Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-06-07

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:19 pfenwick joined perl6
00:26 svnbot6 r10583 | fglock++ | Pugs-Compiler-Rule/compile_p6grammar.pl - recognizes #comment and =pod sections
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01:04 putter question - why doesnt  [].map:{3}.join('x')  parse as  [].map( {3}.join('x') ) ?
01:05 audreyt If the term bare block occurs in a list,
01:05 audreyt it is considered the final element of that list unless followed immediately
01:05 audreyt by a comma or comma surrogate.
01:05 audreyt S06 line 132
01:06 audreyt src/Pugs/Parser.hs line 1571
01:06 audreyt (argListEndingBlock)
01:07 putter tnx :)
01:07 audreyt np :)
01:07 audreyt seems I'll be giving a slightly insane talk on OSCON'06 after all
01:08 audreyt = Programming the Kernel of Web 2.0 (45min Talk OSCON'06)
01:08 audreyt For a highly interactive web application to work well, the framework needs to manage user states, logic processes, and server resources intelligently.
01:08 audreyt This talk uses the Jifty kernel to demonstrate some interesting new concepts in this ever-expanding design space, including  API reflection, client-side continuations, context switching, and mobile code.
01:08 audreyt We will also take approaches of several other web frameworks (Links, WaSH, Seaside, Rails, Catalyst, Springs, Cocoon, etc.), and express them as kernel modules on the Jifty system.
01:09 audreyt basically, "what I did in $job, and related past/future insanities I inflicted on @coworkers"
01:09 putter lol
01:09 putter !
01:10 putter insane due to... scope?
01:10 audreyt due to how-to-wrap-my-head-around-that-argh
01:11 putter "how to..."  ...  "with difficulty" :)
01:11 audreyt but once you're there, things are easy and intuitive :)
01:12 audreyt <darix> the learning curve is like a mountain in the himalaya ...
01:12 audreyt <darix> nearly 90degree and close to 8000 m
01:12 audreyt <darix> but standing up the hill just rocks ;)
01:12 putter indeed.  once there, it's also a paper, and a couple of orielly-ish articles, and...
01:12 audreyt (originally applied to Hs, but also applicable here)
01:12 putter and some high priced consulting/tutorials :)
01:12 audreyt well yeah. I'm happy to report I'm no longer in need of sponsorship, at the cost of delaying Pugs for maybe 6 weeks :)
01:13 audreyt <- saved enough money for ~1yr
01:13 putter yay
01:13 audreyt can also be considered a form of yak shaving.
01:14 putter yak farming?
01:14 audreyt mm yak hoisting, lifting and floating
01:14 putter yak protesting
01:15 audreyt "join us now and shave the yakware"
01:17 * pfenwick looks forward to Audrey singing in the next Perl benefit concert.
01:19 putter so :{} requires lookahead for commaness.  is there any other parser-needs-lookahead which hasn't been crushed out?
01:19 audreyt was there ever such events for Perl? :)
01:20 audreyt 8 places
01:20 putter !
01:21 pfenwick Not that I'm aware of.  I can envisage a post-OSDC karaoke session, though.
01:21 putter are they documented somewhere?
01:22 audreyt er, I thought you meant in Parser.hs
01:22 audreyt in Perl6, it's less than 8
01:23 audreyt bare=>
01:23 audreyt stmt-ending-brace}
01:23 audreyt arglist-ending-brace}
01:23 audreyt are the only three iirc
01:24 audreyt lookup "=>" after bare; lookup "\n" or "," after closing brace
01:25 * audreyt misses her days with Taipei Philharmonic choir
01:25 audreyt though cut abruptly by the unfortunate voice change :/
01:26 * putter used to be in a renaissance choir.  much fun.
01:27 audreyt ooh, do tell
01:28 audreyt so you sing songs recorded from the renaissance?
01:28 audreyt (recorded with ink, not with soundwave capture devices invented by da Vinci, I presume)
01:28 putter many years ago.  only remnant is a 3-yr-old friend now singing medieval drinking songs. :)
01:29 audreyt nice :)
01:34 putter yes, eclectic mix, religious and non, late middle ages through renaissance, couple of languages.
