Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-05-25

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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03:18 svnbot6 r10423 | scw++ | Pugs::Grammar::MiniPerl6 test updated for cooperation with ratchet later
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05:31 jshriver hello
05:31 jshriver What's new in perl 6, or what's diff in it an the 5 series
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09:38 * theorbtwo pingsabout.
09:39 theorbtwo Bah, I hate it when I'm not sure if something should be here or on the ML.
09:39 theorbtwo Conrad says:
09:39 theorbtwo The basic idea is this: since the pugs svn tree is mirrored at perl.org, we
09:39 theorbtwo could have a subdirectory (for example "Perl_6_ Wiki") in the docs branch of
09:39 theorbtwo the source tree that would have a wiki-like hierarchy of html pages (or pod
09:39 theorbtwo pages for generating html) below it. The downside is that it would take
09:39 theorbtwo somewhat more effort to make changes and additions.
09:39 theorbtwo </blockquote>
09:41 theorbtwo I tend to think that a wiki Done Right could be a web front-end to a SVN repository -- that is, each page is a file in the svn repo, and modifying the page via the web form is just another way to make an svn checkin.
09:41 integral imho what I'd really like is a auto-updating job running on feather that produces an index of .../doc, and renders the pod to HTML so people can read it on the web confortably.
09:41 theorbtwo (And we allow people to access the svn repo directly, without going through the web fe if they want.)
09:41 theorbtwo I wonder if openfoundry could handle the load of checking if a page is up to date very-very-often.
09:42 integral umm, the svnbot already does checking :)
09:42 integral and the auto-reload-the-evalbot-thing too
09:42 theorbtwo Hm, true enough.
09:42 theorbtwo ...so apparently it can.
09:43 integral we just need to capture someone with tuits
09:43 theorbtwo Conrad has a major point that if modifying the docs isn't easy, it won't get done all that much.  That's rather the point of a wiki.
09:44 theorbtwo Anybody know if openfoundry allows giving wider rights on a subdir then is normal for a repository?
09:44 integral viewing needs to be easy too.  the current: view raw source in webbrowser direct from svn,  or check out and use perldoc isn't easy enough
09:44 theorbtwo I quite agree.
09:45 * integral always itches for the red pen when reading stuff
09:45 theorbtwo Speaking of, I'd love the editing interface to (optionally?) put every paragraph in a different textarea.
09:45 theorbtwo When editing longish wikis, it's generally horribly difficult to find the bit of text you wanted to change.
09:46 integral I believe that's a mediawiki feature
09:46 theorbtwo Oh!
09:46 theorbtwo Wikipedia didn't do it the last time I looked.
09:46 integral it puts wee '[edit]' tags next to each heading on the page, so you just click that to edit a specific section
09:47 theorbtwo The sections can still be quite large, though.
09:47 integral by 'section', I also mean subsections, subsubsections, subsubsubsections, etc :)
09:48 * integral & off to do some mathing
09:49 theorbtwo Have fun.
09:50 theorbtwo Hm, there's an openfoundry wiki available to us.
09:51 integral we have a pugs kwiki: pugs.kwiki.org (see the topic!) too
09:51 theorbtwo Oh, I forgot about that one.
09:52 theorbtwo I tend to think the problem is more too many wikis and not enough documentation of any of them then it is not the right wiki.
09:52 theorbtwo (Not that having the one true wiki run a good wikisystem wouldn't be good, but it's a minor point compared to there being a one true wiki system.)
09:56 theorbtwo Hm, the openfoundry frontend doesn't seem to allow access control on a subdirectory level.
09:57 theorbtwo Hmmm... given audrey's "be loose with commit bits" policy, perhaps we should just make a page on the web fe that allows you to "invite yourself", and then fills out the form on openfoundry.
09:58 theorbtwo That'd give anybody who asks on that page full commit rights, though.
10:01 theorbtwo Or, in the alternative, make creating a user on the wiki site create a user on the openfoundry side with the same userid, but manage the password ourself (by setting the user's email to one a script handles), and change their email address and send a "forgot password" request when they should graduate to a real user.
10:01 theorbtwo That sounds like a lot of work, though.
10:01 theorbtwo In the next alternative, mess with the svn repo in ways that can't be done via openfoundry's frontend.
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13:55 Alias_ seen audreyt?
13:55 jabbot Alias_: audreyt was seen 9 hours 15 minutes 49 seconds ago
13:55 Alias_ seen TimToady?
13:55 jabbot Alias_: TimToady was seen 7 days 7 hours 25 minutes 58 seconds ago
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15:34 particle_ ?eval say { 'a' => 'b', 'c' => 2 };
15:34 evalbot_10383 OUTPUT[ab c2  ] Bool::True
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16:32 Limbic_Region Juerd ping
16:32 Limbic_Region anyone a mingw user?
