Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-06-21

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
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00:24 svnbot6 r10778 | audreyt++ | * JS Prelude: Fix an incorrect use of reduce.
00:29 meppl gute nacht
00:35 cognominal_ is ~{ whatever }   synonymous of  "{ whatever }"   ?
00:35 audreyt ?eval ~{1}
00:35 evalbot_10746 "<SubBlock(<anon>)>"
00:35 audreyt no. :)
00:35 audreyt ?eval ~{1}()
00:35 evalbot_10746 "1"
00:35 audreyt now that works
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02:41 fglock christopher: in case you backlog - the Pugs::Compiler::Rule tree is at misc/pX/Common
02:41 svnbot6 r10779 | fglock++ | Pugs-Compiler-Perl6 - P6.pm doesn't need exec(); added some operators to the emitter
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02:43 christopher fglock: thanks.  Is the one in perl5/ orphaned?
02:44 fglock there was a plan to move it there, but the development went on in pX
02:45 christopher fglock: Also, I got some regexes to work in the pugs shell (utilizing character classes) that don't seem supported yet in Pugs::Compiler::Rule.  I'm confused about where this support is coming from.
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02:45 fglock so I removed the one in perl5 today
02:46 fglock pugs uses the PGE implementation, which is written in Parrot
02:47 christopher Is the PGE implementation fuller in general?  Are you writing P::C::R just to avoid the parrot dependency?
02:47 fglock the implementations are not in sync
02:50 fglock there are missing features in both - some things are easier to implement in perl5
02:50 fglock but parrot is more efficient
02:52 fglock I hope P::C::R is easier for p5 people to contribute to
02:57 christopher I still haven't traced through the operation of P::C::R, but to implement character classes, it looks like maybe you just need a metasyntax handler for them.  Are there any prototypes for metasyntax handlers yet, or would this be the first?
03:00 fglock see Pugs/Emitter/Rule/Perl5.pm - the metasyntax is handled by a big sub in the end of this file; there is a separate implementation for :ratchet in lib/Pugs/Emitter/Perl5/Ratchet.pm
03:00 fglock christopher: do you have a commit bit?
03:01 christopher yes, a seldom-used one...
03:02 fglock re: avoid parrot - no, the goal is to have pure-perl6 implementation (the grammar is already written in perl6)
03:02 fglock s/have/have a/
03:03 fglock maybe using Pugs::Compiler::Perl6
03:04 fglock P::C::R uses a source filter for $/<0> - the idea is to use P::C::P6 to compile these snippets
03:05 fglock and then rewrite P::C::Perl6 to P6 using itself
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03:36 christopher fglock: Not sure why I thought character classes didn't work previously.
03:36 christopher But, I see that if I replace "Pugs::Compiler::Regex" with "Pugs::Compiler::Rule" when constructing my rules, the from() and to() on match objects gets screwed up.
03:47 fglock christopher: Regex and Rule use different emitters - can you add a test?
03:48 christopher fglock: done.
03:48 fglock thanks!
03:53 fglock christopher: this is a bit hard to fix - un-anchored match is a hack :(
03:55 fglock Pugs::Compiler::Regex.pm line 126
03:55 fglock from and to are not updated
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03:56 svnbot6 r10780 | fglock++ | Pugs-Compiler-Perl6 - imported t/01-sanity; 01-sanity/01-tap.t runs.
03:56 svnbot6 r10781 | malon++ | Duplicate from() and to() tests from P::C::Regex to P::C::Rule
03:58 fglock sleep time here - I'll see it tomorrow &
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04:12 miyagawa nothingmuch: http://unknownplace.org/cp​anrecent/rss/author/nuffin
04:26 bsb I just got the the "Ergo.. Everyone hates Ingy" slides... totally cracked me up
04:27 bsb s/the/to/
04:29 gaal bsb: moose!
04:37 bsb hi gaal
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05:46 ingy everyone still hates me?
05:48 bsb not after about slide 125 :)
05:49 bsb ingy: I trust you've seen that talk?
06:04 QtPlatypus bsb: Which talk is this?
06:04 ingy the anti-ingy talk!
06:04 bsb http://pugs.blogs.com/talks​/npw06-deploying-perl6.pdf
06:04 bsb although I've spoilt the punchline
06:04 * ingy goes to sleep
06:04 ingy hated...
06:05 bsb no!
06:05 ingy it's ok. be hated is the least of my worries
06:05 bsb that can't be good
06:05 wolverian who is your greatest worry?
06:06 * ingy embraces the hatred
06:06 ingy wolverian: the man
06:09 wolverian damn I hate that guy.
06:09 ingy all true mongers hate *that guy*
06:10 bsb and The Man hates us...
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10:27 renormalist ?eval say "hello"
10:27 renormalist damn :)
10:28 evalbot_10746 OUTPUT[hello ] Bool::True
10:28 renormalist ah, ok
10:28 renormalist ?eval say 1; say 2; say 3;
10:29 evalbot_10746 OUTPUT[1 2 3 ] Bool::True
10:29 renormalist ?eval say for [1,2,3];
10:29 evalbot_10746 OUTPUT[ ] undef
10:30 renormalist What I'm trying to tell: My pugs doesn't print newlines after "say" if done in a "for" loop. Compare "say 1; say 2; say 3;" versus "say for [1,2,3];". What's the difference?
10:33 renormalist Stupid me. It has to be:   say for (1,2,3);
10:34 renormalist Even "say for 1,2,3;" works. Ignore me. :-)
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11:27 svnbot6 r10782 | audreyt++ | * add concurrency example directory
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11:28 svnbot6 r10783 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Prim: Implement &retry and &Code::retry_with as specced in
11:28 svnbot6 r10783 | audreyt++ |   liz's Concurrency Spec Draft.
11:28 svnbot6 r10784 | audreyt++ | * examples/concurrency/stm-retry-with.pl - demo from the STM
11:28 svnbot6 r10784 | audreyt++ |   features "atomically", "retry" and "retry_with".  Help needed
11:28 svnbot6 r10784 | audreyt++ |   to convert that to a proper unit test.