01:34 putter much smaller group than a philharmonic.  tradeoffs, but I think I prefer small.
01:36 audreyt cool
01:36 audreyt bbiaba again... this time ~4hrs
01:36 putter is there any theory on how the oddballs fit in with the precedence parser?  I was also a bit puzzled by trailing "," (eg, (3,) )
01:37 putter ok.  thanks as always.
01:37 audreyt yes, theory is the nullterm
01:37 audreyt property
01:37 putter will google.
01:37 audreyt that is "I can take the rhs arg as a null term"
01:37 audreyt applies also to optional unary ("optionary") such as &rand.
01:38 audreyt not academic term per se; working concept employed by pmichaud
01:38 audreyt &
01:38 putter interesting.  ok.  tnx.
01:48 putter "Perl6 and non-stress induced alopecia in Bos grunniens fabri"
01:50 putter &
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03:45 svnbot6 r10584 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/Relation/ : added new Relation class attribute 'is_mutable', currently just False, which says whether the object may be mutated or not ... as preparation for changing Relation from a Class into a Role
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04:12 putter S03 bug? - the operator table at the bottom of S03 doesnt seem to mention .<>
04:12 putter &
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04:51 * spinclad remembers when the watchcry was 'shave the whales'
04:56 spinclad JudyHSIter update:  i'm inclined to say i choose the wrong macro processor to factor out my code's cut-n-pastiness.  trying m4 expansion in place of cpp: it will leave the generated code with line-by-line structure, which turns out to help gdb debugging.  besides it's a better preprocessor, just not integrated.
05:00 cmarcelo spinclad: do you mean: was using cpp => now lets use m4?
05:07 * cmarcelo just saw HSIter code, there are indeed some big macros there =P
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05:26 spinclad cmarcelo: only going to m4 for my big function-defining macros.  the rest of the #define's will stay.
05:27 cmarcelo joined perl6
05:28 spinclad (cmarcelo: just answered, should i repeat?)
05:28 cmarcelo (i read in web irclog)
05:28 spinclad (ah, good)
05:33 cmarcelo spinclad: m4 => cool, i'm tracking commit RSS, so when you update something I'll try to test here too..
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08:50 svnbot6 r10585 | pmurias++ | Added myself to AUTHORS.
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09:38 svnbot6 r10586 | spinclad++ | - JudyHSIter:  converted function macros from cpp to m4.  should make debugging easier.
09:38 svnbot6 r10586 | spinclad++ |   TODO:  have build process generate JudyHS.c from .m4, either in configure or in make.
09:41 spinclad and that's it for 'tonight'.  debugging again tomorrow.
09:41 spinclad &
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12:51 szbalint hm, I don't get the Currying example in S06.
12:51 szbalint It says     &textfrom := &substr.assuming(str=>$text, len=>Inf);
12:51 szbalint then
12:51 szbalint    $all  = $textfrom(0);   # same as: $all  = substr($text,0,Inf);
12:52 szbalint shouldn't that be &textfrom(0); ?
12:52 szbalint or am I misunderstanding something gravely?
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13:58 kolibrie szbalint: looks like it should be &textfrom(0) to me, too
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15:03 lypanov audreyt: its a shame that the ghc binary post-install-script you wrote doesn't take into account the possibility of other prefixes
15:06 lypanov audreyt: after modifying the script to work with my locations, i found i needed to do: mv /usr/local/lib/libreadline.5.1.dylib /usr/local/lib/libreadline.5.0.dylib also
15:14 * lypanov sighs
15:14 lypanov and then i get /usr/bin/ld: table of contents for archive: /usr/local/lib/ghc-6.5.20060526/libHShaskell98.a is out of date; rerun ranlib(1) (can't load from it)
15:14 lypanov booo
15:17 * lypanov spots some thing on the wiki and debates giving up
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15:20 audreyt lypanov: just run ranlib on all .a
15:20 audreyt ranlib /usr/local/lib/ghc-6.5.20060526/*.a
15:20 audreyt that's all
15:21 lypanov oh
15:21 lypanov thats utterly unexpectedly simple :P
15:21 * lypanov had certainly not thought that doing what it said would actually work :P
15:22 lypanov audreyt: awesome. darcs ./configure worked out. you could not possibly have been better timed :)
15:22 audreyt :)
15:23 lypanov audreyt: out of interest, what intel do you have?
