Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-05-12

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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01:50 aufrank audreyt: ping?
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02:09 svnbot6 r10302 | audreyt++ | * in docs/Perl6/Makefile.PL, don't propagate errors upward if LWP::Simple can't be found.
02:33 audreyt aufrank: pong
02:33 aufrank hi hi
02:33 aufrank re: your comments on whitespace in Sig.pg
02:33 audreyt gaal++ # compunit
02:34 audreyt yes?
02:34 aufrank rule bla { <subrule1> <subrule2 }
02:34 audreyt vs
02:34 aufrank is different than <subrule1><subrule2> ?
02:34 audreyt rule bla { <sr1><sr2> }
02:34 audreyt yes
02:34 aufrank ok, I thought whitespace was _always_ cosmetic in rules
02:34 audreyt rule blah {<sr1><sr2>}
02:34 aufrank I thought that was the whole assume :x thing
02:34 audreyt also means something different
02:35 audreyt that's for regexes
02:35 aufrank ok, this is good to know
02:35 audreyt regex blah { ...cosmetic... }
02:35 aufrank I thought it extended up into the "higher" forms
02:35 audreyt but rules assume :w
02:35 audreyt I mean :s
02:35 audreyt whatever
02:35 aufrank *
02:35 audreyt the effect is that spaces in them are not compiled away
02:35 audreyt they turn into <?ws>.
02:35 aufrank ok
02:36 audreyt so the way to thik about this
02:36 audreyt is to merge things that allows no space
02:36 audreyt rule blah { <sr1><sr2> }
02:36 aufrank ok, I get it :)
02:36 audreyt and sep things that must be sepped
02:36 audreyt good :)
02:37 audreyt this is all very new :)
02:37 audreyt like, this-week new
02:37 aufrank yeah, I noticed
02:37 aufrank what's your mail reading client of choice?
02:38 aufrank do you do mail and lists differently?
02:38 audreyt yes
02:38 audreyt I use thunderbird
02:38 audreyt and sometimes gmail
02:39 audreyt e.g. when I'm behind a oppressive firewall
02:39 aufrank right
02:40 aufrank and gmane for lists?  or you get all of p6* into thunderbird?
02:41 audreyt the latter
02:41 aufrank i see
02:44 aufrank and tokens don't assume :s, only :ratchet
02:44 aufrank (sorry, jumping back and forth here)
02:45 audreyt yup.
02:49 svnbot6 r10303 | audreyt++ | * inc/Module/Install/Pugs.pm now absolutize the 'subdir' section so it no longer runs 'cd ..' when actually we are two-levels deep.  This is a bug with (some versions of) MakeMaker, apparently.
02:50 audreyt ok. the win32 build errors reported by Limbic_Region appears to be a cygwin/win32 mixup
02:50 audreyt it's now fixed.
02:50 svnbot6 r10304 | audreyt++ | * docs/Perl6/Makefile.PL: test for LWP.pm before LWP::Simple.
02:50 * audreyt likes the monad shell
02:50 aufrank audreyt: I definitely agree
02:51 aufrank except that it's the Windows PowerShell now
02:51 audreyt well, yeah.
02:51 aufrank =\
02:52 aufrank using the svk 1.07 in the monad shell you can hardly tell you're stuck on a windows box ;)
02:52 aufrank the binary package, that is
02:53 audreyt what's the equiv for ^Z in the MSH?
02:53 aufrank I haven't found one
02:53 aufrank I wondered the same thign
02:53 aufrank *thing
02:59 audreyt well, that's fine
02:59 audreyt I've got screen ;)
02:59 aufrank in MSH?
02:59 audreyt # http://home.tiscali.de/emil​io.lopes/screen/screen.html
03:00 audreyt yup
03:00 aufrank wow, that's really great
03:01 aufrank I'll try it tomorrow at work :)
03:01 audreyt though it has autoflush issues
03:02 audreyt however
03:02 audreyt screen -s cmd
03:02 audreyt works just fine.
03:02 aufrank so composing subrules when the characters that make them all run together is done with token
03:02 * audreyt praises screen(1) technology
03:03 aufrank :!words is done token { <adverb> <adv_twigil> <name> }
03:04 audreyt yes.
03:04 aufrank ok, I can dig it
03:04 audreyt rule { <adverb><adv_twigil><name> }
03:04 audreyt works too, because you may want the left-right boundaries
03:04 aufrank yeah, but that's ugly ;)
03:04 audreyt I know ;)
03:04 audreyt so nvm :)
03:04 aufrank oh, good point
03:04 audreyt and it's a token for sure
03:05 audreyt just make sure the thing that calls is a rule
03:05 aufrank you'd get l-r boundaries when you composed it into something else
03:05 audreyt yup
03:05 audreyt Parsec's got ruleWs now
03:05 aufrank rule bla { <pair> }
03:05 audreyt so I should be able to handle whatevr rule/token combination you throw at me :)
03:06 aufrank ok, I'm doing adverbs in Capture.pg right now
03:06 audreyt yay
03:06 aufrank I'll fix up ws issues in Sig.pg sometime this weekend
03:07 aufrank scw mentioned that he doesn't know rules well enough to write some part of MiniPerl-- do you know what he needs a grammar for?
03:07 aufrank I'm happy to wear this hat for a while
03:07 audreyt he needs a grammar for your productions
03:08 audreyt that is the miniperl part
03:09 aufrank so this is the production part where match objects get turned into the syntactic representation?
03:09 audreyt where match objects are _annotated_ with p6ast objects.
03:09 audreyt the annotation is done with "return"
03:09 audreyt {return}
03:09 aufrank ok, that makes sense
03:09 aufrank and how tied down are p6ast objects?
03:09 audreyt and each subrule are annotated similarily
03:09 audreyt the superrule composes the subrules
03:10 audreyt for this moment, assume the Pugs "Exp" structure
03:10 audreyt we'll invent things as we go along :)
03:10 aufrank Exp ~~ / Expression / ?