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11:37 svnbot6 r10785 | renormalist++ | - minifix in Overview.pod: elems gives number of elements, not last element
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12:13 cognominal_ $text ~~ /<?ident>/  &&  print %hash{~$/};   # I suppose the necessity of a ~  means that a hash keys is not necessarily a string
12:13 audreyt ys
12:14 audreyt but otoh, in this case {$/} is prolly good enough
12:15 cognominal_ because the default value for a Match in scalar context is a string.
12:15 audreyt yeah.
12:16 * cognominal_ note that Perl6 is overingeenired... just like is de facto a natural language after centuries of use.
12:16 cognominal_ overengineered...
12:17 audreyt well, perl is overengineered...
12:17 cognominal_ that will be a tough sell for people obsessed by regularity
12:18 theorbtwo People obsessed by regularity should feel free to put in redundant ~s.
12:18 audreyt for people obsessed with regularity, they know where to find Scheme
12:18 theorbtwo ...or use a more regular language.
12:20 cognominal_ well. I read a few mail in a recent thread. If the only argument we find for people not groking Perl is "I pity you". we are in a slippy slope.
12:20 QtPlatypus cognominal_: Why?
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12:21 theorbtwo I rather agree.
12:21 cognominal_ The happy few mentality is a dangerous one.
12:21 cognominal_ And it does not help to get a job doing what you like
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12:22 QtPlatypus People should use a lanaguge that maps to there brainspace.  Some people have unperlish brainspaces.  Forcing them to use perl is just as bad as using forcing a perler to use something non perl.
12:22 cognominal_ I am not advocating everyone to jump on our boat either :)
12:23 cognominal_ we almost have the language, we probably have to invent the media...
12:24 audreyt The Medium is the Message...
12:24 audreyt </McLuhan>
12:24 rgs P5 is overengineered too, but almost noone notices
12:24 rgs because it keeps dwimming
12:24 cognominal_ Like Woody Allen, /me pulls a Marshall McLuhan
12:25 cognominal_ p5 has been stretched over any reasonnable limit.
12:25 rgs we don't like being reasonable.
12:25 cognominal_ Considering the modesty of Perl1, it just proves that the initial concepts were right.
12:26 audreyt initial concepts, you mean like FORMATS? :)
12:26 theorbtwo We do, however, need to find a good niche on the slippery slope where we won't keep rolling downwards.
12:26 cognominal_ I don't know any language who started so modest and grew so big in compatible ways
12:26 audreyt er, uhm, BASIC
12:26 rgs FROMATS
12:28 cognominal_ apparently a good way to grow is to get infected by good functional memes?
12:29 audreyt well, anything far from the current gene pool is bound to be good
12:29 audreyt or shocking
12:29 audreyt most likely both
12:30 cognominal_ yea, that's my point, the Perl5 communauty was becoming shockingly inbred
12:30 cognominal_ s/Perl5/Core Perl5/
12:31 rgs well, evolving perl 5 is near to impossible
12:31 renormalist Sth completely different:   Is docs/Perl6/Overview.pod meant to be document how it will work in future or should it match to current Pugs possibilities? (I'm thinking about a regex example in it, that would still need a rx:P5 currently, but not in future, probably)
12:32 cognominal_ rgs: tu l'as dit. bouffi
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13:20 Limbic_Region Juerd ping
13:20 audreyt renormalist: huh, rx:P5?
13:21 audreyt renormalist: you can use real regexes today in both Overview.pod and pugs code
13:21 audreyt it's meant to be how it ought to work
13:22 Limbic_Region audreyt - pugs uses pcre for p5 regexen correct?
13:23 audreyt yup
13:23 audreyt breakfast, brb
13:23 Limbic_Region so only those regexen features supported by pcre are available to pugs - do you know if that's @larry's intention for p6?
13:23 Limbic_Region enjoy ;-)
13:23 audreyt eh pcre is a _superset_.
13:24 audreyt to p5
13:24 audreyt I havn't implemented the callback hook
13:24 audreyt but otherwise it should be a strict superset
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13:25 Limbic_Region by callback hook, I assume you mean ? and ?? code constructs
13:25 Limbic_Region or /e
13:25 audreyt yup
13:25 audreyt there is no /e
13:25 audreyt use
13:26 audreyt s:P5/.../{code}/
13:26 audreyt which is far cleaner
13:26 audreyt callback hook is actually quite trivial to do
13:26 audreyt but havn't seen any need yet
13:26 Limbic_Region ok - so by superset - you mean that pcre shouldn't choke on anything p5 is able to handle and some things p5 can't - pcre can?
13:27 audreyt yeah
13:27 audreyt like variable length lookbehind
13:27 audreyt p5 can't do that
13:27 Limbic_Region oh, well features were what I was thinking of - but that's nice too
13:27 Limbic_Region I was thinking more along the lines of hairy regexen which cause p5 to throw-up
13:28 audreyt nod. the bleadperl engine is much better
13:28 audreyt at not crashing the stack
13:28 Limbic_Region many of which were recently fixed (in bleed perl) when ...
13:28 Limbic_Region yeah - just what I was about to say
13:28 audreyt yeah, but PCRE should handle those fine too
13:28 Limbic_Region ok - so do you know the plan for p6?
13:28 audreyt the :P5 is specced to support p5 regexen
13:28 audreyt I imagine PCRE is good enough
13:29 audreyt on environments where we can't reliably bundled a libperl runtime
13:29 Limbic_Region I know japhy (IIRC) was working on a p5 regex parser which would theoretically allow p5 regexen to be done in rules
13:29 audreyt that's a possibility too.
13:29 audreyt but as I said, it should handle what the p5 unit test suite
13:29 audreyt tests its regex
13:29 audreyt at least
13:29 Limbic_Region *shrug* - doesn't really matter to me.  I am a regex neophyte anyway
13:29 audreyt and pcre I think does that.
13:29 Limbic_Region just wondering
13:30 audreyt k :)
13:30 audreyt brb
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13:40 Juerd Limbic_Region: pong
13:42 Limbic_Region did you change the hardcoding in cgi:irc intentionally or did something happen I should make you aware of?
13:42 Limbic_Region specifcally for #perl6 and #parrot
13:45 renormalist damn, now I missed the answers. Real regexes? I'm too slow for Pugs. Is there something special needed during compiling Pugs, eg. PUGS_EMBED="parrot"?
13:46 theorbtwo http://colabti.de/irclogger/ircl​ogger_log/perl6?date=2006-06-21 (start at the bottom).
