Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-07-01

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
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00:28 audreyt rehi
00:49 nothingmuch 3rehi audreyt
00:50 Juerd Hello
00:50 audreyt moose
00:53 TreyHarris audreyt: do you use Terminal.app?  I can't figure out how to type any non-ascii chars in it, i just hear beeps when i'm at the pugs prompt and try
00:54 audreyt ...I can't either.
00:54 TreyHarris ok. :-)
00:54 audreyt try iterm?
00:56 TreyHarris no beeps, but no chars either :-)
01:03 audreyt mmmm.
01:04 TreyHarris (alt-\ is left double bracket, and alt-| is right)
01:07 TreyHarris ah well.  back in a few hours...
01:07 TreyHarris &
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01:42 nothingmuch Juerd: pinfg
01:42 Juerd nothingmuch: ponfg...
01:43 * Juerd wonders if it was a trick question.
01:43 Juerd A rhetorical trick question at that.
01:43 nothingmuch dfo yfou knfow whfere tfo makef fa blackf caffepressf tffshirt?
01:43 nothingmuch disclaimer: one handed typing is bad for your temper
01:44 Juerd Itf fwas a befta.
01:45 Juerd Dunfno iff ift'sf stfill thfere
01:46 nothingmuch http://www.befta.com/ doesn't seem to sell tshirts
01:46 lambdabot Title: "www.befta.com"
01:47 Juerd fhefhe
01:49 Juerd Founfd ift: http://www.cafyepressf.com​/cp/serfvifces/newbflacfk
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02:48 svnbot6 r11047 | sanug++ | chromatic's PHEME diagram. Hyoer-Linked compilation overview diagram
02:51 svnbot6 r11048 | sanug++ | Allison's Punie diagram, Audrey's Perl 5 diagram
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03:28 TimToady we're back online...
03:30 svnbot6 r11049 | clkao++ |  r14906@ab:  clkao | 2006-06-30 21:52:48 -0500
03:30 svnbot6 r11049 | clkao++ |  Data::Bind::_forget_unlocal, installing temporary symbol.
03:30 svnbot6 r11049 | clkao++ |  This allows binding &code into subs.
03:30 svnbot6 r11050 | clkao++ |  r14907@ab:  clkao | 2006-06-30 21:53:22 -0500
03:30 svnbot6 r11050 | clkao++ |  Merge from perl5/PC-P6, with parameter-binding fixes.
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04:17 audreyt ingy: http://www.nntp.perl.org/gro​up/perl.perl5.porters/114522
04:17 lambdabot Title: "nntp.perl.org - perl.perl5.porters (114522)"
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04:30 gaal remoose
04:30 * gaal returns from a fun long bike ride
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04:34 audreyt yo!
04:34 gaal heya audreyt! sorry for disappearing midnode, I was abducted by fixed point comb^W^Wgear bikes
04:35 audreyt that's fine :)
04:35 audreyt we still gotta finish it somehow
04:35 audreyt but I think I need to crash soonish
04:36 gaal okay so tomorrow on trans-1hr-tz hackathoning then the day after in boston
04:40 gaal nothingmuch: ping
05:04 svnbot6 r11051 | clkao++ | Correct packages for the v6 compiled scripts.
05:04 svnbot6 r11052 | clkao++ | Support some calling capture emittion with Data::Bind.
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05:25 svnbot6 r11053 | lwall++ | Different take on atomic syntax.
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05:46 audreyt fglock:
05:46 audreyt the point example changed in my slide
05:46 audreyt TimToady said that even in the method body
05:46 audreyt you can't say $.x=0
05:46 audreyt and expect it to work with $.x is readonly
05:46 audreyt have to say $!x=0
05:47 audreyt so how about just translating $!x=0 to $self->{x}=0
05:47 clkao data::bind is on CPAN
05:47 audreyt and $.x=0 always to $self->x(0) ?
05:47 audreyt clkao: !!
05:47 obra clkao++
05:47 audreyt but not svk? :)
05:47 clkao svk was released a few hours ago
05:47 audreyt sugoi
05:56 clkao also app::cli with real sign
05:56 clkao ature
06:00 obra sugoi
06:01 gaal audreyt: nothingmuch thinks ast nodes for control statements±Åtements should be like foreign vals
06:02 audreyt gaal: Prims, you mean?
