Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-05-17

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:16 aldre what should I have for make_arg, and make_install_arg on windows?..In cpan
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00:50 nothingmuch Juerd: if you're still here, I forgot something
00:50 nothingmuch much like liskov the 'does role' question implies about an interface
00:51 nothingmuch i.e. just because it's the same method name doesn't mean it does the same thing, expects the same arguments, etc
00:51 nothingmuch the idea is to normally only do roles in the lower classes on the class hierarchy
00:51 obra_work is now known as obra
00:52 nothingmuch e.g. URI is a base class, you can find out what kind it is, and the things that *ALL* URIs have
00:53 nothingmuch and then you can find out about sub-behavior (like, if it's a http:// uri then it must have a host, etc)
00:53 nothingmuch think IO::Seekable being a role, and IO being a base class (read, write, etc), and IO::Pipe being a subclass, and IO::File being another subclass that does IO::Seekable
00:54 nothingmuch the only difference between manic multiple inheritence and role composition in this respect is the symmetry of the composition - overriding things is in general not OK, you have to be explicit
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06:37 ludan hi
06:40 arcady hello
06:41 gaal hi. I got a report that pugs breaks when you upgrade parrot. the scenario is slightly old pugs, parrot 0.4.3 -> 0.4.4 upgrade w/o pugs upgrade, so resolving fails because pugs is linked against 0.4.3 specifically.
06:41 gaal is parrot backwards compatible? is there something we can do about this, if it is?
06:53 spinclad pugs seems to link against libparrot.so.N.N.N, which disappears with the new parrot release
06:54 spinclad and i think parrot is likely to be incompatible from release to release these days
06:55 spinclad so then you'd have to relink pugs against the new libparrot anyway
06:56 spinclad but if you keep your old libparrot around (installed, say) you'd be ok
06:56 spinclad but old
06:57 bsb I think keeping the old parrot lib causes other problems
06:57 bsb for parrot itself
06:58 bsb that may be fixed by now...
06:58 spinclad don't think so, they've hit people quite recently
06:58 spinclad "don't install parrot"
06:59 spinclad and live with this problem
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07:01 gaal < spinclad> and i think parrot is likely to be incompatible from release to release these days
07:01 gaal spinclad: question is, does it break backwards compatibility
07:02 spinclad my impression is it's likely to.
07:02 gaal it's probably a fair answer to say "yes, these things are in development"
07:02 gaal okay, thanks.
07:03 spinclad the opcode list still gets reworked now and then, for example
07:06 spinclad namespace work, and such
07:07 spinclad i think chip aims to keep some stability at some levels (PIR, say), but i don't think the ABI has been stable between releases much yet.
07:08 spinclad (speaking as a kibitzer only, of course)
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10:23 ingy `_`
10:25 meppl guten morgen
10:26 ingy *_*
10:27 ingy o_O
10:27 meppl good morning ingy
10:27 meppl :D
10:27 ingy hola meppl
10:27 ingy `_` <- the Spirit Ingy
10:28 ingy aka the Elk Spirit
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15:11 Limbic_Region has there really been nothing said for nearly 3 hours?
15:11 TimToady maybe there was nothing worth saying...
15:12 TimToady personally, though, I just woke up.
15:12 Limbic_Region well, I use a fairly unreliable IRC client that doesn't make it obvious when connection is dropped
15:12 Limbic_Region wasn't sure if I was a zombie or not
15:12 obra I see n0othing in 5 hours
15:13 TimToady 8 hours if you discount the ingy reach-out-and-touch meppl
15:14 TimToady was it something I said?  :)
15:14 obra Heh.
15:14 obra The DBIv2 comments from tbunce this morning are interesting.
15:14 meppl what?
15:15 meppl timtomorrow
15:15 obra "DBIv2 is going to be an evolution, not a revolution. DBD:: v2 is going to be JDBC"
15:15 FurnaceBoy meppl is a reliable ping.