03:11 audreyt (the "Exp" structure will also need tweaking to match the new calling convention. I'm taking a look at it today, and will work on it fulltime after 6.2.12)
03:11 audreyt yeah. see src/Pugs/AST/Internals.hs for the definition
03:11 audreyt also gaal's slides may help
03:11 audreyt # http://perlcabal.org/~gaal/peek/start.html
03:12 audreyt lunch -- I'll bbiab
03:12 aufrank k
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03:37 meppl gute nacht
03:37 aufrank sleep good
03:38 meppl ;)
03:38 meppl (im so drunken ;)
03:38 aufrank are there any twigils that are valid in named arguments?
03:38 meppl again
03:39 * aufrank needs to start keeping some beer around
03:39 merlyn you mean somebody drank you?
03:39 meppl no
03:39 merlyn drunken = objective form
03:39 aufrank merlyn!  Hi!  You were nice to me as a young monk about 6 years ago
03:39 merlyn I am drunken = "$(somebody) drunk me"
03:39 meppl so im silly, and drank, and i must go to work soon
03:39 merlyn I am drunk = "I have been drinking"
03:39 meppl at 10 o'clock
03:40 aufrank without you, I might be using python right now =\
03:40 meppl or 12 o'clocl
03:40 merlyn I'm sorry.  You'd probably be better off indenting. :)
03:40 merlyn Python as Guido Indented~!
03:41 aufrank I indent-- any d*mn way I want to!
03:41 aufrank oooh!  Snap!
03:41 aufrank anywya, hi :)
03:41 merlyn then there's PHP - http://tnx.nl/php.jpg
03:41 aufrank yeah, that got posted in here the other day
03:42 meppl *zZzZ
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03:50 KingDillyDilly aufrank: Today too. I don't understand the choice in background.
03:51 aufrank those are training wheels sitting on a park bench
03:51 aufrank what's not to understand?
03:51 aufrank (without a bike, to be totally clear)
03:51 KingDillyDilly I didn't even know it was a park bench. I would have put them on the ground.
03:52 wolverian hum. CPANPLUS::Dist::Deb says it might need to build debs for the dependencies of the module I am installing, but doesn't do so, and dpkg complains. augh.
03:52 aufrank I await your line of posters with bated breath
03:52 aufrank ;)
03:52 KingDillyDilly Before I knew the context and saw the caption, I thought it had something to do with the internal mouse wheels.
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03:57 wolverian hm, now it seems to be building the deps too.
03:58 aufrank audreyt: what are the restictions on the lhs and rhc of an explicit pair?
03:59 aufrank is it really just 'rule pair { [ $<key> := <expression> ] <pair_constructor> [ $<value> := <expression> ] }' ?
04:05 aufrank is there ever ambiguity between bareword lhs and nullary sub call lhs?
04:05 aufrank
04:05 aufrank sub foo { "bar" }
04:05 aufrank my $pair = foo => "baz";
04:05 aufrank if exists $pair<foo> { say $pair<foo> }
04:05 aufrank else { say $pair<bar> }
04:06 aufrank I expect that you have to use 0-ary foo() on the lhs side if that's what you mean...
04:11 aufrank new q:  what does space around grouping brackets do in the presence of :s ?
04:11 aufrank rule bla { [<foo>|<bar>] } === rule bleh { [ <foo> | <bar> ] }
04:12 aufrank I think I want :w turned off inside grouping brackets, but maybe I haven't thought through the ramifications of that
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04:29 spinclad aufrank: S02: "But C<< => >> still autoquotes any bare identifier to its immediate
04:29 spinclad left (horizontal whitespace allowed but not comments).  The identifier is not
04:29 spinclad subject to keyword or even macro interpretation."
04:29 aufrank spinclad++ # thanks!
04:30 spinclad TimToady: in S02: "But note that C<..> is not a long dot because at least one internal space
04:31 spinclad is required to differentiate from the range operator."  seems to refer to the late x. .y long dot form.
04:34 spinclad aufrank: but note a little later:     %hash = (($keykey => $keyval) => $value);   and i don't quite see how to reconcile the two passages.
04:35 aufrank spinclad: yeah, it's clear that $keykey gets interpolated into a string key, but I don't know what happens when you autoquote an anonymous pair
04:36 aufrank audreyt: any way to pull the key and value out of a flattened pair within the rule that parses the flattened pair?
04:37 spinclad ok, that could be part of it...  if we take the lhs as a qq string without the quotes but still with interpolation,
04:38 spinclad ({$keykey => $keyval} => $value) could work by {} interpolation.
04:38 spinclad (note change of inner brackets)
04:39 aufrank token flattened_pair {
04:39 aufrank    <is_flattened> <sigil> <twigil>? <name>
04:39 aufrank    : { ($<key>, $<value>) := $<#(something)>.kv } # ?
04:39 aufrank }
04:39 aufrank spinclad: that seems much cleaner to me
04:39 aufrank (your curly solution seems much cleaner, that is)
04:40 spinclad it's still not clear to me how you decide when to start and stop parsing the string, though
04:41 spinclad parse backwards from =>, how far?
04:42 aufrank spinclad: yeah, my pair parser only supports an (optionally quoted) name on the lhs
04:42 spinclad one token or {} expression, maybe
04:42 aufrank if we expand it out to a full <expression> then it's unclear what autoquoting means applied to most expressions
04:42 * KingDillyDilly runs from punctuation
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04:43 aufrank [ <block> | <open_quote>? <name> <close_quote>? ] # something like this ?
04:43 aufrank (where it's someone else job to define <block> ;)
04:44 aufrank maybe there'll be a good motivation to define a <auto-quotable>
04:44 aufrank or <qquotable>
04:44 spinclad no idea.  sounds like a dreadful backtrack, just when we thought we got rid of them all
04:44 aufrank I agree
04:45 aufrank man, those taiwanese really know how to linger over there lunches
04:45 aufrank audreyt is such a slacker!  ;)
04:45 spinclad make her work harder!
04:45 spinclad oh, wait -- that's me
04:46 aufrank my gf is getting annoyed that I now tend to hack in bed until about 2 am every night
04:47 xinming lisppaste3: url
04:47 lisppaste3 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 and enter your paste.
04:49 spinclad oh, wait...  i misread that first passage:  it says 'autoquotes any bare identifier to its left', so (<expr>) => $val is fine, and you only have to hold off on a bareword one token to tell if it's a pair or function.
