Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-06-17

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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05:02 svnbot6 r10726 | cmarcelo++ | * Judy.Map: fromList and toList
05:22 pasteling "cmarcelo" at 200.232.236.25 pasted "IHash using Judy.Map (not working yet)" (133 lines, 5.3K) at http://sial.org/pbot/17791
05:26 cmarcelo audreyt: take a look at the paste when you have time. Judy.Map is working already, I was playing with Pugs code but didnt get too far. About CollectionM/MapM stuff I'm working on that, I'm thinking about simplifying a little the classes (in particular, integrate the necessary methods from Foldable in original CollectionsM), at least for now.
05:29 audreyt k. I just woke up
05:29 audreyt give me some mins
05:31 cmarcelo ok
05:33 audreyt what original CollectionsM?
05:33 cmarcelo ops
05:34 cmarcelo s/M//
05:34 cmarcelo Collection is child of Foldable, i was thinking by now just defining CollectionM (and take necessary methods from foldable)..
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05:36 audreyt maybe even just implement Foldable and Transversable?
05:37 audreyt hm, bad idea
05:37 audreyt need to have -M suffix and restrict to IO
05:37 audreyt so nvm
05:37 audreyt CollectionM sounds indeed correct
05:40 cmarcelo i wasn't clear: Collection is "child" of Foldable. I'm thinking of doing CollectionM as "orphan".. not defining FoldableM and TransversableM, at least for now.
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05:44 audreyt yup.
05:45 audreyt but if you reuse method names such as mapM fmapM mapM_
05:45 audreyt then that's going to clash
05:45 audreyt but maybe that's okay. not sure, my brain havn't woken up yet
05:47 cmarcelo hmm, original collections already clashes with prelude..
05:49 cmarcelo well, there's always "import qualified"..
06:05 gaal morning all
06:06 audreyt hey gaal
06:06 audreyt food, be back in ~30min, then I'll look at releng related items such as emit_yaml
06:07 audreyt my plane leaves at 5:20pm so that gives me ~7hr of pugswork time
06:09 gaal your coming flight brings you to redmond?
06:09 audreyt to taiwan
06:09 audreyt I sleep one night there
06:09 audreyt then immediately fly to redmond.
06:09 audreyt jet lag is going to be fun
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06:10 gaal yeah, i can imagine :/
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07:09 audreyt back from breakfast but going to nap a bit first...
07:20 cmarcelo audreyt: (take a nap first, read later) [context: Judy.Map as IHash impl.] there are places (reducePad in Eval.hs) that use newObject, which may create a new IHash (so it depends on IO monad), but reducePad somehow complains about this. maybe is the liftSTM before the call, dunno. [cf. my last paste in pbot, outdated code but gives the idea].. any idea how to get off this? or am i messing more code than needed?
07:22 cmarcelo i'm going to sleep now. (i read irc logs on web, so it's ok to reply even when i'm off)..
07:22 cmarcelo &
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07:31 carbon i will now proceed to ask a question i'm sure is on every faq
07:31 carbon *ahem*
07:31 carbon any estimations on when perl6 will be ready and released?
07:35 audreyt by christmas.
07:35 carbon of this year?
07:36 audreyt that we don't know. :)
07:37 audreyt a zeroth estimation is something alpha or beta quality this year, and a more feature-complete by next christmas, but it varies depending primarily on how many help we get.
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12:00 audreyt ...and I slept well past checkout time, only have 1hr to work now
12:00 audreyt fixed PGE::Hs to support adverbs
12:01 audreyt and corrected captures; emit_yaml next
12:03 wolverian sleeping is good
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12:24 audreyt :s and :sigspace added to PGE
12:24 audreyt now working on the pugs side bridge
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12:30 gaal I've been meaning to merge genParseYAML and genParseHsYAML a little more
12:32 audreyt oh cool
12:33 wolverian heh, chmod -x chmod # oops
12:34 audreyt perl -e 'chmod'
12:34 audreyt to the rescue
12:34 wolverian hehe :)
12:35 gaal lol
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12:47 audreyt ok, gotta run to airport now. bbiab
12:48 svnbot6 r10727 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Parser: start parsing for "rule" and "token" specific adverbs.