15:15 * Limbic_Region wonders if the removal of a new API as a specific goal is a good thing or not
15:15 * obra wonders how quickly we could bootstrap new drivers with DBIv2 + something like Inline::Java or JPL
15:16 obra (Having not looked at JPL since it was first introduced, I don't even remember if it's the right glue)
15:16 theorbtwo I don't think JPL is maintained.
15:16 ruoso it seems that Import::Java is the big thing now
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15:17 ruoso s/Import::Java/Java::Import/
15:17 TimToady It should be a lot easier to do multi-language hacks in P6.  The interesting question is how much easier it will be to borg all the APIs of the world.
15:18 * FurnaceBoy thinks world domination was TT's secret plan all along!
15:18 obra *nod*
15:18 obra "NCI is dead. Long live {Perl,Polyglot}CI"
15:19 ruoso TimToady, indeed... a lot of hacks will be needed to make Java Vector be seens as a List in Perl 6 and vice-versa...
15:19 TimToady "He who wishes to be the greatest among you must become the servant of all".  I just wish to service all the APIs of the world. :)
15:19 TimToady well, most of 'em.
15:19 rgs glue++
15:21 wolverian it probably won't make much sense to copy java-style class trees directly, now that we have roles and such.
15:22 ruoso wolverian, but how will you interact bidirectionally if you don't?
15:22 ruoso some Java method expects a java.util.Collection as a parameter
15:23 ruoso how will you call this method just with (1,2,3)
15:24 theorbtwo Seq does java:java::util::Collection
15:24 wolverian I presume with the Array as java::util::Collection method. isn't that what coercion is for? in any case, I wasn't talking specifically about interacting with Java, sorry.
15:24 ruoso theorbtwo, java.util.Collection is just an interface...
15:25 ruoso theorbtwo, not an implementation
15:26 wolverian I guess I'm saying that I don't want perl6's own things to be polluted by Java-ish notions.
15:26 ruoso wolverian, I agree with that...
15:26 * particle_ pings ingy
15:27 ruoso wolverian, but I must recognize that being able to interact with two different language is an important feature of Perl 6
15:27 theorbtwo So make the first time somebody mentions a java:foo module automagically load Interop::Java, which makes Seq do java::util::Collection.
15:27 wolverian I thought that was parrot's goal, not perl6's
15:27 theorbtwo (And java interfaces, I think, are clearly perl6 roles.)
15:28 ruoso theorbtwo, not exactly, roles have implementations
15:28 ruoso java interfaces are just method signatures
15:28 ruoso wolverian, at low level, yes... but at API level...
15:28 ruoso theorbtwo, but the Interop::Java seems like a goog idea
15:29 wolverian ruoso, right. I hope it can be done with runtime coercion.
15:29 wolverian (or by changing the class's composition at runtime)
15:29 theorbtwo Roles /can/ have /default/ implementations.
15:29 ruoso theorbtwo, ok... but if it doesn't... what happens when the mathod is called?
15:30 theorbtwo *splat*
15:30 ruoso but your solution is fine...
15:31 ruoso Interop::Java will make "Seq does Interop::Java::util::Collection"
15:32 theorbtwo (I don't actually know Java well enough to know if that should be Seq or Array.  Come to think of it, it's probably Array.)
15:32 wolverian List should probably be Seq. or Iterable? I forgot. Java's containers are very finely grained
15:32 FurnaceBoy is now known as FB|afk
15:32 ruoso arrays in java are much less used than Collection
15:32 ruoso because they're extremely poor
15:33 ruoso it wouldn't help much to have Seq mapped to Array
15:33 theorbtwo No, I meant perl6's Array, not Java's.
15:33 ruoso ah...
15:33 ruoso sure...
15:33 wolverian right, me too.
15:33 TimToady If there's a large impedance mismatch, perhaps we should be looking at some kind of MMD solution.