04:50 aufrank much better
04:50 spinclad it feels so much saner now
04:50 aufrank perl6++
04:50 aufrank cabal++
04:51 spinclad and $keykey isn't a bareword
04:51 aufrank right
04:51 aufrank my foo example above did have barewords
04:51 aufrank but this answers that
04:52 aufrank foo => bar is always 'foo' => bar
04:52 aufrank and never foo() => bar (or &foo => bar)
04:56 spinclad 'no need to propagate confusion': who said that?
04:57 PerlJam you did.  just now  :)
04:57 spinclad oh, yeah... that was me, back then.
04:57 spinclad maybe i should listen.
04:58 aufrank I got told that after posting some cargo cult DBI code at the monastery back in the day
04:58 aufrank boy was my face red
05:06 spinclad (lack of) progress report on JudyHS: i've worked through some more ownership and readers-writers ramifications and a different possible API, but haven't coded concretely in the last couple days... ready to, now, though.  let's see how it goes.
05:07 aufrank good luck :)
05:07 spinclad and so to bed.  it's 01:00 here, early to bed for me lately.  &
05:08 aufrank gnight
05:08 spinclad g'night, all
05:08 spinclad and thx
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05:24 azurot1 I got a dumb terminal yesterday. now I need to find some cables to set it up
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06:51 svnbot6 r10305 | aufrank++ | beginnings of a parsing strategy for Perl 6 Captures
06:51 svnbot6 r10305 | aufrank++ | implements parsing of named arguments in Captures
06:51 svnbot6 r10305 | aufrank++ | contains questions (??? lines)
06:51 svnbot6 r10305 | aufrank++ | and tasks (XXX lines)
06:54 svnbot6 r10306 | aufrank++ | made some notes about the .pg files in src/Pugs/Parser/
06:54 svnbot6 r10306 | aufrank++ | includes tasks for people to go after
06:54 svnbot6 r10306 | aufrank++ | includes questions from effort so far
06:54 svnbot6 r10306 | aufrank++ | includes some references to information for future projects
06:59 aufrank http://notebook.aufrank.net​/development/p6parsing.html
06:59 aufrank online version of that readme, for anyone who's interested
07:03 svnbot6 r10307 | aufrank++ | added link to online copy of this file
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07:05 aufrank audreyt: src/Pugs/Parser/README.org is some notes I've been keeping around
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07:05 aufrank if it's not useful, feel free to give it the ax.
07:05 aufrank I can also take out the link if it's not appropriate
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07:09 aufrank ok, that's it for me for tonight
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07:39 gaal is there a publically available of the monad shell somewhere? I'd like to try
07:39 gaal (good morning!)
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11:16 Arathorn gaal: www.microsoft.com/technet/scriptcenter/topics/msh, no?
11:17 Arathorn unless you're talking about haskelly monads rather than windowsy monads
11:17 Arathorn http://www.microsoft.com/technet/sc​riptcenter/topics/msh/download.mspx, even
11:17 Arathorn stupid site
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11:23 ingy seen audreyt
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12:38 svnbot6 r10308 | pmurias++ | removed a stray [ from the capture grammar
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13:17 audreyt re :)
13:21 Arathorn morning
13:24 audreyt good localtime to you, too :)
13:28 Qiang joined perl6
13:30 Arathorn these mac book pros really are rather nice
13:31 audreyt I'm still holding out for the black macbook :)
13:31 Arathorn should be here on tuesday, if the rumours are to be believed
13:31 audreyt they said the same last tuesday...
13:31 Arathorn indeed :(
13:35 Arathorn hm, also very frustrating to use the ctrl-click idiom for right clicking if you're left handed, when there's only a left hand ctrl key
13:36 audreyt I don't usually use pointers anyway...
13:36 audreyt <- previously ion user
13:37 gaal ^^ current hand waver
13:37 gaal rehi :)
13:37 * Arathorn has used ratpoison a fair bit
13:37 Arathorn but if you're drinking the OSX kool aid...
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13:39 audreyt hand waver? :)
13:41 azuroth ion?
13:41 gaal ~Y~
13:41 audreyt http://modeemi.cs.tut.fi/~tuomov/ion/
13:41 azuroth looks interesting
13:41 audreyt what did I do to earn this hand-waver title? :)
13:42 gaal vi S??.pod
13:42 gaal :-P
13:42 gaal sorry, I'm just pulling your moose
13:42 audreyt I thought I was degaussing the waves there...
13:43 gaal yes but there was interference
13:43 audreyt ahh indeed
13:43 audreyt thanks for the reminder
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14:13 audreyt TimToady: should this be a named call?
14:13 audreyt f(('x')=>3)
14:13 audreyt currently pugs has to do rather expensive backtracking to make it into named.
14:14 audreyt instead of a "if an arg starts with left paren then it's never named" rule
14:15 Juerd I think that calculated argument names are as bad an idea as calculated gotos :)
14:15 audreyt well, but 'x'=>3 should be ok
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14:15 aufrank hey folks
14:15 audreyt constant-only keys is a good idea
14:16 Juerd Yes, but it may not be a bad idea to say that a ( makes it positional, always, regardless of where the ) is.
14:16 audreyt nod.
14:16 audreyt I'd prefer that; makes it a bit easier to explain
14:16 audreyt aufrank: hi
14:16 aufrank Juerd: (f(('x') => 3)) should be the same s as f(('x') => 3) ?
14:17 Juerd If someone must calculate, they can still use "{...}" => ...
14:17 Juerd aufrank: I don't see the relevance of your outer parens.
14:18 azuroth what about $x => 3, or $p = $x => 3; f($p) ?
14:18 aufrank you said parens make it positional no matter where they are
14:18 Juerd aufrank: I wasn't careful enough, and hoped audrey would understand what I meant.
14:18 audreyt no matter where the "right" paren is.
14:18 aufrank maybe I meant to ask about (f('x' => 3))
14:19 audreyt I think uwas precise
14:19 audreyt s/u/it /
14:19 audreyt that is, a named-arg never start with (
14:19 audreyt regardless of where the matching ) falls
14:19 aufrank I see
14:19 audreyt \(x=>1) # named
14:19 aufrank that would make some sense
14:19 audreyt \('x'=>1) # named
14:19 audreyt \(('x'=>1)) # positional
14:20 audreyt \(('x')=>1) # positional
14:20 audreyt I'd prefer that over
14:20 Juerd I still think captures shouldn't be \(), but can't think of something better :)
14:20 audreyt \(('x'=>2)=>1) # named(!)