06:02 gaal so that DSLs that have their own user defined structures produce asts that retain some sort of semantic information
06:02 audreyt but th questino is, do we call them with the full calling convention
06:03 audreyt or are then "special forms" and bypass that
06:03 audreyt s/then/they/
06:03 audreyt or am I missing some other solution?
06:04 gaal if i understood his argument, representing them as desugared calls/applications prevents manipulators that do know aboutt he DSL in question from easily working on them
06:04 audreyt but if you have DSL you already override the statement_control:<if>
06:04 audreyt macros
06:04 audreyt lexically
06:04 audreyt at parse time
06:04 audreyt to gen another tree
06:05 gaal so he wants something like data Expression = ExpVariable | ExpValue | ...blah | ExpControl
06:05 svnbot6 r11054 | sanug++ | Added Hyper-link for Tree Grammar Compiler
06:05 svnbot6 r11054 | sanug++ | Will transmit PDF each time this is updated.
06:05 gaal and data Control = ExpCond | ExpWhile | ExpForeign
06:06 audreyt that is fine with mean except each constructor will take more stuff
06:06 audreyt but sure
06:06 gaal for him doing it the way you just said is a little like constant folding happening too early
06:06 gaal yes of course
06:07 gaal his point about foreign here being that the new control structures must knowhow to apply themselves
06:07 audreyt and ExpForeign as trapdoor is fine
06:07 audreyt I agree. his point is floating, fixed, and power
06:08 * audreyt goes preparing for sleep
06:08 audreyt bbiab
06:08 gaal okay, great. So I don't mind to have ContCond | ContWhile | ContGoto etc. for all the things we can think of now
06:08 gaal plus the foreign trapdoor
06:08 audreyt k
06:09 gaal and this being lifted means that transformers that don't care about control in detail can eaisly patmatch over them
06:10 audreyt all excellent points. please simply commit
06:10 gaal anymoose good night, I'm off to bed too soon
06:10 gaal play
06:10 gaal okay
06:10 audreyt plsu
06:10 audreyt okay
06:15 TreyHarris anybody know, if i want to use moose, should i use 0.05 or 0.09_03?  it's marked devel, but it hasn't changed in two months...
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06:20 audreyt 009 definitely
06:20 audreyt and push stevan to releas 0.10
06:20 audreyt maybe assign him a hiveminder ticket :)
06:21 TreyHarris :-D
06:22 obra :P
06:24 TreyHarris i haven't been invited to hiveminder though
06:25 audreyt you have a commit bit?
06:25 TreyHarris yes
06:26 audreyt a hiveminder invitation is on its way to you
06:26 TreyHarris ok :-)
06:27 gaal are application/call Expression or Control? I lean to the latter
06:28 gaal basically anything that changes flow i guess
06:29 audreyt sure, but assign/bind are still exp
06:29 gaal yeah. deref too
06:30 audreyt k.
06:30 * audreyt waves and sleeps &
06:30 gaal nighty night
06:30 gaal have a safe trip tomorrow
06:33 * gaal wonders if Ctx CtxSlurpy (x::Expression)@(ExpDeref (v :: Value) is correct
06:33 gaal but has droopy eyelids. tomorrow...
06:38 svnbot6 r11055 | gaal++ |  r11148@sike:  roo | 2006-07-01 01:35:07 -0500
06:38 svnbot6 r11055 | gaal++ |  * p6ast: data Control for expressions having effect on flow.
06:38 svnbot6 r11055 | gaal++ |    These include a trapdoor for new DSL control statements
06:38 svnbot6 r11055 | gaal++ |    (nothingmuch++)
06:38 gaal invite ininשe accepted, to create an account? I don't have a beta password
06:39 gaal anymoose, sleep. &
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07:45 xerox gaal mismatched parens (:
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08:12 svnbot6 r11056 | sanug++ | Added directory to hold image-mapped HTML files with jpg's for Perl 6 Compilation diagrams - allows HyperText traversal of diagrams
08:22 Aankh|Clone is now known as Aankhen``
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10:01 QtPlatypus ~
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11:26 tacocat Morning?  Whats the "best" list to subscribe to for Perl6 Documentation.  I was sucked into synapsis review during the hack-a-thon and would like to get my work posted.