15:34 TimToady use P6's strengths to hide Java's weaknesses...
15:34 wolverian yes please :)
15:34 ruoso TimToady, I think much Perl6 code will be needed to use Java inside Perl 6 efficiently...
15:34 ruoso to map one API to another
15:35 ruoso the problem is that Java have a HUUUGE API
15:35 wolverian possibly we should wait for the next Java to clean it up..
15:35 ruoso wolverian, most people are still working with java 1.4.2
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15:36 wolverian well, pity the fools.
15:37 bjoern_ Is there a Str that can be passed as first argument to open() so it opens stdout? LWP::Simple::getprint uses '' but that doesn't work for me... I take it $*OUT is stdout but that's not a Str...
15:37 ruoso wolverian, Java is an interpreted language that is very strict on API changes...
15:38 ruoso it's painfull to turn a running system to one version to another
15:38 wolverian Java is not interpreted in the way that TCL is. :)
15:39 ruoso if some method returns void and then starts to return something you get a enigmatic VerifyError
15:40 TimToady that's just the old "you've violated security but we're not going to tell you what you did wrong because that would give you more info."
15:41 TimToady covert channel analysis and all that...
15:41 ruoso that's why most people keep with java 1.4
15:42 TimToady if P6 is to scale into the real world, we do need to keep track of its ability to be secured, even if we're not interested in that ourselves.
15:42 wolverian egh, this Samsung phone has a terrible UI. it takes *six* clicks to send an SMS once you've written it
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15:51 TimToady Given the negative example of Java, I'm now wondering what we can do with our module version numbers.
15:51 TimToady we can already specify which version we want.
15:51 TimToady but on the other end, a module needs to be able to specify how it can emulate older versions.
15:52 * ruoso thinks in the dependency model in debian packages
15:52 TimToady there needs to be some kind of declaration at the top to that effect.
15:52 TimToady and then you have to be able to write "given $?DBA { when v1.2.3 {...}} etc.
15:52 ruoso module Foo; version X; provides Y; conflicts: Z;
15:53 TimToady the actual version is baked into the module declaration itself.
15:53 TimToady module Foo-1.2.4-RUOSO can emulate v1.2.3;
15:55 theorbtwo It sounds workable if those can be ranges of versions.
15:55 ruoso can I say "can emulate <= v1.2.3"?
15:55 theorbtwo can emulate { $_ <= v1.2.3 } ?
15:55 TimToady the 1.2.4 can't be, but the other should probably use the same syntax as "use" version ranges.
15:56 TimToady though a 1.2..* should probably be capped at 1.2.4 for obvious reasons.
15:57 theorbtwo I'm tempted to say "if you write that, you deserve what you get", but since this /is/ the mechnisim for fixing old stupid releases...
15:58 TimToady whether you want to emulate older versions depends mainly on whether your module uses resources that need exclusive access.
15:58 TimToady if there's no exclusive access, you can just do ordinary file versioning.
15:58 TimToady but if different versions are going to have to share a single dbhandle, for instance...
15:59 TimToady then you need to be able to emulate old APIs
15:59 theorbtwo Well, when doing a bugfix release, you want to move users who ask for the old version onto the new version.
16:00 TimToady assuming it actually works the same except for the bugs...
16:00 ruoso can I say "module Foo-1.2.4 cannot emulate v1.2.1"? or is it implicit?
16:00 TimToady I'd think that would be implicit.
16:00 theorbtwo That is, that not being able to emulate is the default.
16:00 TimToady on the user's side, if they say 1.2.3, it gets 1.2.3 only
16:01 ruoso so the "can emulte < 1.2.4" is needed when there is no incompatible changes
16:01 ruoso s/emulte/emulate/
16:01 TimToady if they've asked for 1.2.3..* then they're willing to be upgraded.