14:20 aufrank is there a difference between *pair and *($pair) ?  is the second allowed?
14:21 audreyt no difference. yes, allowed.
14:21 aufrank ok, that's what I figured
14:21 aufrank audreyt: you don't mind my notes living where I put them in the tree for now?
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14:23 audreyt To be more specific, named arguments may never begin with C<(>:
14:23 audreyt doit 'when' => ('now');     # always a named arg doit ('when' => 'now');     # always a positonal arg doit ('when') => 'now';     # always a positonal arg
14:24 audreyt er, again:
14:24 audreyt To be more specific, named arguments may never begin with C<(>:
14:24 audreyt    doit 'when' => ('now');     # always a named arg
14:24 audreyt    doit ('when' => 'now');     # always a positonal arg
14:24 audreyt    doit ('when') => 'now';     # always a positonal arg
14:24 audreyt TimToady: sanity check for the 4 lines before I commit to S06? :)
14:24 audreyt aufrank: I don't mind at all
14:26 aufrank :)
14:27 aufrank ok, time to head in to the office
14:33 svnbot6 r10309 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Parser: Conjectural - instead of using the expensive
14:33 svnbot6 r10309 | audreyt++ |   backtacker and/or post-processor, simply rule that a named
14:33 svnbot6 r10309 | audreyt++ |   arg can never begin with a left parens:
14:33 svnbot6 r10309 | audreyt++ |     doit 'when' => ('now');     # always a named arg
14:33 svnbot6 r10309 | audreyt++ |     doit ('when' => 'now');     # always a positonal arg
14:33 svnbot6 r10309 | audreyt++ |     doit ('when') => 'now';     # always a positonal arg
14:33 svnbot6 r10309 | audreyt++ |   the behaviour of the last one is the one that's been changed.
14:33 svnbot6 r10309 | audreyt++ |   In the rare case where you'd like to make calculated names
14:33 svnbot6 r10309 | audreyt++ |   with operators looser than =>, write:
14:33 svnbot6 r10309 | audreyt++ |     doit "{f 1, 2, 3}" => 'now';
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14:42 svnbot6 r10310 | scw++ | Pugs::Compiler::Rule: change eol stype and set svn prop on some files
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15:00 svnbot6 r10311 | audreyt++ | * Fix t/subroutines/return_with_trailing_stuff.t by hard-coding calls
15:00 svnbot6 r10311 | audreyt++ |   to statement-level return() and yield() to inherit caller context,
15:00 svnbot6 r10311 | audreyt++ |   instead of forcing void context upon them.  Capturizing should render
15:00 svnbot6 r10311 | audreyt++ |   this obsolete.
15:00 audreyt bbl... &
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15:06 TimToady I think it'd make more sense to say that *only* the autoquoted form is a named argument by default, and you have to use * to make anything else into an argument.
15:06 Juerd Hmmm
15:06 TimToady but it's a pre-caffeinated think
15:07 Juerd Your reasoning is that you have to have valid identifiers anyway?
15:07 TimToady yep
15:07 Juerd Makes sense.
15:08 TimToady must wander through shower &
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16:42 aufrank hey folks
16:42 aufrank quick question:
16:43 Juerd ...
16:43 aufrank when I open a new frame with C-x 5 2, the colors I set with set-backgound-color and set-foreground color aren't applied to the new frame
16:43 Juerd Oh, there it is :)
16:43 aufrank whoops
16:43 aufrank wrong channel
16:43 * aufrank blushes
16:44 Juerd I was all excited.
16:44 aufrank I'll try to come up with one for you, Juerd ;)
16:44 * Juerd gets excited again
16:49 aufrank Juerd: think about parsing array slices
16:50 aufrank what would you want the Match object to hold when you got done parsing something like $foo[1,2,3;4;1..9] ?
16:50 aufrank (that's my question)
16:51 particle_ is ; denoting multi-dimensions?
16:52 aufrank particle_: yes
16:53 particle_ wouldn't it be a 3x1x9 array?
16:55 Juerd aufrank: I have no idea.
16:55 aufrank particle_: yes, I think it would
16:55 aufrank Juerd: me neither
16:55 aufrank ;)
16:56 particle_ aufrank, did you mean @foo, or is there a subtlety i missed?
16:56 aufrank particle_: I might have even meant @@
16:56 particle_ k
16:56 aufrank I am really fuzzy on multidim stuff right now
16:57 * particle_ thinks in 1D
16:57 particle_ if you're moving fast enough, everything looks like a line
17:03 aufrank Juerd: different question:  what are you working on these days? :)
17:04 FurnaceBoy sounds like something a particle might say :)
17:04 Ymmv joined perl6
17:04 * particle_ waves
17:05 azuroth different question: how do you find the intersection of two lines in 2d
17:06 jserv-- joined perl6
17:06 aufrank azuroth: are you teasing me?
17:06 Juerd aufrank: Not much. Mostly business stuff and watching tv. My wrists hurt almost all the time.
17:06 aufrank yargh
17:06 azuroth I'm not teasing you in that I sincerely wanted to know, if that's a sufficient question
17:06 azuroth err, answerrr
17:07 kolibrie Juerd: when I noticed my wrists were hurting, I bought a recumbent bicycle
17:07 kolibrie all fixed now
17:07 aufrank oh, I thought you were just joining in on my litany of 'different question:'s ;)
17:07 Juerd kolibrie: I haven't used my bicycle for over a year now.
17:07 azuroth it was a bit of both, aufrank
17:07 kolibrie Juerd: and you call yourself Dutch
17:07 Juerd kolibrie: I'd advise you to also try different keyboards, and a different keyboard layout if you still use qwerty.
17:08 Juerd For me, dvorak means I can use a keyboard for about twice as long
17:08 kolibrie Juerd: I've been on Dvorak for almost a year, thanks to you :)
17:08 Juerd Oh, okay :)
17:08 azuroth twice as long? that's probably ten times as long as you should be ;-)
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17:10 Arathorn tried a maltron?
17:11 particle_ azuroth? intersection of two lines... get theformulae for the lines ,and solve
17:11 particle_ iy1 = m1 * x1 + b1 (same for y2)
17:11 particle_ s/iy/y/
17:12 Juerd azuroth: No, couldn't afford one.