13:47 Juerd Limbic_Region: That depends - what has changed?
13:48 Juerd timeout :) afk
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13:52 audreyt renormalist: no
13:52 audreyt renormalist: just put parrot in your ENV path
13:52 audreyt that's all you need to use real p6 regexes
13:52 audreyt as well as rules and tokens
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13:54 renormalist during compiling  pugs or at runtime? I had an old/defunct parrot during my last pugs-compile.In the meantime, parrot is ok.  Do I have to Recompile Pugs?
13:57 renormalist My initial problem is, that the example regex from Perl6/Overview.pod doesn't work for me:     $email ~~ /([^@]+)@(.+)/   while with rx:P5  it does match.
13:57 renormalist ?eval [email@hidden.address] ~~  /([^@]+)@(.+)/
13:57 evalbot_10746 Match.new(   ok => Bool::False,    from => 0,    to => 0,    str => "",    sub_pos => (),    sub_named => {} )
13:57 renormalist ?eval [email@hidden.address] ~~  rx:P5 /([^@]+)@(.+)/
13:57 evalbot_10746 Match.new(   ok => Bool::True,    from => 0,    to => 15,    str => [email@hidden.address]    sub_pos =>     (Match.new(        ok => Bool::True,         from => 0,         to => 4,         str => "affe",         sub_pos => (),         sub_named => {}      ),       Match.new(        ok => Bool::True,         from => 5,         to => 15,         str => "zomtec.org",         sub_pos => (),         sub_named => {}      )),    sub_named => {} )
14:00 Limbic_Region Juerd - sorry, got pulled away
14:00 audreyt at runtime
14:00 Limbic_Region Juerd - it is no longer hardcoded for #perl6 on freenode and #parrot on irc.perl.org
14:01 audreyt ?eval 'a@a' ~~ rx/([^@]+)\@(.+)/
14:01 evalbot_10746 Match.new(   ok => Bool::False,    from => 0,    to => 0,    str => "",    sub_pos => (),    sub_named => {} )
14:01 Limbic_Region IOW - it is now possible to select #perl6 on irc.perl.org
14:02 audreyt it's just syntax.
14:02 audreyt renormalist:
14:02 audreyt ?eval 'foo@bar' ~~ /(<-[@]>+)@(.+)/
14:02 Juerd Limbic_Region: That's weird.
14:02 evalbot_10746 Match.new(   ok => Bool::True,    from => 0,    to => 7,    str => "foo@bar",    sub_pos =>     (Match.new(        ok => Bool::True,         from => 0,         to => 3,         str => "foo",         sub_pos => (),         sub_named => {}      ),       Match.new(        ok => Bool::True,         from => 4,         to => 7,         str => "bar",         sub_pos => (),         sub_named => {}      )),    sub_named => {} )
14:02 audreyt the charclass syntax changed is all
14:03 Juerd I think the dist upgrade changed this back :(
14:03 audreyt instead of [^abc] write <-[abc]>
14:03 cognominal_ WOW?
14:03 Juerd Limbic_Region: When I have time, I will fix it.
14:03 cognominal_ IRL?
14:03 cognominal_ oops
14:03 Limbic_Region Juerd - well, you told me to let you know if anything about cgi:irc changed
14:03 Juerd <[]> sucks so much :(
14:03 audreyt [] rocks so much
14:03 Limbic_Region no worries Juerd - I know which goes with which
14:03 audreyt tradeoffs, tradeoffs
14:03 Juerd Limbic_Region: Yep, and it's important that I know this :)
14:04 renormalist audreyt: Nize. Works. Should I update Overview.pod to use that?
14:05 Juerd audreyt: Well, the way I would like the regex syntax to be, <> would be available :)
14:05 audreyt renormalist: please do
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14:08 svnbot6 r10786 | renormalist++ | - Overview.pod: corrected regex example
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14:11 audreyt renormalist++
14:11 * audreyt resumes chglogging and releng
14:12 audreyt fglock: update ChangeLog to reflect pX state?
14:12 audreyt bbiab
14:12 fglock audreyt: ok
14:12 fglock any idea on how to make p5 'use v6' to call a module?
14:13 audreyt use v6-pugs;
14:13 audreyt note the dash immediately after
14:13 audreyt that's all
14:13 fglock didn't work the first time I tried - will try again
14:13 audreyt try at cmdline
14:13 audreyt perl -e 'use v9-pugs'
14:14 fglock it should emit an error, right? I got no message
14:15 audreyt eh
14:15 fglock perl 5.8.7 here
14:15 audreyt you prolly already have v6.pm installed
14:15 audreyt try change that to v9
14:15 audreyt or v10
14:15 audreyt pugs ships with a stub v6.pm at this moment
14:15 audreyt feel free to change lib/v6.pm to call into lrep
14:15 audreyt that's what it was designed to do
14:16 fglock cool - thanks!
14:16 audreyt so I'm glad pX is at a state where it can become useful
14:16 audreyt yay
14:16 audreyt fglock++
14:16 fglock did you see hello_world.pl ?
14:16 fglock it runs already
14:16 audreyt yup :)
14:16 audreyt so please s/P6/v6/
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14:17 audreyt and have fun :)
14:17 audreyt &
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14:53 svnbot6 r10787 | fglock++ | Pugs-Compiler-Perl6 - s/use P6/use v6-pugs/
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14:59 svnbot6 r10790 | fglock++ | Pugs-Compiler-Perl6 - pass 01-sanity/02-counter.t
15:03 stevan audreyt: I could not agree more
15:04 stevan when Perl 6 comes out,.. everyday *will* be like Christmas!
15:04 fglock audreyt: P::C::P6::v6.pm will conflict with Inline::Pugs::v6.pm if both are installed
15:09 fglock we could have a main v6.pm interface that dispatches to an implementation
15:10 Limbic_Region what's the svn/svk command to report who made what change?
15:12 clkao blame
15:12 Limbic_Region thanks
15:14 svnbot6 r10791 | fglock++ | Pugs-Compiler-Perl6 - pass 01-sanity/03-equal.t
15:15 audreyt fglock: just kill the inline one
15:15 audreyt it's just stub.