16:01 theorbtwo Well, you probably want can emulate 1.2.0..1.2.4
16:01 theorbtwo Hm, I'd rather have willingness to upgrade to compatable versions be the default.
16:01 TimToady if they've said 1.2, then any 1.2.* is fine.
16:01 TimToady ohh, maybe there's another Whatever...
16:02 theorbtwo Doesn't saying 1.2 mean you want version 1.2, not 1.2.3?
16:02 TimToady 1.2.3 is a version of 1.2
16:02 TimToady if you want 1.2.0, you ask for that.
16:02 ruoso you're forcing a versioning schema...
16:02 TimToady if you ask for v6 of Perl, you don't mind 6.1
16:03 theorbtwo G'point.
16:03 TimToady We're forcing precision, yes.
16:03 TimToady or imprecision, as the case may be.
16:04 theorbtwo We're forcing people to say what they really mean.
16:04 TimToady and we could certainly say that if a module only claims to be 1.2, that 1.2.0 matches it.
16:04 theorbtwo Something tells me that we can't get it quite right without knowing the versioning scheme of the module, but I'm not quite sure.
16:05 ruoso theorbtwo, that's my point...
16:05 ruoso that depends on the maintainer
16:05 TimToady I think versioning schemes will tend toward at least 3 parts simply becuase 1.2 looks too much like a Num.
16:06 ruoso thinking on a user's perspective...
16:06 TimToady and if we say that the abstract value of 1.2 is the same as 1.2.0.0.0.0... then it seems to work out as far as ordering goes.
16:06 ruoso while writing an app
16:06 ruoso I see module Bar is in version 1.2.3
16:06 ruoso so I say: use Bar v1.2.3;
16:06 TimToady Bar-1.2.3 but go ahead
16:06 theorbtwo I think it'll go to three parts because both linux and perl do it that way.
16:07 ruoso the Bar maintainer will need to say: module Bar-1.2.4 can emulate v1.2.3 for every  version bump without incompatible changes?
16:07 TimToady only if there's a shared resource.
16:07 TimToady otherwise you just keep the old version around and use that
16:07 ruoso but you have a bugfix in the new release
16:08 ruoso it's compatible
16:08 TimToady bugfixes don't count
16:08 TimToady that v1.2.3.1
16:08 TimToady and 1.2.3 still matches it.
16:08 ruoso hmmm...
16:08 theorbtwo TimToady: Bugfixes are a very important use case for this that we should consider.
16:08 theorbtwo Is a bugfix for v1.2.3.1 then v1.2.3.1.1?
16:08 ruoso and what if I release a new version with new features and bugfixes
16:08 ruoso and I call it 1.2.4
16:08 TimToady certainy, that's not the meaning of "don't count" I was meaning.
16:09 ruoso but it fix some bugs for 1.2.3 also
16:09 TimToady you can choose to emulate 1.2.3 anyway.
16:09 TimToady but if you say you emulate, you have responsibilities to actually do so for non-bugs
16:09 ruoso sure
16:10 ruoso I'm talking about backward-compatible versions
16:10 TimToady given $?USEDASVERSION {...}
16:10 theorbtwo If I say use 1.2.3, and we have installed a 1.2.3 and a 1.2.4 can emulate 1.2.3, which do I get?
16:10 ruoso theorbtwo, that's the point...
16:10 ruoso why would I have 1.2.3 and 1.2.4 installed at all?
16:11 TimToady if you install a 1.2.4 that claims to emulate 1.2.3, it clobbers 1.2.3, I suspect.
16:11 TimToady but that maybe be site policy
16:11 ruoso hmm
16:11 * ruoso going for lunch
16:12 TimToady Now in most people's theory, 1.2.4 should be backward compatible anyway with 1.2.3
16:12 theorbtwo TimToady: Great, that was what I was hoping you'd say.
16:13 theorbtwo Probably, yeah.  I still think we should make the author say so.