17:12 Juerd azuroth: So I tried the clone, Kinesis Contoured Advantage.
17:12 azuroth s/azuroth/Arathorn/ :-)
17:12 Juerd Eh, yea
17:13 Juerd I probably read only a.*th.*
17:13 Juerd Arathorn: No, couldn't afford one.
17:13 Juerd Arathorn: So I triedthe clone, Kinesis Contoured Advantage.
17:13 Juerd I'm using it now.
17:14 azuroth the 'solving' part is what gets me, particle_. I think I can find the distance from start of line to other line.. then do some funky stuff with the normal of the first line, since they form a right-angled tri?
17:14 particle_ y = m1 x + b1 = m2 x + b2
17:14 Arathorn yeah - the kinesis ones seemed the best bet to me, short of throwing $$$
17:14 particle_ given m1, m2, b1, b2, you can solve
17:15 particle_ y = 3x+2 = 4x-1 ## do these intersect?
17:15 TimToady I believe I'm about to dehuffmanize unary * and **.
17:16 particle_ whatever
17:16 particle_ :)
17:16 aufrank unary:<*> === whatever?
17:16 particle_ no
17:16 azuroth but I don't care whether they intersect, the computer does :-(
17:17 aufrank what's unary:<**>
17:17 aufrank ?
17:17 aufrank and is unary:<foo> actually written term:<foo>  ?
17:17 wolverian azuroth, Math::Intersection::StraightLine :)
17:17 TimToady prefix:<**> is the "steamroller", eager flattening like P5
17:18 aufrank prefix is the same as unary?
17:18 TimToady prefix is one form of unary
17:18 TimToady prefix is the "unmarked" form of unary
17:18 particle_ unary * looks like *(0..^7) or such
17:18 TimToady but postfix operators are also technically unary
17:18 aufrank and you're dehuffmanizing that prefix form?
17:18 particle_ lazy array interpolation
17:19 TimToady push *@args;
17:19 azuroth wolverian: :D
17:19 TimToady but it's interfering too much with * as global and * as Whatever
17:19 TimToady and I don't think we need to copy Ruby that closely here.
17:20 particle_ what's it look like expanded?
17:20 TimToady so I want some thing a little longer for *@args.
17:20 TimToady what's what look like expanded?
17:20 particle_ dehuffmanized
17:20 Juerd ***@args
17:20 TimToady :*@args perhaps
17:20 TimToady args(@args) perhaps.
17:20 particle_ *..@args
17:20 Juerd Not another colon please
17:21 particle_ mine's a sideways colon
17:21 Juerd Circumfix *** *** :)
17:21 particle_ () aren't lazy anyway?
17:21 Juerd ***@args***
17:21 Juerd Gives the expression wings
17:22 aufrank TimToady: I agree that they interfere.  When I first read S06 I posted to p6l asking what the connection was between marking global-ness and marking lazy flattening
17:22 * particle_ gives juerd a red bull
17:22 TimToady It's only *@foo because that's what Ruby uses, actually.  Well, and both Ruby and C are using * there to mean a kind of dereferencing.
17:23 ghenry joined perl6
17:23 * aufrank searches the top row of his keyboard
17:23 TimToady Yeah, been there...
17:23 particle_ can't use `
17:23 azuroth what about pipe?
17:23 TimToady still reserving that for users
17:24 TimToady *|@foo
17:24 TimToady |*@foo
17:24 particle_ yuck
17:24 TimToady need to keep the * in there, I think, so we also get **
17:24 aufrank sort of like "open up @foo"
17:24 azuroth /
17:24 TimToady :$foo already means :foo($foo), which is why :*$foo kinda means "get the name indirectly".
17:25 azuroth /(\@foo)
17:25 TimToady Did think about */@foo maybe
17:25 TimToady same reasoning
17:25 particle_ *<@foo
17:25 TimToady hmm
17:26 aufrank visual yuck
17:26 azuroth it looks like a clown. I like it
17:26 TimToady the only think I don't like about args(@foo) is that it uses up a really nice word.
17:26 aufrank also, too close to *<@foo>, whatever that would mean
17:27 azuroth _\ "un-slash"
17:27 TimToady and everything else about arguments is punctuational
17:28 particle_ swym: lazy(@foo)
17:29 aufrank vs eager(@foo)
17:29 TimToady except I think that means something else right now.
17:29 aufrank is *@foo the same as @foo is lazy?
17:29 * particle_ jumps over the lazy foo
17:29 aufrank maybe we want a generic prefix trait notation?
17:32 FurnaceBoy is now known as FB|afk
17:33 TimToady flat() and flatnow()...
17:33 particle_ now & later
17:33 TimToady backwards huffman
17:35 aufrank time for neologisms
17:35 aufrank splat and splort
17:36 TimToady did think a little about stealing unary = and == for this
17:37 aufrank those are iterator-makers now?
17:37 particle_ unary = is filehandle read?
17:37 TimToady unary = is tell iterator to iterate
17:37 aufrank we were close particle_.  points for trying ;)
17:38 TimToady but we were waffling about its meaning in list context anyway...
17:38 TimToady and $x = =$fh is really ugly.
17:38 particle_ well, aren't you basically making the array an iterator?
17:39 aufrank do we have $=foo yet?
17:40 aufrank (is there a general distinction between twigil functionality and prefix functionality?)
17:40 TimToady no, but I don't think a twigil is right for this
17:40 TimToady twigils almost always indicate weird scoping.
17:40 aufrank I see
17:42 particle_ *+@foo
17:42 aufrank TimToady: if you hadn't already grabbed @@ for multidim, I might have said @foo is passed as an array, @@foo is a lazy flattened list, @@@foo is an eager flattened list
17:43 TimToady well, I just need to let it rattle around a little more.  Mostly just wanted to give y'all a heads up to the immiment demise of * and **.
17:43 aufrank particle_: why are you flattening @foo.count ? (or whatever method returns number of elems)
17:44 TimToady hmm.  [,] is an interesting idea.
17:44 aufrank how to you eagerize it?
17:44 TimToady eager as a list operator.
17:45 TimToady The one niggly little thing about [,] is that it would have to be a list operator.