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13:10 nothingmuch seen ingy?
13:10 jabbot nothingmuch: ingy was seen 18 hours 13 minutes 53 seconds ago
13:10 nothingmuch hmm
13:10 nothingmuch audreyt: can i bug you about Module::Compile?
13:11 gaal nothingmuch: 15:47 < audreyt> ok, gotta run to airport now. bbiab
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13:11 nothingmuch oops
13:12 gaal I need help loosening this signature (or rank-2ing it or something):
13:12 nothingmuch ingy: ping?
13:12 gaal doGenParseYAML :: YAML a => (a -> IO b) -> Eval Val
13:13 gaal I'm getting the error: Couldn't match the rigid variable `a' against `CompUnit' `a' is bound by the type signature for `doGenParseYAML'
13:13 gaal so without grokking what I'm doing, I try
13:13 gaal doGenParseYAML :: forall a. YAML a => (a -> IO b) -> Eval Val
13:13 gaal but that gives the simple
13:13 gaal Not in scope: type variable `b'
13:14 gaal The task is higher-ordering the nearly identical genParseHsYAML, genParseYAML
13:14 gaal which only differ in toYamlNode / showYaml respectively
13:15 gaal which weirdly are
13:15 gaal YAML a => a -> IO YamlNode and
13:15 gaal YAML a => a -> IO String
13:18 gaal come to think of it how did the CompUnit -> IO VStr work in the original?
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14:20 lumi gaal: try  "forall a b. YAML a => etc.  " ?
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14:20 lumi Quantifying explicitly over b
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14:25 mj41_ hello
14:25 mj41_ Compiling Pugs.Prim        ( src/Pugs/Prim.hs, dist\build\src/Pugs/Prim.o )
14:25 mj41_ ghc.exe: internal error: update_fwd: unknown/strange object  0
14:25 mj41_    Please report this as a bug to glasgow-haskell-bugs@haskell.org,
14:25 mj41_    or http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/ghc/
14:25 mj41_ Preprocessing library Pugs-6.2.12...
14:25 lambdabot Title: "SourceForge.net: The Glasgow Haskell Compiler"
14:26 mj41_ Building Pugs-6.2.12...
14:26 mj41_ Build failed: 65024 at util\build_pugs.pl line 96.
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14:44 nothingmuch http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/Module-Compile-TT/
14:44 lambdabot Title: "Index of /Module-Compile-TT"
14:45 gaal mj41_: how much RAM do you have? can you vi config.yml and increase heap?
14:46 gaal mj41_: you need to perl Makefile.PL after you do that.
14:46 gaal lumi: that doesn't help.
14:46 gaal lumi: when I remove the sig altogether I get an error that makes complete sense to me
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14:47 gaal saying that you can't take a compUnit and turn it into a VStr
14:47 gaal if it said you can't take a YamlNode and turn it into a VStr I'd also agree.
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15:17 visq overview question: is it by purpose that some things like the triangular comma are mentioned in the synopsis but neither implemented nor test-cased ?
15:18 visq how to find out what behaviour is intended eventually ?
15:35 TimToady visq: by necessity, things are specced before they are implemented, and often poorly specced before they are tested to see what the actual interactions are.
15:36 TimToady and we're all just volunteers, so often things get specced speculatively long before they're tested or implemented.
15:38 TimToady with something like triangular comma, it's not at all clear what the exact semantics should be yet.  It's just a syntax that falls out of the other triangular infixes.  But the spec is just saying it's available to make it mean something useful maybe.
15:38 visq Ok. Is there another obvious link between the synopses and the implementation other than the L<S?? tags ?
15:39 visq Has someone tried to annotate the synopses with test results based on those tags ?
15:39 visq Found it a bit hard to find out what actually works right now
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15:40 TimToady have you seen http://m19s28.vlinux.de/cgi-bin/pugs-smokeserv.pl?
15:40 lambdabot Title: "Pugs Smoke Reports"
15:42 visq Yes, already did that and it's very nice. But not directly linked to the Spec.
15:42 visq I think
15:42 gaal actually, it is, though we could use help with making the links richer.