11:27 theorbtwo tacocat: perl6-language, I'd say.
11:28 tacocat Good enough...  Now to find out if it's any good...
11:29 tacocat I found reviewing the synapsis a great way to learn about some of the language but perhaps a little convoluted because the text is "raw".
11:30 theorbtwo Oh!  You want to write documentation aimed at users?
11:30 theorbtwo You might want perl6-language.
11:31 xerox audreyt: what editor are you using in osx?
11:31 tacocat Yes, that's the idea...  Considering I know little/nothing about C, C++, Perl6 and am reasonable at Perl5 it seemed about the best place.
11:32 tacocat Uri, with all his charm, convinced me this was the way to perl salvation for me.
11:34 theorbtwo Er, you might want perl6-user(s?)
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11:43 tacocat I suppose I could try them both, thanks.
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12:40 ZuluOne I'm not a great fan of p6u.
12:40 ZuluOne But then, I never like user lists.
12:41 ZuluOne I'm apparently about as autistic as you can get without actually being autistic, so while I can comprehend that people know different sets of knowledge than me, it still freaks me out somewhat when they show it.
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14:29 nothingmuch kolibrie: ping
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14:44 svnbot6 r11057 | sanug++ | Testing html markup to allow browser to open image maps
15:16 pasteling "chromatic" at 198.37.25.238 pasted "No IRC; where is the hacking this morning?" (1 line, 1B) at http://sial.org/pbot/18137
15:16 obra hah
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15:24 gaal xerox: where?
15:25 xerox Duh, nevermind, it was just a mismatched paren in your last comment or something.
15:25 svnbot6 r11058 | sanug++ | did an svn propedit to add svn:mime-type with text/html; charset=UTF-8 - audreyt had this on her file in pugs/docs/01*.html
15:28 gaal ahhh, heh
15:30 spinclad xerox too.  I fix:  :)  )
15:34 svnbot6 r11059 | sanug++ | modified svn types on Tree diagrams with Steve Little
15:37 marcus_ kolibrie: nothingmuch wants to know what you wanted him to photograph.
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17:08 putter audreyt: ping?
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17:19 marcus_ log bot?
17:21 putter marcus_: http://colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6
17:21 lambdabot Title: "#perl6 irc log"
17:22 marcus_ putter: right, we found them :)
17:22 svnbot6 r11060 | fglock++ | v6.pm - lexer fix; parse & emit '...' and ':a<b>';
17:22 svnbot6 r11060 | fglock++ | - t\11-capture.t compiles, but don't run yet;
17:22 svnbot6 r11060 | fglock++ | - runtime autoboxing
17:24 fglock clkao: ":a<b>" was a problem with selecting the longest token - fixed
17:34 svnbot6 r11061 | fglock++ | v6.pm - checks if there is a package name
17:36 putter &
17:40 fglock audreyt: in deploy.xul "Constraints" - do you mean 'or fail' ?  'err' checks if defined(), right?
17:47 lisppaste3 joined perl6
17:49 TreyHarris for reference, one cannot trust the value of $_ at the pugs command line :-)
17:50 TreyHarris try "my $y = 3\n say $_\n say $_" and you'll see what I mean
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17:53 TimToady obviously something setting $_ to the previous result
17:54 TimToady maybe it's a feechure.
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17:57 fglock ?eval "abc".ref
17:57 evalbot_10997 is now known as evalbot_11061
17:57 evalbot_11061 ::Str
17:59 fglock ?eval "aaaa".ref eq Str
17:59 evalbot_11061 Bool::True
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18:08 kolibrie nothingmuch: pong
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18:31 nothingmuch kolibrie: what picture did you want me to take?
18:38 kolibrie nothingmuch: coming from my room on the third floor, in the stairwell, I thought the view of the tunnel for the elevated train was kind of cool
18:39 nothingmuch ah
18:39 kolibrie but I forgot to take a picture on my way out
18:39 nothingmuch so this is the top of the student center
18:39 nothingmuch out of your window?