16:32 Alias_ yes
16:33 Limbic_Region Alias_ do you use it to build Parrot, and if yes, do you mind me /msg'ing you some questions
16:33 Alias_ nope
16:33 Limbic_Region oh, so no Parrot for you or you use Cygwin or something else?
16:33 particle_ l_r: build failing?
16:34 Limbic_Region particle_ - not even getting started
16:34 particle_ ah.
16:34 Limbic_Region basically the backslashes in the path are not getting intepreted as path delimiters
16:34 Limbic_Region so it is looking for Perl at C:perlbinperl.exe
16:35 Alias_ No parrot for me
16:35 particle_ can you wander over to #parrot on irc.perl.org?
16:35 Limbic_Region no - that's what the Juerd ping was for
16:35 particle_ i can answer questions here, too
16:35 Alias_ We use mingw in the Vanilla Perl builds
16:35 Limbic_Region I can only IRC from work via CGI::IRC
16:35 Limbic_Region he only has it currently set up for #perl6
16:35 particle_ oic
16:36 * Limbic_Region is guessing it is something obvious
16:36 Limbic_Region for instance, I am unable to create C:\Windows\System\<conf>.ini because of security lockdown on the box
16:37 Limbic_Region but now that I got Pugs building again I wanted to link with parrot :-(
16:37 particle_ during configure, parrot takes platform hints.
16:37 particle_ on your platform, that's /config/init/hints/mswin32.pm
16:38 particle_ check the elsif ($is_mingw) section, especially the slash => '\\'
16:38 particle_ perhaps changing that will help?
16:38 Limbic_Region checking
16:38 particle_ after configure is complete, there's lib/Parrot/Config.pm where you can check the settings, too (but you can't change them there.)
16:39 Limbic_Region but since it executes under a shell - I am thinking it wants \ to become / not \\
16:39 particle_ so change the hint to '/'
16:39 particle_ re-config
16:39 particle_ re-build
16:39 Limbic_Region trying now
16:41 Juerd Limbic_Region: pong
16:41 particle_ anyone else see matt sergeant in the new york times today?
16:41 particle_ http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/21/business/yourmoney/21spam.html?_r=1&amp;oref=slogin
16:42 Limbic_Region Juerd - do you think it would be possible to set up feather's CGI::IRC to allow #perl6 on freenode AND #parrot on irc.perl.org?
16:42 Limbic_Region particle_ no go, but I am still playing
16:43 Juerd I'll have a look if this system can handle that easily
16:43 Juerd If not, I can just copy the tree over
16:43 Limbic_Region having set up CGI::IRC in the past - it means that you will be able to go to #perl6 or #parrot on freenode or irc.perl.org
16:44 Limbic_Region they don't (or at least not last time I used it) have a way to lock in a channel with a network
16:45 Limbic_Region particle_ - I am not sure mswin32.pm is getting used - the STDERR debugging statements I put in aren't coming out
16:46 Limbic_Region msys.pm makes more sense - looking there
16:47 particle_ you can use perl Configure.pl --verbose-step=hints to tell you your platform
16:47 Limbic_Region was just doing that now
16:48 Limbic_Region parrot has changed a lot in the 1.5 years since I used it last
16:48 particle_ change is good :)
16:52 Juerd Limbic_Region: Done
16:53 Limbic_Region thanks Juerd
16:53 Limbic_Region particle_ headed over there now as chaning the delimiter in the hints didn't change the path of Perl in the Makefile
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17:42 Juerd Wow, CGI:IRC is incredibly stupidly written.
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17:44 Limbic_Region Juerd - that was my impression too from several years ago
17:44 Limbic_Region I would have hoped that it would have been improved since then
17:44 Juerd Well, it's a non-modular mess.
17:44 Juerd Logic is spread all over the place
17:44 Juerd So adding a feature like this isn't as simple as it should be.
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17:47 Juerd Okay, done now.
17:48 Juerd Hard coded it :)
17:50 Limbic_Region I see - thanks
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20:16 fglock Juerd: if you don´t mind hacking cgi-irc, would you add "charset=utf-8" to the headers? "Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8" I think
20:21 Juerd No, that's a promise that it can't keep.
20:23 Juerd Solve the IRC problem (change the protocol to support communicating character encodings), wait till the major servers and clients use the improvements, and then come back to me :)
20:23 fglock Juerd: maybe add "AddDefaultCharset UTF-8" to apache?
20:23 Juerd fglock: No. That's nonsense.