15:42 TimToady occasionally some of the tests link back to the spec, but there's nothing official
15:42 gaal look for example in undef.t
15:42 gaal scroll until you see a link and follow it
15:43 TimToady part of it is simply that the specs aren't as well structured as they would be if we were designing, say, Ada.
15:44 TimToady part of it is simply that volunteers aren't generally into that kind of accountability.
15:44 TimToady and like POD, we make it easy for people to contribute, even if it's suboptimal in various ways.
15:45 TimToady but as gaal sez, we'll take help wherever it's offered :)
15:45 TimToady even if it's actually improving things. :)
15:45 gaal visq: specifically to make this better, the'res magic in place that lets you do it w/o needing to edit the synopses
15:46 gaal put a L<S> link in the test file, even to arbitrary places in the middle of a paragraph of the spec
15:46 visq I think it wouldn't be that hard to inject the relevant test results into the synopses .pod files
15:47 gaal visq: commits very, very welcome. we can do something like FIT
15:47 TimToady well, I don't know how many people would actually be interested in reading that, but certainly we could check coverage by backlinking.
15:48 TimToady FIT?
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15:48 gaal it's a way of embedding tests inside spec docs
15:48 gaal Ran Eilam gave a talk on doing it with Perl and MS Word in OSDC
15:49 TimToady seems like a good way to discourage people from reading the specs, but probably there can be multiple ways to view the specs.  :)
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15:49 gaal see http://search.cpan.org/~ingy/​Test-FIT-0.11/lib/Test/FIT.pm
15:49 lambdabot Title: "Test::FIT - A FIT Test Framework for Perl - search.cpan.org"
15:49 TimToady thanks
15:50 gaal well, it is one way to read the spec and know "is this implemented? is this tested?"
15:50 visq thanks too.
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15:51 gaal visq: is this something you could be interested in looking into?
15:51 gaal look at the smoke target and util/catalog_tests.pl
15:53 visq ahh, I see
15:54 TimToady don't let what I said earlier discourage you.  good tools will motivate people to improve their cross-linkages if they can see pretty colors.
15:56 TimToady which reminds me, someone should put a "key" into the TAP matrix that explains what the various colors actually mean...
15:57 TimToady and I think it's a bit disengenuous to make "todo" items dark green...
15:58 TimToady purple, maybe...
15:58 visq maybe you know: make smoke does not generate the linked files like $PUGS_HOME/t/builtins/strings/length.html
15:58 visq for me
15:58 gaal someone should. till it's there: disengenuous dark green = todo; light green = OK; red = fail; yellow = unexpected success
15:59 TimToady I'm still not entirely sure what white means...  Untested on this architecture?
15:59 gaal skipped
16:00 gaal visq: perl util/catalog_tests.pl > /dev/null
16:03 TimToady but in a real sense, the test suite is becoming the specification.  The S* are really intended primarily to just be deltas from Perl 5, whereas the test suite needs to be complete.
16:04 TimToady that's why it makes more sense to do the links from the testing end.
16:04 visq gaal: Didn't finish successfully. Says it cannot find /home/eric256/../code.tmpl :)
16:04 visq Will look at it later
16:05 gaal TimToady: one concern I have with that now that pugs has a lot of language working already, the tests use pretty expressive Perl
16:05 TimToady yep
16:05 gaal a new implementation will have to work hard till it can reuse our tests.
16:06 TimToady nod
16:06 visq TimToday: A test suite is no full spec, right ? And reading the Haskell code is a bit of a burden
16:06 TimToady I remember writing the original TEST program in a very limited subset of Perl 1.  :)
16:06 gaal anyone remember where CPANPLUS keeps its global config?
16:06 gaal :)
16:07 TimToady The test suite *can* be a spec if it's complete enough, I think.  We're nowhere near that yet, of course.
16:08 TimToady but I don't know what "full spec" means.  a spec is not a container that be filled. :)
16:08 TimToady s/be/can be/
16:09 visq Well, no one wants a *formal* spec, right (a bit hard to do as well)
16:09 TimToady I think the government defines full specs to be ones that break the scales you weight them on.