16:13 TimToady but same arguments hold at 1.2 to 1.3
16:15 TimToady biab
16:17 wolverian should perl look at the signatures of the methods/functions and note differences between versions that promise compatibility?
16:19 TimToady MMD based on versions?
16:20 particle_ brr.
16:20 wolverian hum. that .. is interesting
16:20 particle_ api version adverb?
16:21 particle_ (optional, of course)
16:21 particle_ but could be used for specifying which module version to use for a sub call in case of conflick
16:21 particle_ *conflict
16:26 theorbtwo I don't think we should mix-and-match between individual subs of a module in different versions.
16:26 theorbtwo Sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.
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16:32 particle_ yeah, agreed.
16:32 particle_ i'm only half following this thread, therefore came up with a half-brained idea
16:33 TimToady yes, almost certainly you just want most of the old version to be wrappers delegating to the new version.
16:35 TimToady either that, or limit the changes to portions of subs via given/when
16:35 TimToady but in general sub interfaces are the wrong scale for feature tweaks
16:36 TimToady wanders off again &
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17:18 ingy particle_: pong
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17:59 svnbot6 r10364 | fglock++ | PCR - :ratchet internals are objects; named captures work;
17:59 svnbot6 r10364 | fglock++ | - Pugs::Runtime::Match::Ratchet is very clean now;
17:59 svnbot6 r10364 | fglock++ | - implemented '<before>', '^'
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18:54 lichtkind ?eval do{}
18:54 wolverian o.o
18:59 FurnaceBoy . .
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19:06 lichtkind ?eval sub f {}
19:06 davidfetter o_O
19:07 lichtkind pugs seems dont recomment the ... syntax
19:07 lichtkind i mean my offline pugs at home
19:08 theorbtwo ?eval sub {...};
19:08 theorbtwo Oh.  evalbot has left the building.
19:08 lichtkind yes
19:09 lichtkind but i also found out that semikolons after closing brakcet are not  in pugs mandator<
19:09 lichtkind like larry said
19:13 lichtkind in pugs does "do { 1};" fine but "do { 1}" gives an error message
19:14 lichtkind    unexpected "s"
19:14 lichtkind    expecting term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix
19:14 lichtkind iteration, ";" or end of input
19:14 lichtkind    at new.p6 line 7, column 1
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19:48 pmurias hi
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19:53 svnbot6 r10365 | lwall++ | Removed quotes from keys of named arguments.
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20:14 bjoern_ From http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/syn/S06.html "Optional positional parameters are specified after all the required parameters and each is marked with a ? after the parameter ..."
20:14 bjoern_ does that imply one cannot have sub example(Str $x = '', Str $y) i.e., optional positional parameters preceding required ones?
20:14 bjoern_ It does not make sense to do that when calling using a parameter list, but given that you can also use example( y => '...' ) I would expect that to work.
20:19 bjoern_ hmm, I guess I could use a multi method to work around that...
20:20 PerlJam bjoern_: by adding the text " = ''", you've turned $x into an optional parameter, while $y is still positional.
20:21 PerlJam (positional and required)
20:21 bjoern_ Well, given the "after all the required parameters" above I wondered whether code like that would result in a parse error
20:21 PerlJam bjoern_: this will likely be flagged as an error at compile time.
20:21 bjoern_ right...
20:24 TimToady It *might* be possible to relax that constraint on a multi declaration.
20:24 TimToady on the theory that you'd just write the multis anyway, so why repeat the body.
20:25 TimToady but it's probably indicative of bad interface design, so why encourage it?
