Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-05-10

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Time Nick Message
00:00 SamB joined perl6
00:29 trym joined perl6
00:37 azuroth joined perl6
00:44 bsb joined perl6
00:49 audreyt TimToady, azuroth: The Ps/Pe + Bidi table is available at
00:49 audreyt http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/src/Pugs/Lexer.hs
00:50 audreyt scroll down a couple pages for "balancedDelim"
01:02 svnbot6 r10256 | audreyt++ | * run_pge.pir: set Pugs/PGE external-parrot bridge to
01:02 svnbot6 r10256 | audreyt++ |   accept utf8 and output utf8, enabling unicode rules.
01:02 svnbot6 r10256 | audreyt++ |   pmichaud++ for the hint on the treating-filehandle-as-arrays
01:02 svnbot6 r10256 | audreyt++ |   trick of manipulating its layers.
01:03 audreyt (this doesn't fix embedded parrot)
01:03 audreyt ?eval "\197" ~~ /./
01:03 evalbot_10255 Match.new(   ok => bool::true,    from => 0,    to => 1,    str => "\197",    sub_pos => (),    sub_named => {} )
01:03 audreyt ?eval "\197" ~~ /../
01:03 evalbot_10255 Match.new(   ok => bool::false,    from => 0,    to => 0,    str => "",    sub_pos => (),    sub_named => {} )
01:03 audreyt have fun :)
01:04 meppl gute nacht
01:20 Alias_ joined perl6
01:20 Alias_ Wow those topics sick
01:20 Alias_ errr
01:20 Alias_ stick
01:20 Alias_ Freudian :)
01:20 Alias_ seen audreyt?
01:20 jabbot Alias_: audreyt was seen 17 minutes 14 seconds ago
01:21 Alias_ audreyt: So, auto_install()... it is safe to remove if there's no features or options?
01:21 Alias_ s/safe/safe|preferable/
01:21 audreyt yes.
01:22 Alias_ And it's still needed for options/features
01:22 Alias_ ?
01:22 Alias_ (since I don't see any other obvious user-interaction code)
01:35 audreyt it's needed so the user get to pick features
01:38 Alias_ ok
01:39 Alias_ So the path to factoring it out is remove for no-interaction immediately, finish ::With, then reimplement the user-interaction somewhere
01:39 Alias_ AutoInstall is feeling increasingly mitochondrial
01:39 Alias_ Not part of M:I, just sort of lumped in there doin it's own thing
01:40 Alias_ :)
01:49 audreyt was,, it _is_ mitochondrial :)
01:49 jserv-- joined perl6
01:55 particle_ S02 specifies '::' as the sigil for package/module/class/role/subset/enum/type...
01:55 particle_ also included are grammar/regex/token/rule, correct?
01:56 audreyt grammar, yes.
01:56 audreyt regex/token/rule, no.
01:56 audreyt they are either just &
01:56 particle_ ah, of course.
01:56 audreyt or explicitly invoked as <rule> within rules
01:56 particle_ perhaps those should be added to the synopsis, for my edification :)
01:56 audreyt post a patch?
01:56 particle_ will do
01:57 particle_ can i svn co? is there a public interface?
01:58 obra audreyt: you're coming to oscon?
01:58 particle_ obra: you're coming to yapc::na?
01:59 obra particle_: I am
02:00 particle_ it'll be great to meet you
02:01 obra likewise
02:02 audreyt obra: yes
02:02 audreyt particle_: http://svn.perl.org/perl6/doc/trunk/design/syn
02:03 particle_ thx, just got doc/trunk
02:03 particle_ i'll submit diff from that root
02:03 audreyt k
02:03 obra audreyt: you seeing my /msgs?
02:04 audreyt sorry, forgot nickserv
02:06 obra no worries
02:10 audreyt pmichaud_: where is it specced that "self" means "$/" in rules?
02:11 audreyt it seems deeply wrong in many levels.
02:15 pmichaud_ audreyt: I don't think it's specced explicitly
02:16 pmichaud_ audreyt: I agree it seems deeply wrong in many levels.  But this is what was discussed at last summer's hackathon (more)
02:16 audreyt I remember that being discussed, but I didn't remember larry made a ruling... but maybe I wasn't there...
02:16 pmichaud_ and this is how it came across in some of the earlier versions of S05, as well as A05
02:16 audreyt but it's a very bad idea.
02:17 pmichaud_ PGE doesn't actually use it as "self", nor does it create rules as methods
02:17 audreyt unspecced one at that.
02:17 audreyt yup, neither does Pugs
02:17 pmichaud_ it was discussed a bit on p6l last fall
02:18 audreyt I think they are better off as class methods, or (even better) normal subroutines in mixin-like rule modules
02:18 audreyt I mean, grammar modules
02:18 audreyt but one way or another, having $.foo and $<foo> mean exactly the same thing
02:18 audreyt doesn't seems like useful to me
02:18 pmichaud_ ...is that the case?
02:18 pmichaud_ I didn't think that $.foo and $<foo> were the same
02:19 audreyt inside a rule's production
02:19 audreyt they are the same.
02:19 audreyt which worries me.
02:19 pmichaud_ ...why is that?