16:09 TimToady the problem with writing a formal spec is that you have to be omniscient to write one.
16:10 visq Still, I like the test suite, but it is not the best way to get started (synopses on the other hand give a good overview picture)
16:10 TimToady we're going for a more evolutionary approach, so the test suite is as formal as it gets.
16:10 TimToady at least the spec is not the C code, like it is with Perl 5.
16:10 visq Well, the semantics of the haskell core, should you dare to think about it, is kind of a formal spec
16:11 TimToady I think thinking about that too hard would damage me as a "language designer for the people" :)
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16:11 TimToady I rely on smarter people to do that.
16:12 TimToady I love all the semantic feedback I get from the Haskell implementation though.
16:13 TimToady and I don't mind other people bugging me about areas where I think fuzzily, since that's basically all of 'em.
16:15 visq concerning util/catalog_tests.pl: Has anyone run this besides erik256 ? His home directory is hard-coded ;)
16:16 gaal it's on feather.. fixing
16:16 TimToady that's what symlinks are for  ;p
16:17 gaal or relative paths :)
16:18 TimToady them's is too hifalutin' fer the likes o' myself
16:18 cognominal_ WHO THERE triangular comma was close to googlewhack
16:19 gaal I wonder whatever did happen to eric
16:27 gaal fixed.
16:27 svnbot6 r10728 | gaal++ | * unbreak util/catalog_tests.pl by keeping the start path around when looking for the templates
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16:29 TimToady you fixed eric?
16:30 gaal ah fixed 'im, all right
16:30 gaal hmm, it used to be that the cataloger painted lines in the tests' HTML according to the test result. I wonder what happened to that too
16:31 gaal maybe it eloped with eric
16:31 visq_in_lederhos gaal: catalog_tests.pl needs to be rewritten, propably
16:31 gaal how come?
16:32 visq_in_lederhos 1. sorry for the nick, my desktop crashed again
16:32 visq_in_lederhos 2. the referenced svn repo now has another layout http://svn.perl.org/perl6/doc/trunk/
16:32 lambdabot Title: "Revision 9686: /doc/trunk"
16:33 visq_in_lederhos my fault
16:34 visq_in_lederhos weird command line argument handling though
16:35 gaal we can fix the command line handling w/o needing to rewrite the whole thing :)
16:35 gaal by all means, hack on adding Getopt::Long to that though
16:35 gaal got a commit bit?
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16:36 visq_in_lederhos Ahh, it worked now
16:37 visq_in_lederhos gaal: commit bit ?
16:37 gaal can you check in patches to pugs?
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16:38 visq_in_lederhos I don't think so
16:38 gaal please send me your email, that'll change in a jiffy
16:39 gaal hmm, it's marking everything as 'non_test', that's why the colors are wrong.
16:44 gaal visq_in_lederhos: didn't get an email yet, if you aren't registered in freenode you can't send /msgs
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16:58 visq \msg gaal :works now ?
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17:04 gaal visq: invitation on its way to you. welcome aboard, and please update AUTHORS with your name :)
17:06 gaal hey has anyone been using spork lately? its support for images seems broken all of a sudden
17:06 gaal I have {image: localfile.jpg} and it isn't generating HTML for it
17:06 gaal I'm pretty sure this used to.
17:07 gaal ingy about?
17:08 nothingmuch if you find him i need him too
17:09 nothingmuch http://search.cpan.org/~nuffin/Mod​ule-Compile-TT-0.01/lib/tt.pm#TODO
17:09 lambdabot Title: "tt - Preprocess Perl code with Template Toolkit and Module::Compile. - search.cp ..."
17:09 pasteling "cmarcelo" at 200.232.236.25 pasted "IHash using Judy.Map (not working yet)" (133 lines, 5.3K) at http://sial.org/pbot/17801
17:09 nothingmuch urf lambadbot
17:09 gaal actually I like that feature
17:10 gaal lowers pain of context switches
17:10 nothingmuch i'm just not used to it yet, i guess
17:10 * gaal mooses randomly
17:10 nothingmuch ciao guys, bbl
17:11 gaal bye nothingmuch
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17:19 gaal ah, solved the local image problem
17:19 gaal i was sillily copying to slides/ and not to slides/images/
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18:01 kane__ gaal: global config is in CPANPLUS::Config
18:02 kane__ alternately, where you set $ENV{PERL5_CPANPLUS_CONFIG} to point to
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18:15 svnbot6 r10729 | lwall++ | Slaughter of :w/:words (the rx:w kind, not the q:w kind).