15:23 audreyt white macbook 2ghz 2gram
15:23 lypanov :D
15:23 lypanov liking?
15:24 * lypanov is trying to get his mum one as his ibook has big white splodes on the screen (booo!)
15:24 lypanov splodges*
15:24 * lypanov listens to the result of a -j3
15:25 lypanov audreyt: i'm running eclipse, jboss, ghc, firefox, safari, itunes, ichat...
15:25 lypanov audreyt: maybe i should go that 2gram route also...
15:25 audreyt sure, it works wonderfully
15:26 audreyt minor acpi troubles. but certainly much better than anything i've used before.
15:26 lypanov linux?
15:27 lypanov /usr/bin/ld: Undefined symbols:
15:27 lypanov _ControlziMonadziError_zdf21_closure
15:27 lypanov booo
15:29 audreyt huh.
15:29 szbalint hey audreyt, could you look at what I've been talking about here a few hours ago please (if you have time)?
15:29 audreyt I'm actually about to sleep :/
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15:30 szbalint oh okay. Good night :)
15:30 lypanov sleep well audreyt :)
15:30 audreyt szbalint: currying? it's jsut a typo
15:30 szbalint phew.
15:30 szbalint :)
15:30 audreyt fixed.
15:30 audreyt thanks
15:35 szbalint I was hoping for it to be a typo otherwise my hopes for knowing Perl 6 would be pretty low. :)
15:35 audreyt never attribute to ingenuity what can be explained by sloppiness...
15:36 lypanov Linking darcs ...
15:36 lypanov /usr/bin/ld: Undefined symbols:
15:36 lypanov booooo. again
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15:39 Limbic_Region audreyt - do you use Parse::Yapp?
15:39 audreyt no
15:39 audreyt I use parsec and pappy :)
15:39 hexmode joined perl6
15:39 audreyt (and fglock's P::C::*)
15:40 Limbic_Region ok, but someone here has mentioned it numerous times
15:40 Limbic_Region hrm - I guess I will just dig in
15:42 audreyt well, P::C::* does use Yapp as the bototm layer
15:44 cognominal pappy?
15:44 * Limbic_Region is interested in a gentle introduction not waking up from a deep sleep to find yourself plummeting to the ground thousands of feet in the air without a chute
15:45 cognominal arf, le deuxieme mercredi du mois, c'est mercredi prochain
15:48 audreyt cognominal: packrat pappy. useful and fun
15:48 audreyt linear-time regex with capture and backtracking and backreference.
15:48 audreyt (sounds too good to be true, but it's indeed that good)
15:49 lypanov (um.....)
15:49 lypanov (*was thinking just that*)
15:49 audreyt (I elided the heavy memory cost.)
15:49 lypanov (hehe)
15:49 lypanov (unimportant in some situations)
15:49 audreyt but hey, 2gram must be good for something
15:49 audreyt indeed
15:49 * lypanov giggles
15:49 lypanov yeah
15:54 audreyt lypanov: try -lHSmtl by hand
15:54 audreyt or pull in  /usr/local/lib/ghc-6.5.20060526/libHSmtl.a
15:54 audreyt manually
15:54 audreyt should Just Work
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15:59 * lypanov bows to teh audreyt
15:59 lypanov audreyt: awesome. that worked
16:00 audreyt I suspect package.conf problems, or something...
16:00 audreyt not sure. try and see where it's missed
16:00 audreyt also possibly different XCode version
16:00 lypanov audreyt: 2.2. didn't upgrade yet
16:00 audreyt but I really need to sleep
16:00 audreyt g'nite :)
16:00 lypanov sleep well :)
16:00 audreyt &
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16:25 clkao audreyt: is it releasing time yet?
