Limbic_Region let me provide an example
13:02 rgs right
13:02 rgs but the test is testier that way ! :)
13:02 rgs (meaning, less redundant with previous tests)
13:06 pasteling "Limbic_Region" at 129.33.119.12 pasted "For rgs - a closer bleed perl example of examples/cashiers.p6" (20 lines, 409B) at http://sial.org/pbot/17037
13:06 rgs Limbic_Region: yes, that was my 1st implementation in perl 5 of the cashier example
13:06 rgs (and it works :)
13:08 Limbic_Region anyway - just good to see that Pugs is in a position to be blazing the way for p5
13:08 theorbtwo Roughly how many posts/day does p5p get?
13:09 rgs there are lots of patches lately
13:10 rgs probably 30 posts a day or so
13:12 theorbtwo Hm, that's not bad.
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13:15 * theorbtwo subscribes to perl5-porters, unsubscribes from qemu-devel
13:16 rgs woot
13:18 clkao audreyt: are you coming to yapc::eu?
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13:19 theorbtwo Hm, is there anything stopping us from allowing %foo  {'bar'}, other then paren-less if?
13:21 theorbtwo (Assuming we allow the parser look-ahead to the next non-whitespace char.
13:23 Limbic_Region isn't that what abigail was bitching about a couple of years ago
13:24 Limbic_Region that if you wanted to do that - you need the . to let the parser know what you were doing?
13:24 rgs yes. abigail was also bitching about print ("foo") emitting warnings in perl 5
13:24 Limbic_Region well, he can't be right all the time now can he
13:24 Limbic_Region ;-)
13:26 Arathorn what is the ambiguity in 'print ("foo")', ooi?
13:26 Arathorn (and why doesn't that warning also show for 'print ("foo")'?
13:27 azuroth Arathorn: what's the difference?
13:27 rgs print ($x + $y) + $z
13:28 theorbtwo Which, as abigail pointed out, is an addition in void context.
13:28 theorbtwo I do that all the time, but only because my fingers are programmed to type perl -le instead of perl -wle
13:29 rgs but the keystroke you save on avoiding w is wasted on a good whitespace !
13:30 Arathorn azuroth: oops - this client munges whitespace - the second example had a doublespace between print and (
13:30 azuroth ahh
13:31 azuroth that makes me hurt...
13:31 theorbtwo Arathorn: Because the code that creates the warning is a bit on the buggy side.  It should probably be fixed or removed entirely, but apparently nobody has done either yet, possibly because of not being able to decide which should happen.
13:31 theorbtwo OTOH, in perl6 they mean completely different things.
13:32 Arathorn fair enough.
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16:37 svnbot6 r10223 | scw++ | Pugs::Grammar::MiniPerl6
16:37 svnbot6 r10223 | scw++ |  * Function application with parameters supported
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16:58 svnbot6 r10224 | fglock++ | RuleInline-more.pl - additional rule/token primitives, to be merged into RuleInline.pl
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17:40 aufrank ?seen audreyt
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18:33 fglock SoC suggestions answered - I hope I'm not over-promising
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18:36 aufrank fglock: what are you proposing?
18:39 fglock basically, a rewrite of Perl6-Value/Perl6-Container for integration with Pugs::Compiler::Rule and the other Perl6-on-Perl5 tools
18:39 aufrank neat!
18:40 aufrank when you say 'suggestions answered' does that mean you proposed something in public somewhere?
18:41 fglock there is a place for people to make contributions in the SoC page - I think only mentors can access that
18:48 aufrank fglock: did you email with your mentor before you submitted the proposal, or was the proposal the first step?
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18:54 fglock aufrank: I discussed it here, and then I mailed some people for suggestions - but I don't know who is the actual mentor yet
18:54 aufrank I see
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18:58 fglock later &
18:58 fglock left perl6
18:58 aufrank bye!
19:12 Aankh|Clone is now known as Aankhen``
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19:58 Steve_p seen TheDamian?