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18:33 ingy nothingmuch, gaal: pong
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18:37 nothingmuch ingy: http://search.cpan.org/dist/Module-Compile-TT
18:37 lambdabot Title: "&#1497;&#1493;&#1489;&#1500; &#1511;&#1493;&#1490;'&#1502;&#1503; / Module-Compi ..."
18:37 nothingmuch please look at the TODO
18:38 nothingmuch and comment on how i can improve on those features
18:43 nothingmuch ingy: stevan suggested that I should ride bitch on your bike
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19:05 gaal ingy: I fixed my problem, never mind. just moose then
19:05 gaal kane__: thanks
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19:56 ingy nothingmuch: sure, you can be my bitch any time
20:00 nothingmuch ingy: i'm more worried about Module::Compile though
20:01 ingy nothingmuch: what about?
20:01 nothingmuch did you look at the link?
20:02 ingy what's the problem?
20:02 nothingmuch well
20:02 nothingmuch a. use foo var => 'bah' kinda sucks
20:02 nothingmuch you have to eval the string afterwords
20:02 nothingmuch and you can't use lexicals from that scope
20:03 nothingmuch which is unintuitive
20:03 ingy backup
20:03 nothingmuch and b. you pmc_compile doesn't know what file/package/from line/to line it's filter
20:03 nothingmuch ing
20:03 nothingmuch it would be nice if those were passed in $_[1] along side $_[1]{use}
20:03 ingy can you say this in the form of tests?
20:03 nothingmuch a. not really
20:04 nothingmuch b. yes, but those will be sucky tests
20:04 nothingmuch a. is more of a please think about it thing
20:04 ingy I really don't have the context at all
20:04 nothingmuch well
20:04 ingy or maybe I do
20:04 nothingmuch my $var;
20:04 ingy but I don't get it yet
20:04 nothingmuch scratch that
20:04 nothingmuch let's say i have a filter
20:04 nothingmuch any filter
20:05 nothingmuch use foo extra_files_filter_cares_about => glob("foo/bar/*.file");
20:05 nothingmuch this is a nice to have thing
20:05 nothingmuch but since everything after 'foo ' is treated as a string, i have to eval it myself in my filter
20:05 nothingmuch which is not 100% safe
20:05 nothingmuch is that intentional?
20:05 nothingmuch is that avoidable?
20:06 nothingmuch ?
20:07 ingy not sure
20:07 nothingmuch okay, please think about it and once you make a decision i promise tests
20:07 ingy best to send me some cogent failing test
20:07 nothingmuch urf
20:07 nothingmuch but i don't know the right behavior
20:07 * nothingmuch really hates this "send me a failing test" thing
20:08 nothingmuch it only makes sense when it makes sense
20:08 ingy just send a piece of code containing rm -fr /
20:08 ingy that makes me see wtf you are talking about
20:08 ingy I'm planning on hacking M::C today
20:08 ingy so the timing is good
20:09 nothingmuch well... uh
20:09 nothingmuch i seriously don't know how to make this into a test
20:09 ingy just send me some code that makes me see the problem
20:09 ingy I'm just not getting it yet
20:10 ingy but I haven't been in this code in months
20:10 nothingmuch okay, i'll try
20:10 nothingmuch but i can promise you it won't be clear
20:10 ingy just something like
20:11 ingy use tt files => 'system("rm *")';
20:11 nothingmuch heh
20:11 ingy is that what you are talking about?
20:12 nothingmuch not exactly
20:12 nothingmuch or, not so clearly
20:12 nothingmuch do i have to provide the code for the filter?