18:39 kolibrie no, just in the stairwell, on level three
18:40 nothingmuch so where is the tunnel?
18:40 nothingmuch your window == stairwell window you are referring to
18:40 kolibrie yes, the one on top of the student union
18:40 nothingmuch ah
18:40 nothingmuch okay
18:41 kolibrie of course, if you can't get it, it's okay.
18:42 kolibrie nothingmuch: how was your birthday party?
18:44 nothingmuch kolibrie: pretty fun
18:44 nothingmuch marcus got me very drunk
18:44 nothingmuch and quite sick (which is bad, but memorably funny)
18:44 nothingmuch yesterday i was zoned out
18:44 nothingmuch and I still feel kinda crummy today
18:44 nothingmuch lesson learned - do not consult vikings for drinking advice, and do not listen to them if they offer it voluntarily
18:46 nothingmuch joined perl6
18:47 kolibrie I'm always wary of advice given voluntarily
18:47 fglock joined perl6
18:48 TreyHarris nothingmuch: happy birthday!
18:48 TreyHarris belatedly
18:48 nothingmuch TreyHarris: thank you =)
18:49 TreyHarris nothingmuch: what year was it?
18:49 nothingmuch 21
18:49 TreyHarris ah, a big one, at least here in the US
18:49 TreyHarris congrats
18:53 spinclad felicitous annuadversions, nuffin!
18:54 spinclad HAPY BRFDY!
18:55 nothingmuch TreyHarris: yeah, i was abused on account of that
18:55 nothingmuch they took me out
18:55 nothingmuch and wouldn't let me pay
18:55 nothingmuch and made me drink far more than I should have =)
18:56 TreyHarris well, at least you're not in college here as you turn 21... there's a rather dangerous tradition of going to a bar immediately after midnight the morning one turns 21 and forcing the drinking of 21 drinks before last call (usually 2-3 hours later)
18:57 spinclad yow
18:57 spinclad that could kill
18:57 TreyHarris yes.
18:59 nothingmuch yeah
18:59 nothingmuch we didn't go that far
18:59 TreyHarris there are actually states that have changed the laws so that the drinking age is 6am after you turn 21 for that reason.  it shows that human beings are more comfortable with absolute values than relative ones... or something.
19:01 nothingmuch heh
19:01 nothingmuch the whole US drinking law stuff is pretty stupid
19:01 nothingmuch i mean, few people actually refrain from drinking before
19:01 nothingmuch so they're not really effective
19:01 nothingmuch and those that wait for it are at a risk
19:02 nothingmuch because 21 shots is much more dangerous when you're not even used to drinking
19:04 * kolibrie has never had a drink
19:04 TreyHarris kolibrie: how old are you?
19:04 kolibrie 32
19:04 theorbtwo I don't think people who actually don't drink before they are 21 are likely to do that 21 shots thing.
19:05 TreyHarris theorbtwo: and i don't think people who have drunk regularly and moderately since they were very young would, either :-)
19:05 fglock hi!
19:06 spinclad hey fglock
19:06 theorbtwo True enough.
19:08 * kolibrie returns to scraping old paint on his house &
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19:15 fglock merlyn: hi!
19:15 merlyn hey
19:16 merlyn got pugs -e 'say "Hello"' working again
19:16 merlyn I'd broken it with a reset of my darwinports trashing
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19:23 TreyHarris hmm.  can i get pugs to read stdin as it comes in?  =<> doesn't appear to read anything until I close stdin.
19:24 * gaal makes obvious smelly joke at "happy barfday" pun
19:24 gaal (rehi)
19:30 nothingmuch erhoo
19:32 merlyn TreyHarris - are you doing this in a scalar context?