17:45 TimToady so you'd have to say [,](@foo), @bar to not apply it to @bar
17:46 TimToady that might not be a showstopper.
17:46 FB|afk is now known as FurnaceBoy
17:46 TimToady and [,] is *very* recognizably metasyntactic.
17:46 aufrank is there a way to hyper op it?
17:47 TimToady eh?  list operators are naturally somewhat hyperopey
17:47 aufrank I'm wondering about a @foo>>infix:<,> or something
17:48 aufrank to eliminate the (@foo), @bar restriction
17:48 kolibrie I can immediately see what [,](@foo) means, compared with some of the other ideas just brainstormed
17:48 particle_ i assume list context is for all reduction ops. good idea to add a (@foo), @bar example to S03
17:48 aufrank I like [,] as well
17:48 TimToady hmm @foo.[,] almost works
17:49 TimToady @foo.[*] already means something though.
17:49 particle_ ., method postfix?
17:49 TimToady too invisible.
17:49 TimToady idea is, can we put a reduce on the right end of @foo
17:50 particle_ (@foo)[,]
17:50 particle_ :)
17:50 ruz joined perl6
17:50 aufrank with [,]@foo, how do you do:
17:50 aufrank    push @foo, @bar;
17:50 aufrank    push *@foo, @bar;
17:50 aufrank    push **@foo, bar;
17:50 aufrank ?
17:50 TimToady push @foo, @bar;
17:50 TimToady push [,](@foo), @bar;
17:50 TimToady push [,](eager @foo), @bar;
17:51 particle_ could the third be push [,], @foo, @bar ??
17:51 particle_ too many commas
17:51 particle_ push [,] @foo, @bar
17:51 aufrank is the middle the same as push [,](lazy @foo), @bar ?
17:52 TimToady lazy is the unmarked condition in list context already.
17:52 TimToady I don't think the third can be eagerified by including @bar in the args list.
17:53 TimToady the args list itself is still lazy.
17:53 particle_ good, because it's visually indistinct otherwise
17:53 TimToady push [,] @foo, eager @bar would work though
17:53 particle_ the parens tend to disappear in my in-head parser
17:54 FurnaceBoy is now known as FB|afk
17:54 TimToady but I think 90% of the time we'll just see "foo [,]@args;"
17:54 PerlJam um ... is [,] meant to replace flattening * ?
17:55 TimToady Yes, I'm trying to dehuffmanize prefix:<*>
17:55 TimToady and prefix:<**>
17:55 PerlJam why exactly?  Wrong huffmanization?
17:55 TimToady because it's too overloaded with GLOBAL:: and Whatever.
17:56 TimToady and *foo() is visually ambiguous as to whether it means GLOBAL::foo() or *(foo())
17:56 Arathorn is now known as Aragone
17:56 TimToady I've been going back and forth in my copy of S06 about it, and getting unhappier and unhappier with borrowing * straight from Ruby
17:57 TimToady And I actually think the flattener is going to be fairly rare in common practice.
17:57 PerlJam ruby uses * to flatten too?
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17:57 TimToady That's where I stole^H^H^H^H^Hborrowed the idea from.
17:58 TimToady Ruby needs it far more often than Perl because Ruby doesn't actually believe in list context, I think.
17:59 aufrank thinks on my keyboard that look flat: - = _ | [ ]
17:59 TimToady and because Ruby threw away the $/@ distinction.
17:59 aufrank s/thinks/things/
17:59 PerlJam so does that mean that * in sigs gets replaced too?
17:59 TimToady no.
17:59 TimToady that's a different *
17:59 TimToady that's still a "globby" star.
17:59 aufrank that's a slurpy star
18:00 TimToady not a deref star
18:00 aufrank right
18:00 TimToady I think I really like [,] for it's meta-clarity.
18:00 particle_ ship it!
18:00 * PerlJam trolls the example code in pugs looking for flattening *
18:00 TimToady And for it's you-don't-have-any-clue value in alerting people that something strange is going on.
18:01 TimToady It'll be hard to find, but look for * followed by a sigil.
18:01 PerlJam yeah, it's proving difficult :)
18:02 aufrank so how are these two different?
18:02 TimToady and almost all of those will be slurpy stars
18:02 aufrank    push (@foo), @bar;
18:02 aufrank    push [,](@foo), @bar;
18:02 PerlJam TimToady: yep.
18:03 TimToady push (@foo), @bar is identical to push @foo, @bar
18:03 TimToady parens are just used for grouping (mostly)
18:05 aufrank @foo is in list context as the first argument of push, even without the parens
18:05 PerlJam and push [,]@foo, @bar  is like push @foo[0], @foo[1..*], @bar;  ?
18:05 TimToady we'd give [,] the extra little semantic push of dereferencing its argument
18:05 TimToady PerlJam, yes
18:06 TimToady As with any reduce, it pretends it wrote it out that way.
18:06 TimToady so I guess it doesn't really need extra "push"
18:06 TimToady it just means that already.
18:06 PerlJam and ** has become a keyword "eager"?
18:06 TimToady gotta go to work...
18:07 TimToady so it would seem
18:07 PerlJam things that happen so soon don't seem to fit well (in my head) with all lowercase keywords
18:08 TimToady soon?
18:09 TimToady you think it should be a Monad or something?
18:09 PerlJam flattening now rather than as needed moves along my time-axis to "sooner"
18:09 TimToady it's just the default in P5...
18:10 TimToady so "eager" from that perspective is already shouting...
18:10 particle__ joined perl6
18:10 PerlJam But when I'm on #perl6, I'm not a perl5 programmer  :-)
18:11 TimToady of course not, which is why I had to qualify what a said...
18:11 TimToady I think we both have a tremendous grasp of the obvious... :)
18:11 PerlJam heh
18:12 PerlJam So ... any clue when the language details will settle down a bit?  (Is that even a question that makes sense?)
18:12 * particle__ guesses by christmas
18:12 TimToady well, really gotta commute.  Language will settle down for the next 15 minutes or so... :)
18:12 PerlJam particle__: that would have been my guess as well :)
18:13 TimToady biab &
18:13 particle__ 0..^xmas # infinite list
18:15 gaal Arathorn: thanks for the link
18:21 azuroth leet. I know whether a convex poly contains a given line segment
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20:50 aufrank did [,](@foo) get blessed?