15:15 audreyt "svk ann" is shorter than blame
15:15 audreyt and is more politically correct
15:15 audreyt "svk praise" if you don't mind typing
15:15 audreyt fglock: the inline one is a placeholder because PCP was not working
15:16 audreyt now that it is, simply take it off
15:16 audreyt use v6-pugs; # is just fine
15:16 audreyt to delegate to PCP, that is
15:16 fglock should I use Moose as the p5 target, or is this overkill?
15:17 audreyt I think Moose is the perfect p5 target
15:17 fglock use v6-moose
15:17 audreyt v6-pugs; should simply target moose
15:17 audreyt that should be implied
15:17 fglock ok
15:17 audreyt to take advantage of Moosee::Autobox and friends
15:18 audreyt stevan: glad you like my slides :)
15:18 audreyt 90% of it is existing material... but seriously rearranged
15:18 obra audreyt: I was very amused to see the pieces of that talk
15:20 stevan audreyt: it was very cool,.. kind of a greatest hits collection
15:20 stevan the Audrey Tang - Box Set if you will
15:20 stevan 289 pages of classic slides
15:20 audreyt and I maxed out the unicode use :)
15:20 stevan :)
15:21 * rgs waits for the dvd deluxe edition
15:21 * stevan will sell rgs one for 6 easy payments of $19.95 USD
15:21 stevan plus shipping and handling
15:21 stevan 1-800-I-WANT-PERL6
15:21 stevan operators are standing by
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15:22 stevan call now and we throw in a free Chicken Rotiseree
15:22 fglock do you have a web page?
15:23 fglock mmm chicken - lunch time &
15:29 stevan fglock: re: Moose::Autobox - not that the API does not 100% match the Perl 6 API, and it is very experimental and prone to change (most likely to be closer to Perl 6)
15:29 stevan s/- not/- note/
15:29 audreyt stevan: oh "subset" makes more sense than "subtype"
15:29 audreyt because subtype adds capability
15:29 audreyt and subsets takes away
15:29 stevan yeah true
15:31 stevan well in Moose it kind of does both
15:31 stevan the subtype is created (adding capability)
15:31 stevan but it restricts (taking away)
15:32 audreyt uh, no
15:32 audreyt in normal OO usage
15:33 audreyt a subtype is more like adding new behaviour to an existing type's behaviour
15:33 audreyt but moose subtypes add no behaviour of its own...
15:34 audreyt or does it?
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15:34 stevan well,.. it creates a new constraint
15:35 stevan its kind of odd,.. because there is no existing type system it can actually hook into
15:35 stevan and it cannot be enforced outside of accessors
15:36 stevan (well it can,... but its really verbose to do so)
15:36 stevan but the subtype does actually create a meta object
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15:40 audreyt nod
15:41 stevan moose "subtypes" will never be correct
15:41 stevan since we cannot hook into the existing type system
15:41 stevan or actually create our own
15:42 stevan (we could abuse tie(), but thats makes it less usable)
15:46 stevan maybe Moose::Autobox will lead to a sane type system overlay
15:46 * stevan really needs to start reading TaPL again
15:46 stevan I think I have read pretty much every MOP book in existsence at this point
15:46 TimToady nm
15:47 TimToady beware, look what it did to Audrey...
15:47 stevan :)
15:47 obra TimToady++
15:47 chip good day
15:47 TimToady Scheme and Lisp, eh?
15:47 TimToady I think it's a good direction, under the covers at least.
15:48 visq joined perl6
15:48 chip well, it's more just Scheme really.  But I hate to dis the Lisp brethren
15:48 TimToady Actually, all you have to do now is port Haskell...  :P
15:49 PerlJam and make it *fast*  :)
15:49 TimToady details, details...
15:49 chip Having learned a new verb tense doesn't automatically qualify me to talk about time travel
15:49 TimToady chip++
15:50 chip a fellow on #scheme wrote a nice description of how unwind-protect could be reasonably defined for Scheme (where "I'm leaving the scope" is not a simple concept), and that clued me in
15:51 chip Taylor Campbell  http://mumble.net/~campbell/blog.txt   most of the content is silly, oddly enough
15:54 chip audreyt: can you use the equivalent of dynamic-wind productively, and do you agree that the third thunk (for "the scope has been left once and for all") is useful?
15:54 * chip actually isn't too sure about that one
15:55 PerlJam chip: being an ignorant non-language-implementor-but-having-​implemented-one-or-two-in-the-past, it seemed reasonable to me when I read your email.
15:57 chip PerlJam: struck me the same way :-)  Thing is, the Scheme primitive only supports the "enter" and "leave" thunks; the third one, for "the last continuation has left the building" is actually kind of the odd one out.  For example, if I've been holding a continuation, and through a GC cascade that last continuation is discarded, that event will trigger the "elvis" callback, at an obviously non-obvious time
15:58 chip it's the closest thing to "finally" you can get when you have all those continuations floating around
16:01 PerlJam I wonder if there are instances in the wild of where Schemers have implemented a work around to get those semantics.
16:01 chip it's easy enough with a closure and GC.  Which maybe is my answer :-)
16:02 TimToady there's a sense in which that third thunk is the Monadic thunk, in the Haskell sense.  It's what controls the side effects that aren't undoable.
16:03 TimToady as in a QM computer that's reversible until you try to observe it, the third thunk is the "observer".
16:04 TimToady all QM is just quantum foam plus persistent accounting errors.  We're the accounting errors...  :)
16:05 * chip narrowly avoids quoting the Matrix architect's atrociously clunky monologue
16:06 fglock what is the perl 6 way to say: use v6; print 6; use v5; print 5; use v6;
16:07 audreyt ...exactly that?
16:07 chip fglock: system <</usr/bin/perl -e>>, "print 5"   ?
16:07 * chip kids
16:08 TimToady druther have something that looks well scoped, like we did with file-scoped packages vs embedded package blocks...
16:08 audreyt clkao: I havn't used the 3rd form of unwind
16:09 audreyt s/clkao/chip/
16:10 chip audreyt: there is no third form in the real one
16:11 TimToady package perl5:foo { ... } or some such
16:11 chip audreyt: I introduced it since I figured people would want it
16:11 ingy morning
16:11 audreyt ingy: hey!
16:12 ingy hi audreyt
16:12 TimToady hey ingy, I don't care what everyone says, I think you're okay.
16:12 ingy are you going to ms today?