02:19 audreyt because "self" is "$/"
02:19 audreyt and $.foo desugars to self.foo as scalar
02:19 audreyt and $<foo> desugars to $/.<foo> as scalar
02:19 audreyt which turns out to be the same thing
02:20 pmichaud_ I'm not sure it is -- at least, it's not that way in PGE
02:20 audreyt assuming the A12 object-serving-as-hash idea
02:20 pmichaud_ I didn't catch the A12 object-serving-as-hash idea
02:20 pmichaud_ I knew about the relationship of $.foo and self.foo, yes
02:21 audreyt in any case, we still have self.<foo> the same as $<foo>
02:21 pmichaud_ but I didn't think that $.foo would also be self.<foo>
02:21 audreyt and $.from the same as $/.from
02:21 audreyt pmichaud_: hm, come to think about it, Match defines its own "as Hash" methods
02:22 audreyt so $.foo won't become self.<foo>
02:22 pmichaud_ yes, exactly
02:22 audreyt it only does that, according to TT, for classes with no explicit hashification forms
02:22 audreyt mea culpa
02:22 pmichaud_ np
02:23 audreyt but still... what is the use case for $.from being the same as $/.from :)
02:24 pmichaud_ it's not so much that there's a use case, just that this is the means by which I've been able to get things to work
02:25 audreyt I understand :) it's just, I don't see the benefit of exposing this to userspace
02:26 audreyt I'll stop bugging you and let you do useful work in #parrot :)
02:28 pmichaud_ I don't plan to expose it to userspace.  In fact, it's been this way for almost a year and nobody's noticed "how" it works until they start inquiring and the terms don't make sense :-)
02:29 audreyt ooh, that means Match needs boxing :)
02:29 audreyt (which is fine)
02:29 audreyt nod. it's jsut a bit confusing to think PGE's Match and Perl6's Match
02:29 audreyt as the same thing
02:29 audreyt but if it's clear they are drastically different
02:29 audreyt I think that'd be fine :)
02:45 Cryptic_K joined perl6
02:56 weinig_ is now known as weinig
02:57 weinig is now known as weinig|sleep
03:28 dduncan joined perl6
03:29 aeon__ joined perl6
03:30 dduncan I was just looking at audreyt's new blog entry ... and from that I realized I had a few extra reasons to attend OSCON 2006
03:30 dduncan until reading that, I was on the fence as to whether it would be worth it, having gone to the 2005 one
03:30 dduncan still undecided, but now leaning further towards going
03:30 dduncan fyi
03:32 dduncan when I say "worth it", I mean that I enjoyed the 2005 one a lot, but was wondering how much new stuff there would be over that
03:32 dduncan fyi
03:32 audreyt nod :)
03:32 audreyt you not going to YAPC::NA?
03:33 merlyn <<== going to YAPC::NA and YAPC::SA, but not OSCON
03:33 audreyt I was like that
03:33 audreyt until yesterday
03:33 audreyt now I'm going to all 3 :D
03:33 merlyn oscon is no longer about perl
03:33 merlyn no point in me being there
03:34 audreyt exactly
03:34 hcchien mutt
03:34 merlyn I'm not spending money on any more parties, etc.
03:34 hcchien ouch, sorry. :p
03:34 audreyt I'm there to talk with mono and ruby and js people.
03:34 audreyt not particularly perl folks :)
03:34 dduncan as I'm still limited financially, relative to some of you, I have preferred OSCON to some other large events due to it being close enough that I can go there in a bus rather than needing to fly
03:34 merlyn anyone I could have influenced is already known to me.
03:34 dduncan but do want to go to YAPCs as well before too long
03:35 dduncan s/bus/car-pool
03:35 merlyn the YAPC::SA should be interesting
03:35 merlyn with lwall and audrey and me.
03:35 miyagawa <- going to YAPC::NA, OSCON and YAPC::EU. Not YAPC::SA :/
03:36 audreyt miyagawa: oh, btw. you okay with YAML::Syck and JSON::Syck be released under the same term as libsyck
03:36 audreyt aka the MIT (or BSD1) license?
03:36 dduncan merlyn, do you mean that OSCON has no interest to Perl folks, or that it just isn't as focussed on Perl as it was before?
03:36 miyagawa audreyt: sure
03:36 merlyn It's becoming dead to Perl
03:36 audreyt k, thx, it will go in effect next release
03:36 merlyn fewer talks, fewer special events
03:36 merlyn really no point for perl people to go
03:37 merlyn and this is partially because the OSCON organizers are openly hostile to Perl
03:37 dduncan I thought it was an official annual perl conference, with state of the onion talks and such
03:37 audreyt well, I wouldn't say "dead"
03:37 audreyt "the same status as python"
03:37 dduncan merlyn, is that so?
03:37 hikozaemon joined perl6
03:37 merlyn Yup
03:37 audreyt is more like it
03:37 merlyn Not web 2.0-ish enough. :)
03:37 merlyn Perl - still runs half the known net-verse.  But not interesting to O'Reilly any more
03:37 audreyt and instead of "hostile" I think it's just "not _hip_ anymore"
03:38 audreyt indeed.
03:38 KimJongIl joined perl6
03:38 merlyn hopefully, p6 will bring back the ruby crowd
03:38 KimJongIl perl6 here yet?
03:38 audreyt evalbot_10255: say "I'm here"
03:38 audreyt ?eval say "I'm here"
03:38 evalbot_10256 OUTPUT[I'm here ] bool::true
03:38 dduncan well, if I do go, I'll do the Haskell tutorial for sure
03:39 dduncan on the other hand, if I decided to go to YAPC::NA instead, is it too late to get reasonable flights and/or register?
03:40 audreyt KimJongIl: we have a prototype version running a few IRC bots. :)
03:40 audreyt so if "here" means #perl6, yes, the bots are here
03:40 audreyt (written in perl6 themselves, for months now)
03:40 KimJongIl prototype?
03:40 KimJongIl anything for production use?
03:41 KimJongIl i have run out of people wanting to mine the uranium deposits
03:41 KimJongIl and they refuses to be powered by rock soup
03:41 KimJongIl i need robotics powered by production quality perl 6
03:41 KimJongIl ETA?
03:41 miyagawa dduncan: I don't think so, since I booked a flight to Chicago yesterday
03:41 audreyt KimJongIl: by Christmas.
03:41 merlyn it's pretty null - http://thedailywtf.com/forums/71684/ShowPost.aspx
03:41 KimJongIl audreyt: that sounds familiar...
03:41 merlyn Perl needs to support "Null" :)
03:41 dduncan what meaning of "null"?