19:58 jabbot Steve_p: I havn't seen TheDamian, Steve_p
19:59 Steve_p Hmmmm
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22:22 mugwump TimToady, audreyt : S06 typo: 'subset' under Polymorphic types should be 'subtype', no?
22:26 TimToady no, we renamed it "subset" because people think subtype means derived type, and subsets sets are designed to violate Liskov subst.
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22:30 mugwump ok.  Hey, is there syntax for higher order/parametric types?  I remember something about 'is shape', I'm just searching the synopses for it now
22:31 mugwump I see S09 using it for multidimensional arrays, which is a bit different
22:32 TimToady parametric types are normally declared as roles--see S12.
22:32 mugwump ah, I see
22:32 TimToady shaped arrays are a particular sort of parametric type.
22:33 mugwump yes.  and multidimensional ones are actually nested parametric types, I think.  With a nice syntax of course
22:34 mugwump ie, my int @foo[^3;^3;^3] is something like Array of (Array of (Array of int where { .items == 3}) where { .items == 3 }) where { .items == 3 }
22:35 * theorbtwo is certianly glad for the nice syntax.
22:35 mugwump so, is Array defined something like;
22:35 TimToady well, it's more like "this dimension's type is 0..2
22:36 mugwump role Array[::X] { ... }
22:36 mugwump ?
22:36 mugwump and Mapping: role Mapping[::X, ::Y] { ... }
22:39 mugwump Can I make it a list?
22:39 TimToady cat you make what a list?
22:39 TimToady *can
22:40 mugwump role Relation[ ::X, ::Y, ... ] { ... }
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22:40 TimToady presumably one could use a slurpy of some sort.
22:41 TimToady it's just a signature, as far as I know.
22:41 mugwump ooo that's interesting indeed
22:42 TimToady at worst you say role Relation[ \$Capture ] {...} and decode the capture by hand...
22:43 mugwump But could I write : role Tuple[ *::T ] { has @.items of T }
22:43 mugwump ?
22:44 TimToady I don't know.  that looks more like a slurpy scalar than a slurpy array.
22:45 TimToady Type names are first class things, so you can collect them in an ordinary *@types array.
22:46 mugwump cool
22:46 TimToady but how you'd then use that to declare @.items I'm not sure.
22:47 TimToady arrays are generally considered to be of homogenous type.
22:49 TimToady Seems like the Tuple[] declaration is just trying to dup a class declaration with separate attributes...
22:49 theorbtwo TimToady: Why not just has @.items of any(@types)?
22:50 TimToady I don't think that's the customary meaning of Tuple...
22:50 mugwump no, certainly not what I'm after ... :)
22:50 theorbtwo I was just looking at the small problem.
22:52 TimToady classes and roles look like declarations, but they're really just calling metaclass methods underneath when you say "has" and such.
22:52 mugwump ssh don't say that too loudly TimToady ;)
22:53 TimToady Perl will remain a dynamic language... :)
22:53 TimToady the point, though, is that with customary forms of declaration, customary forms of analysis can be brought to bear.
22:54 TimToady BEGIN is just an inside-out eval.
22:54 TimToady both of them are last-ditch escape valves.
22:54 TimToady use of either of them usually indicates a missing language feature.
22:54 * mugwump nods
22:55 TimToady and usually the language feature can be added with much better control.
22:55 TimToady symbolic links instead of eval...
22:55 TimToady use instead of BEGIN
22:55 mugwump parsetree macros instead of source filters... ;)
22:55 TimToady and the "official" language can encompass those dynamic constructs that
22:56 TimToady can keep track better, like macros, yes.
22:56 TimToady so we can keep the ideal that Perl is really a suite of languages, not a single language.
22:56 TimToady But hopefully still enable tools to work consistently.
22:58 mugwump Perl not single language, it rules!
22:58 TimToady well, we still have to prove it can be done...
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23:46 azuroth gee, it's surprisingly early.
23:46 meppl gute nacht

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