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21:18 TimToady aufrank: working on it, and seeing what the ramifications are.
21:19 aufrank fun :)
21:19 aufrank I'll keep an eye out for news from this sector
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21:38 FB|afk is now known as FurnaceBack
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21:52 FurnaceBack is now known as FurnaceBoy
21:55 TimToady okay, I've whacked * and **.  Let the fur fly...
21:56 rashakil left perl6
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22:00 TimToady hmm, p6l seems to have choked on the updates...
22:01 rashakil left perl6
22:01 TimToady maybe the svnbot was using * or **?  :)
22:04 arcady uh oh. what happened to * and **?
22:04 PerlJam When did that back slash thing happen for a listy reduce?
22:04 TimToady only the prefix versions.  they caught bird flu and died.
22:05 * PerlJam misses all the good stuff
22:05 TimToady just now
22:05 TimToady [\X] should probably have been marked conjectural...
22:06 PerlJam TimToady: Well, I decided I liked it rather quickly, so it can't be too bad :)
22:06 TimToady has anyone else seen the updates in p6l yet?
22:06 TimToady maybe perl.org is boycotting wall.org now.  :)
22:07 PerlJam I'm looking at it now (obviously)
22:07 rashakil joined perl6
22:07 particle_ what does All(*) give?
22:07 TimToady well, you could have checked it out from svn. :)
22:07 PerlJam TimToady: true, but no, I'm reading p6l.
22:08 TimToady hmm, I wonder what's up with my mail.
22:08 PerlJam oops, gotta go pick up my son
22:08 * PerlJam &
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22:14 pmichaud TimToady: I've seen the p6l post.  I'm fine with whacking * and **
22:15 pmichaud particle_: do you think you'll get to the \x, \o, \d items soon?
22:15 particle_ you just can't wait, can you ;)
22:16 particle_ finished my work and chores, looking at it now
22:16 pmichaud I want to prove that  "\xc5" ~~ /<alpha>/ works :-)
22:16 particle_ :)
22:17 particle_ i want to see $x = 5; $x ~~ 5; works
22:17 pmichaud nope, haven't implemented that one yet
22:17 particle_ i know :)
22:17 particle_ i have tests for the \x\d\o locally, so i'll be coding to those now
22:17 FurnaceBoy_ joined perl6
22:18 pmichaud okay, great
22:20 drrho joined perl6
22:23 gaal TimToady:
22:23 gaal (string) context.  You can force list context on the expression using
22:23 gaal -either the C<*> or C<list> operator if necessary.
22:23 gaal +either the C<list> operator if necessary.
22:23 gaal using either the C<list> operator
22:23 gaal ?
22:26 gaal is this valid?  [-> {$^a+$^b}] @list
22:26 gaal (anonymous ops)
22:27 TimToady no.
22:27 TimToady only declared infix: ops
22:27 TimToady otherwise it's completely ambiguous with [1,2,3] composer
22:27 gaal okay. but reduce lambda works, of course yes?
22:28 TimToady sure.
22:28 dolmen joined perl6
22:28 gaal good, I was doing a double take because for a minute I saw [\ ] and was thinking in haskell
22:28 gaal probably time to go to bed
22:29 TimToady I wondered if some people might see a lambda there...
22:30 gaal [\] in haskell would be a singleton list of some function. fun. night :)
22:30 TimToady sweet dreams
22:31 FurnaceBoy_ joined perl6
22:31 pmichaud particle:
22:31 pmichaud p6> my $x = 5; if $x ~~ 5 { say "ok"; }
22:31 pmichaud ok
22:31 pmichaud p6> my $x = 'abc';  if $x ~~ 'abc' { say 'ok'; }
22:31 pmichaud ok
22:31 pmichaud happy?
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22:33 particle_ my $x = 5; my $y = 5; if $x ~~ $y { say "ok"; }
22:33 particle_ invoke() not implemented in class 'Integer'
22:33 * particle_ pushes pmichaud
22:33 pmichaud did you svn up?
22:33 particle_ yep
22:34 particle_ pmichaud++ for the string and numeric smart match
22:34 pmichaud p6> my $x = 5; my $y = 5; if $x ~~ $y { say 'ok'; }
22:34 pmichaud ok
22:34 pmichaud did you 'make'?
22:34 particle_ yep, make test
22:34 pmichaud hmmm, it works on my box
22:34 particle_ i'll clean
22:34 pmichaud just add a test :-)
22:36 TimToady I noticed my last smoke failed all its rule tests.  recompiling to see if it was transient...
22:37 TimToady the smoker on feather seems to have worked better, so maybe it's an embedded/external thing.
22:39 particle_ i'll rebuild parrot...
22:40 TimToady hmm, I'm getting user error (no tag found)
22:40 TimToady pugs: user error (no tag found)
22:40 gaal uh, I just realized that you can't scan with reduce after this change
22:41 gaal so we probably need to rename it to fold and add a scan function?
22:41 particle_ pm: passing now
22:41 gaal back to sleep &
22:42 ludan joined perl6
22:42 particle_ pm: subs next? i wanna import the pugs test suite pronto
22:43 pmichaud p6> if (3,4,5) ~~ 4 { say 'ok'; }
22:43 pmichaud ok
22:45 pmichaud particle_: yes, subs are soon on the list.  I might do regex/rule first
22:45 pmichaud I'd like to have subs done by #parrotsketch
22:46 TimToady I'm not sure that one should be okay.
22:48 TimToady probably about time to glare at the smartmatch table again...
22:49 TimToady embedded still fails.  time for realclean...
22:51 pmichaud ?eval (3,4,5) ~~ 4
22:51 evalbot_10299 is now known as evalbot_10311
22:51 evalbot_10311 user error (no tag found) Bool::False
22:52 TimToady maybe it's not just embedded...
22:52 pmichaud ?eval my @x = (3,4,5);  @x ~~ 4
22:52 evalbot_10311 user error (no tag found) Bool::False
22:52 TimToady my world, and welcome to it.
22:52 pmichaud heh
22:52 pmichaud np
22:53 pmichaud ?eval "\xc5" ~~ /<alpha>/
22:54 evalbot_10311 user error (no tag found) Match.new(   ok => Bool::True,    from => 0,    to => 1,    str => "\197",    sub_pos => (),    sub_named =>     { "alpha" =>         Match.new(           ok => Bool::True,            from => 0,            to => 1,            str => "\197",            sub_pos => (),            sub_named => {}         )     } )
22:56 arcady joined perl6
22:56 particle_ no tag found???