03:42 audreyt KimJongIl: that is the officially canonical answer
03:42 svnbot6 r10257 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Embed.Parrot: make utf-8 strings when embedding
03:42 svnbot6 r10257 | audreyt++ |   Parrot/PGE.  This means proper unicode rule handling
03:42 svnbot6 r10257 | audreyt++ |   in both external and embedded parrot.
03:42 audreyt we refuse to give other answers :)
03:42 dduncan Perl's "undef" is already like some senses of "null"
03:42 audreyt dduncan: no, undef+42 isn't undef
03:42 audreyt null+42 would be null
03:42 dduncan so that's a different meaning of null
03:43 KimJongIl audreyt: so when my friends say perl 6 will never come, is that the same thing as christmas?
03:43 audreyt KimJongIl: I don't know. they used to say that Mozilla will never come.
03:43 audreyt _I_ used to say that.
03:43 KimJongIl audreyt: no one uses mozilla
03:43 audreyt there are some firefox users, I hear.
03:43 KimJongIl 10% of power users use firefox
03:43 audreyt it's the same project, same engine.
03:43 audreyt right. if 10% of power programmers use perl6
03:44 audreyt I'd be very, very, very happy.
03:44 KimJongIl the other 90% of power user are too busy doing other stuff, like having sex
03:44 audreyt I think you answered your own question :)
03:44 KimJongIl http://dev.perl.org/perl6/faq.html
03:45 KimJongIl okay i should have heed your answer
03:45 KimJongIl there's no date
03:45 dduncan this isn't the same thing per se, but I once proposed on p6l that the behaviour of undef be changed to say null + 42 = null ...
03:46 dduncan Larry strongly disliked it
03:46 dduncan and in retrospect, I like undef's current behaviour much better
03:46 KimJongIl i guess i should be using ironpython and learn to like "production-quality" commercial crap
03:46 dduncan where it acts like the given type's "empty" value
03:46 audreyt KimJongIl: fwiw, ironpython isn't much more production-worthy compared to pugs.
03:46 dduncan that works a lot better for me than undef + 42  = undef
03:46 audreyt esp. if you run it on Mono.
03:47 azuroth I concur
03:47 KimJongIl audreyt: i am not going to run on it mono
03:47 KimJongIl no offense
03:47 audreyt oh. you are on win32 exclusively.... then I recommend Visual Basic.
03:48 audreyt it's really nice.
03:48 audreyt (seriously.)
03:48 audreyt and production quality too.
03:49 KimJongIl well you see, visual basic is not really production quality, not many bots on this channel were written in vb
03:49 KimJongIl so it must suck
03:49 audreyt well, there are VB IRC bots
03:49 dduncan perhaps if I attend OSCON 2006, I"ll propose/give a lightning talk demonstrating how one can do SQL-like things in native Perl 6, using syntax that is both as similar as possible but better all the same
03:49 audreyt it's just we don't deploy it in #perl6 :)
03:49 dduncan who needs to embed another call layer when you can use Perl 6 itself
03:49 azuroth not many clients on this channel were written in windows, so ...? ;-)
03:50 audreyt dduncan: that would be very nice!
03:50 dduncan indeed
03:50 dduncan and you know from real life that this is one of the most common things people do with programs ... talk to databases
03:51 * KimJongIl goes back to working with oss software as oppose to fan boying about it
03:51 dduncan Perl looks more "with it" if it can do things itself
03:51 dduncan I'll defer talking more about this in detail until later
03:52 buu dduncan: That sounds damn cool.
03:52 audreyt dduncan: you've read about LINQ?
03:52 dduncan I can't say I have
03:52 audreyt (the same thing for Visual Basic)
03:53 dduncan I know some languages like Coldfusion or Foxpro have db language built into them
03:53 dduncan I figure perl 6 should too
03:53 dduncan as is reasonable
03:53 audreyt oh. http://msdn.microsoft.com/data/linq/
03:53 audreyt the DLinq part corresponds to what you are talking about
03:54 azuroth are there decent free vb.net compilers?
03:55 audreyt no. mono can run the vb.net compiler
03:55 dduncan what I propose for databases in perl 6 is that perl 6 would include an interface for what looks like relational data structures in the language itself ... and it would have a default implementation that just has them in RAM like normal array/hash/set/etc variables ... but that one can tie these to other implementations that make them persist somewhere ... as one can tie hashes etc to DBM files
03:55 audreyt there is also SharpDevelop
03:55 dduncan and in perl 6, such DBM ties are no longer in the core, but third party
03:56 audreyt azuroth: there is a mono-vb compiler
03:56 audreyt but I'm not sure of its current state
03:56 audreyt dduncan: definitely read the LINQ material :)
03:56 dduncan okay
03:56 audreyt erik did exactly that, by making query methods work across a lot of classes
03:57 audreyt azuroth: http://www.mono-project.co​m/VisualBasic.NET_support
03:58 audreyt alpha-review status, seems to be useful to play with already
03:58 dduncan note that I only mention SQL for familiarity ... I'm not going by any means going to make the interface look like SQL for the sake of that ... more likely the interface will look very different, but wrappers would make it more SQL like
03:58 dduncan no reason to limit oneself
03:58 dduncan back in a bit
03:59 azuroth oh, cool. we were thinking of trying vb.net for a TAFE project, but now we're trying C# instead
04:05 audreyt TAFE?
04:07 azuroth turtle and four elephants. college
04:08 audreyt ah. so it's not turtles all the way down
04:08 KimJongIl audreyt: are progress being made in perl 6 at a worthwhile pace that one might imagine a near future date where asking when perl 6 might be done might be a meaningful question?
04:08 KimJongIl or are we looking at stagnation?
04:09 audreyt KimJongIl: we are definitely not looking at stagnation.
04:09 audreyt some would estimate _this_ christmas, some would estimate next.
04:09 audreyt of course, some may estimate year 3000 as well
04:10 audreyt oh wait, that's another language...