16:12 TimToady What's in Mississippi? :)
16:13 ingy TimToady: thanks
16:13 snowstalker joined perl6
16:13 ingy a hillbilly monopoly
16:15 pmurias joined perl6
16:15 pmurias hi
16:16 audreyt ingy: yes, probably going to hack CLR<->PIL today
16:17 ingy cool
16:17 pmurias fglock: can i run add-svn-props on PCP6?
16:18 iblechbot joined perl6
16:18 audreyt ingy: so how's your sched looklike in the next 72hr?
16:19 ingy I leave for Chicago in 30 hours. free until then
16:22 audreyt hrm
16:22 audreyt I don't know... pickmeup and meet for dinner?
16:23 ingy at the hotel?
16:23 ingy I remember how to get there... what time
16:23 snowstalker Hello all. If I know Perl 5, and know zilch about Perl 6, where can I start to contribute a little? :-)
16:24 ingy snowstalker: here
16:24 ingy :)
16:24 TimToady the buck starts here, as it were...
16:24 snowstalker ingy, Great. At least I started on the right foot ;-)
16:25 snowstalker TimToady, Greetings :)
16:25 fglock pmurias: sure
16:25 TimToady welcome!
16:25 audreyt ingy: well, actually we can meet the main campus building 35
16:25 TimToady biab &
16:26 audreyt snowstalker: you have a commit bit, right? )
16:26 audreyt :)
16:26 snowstalker audreyt, yep :-D
16:26 audreyt ok. talk to fglock here as I'm about to run :)
16:26 snowstalker audreyt, although not sure how to use it yet
16:26 pmurias snowstalker: a perl5 implementaion can be found in misc/pX
16:27 snowstalker audreyt, okay
16:27 pmurias although it's (much) less advanced then the haskell one
16:27 fglock snowstalker: hi :)
16:27 audreyt ingy: do you know how to drive to main campus?
16:27 ingy audreyt: I don't know where that is.
16:28 snowstalker pmurias, All I need is perl 5 to run whatever is in misc/pX ?
16:28 ingy msg me an address
16:28 snowstalker fglock, Hello :)
16:28 audreyt ingy: "1 Microsoft Way"
16:29 ingy gah
16:29 fglock snowstalker: cd to Pugs-Compiler-Perl6, and perl -Ilib hello_world.pl (you'll need PadWalker and Parse::YAPP at least, I think)
16:30 snowstalker fglock, ok I need to install PadWalker, will start there :)
16:30 fglock you can install Pugs::Compiler::Regex from CPAN, it will get PadWalker
16:30 fglock Pugs::Compiler::Rule, actually
16:30 snowstalker fglock, ok
16:30 ingy audreyt: what time?
16:31 audreyt ingy: does 5pm sound about right?
16:31 ingy ok. will you have irc there?
16:32 audreyt no... use cellphone
16:32 ingy ok, I'll ring you once and you call back
16:32 audreyt 'k
16:33 ingy for this job...
16:34 ingy we should have shotguns
16:36 fglock oops - I lost my ChangeLog changes
16:42 svnbot6 r10792 | pmurias++ | fixed line endings
16:42 pmurias fglock: do you like Attribute::Handlers?
16:49 pmurias fglock: sorry i screw Emitter/Perl5.pm
16:49 svnbot6 r10793 | fglock++ | Pugs-Compiler-Rule swallows Pugs-Compiler-Precedence
16:49 pmurias fixing it...
16:49 pasteling "snowstalker" at 221.134.203.185 pasted "Pugs-Compiler-Perl6 doesn't compile :-)" (14 lines, 1.3K) at http://sial.org/pbot/17896
16:50 snowstalker fglock, I tried running perl -Ilib helloworld.pl but I get an error, is that normal? It's at http://sial.org/pbot/17896
16:50 pmurias run Makefile.pl from Pugs::Compiler::Rule
16:50 pmurias and make
16:50 pmurias or something similar
16:51 fglock please svn up again - I just changed Makefile.PL
16:52 snowstalker pmurias, When I try to install Pugs::Compiler::Rule using command line 'cpan', it says   ftp://ftp.perl.org/pub/CPAN/authors/id/F/​FG/FGLOCK/Pugs-Compiler-Rule-0.05.tar.gz
16:52 snowstalker LWP failed with code[404] message[File 'Pugs-Compiler-Rule-0.05.tar.gz' not found]
16:52 snowstalker fglock, oh okay
16:54 penk left perl6
16:54 snowstalker fglock, I'm at rev 10794, but still see the same error...
16:54 kolibrie fglock: I'm getting the same on feather in my homedir
16:55 fglock checking...
16:56 * kolibrie wonders if it is because perl5 is trying to use Pugs/Grammar/Rule before a .pmc of it has been made
16:57 fglock perl Makefile.PL / make should take care of the .pmc file
16:57 fglock it works here
16:57 kolibrie fglock: so first go into Pugs-Compiler-Rule and perl Makefile.PL
16:58 kolibrie and then perl -Ilib hello_world.pl ?
16:58 fglock yes, in PC-P6 - but pmurias needs to commit a fix :)
16:59 * kolibrie twiddles his thumbs
17:00 * snowstalker did what kolibrie said but sees new errors such as "use" not allowed in expression ...
17:01 kolibrie snowstalker: this is all bleeding edge, btw
17:01 penk joined perl6
17:02 kolibrie fglock: is that what pmurias is fixing?
17:02 snowstalker kolibrie, I get that now. It's just that Day 1 in this p6 world is confusing to me :). Still wondering what a .pmc file is ... etc , Can you tell me which docs I should be reading for all of this?
17:02 fglock yes - a svn message slipped into the source file
17:03 kolibrie snowstalker: this particular hello_world.pl was only written yesterday
17:03 svnbot6 r10795 | fglock++ | Pugs-Compiler-Rule - TODOize 2 tests
17:03 fglock snowstalker: .pmc is a perl5 reserved file type for "compiled perl"
17:04 kolibrie snowstalker: hmm, the synopses have a lot about Perl 6 the language
17:04 fglock the perl6-to-perl5 compiler takes a .pl source and generates a .pmc, which contains perl5 code
17:05 kolibrie snowstalker: a lot of the pugs, particularly the pX part, are not documented so well, and change from week to week.