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18:49 Juerd ?eval 1+1
18:49 evalbot_10582 is now known as evalbot_10586
18:49 evalbot_10586 2
18:50 Juerd ?eval any(1..5).pick
18:50 evalbot_10586 1
18:50 Juerd ?eval any(1..5).pick
18:50 evalbot_10586 1
18:50 Juerd ?eval any(1, 2, 3) + any(4, 5, 6)
18:50 evalbot_10586 5
18:51 Juerd ?eval 15 ?? "perl 6" !! "blah"
18:51 evalbot_10586 "perl 6"
19:16 TimToady ?eval any(1, 2, 3) + any(4, 5, 6)
19:16 evalbot_10586 5
19:16 TimToady ?eval any(1, 2, 3) + any(4, 5, 6)
19:16 evalbot_10586 5
19:17 TimToady I'd say someone needs to randomize the random number generator in Haskell...
19:17 TimToady It works okay at the pugs> prompt though.
19:19 TimToady so maybe that's not the problem.
19:19 TimToady ?eval any(1..5).pick
19:19 evalbot_10586 1
19:19 TimToady ?eval any(1..5).pick
19:20 evalbot_10586 4
19:20 TimToady that's better.
19:21 TimToady ?eval any(1..5).pick
19:21 evalbot_10586 1
19:23 TimToady ?eval any(1..5).pick
19:23 evalbot_10586 1
19:24 TimToady does seem prejudiced towards picking the first one though.
19:29 TimToady ?eval any(1..5).pick
19:29 evalbot_10586 1
19:29 TimToady ?eval any(1..5).pick
19:29 evalbot_10586 3
19:29 TimToady especially after a long spell.
19:30 TimToady does evalbot refork itself after a timeout with the same random seed?
19:31 Limbic_Region ?eval any(reverse(1..6)).pick
19:31 evalbot_10586 4
19:31 Limbic_Region ?eval any(reverse(1..6)).pick
19:31 evalbot_10586 1
19:31 Limbic_Region ?eval any(reverse(1..6)).pick
19:31 evalbot_10586 5
19:31 Limbic_Region ?eval any(reverse(1..6)).pick
19:31 evalbot_10586 3
19:31 * Limbic_Region likes those results better
19:32 TimToady now wait a minute or two and then see if you get the same sequence.
19:33 Limbic_Region ?eval any(reverse(1..6)).pick
19:33 evalbot_10586 2
19:33 Limbic_Region ?eval any(reverse(1..6)).pick
19:33 evalbot_10586 1
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19:33 Limbic_Region ?eval any(reverse(1..6)).pick
19:33 evalbot_10586 6
19:33 Limbic_Region ?eval any(reverse(1..6)).pick
19:33 evalbot_10586 5
19:34 Limbic_Region ?eval any(reverse(1..6)).pick
19:34 evalbot_10586 3
19:34 Limbic_Region 2 anyone
19:34 Limbic_Region 2 anyone
19:34 Limbic_Region ?eval any(reverse(1..6)).pick
19:34 evalbot_10586 6
19:34 Limbic_Region nope - appears that is less prone to predictability
19:35 TimToady ?eval any(1..5).pick
19:35 evalbot_10586 4
19:37 * Limbic_Region still thinks it would be nice for any(2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17) == any(1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19) to produce the intersection - but I guess that's what Sets are for
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19:53 TimToady ?eval any(1..5).pick
19:53 evalbot_10586 1
19:54 TimToady ?eval any(1..5).pick
19:54 evalbot_10586 2
19:57 TimToady ?eval any(reverse(1..6)).pick
19:57 evalbot_10586 4
19:57 TimToady ?eval any(reverse(1..6)).pick
19:57 evalbot_10586 3
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19:57 gaal ?eval any(1..1024).pick
19:57 evalbot_10586 470
19:58 TimToady it seems to timeout after a minute or two, so if you wait 3 minutes you may well get 470 again.  picking a bigger range is clever, gaal++
19:59 gaal what's p6 for 1's complement?
19:59 gaal (p5 ~)
20:01 gaal (I'm skeptical it's a real problem btw. Murphy having some fun with the dice is all)
20:02 TimToady +^ or ~^
20:02 gaal ?eval any(1..~^0).pick
20:02 evalbot_10586 undef
20:02 gaal heh.