04:10 KimJongIl okay i give up
04:10 KimJongIl i tried, i really tried
04:10 KimJongIl i'll munch on some zen cookies instead
04:11 KimJongIl when it's here, i'll be here, and we'll all be taking five years to learn it and spending ten more years leveraging it
04:11 azuroth ?eval my @a = (1,2,3,4); @a >>*<< (1,2)
04:11 evalbot_10257 (1, 4, 3, 4)
04:11 KimJongIl until then, i guess it's just the state it is in and the bot writers, have fun
04:11 audreyt KimJongIl: alternately you can, well, improve the docs and examples and code :)
04:11 audreyt want a commit bit?
04:12 azuroth ?eval my @a = (1,2,3,4); @a >>*<< (1,2) xx *
04:12 evalbot_10257 Error:  unexpected end of input expecting term
04:12 azuroth ?eval my @a = (1,2,3,4); @a >>*<< ((1,2) xx *)
04:12 audreyt azuroth: Whatever is not yet parsed
04:12 evalbot_10257 Error:  unexpected ")" expecting term
04:12 azuroth ?eval my @a = (1,2,3,4); @a >>*<< (1,2) xx 2
04:12 audreyt or indeed supported ;)
04:12 evalbot_10257 (1, 4, 3, 4, 1, 4, 3, 4)
04:12 azuroth ?eval my @a = (1,2,3,4); @a >>*<< ((1,2) xx 2)
04:12 evalbot_10257 (1, 4, 3, 8)
04:12 azuroth ahh :-)
04:15 buu Horrifying
04:15 azuroth my eval..?
04:18 audreyt $job, bbl &
04:22 dduncan ditto
04:24 Alias_ KimJongIl: Perhaps I can give you your answers
04:24 Alias_ You'll see an Alpha this year, and a Beta next year
04:24 Alias_ I think that's a fairly safe call, right audreyt?
04:25 audreyt right.
04:25 Alias_ As to whether you'll see a beta this year, or a production release next year.... maybe
04:26 Alias_ But then reading back over the last hour, he's almost a troll, so I'm not sure that answer helps
04:27 audreyt the way to tell trolls from non- is acceptance of a commit bit.
04:27 audreyt (to me)
04:27 FurnaceBoy_ ++(++audreyt)
04:27 Alias_ :)
04:28 Alias_ So, when's the alpha due? :)
04:30 TimToady what is this "due" thing?
04:31 Alias_ Oh come on, you like stage shows. I'm sure somewhere in there you've got a "it would be nice to have something for $event"
04:31 Alias_ TimToady: Also, you really need to ask people not to transcribe your talks... they come out weird
04:32 TimToady um...
04:32 Alias_ Video's would be great... but your talks don't translate so well to words. All the jokes dissapear
04:32 Alias_ Videos
04:32 TimToady my wife married me because I make faces.
04:33 FurnaceBoy_ "everybody has something," they say.
04:33 TimToady she also married me because I would eat almost anything.
04:34 TimToady well, at least I can still make faces...
04:36 Alias_ Anyways... videos good, transcripts bad
04:37 Alias_ Having only seen one talk in person, but read several transcripts
04:37 TimToady yeah, timing is everything when you're doing stand-up comedy.
04:37 Alias_ right
04:37 Alias_ Standup comedy, without any timing, and without the aid of the visual props
04:37 Alias_ That pretty much sums it up
04:38 dduncan left perl6
04:38 Alias_ In fact, I recommend your next State of the Onion somewhere early includes an apology to all those reading the transcript :)
04:41 TimToady I could probably spend the whole half hour apologizing.  :)
04:41 Alias_ hehh
04:43 Alias_ There's probably a few of us that should be though
04:43 Alias_ Anyone involved in Bundle::CPAN for a start
04:43 Alias_ What amess
04:43 azuroth apologizing?
04:44 Alias_ For making such a cluster-fuck of the next-gen toolchain modules
04:44 Alias_ By the standards of the previous generation
04:44 TimToady Some apologies are messier than others. :)
04:45 Alias_ audreyt: I've asked ANDK to pull Module::Signature support for CPAN.pm for a while
04:45 Alias_ audreyt: More problems keep appearing, and there's nobody put up their hand yet to sort them out
04:46 Alias_ (or at least, disable it by default, and not include it in Bundle::CPAN)
04:46 justatheory joined perl6
04:48 Khisanth joined perl6
04:49 TimToady how do we avoid a similar mess in Perl 6?
04:50 Alias_ Treat the toolchain to a different standard to $everything_else
04:50 Alias_ If that means centralised control or something...
04:50 TimToady you mean, kinda like the Parrot model?
04:51 Alias_ Most of the problems seem to come from people not realising the impact of recursive dependency cascades
04:51 Alias_ So they write some module, and release it, and 4000 modules break on Win32
04:51 Alias_ Schwern's Test::Builder trick broke about 3000
04:52 Alias_ Schwern++ # Exceptionall well recovered
04:52 Alias_ Some of it is just not thinking 4th dimensionally :)
04:52 Alias_ In fact, MOST of it is
04:52 TimToady is it something computers can help with, in theory?
04:52 Alias_ yep
04:53 Alias_ We can go over this at the hackathon if you like
04:53 Khisanth joined perl6
04:53 Alias_ But you should get a pretty good intro from the PITA talk
04:53 TimToady we've tried to address a few of the issues where they impact language design, but I'm sure that's the flag flying on the tip of the iceberg...
04:54 * Alias_ nods
04:54 TimToady PITA?
04:54 Alias_ http://ali.as/pita/
04:54 Alias_ I haven't talked about it much
04:54 Alias_ Not till there's something to actually try out do I want people mucking with it
04:55 Alias_ To be honest, MOST of the problem is located above the surface of the language, not below it
04:55 Alias_ So there's no a lot you can do from a language design POV
04:55 Alias_ There's certainly things to be done in terms of what you roll into the default "Perl 6" dist though
04:56 Alias_ In fact, bootstrapping from the raw language up to a CPAN environment is half the problem
04:56 TimToady yes, I was thinking that earlier.