19:33 TreyHarris merlyn: "for =<> -> $x { say $x }"
19:34 merlyn that's a foreach loop
19:34 merlyn list context
19:34 merlyn reads all at once
19:34 merlyn I think
19:34 merlyn while =<> { say $_ }
19:35 merlyn oops... that doesn't put the var anywhere
19:36 gaal there's a chance that that's lazy, so the file isn't read all into memory
19:36 TreyHarris huh.  well, "while my $x = =<>" works just fine.  but audrey changed my example of that in the perl 6 wikipedia entry to "for =<>"
19:36 TreyHarris so i thought that was equivalent :-)
19:37 gaal on the other hand slurp was recently made eager, because otherwise $data = slurp $file; close $file may perform the close before wverything was read
19:37 merlyn Well, it's the difference betrween while (<>) and foreach (<>) in perl5
19:37 merlyn in p5, the latter is in list context
19:37 merlyn has to read the entire pile first
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19:37 MenTaLguY hello
19:37 merlyn the former is in scalar context
19:37 TreyHarris right, but isn't it lazy list context?
19:37 merlyn maybe not implemented yet though
19:37 merlyn design != implementation
19:37 MenTaLguY I was wondering if there was a description of the semantics of maybe {} available?
19:38 gaal true, but there are lazy lists in perl 6 so even if it is a list it's not necesarily computed all in advance.
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19:38 pmurias hi all
19:38 MenTaLguY (c.f. pugs/examples/concurrency/stm-retry-with.pl)
19:38 pmurias nothinmuch: did you think of integrating Perl::Generate with quasiquoting?
19:39 gaal MenTaLguY: try docs/Perl6/Spec/Concurrency.pod
19:39 gaal hmm, no, it isn't in there yet.
19:39 pmurias s/nothinmuch/nothingmuch/
19:40 TreyHarris yes, looks like lazy lists aren't there yet.  i just sent pugs into an infinite loop by doing for 1...
19:40 gaal MenTaLguY: then again I have no idea what sync{} and maybe{} are supposed to mean
19:40 MenTaLguY gall: excellent, thanks
19:40 MenTaLguY er, hrm
19:41 MenTaLguY darn
19:41 TreyHarris whoops, and i really should've quit pugs *before* reporting that here... i'm lucky i got my computer back it was thrashing so badly :-)
19:41 MenTaLguY sync basically wraps the enclosed code in a transaction
19:41 MenTaLguY behaves like calling an 'is atomic' Code
19:42 merlyn is nuclear
19:42 MenTaLguY maybe {} blocks are tried until one doesn't call resync
19:43 MenTaLguY but what I'm curious about is how that interacts with scoping and so forth
19:43 MenTaLguY and how it works with composition
19:44 MenTaLguY if someone could direct me where the best place to look in the pugs source would be, that would be nice
19:45 gaal MenTaLguY: that would probably be Pugs.Prim:289 etc.
19:46 MenTaLguY ah, what directory?
19:46 gaal hey, interesting technique there, generating a symbol just for that block
19:46 gaal src/Pugs/Prim.hs
19:46 gaal see also line 575 (op1 "Code::retry_with")
19:47 gaal I don't see sync{} at all implemented
19:47 gaal nor maybe {}
19:48 MenTaLguY nor I
19:48 TimToady it's just new syntax for old.
19:48 TimToady sync was atomically
19:48 TimToady resync was retry
19:49 MenTaLguY hmm, I don't think maybe {} corresponds exactly to anything in the old syntax, though...
19:49 MenTaLguY I certainly recognized sync and resync
19:49 TimToady maybe { ... } maybe {...} was {...}.retry_with{...}
19:49 TimToady that is, Haskell's orElse
19:49 MenTaLguY right
19:49 TimToady so it should compose fine
19:49 MenTaLguY well, here's the thing
19:50 MenTaLguY how are the two maybe blocks alternated?
19:50 TimToady round robin, I'm given to understand
19:50 MenTaLguY aha
19:50 MenTaLguY so if a maybe block retries it retries the whole transaction?
19:50 TimToady correct
19:51 MenTaLguY (and sets a flag not to try that maybe the next time around)
19:51 MenTaLguY (?)
19:51 TimToady that's why I was trying to find a correspondence between sync and resync
19:51 MenTaLguY hrm
19:51 TreyHarris TimToady: can you settle the earlier question?  =<> will be lazily evaluated eventually, right?  so while (<>) becomes for =<>, right?