20:03 gaal ?eval any(1..+^0).pick
20:03 evalbot_10586 pugs: out of memory (requested 1048576 bytes)
20:03 gaal inefficient superposition.
20:03 TimToady it's just Murphy having fun... :)
20:03 TimToady ?eval any(1..1024).pick
20:03 evalbot_10586 514
20:04 TimToady maybe it times out on silence
20:04 gaal ?eval ~^0
20:04 evalbot_10586 "\d[207]"
20:04 gaal um?
20:04 gaal how's that, I wonder (and go rtfs)
20:04 TimToady ?eval ~^"0"
20:04 evalbot_10586 "\d[207]"
20:04 prefiks ?eval +^0x30
20:05 evalbot_10586 4294967247
20:05 prefiks ?eval (+^0x30)&0xff
20:05 evalbot_10586 255
20:05 gaal oh, okay.   op2 "~^" = op2Str $ mapStr2Fill xor
20:06 gaal ~0 was such a succinct way of saying "real big".
20:08 PerlJam gaal: but with bigint, you can get so much bigger.
20:08 TimToady That's generally * now.
20:09 gaal PerlJam: with bigint, you can get complex bigger.
20:15 gaal can anyone explain the type hint in op1 "+^"? Prim.hs:206
20:15 gaal (complement :: Word -> Word)
20:16 gaal @type complement
20:16 lambdabot forall a. (Bits a) => a -> a
20:16 gaal how could the input be coerced to a Word?
20:18 gaal hmm, oh, I see, there's an instance Value Word and opCast1 fmaps with its fromVal
20:18 gaal you guys are so helpful :)
20:21 TimToady ?eval any(1..1024).pick
20:21 evalbot_10586 320
20:23 TimToady ?eval any(1..5).pick
20:23 evalbot_10586 4
20:27 TimToady ?eval any(1..1024).pick
20:27 evalbot_10586 586
20:29 gaal maybe someone hacked evalbot to seed curiously when you requested an eval, TimToady.
20:30 gaal reminds me of the time I got irritated at people at $work logging in as root and patched login to be a little slower and give a nasty message when they did that.
20:42 szbalint hehe
20:43 szbalint reminds me of sudo with 'insults' on :)
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21:17 Juerd http://juerd.nl/p6sim.html
21:17 Juerd Any glaring big mistakes?
21:17 Juerd :)
21:19 Limbic_Region ?eval my @bar = 1..5; my $foo = @bar; $foo.[2]
21:19 evalbot_10586 \3
21:19 Limbic_Region Juerd - why do you have my $foo = \@bar; when my $foo = @bar; will do just fine?
21:19 Juerd Limbic_Region: See next slide?
21:19 Limbic_Region unless of course the spec has flipped again and Pugs has it wrong
21:20 Limbic_Region oh
21:20 Limbic_Region heh
21:20 Juerd :)
21:21 Limbic_Region Juerd - so I assume the ~~ match will eventually lead to junctions too?
21:21 Limbic_Region my @xyzzy = 42, 15, 123;
21:21 Juerd No
21:22 Limbic_Region @xyzzy ~~ 15; # true
21:22 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
21:22 Limbic_Region same as
21:22 Limbic_Region any(@xyzzy) == 15 or ~~ 15
21:22 Limbic_Region ok
21:22 Juerd Given time constraints and chosen topic, I put junctions in the bonus slide at the end
21:22 Juerd That has several things I can use to waste more time
21:22 szbalint Juerd: why don't you use say in the first example?
21:23 Juerd szbalint: To show how Perl 6 simplifies
21:23 szbalint oh
21:23 szbalint I scrolled.