04:56 Alias_ And the other half is just quality control, which I think I'll have sorted out by the end of the year
04:56 Alias_ CPAN Testers 2 et al
04:57 TimToady we need to be clear what the various definitions of "core" are.
04:57 * Alias_ nods
04:57 Alias_ rigorously so
04:57 Alias_ With compliance tests
04:57 Alias_ So RedHat can't do this missing-weaken shite
04:57 Alias_ RedHat--
04:58 Alias_ Some way of running the test suite against the binary package so you can stamp a "Perl" trademark on it
04:58 Alias_ Similar to what Java has... that would be nice
04:59 Alias_ I'd even commision the stamps for you if you did :)
04:59 TimToady unfortunately, at some point that takes both political and financial resources.
04:59 Alias_ Apparently the Perl Foundation has too much money...
05:00 Alias_ TimToady: I don't think it's anything you'd want to spend effort legally enforcing
05:00 Alias_ But if there's some script to lift the test suite off the build environment, so you can tell RedHat "run that", that would be nice
05:01 TimToady technological fixes are nice that way.
05:01 Alias_ right
05:01 TimToady and that's actually something that Perl 5 got a little bit right.
05:01 TimToady more out of necessity than anything...
05:02 Alias_ indeed
05:02 TimToady but we could do it so much better if we knew what we were doing.
05:02 Alias_ There's a reason that the best Documentation Management companies in the world come from South Africa
05:02 Alias_ Because they need to be...
05:02 Alias_ I see similar parallels to Perl
05:03 Alias_ Anyways, see my talk after yours on Day 1 for the QA plan I want to use for both P5 and P6
05:04 Alias_ And I hope to spend some time at the hackfest going over the 6PAN plans
05:04 TimToady sounds like a really good plan
05:05 Alias_ And I might solicit your help/name later this year if you don't mind, because I'd like to try and find a $big_company willing to donate a blade server or a small cluster
05:06 Alias_ And my contacts in the relevant companies are negligable
05:07 TimToady well, I don't network much that way either...
05:07 TimToady but you can certainly whack people over the head with my name if you like.
05:07 Alias_ thanks
05:08 Alias_ hmm... actually... I wonder if there might be some SGI stuff going cheap some time soon...
05:09 Alias_ Anyways, I have an airport to finish
05:09 * Alias_ &
05:09 TimToady ciao
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05:20 azuroth what's a word for... saving something for later use?
05:21 azuroth I know, thesaurus
05:21 FurnaceBoy_ push :)
05:23 azuroth I think 'defer' works: "defer the sale and finish it later"
05:24 gaal postpone?
05:24 FurnaceBoy_ yeah, that's how postfix describes its "send later" queue
05:24 gaal { &something } ?
05:24 FurnaceBoy_ (deferred)
05:24 FurnaceBoy_ in abeyance :)
05:25 FurnaceBoy_ held over
05:25 gaal cryogenically treated?
05:25 azuroth postpone isn't bad. it needs to be imperative, for a button
05:30 azuroth I'm hoping to have half a year to work on pugs et al exclusively, soon. it should be cool.
05:30 FurnaceBoy_ wheeeee
05:31 FurnaceBoy_ christmas comes early this year
05:31 azuroth hopefully :-)
05:32 Alias_ wow, half a year?
05:32 Alias_ eep, distracted, should be working
05:33 azuroth well, probably. might need to find a job to satisfy my parents, but hopefully they'll let me treat it just as more education or something
05:35 Alias_ How old are you?
05:35 azuroth just eighteen :-)
05:36 azuroth I'm at TAFE at the moment, doing a diploma
05:37 * Alias_ blinks, TAFE?
05:37 Alias_ Where?
05:37 azuroth tighes hill, newcastle
05:37 azuroth around three hours from sydney
05:37 Alias_ I know
05:38 Alias_ I have family there
05:38 azuroth oh, wow
05:38 Alias_ Actually, I'll be visiting next week
05:38 Alias_ Have to help my aging grandmother buy some headphones
05:39 azuroth heheh. that's a weird request. you're from sydney?
05:39 Alias_ Lismore
05:39 Alias_ My grandmother is getting quite old now, she's well into her 80s
05:39 Alias_ And she doesn't really trust anyone else to help her buy them
05:39 Alias_ I helped her get her little CD player, and taught her how to use it
05:40 azuroth ahh
05:40 Alias_ Made sure she got one where she'd only need to ever press two buttons, play and eject
05:41 Alias_ A lot of people born before the war struggle with technology
05:41 azuroth yeah, I suppose so
05:41 Alias_ I'm really pissed off with DVDs, because there's no way in hell she could navigate the menu systems
05:42 Alias_ 1. Put in video 2. Hit rewind 3. Wait 4. Hit play
05:42 Alias_ So she can't watch movies any more now that everything is DVDs
05:43 * Alias_ files that away for later under "Examples of why user interface design is important"
05:43 azuroth speaking of user interface design... want to do the gui for a point of sales system? *whince*
05:44 Alias_ I'm fully booked till YAPC
05:44 Alias_ overbooked, actually
05:44 Alias_ So much so I shouldn't be talking to you :)
05:44 azuroth hehehe
05:45 * Alias_ will be in magnet #perl if anyone wants to talk 6PAN
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05:57 svnbot6 r10258 | scw++ | Pugs::Grammar::MiniPerl6: correct tests
06:11 TimToady ?eval "a" ~~ /a/; /^ <foo> $/;
06:11 evalbot_10258 *** Cannot parse PGE: ^ <foo> $ *** Error: Name 'foo' not found  Match.new(   ok => bool::false,    from => 0,    to => 0,    str => "",    sub_pos => (),    sub_named => {} )
06:11 TimToady ?eval "a" ~~ /a/; "a" ~~ /^ <alpha> $/;
06:11 evalbot_10258 Match.new(   ok => bool::true,    from => 0,    to => 1,    str => "a",    sub_pos => (),    sub_named =>     { "alpha" =>         Match.new(           ok => bool::true,            from => 0,            to => 1,            str => "a",            sub_pos => (),            sub_named => {}         )     } )
06:12 TimToady those both coredump with embedded...