17:05 audreyt snowstalker: btw, add yourself to AUTHORS
17:06 kolibrie snowstalker: hanging out here helps, and reading http://pugs.blogs.com
17:06 snowstalker kolibrie, Yesterday? Damn! That *is* cutting-edge
17:06 snowstalker fglock, what does the "mc" stand for ?
17:06 fglock fixed
17:07 kolibrie snowstalker: .pm (perl module) -> .pmc (perl module compiled)
17:07 svnbot6 r10796 | fglock++ | Pugs-Compiler-Perl6 - lib/Pugs/Emitter/Perl6/Perl5.pm fixed
17:07 fglock maybe "perl module compiled"?
17:07 snowstalker kolibrie, I'm looking at  http://svn.openfoundry.org​/pugs/docs/getting_started
17:07 fglock please retry hello_world.pl
17:07 snowstalker audreyt, but I haven't even done anything yet :)
17:07 snowstalker kolibrie, aah ok
17:07 snowstalker fglock, ok
17:08 pmurias flock: you were faster with the commit :) i got an merge message from svk
17:08 pmurias s/flock/fglock/
17:09 fglock pmurias: no problem :)
17:09 audreyt snowstalker: that's a good way to test commit
17:09 snowstalker fglock, yippee, It works :)
17:09 audreyt customarily the first checkin
17:09 snowstalker audreyt, oh okay :)
17:09 fglock snowstalker: look at the hello_world.pmc file
17:10 snowstalker fglock, btw it said unrecognized token ''
17:10 snowstalker at pugs/misc/pX/Common/Pugs-Compiler​-Perl6/lib/Pugs/Grammar/Perl6.pm line 14
17:10 pmurias fglock: what tests are supposed to pass
17:11 pmurias ?
17:11 fglock that's just a warning - it had many more yesterday :)
17:11 snowstalker fglock, so it converted p6 to p5, if i understand it correctly ?
17:11 snowstalker fglock, hehe
17:11 fglock the 3 first tests in 01-sanity should pass
17:11 fglock snowstalker: yes!
17:11 snowstalker fglock, gr8
17:12 fglock try running hello_world.pl again - it will reuse the .pmc file
17:14 snowstalker fglock, yeah it looks like it did because it didn't give the warning again
17:14 audreyt fglock: want to carry your journal over or mirror it at pugs.blogs.com?
17:15 fglock audreyt: which you find better
17:15 bernhard joined perl6
17:15 audreyt either is fine but I'd like you (and also any interested #perl6'ers0 to cowrite pugs.blogs.com
17:16 audreyt a journal bit is in your inbox now :)
17:16 fglock ok!
17:19 svnbot6 r10797 | snowstalker++ | Adding my name here because audreyt told me to ( http://colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_log/​perl6?date=2006-06-21,Wed&amp;sel=340#l550 ) :-)
17:19 fglock audreyt: is it ok to remove the shebang from .t files? it tells p5 to run pugs...
17:19 fglock or is there a workaround?
17:22 audreyt killall #! lines i'd say
17:22 audreyt or change them to a neutral #!perl6
17:25 pmurias fglock: why does generating the .pmc take so much time?
17:26 fglock pmurias: it is using the old backtracking rules - :ratchet can't run all the syntax needed yet
17:26 fglock audreyt: ok
17:27 pmurias what else is needed in :ratchet?
17:28 fglock hashes and arrays - maybe some extra details
17:29 fglock currently ratchet and non-ratchet rules have problems calling each other, but that's not a problem if you convert everything to non-ratchet
17:29 frederico joined perl6
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17:33 snowstalker Are the HTML versions of the synopses at http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/synopsis.html kept up to date with the svn versions ?
17:35 audreyt yup
17:37 amnesiac joined perl6
17:42 ingy audreyt: gnip
17:43 * ingy finally clues in on the meaning of Gnip Gnop (after 30 some years)
17:44 TimToady snowstalker: they should be at most 6 hours out of date, last I knew.
17:45 Southen joined perl6
17:45 audreyt ingy: gnop
17:45 audreyt ingy: maybe 5:30p is better
17:45 audreyt (I'm just about to leave hotel now)
17:45 audreyt going to hack on Microsoft Phoenix it seems
17:46 audreyt that codename seems to be popular
17:46 snowstalker audreyt, TimToady, ok cool
17:46 audreyt hopefully it will not get changed to Microsoft Firebird ;)
17:46 ingy audreyt: maybe just call me when you get back to the hotel room
17:46 ingy instead
17:46 pmurias fglock: my $fixity = $n->{fixity} doesn't seem to work when put in _emit
17:46 audreyt ok ok.
17:47 ingy we don't have to bind on dinner or else
17:47 ingy but if you feel like hanging out, I'll gladly come over
17:48 * ingy attempts to minimize stress
17:48 fglock pmurias: some nodes don't have a fixity
17:48 ingy audreyt: I wanted to ask you a q, I msged you over to the right
17:49 audreyt I didn't see it
17:49 audreyt try again
17:50 Ymmv joined perl6
17:51 pmurias it is undefined for *all* nodes
17:51 pmurias i implemented a hash based dispath for those that have
17:52 pmurias but can't get it to work because of that
17:55 pmurias looked at P::E::R::P5, there's pretty quoting in there
17:55 svnbot6 r10798 | fglock++ | Pugs-Compiler-Perl6 - implemented 'if'; but parser error in 04-if.t
17:57 pmurias it could be cleaned up with ruby style interpolation
17:57 fglock pmurias: example?
17:57 pmurias eq. "#{$var}"
17:58 pmurias or
17:58 pmurias "#{expr}" more generally
17:59 fglock I'm ok with that
17:59 FurnaceBoy joined perl6
18:00 pmurias will do it later
18:01 ingy fglock: ping
18:01 pmurias bbiab
18:02 fglock ingy: pong
18:03 ingy why is P-C-R/{Makefile|blib|pm_to_blib} checked in?