22:57 particle_ crap. i messed up my tests.
22:57 * particle_ repeats, "save first, commit second."
22:58 pmichaud gotta go pick up the kids -- later, all
22:59 rorx i read through the pugs docs.. but I'm still not clear.. is it an just implementation of p6 done in Haskell? Will perl6 actually use pugs in any way, or is it more of a proof of concept?
22:59 TimToady Perl 6 is a language, not an implementation.  It'll use anything that runs it.
23:00 rorx TimToady: I see.. so that's different than perl5 then right?
23:00 DaGo joined perl6
23:00 TimToady The intent is not to require people to download Haskell though.
23:00 TimToady yes, it's specs and test suite.
23:00 rorx so the perl folks won't have some official "perl6 runtime", just a specification and leave it to others to implement it?
23:01 TimToady well, they may have that too, if parrot gets its act together.
23:01 * pmichaud is working to get parrot's act together.
23:01 TimToady I thought pmichaud is picking up kids...
23:02 pmichaud I'm multitasking :-)
23:02 aufrank pmichaud++
23:02 pmichaud even time afk is spent thinking about perl6 on parrot :-|
23:02 particle_ pm: i broke perl6, i'll fix
23:03 rorx TimToady: so what the official perl6 will look like is still a bit unkwown? maybe that's what's confusing me. And parrot, I assume it one part of the solution.
23:03 particle_ however, i haven't broken it as frequently as timtoady has :)
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23:04 * particle_ points rorx to the perl6 docs: http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/synopsis.html
23:04 rorx or is parrot analogous to pugs, being a full implementation of perl6..
23:04 aufrank the official perl6 will probably have green eyes
23:04 particle_ do pythons have green eyes?
23:04 TimToady rorx: the specs evolve as the implementations point out problems.
23:04 rorx particle_: thanks
23:05 TimToady would you like to help?
23:05 TimToady I'm sure audreyt will pop up at any moment and offer you a commit bit...
23:06 particle_ ...did you see the bit about the committed perl6 developer?
23:06 rorx Well I'm just a perl5 user that's curious about the future.
23:07 TimToady guess, what, that describes most of us...
23:07 TimToady just some of us are curious enough about the future to try to ask leading questions... :)
23:08 rorx yeah, it sounds like it's still work in progress, at least what the runtime will look like.
23:09 TimToady At the moment we're basically in the bootstrap era.  Within a month or two we should have a Perl 6 compiler written in Perl 6.
23:09 aufrank rorx: parrot is a virtual machine, like the JVM or the CLR, which is being designed to be good at hosting dynamic languages
23:09 aufrank perl 6 and perl 5 are examples of languages that parrot will hopefully be good at hosting
23:09 SamB it is actually designed?
23:09 SamB it has so many opcodes!
23:10 aufrank early on, the plan was that the reference implementaion of perl 6 would be on parrot
23:10 aufrank (I think)
23:10 rorx aufrank: that's what I was wondering.
23:12 aufrank right now pugs and parrot are informing each other as they try to figure out how to implement the current perl 6 spec
23:12 rorx aufrank: I see.
23:12 TimToady pugs is a top-down approach, while parrot is bottom up.  They're relatively complementary.
23:13 TimToady there's sort of a friendly race to see who gets to the middle first.
23:13 rorx so a different group (ie, not pugs) is working on the perl6 compiler that will target the "parrot IL" whatever it may be called?
23:13 TimToady kinda like the first transcontinental railroad in the U.S.
23:14 aufrank yeah, but like I said, there's some overlap
23:14 feng joined perl6
23:14 aufrank a lot of crosstalk
23:14 TimToady not to be confused with cross talk.
23:14 particle_ rorx: it's called PIR "parrot intermediate language"
23:14 rorx ah, thanks.
23:15 rorx I saw something about PIL, but I guess that's only applicable to pugs.
23:15 aufrank rorx: and there approximately a billion intermediate layers between perl 6 source code and PIR
23:15 TimToady give or take a trillion
23:16 rorx i see
23:16 particle_ not really for the parrot impl: perl 6 -> parse -> past -> post -> pir
23:17 particle_ where right now the parser, past, and post compilers are written in... pir.
23:24 rorx particle_: I see, thanks.. making more sense now.
23:25 TimToady pugs view of reality is of course somewhat different.
23:25 particle_ poit.
23:28 rorx so besides Perl6, have any other languages expressed any interest to targetting the Parrot VM?
23:29 particle_ there are many languages in various states of completion
23:29 TimToady the most active currently are Tcl and Scheme, i think.
23:29 SamB but te languages aren't very articulate in themselves
23:29 particle_ and apl, and perl1
23:29 SamB er, the.
23:30 SamB how do you even write APL?
23:30 particle_ it's all in the wrist ;)
23:30 SamB or store it
23:30 particle_ parrot supports unicode if built with icu libs
23:30 SamB ick, unicode...
23:30 particle_ needless to say they're required for apl. but, they are for perl6, too
23:31 SamB unicode is well and good for some things, but the handling of strange characters is not great
23:31 SamB especially strange characters that are related to other characters and should match them in appearence
23:33 TimToady still getting stupid yaml errors...
23:43 gaal TimToady: where do you get them?
23:45 TimToady t/rules/*.t mostly, I think.
23:46 TimToady tried removing *.pm.yml but that didn't help.
23:47 gaal in blib6/lib/?
23:49 TimToady yes, those.
23:49 gaal it's working for me :/
23:50 gaal hmm, did you install pugs ever on this machine? another .yml in your @INC?
23:52 TimToady reinstalling pugs doesn't seem to make any difference.
23:53 gaal strace ./pugs t/failing/test | grep .yml     ?
23:58 TimToady okay had an old Test.pm.yml out there.
23:58 gaal arg.
23:59 TimToady works after I did rm /usr/lib/perl6/site_perl/Test.pm.yml
23:59 TimToady was dated May 4.
23:59 PerlJam TimToady: as in parrot-land, I've heard that things work better if you don't do "make install"

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