20:27 bjoern_ Well, to get more familiar with the latest Perl 6 development I tried to play with things a bit,
20:27 bjoern_ so I thought a bit how to map e.g. http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Ev​ents/events.html#Events-EventTarget
20:27 bjoern_ to Perl 6; this has the addEventListener and addEventListenerNS methods, they differ only in that
20:27 bjoern_ you specify the namespace of the event you want to listen to in the NS version, while in the other it defaults to null
20:27 bjoern_ i wanted to have something like
20:28 bjoern_ method add_event_listener( Str NamespaceURI = undef, Str type, EventListener listener, bool useCapture = False, evtGroup )
20:28 PerlJam bjoern_: Tim Bunce is looking for volunteers to create the JDBC API in pugs  :-)
20:30 bjoern_ I edit some of the W3C DOM specs, so I've already got way too much "J" around myself...
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20:31 TimToady It should probably be asking the EventListener object to add itself.
20:31 bjoern_ so I guess instead I should have multi method add_event_listener(type, listener, ...) and multi method add_event_listener(ns, type, listener, ...)
20:36 bjoern_ another question: in the DOM, many things can be an EventTarget, Element nodes, XMLHttpRequest objects, the browser Window object ...
20:36 bjoern_ the EventTarget interface provides methods to register and unregister listeners, and dispatch an event to the object. would this be modeled
20:36 bjoern_ as a role? it sounds appropriate, but "Element does EventTarget" does not sound very natural to me
20:37 theorbtwo Sounds natural to me, though it sounds like "EventSource" would have been a clearer name.
20:38 bjoern_ it seems to me that the source of an event would rather be, say, a mouse, keyboard, ...
20:39 bjoern_ in the DOM events propagate through the tree, so if you click a <button> listeners on the ancestors (<html>, <body>, <form>, ...) would also be triggered
20:40 bjoern_ all the objects would be EventTargets
20:40 theorbtwo Hm, I suppose.
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21:35 szabgab_ Ask has setup perl6-users mailing list
21:35 szabgab_ see http://news.perlfoundation.org/200​6/05/perl6users_mailing_list.html
21:36 szabgab_ or http://use.perl.org/~ask/journal/
21:36 szabgab_ or just send mail to perl6-users-subscribe@perl.org to subscribe
21:38 wolverian done :)
21:38 wolverian (yesterday)
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22:25 FurnaceBoy is now known as FB|afk
22:30 svnbot6 r10366 | lwall++ | Workaround !-e test failures.
22:36 svnbot6 r10367 | lwall++ | Workaround { () } misinterpreted as hash rather than block.
22:41 aufrank joined perl6
22:42 svnbot6 r10368 | lwall++ | Added evaled test for map { () }
22:45 svnbot6 r10369 | lwall++ | eval parsefail in enum.t
22:59 ludanolo joined perl6
23:00 ludanolo is now known as ludan
23:07 svnbot6 r10370 | lwall++ | Can't declare classes in an eval, have to predeclare.
23:15 Quell joined perl6
23:22 svnbot6 r10371 | lwall++ | closure arg requires comma
23:27 Quell joined perl6
23:27 mako132_ joined perl6
23:31 svnbot6 r10372 | lwall++ | {...}.arity not valid as list argument.
23:33 svnbot6 r10373 | lwall++ | more {}.arity
23:34 * theorbtwo grins.
23:34 theorbtwo .arity was my hack, way back in the day.
23:36 svnbot6 r10374 | lwall++ | wrong number of tests
23:39 TimToady still works, just can't use that syntax...
23:39 theorbtwo Hm.
23:40 theorbtwo I should possibly read those diffs, then.
23:41 theorbtwo What's the problem with foo({}.arity, 42) ?
23:44 audreyt I don't see the problem either
23:44 audreyt foo {}.arity, 42; # this would parse as (foo {}).arity
23:44 audreyt but surely foo({}.arity, 42) is fine?
23:45 audreyt TimToady: suppose "shift" default to shift @+_
23:45 audreyt then @_ needs to be env as well
23:45 audreyt how do I declare *@_ to be env?
23:46 audreyt sub f (*@_) { env @_; ... } # like this?
23:58 svnbot6 r10375 | lwall++ | workaround rule parsing coredump by inserting <null>

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