20:23 fglock Juerd: ok
20:23 szbalint irssi + recode support is great
20:23 Juerd Encodings aren't something you just add and hope things work out well.
20:23 Juerd They require conscious decisions.
20:24 Juerd Like: incoming IRC messages have to be decoded, and later, encoded to utf-8, if you want utf-8 output
20:24 Juerd Otherwise you get invalid characters.
20:24 Juerd But you cannot decode things properly.
20:24 Juerd IRC hasn't standardized on UTF-8, either.
20:25 Juerd Many people use latin-1, latin-15, or even non-latin encodings.
20:25 Juerd Promising to the browser that the data will be utf-8 is bad, if you already know you can't keep the promise.
20:25 Juerd I'm all for utf-8-ification. But not blindly. It has to be done with care.
20:25 Juerd And IRC prohibits any sane upgrade path.
20:25 Juerd Sorry.
20:26 szbalint Personally I've been using ISO-8859-2 for years. But I'm on four networks. 2 uses UTF-8, one is mixed and one is old ISO-8859-2.
20:26 szbalint What Juerd says is very true, unfortunately.
20:26 Juerd By the way, I wrote a Perl unicode tutorial yesterday, and merged reviewer's comments today.
20:26 Juerd http://juerd.nl/perlunitut.html
20:27 Juerd If you prefer pod, then use .pod
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20:43 fglock I wonder if there could be a "use utf8" checkbox during login, so it could be optional - does this make sense?
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20:48 ruoso Juerd++ great doc
20:48 Juerd Thank you
20:49 Juerd fglock: If you want to do this as the end user, just configure your browser?
20:49 bjoern_ it would be good to have something similar for module authors
20:49 Juerd fglock: Look for View > Character set > UTF-8
20:49 Juerd bjoern_: Most module authors don't have to do anything special.
20:49 bjoern_ like, what should module authors put into the docs relative to unicode
20:49 bjoern_ I'm not sure I agree :)
20:49 Juerd Only if your module communicates with non-perl, it has to handle this stuff.
20:49 Juerd With non-same-process I mean
20:50 Juerd And then, exactly the same rules apply as described in this tutorial
20:50 ruoso Juerd, is there a way to disable auto-upgrade?
20:50 Juerd Decode all incoming data
20:50 Juerd Encode all outgoing data
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20:51 Juerd ruoso: No, and some things depend on this, so you shouldn't. But audreyt wrote a module to help debug, encoding::warnings.
20:51 ruoso Juerd, nice...
20:51 Juerd bjoern_: The trouble is that modules are supposed to be written for generic application.
20:51 ruoso auto-upgrade causes hard-to-track bugs in some cases...
20:52 Juerd bjoern_: Thus, a string should be just a string. However, if you start encoding strings automatically, you loose compatibility with binary strings, and can no longer handle stuff like images, music, movies, etcetera, properly.
20:52 ruoso audreyt++
20:53 Juerd ruoso: If you are disciplined at decoding incoming information, upgrading is no longer a problem.
20:53 Juerd A consistent coding style helps recognizing such problems.
20:54 Juerd Well written modular code, where input, processing, and output are properly separated, usually doesn't suffer from implicit upgrading problems, if it decodes and encodes explicitly.
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20:54 ruoso Juerd, the problem is when someone with bad style uses a module that expect a good-style practice
20:55 Juerd ruoso: Yes, but the module can't fix it.
20:55 ruoso Juerd, use encoding::warnings 'FATAL' is nice...
20:55 fglock Juerd: when I change to utf8 it logs me out - but in the end it works
20:56 Juerd fglock: That's because the browser reloads the page :)
20:56 Juerd Or, well, tries to.
20:56 ruoso it must, because the request was in one enconding... and will start to be in another...
20:57 ruoso the connection must be reset...
20:57 ruoso so the new encoding is used in the transfer
20:57 Juerd It could try to be intelligent, and check if any bytes have changed in between encoding differences :)
20:57 ruoso heh
20:57 Juerd If the request contained pure ASCII, and it it did in this case, the browser could be made smart enough to realise it doesn't have to re-request if both the old and the new encoding are ASCII compatible.
20:57 Juerd s.it it.it is.
20:58 ruoso the problem is that it doesn't know what's coming...
20:58 ruoso but, thinking better..
20:58 ruoso it should be able to split that
20:58 ruoso no matter the connection encoding...
20:58 ruoso the browser could encode/decode....
20:59 ruoso hmm... actually not for utf8
20:59 ruoso forget what I said
20:59 fglock back to class &
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23:47 clkao in perl6 rules, when you have inline code { return "foo" }, doesi t became whatever is being captured?

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