19:51 MenTaLguY I'm still not clear on maybe {}'s semantics
19:52 MenTaLguY it's certainly different than orElse if it retries the whole transaction
19:52 MenTaLguY Haskell's orElse establishes a nested transaction for the lhs
19:52 MenTaLguY eh well
19:52 MenTaLguY what time is audrey usually on (and awake)?
19:52 TimToady hard to say now--she's presumably on an airplane to Boston.
19:53 MenTaLguY ah, k
19:53 TimToady TreyHarris: that's the intent.
19:54 MenTaLguY bbl
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19:54 TimToady though it's possible that =<> is going to change to =* or some such, now that we have the Whatever type.
19:54 TreyHarris TimToady: ok, thanks.  for some reason i thought lazy lists were already in pugs, so i was surprised when it didn't work
19:54 TimToady =<> was really a kludgey special case.
19:54 TimToady yeah, that's a major suckage at the moment
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20:46 MenTaLguY back
20:51 MenTaLguY I guess to condense my earlier question, if I understand correctly:
20:52 MenTaLguY { maybe {...} maybe {...} } ; { maybe {...} maybe {...} }
20:52 MenTaLguY is equivalent to:
20:52 MenTaLguY {...}.orElse {...} ; {...}.orElse {...}
20:52 MenTaLguY I'm curious how that would work
20:59 TimToady I would imagine that two independent roundrobins in the same transaction would need to try (eventually) the cross product of all the possibilities.
20:59 TimToady not sure how that would be implemented, or how it composes though.
21:04 TimToady but maybe doesn't autowrap itself in a transaction in the current syntax.  That's explicit with sync.  If we violate composability of maybe inside that, then it can be an error.
21:04 TimToady but I'd rather have the atomic scope explicit.
21:09 MenTaLguY fair enough
21:10 MenTaLguY if sync { maybe { ... } ; maybe { ... } } ; sync { ...e tc ... } is required that makes sense
21:10 TimToady my earlier remark was a misread of your example.
21:11 TimToady that's more like
21:11 TimToady sync { maybe { ... } ; maybe { ... }; OTHERSTUFF; maybe { ... } ; maybe { ... } }
21:12 MenTaLguY hmm
21:12 TimToady that is, what if the maybes aren't contiguous within a particular sync
21:12 MenTaLguY right.
21:12 TimToady are they separate roundrobins that do a search for a solution
21:12 TimToady like /(a|b)(c|d)/
21:13 TimToady only they just keep cycling instead of failing at the end
21:15 TimToady actually, I think the contiguous maybes aren't allowed to have ; between.
21:15 TimToady it would be like saying if 1 { 123 }; else { 456 }
21:16 MenTaLguY aha
21:16 MenTaLguY then that answers my question I guess
21:16 MenTaLguY contiguous maybes are grammatically a single statement
21:16 TimToady yes
21:17 MenTaLguY okay, no problem then
21:17 TimToady good.  this is something I'm not a complete expert on...
21:18 TimToady I'm just the user interface guy... :)
21:21 gaal is there a linux program that can display .graffle files?
21:25 MenTaLguY I've never been able to find one, no.
21:25 nothingmuch gaal: i can reexport as $foo for you
21:28 gaal nothingmuch: thanks, just want to look at `find docs -name \*ffle`...
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21:50 svnbot6 r11062 | fglock++ | v6.pm - unmatched '}' now finishes the expression parser, allowing the migration of Yapp statements to plain Rule
21:50 svnbot6 r11062 | fglock++ | - t\10-moose1.t is now broken - awaits for new statements parser
21:50 Debolaz joined perl6
21:54 fglock recursive calls between Perl6 and Rule compilers should now be possible (p5 backend)
21:55 fglock also, terms can have Perl6 inside
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22:57 svnbot6 r11063 | clkao++ | pull from perl5/PC-P6.
23:21 svnbot6 r11064 | clkao++ | * Re-enable the : prefix for named signatures.
23:21 svnbot6 r11064 | clkao++ | * Hard code some builtins that we don't use data::bind callconv.
23:38 MenTaLguY left perl6
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23:54 svnbot6 r11065 | clkao++ | :$infix<~~> and update TODO.

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