20:12 ingy dude, I'm just asking for a clear explanation of the problem
20:13 nothingmuch one sec
20:13 ingy pretend that I did't write M::C
20:13 nothingmuch i'm writing
20:13 ingy because at this point I don't even remember what it does
20:13 nothingmuch okay
20:13 nothingmuch i'm sorry, i may have assumed too much
20:13 ingy right
20:13 nothingmuch no jokes about makeup sex
20:14 ingy :P
20:14 ingy they say that's the best kind, but I'm a virgin so I wouldn't really know
20:15 pasteling "nothingmuch" at 84.108.53.74 pasted "<3 ingy" (9 lines, 247B) at http://sial.org/pbot/17811
20:16 nothingmuch ingy: is that clearer?
20:16 ingy much
20:17 ingy it's all coming back
20:18 ingy I'll think more about it
20:18 nothingmuch okay
20:18 nothingmuch now, the second thing is that i'd like $params, in that example, to contain more keys
20:18 nothingmuch like $params->{file}, $params->{package}, $params->{from_line}, $params->{to_line}
20:19 ingy sub foo::pmc_string_args { 0 }
20:19 nothingmuch $params->{file} is the file that 'use foo' was in, $params->package is the package it was in, etc
20:19 ingy perhaps
20:19 nothingmuch i don't really mind what the interface is
20:19 nothingmuch perhaps even provide both
20:19 ingy thing is I might not have access to the runtime values
20:19 ingy I think that the way it is working now is mostly correct
20:20 ingy but I'll try to give you what you want...
20:20 ingy if it's possible
20:20 ingy ideas welcome
20:21 nothingmuch well
20:21 nothingmuch it's not runtime
20:21 nothingmuch i thin
20:21 nothingmuch k
20:21 nothingmuch these are only called once, right?
20:23 ingy right...
20:23 nothingmuch oh, also
20:23 nothingmuch you can't do:
20:23 nothingmuch use foo (
20:23 nothingmuch    blah => "Baz",
20:23 nothingmuch );
20:23 nothingmuch which people sometimes do
20:23 ingy ok
20:25 ingy I don't know how to even run the params as an expression
20:25 nothingmuch i did it using:
20:25 nothingmuch s/^\s*use\s+tt\s*//
20:25 nothingmuch and then eval
20:25 nothingmuch which *really* stinnks
20:26 nothingmuch but works for very simple things
20:26 Limbic_Region ingy - did you see http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=554561
20:26 lambdabot Title: "IO::All is sliced bread"
20:26 ingy perl only calls the first use
20:26 Limbic_Region if you have any unmarried sisters - I would look out
20:26 nothingmuch ingy: oooohhhhhhh
20:26 nothingmuch so use foo is source filtered
20:26 nothingmuch instead of being an ->import trick?
20:26 nothingmuch or rathedr
20:26 nothingmuch the first time it's an import trick
20:27 nothingmuch and every time after that it's a source filter?
20:27 ingy Limbic_Region: praise for ingy code!!??
20:27 FurnaceBoy_ joined perl6
20:28 nothingmuch you have a sisteR?
20:28 ingy guy is obviously a moron
20:28 Limbic_Region ingy - yes
20:28 Limbic_Region "P.S. No, Brian Ingerson didn't pay me to say that, and I'm not married to his sister."
20:28 ingy I need to redo that module sans Spiffy
20:28 ingy Brian Ingerson is dead
20:29 ingy Ingy 2.0 -- The T-Shirt
20:30 Limbic_Region heh
20:46 lde joined perl6
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21:27 mako132_ joined perl6
21:39 * xpeed is away: Busy
21:45 * xpeed is back (gone 00:05:38)
21:50 nothingmuch ingy: want to reply to http://perlmonks.org/?node=556022?
21:50 Ymmv joined perl6
21:50 lambdabot Title: "Not found"
21:51 * marcus_ is bored
21:51 nothingmuch err, http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=556022
21:51 lambdabot Title: "Re: Module::Compile::TT"
22:05 weinig is now known as weinig|bbq
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22:58 svnbot6 r10730 | benedikth++ | * fixed command line handling (sanity checks, GetOpt-Long)
22:58 svnbot6 r10730 | benedikth++ | * added help message
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23:23 justatheory joined perl6

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