18:03 ingy I'm getting conflicts on them
18:04 fglock probably by mistake - please remove them
18:04 fglock thanks
18:04 ingy ok
18:05 nothingmuch ingy: møøø
18:05 nothingmuch merlyn complained about MC btw
18:05 nothingmuch he said that i should have written 'use tt' with Inline
18:05 ingy he's wrong
18:05 nothingmuch yeah, i told him so
18:05 nothingmuch but he does raise a small issue
18:05 ingy Inline will use MC
18:05 ingy :)
18:05 nothingmuch =)
18:05 nothingmuch http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=556022
18:06 nothingmuch "which already has support for parameter passing"
18:06 ingy so eventually he'll be right
18:06 nothingmuch that thing
18:06 nothingmuch no he won't, 'use tt' is not introducing foreign functions in a nice way
18:06 nothingmuch but meh, details
18:06 nothingmuch anyway, can we iron out the way params are passed on the use line?
18:07 nothingmuch also, if i write a "touch_my_pmc" script, that takes a tarbsall and increments the mtime of the PMCs, would you roll it into the dist?
18:07 nothingmuch that really confused me for a short while
18:08 ingy sure
18:08 ingy params can only be passed as a string...
18:08 nothingmuch due to the filter system's limitations?
18:08 ingy unless it is the *first* compiler module used
18:09 nothingmuch oh
18:09 nothingmuch can you explain why?
18:09 ingy yes
18:09 ingy you see my boy...
18:10 ingy the whole MC process is invoked by the first caller (which coincidentally gets passed a list of params)...
18:11 ingy MC then plays god and parses the rest of the module and calls all the compilers and stitches up the result. so Perl mever even calls the other use lines.
18:11 nothingmuch ... because the moment 'use SomeFilter' is done it gets the rest of the file?
18:12 nothingmuch it can't say where to stop filtering?
18:12 ingy no not really
18:13 ingy because it needs to filter everything to create a pmc
18:13 nothingmuch hmm
18:14 nothingmuch because otherwise the pmc thing won't know when it's done?
18:14 fglock bbiab &
18:15 ingy well the filter really throws away all the lines (up to the data section)
18:15 ingy and rereads the file from disk
18:15 nothingmuch oh
18:16 ingy because it even needs the lines *before* it was invoked
18:16 ingy to be part of the pmc
18:16 DaGo joined perl6
18:17 nothingmuch hmm
18:17 nothingmuch conjecture:
18:17 nothingmuch you open the file and keep it in some closure var
18:17 ingy then after compilation it chops off the head number of lines from the result and passes the back to FUC
18:17 nothingmuch import/filter_add and filter_del are used for 'use' and 'no'
18:18 nothingmuch and another filter after that dups everything the the pmc file
18:18 nothingmuch filling the gaps?
18:18 nothingmuch i'm really scared about low DWIM factor for 'use some_filter $global'
18:19 nothingmuch so it might be worth it =/
18:19 ingy well we could warn if we see $ in the params :P
18:20 nothingmuch okay, so use some_filter foo()'
18:20 nothingmuch it's endless
18:20 nothingmuch give me 5 mins
18:20 nothingmuch and i'll get back to you with an idea
18:20 ludan joined perl6
18:20 ingy ok
18:21 nxu7 joined perl6
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18:40 fglock pmurias: re time to generate .pmc - it compiles the whole p6 grammar every time
18:40 fglock there is no grammar cache currently
18:46 svnbot6 r10799 | fglock++ | Pugs-Compiler-Perl6 - pass 04-if.t
18:46 ruoso joined perl6
18:47 gaal nothingmuch++ # random beingamooseness
18:52 fglock nothingmuch: does Moose aim to approximate the p6 grammar?
18:57 * nothingmuch whores karma
18:57 nothingmuch fglock: not the grammar, but the feel
18:57 nothingmuch has $.foo is rw;
18:57 nothingmuch has foo => (
18:57 nothingmuch    is => "rw",
18:57 nothingmuch );
18:57 ingy hi nothingmuch
18:57 ingy did you come up with anything?
18:57 nothingmuch hi ingy
18:57 nothingmuch i think so
18:57 nothingmuch but phone confused me
18:57 nothingmuch either way it's too sick to do now
18:57 nothingmuch we'll have a chat at the conf
18:58 nothingmuch and then we'll implement it like the javascript hashcash idea
18:58 ingy I think for now, I should just document how it works
18:59 ingy that it doesn't take a live list of args
18:59 ingy mostly what I'd envisioned was that it would take no args.
18:59 ingy use this; no that;
18:59 ingy etc
19:00 ingy that was the spirit.
19:00 miyagawa joined perl6
19:00 ingy because these lines are compiler invocations
19:00 ingy you could even argue that they shouldn't take live args
19:01 ingy because those will change from invocation to invocation
19:01 ingy but the compile should always be the same
19:01 nothingmuch heh
19:01 nothingmuch the womenbof thrtead is silly
19:02 ingy MenBOF!!!
19:02 nothingmuch well
19:02 nothingmuch BEGIN time is vague in Perl
19:02 nothingmuch but i see what you mean
19:02 nothingmuch that said
19:02 nothingmuch qw/..../ is nicer than ["...", "..."]
19:02 nothingmuch so i want some hack for TT
19:04 ingy either one you have to parse though...
19:04 ingy we can talk more at yapc...
19:04 nothingmuch yeah
19:22 justatheory joined perl6
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20:12 audreyt_ms joined perl6
20:12 audreyt_ms Greetings from behind the restrictive firewall :)
20:13 ZuluOne evening
20:14 xerox The Great Wall?
20:14 audreyt_ms the MS corpnet firewall, as it is
20:17 Limbic_Region how much time did it figure out how to get here from there?
20:17 Limbic_Region nevermind - you are cgi:irc ing
20:19 audreyt_ms yup :)
20:19 audreyt_ms so, no effort at all
20:20 Limbic_Region oh, out of curiosity - was your entry into the US any less problematic this time?
20:21 audreyt_ms was actually very easy
20:21 audreyt_ms though they still did a full baggage check
20:21 audreyt_ms they are certainly much more polite :)
20:22 Limbic_Region glad to hear it - perhaps you might not be so apprehensive about visiting in the future
20:23 audreyt_ms we'll see :)
20:23 audreyt_ms but yeah, perhaps I am less terrorist-looking now
20:25 Limbic_Region well - more likely, your reservations didn't involve any last minute changes but you didn't hear me say that
20:25 Limbic_Region or type it for that matter
20:27 audreyt_ms hm, last time I didn't change it at last minute either...