06:14 TimToady my guess is that parrot is trying to reinitialize whatever it's using for $/.
06:16 TimToady that guess is based on the fact that the first ~~ must succeed to get the core dump.
06:17 TimToady Interestingly, changing /^ <foo> $/ to remove either of the spaces suppresses the core dump.
06:17 TimToady or changine <foo> to .
06:17 TimToady even changing ^ to ^^.
06:18 TimToady so it almost seems like a fencepost error somewhere.
06:18 azuroth this probably isn't the right place to ask, but anybody know any good books/resources about UI design? :x
06:19 TimToady I think most folks around here would rather just redesign the users...
06:20 azuroth hehe :-)
06:23 szbalint I wish.
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06:47 TimToady pmichaud: by the way, my pugs smoke test is failing about 222 PGE tests because of the above coredump...
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06:51 wolverian azuroth, _The Design of Everyday Things_, by Donald A. Norman
06:51 TimToady ooh, yes, good book.
06:52 TimToady "affordances".
06:52 wolverian yes. great examples. :)
06:52 azuroth thanks :-) I'm reading "the inmates are running the asylum" right now, and it interesting at least
06:52 azuroth s/it/it seems/
06:53 TimToady you'll never walk through the front door of a building without thinking about how the doors are misdesigned....
06:53 wolverian and you'll comment about those misdesigns to your friends all the time, driving them crazy
06:54 wolverian azuroth, that seems like a good book too. thanks!
06:54 TimToady and if you're a language designer, you'll wish you could figure out how to apply some of the principles...
06:55 wolverian that's interesting. have you succeeded in that?
06:55 TimToady 'bout the closest I've come is "If a language construct is doing something weird, it should *look* weird..."
06:56 TimToady sort of negative affordances, if you will
06:56 wolverian that's a good idiom for doors as well :)
06:59 TimToady and just basically pay attention to all the people on PM that say "I tried to pull this thing but I should have pushed it instead."
06:59 kattana_ ahh so thats why so many of the FOSS people look the way they do.
06:59 TimToady well, if they consider themselves language constructs, I suppose...
07:01 TimToady But I think the perception that they're trying to do something weird is part of the problem, from the point of view of the Design of Everyday Things.
07:01 TimToady What seems weird now might be an Everyday Thing pretty soon.
07:02 azuroth is 'emotional design: why we love or hate every day things' as good/on the same boat?
07:02 Kattana you make "weird" sound like a bad thing, I find it rather synonymous with "interesting".
07:02 TimToady which is why we have to ask ourselves questions like "are scan and reduce operators actually going to be used frequently?"
07:02 TimToady azuroth: dunno
07:02 webmind good morning
07:03 TimToady Kattana: I'm just attempting to point out that, while "weird" is culturally determined, the culture itself is evolving to make some weird things not-so-weird.
07:04 Kattana Of course, things on the fringe always naturaly gravitate towards the center.
07:04 TimToady In that sense, design is an art, not a science, because you have to be a futurist.
07:05 Kattana Well we are artists if the code is beautiful.
07:05 TimToady well, I dunno if there's a "the center", but things on the fringe often end up defining new centers.
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07:06 TimToady the big design problem is how to simultaneously be fringe friendly and center friendly.
07:08 wolverian oh, by the way, do we need a fold/fold1 distinction in perl6, since you can just do '($initial, @foo).reduce...'? just thinking about typing, as haskell needs the distinction.
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07:09 TimToady don't need to do that at all for operators that define an identity multi.
07:09 Kattana I take the easy way out and settle for not being friendly :)
07:10 TimToady yes, well, we've seen plenty of that kind of design in the world too.  :)
07:10 wolverian I wasn't thinking of operators, actually. just your generic :(Foo, Bar --> Foo) fold.
07:10 Kattana heh, sometimes thats the best way, if the fringe were too friendly with the center a new fringe would appear.
07:11 Kattana What we really need is a bigger mass in the center pulling stuff in, get the interesting ideas into everyday things quicker.
07:12 TimToady now I'm doing free associations with Oklahoma: "a pretty little surrey with a fringe on top".
07:12 TimToady means I should probably be in bed.
07:12 TimToady or turn the whole mess into a black hole quicker...
07:13 Kattana event horizons are interesting...
07:13 svnbot6 r10259 | scw++ | Pugs::Compiler::Rule compile_p6grammar.pl: deal with backslashed
07:13 TimToady especially cultural event horizons.
07:14 wolverian oh, well, this is sort of different than in haskell, given mmd. I have to get rid of the static mindset.
07:15 TimToady But, yes, Kattana, getting enough mass in the center to discourage random experimentation without having so much mass that you discourage useful experimentation is another way to think of the design space.
07:16 wolverian and making the mass a sphere instead of a cube..
07:16 TimToady Certainly with P6 we're trying to simultaneously provide all the hooks you might ever need, while taking away nearly all the motivation for using them.
07:17 Kattana Theres the advantage of a black hole, it would shrink the center and let the fringe stretch out in its place.
07:17 TimToady tidal effects can be difficult
07:20 Kattana hmm its also hard to get out of the black hole once you are in it.
07:20 TimToady that's not nearly as uncomfortable a problem as when your feet are already in it and your head isn't.
07:22 Kattana its harder to fix, weird and interesting things often require change and people are loath to do that most of the time.
07:22 TimToady there's a sense in which you're allowed to do weird stuff after you've established the center.
07:23 TimToady we could only work on P6 because P5 was so "centered" already.
07:23 wolverian oh hm. I don't actually see how the identity multi helps with the :(Foo, Bar --> Foo) case. I mean, you want a :(Bar, Bar --> Foo) initial call instead. which, I suppose, isn't a problem, given MMD. heh. I'm seeing the light.
07:24 TimToady well, the lights are going out here, so I'd better retire.