21:23 szbalint :P
21:23 Limbic_Region are the magic ^ vars out or in for subs ATM
21:24 Limbic_Region last I heard, they were reserved for bare blocks
21:25 Juerd I have no idea
21:25 Juerd They don't immediately make life better
21:25 Limbic_Region ?eval sub foo { say "$^foo" } foo('blah');
21:25 evalbot_10586 Error: Undeclared variable: "$^foo"
21:25 Limbic_Region guess they are out
21:25 gaal Juerd: empty slide near "sub foo"
21:25 Juerd As far as I consider them, they're just a more general approach to doing sortlike things
21:26 Juerd gaal: intentional, in case my time's up at that point :)
21:26 Juerd I'm really bad at planning talks
21:26 Juerd Mostly because I don't know how many questions the audience will ask
21:26 Juerd And I don't like delaying questions until the end
21:27 Juerd So I build in mechanisms like this
21:27 Juerd I have two mechanisms in this talk:
21:27 Juerd - the empty slide
21:27 Juerd - the last slide, with several things that I can explain without further slides
21:27 Limbic_Region ?eval my @foo = 1..5; @foo.end
21:27 evalbot_10586 4
21:27 Limbic_Region ?eval my @foo = 1..5; @foo.last
21:27 evalbot_10586 Error: cannot last() outside a loop
21:28 Limbic_Region Juerd - s/last/end/
21:28 Limbic_Region for each(@items; 0..@items.last)
21:28 Juerd Ohhh
21:28 Juerd Thanks :)
21:29 gaal Juerd: ACK.
21:29 Juerd I've never actually used @foo.end :)
21:29 * Limbic_Region has to wander off but was almost finished
21:29 Juerd Thanks for reviewing, all of you :)
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21:39 putter currently pugs parses both  %h<3  and  %h<3>  .  Is that possible with a spec parser?  how?
21:46 Juerd It's *possible*
21:48 putter ...?
21:49 Juerd What's postfix:<?>, and how does it work on term:<...>?
21:50 putter there's prefix:<?>, but postfix?
21:51 Juerd That was my thought
21:51 Juerd But then you used it.
21:51 putter though there was scary talk of "if you find foo in mumblefix, but mumblefix:foo isnt defined, then you try otherfix:foo, and yafix:foo, and check the phase of the moon, and..."
21:52 Juerd Wheh
21:52 putter ahhhhh
21:53 Juerd Beer?
21:54 putter no, thank you
21:55 webmind bear?
21:55 putter oh, duh.  .<> can't really be a postcircumfix.
21:55 putter where!
21:56 putter a bare block is a parsing oddity.  wonder what a bear block is...
21:57 putter something hairy, no doubt
22:01 Juerd putter: Why couldn't .<> be a postcircumfix?
22:01 Juerd And can we abbr that to pcf? :)
22:01 Juerd Assuming there are no precircumfixes :)
22:02 Juerd afk
22:07 Limbic_Region Juerd - other than the one I pointed out, I didn't see any glaring mistakes
22:08 Limbic_Region then again, I have a hard time keeping up with all the changes
22:11 putter Juerd: the interior is not an expression.  %h<2+> is fine, but, @a[2+] isnt.
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22:25 putter re S04/The Relationship of Blocks and Declarations "There are three ways to declare formal parameters to a closure.",
22:26 putter ... there is also sub f { my($a,$b) = *@_ }.  $_ is mentioned, but not @).
22:26 putter err, @_.
22:30 putter The explanation of "executes immediately" bare blocks could be fleshed out.  Eg, creating a "Bare block" section near the top.  The bit under "The do-once loop" isn't really enough.  Perhaps there is more elsewhere I'm missing.
22:35 putter ?eval {3}.()
22:35 evalbot_10586 3
22:37 weinig|work is now known as weinig
22:44 putter question - so, {3} as an expression is a closure, (->$_ {3}), and {3} as a statement is a closure invocation, ((-> $_=$+_ {3}).()), yes?
22:47 putter hmm...  $a = CALLER:<$_>; { $b = CALLER:<$_> };  are $a and $b different?  or...?
22:48 putter &
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23:23 nothingmuch http://lamp.epfl.ch/~mcdirmid/papers/mcdirmid06superglue.pdf
23:24 nothingmuch it's nice because in Perl 5 that would be a disaster to implement (though feasable), but in Perl 6 it'll probably work out well
23:24 nothingmuch LtU++
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