20:28 Vutral joined perl6
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20:50 svnbot6 r10800 | audreyt++ | * remove our v6.pm to not clash with the one in misc/pX.
20:50 svnbot6 r10800 | audreyt++ |   (eventually I'd like Pugs to install that one by default)
20:52 cmarcelo joined perl6
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20:55 svnbot6 r10801 | fglock++ | Pugs-Compiler-Perl6 - 'sub' fix
20:55 fglock joined perl6
20:56 obra Who's resposnsible for all the wonerfulness that is the pugs smoke server?
21:05 leo obra: $ svn blame util/smokeserv/smokeserv-server.pl
21:05 leo I think
21:05 obra sorry. "the whole set of tools"
21:07 leo e.g. http://search.cpan.org/~nuffin/Test-TAP-HTMLM​atrix-0.05/lib/Test/TAP/HTMLMatrix.pm#AUTHORS
21:08 leo http://search.cpan.org/~gaal/Bundle-Pugs-​SmokeKit-0.04/lib/Bundle/Pugs/SmokeKit.pm
21:09 leo see also http://smoke.parrotcode.org/smoke/ ;)
21:10 fglock joined perl6
21:11 audreyt_ms fglock: I just checked in a new, easier-to-manage v6.pm
21:11 obra We've been doing some fun internal stuff to get ourselves a pugs-based smokeserver
21:11 pmurias g'night
21:11 svnbot6 r10802 | audreyt++ | * add a new v6.pm that uses Module::Compile :)
21:13 fglock audreyt_ms: thanks! did it work well for non-modules?
21:16 elmex joined perl6
21:17 audreyt_ms fglock: yup
21:18 audreyt_ms I wonder if instead of .pmc
21:18 audreyt_ms having it as .pl.compiled
21:18 audreyt_ms or .plc
21:18 audreyt_ms because you could've have another same named .pm in the dir
21:19 audreyt_ms sounds sane? I'll check it in
21:19 fglock sure
21:19 fglock how about .t? .tc?
21:20 audreyt_ms see commit msg :)
21:20 audreyt_ms (yes)
21:21 svnbot6 r10803 | audreyt++ | * instead of .pmc, use .plc for .pl files, .tc for .t files, etc
21:21 svnbot6 r10804 | audreyt++ | * v6.pm: localize $@ before entering p5eval context.
21:22 nxu7 left perl6
21:23 nothingmuch http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/thirst-for-​knowledge-may-be-opium-craving-10849.html
21:35 audreyt_ms Interestingly, the VB->PIL->Javascript plan will give Pugs a native code compiler backend as well
21:35 svnbot6 r10805 | Sage++ | First version of translation program
21:35 audreyt_ms the same one as used by MSVC
21:35 audreyt_ms and it's even compatible with Rotor
21:35 TimToady Sage++
21:35 audreyt_ms (which means BSD license all the way)
21:36 audreyt_ms ooh Sage
21:36 * audreyt_ms checks it out
21:41 ZuluOne from nothingmuch's link, "mate selection correlates closely with perceived intelligence"
21:41 svnbot6 r10806 | audreyt++ | * translate.hs - add svn properties; fix the nested if/else
21:41 svnbot6 r10806 | audreyt++ |   to use a proper case expression, as requested in comment
21:44 penk joined perl6
21:47 svnbot6 r10807 | lwall++ | s/oeprator/operator/
21:47 svnbot6 r10808 | fglock++ | v6.pm cleanup
21:56 svnbot6 r10809 | audreyt++ | * translate.hs - stylistic Haskell cleanup; use Parsec "try" instead
21:56 svnbot6 r10809 | audreyt++ |   of fully qualified name; use case expressions instead of if/else
21:56 fglock does Moose has subroutine parameter binding or signatures?
21:57 spinclad is MSIL <-> PIL indeed going to go both ways?
21:58 audreyt_ms actually it's MSIL <-> CIL <-> PIL now
21:58 spinclad a crossover at which to trade front- and back-ends
21:58 audreyt_ms CIL being the MSVC intermediate language
21:58 audreyt_ms it's far easier to work with
21:58 audreyt_ms MSIL too baroque
21:58 audreyt_ms and CIL is common denominator so to speak
21:58 audreyt_ms as it's closer to GIMPLE
21:58 svnbot6 r10810 | fglock++ | PC-P6 - sub declarations; no parameter list yet
21:59 audreyt_ms also it has this wonderful Grand Unified Retargettable Language thing
21:59 audreyt_ms which makes parsing and emitting object languages (like PIR, MSIL assembly, etc) trivial
21:59 audreyt_ms so it's a nice midpoint
21:59 audreyt_ms probably going to write Haskell bindings using cpphs
22:00 TimToady GURL power...
22:00 audreyt_ms indeed
22:00 audreyt_ms going to do some tree comparison in the design meeting next hour
22:00 spinclad would PIL -> CIL -> PIR make sense in the next go around then?
22:00 audreyt_ms not sure yet
22:01 fglock audreyt_ms: there is a big community around Mono here - it would probably be a nice talk in CONISLI
22:01 audreyt_ms people here are not using CIL at all really, it being a MSVC technology instead of a CLR one
22:01 audreyt_ms where "here" means "here in the SQL building with CLR/VB folks"
22:02 spinclad and BSD licensed?  amazing,
22:02 audreyt_ms so trying to gather more info in the meantime
22:02 spinclad s/,$/./
22:02 audreyt_ms Rotor is BSD licensed; the CIL is apparently open as an IL
22:03 audreyt_ms the actual tools -- not clear at the moment -- certainly the entire Phoenix chain is noncommercial shared-source -- which is not good enough -- but the Hs binding itself can be BSD
22:03 audreyt_ms will report back in a more coherent fashion after meeting
22:04 * fglock looks for a p5 module that implement named parameters
22:05 audreyt_ms Params::Validate?
22:05 audreyt_ms is now known as audreyt_
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22:09 fglock I mean, at the syntax level
22:11 fglock there is Perl6::Parameters, but it is a source filter
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22:32 svnbot6 r10811 | fglock++ | PC-P6 - stub routine for param binding
22:32 Juerd There was one that hijacked prototypes iirc
22:35 Juerd Can't find it
22:44 svnbot6 r10812 | fglock++ | PC-P6 - fixed parameter list AST
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