07:24 TimToady nite all. &
07:24 wolverian good night!
07:24 Kattana 'night.
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08:46 wolverian hm, S03 still talks about references with ===
08:48 azuroth http://www.dogthebountyhunter.com/
08:58 szbalint I wish people would stop those annoying flash detect pages...
08:58 szbalint *stop using
08:59 azuroth I'm more worried about the content than the medium. what the hell is it?! a tv show..?
09:02 szbalint well its a bit hard to worry about the content if you can't see it because of the medium. :)
09:03 azuroth good point
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09:16 ludan szbalint: http://flashblock.mozdev.org/
09:20 wolverian can you give array elements individual types? I can see subscript types in S09, but they all return the same type.
09:21 azuroth like.. tuples?
09:21 wolverian yes, except arrays.. :)
09:22 wolverian I'm just wondering what kind of a type you'd infer for @bar in: 'sub foo (*@bar) {...} foo 1, "a"'
09:22 szbalint ludan: Yes, I'm using exactly just that. :)
09:27 ludan szbalint: it's my salvation :)
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11:17 svnbot6 r10260 | scw++ | Pugs::Grammar::MiniPerl6
11:17 svnbot6 r10260 | scw++ |  * Temporary variables now available
11:17 svnbot6 r10260 | scw++ |  * MiniPerl6 spec updated
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13:09 svnbot6 r10261 | fglock++ | PCR - :ratchet update
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13:29 nothingmuch anybody got a machine where i can run perl5.005/perl5.004 ?
13:30 weinig_ joined perl6
13:31 audreyt my laptop ;)
13:31 audreyt but no, not at the moment, I neeed to crash. maybe 10hr from now
13:31 audreyt you can build 5.005_04 on feather surely?
13:32 * audreyt finds it curious that haskell.org got more than twice SoC applications than perl.org
13:32 obra . o O { Powered by PhD candidates }
13:33 audreyt indeed so
13:33 audreyt though we have our PhD candidate here (fglock) :)
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13:38 szbalint I hope though that perl.org ones were of quality, rather than quantity :)
13:39 jserv-- joined perl6
13:39 audreyt the quality are on par :)
13:39 fglock audreyt: I wish it was CS related :)
13:40 audreyt everything is CS related :)
13:40 audreyt so, the Meeting went well. I should start having slices of time on Capturizing starting tomorrow. yay.
13:40 audreyt but, sleep first :)
13:40 audreyt *wave*
13:41 Arathorn fglock: what it is it, if not CS, out of interest?
13:41 Arathorn night audreyt
13:43 fglock Arathorn: neurology - some kind of wearable wireless device to record EEG
13:45 Arathorn fglock: very cool
13:45 Arathorn a friend of mine was doing a Ph.D in a similar direction on computational neuroscience at UCSD
13:46 Arathorn (although he gave up and went to work for google :\)
13:46 szbalint interesting.
13:46 Southen joined perl6
13:47 * Arathorn tries to make an EEG once with an ancient valve-based HP oscilloscope with two probes in differential mode, and lots of electrode gel. didn't get much other than mains noise, though... ;)
13:47 fglock Arathorn: heh - I had an interview with google
13:47 justatheory joined perl6
13:49 fglock I once made an ECG using a ZX80 and lots of TTL, 741, resistors and assembler - it was very cool
13:50 Arathorn hehe, that rocks
13:52 cdpruden joined perl6
13:53 fglock good times - I had to remap the char generator to RAM, in order to draw the graphics; and the A/D converter resistors were calibrated with sand paper
13:55 Arathorn did the ZX80 even have a graphics mode?
13:55 Arathorn still, at least Z80 was a relative sane processor to hack on
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13:58 fglock Arathorn: it was char-mode only, but the char generator was in EPROM - so I changed the address to RAM and wrote some software to allocate chars to draw the pixels and lines
13:58 Arathorn lovely hack :)
14:02 fglock can I use [[+]] to force list context in a scan?
14:06 fglock OTOH, how about using [[...]] for scans, instead of the implicit context on reduce?
14:13 Juerd fglock++
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15:05 scw fglock: you added \r on eol in t/09-ratchet.t and lib/Pugs/Emitter/Rule/Perl5/Ratchet.pm ...
15:11 kolibrie scw: fglock: just run util/add-svn-props.sh on the file and checkin
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16:10 Arathorn kolibrie: doesn't that clobber history?
16:10 bernhard joined perl6
16:14 kolibrie Arathorn: I don't think so, I think it just allows newline conversions and such on checkout
16:21 Arathorn hm, i thought that as you re-check-it-in, it causes every line to change, as the repo standardises on its own canonical line ending style (i.e. \n under unix)
16:21 Arathorn and so you then have to use an external diff tool (e.g. gnu diff -b) to ignore the line endings when diffing
16:22 Arathorn at least, that's what happened to me, and i've yet to find way of working 'round it :(
16:22 particle_ it should just affect the svn properties, which are metadata
16:22 svnbot6 r10263 | fglock++ | PCR - fix t/09-ratchet.t eol - scw++
16:24 fglock scw: thanks
16:24 Arathorn how do you save the properties (given you can't set them remotely) other than committing after setting them locally, though?
16:25 * Arathorn goes looks at the util script in question
16:25 particle_ it's true, you must commit.
16:26 * Arathorn tests
16:33 pasteling "Arathorn" at 87.194.32.52 pasted "svn EOL fun" (42 lines, 1.2K) at http://sial.org/pbot/17128
16:33 Arathorn ^ particle_
16:34 Arathorn if you (or anyone else) can suggest the magic required to avoid that...
16:34 * Arathorn would love to know
16:35 PerlJam Just set svn:eol-style before you commit.
16:35 PerlJam (the first time)
16:36 Arathorn sure - but if you're correcting a file which someone committed incorrectly in the first place?
16:37 PerlJam Then ... you do what you did.
16:37 Arathorn and the history gets melted
16:37 particle_ don't think there's a way around that, unless you put a trigger on the svn server
16:37 Arathorn minging
16:37 * Arathorn nods.
16:38 Arathorn (or tell everyone to populate up their .subversion files to autoset svn:eol-type for certain extensions or mime-types, like Apache do)
16:38 PerlJam particle_: that may be a good idea.  Have it carp if the property isn't set on certain files (which you could glean from the suffix)
16:38 particle_ yep, parrot does that
16:39 particle_ pj: that is a good idea.
16:39 PerlJam particle_: make it so  ;)
16:40 particle_ my delegation skills are a perfect fit for this job ;)
16:42 meppl guten abend
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16:56 svnbot6 r10264 | fglock++ | PCR - the 'Match' class is emitter-dependent
16:59 svnbot6 r10265 | fglock++ | PCR - :ratchet creates a Pugs::Runtime::Match::Ratchet
17:08 svnbot6 r10266 | fglock++ | PCR - MANIFEST update
17:16 bernhard On 'perl Makefile.PL' I get: Could not find module `Data.Yaml.Syck': it is hidden (in package Pugs-6.2.11)
17:16 bernhard Do I need to have that installed?
17:19 szbalint joined perl6
17:26 gaal bernhard: update your source tree
17:28 bernhard No change. I already was at r10266.
17:29 theorb joined perl6
17:32 gaal weird. any chance you have some stale files around?
17:33 gaal rm Pugs.cabal for example
17:34 gaal if that doesn't work try a clean checkout
17:34 bernhard I did a 'make realclean', removed extra file shown by 'svn status'.
17:43 bernhard No change with fresh checkout.
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18:07 gaal hmm I don't know, this worksforme
18:07 aufrank scw:  ping?
18:09 PerlJam bernhard: start with ./configure
18:32 * bernhard building GHC 6.4.2
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18:44 svnbot6 r10268 | fglock++ | PCR - from/to need to be calculated in 2 steps, it seems
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19:11 svnbot6 r10269 | fglock++ | PCR - :ratchet passes 2 tests
19:12 aufrank fglock++
19:16 fglock "perl -Ilib t/09-ratchet.t | less" for some funny-looking perl6->perl5 code
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19:29 svnbot6 r10270 | fglock++ | PCR - :ratchet - 7 tests pass
19:29 aufrank fglock: when I try that I _do_ get lib in my @INC, but perl can't find PadWalker.pm
19:33 fglock aufrank: are you sure you have PadWalker installed?
19:33 fglock (it's a separate CPAN module)
19:35 aufrank probably don't ;)
19:35 * aufrank checks
19:37 fglock bbiab &
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19:50 kolibrie fglock: pretty cool looking
19:53 aufrank fglock: very cool :)
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21:11 audreyt bernhard: try
21:11 audreyt ghc-pkg unregister Pugs
21:11 audreyt first
21:11 audreyt if that helps
21:12 bernhard Looks like I had ghc 6.5, from ubuntu repos, on my Linux machine.
21:13 audreyt does ghc-pkg unregister work?
21:13 bernhard After getting ghc 6.4.0 from ubuntu repos and building 6.4.2 things look fine
21:13 * bernhard running make test
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21:15 audreyt ooh.
21:15 audreyt if you are not too deep into it, try "make smoke upload-smoke" instead :)
21:16 knewt_ is now known as knewt
21:18 bernhard About halfway trough, being optimistic
21:19 audreyt k. :)
21:21 fglock audreyt: hi
21:22 audreyt hi
21:24 fglock audreyt: PCR :ratchet generates fully inlined code - it seems to be 10x faster than the plain PCR
21:24 fglock this may be a good idea for actual p6->p5, not only rules
21:25 audreyt elaborate on the 'not only' part?
21:27 fglock there may be parts of p6 than can translate to inlined p5 code - maybe 'Int', 'Str', 'Num' for example
21:31 audreyt 'int', 'str', 'num' surely
21:31 audreyt not sure about boxed variants
21:31 audreyt maybe via autoboxing
21:31 fglock such as Int stringification could generate something like ($_ == $inf ? 'Inf' : $_)
21:31 fglock I was thinking about autounboxing :)
21:31 audreyt right. I think generally the "is inline" flag can be on the prims
21:31 audreyt nod
21:34 vell joined perl6
21:34 nothingmuch do we have a seen bot?
21:34 beppu joined perl6
21:34 audreyt seen nothingmuch
21:35 audreyt guess not
21:37 stevan_ audreyt: he is floating around,.. lemme get him for you
21:38 buu jabbot did it
21:40 fglock &
21:40 svnbot6 r10271 | fglock++ | PCR - TODO update
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21:51 audreyt nothingmuch: I've painted a porcelain dish for you :)
21:52 audreyt # http://pugs.blogs.com/photo​s/porcelain/lambdamoose.jpg
21:53 * nothingmuch hugs audreyt
21:53 * nothingmuch bounces
21:53 audreyt (there are other ones, but IrDA is really slow for getting pictures from this phone, so I'll upload them later)
21:54 * nothingmuch hugs balas too for good measure
21:54 audreyt :)))
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22:03 * bernhard Failed 41/521 test scripts, 92.13% okay. 101/9252 subtests failed, 98.91% okay.
22:04 audreyt gaal: and this one is for you :) # http://pugs.blogs.com/photos/porcelain/moose.jpg
22:05 davidfetter waht teh m0053?
22:05 davidfetter er, m00se
22:05 audreyt davidfetter: it's... the new camel
22:05 audreyt http://search.cpan.org/dist/Moose/
22:06 * davidfetter resists urge to start telling jokes about ed meese & hunter thompson
22:08 audreyt bbiab
22:24 Toaster heh, the lamdamoose rocks
22:26 nnunley Moose and Squirrel.
22:28 penk left perl6
22:28 * davidfetter pages nina
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23:32 svnbot6 r10272 | audreyt++ | * Signature.pg: brief answers to aufrank++'s Qs.
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